X-Ray Analysis: Nasty Enermax Slime in New Threadripper Liqtech II Coolers
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- Опубликовано: 27 фев 2020
- Enermax said it fixed its AMD Threadripper liquid coolers with the Liqtech II. We sent them off for X-Ray spectrometry and more, and it appears Liqtech II is also impacted.
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Watch our original failure analysis video of the Enermax Liqtech I closed-loop liquid coolers here: • Something Growing in T...
If you're experiencing an Enermax Liqtech liquid cooler overheating on a Threadripper CPU, it's probably because of what we've found here. Enermax "fixed" the issue with its Liqtech II line of closed-loop liquid coolers for AMD Threadripper CPUs, but we've found gunk even in the newer Liqtech II coolers and coldplates. The company also told us that it would pay for shipping both ways to repair or replace the Liqtech I units, but we've heard from many of our viewers that this hasn't been true.
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Host, Editorial: Steve Burke
Video: Keegan Gallick, Andrew Coleman, Josh Svoboda
Cooler Disassembly: Jake Henderson 
Игры
Find our other coverage of Enermax's nasty liquid cooler problem here: ruclips.net/video/nttKqzQiZEo/видео.html
Chinese water inside.
The high pH isnt all that surprising and most likely intentional. I'll try posting in the discord when I get the chance but to get into it a little bit there are diagrams which identify under what conditions metal will corrode these are known as pourbaix diagrams. These are used to determine under what combination of pH and electric/chemical potential you will see corrosion. In most cases..... 7-8 pH stabilizes metal vs their oxides. This goes both way however since if you already have oxide present this will begin to revert potentially forming precipitates in the process. This process is commonly used to remove rust and corrosion on copper and iron by immersion in a solution of lye (12-14 pH).
XRF, particularity XRF done in Air is pretty ineffective at identifying elements starting around Ca and pretty much useless at finding elements smaller than Al. If interested in the liquid and whats in it, FTIR would be much more interesting since your probably interested in whether or not you have some sort of organic (meaning carbon/oxygen/hydrogen containing compound not biological). Where I work when we had concerns about "gunk" for lack of a better term this was always the go to as 90% of the time the problem is some sort of organic whether it be left over cleaner, flux, oil or other organic (we even have spectra of snot, dont ask......). FTIR is very effective at identifying individual compounds as its spectra reflects types of bonds present, where as XRF only gives you elemental composition.
At the end of the day I lean slightly towards hard water being used with the coolant (The anti corrosion + biocide concentrate) and the gunk is just various silicates that precipitated.
As another note I think a vacuum problem would result in a real corrosion and the cold plate would look seriously deteriorated. If its the gasket FTIR could tell you whether gunk spectra looks similar to the gasket identifying them as similar compound/material .......
Flux would have been used during manufacture of the radiator and if it didnt get cleaned out effectively it would probably be problematic. I'm not sure what kind is used for aluminum, however it should be possible to link the gunk to that compound via FTIR/maybe XRF/EDXS or even XRD if you know what you're looking for......
Well Enermax does not charge you thats right, but UPS will. i dont know if saying not charging implies that they are paying for it.
salt spray testing is not a valid stand-in for simulating galvanic corrosion.
Regardless of the subject matter.... the effort put into this investigation is truly above and beyond for RUclips. The old-school hardware blogs should be trembling in their boots after watching such high quality content.
meanwhile Tom's Hardware thinks you can measure VRM temp with an IR gun.
Yeah the GN team takes it to the next level
RUclips used to be for five minute bits of fun.
Now I have to learn basic biological-chemistry.
I hate it and I love it.
@@Interrobang212 JUST BUY IT!
@@Interrobang212 The part of Tom's Hardware that ran cooler tests and a lot of other in-depth tech analysis in the past was their German subsidiary. It no longer wanted to be associated with that whole catastrophe and is now an independent publication called Igor's Lab.
Was literally just about to buy this cooler, and thought "wait, didn't Steve say something about this cooler" Thank god I came back!!
litteral hardware jesus
No. No, you weren't.
@@collinblack9605 Yes. Yes, he was.
"The tests were done by a viewer we can only identify as Mr Farenheit"
Translation: Used the spectrometer at his workplace without his boss finding out.
Thank you so much Mr Farenheit! May your workplace shenanigans never be found out!
XD Running some basic... unsanctioned tests is more common than people might think.
G jobs are best jobs
@@Olivia-W I learned this when my wife started working at a place that manufactures Xafs spectrometers. They all gotta get tested before they ship!
Shhhhhh. DADT (don’t ask don’t tell) I “borrowed” some time from one of my teams rendering farms for a night to do some unsanctioned sims, think my team wasn’t too thrilled 🤷♂️
Turns out Mr Farenheit is the boss
11:24
"...check attached document for reference."
"They didn't attach one."
LOL
And he didn't request it after that?
MEIRL every time I try to send someone an attachment
Some notes:
Your meter cannot accurately display pH values for distilled water using your Apera equipment. Special equipment is needed for this, as ion concentration is very low.
You mentioned calibrating your equipment with pH 7 and 4 buffers, but then you measured solutions all in alkaline range (>7). You needed to use the pH 7 and 10.01 buffers for accurate calibration of alkaline solutions.
If you believe the coolant is contaminated with salts which are acting as a catalyst for the corrosion, you can use the appropriate selective ion electrode (eg. Na+) to detect the concentration of these.
If I was troubleshooting this product, I might disassemble it into the individual components and submerge pieces of each component in the provided coolant to determine which components were producing the precipitate, using magnetic stirring and heat to speed the reaction.
Presumably you would need to put both the al and cu components in the bath if the coolant is acting like an electrolyte?
Alternatively if they could get a pure sample of the water used as the base of the product from Enermax before any other additives are mixed that should also shed some light on things, hell there could be contaminants in their propylene glycol mixture, not all anti-freeze is made equal, even in the PC market.
Thanks for the additional, fellow chemist.
Most pH meters are fairly accurate today, especially around pH 7. You don't need special equipment, nor is the "ion concentration" at all relevant.
Adding to this as a Water treatment technician specialized in removing industrial metals and debris from water. I second a majority of what was stated above.
As Terry said, you need to have a better meter to properly test this. Personally I use a Hach sension model as an example.
As for the pH. 6.99 - 8.2 are nominal and falls within the bounds for neutral.
Shipped 2 original Liqtech 1 coolers, had to pay shipping for both. First time I was willing to pay the ~$20 to ship, second time I asked for free shipping but they kept arguing against their claim as shown in this video.
I will never EVER buy from this company. You have saved me a deal of annoyance.
They paid shipping when I sent it the AIO to them, but on when they are about to send me the v2 of the AIO, they asked for a payment for "import fees". I didn't get what they were talking about, I asked them to better clarify, but since there was a language barrier, the argument never got to a solution so I paid it. They should invest in customer service. I felt like I was never understood by them
Lol. Why do you need threadripper for Roblox
@@CrypticConsole bruh his job is making videos and streaming so he needs the best type of stuff
@@CrypticConsole Roblox is a very demanding game when it comes to the best of the best games. also shitty optimization is to blame
I like how everyone shipped you the coolers in their original boxes...good to know I'm not the only one that wastes closet space storing all these boxes for PC parts.
If you don't save the boxes just in case are you even really an enthusiast? /S
Guilty lol
I save motherboard and graphics card boxes to resell them after I'm done with them.
My first liqtech 1 cooler died after 4 months... replaced with a corsair thats been cooling better for 2 years now ...
hey me too rocking my hydro 105 4th gen i7 aio. keep it up
Dude... I haven't watched your videos in a LONG time! Fortunately, i'm still subscribed, and can catch up.
My H110i GTX is already 5 years old.
oh word! liqtech didn't fold the thing for you?
oh look its the dude who bullies smaller channels and acts like he is top shit
i almost choked on my food when Steve said "we deposited the white powdery substance from the coolers into zip lock bags. And shipped them with federal mail. Shockingly no one was arrested in the process."
