Something Growing in Threadripper Liquid Coolers | Enermax Liqtech I Failure Analysis
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- Опубликовано: 7 авг 2024
- The original Enermax Liqtech I TR4 liquid coolers are plagued with corrosion, gunk/build-up, blockages, and more corrosion.
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The original Liqtech I TR4 coolers should probably be formally recalled, but Enermax is trying to fix the issue by sending out revision II versions of its coolers to affected customers. Please let us know in the comments how your RMA experience is.
Consider buying something less nasty, like a Noctua NH-U14 TR4: geni.us/VBH9Po
With AMD's Threadripper 3 CPU release dates coming up in November, it's time to look at what has become the worst CPU cooler for Threadripper. Threadripper 3 will run high core densities and will need powerful cooling, so if you're looking for the best Threadripper coolers, it's important to know not to buy the Liqtech TR4 coolers.
The Enermax Liqtech TR4 liquid coolers -- the original ones -- were strongly recommended by our outlet on the basis of thermal performance. The coolers were exciting and used a properly-sized coldplate, which actually did benefit cooling in a meaningful way for the larger Threadripper dies. Unfortunately, reviews don't have a way to account for long-term use and endurance, and so no one had any way of knowing that these would fail so catastrophically. From what Enermax has told us, relating to the incorrect vacuum sealing process being used originally, we'd assume all original coolers are affected. Either way, these are gunked-up and jammed to a point where Threadripper CPUs are overheating even when idle or in BIOS, or sometimes they're jammed enough that the pump whines due to lack of flow. This isn't because there's not enough water, but because the water can't move.
Enermax has a serious problem on its hands with these coolers, and we must unfortunately revoke our recommendation for the Liqtech TR4 coolers.
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Editorial, Test Lead: Steve Burke
Testing, Additional Reporting: Jake Henderson
Video: Josh Svoboda, Andrew Coleman
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Игры
All tested on Enermax Liqtech TR4 Gen1 units. The newer one has not yet been looked at. That opening shot looks like it's out of Minecraft or something. Mining for... crusty liquid cooler juice from a copper block.
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You might also like our XFX 5700 XT THICC fixes: ruclips.net/video/SF1Zs3unEto/видео.html
Gamers Nexus Hey Steve I shot a quick clip but I ordered a Rx 5700 Xt from Gigabyte after watching your videos and I found the back plate was bent and pulling the PCB out. Did you notice this issue with yours? I’m getting a replacement. I have the video.
I would recommend pouring hydrogen peroxide on anything that might be algae or mold. If it bubbles or fizzes then it's a microorganism.
I replaced my Gen 1 cooler through Enermax and there was no shipping cost. They also replaced it with a Gen 2. I then, 8 months later had to RMA my Gen 2 as the divider in the end tank of the radiator broke loose and water was only cycling in the end tank. They replaced that one for free as well.
I sold the new one and did a custom loop.
Oh, and speaking of unreliable. Their fans ALL start making loud clicking noises after constant usage over about 6 months.
If i can get a hold of a sample I can run FTIR and EDS to tell you what the stuff is.
With “good” coolant I can tell you what’s different in enermax’s “sauce”
Microbiologist here - the green goop is most definitely non-biological, be it algae, mold or bacteria. This is a certainty for the simple reason that the coolers took so long to start failing. A microbial contamination will peak within a month (at most) from the date of contamination, including the time the cooler sat on shelves and in warehouses. Additionally, using it in a system under sustained load will kill most microbes, as temperatures above 60C is unlivable for non-thermophillic organisms, and unless enermax filled their coolers with water from the local hot spring, those are pretty hard to come by.
The green stuff looks like copper salts or oxide, since those are often green. Perhaps Enermax didn't use distilled water in their cooling mixture?
Thank you for your expertise! Really appreciate it. We had heard rumors from others in the industry that it may not have been distilled water, but were unable to confirm those. That said, it would make sense. One note as well: Liquid temperature typically stays closer to 30-40 degrees Celsius (even with a hot part); that said, in these, since water is not really moving, it probably was in excess of 50-60C at the coldplate area itself, so it would make sense that this would be non-biological.
I’m not so sure it’s copper salts given that is copper chlorine ion salts which has the greenish color. The pure copper salts tend be more blue.
@@eric4946 Petina?
@@thomaspeulen9520 Biofilm formation in potable water systems is a known issue, but this is different. In these coolers, contamination had to have occurred before they were sealed, since the system is air and watertight. If there were enough nutrients in the cooling mix for a microbial growth to develop to the resulting scale, it would have happened on the store shelves, not after a year in a working PC.
There is one possible scenario that would support the bacterial growth idea - very heavy water contamination, combined with a very low concentration of biocide. I don't know what compound Enermax used, but if it is metabolizable, or degrades over time, it is possible that small number of microbes survived long enough for it to become non-effective, at which point growth will occur. If sterility testing was done improperly (i.e. not enough serial dilutions) the initial contamination will be undetectable.
Again, this is the least likely scenario so far, as it requires the highest number of unusual conditions to work. If someone is willing to send me a sealed cooler (or a properly collected sample), I'd be happy to look at it under a microscope.
Green is also common for nickel salts.
The green isn't algae; algae needs light to live, and the Enermax system is completely dark inside. It's possible it's some sort of mold. More likely, it's a chemical corrosion of the copper, as copper salts (ie, dissolved copper) it often turns green.
I agree. That would also explain why it turned white as it dried. It was probably a hydrated copper salt complex, and as it dried it lost water and turned white.
So Enermax Algae is most likely just copper oxidation, the name is still catchy though and hope it picks up traction.
@@unsmote1560 Copper oxide is red to brown/black, not green.
The only way for a salt to form is if there would be anything for copper to react with, so unless he used some kind of acid mixture just no.
It looks like acid corrosion.
Maybe a bad batch of coolant , or air got in and the coolant acidified? Check the ph of the coolant maybe?
"We're not in the business of resurrection" - says the resident Jesus lookalike.
Came to the comments for this comment. Well done.
1 Corinthians 11:14 "Doesn’t nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him"
Steve is not black, so not a Jesus lookalike
@@llothar68 Research found that Jesus was tea colored
@@TechFabLab Tea-colored? Which tea? That's a description I've only seen in Japanese hair dye, which is brown, and I'm assuming that's what you're implying. You're right, nonetheless.
How to make a battery: take 2 different metals and separate them with an electrolyte. Now create a circuit, usually with wire but circulated electrolyte will also work, and the result is corrosion. The white solid after drying is probably an aluminium salt.
This year's disappointment build is gathering components.
5700xt thicc, Intel cpu, h310 motherboard, enermax cooler (an intel version because the actual disappointment is threadripper only), the throttleing RGB SSD that jayztwocents made a video about, p400a?
The poor ram that is going to be selected has my compassion.
That would be any """Value""" heatspreader-less RAM bought anywhere between 2017-firs half 2019 due to artificially inflated prices
@@Corei14 i love the "intel cpu" part
@@Elinzar lol yeah im an intel fanboy and even i thought that was funny
@@Elinzar I'm thinking i5? Maybe one of the new 109876543210MK ultras, based on announcement fail alone?
7:36 "We're not really in the business of resurrection, well not always" - Steve "Tech Jesus" Burke
Came here to make this comment.
i love this!!!!
I was going to make that comment too haha.
@Ziv Zulander Hey sup. Yes it's me lol.
@Gamers Nexus, Make a merch shirt with this on it. :D
I've been an Automotive mechanic for over 30 years and it is uncanny on how this looks compared to a vehicles cooling system with corrosion.
If I was showed a picture of just this cooling block in the video, And I was told it was from a vehicles cooing system, I would diagnosis this with high PH level in the coolant and/or a sever case of Electrolysis.
Algae really makes no sense in a system that is completely dark inside either as it is photosynthetic so would require an environment with both sufficient nutrients and access to light. Maybe in a loop with one of those clear reservoirs or similar though even then where would the nitrates and such needed come from, similarly for non photosynthetic life where would they obtain nutrients from unless the fluid was heavily contaminated with organic chemicals that could be broken down for energy. I failed to consider the point made by another poster who is a microbiologist that the temperatures would likely be too high for most species at peak load but there does seem to be a lot of factors going against it being biological, almost certainly chemical processes here like you suggest.
Also ASE certified technician. Makes me think of radiator electrolysis were the car is a grounding through the radiator
Well, the principle of operation and design are pretty similar. You have metal parts that get hot, a pump, a reservoir, a radiator, and a coolant fluid to move heat from the metal parts to the radiator. And he said that the coolant was a glycol mixture, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was very similar in composition to antifreeze. (It looks like the older antifreeze that older cars and trucks (Pre-mid 90's?) would use.) And, with the exception of a blown head gasket leaking oil into the coolant lines, the issues and troubleshooting are going to be very similar.
BTW, I'm just a shade tree mechanic who's watched a lot of science shows... A LOT. (I was a secondary ed - physics major at one time.)
@@jackielinde7568 Was a few days since I watched the video so perhaps I am not remembering that part but I don't recall the mention of glycerol. Honestly that would seem unnecessary for this application as the main reason for including it in the fluid mix for cars is the fact that they often need to operate in sub zero (sub 32F for Americans) temperatures. This is generally not within the design requirements for a device designed to operate indoors, though I guess they may have lower concentrations of an anti-freeze agent present just seems something that is unlikely to ever be needed for a mains powered appliance designed for indoor use especially in modern indoor spaces where the air conditioning/heating system will generally not permit the space to reach zero Celsius short of physically disconnecting the mains supply wires as most will automatically kick in around the 2-3C mark to prevent damage to the plumbing of the structure which can be damaged or even rupture if the water inside freezes.