LordIron I was surprised no arrests were made as well.
I lost it at that part, never laughed so hard while watching a tech video
My Mom walked by when Steve said that. She popped her head in when I laughed. If your not subbed before that you should be now.
They probably discovered the "white powdery substance". But it turned out not to be cocaine. So they let it through. Who cares about biological warfare? ;)
More like, "Sounds about right" lmao.
In the near future: "Gamers Nexus tested & aproved" stickers on products
You forget the asterisk after the sentence.
With super small font - "We cannot confirm nor deny any employee of GamerNexus LLC or GamerNexus ever actually involved into the design, manufacturing, testing, etc of said product."
3 products total would be approved. The mod mat, tool kit, and that GPU that looks like a kitten.
@@AB-these-handles-are-stupid lol that's exactly what I was thinking
Original Gamers Nexus Seal of Quality
it's a hell of a lot more meaningful than "look at this esports player you've never heard of who we paid to endorse our product, they're a pro gamer so it must be good"
My computer (Gen 1 Threadripper built Feb 2018 with Enermax cooler) had been running slow and having problems for the last few months. I found the 'something growing in the coolers' video and figured out that my cooler failed MONTHS ago and thats why my CPU was running super hot while idling and sometimes just shutting off. Idled around 70c. I sent an email and enermax said I was outside of the warranty and refused to work with me for a resolution despite this widespread issue. I was outside of warranty because it took me too long to realize this failure since my PC wasn't that old so I wouldn't expect anything to fail so quickly. Never buying Enermax again, horrible support and product. Got the Noctua Air Cooler and it works great
How late were you for the warranty ?
i gotta ask, why didnt you even both to check on your cpu cooler once you noticed your cpu was both running super hot and your computer was literally shutting down?
enermax is shit but you aint the brightest.
@@cancer7636 2 months
@@quantum5661 Because Windows 10 constantly forces updates and my computer runs worse, so I have to restart it to get some performance back. The fans were still running on the AIO, like I said I didn't expect the cooler to fail so fast by turning into gunk. Nothing like this ever happened with other computers I built, sorry that my confidence in a product bred complacency. Don't have to be nasty about it, kid
That's why you always check your temperatures lmao
With full respect to your “qualified to comment” request, I’m not a professional in this area but this kind of build up is quite common in the automotive world with aluminum radiators, and motor parts when non-distilled (tap) water is used. Looks like water quality to me.
Most all if not radiators are Aluminum even the industrial ones are IDK why people are arguing that that Aluminum radiators will cause corrosion even though cars from the 90's even older still use the same radiator from the factory
except those who forget to never change or change the "RIGHT" coolant not tap-water every 3 years and cars are big heat generators unlike CPUs and lasts long time
I have this cooler, I drained it when it was a month old, had a few algae chunks, I mixed up my own coolant with a biocide and anti-corrosive, 1 yr later I swapped the coolant again, had a little calcium build up but no growth. I do think it is the fluid quality.
We have a similar issue in the aquarium keeping community too. Usually with hard water buildup on glass or plastic from water spraying up and drying, leaving the minerals behind on whatever non wet surface that it can find. I have to scrape the crap off every couple of weeks and even then it looks exactly like this stuff does.
I always thought cars should have some method of filtration in the coolant system.
HksF16 galvanic corrosion is an issue, although not one that can’t be overcome. Normally it’s not a issue in cars because the block is either aluminum or cast iron which does not have a corrosive reaction with aluminum, copper plus aluminum CAN be bad, but the key is the fluid, if the fluid does not allow for easy transfer of ions then you slow/stop the corrosion
"Check attached testing report document for reference."
"They didn't attach one..."
Drink came out my nose. Thanks.
that's like when I asked ASRock for new BIOS version for X470 Taichi because they didn't provide official update with AGESA 1.0.0.4 in months
they said "please use attached BIOS to update your board"
there was no attachment either
That means they refused to aknowledge that their liquid may have been the problem or outright knew,and continued to use it and cause problems.And for me,when i first heard about enermax CLC getting gunk,the first thing i though about was metal impurity or mixing metals and not using the right coolant,wich both are done to avoid cost.But thats as far as my one course of chemistry goes in university,i would be more interested to know about that gunk and how come it builds up so fast.Since gen 2 CLC already have the gunk problem,the liquid may include a catalyst for accelerating the gunk buildup in of itself.
This gave me flashbacks to working with Chinese Co-workers.
Source(s): Dude trust me
Enermax Case Study : How to lose trust in a company. And how to cause serious harm to your brand.
Yup not going to buy any of their products after this BS.
I made the mistake of buying the II about 1.5 years ago. It died in 3 months, they refused to fix it, and I will never buy an enermax product again.
Enermax was a "brand"? Just another in a long line of Chinese clone so called "tech" companies.
Exactly, this company is dropping red flags left and right with this entire matter. It's a train wreck. It's strongly suggests to me bad management from the top down. Enermax is absolutely on my do-not-buy list
yup, wont touch this brand, EVER. Kinda like PNY they just no fly zone for me. Asus been borderlining my blacklist, had a laptop literally have it's charger melt into the laptop till the psu broke off, another asus laptop i still have keeps crashing randomly, seems like a lose connection of sorts. i sent it twice for repair before giving up, they fixed the cd player on the laptop, which i never used and never will use, but i mean at least they fixed an issue i didn't list.
I really tend to despise technology "journalism", and the quality thereof; but here I'm legitimately impressed.
Good work Gamers Nexus!
yeah these guys are super professional
Cmoooon Enermax. I actually loved the old Enermax TB Vegas Duo fans! Bring back the old quality you used to have.
Hehe i just swapped my PSU fan with an Enermax Magma Advance. Sure hope that thing will last.
@@DeadNoob451 had those like 10 years ago, and bought a few more a few years later. The new ones were cheaped out and none lasted
The Enermax Liqtech II TR4 version I bought in late 2018 failed in mid 2019. My 2950X constantly reaches 70 Celsius degree when just idling. At that time I thought this might be the same problem as what the first gen had but I can’t conclude, until I saw this video. If you need more evidence or detail about this cooler, I would gladly ship mine to you for free~
I would send them a DM on Twitter.
for free free or for enermax free?
I had the same issue with the Liqtech II TR4 360 I bought in Aug 2018, it began failing when I moved it to my 3960x rig with idle temps of 58 to 68 degrees C.
Torchmanz not a bad idea though~
William Bonk yeah, sometimes mine could reach 70 C while idling... So switched to NZXT Kraken X72, although the contact area between AIO and CPU is smaller... But it works : (
OK masters degree in chemistry here ;) Purely the pH level tells you very little. To get Aluminium Hydroxide to build up actually there is a nice curve that shows its solution in different pH environments. However acidic is much worse and accelerrates the solution. At around 7-7.2 it has a minimum and then goes up again (much slower than on the acidic side) and takes of past 8.1. However the whole process is extremely slow if you stay in a pure H2O environment and the pH is not too extreme. Being slightly alcaline/basic is actually good to balance of any copper ions that might have migrated. However the kicker is what is in there besides H2O. Any Ionic solutions that might act as a catalyst can drastically speed up the build up of aluminium hydroxide and that catalysts can pretty much live at any pH level. Especially several organic compounds and minerals that are commonly found in non-purified water are extremely potent. Even simple hard water can drastically speed up the building and crystalization of compounds. That is why purified water should only be used and a hardness of above 2 degrees on the german hardness scale is extremely bad for any closed loop metal pipes or plates (well most of them anyways, copper and some others are more resistant, but Al is not). So to conclude your evidence is inconclusive, you would need to have your liquid analyzed for the actualy makeup of that watery thing that is in there. Best of course would be to get a sample of a new in store enermax cooler, drain out the liquid and have it analyzed for its mineral and organic compounds. I hope you get my point and I am sorry for any misunderstandings as English is not my native language.