@@seraphina985 Actually, antifreeze is used to change both the freezing and boiling points of water, as clean, pure water tends to boil around 100 degrees C/212 degrees F. Not saying that computers could get that hot before the silicone could turn into slag. However, I could see an AIO manufacturer using one of the formulations of antifreeze (or a similar glycol product) because it has the some of the similar properties that you would look for in a cooling fluid for an AIO cooler. And seeing there is a lot of this stuff out there (especially the older green/yellow stuff for older cars that may not be in as much demand), it's possible a company may have used this stuff instead of something better suited to this unique use case. (Wouldn't be the first time a company has cut corners, and it won't be the last.)
And he did say glycol a few times. But, then again, he also was saying algae could be the slimy stuff, except that algae needs light for photosynthesis, and this device doesn't have clear parts to see the fluid flow.
comments: chemists unite
what i got from reading: its not algae
@Everything 3 guesses where these copper coolers come from and the first 2 don't count! China you say! yes, of course, your right and I can tell you from experience the Chinese could give 2 shits if it's real copper or pure copper just so long as it looks like copper, my guess is its just not pure copper and only god knows whats in it.
@Everything but yes your right copper turns green when it oxidizes so it did have some copper in it.
@Everything Yea oxidized Copper posibly with Calcium Carbonate from insuficiently treated water below?
It could be algae if it's a extremophile.
@@drunkenpumpkins7401 Most algae require to grow though, at least if they're green..
This how the Ninja Turtles happened.
How long will The Ooze remain a secret?
You have a beautiful mind
mewmog Top comment sir. But the 90s Turtles. Let’s forget their modern day “resurrection” ever happened... :/
noice
@@blakecasimir yes, the the originals may have been more cutesy 'Yeah a little too cutesy' & not as Dark, but they are my favourites as the modern ones tried to take themselves too seriously
That is definitely a dissimilar metals reaction. Another possibility is the inside of the radiator is coated and that coating is breaking down under high heat loads.
I agree, Biofilm without light or oxygen seems unlikely to me. Looks more like electochemical degradation. If coldplate is somehow electical connected to the radiator (trough case maybe), and the water used is (or becomes) conductive trough impurities, you got a battery. I would bet you will find a thin layer of copper inside the radiator, coming from the coldplate.
Some could be excess flux if there was soldering or brazing processes used on the radiator or block.
@@jwo7777777 Hmm, yes in a closed loop like this, a bit of Flux residue could actually be enough to make the Water slightly acidic, kikstarting the Process. But i also see copper on the Housing of the Coldplate, which seems to be a dissimilar Metal. If the Paint breaks down trough Heat or Chemicals, you got your electolytic Reaction right there.
yeah definlty a reaction or coating is degrading looks oddly famliar to something i've seen before.
@@timhartherz5652 Also where is the carbon or even more tricky nitrogen in a bioavailable form? Carbon perhaps less of an issue as it's perhaps possible that some parts are permeable to CO2 but most lifeforms cannot use N2 as a nitrogen source directly would require a nitrogen fixing bacteria to also be present even if there was a gas permeable membrane in the system. Unless they are using completely unfiltered river water it's unlikely to have much nitrates etc. Given that it would probably require multiple sources of contamination to provide an environment suitable for biological life in addition to contamination with the microbes themselves would suggest this to be less likely than a single issue, perhaps the fluid pH is simply too low acid + metal = salt would explain the green colour also (copper salts).
at this moment, Noctua laughs as a movie villain 😂😂😂
😈🤣🥳
thats not algae, 99% sure its a copper breaking down, thus the green color
Absolutely, it is called
verdigris. And i already mentioned in my post, that it is toxic. :)
yeah with the amount of copper ions in that corroded gunk a biocide is the last thing to worry about, the rotting cooler is doing that job just fine :'D
@@nonchip Oh yes, absolutely. :)
Verdigris is just a generic term for green pigments made of copper; there are actually several different compounds called "verdigris" (copper carbonate, copper acetate, copper chloride), and a few other green copper-based compounds not generally labelled as "verdigris". It would be interesting to analyse the liquid on an unused Liqtech (from that batch), to see if they included some acid likely to react with the copper, or if it's something else (ex., the "rubber" gasket) reacting with the liquid and _then_ forming something that reacts with the copper.
@@RFC3514 But with the lack of another word for the salt that comes from corrosive copper in English, verdigris is used for it.
As i said in my original post, wich i totally not demand has been read by anyone, here are far to many of them :), we in Germany have a word for it. It is Grünspan wich only loosely translates to verdigris. There is the Jewish/English name Greenspan, wich means the same but is not used as that anymore.
I did my research on the English term, before posting anything on that topic. I strongly believe, that one should not post anything about chemicals if he/she has no clue what he or she is talking about.
7:18: That's all the information you need. Started out as green and then turned white. Not algae. Corrosion.
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Lincraft
Priceline (Which used to only go to 1 out of 9 areas in town)
Specsavers (They did half the town last week and the other half this week)
Prouds
Mitre 10
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IGA
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We've been having some low weeks lately, this weeks an up from the 6 we did last week.
Enermax: The Secret of the Ooze
Go noctua, go noctua, go noctua, go!
Hi Steve, I had this same issue with my TR4 liqtech v1 280. Even though I'm in Australia and purchased from Amazon US, enermax still replaced my unit with a V2 360mm for free ( no shipping ) and I did not need to send my old one back. The girl I was in correspondence with was very friendly and the experience was good sorting the replacement. Great video as always mate!
"Those who fail to learn from history are destined to repeat it". This is clearly mixed-metal galvanic corrosion, a problem that has been known about in the watercooling enthusiast community for at least 20 years, from right back in the days when people were making their own custom waterblocks and brazing small-diameter tube connections onto car heater cores for use as radiators. It was a known issue with several of the earliest "off the shelf" WC kits too. --> dansdata.com/burning.htm [article dated 22 December 2000]
The fact that Enermax product engineers either didn't know about this problem or chose to ignore the potential for failures is truly an Epic Fail.
Last I heard most AIO manufacturers ignored it to some extent, and should be assumed to have a limited lifespan. Copper's expensive (and probably a bad choice for fittings. I bet an all aluminum loop would last longer, if it didn't get the manufacturer laughed out of the building.
yep. That's why i always say to avoid at any cost AIO with alu radiator and copper cold plate.
Either by "all copper" AIO or just build custom loop with all copper parts
Yup, galvanic corrosion it is. The problem is well known since mid 19th century. Haven't seen something like this in CPU liquid coolers for quite a while. I'd like to hear the story on how Enermax design team f**d up so hard. But it could be on production guys - like, last minute changes in production process (mostly for cutting costs and corners) or third party sourcing that no one bothered to check, things like this happen.
I think you've nailed it. This chart offers guidelines for galvanic compatibility: www.engineersedge.com/galvanic_capatability.htm
Galvanic corrosion was my initial thought. My car actually uses brass and aluminum in the cooling system to cool an aluminium/iron engine. With the appropriate additives, the ethylene glycol and the appropriate amount of deionized (or distilled) water should have sufficient protection though their buffers. If they use taps water high in calcium or magnesium I could see this being similar to scale that forms in more traditional cooling systems. I don't know what manufacturers actually use in their AIOs or if it is a coolant whether it is IAT, OAT, HOAT, etc.
In these systems there is no risk of cavitation is there?
They still haven't fixed this. And this is why I am running the Noctua TR4 air cooler. Works great .. I am at 4.0ghz all cores at 68c under load (1950x).
Steve: Maybe you should stop eating while watching this video
Me, putting another gummy worm in my mouth
brutal
Yeah, @@JS-bf9dw, but EVPointMaster's comment made me laugh out loud.
mhmmm gummy worms..
Sour gummy worms are the best, @@aloysius987.
"fair warning, if you're eating"
me: "i'll regret this" *continues eating*
Did your stomach survive the test? xP
@@AsAboveISoBelow yeah wasnt actually that bad, just a bit of rotten cooler goo :P
my Thumbnail-influenced brain said:
"Thats dusts, how gross can it be?"
very gross
L.O.L. This was very funny because it is so relatable. I can't stop L.M.A.O.-ing.
My TR4 Liqtech 360 ended up failing about 6 months ago. I swapped to Noctua for a while and then got the Liqtech II once I heard that the problem had been addressed. Works well now, let's see how well it works in a year.
Similar timeframe of when mine failed. Contacted Enermax as I believe they had recalled them. Gave me the new Liqteq II for free. Works great but the fan rattle is still annoying. Better replace those.
@@EhrgeizTV My first one, version II right away failed within 2 months. My CPU creates up to 330W of heat due to overclock. Maybe this sped up the contamination and growth. Then I got it replaced with version II-2. It worked like day one on the last day where I finally switched to custom loop... I used it for 5 months then, same load, same heat in summer.
@@kyoudaiken damn. I intend of moving from Threadripper to a 3900X shortly anyway so I'll grab a different cooler altogether. Never going Enermax again that's for sure.
@@EhrgeizTV The second edition is fine, though. Why do you switch to AM4? Never used the PCIe lanes? I have 3 PCIe SSDs, and there will be a fourth soon... AM4 is therefore not for me. Also I need quad channel memory.
I have my V2 die within about 5 to 6 months. My computer turned off because of temp while I was away. I came back and checked logs. I was a little shocked. Now it is air cooled on Noctua and not going back to an Enermax Cooler for anything. Didn't bother to warranty the POS because it wasn't worth the postage.
This wasn't your fault, Steve. You and your team obsess over giving us good recommendations and you do. You can't predict the future.
Tech Jesus should be able too
He's not really admitting fault here. This is them obsessing over giving us good recommendations. Given the information at the time he gave us a recommendation for a good cooler. Given new information he gives an update retracting his recommendation. I can't say that's something your average tech reviewer would do. I have alot of respect for GN
Thanks GN for your investigation and results. I own the Liqtech TR4 version 1 which, after one year, was showing increasing idle and load temps. At 14 months I decided to RMA my unit after your video and Enermax was willing to send a new replacement unit Liqtech TR4 version 2. Waiting to receive unit but worried on the reviews coming out from users experiencing the same issues for version 2. Either way, appreciate your hard work on the matter and it helped narrow down why I was experiencing the high temps.