I am fairly well versed in chemistry, but not nearly a masters. So, my question is if mass spec was used on a new unit and an old unit with buildup. Would this give the exact source of the corrosion? Would some other type of spectroscopy help in identification?
I know that most of this is likely from ionic compounds in the liquid, but could this also be caused by then not properly flushing the radiator with an organic liquid to remove any greases or organics leftover during the process of making the radiator?
Thanks!
oh yeah of course
@@NickTrouble Yes you could run the residue through a spectrometer to indicate the composition and in return identify the most likely cause of the buildup. Some organic compounds also leave signatures that can be identified by the use of other methods of physical chemistry such as electron spin resonance spectroscopy, I once did a research with than into the cause of strawberry juice going bad due to a manufacturing process that was suposedly "clean". Now not flushing the radiator can of course also be the cause, depending on how the radiator was manufactured. However for example to my knowledge EKWB uses a inert oil to cool the tools. But it is probably more likely that the water itself is contaminated and the copper (being an excellent catalyst for many reactions) if aiding in the deterioration. That is why you should work super clean and have anti-growth aids in any custom loop, as copper is a really good "breeding ground" for any type of contamination and even distilled water you get at the store will not be 100% pure and your hands not 100% clean.... So long story short, they prolly should have used purer water and a growth inhibitor.
@@Hoshi_Toranaga Copper isnt really a good breeding ground (Its toxic to many organisms and can catalyze some reactions. That is the cause of copper "smell". You dont actually smell the copper but rather (i believe oxidized) compounds from your skin.). Compared to other common materials. I would say plastics or aluminium is likely the the best "breeding ground". Proabably the plastics actually, because they provide a light source to the liquid in many cases with transparent plastics and lighting. Also besides sessile/biofilm forming organisms planktonic organisms are another matter and do not care much about the materials the cooler is made of (as long as it does not leech too many/much toxic compounds) as long as they an energy source/nutrients they can use to grow and multiply.
All in all, use distilled water (minimizing chemical contaminants, minimizing the availability of nutrients) and a small amount of a biocide.
@@ReapingMiner While you're right about copper being fairly toxic to most microorganisms, Hoshi may have been referring to copper's tendency to be active on a galvanic and electrochemical level. The TL;DR of galvanic systems is that if you have any two different metals in a system, there WILL be galvanic interaction and corrosion if there is a medium which can conduct ion exchange. The only way you could prevent this is to have a medium with ZERO suspended ions or minerals in it, like ultrapure water for example. Using this ultrapure water at home still could not achieve a completely isolated system though, as, like Hoshi said, your hands, the air and the cooling loop could never be 100% clean outside of a clean room so there will always be some interaction with either the fluid or the differing metals in the system. This is why the coolant in cars must be replaced periodically and why you CAN'T use 100% distilled water for extended periods of time without causing damage to the engine or cooling system. The antifreeze's primary ingredient, ethylene/propylene glycol doesn't readily degrade and lose its ability, but the pH buffers and corrosion inhibitors in the solution are consumed and must be replaced. When you run out of buffers and inhibitors for the metals in the loop to react with, then you end up in a situation very much like these coolers where the metals begin dissolving and possibly precipitating each other depending on the pH.
Every time you say "Mister Fahrenheit" Queen plays in my head.
This is why I just go with the Noctua NH-D15, I've had a few issues with water cooling so I said screw it.
i originally went with a NH-D15 too but the cooler is so damn big. Getting a Corsair H115i made so much more room in my case, plus allowed the CPU to get fresh cool air instead of huffing on my GPU exhaust.
@@rogers8555 i went water ( nor AIO but custom EKWB) as an enthousiast. Never got one problem with it. You have to change your liquid once a year. I plan to do an upgrade this year.
@@stonedboss4765 I feel your pain. I'm on TR2000 now. My new Threadripper build is mainly being delayed by choice of cooling solution(, and somewhat by wait for TR4000).
Just for your interest, if you think that Noctua NHD15 is huge, trust me, it will be dwarfed by a IBM Power8 heatsink : www.anandtech.com/show/9567/the-power-8-review-challenging-the-intel-xeon-/17 or IBM Power 720 heatsink : filedb.experts-exchange.com/incoming/2017/11_w48/1212932/2017-11-28-11.44.15.jpg (original question about this heatsink here : www.experts-exchange.com/questions/29070748/ibm-power-720-server-how-to-remove-heatsink.html )
@@atavusable i have a custom setup using swiftech parts for about prob ~8 years now. i drained the system and even took the cpu block apart to check for gunk a 2-3 yrs into owning it and there was no buildup at all it was like brand new so i refilled it with more swiftech HydrX coolant and it's been running ever since. every once in a while i top it off with a little distilled water but other than that i haven't had a problem.
bottom line is i don't think it's absolutely necessary to have to flush your system every year if you use a decent trusted coolant. you don't do it in your car every year, do you? (plus it's not really good for the environment) just keep an eye on your temps and know your system.
and i do recommend swiftech stuff they are about as old school as it gets when it comes to liquid cooling and even have kits you can buy. lets keep them alive. i would hate to lose them.
Watercooling only makes sense if you go with a good 360 radiator... All these costly AIOs that have less radiator space then the D15, especially as you can fit the cooler in quite small M-ATX cases.
Your best bet would be to get in contact with some automotive cooling industry experts. They have extensive experience with coolant fallout and have changed formulas constantly throughout the years with different additive packages. If I was to gander, I would say that the PH of >8 and higher is too caustic (basic) for a mix of the metals found in the cooler. You have copper, aluminum and a potential mix of whatever impurities existing in the manufacturing process. Distilled water loops that are refilled properly after a couple years of usage almost never show metallic fallout byproducts; instead biological contamination via growth of organisms is what usually prevents adequate water flow over time if you fail to clean, drain and refill the loop.
Galvanic corrosion would be an issue here if the loop contained an abnormal amount of aluminum hydroxide byproduct that came in to contact with the copper.
I would have to say that with my experience in automotive and industrial heat exchanger's; sub par coolant is accountable for corrosion and fallout basically 99% of the time. Furthermore, almost every AIO that came off my PC older than 3 years had some residual buildup (corsair h100, corsair h80 and a coolermaster pro 120. Mind you, not nearly as bad as the aforementioned enermax, but still some fallout from the coolant. Evidently a superior coolant was used in those loops as they were still functioning.
I am guessing the coolant is proprietary for each AIO manufacture. However most additives packages should be very similar, having being added to a distilled base. In every application of heat exchanger technology in the world; the system is eventually cleaned and flushed and refilled and or treated. How that translates into the consumer PC market: I wouldn't expect my AIO to last more than 5 years under constant cycle use without an eventual failure of the pump due to debris fallout and or the clogging of the cooling passageways of the same aforementioned material.
A more permanent solution would be to use the same base metal in the entirety of the loop. Preferably copper, this would prevent ion exchange and further fallout. However copper radiators are very expensive and would not fit within the current price segment of the market. Although I would venture to say they would perform much better in high load operations as they would be able to transfer heat out of the coolant much more efficiently than aluminum.
I would also redesign the cooling fins as a function of surface area in height and width and favor a raised spaced pin style as opposed to a long slit style. There would be a wider gap between the pins and allow any debris to simply just circulate in the loop as opposed to getting caught in the fins which plagues virtually all AIO's after a few years use. I googled the aforementioned and the closest I could find was something like this:
sep.yimg.com/ay/yhst-39083765508394/enzotech-sapphire-series-scw-rev-a-cpu-waterblock-2.jpg
When I eventually pull the trigger on an open loop cooling system I'm going to use coolant from work. Official replacement is 640k km, or 5 years. Typically it doesn't get replaced unless the truck has had a massive leak, and the insides of the systems tend to look pristine(Unless it has had an oil cooler failure). Cast iron engine block, aluminium radiator, aluminium heater core, copper and brass heat exchanger on the retarder, nickel plated copper oil cooler, as well as steel pipes for moving the coolant about.