This looks like it was a bit more work than normal for making the video. Kudos to you for all the work & effort put into doing this.
After a grand total of 5 AIO liquid coolers failed on me in a period of less than a year, I built a custom loop and haven't looked back. Still going strong after 3.5 years.
Terrell Cole
Did you buy the same AIO water loop 5 times or what?
Dang! I got an AIO with my FX8150 and it ran like a champ for like 5 years until I built my new rig early this year. Went with a custom hardline loop and agree, it's awesome! Although, that old AIO could probably still run for years.
I had a corsair h100i that started leaking about 3 years ago, killed my whole rig. Air cooling all the time now.
Oh look, someone had to learn the hard way. Over and over and over again. Think about what you did differently that the factory production line couldn't do. There's your answer.
my open loop has been going since 2004. I use car coolant as well, so I have had really good results.
i bet this is caused by someone at the factory being told to save a few pennies per unit
@Natty Fatty Powerlifting Hopefully nobody merges it with a Cessna like a Pinto.
ChubbyEmu: An Asian man saved pennies and removed all the Zinc from his PC. This is what happened to his Enermax AIO.
@@mikkelbreiler3846 That is funny, im subbed to Chubby as well. :)
@Natty Fatty Powerlifting might have to buy a new cpu when it catches on fire though lol
@Natty Fatty Powerlifting That was because the pinto's fuel tank was located outside of the frame and behind the rear bumper so it had a likelihood of catching fire when struck from the rear.
That looks like the kind of corrosion you get when you run unfiltered, un-distilled tap water through a system.
@Kevin spacey all tap water isn't the same, especially if you're on a well. Ground water has different minerals and other things depending on your location.
@Kevin spacey Your tap water might be processed and filtered/distilled in a different way than most tap water in the world.
@JonsReef Did you have a copper-aluminum galvanic couple in your system?
@JonsReef That's exactly what I was talking about. I'm pretty sure that there is a galvanic couple in that Enermax cooler.
I suspected this would happen based on personal experience with earlier products from the company and also from your videos covering the topic in previous months.
Thanks Steve.
Holy smokes, guys! Really went above and beyond with this one. Clearly you respect your reputation more than Enermax respects their own.
7:37 - "... we're not really in the business of resurrection..."
I thought you were supposed to be Tech Jesus!
More of a Wookie. He's more likely to rip your arm off than walk on water.
You need to wait three days.
This looks like stuff that "grows" in my gun cleaning leftover jug. Whenever I uses a copper solvent down my barrel then add it to the waste jug this green stuff forms and seems to clump together. Also tends to grow more and faster when it comes from certain black coated barrels. It also shows up on my cleaning rod if not wiped off
Not sure if it helps or matters, though I'd toss that in given the fact of chemical erosion/ contamination
The mention of copper there is very likely your answer, many copper salts have a green colour these are also what is responsible for the greenish scale you get from taps sometimes particularly hot water taps as the hot water pipes tend to be copper.
Thank You for researching this and informing us of this issue. As a result of your first article I took a close look at my Enermax Liqtech TR4 Gen1 cooler and found the CPU temps where higher than expected. After 17 months of operation (mostly 24x7 usage on undervolted 1950x) I found similar green growth and corrosion. Along with fairly deep pits in black metal internal housing underneath the buildup.
I opened a case with Enermax in June 2019. I attached all the information they requested along with pictures of the internal housing (pre and post cleanup). Enermax replaced the cooler with the newer model. Enermax paid for shipping both ways. They did not want a credit card and the process was hassle-free. I'm sorry to hear that others were not as fortunate in their dealings with Enermax. I hope Enermax issues a recall in the future for these coolers.
Thanks again to the staff of Gamers Nexus for all the hard work on these types of deep dives.
And that my friends is why I buy Noctua. Zero headache, zero mess.
i feel the same way water cooling seems to much of a hustle.
agreed. too much drama. Noctua coolers rock
NHD-14 on a 2600K. Still cooling after all these years.
Much agreed. It's so much less of a hassle, and you don't have that one critical point of failure that may even damage your entire build if something isn't assembled right, or in this case, the product is purely a botch.
Eldridge clever yeah just the occasional thermal paste cleaning and you're good to go again.
This is why I stick to high end air coolers with air conditioner in my room
Yep. I went back to air cooling aswell, after 7 years of AIO liquid cooling. It's just not worth the hassle. Air cooling might not be the best looking for showcase systems, but the performance they bring nowadays is just as good.
DJJOOLZDE custom loop are the way to go if you're gonna be liquid cooling. came to that conclusion after I had a failure after 4 months of use. of course air is great for reliability and I'm currently air cooling my pc.