Anyway, never seen any sludge, and the coolant is close to the same colour even after it has run it's interval.
I concur completely. Automotive engineers have dealt with this for years and figured it out (as much as possible).
I ordered the LiqFusion 360 AIO for my i9-9900k Intel. Luckily it has a port on the block to "top off" with their included coolant. This is a nice feature and will allow me to do the following:
As soon as I receive it, I will be draining all of the Enermax coolant, flush the system thoroughly and then fill with Prestone 50/50 coolant with Cor-Guard (corrosion inhibitor).
Remove and clean/flush once a year. Should be good to go for years to come.
@@cs2-llc you may want to just do that with a custom cooling solution. There's an argument for no maintenance should be needed for aio's for convenience purposes, but I like the idea. Did you put it into practice?
Hey Tech Jesus. I bought a Liqtech II in late 2018. It died (this issue) in early 2019. I contacted enermax and they wanted me to pay $50 shipping to get a replacement (that would fail just like the other). They refused to refund me.
I bought a $50 cooler master air cooler.
Enermax never even responded to me. Trash company.
Why didnt you try to re fill it your self?
Einfach Yannic because that’s not the value proposition when you purchase an AIO solution.
@@LividCreature yeah but still a better option to fix it than going wit a air cooler...
Einfach Yannic I think the better option would be to return it and get your money back or warrantied. It’s an AIO, it’s not supposed to be opened and refilled, it’s closed loop. Also, isn’t the issue here about a build-up of slime at the copper plate and micro fins? Refilling it doesn’t make sense in this case.
Steve seems like the most genuine of the tech youtubers. He seems like the kind of guy you'd want to have a beer with and discuss the strengths of regular vs sweet potato fries.
These are really interesting videos...
By considering corrosion, it's actually not pH value, but rather conductivity (or resistivity) of the coolant you should really check. And this value can change dramatically with temperature even if it is of the same solution.
And also, there is this loop hole in the salt spray test idea here:
The salt spray test is designed to check corrosion resistance of material that works in normal condition, say 25 Celsius. The idea is to use conductive solution and raised temperature as the rapid aging factors.
But in the case of an AIO, the working temperature is definitely not room temperature. Combined with a conductive solution, it's more like a testing condition of the salt spray test. At this point, 200hr testing is not like an aging process but rather a one month usage to me.
You should really take a closer look into the coolant, Steve.
What I found pretty funny is I was just looking into chemistry to improve the stretch of the Mozarella cheese that I make, and similarly had to brush up on my basic pH knowledge. I laughed when the topic of pH and metals coming out of solution came up. In the case of the cheese for stretch, I needed to drive down the pH with the use of cultures, which drives out the calcium (metal) which glues cheese into crumbly non-stretchy curds... leaving behind the stringy tasty goodness. So it all makes me wonder here if the cooler manufacturer accidentally setup conditions for making a kindof cheese ( out of inedible components) in terms of starting components, temperatures, time and pH, on top of any possible organic culture(s) being in there.
Galvanic corrosion... Slightly acidic pH is enough to serve as an electrolyte... Causing a whole chain reaction of cheesy stuff.. So.... Something like that..
so synthetic cheese?
@@W0ND3RB0Y1 haha, makes sense. Always odd and fun when serendipity teaches me things.
@@Hachiae Was thinking something like that. If not then some similar gelling reaction. Makes me mostly wonder what water they used as the viewer that analysed samples indicated.
@@JasonOfTGA Seems like a big F up on their part anyhow... You don't mix aluminium in loops, at least not by making contact to the liquid.. Ekwb states it on every single product for a reason...
as for my credentials to "type on my keyboard" about this issue, I do work at the University of Wyoming, in a lab studying heart failure and breast cancer as a graduate student. I can speak to the science although not in my direct field of expertise I am more than verse in the chemistry as I use it on a daily basis.
The basicity of the water is of a weird concern as the reaction of question is Al+3HOH=Al(OH)3+H+3 this would actually make the solution acidic as the aluminum is taking 3 hydroxide molecules out of the water leaving only hydrogen in solution as the insoluble Al(OH)3 falls out as a solid precipitate. The addition of polyproline glycol could be the donner of OH instead of the water. This, however, would make the molecule very angry and it would steal H+ from the autoionizing water. This would then leave OH- in solution and make the solution basic and also create a fluid that is not hydrophilic and it would make an organic compound that would dissolve the rubber gasket and also create the gel you were seeing. So this second explanation is what I would bet that powder and gunk are made of. The Al(OH)3 leftover polypropylene glycol molecule that could have reacted in any number of ways with the rubber and various metal surfaces in the loop to make the sludge. This is, however, just a guess as to what the problem would be and heat+time would only help any of these reactions to take place.
I think they meant Al+O2 producing Al2O3 and it reacting with H20 to form Al(OH)3 (there is no production of H+ or OH- during this reactions) that would explain why they were talking about the seal leaking air in (even though I don't really understand how just that would be enough to cause such catastrophic failure)
Hello fellow UW grad. EE here.
I concur that the issue is likely the coolant, and more specifically the anti-freeze mixture. Not all anti-freeze mixture are equal, I have to use a specific type for my car or it will destroy the interior of my radiator. I am willing to bet they are using an anti-freeze mixture that is having a chemical reaction with the aluminum fin stack in the radiator and as you suggested the rubber gasket as well.
Polyproline glycol? Very angry molecule? Creating a fluid that is not hydrophilic? This is a water-based coolant. That'll always be hydrophilic. I think your keyboard credentials should be revoked on this issue.
Years ago: Don't buy Deepcool, they end up failing and leaking.
Today: Don't buy Enermax, you will end up having a slime farm on your burning PC.
just buy a huge ass cooler sinks and shove that noctua A12X25 on it.
@@crazylife1098 I just got a NH-U12A with two of the A12X25s on it. My i7-4770k stays at the self turbo speed no matter what now it is so cool. No way Jose for anything water near my computer.
A captain killed my Taichi, since that, i have not bought any deepcool
@Adolf Hitler Who needs the D15 lmao. U12A for life.
Option 2 here: I never used my v2 unit. v1 failed, 1st RMA v2 was leaking all over upon arrival, 2nd RMA practically had the mounting brackets punctured through the box. I had already purchased another Noctua cooler so the v2 was never used. They didn't offer any free shipment. Shipping cost and it's yours.
Nice work y'all. This didn't affect me personally, but it is always great to know that there is someone looking out for consumers the way that y'all do
Great coverage and testing as always! Thank you for your thoroughness.
I ended up subscribing because of your excellent and rigorous presentation of your data. It's really awesome to see you and Gamers' Nexus using so much science. I think your investigation with the pH was spot on, and I suspect the CLC maker might be using inhibited glycols suited for a different environment than the CLC. Glycols can gradually oxidize in certain systems (such as car engines), and so they're often mixed into a slightly alkaline environment. Perhaps this is what's causing the difference in pH you measured. I don't know if it's appropriate to use a decently inhibited glycol mix in a CLC, and I'm not certain if common inhibitors are compatible with aluminum.
P.S. While it is good practice to bracket a pH measurement with standards, for the purposes of this video, just using a 4 and 7 is fine. I was pleased that you even took the trouble to run a line on it. I don't think I've ever seen our pH meters deviate more than 2% from linearity, but granted, they're very expensive. I saw a few complaints about the solutions potentially not having enough ions to be conductive; this would pretty much only slow down the convergence to stability of the measurement. Also, dissolved CO2 is typically enough to get a reading in a few minutes, even with a less robust meter. I would be more worried about electrode poisons or less than measurable divalents.
Shipping white powder across state lines? Dealers Nexus!
Matt Christie living on the edge.
Beve Sturke, you stand here today charged with trafficking of Aluminium Hydroxide across state lines. How do you plead?
@@drspod "Well, to start with, Your Honour, I want to explain how this came to be. But before that, this testimony is sponsored by..."
They really need someone fluent in written English to review and edit their statements before replying to media outlets. Not only do badly worded letters look unprofessional, they run the risk of causing confusion about their official policies, creating more trouble down the road.
Was thinking the same. Some of the sentences didn't even make sense and had to be interpreted rather than just read.
Pro-Facts Anti-BS I disagree, that mostly just means it’s made over-seas, some excellent quality products don’t even come with a manual. As an aerospace engineer I care about the part doing it’s function (so I prioritize safety and function) whilst my boss is stuck in lala land only caring about the drafting (which isn’t even used to inspect the parts.... we found out the hard way that the machines were horribly far off and they only inspected a standard test piece every day and not the actual parts, so their software was way over-simplifying the geometry). Anyways, he’s the kind that’s more insistent on an installation view being rotated by 2 degrees than parts falling off the plane (which is the reason I will be quitting soon, because I don’t like being left in the dark about these issues that I’ve been signing off for as design engineer for new things using 50+ year old installation specs that the vendors updated a long time ago).
Anyways, his philosophy isn’t that it works well, it’s that it looks pretty on paper. My philosophy is if I don’t really care what the drafting looks like, it needs to serve it’s function on the plane and the drafting is only a guide or tool for the installers (you can make anything look pretty, but that doesn’t mean it’s going to work).
What is even more important:
Any public statement, like this one, is legally binding. So if a company releases an Engrish statement like this, they open them selves up to a shitload of legal trouble.
Any statement that can be/has to be interpreted makes lawyers cream their pants, cause that means a big payday is coming their way.
That confusion is how they keep the business running though. Even if it may be short-term now.
Based on how its written, I imagine this is coming from a Chinese office. You see similar mistakes when communicating with Chinese sellers from Alibaba, Taobao, etc.
I am 29 in this year, and i firstly hearing: the ph level is logarithmic.
Thanks past ~18 years.... you were usefull...
same here but im 28
teachers have one real skill:
Good for you guys. Thanks for all the work to help follow gamers!
25:45 I'd argue that cooler reviews stay relevant for a long time. Like, the NH-D15 is still relevant today, even though it was released in 2014.
I don't think people are searching for reviews of the NH-D15 as often as they were in 2014..
@@shawndiaz7528 Mostly because the two giants NHD15 and DarkRockPro3/4 are so well known by now that people who build PCs regularly know that they can do.
And everyone who got to building PCs recently buy AIOs anyways because reddit says its better.
Ye still can't really compare a Noctua NH-D15 (which is a universal cooler) with a cooler that was specifically made for Threadripper.
@@rako81sna Good point, but I think they made somewhat similar desings for that cpu?
@@Waldherz never trust reddit minions
Just to add to the statistics of some kind. I was also among the people who bought the first Liqtech cooler for a 1950X build. A year later I realized my system started thermal throttling like crazy. Upon research I understood what happened based on many other people with the same issue and so I contacted Enermax. I said that my cooler was suffering from internal corrision just as many others. I got a reply saying that it's not corrosion but they felt sorry and would send me the new Liqtech II cooler as a replacement. Fully free of charge (no way I would've paid anything otherwise). I live in Germany btw. They even mentioned that the new cooler will feature adressable RGB lighting.. which ofc I cared zero about. I asked them if they wanted to have the gunked up other one back for inspection but they said no thanks... just get rid of it. It's been a year now and I'm still checking my thermals occasionaly to see if everything is alright... luckily in my case the cooler is still performing as it did first day I replaced it. Watching this video however I'm now again worried and will be checking thermals more often... or just replace it completely to a new cooler for some peace of mind. Thanks for the investigative in depth work dear GN team.
Wow I see a tech channel without useless next Gen console rumors or leaks with lots of clickbait.
This alone leads me to leave a subscription ✌️
Thanks! My enermax ii 280 has also issues. One of the two fans already broke down after less then two years. I will keep an eye on the pump. Great review guys.
Got it. I won't be buying Enermax. Thanks Tech Jesus.
TechFan Out of interest, i tried to overclock my i7 4790k 2 weeks ago. Back when i build my pc each component was chosen with overclock in mind. So i bought a AIO watercooler for my CPU from enermax. I trier OC my Cpu and the main issue was, beside that the cooling performance wasnt that great, the amount of liquid or the kind of liquid. When the heat went up you could see that after X degrees the cooling lacks behing the heating. So, this got even worse after each more defree ofcourse. I suspect the water couldnt cool down anymore as much as needed and the warm liquid came back to the CPU. And after a second it jumped from like 89 to 99 degrees....
What a shit cooler. It was a expensive one back then.
ps: under normal usage the cooler is fine but i didnt pay a high price for that. I could achieve the same, no, even better, with a cheaper cooler. Its really sad to see that a small oc kills the cooler. Thats not why i bought this AIO cooler..
@@ICEMANZIDANE your comment is almost as broken as the enermax letter
@@ICEMANZIDANE Which cooler did you buy after?
@@ICEMANZIDANE You might have to look at your configuration. What kind of airflow are you getting through the rad? Would remounting the rad in another location increase the airflow? Would changing the fans orientation change temps i.e. going from a pull to a push config. Are the fans in a PWM header? Would adding fans help? And lastly, are you sure the current cooler is correctly sized for the temps you're trying to control?
the 4790k shouldn't be a challenge even for a small 120 Rad, either it's bad contact of IHS and Cooler or some part of the unit doesn't work as expected. Wheter its airflow related, tha pump too slow, water dispersion over time or even some kind of buildup as in the video would have to be investigated. The 4790k is a pretty old part by now and if the cooler was bought with it, my guess is on the cooler being at the end of its lifespan. AIOs do have a limited lifespan shorter than that of aircoolers and the 4790k is a part launched in 2014
I RMA'd my first gen Liqtech in June 2019. I was required to pay for the shipping of my old unit myself. They did ship a new Liqtech II at their cost along with a prepaid label to reship the new unit back to them if needed. I still have the Liqtech II unit in the box unused. I do not trust it. I'm very happy with my Noctua air cooler i had purchased to replace the original Liqtech cooler. I don't trust Enermax whatsoever.
PS thank you Gamers Nexus for your work on this.
That just shows they knew the problem wasn't corrected in the new units. They made you pay for the shipping, but then send you a new one with a prepaid label to return it when it dies. Just wow, the shit companies get away with these days.
So why did you pay $50 for the shipping if you aren’t going to use it? Lol
@@voleNTV Maybe because he changed his mind before or when the Liqtech II arrived?
Great coverage. Very insightful. Thank you for that effort!
Very Informative video. Looking into new cooling solutions for Threadripper.
Hey Steve, I would like to point out that the wording itself is pretty ambiguous. The statement seems to imply that the replacement unit itself will be replaced at no cost. There isn't really any explicit statement saying that shipping will be free, which can be tricky for those that want to use that statement as evidence.
Furthermore, going by their statement on 14:18 about "doing the global warranty process" and checking the Enermax support site seems to support this. Enermax charges for shipping for defective and DOA products under warranty. They don't even service products that are out of warranty. They also claim that they reserve the right to "claim for shipping fees" for any RMA products, which is why a lot of people trying to return their coolers are facing shipping cost that they have to pay out of pocket. Additionally, if you need to cross ship a product, they also charge a "non-refundable $20 fee" as well as the cost of the replacement product until you return the original product. Whether this is standard practice or not, I'm not sure since I have very little experience working directly with the manufacturer and usually just get an exchange from Amazon or Micro Center the few times something has gone wrong.
www.enermaxusa.com/support.php
"Enermax charges for shipping for defective and DOA products under warranty."
Fuck Enermax then. That policy is never acceptable.
Steve said “you can send this video as a proof to your credit card company while doing a chargeback”. My point is: company’s TOS can claim whatever company wants, but the CC simply doesn’t care. They will simply revert the transaction and refund the customer. This may not apply to every state, as I am no lawyer.