@manicniceguy Well its like 2 Ryzen put onto one Socket.
My Noctua Industrial PPC 3000 build IS my AC in the summer. it keeps my feet very well vented. even in shoes. Ofc i use a Headset though
Air conditioning? What about condensation?
How does this channel not have a ton of subs..? This is the best info out there
Solid vid.
Im glad to see a tech-tuber actually using evidence to backtrack and re-evaluate recommendations, 100% gain to your guys already substantial credibility!
Hope you guys keep helping us PCMR stay ahead of the race!
7:41 "we're not really in the business of resurrection, well, not always" ... Did Steve just let it slip that he is either a Necromancer in his spare time OR that he is IS infact Tech Jesus????
Want to through my experience in: Bought mine on GN recommendation (love your work, no one could have known these would have had longevity issues) in Nov 2017, I used mine for working from home online, gaming, video creation, and when I wasn't using it, it was mining. Temps slowly degraded over time. I had the rad setup so the tubes entered at the bottom so if any air got into the system it would be trapped in the rad (per GN or another tech tuber recommendation). In the Spring of 2019, I had to move it around in the case, on the next boot up the pump stopped working completely. I opened a ticket with Enermax, they requested pictures of the serial and of the cooler itself. Once I sent them that, the shipped me a Liqtech II cooler in matching size with a prepaid return label (believe the box was over-nighted or two day shipped, either way it was fairly quick). They specifically said they only want the pump and rad back, so I packed those in the retail box I still had and kept the mounting hardware and the fans (which still work).
Overall, sad to have to replace a component, but if you have to get one replaced, it was a decent process, and worked satisfactorily. I was still down my desktop for about a week, so if your 24/7 uptime is that important, you should have a backup of everything just in case.
Wow! I've always been concerned about going the liquid cooling route but was finally very close to finally getting an AIO. However, I decided to look up online discussions pertaining to AIO failure rates and you posted this at the same time! I think I'll stick with air cooling if for nothing else then to just not unnecessarily add in failure points into the system. Thank you Steve & GN.
I never had liquid cooling in my life! I had a custom cooler for my athlon 64 about 15 years ago, but every build I use stock cooler since I never have a need to overclock. Interesting to see what can happen with liquid cooling though. I am happy that my stock air cooler has no such risks, and will always outlive my build.
my liqtech 360 died 3 weeks ago, only lasted a little over a year, switched to the dark rock pro 4 with a 3rd fan and replaced all the case fans with be quiet fans and it runs cooler and much quieter never going back to aio's
Yep, air cooling is the safe route, as it has the least amount of possible failures.
im only on an AIO because it wouldnt fit the system we built intending to use it, 280mm, stock fans sucked, but i tossed on a couple noctua 3k rpm high pressure fans.... now its a bit better then my silver arrow extreme was.... and alot easier to work around...its also a cryorig that gives the vrm area its own fan via one that snaps into the block....at first i thought the idea was silly...actually works well... keeping my fx 9370@4.8 24/7 happy... it may not be perfect but... its not bad either.
i still have my silver arrow extreme sb-e, but this thing is better.... either way... they both will work when/if i can ever afford to go ryzen.
4
Una Salus Victis I need something for both my vrms and north bridge. I made the bad decision of buying a 970 chipset board for my fx 6300. last time I decided to try to push that I got a 71C reading with a temp gun on the north bridge heat sink.
Mixed metals and I thought this cancer was done away with in the early 2000s, wouldn't be surprised the coolant is partly to blame.
Pretty much every CLC on the market uses mixed metals, which is not a problem when a coolant with corrosion inhibitors is used.
having delt with this kind of thing in one of my former lines of work, this looks like a combo, a bio agent and bad coolent, likely the bio agent ate away the protective coating on the inside of the rad, leading to the system showing what you see here... cold be bacteria, mold and even some other nasty stuff...
in short, im betting it was a mix of bio agent and mixed metals....
MrKillswitch88 nope. the h100i V2 also uses mixed metals. someone else found that out the hard way by tearing down a few of their failed units and discovering this.
this is the very reason I'm personally staying away from AIOs now. I had my h100i V2 failed after 4 months of usage. can't be bothered to get a replacement from Corsair either.
Just like Steve, I also have long hair. I am always being compared to Jesus. This is completely off-topic, unsolicited hair-care advice for Steve. If that's annoying or unwelcome, then just skip my comment. Sorry.
On to the advice: It looks like you are washing too many oils out. Admittedly, with that length it can be hard to keep the oils in while also achieving a thorough clean. If you can reduce shampooing, focusing on just shampooing the scalp directly as needed, and then maybe applying a bit of shampoo down the mid-length of the hair when needed (i.e. for most people not every day). By doing this, you may be able to gently brush/wash oils down the strands to keep them from drying out and frizzing. Having enough oils makes styling easier, should help reduce breakage, frizz, etc. It just makes the hair have an easy time. Okay that's enough of that, hair-care advice is over.