From a legal view point they say that they will not charge for the replacement unit it self,but say nothing about shipping.
They will have to follow up with the gift though - but a gift can be anything,it could be an extra bracket or even a promotion code for 1% off on something somewhere.
In the second statement they say that "Enermax will not charge any cost",It means that someone else can charge the customer - The shipping company for example.
Seems like their lawyers had a look before each statement was sent and revised each one - It's a common practice.
I'm glad I'm running a custom cooling setup, been running the same hardware 4+ year with plain distilled water + few ounces of dawn dish soap with no issue or ever growth, drain and change it every 2 years thus far with no issues, still running the same D5 pump from 4+ years ago...
after watching the details put into this research, you totally earned my sub
Thank you for your continued efforts to keep consumers safe and informed. Your information and reporting is extremely valuable and greatly appreciated.
Enermax won't charge you for shipping, but UPS will. :p
12:52 I believe he's referring to the product cost itself and not the related shipping cost for return. Kinda sneaky the way he dances with these answers.
14:08 Later on he states "...Enermax will not 'charge' any cost", at the point of return technically its the shipping company inflicting the cost not Enermax.
Thanks for the heads up Steve appreciate it as always.
Every time I've seen that blue/green + white residue in 18 years open loop cooling, it's come from T A P water left in a loop over time.
/Case closed
1:32 Tossing the phone across the office gave me anxiety
Don't worry it was an iPhone
@@slickgiraffe6650 one that broke 3 years ago
@@slickgiraffe6650 Lol, no, no one in this office uses those.
@@GamersNexus So you're throwing around GOOD phones?
@@slickgiraffe6650 Phones are for chumps, in my opinion. Real people use computers for everything.
There's a reason why most of 8kun's userbase hasn't a cellphone...
Makes me glad I just switched back to an air cooler (which surprisingly performs much better than the old liquid cooler ever did)! I know most liquid coolers use opaque rubber tubing, but maybe clear plastic tubing should be used instead so problems like this could be detected more easily by the customers? Oh well, I guess these companies wouldn't want that...
Opaque tubing is made of a material that is more resistant to permeation, and protects the liquid from UV breakdown. Those tubes are the reason why those liquids don't need to be replaced and can run several years on end, unlike open, clear-tubing loops.
Out of interest, i tried to overclock my i7 4790k 2 weeks ago. Back when i build my pc each component was chosen with overclock in mind. So i bought a AIO watercooler for my CPU from enermax. I trier OC my Cpu and the main issue was, beside that the cooling performance wasnt that great, the amount of liquid or the kind of liquid. When the heat went up you could see that after X degrees the cooling lacks behing the heating. So, this got even worse after each more defree ofcourse. I suspect the water couldnt cool down anymore as much as needed and the warm liquid came back to the CPU. And after a second it jumped from like 89 to 99 degrees....
What a shit cooler. It was a expensive one back then.
ps: under normal usage the cooler is fine but i didnt pay a high price for that. I could achieve the same, no, even better, with a cheaper cooler. Its really sad to see that a small oc kills the cooler. Thats not why i bought this AIO cooler..
@@ICEMANZIDANE I lost my last system when the cheap liquid cooler that the original system integrator put in failed after 3 years and leaked all over my motherboard and CPU socket - totally wrecking it. By then I couldn't find any directly compatible spare parts, so rebuilt it with a new motherboard, upgraded memory, and an i7-5820k CPU (6 cores/12 threads, 140w TDP) - which was a slightly faster clock speed than my earlier CPU had been.
At that time I put in a brand name liquid cooler that normally kept the average core temperatures at about 40C to 45C for nominal workloads, maxing out at about 65C for "100% CPU for over an hour" video rendering workloads.
After running with the new liquid cooler for 3 years, I eventually got concerned that as it got older, it may fail like the last one did - so made the decision to replace it with an air cooler even though I didn't expect that to perform as well. Boy was I surprised when the Noctua NH-D15 I replaced it with performed much better - keeping the normal and gaming workload temperatures consistently below 40C and the maxed out "100%" workload temperatures always averaging less than 51C!
While the NH-D15 is probably overkill for my current CPU, at least now I don't have to worry about any future liquid coolant leaks wrecking my whole system once again - as I'm getting even better cooling. I've never seen the need to overclock since i can run any game I have at high graphics settings very well without it. The big lesson I learned is that air coolers are a lot better than they used to be!
@@warp00009 Remember when 6 cores was considered incredible? I do :)
Your air cooler performs better? You must have had a gunked up enermax cooler
Liqtech ii owner here. Got mine a little before the first issues with the liqtech 1 issues came out with the launch of the 2950x. Immediately changed out my fluid with some distilled water with a biocide and have changed the fluid every 6 months or so since and continued use of the cooler with a 3960x. The cooler is so good for the chip size I've just done this maintenance with my 2700x water loop (now 3950x loop). Not so bad as the fill ports are easy to use and it's a hassle, but to me worth it for the performance. If I had to do it over again, I wouldn't get the cooler but it's a sunk cost and as I said I like the performance. There have been other tr4 sized cold plates on aios, but none that have micro fin sections as large or truly full coverage cold plates like this one. I wish another manufacturer would make one that's comparable as I don't want a full water loop on this system as it needs quicker maintenance than my am4 build.
Many thanks for looking into that problem
Me: watching Gn in between preperations for an Analytical chemistry exam.
Gn: here's some spectrometry lul
I too would enjoy some Liquid cooled wet water
Thanks for being our voice. I had to replace the first model because of a failed pump and it cost me $46.44 to ship it to enermax. They refused to cover the shipping cost dispite me telling them this is a widely know issue with it.
I had to get the second model because there was nothing else in the market for the threadripper.
Thankfully I've never had anything like this happen with my air coolers. Guess I've just been lucky!
Once upon a slime, Enermax created the Liqtech II
Chemical lab technician here, also studied chemistry 3 years at university. If I may quote from this link: www.researchgate.net/publication/251555169_Analysis_and_the_understanding_of_fluoride_removal_mechanisms_by_an_electrocoagulationflotation_ECF_process#pf2
"[...]The solubility of aluminum in equilibrium with solid phase Al(OH)3 depends on the surrounding pH. At pH between 5 and 6, the
predominant hydrolysis products are found to be Al(OH)2+ and Al(OH)2+. The solid Al(OH)3 is most prevalent in pH range of 5-8 [...]". To unpack that statement: At the measured pH of the liquid aluminium hydroxide is mostly unsoluble and forms a white powder - which would coincide with the powder you send for analysis. But looking at the spectra you presented that could not be it, because the white powder did not contain any aluminium whatsoever - even in trace amounts it seems. The other culprit could well be manganese hydroxide. To quote this wikipedia article:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganese(II)_hydroxide
"Manganese(II) hydroxide precipitates as a solid when an alkali metal hydroxide is added to an aqueous solution of Mn2+ salt." That would suggest to me that at higher pH values, manganese could be the main culprit here - especially if you look at how manganese precipitate looks, which is much more... should I say goo-like than the powdery substance aluminium hydroxide forms. Combine that with what Mr. Fahrenheit said about "Cast Manganese Bronze" I would say it is likely somehow manganese is going into solution for one reason or the other and is than building up over time as (mostly unsoluble) manganese hydroxide. I also concur Mr. Fahrenheit's statement that looking at unused or fresh coolant from one of this coolers to see how acidity and makeup differs from old liquid would be very interesting. Feel free to message me if you have any follow up questions regarding this topic.
Really interesting analysis, thanks for the great work you do!
but the manganese is can also be found in tap water at a concentration (MAC) of 0.12 mg/L (120 µg/L), those are the safe number i agree with Steve that if they used a contaminated source of water the manganese could be at an higher concentration and could cause in fact the white powder from the heat cycle receive at the cold plate.