Thank you for your thorough videos! You make sure viewers can be in-the-know beyond just the surface-level, short attention span news cycle. This is the stuff that is needed to keep consumers informed and safe from poor practices from sellers. Again, my apologies if this is unwelcome advice, you can just ignore it. Keep up the great work!
Chemist here: definitely not algae or anything alive. You can sent me a sample and I can see in the lab what it could be.
You'd be surprised what sort of conditions some yeasts can survive. The system likely reached an equilibrium due to the limited number of nutrients, which then got recycled as cells died and decomposed. You have the energy input from the CPU heat. It's like a little self-contained ecosystem.
@Papaya Tasty Hey I play as you on ETS2.
@@ElectricityTaster I think the most probable explanation is somewhat related to this paper (doi.org/10.1016/0165-1633(85)90016-4 ). Some of the the degradation products of those glycols, that are very commonly used in liquid cooling systems, can react with other components of the formulation (which appears to be specific to Enermax), or modifying the solubility of some other compounds, or it could also be something super specific like a surface catalyzed polymerization of those degradation products on the copper. Of course, it could be biological but a simple video is not sufficient.
@Papaya Tasty its basic stuff really, water is never totally pure, mixing metals copper aluminium can cause corrosion which causes gunk and bacteria dirt, warm damp enviroment helps stuff grow also.
Likely Bacteria.
I stormed Area 51 and all I got was an Enermax cooler with alien pus inside.
@Ziv Zulander *Ba Dum Tss*
The green "algae" is a mixture of the (initially) green liquid used in these coolers + corrosion/reaction with copper and aluminium. I think that this impacts also the newer series of the coolers since they used virtually the same liquid in them.
I also own the 1st gen one (the 280mm model) and after noticing a rise in the temperatures + viewing some threads I decided to disassemble it, clean it up, assemble and fill up with a "proper" liquid (mixture of distilled water + anti-corrosives/protection from Innovatek (Protect)).
Working 24x7 since 1,5 years now - no problems noticed.
I ask myself --- what does the freakin' Quality Control @Enermax -- sleeping or maybe taking sick-leave?
Thank you for posting this! They replaced my first water cooler without paying shipping. On the second one they wanted me to send the original back and I had to pay shipping to return it. They paid shipping on the new one. As soon as I received the new one I put it on eBay and some poor schlub is probably dealing with it now and has no recourse for returning it. Never buying another Enermax product again just to teach them this lesson-- if you make terrible products, you will suffer the consequences.
I was having a horrible stomach ache and felt nauseous. Watched the video and managed to puke into the plastic bag I had nearby and my stomach doesn't hurt too much anymore. Thanks guys!
Techjesus: We're not into the business of ressurecting.
Me: You were the chosen one!
The title is a bit like those various late night spooky story channels.
"SOMETHING is growing in your liquid cooler..."
The title made it sound like a TR problem. Every open-loop builder knows you don't mix Aluminum and Copper in a water loop. Any fitting that's not copper is Nickel plated. In the first review a few scratches to the paint on the radiator would reveal the metal.
I've gone through three of these Enermax coolers for my 1950X in about a year, one v1 and two v2, and every single one of them would just stop working after a couple of months. Yes, the v2 has the exact same problem, even though Enermax claimed they fixed the issue. You could feel the radiators not getting warm over a larger and larger area as time went by.
I gave up on the brand and ordered a NZXT Kraken X72 back in May. Even though its plate has a much smaller surface area, I'm much, much happier with it.
Sterling Archer Same here with the v2, which replaced my v1. The v1 last about 10 months, when the v2 started exhibiting the signs after 3-4 months, I sent it back. I went for a Coolermaster ML360 RGB TR4 instead and at the moment it seems to be behaving.
We had two of these---a first gen and a second gen---that died within a week of each other. I disassembled the first-gen product and found exactly what you did, plus what appeared to be a black mold in the liquid proper. Disgusting. Trying to decide whether I want to flush them, replace the liquid, and use them as backups. Never even tried to get replacements from Enermax.
Have since replaced both with standard air coolers---a Wraith Ripper for my son's 1900, and a Dark Rock Pro TR4 for my 2950---and have been nothing but pleased with the replacements.
This is another reason why I learned to love brown and beige.
Aquila Rossa scythe fuma 2
i had a liqtech 360 V1 from enermax and after a few months it reached 56c+ in bios. Mailed them with the problem and offered to pay in advance to receive it so i could run on till it arrived (careful since hot) They immediately replied with the offer to send a replacement V2 for free (not even shipping)
Good to hear. How has that one been since?
@@GamersNexus its on a 2990WX and with 10-20% cpu use on avg (24/7) the temps stay around 28-33C (amb 20c) so seems to be working fine now (7 months in with V2) with gaming or stressing it the temps of course rise more but all within normal ranges for the stress i put on (i did run with the 500W limit on meg creation , 1080ti etc and pulled close to 900W, freq running to 4.1 Ghz). Due to the power use and not using the full power anyway i now pull only 250W ish and freq to 3.4Ghz all core
@@wernerz8314 Could you tell the high load temperatures? Thank you. ("Normal" is a bit difficult to evaluate)
My 360 Liqtech V2 has just crapped out, big waste of money (didn't last a year - and no warranty as I'm in Australia). Picked up a cheap cooler master unit to get by on for now, will install it shortly. Temps on the Liqtech are 50C on idle, god forbid I try and do any work on the machine (throttles down to 600MHz at 70 degrees, yikes).