If they're talking about "air in the liquid" - are they referring to dissolved air? If so, did they boil/heat the water to drive out that air before putting it through a vacuum process (that will point to poor QA).
There's also the issue of electrolysis. Copper and aluminium are not going to be happy bedfellows in the presence of an ionic liquid. Is the manganese bronze coming from pipes/joints?
Correct me if i am wrong, isn't manganese hydroxide brown in color? (its been years since i've touched chemistry), the white powder might be of zinc precipitates. And also the green goo like substance might be a precipitate of iron 2 since any presence of zinc ions can reduce iron 3 to iron 2 which gives off that greenish color. Based on the results that showed that there was presence of zinc and iron in the powder
@@sworter999 Pure Mn(OH)2 is white, MnO is brown. Zinc doesn't do much redox chemistry as it's quite happy in its +2 state. Fe(II) as the cause of the green is a possibility. If it turned brown upon exposure to air, it would support that as Fe(II) will turn to Fe(III) quite readily.
First and foremost thank you so much for these videos. I bought a LiqTech 1 back in 1/2018 and of course mine starts failing two weeks ago. At first I had no idea what it was wrong as my PC was just randomly shutting off. I at first thought it was PSU related so I sent my HX1000 back for a RMA as well as scrubbed my GPU drivers due to getting a new 2070. It kept having issues after I installed a evga 850 PSU while I was waiting for my Hx1000 to come back. I noticed the CPUs temp at idle was sitting at 85-90C and felt this was alarming. I googled AMD 1900x overheating and immediately found your previous video. I pulled off my Enermax Liqtech1 cooler and opened up the plugs on the side of the pump and smelt that "old food court" smell you talked about. I said screw this company and threw out the Cooler and bought a Noctua fan. I'll never use Enermax again and hate that I spent over 100 bucks for a POS that almost killed CPU/Mobo.
Steve you have so much knowledge everytime i watch a video of yours i learn new stuff you are like a encyclopedia for me u are hardware surgeon i hope i will become as good as you ❤️
He's the Tech Jesus
air cooled master race
Indeed bro. Water cooling scares me.
my leige
Cheap metal cores in air cool can go. But is very rare due to cheap thermal gunk
Imagine the temps in server farms if that were actually true....
@@bepbep7418 most server racks have jet engine like air coolers
"That's about it in our refresher in middle school chemistry..." 😂
"...because we needed it too."
So I sent my cooler back to get a newer version when mine started to have issues. They told me to send it back through ups with a tracking code provided. About 3 weeks later I get a package in, a good size one. Open up the top box which contain the newer cooler and then open up the next one which contained a 16" giant red dragon cock dildo. It's a very odd unboxing...
Be careful. Enermax dildos can accumulate gunk and get blocked. Also they leak.
@@ericmollison2760 im wondering if battery acid ever leaked from one and don't want to imagine what would happen if it did.
@@jimbobbyrnes Why are you making a serious response to my stupid sex joke? I just thought it was hilarious to think of enermax making dildos. Although I think this is the "gift" that was mentioned, although god knows how they picked it.
shut up, NO WAY 😂😂
Hey, stoked to see my 280 up there as a test subject. That said, Enermax did send a replacement and paid shipping both ways on mine (even though I kept it initially to take it apart and see what's wrong). No real effort getting them to do that, so it sucks to hear others had to pay.
"There is really no room for error in interpretation of that sentence." I have to disagree. You asked them if customers have to pay for shipping. Their response did not include any mention of shipping charges. Only that the customers don't have to pay for a new cooler replacement. In other words, that statement is useless because they are just stating the obvious. And the free gift might just be an Enermax poster. :P
I was thinking this. Their exact statement is worded so that it seems likes they won't charge for shipping, but at no point does it explicitly say "free shipping" or "no-cost shipping". It seems to be that they are saying that they won't charge to replace the units themselves, which is the whole fucking point of returning a defective product. Even the following statement says they "will not charge any cost", which they could argue is for the replacement unit only and claim that shipping is seperate. You don't expect to have to pay to replace a product that should have worked in the first place.
Exactly my thoughts!
Yes, I agree. You would pay the shipping cost to the postal office and not to Enermax. So they can say they "do not charge customers" without any issues.
Though, if the "free gift" is of equal value than the shipping costs, it may not be even be an issue for you.
agreed. no cost for enermax doesnt include no shipping from sender. marketing people usually do misleading sentences and you have to carefully read the meaning of sentences.
Yes, the way that statement is worded does not include covering shipping charges to the company. As it reads this is along the lines of "we won't charge you...". It's misleading misdirection at worst, translation/internal issues at best (or both). It's very easy to imagine higher ups (the real ones) seeing an obviously widespread failure of a niche-within-a-niche product and simply ordering management to stem the bleeding - right now. Taking a bath on a product in this price range would mean that additional shipping charges on top of their own logistics cost would push that red % significantly higher per unit. I'm sure there have been very unpleasant meetings about the whole situation.
In any case they clearly fucked up. If you got boned sorry to hear it and I hope you get some sort of resolution. If you got double boned with the shipping you have every right to fight for it. But personally (and I do mean personally, this isnt even the correct viewpoint) I wouldn't waste more than 10 minutes trying to get it back. Hassling them right back is what they deserve but it won't make a difference to the situation, the thin ice for those involved is long broken by now. This is in contrast to most other times where inserting that sort of feedback is just what's needed to a company.
That being said, it *is* important for outlets like GamersNexus to bring light to it by nature of what media is.
I was considering for a new build to get an AIO, but this scared me away. I'll instead get, budget permitting, top of the line air cooling, maybe Noctua fans.
i've had an aio and multiple good air coolers, and i would just say an air cooler is just plain better, less points of failure, u wont be listening to a noisy pump after a year or something like that. and i mean if ur fan on ur air cooler starts to break it's a lot cheaper to replace than a noisy pump. i worried often with the aio, mostly due to noises, never had performance issues. now with my hyper 212 (cooling 6700K)and my NH 15 (cooling r2600) overkill i know. i have 100% peace of mind and great cooling, noticeable better than with my aio.
@@masanalister2080 Also, if the fan on an air cooler fails then you can simply strap a case fan on the cooler and continue using your computer while you wait for a replacement fan.
If the AIO pump is done for then that whole cooler needs to be replaced with another one ASAP.
why not go with corsair aio, i still rock my 4th gen i7 4790k aio corsair hydro h105 in my 9700k almost 5 years later? still keeping in 30s low 40s c for me...... maybe i hit a golden jackpot idk but never even considered of replacing my aio unless it didnt perform.... maybe for the cool RGB ;) but so far no issues whatsoever.
@@TheAirhawk40 ya, ive got a build that is a little over 5 years old still running off its h100i v2 from corsair.
@@TheAirhawk40 the problem is an AiO *can* malfunction, while the air cooler will last you a lifetime
you like the water cooling benefits for the added risk, but some ppl wanna reduce the risk to the lowest possible
I'd take a 75$ air cooler over a 150$ AiO any time.
i have an OG enermax back from 2014 i believe its a 240mm radiator 2 fans and a small blue light on the cpu block , cleaned it up a year ago, it had solid tiny chuncks of "tiny rocks" not much of the sticky stuff we see in the video. Replaced the coolant with tap water, still runs. The reason behind doing this was i had 55c idle with a 4770k, when opened the liquid inside was not enough for the radiator to circulate and it only pooled in the return pipe. still works like a charm although i do not know if i would prefer enermax again.
you've explained your reasoning, displayed your data and explained what bias you might have.
kudos, i've subscribed after watching one video
That looks like the result of mixing copper and aluminum and a lack of Ethylene glycol. That's why I use car coolant with 75% distilled water in my custom loops because I ain't got no time for crap buildup.
It's not ethylene glycol that prevents corrosion, that's just an antifreeze. Other compounds in the coolant (often HOAT based these days) are the corrosion inhibitors.
@@RobertHancock1 Yep, and I use the Toyota HOAT based coolant in my custom loop for a few years now. Its got a purple color to it and still looks brand new with zero corrosion or mold growing in it.
"... other liquid cooling manufacture who couldn't be named..."
Coolermaster: "Am I Voldermort to you?"
Really enjoyed this. I can't imagine the time and effort it took to slug through everything to make this content..
i admire your content and dedication to make the videos possible.
Thank you for you review and information you provided.
"I just use the White Powder to Cool Off Officer I swear!" lol
When my liqtech broke I switched to a noctua cooler. My retailer payed me back in full, since the noctua was cheaper I even "earned" money. Not going for enermax again.
I was minutes away from purchasing an Enermax AIO (Enermax Liqmax III) and thankfully i found these 2 videos (this and the older one you made a few months ago). Its sad how such a promising cooler ended up failing so miserably.
Very interesting video...
I use a Liqtech II since April 2018. A few weeks ago, my CPU temperature climbs to very bad points and sometimes my PC freezes, because of high temps...
I think, I will switch back to an ait cooling solution for my Threadripper 1920x....
After a year, I had to change the fans of my Liqtech, because of loud noises. The fans were replaced by Enermax without any problems.
I love this kind of content so much. Almost as much as I love the Australia wildlife shirt that just arrived today in the mail! Proud Patreon supporter for life here, gents!
Enermax was such a high end product back in the day. Remembered well the premium pricing on their PSU's but they where the best at the time.
Great Video!!! More Break Downs like this. Most Labs Don't Want to get Chased down by big companies.
Thank you for the great research!
Get Noctua & save headache for decades.
If you don't have the money for Noctua, Arctic is a good choice there.
Their silent fans preform the worst, but still run fine. After all, tech enthusiasts and repairmen do use their MX-4 paste.
@@Code7Unltd They do make a good thermal paste.
Does Noctua have made-for-Threadripper cold plates?
@@Code7Unltd If you don't have the money for Noctua, you also didn't have the money for an AIO (which are usually more expensive that Noctua for no performance increase but do provide an increase in possible points of failure), so that's irrelevant.
@@shawndiaz7528 Yes. Maybe ask Google next time.
I just had to replace my enermax water cooler after only 11 months of use. My temps were slightly above normal for the last two months then no more boot, too hot.
My new Noctua NH-U12S dropped my temps below the Enermax when it was brand new.
People sleeping on it, but that's a fantastic cooler at a ridiculously low price, especially considering the low price
Great job. I've noticed the vast majority of PC hardware manufacturers (especially the ones located in Asia) have really bad support and RMA problems. They essentially try to make it as difficult as possible to RMA stuff so that most customers won't go through the whole process. I'd love to see more videos looking into this stuff.
This reminds me very much of the situation with General Motors cars and their Dexcool coolant. There have been a large number of GM vehicles that have had their cooling systems sludged up with what has come to be called Dexsludge. Corrosion was also noted in many of the Dexsludge-afflicted vehicles.
GM did end up doing a recall to replace intake manifold gaskets (that the coolant flowed through) to address an incompatiblity in the gasket with one of the ingredients in the Dexcool. That allowed some coolant to leak out and air to come in to replace it, and the air reacted with the Dexcool to form the sludge. The sludge blocked coolant flow, and in some areas the parts of the engine that are supposed to always be full of coolant were not, and the metal above the coolant line corroded... and the products of that corrosion (rust, in the case of iron blocks) got into the sludge and tinted it red.
It should be noted that Dexcool is a trademark of GM, but the "any vehicle high mile" coolant from any of the major sources (Peak, Prestone, etc) is the exact same formula, just without the trademark. I... would not use that stuff in my car.
Back to the topic of the AIO... perhaps the hints Enermax has given about leaks can tell us something. If coolant leaks out, air will necessarily enter, and that air could be reacting with the coolant exactly as it happened with Dexcool. Even if you don't see any dripping that would be a sign of coolant leakage, it could be leaking so slow that it evaporates before it is seen. There would be some residue from the non-water bits of the coolant at the leak site.
When dealing with corrosion in fluids, pH is only part of the equation. Conductivity, especially in a system where the fluid is moving, contributes significantly to corrosion.
This is what I'm thinking as well. Perhaps there are cast manganese bronze components in the pump that have inadvertantly turned into an anode and the conductivity of impure water/coolant is accelerating the process.
I was also just thinking this, the liquid needs to be checked with a conductivity meter. Sometimes where I work if someone forgets to check the deionizing system the DI water gets too much like tap water and starts messing up experiments in the labs.
I was going to say this sounds a little like electrolysis. If any current is leaking from the pump/block then the most likely ground path I can think of would be from the copper plate, through the liquid, and to the aluminum radiator which is grounded via the PC case. Heating up the water would accelerate the corrosion, which would reduce cooling performance, increase temps, and cause even worse corrosion. It would be interesting to know if this problem occurs more with overclockers since the temps would be higher on average.
If you need chemistry help: "Nile Red" and "Cody's Lab" come to mind.
And there is "Applied Science" who can probably figure out what is going on in an ofternoon.
The guy at Applied Science is amazing. Some of the stuff he does in his basement blows my mind. That would be an amazing collaboration.
Your investigative work is pretty good. Also, I noted that you guys take a pretty scientific approach to evidence analysis (the same kind of skepticism and critical thinking that go into a scientific research).
Keep up the great work! Many users will benefit from it.
Outstanding work like always, GN. You guys are the best journalists in the PC hardware enthusiast community by investigating objectively and remaining unclouded by corporate sway or personal bias. Thank you.
RMAed my Gen1 awhile ago, I WAS responsible per emails to ship the unit back to them AT MY COST.
12:50
"Thank you for your suggestion." - complete throwaway line. Merely acknowledging you said it but may or may not take it anywhere or utilized.
"Will not charge for new product." - the new item won't have any material cost to user (no mention of who is responsible for shipping)
"Also free gift" - an additional item(s) of some description will be sent either alongside replacement unit or afterwards. Still no mention of who would pay for shipping; typically, it would be the company.
So, yes. There is no real vagueness of the meaning: the user will not need to buy, or even out, the cost of a replacement/upgrade and will also receive a gift of some kind. Shipping cost is not officially laid on the feet of either but, yes, in a situation such as this: the company would be expected to pay shipping.
As I mentioned in a previous comment, on the Enermax support page, they explicitly say that the customer has to pay for shipping for RMA for faulty or DOA products.
Thank you guys for a great service you provide to PC users ... what you guys do is sooo very important to people building their own PC's thank you again for your contributions
I got stung by a mixed metal loop on my 1st water cooling set it was a thermaltake water cooling case with built in cooling.
After that i went all old school full copper distilled water custom loop 1st built prolly 15yrs ago only drained and changed for upgrades (prolly never fully drained .... i havent changed the fluid in 5yrs now ) Have a glass window fluid is still clear cooling is still great. Its not rgb its not black but damn it's like old faithful.... just bloody works.
"Nasty Enermax Slime"
Somebody call the Ghostbusters.
@Trantor The Troll
The "power of Patti" compelled me to never watch the second half of that trash. lol
This happened to my non TR4 cooler!!! My liqtech II I got a couple years back was seeing Temps of 95c on my R5 2600 @4ghz. I took the cooler apart and saw a very small amount of liquid left in it and a good amount of gunk
Had a Liqtech 1 TR4 bought in late 2017, failed about a year ago. Didn't open it but its failure lines up with what we've seen here. Though I'm sad to a product I paid for fail, Enermax did pay shipping both ways and was only a few emails back and forth to accomplish. One bonus, they only wanted the rad/pump combo back in the RMA, so I got to keep the 3 fans (360mm kit).
Love the coverage, attention to detail, and scientific testing team GN!
Edit: If mine fails, I'll happily reach out to the GN team and would consider shipping it over as I'd be switching to monster air cooler or open loop at that point.
This is really useful content. Thank you guy