Sadly i didnt recollect the right numbers (or i would have posted them ;) ) At the moment the server is hosting multiple services so i can not do a full test. i did do a 10 min R20 on 12 cores/24 threads (my game VM) and temps reached around 49-50C i then wanted to see if i could saturate the cooler so i kept going after the 10 min and ended up testing 30 min. I reached a saturation temp of 50C (19c Ambient) avg processorload total was 45-50% of which 12 cores/24threads at 100% load. Sorry i dont have the nrs for all cores, my best recollection was @250W cpu settings (3.4Ghz all core boost) i reached maybe 65c full load on 32 cores/64 threads. Once i have a maintenance run i'll see if i can do a propper test on all cores if you want but i think the 30m test i did is a good normal use case for most (how many of us really use all cores at 100% load all the time) The machine pulled an avg of 325-350W total system use during the test and once i stopped the test it dropped to the normal avg load i have 200-250W (GPU wasnt used in test nor baseline). Let me know if you want me to do that all core test during the next maintenance stop :) (and if it should be 250 and 500W)
this video really helps me with my diet. thanks steve!
jeff goldblum:
life uhh, finds a way.....
*has breakfast while watching the video*
*doesn't stop after the fair warning*
"Were not always in the business of resurrections"
Tech jesus confirmed?
Techromancing
Great video for my lunch break.
Corsair H80I purchased in 2014..... still working perfectly. idle temps @25c load temps@ 60-70 depending on room temp. 4770k OC@ 4.3Ghz Idle states set to 800Mhz when not under load.
I had a similar issue with paying for shipping with Corsair. They shipped me a DOA liquid cooler with a non functional pump. I couldn't figure out why my temps were so high because it appeared to be working in software. By the time I figured out the issue, it was past the return window, and Corsair made me pay 60$ in shipping to get a replacement. Additionally, since I opted to have a new unit sent before they got mine, I was charged 120$ for the new cooler. I never got that 120$ back despite waiting months and filling out multiple tickets. Needless to say I won't be buying their products again.
Breakdown the pump to determine if any metals from the pump was open to the coolant.
When building my TR rig, I discounted using Enermax coolers as the overall experience of customers no matter what the CPU was fair to poor. Companies can change, but why take the chance. I'm glad I did not take anyone else's advice.
everyone talking about the cooler, but that oscilloscope running in the background is killing me, because that is terrible for the display
*eating intensifies*
You should also cut off the end tanks of some of the radiators to try and dissect them a bit, curious what they look like inside.
Ya i would chop saw that thing with a diamond grinding blade trying not to distort the fins with too much pressure...cut a bunch of slices....my guess is they are 90% plus clogged.
"If you're eating while watching this video, ..." (Me amusedly continuing to munch on whatever I'm munching)
Same thing I found in my AquaChanger 240. It's an old aio, but in 2 years I found green and yellow gelly stuff inside. The problem is that that stuff entered and circulated inside the radiator and the pump, tha it has become very noisy. Never ever I'ii buy again Lepa/Enermax aio's. Thank you for the video that confirms my theory about the life of my aio, and seems that they are doing this with even the new ones.
I almost pulled the trigger on an Enermax cooler for my Threadripper, but I decided to do a Floe Ring 360 TT instead. VERY GLAD I DID!! I recommend it for TR owners, by the way. Don't let the circular heatsink fool you. When paired with something like Conductonaut, my idle temps are about 31C, and it rarely kicks up higher than 57C at even the most extreme loads.
There’s a streamer on twitch that went through 3 of them before he switched up to another cooler lol
I hope the replacements were free. After the 2nd one, I would say F this. Lol It's like fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
Joshua C. Brown they were but it was a hassle because his case was a server chassis, and that was also his streaming pc. It definitely sucked for him every time that happened. His twitch name is dasMEHDI
@Him There's no cooler that performs was well as this one on day 1, except custom loop. :/
@Him Not fair, if the streamer can afford a threadripper, then that is the ideal machine for streaming. I can't think of one better in fact. And water cooling tech is at least a century old, and here, Enermax simply effed it up in one way or another.
XFX: GN was mean to me REEEE
GN: Hold my beer
*5 Minutes later*
Status check on Enermax:
Dead
I wanna see PCR analysis of every growth with corresponding serial numbers, GN!
Edit: still got my Gen 2. Happy to send it in for tear down.
I’ve had both a Gen 1 and Gen 2 Liqtech TR4 360. BOTH have died hitting temps of 90+ degrees. The Gen 1 nearly corroded and leaked onto motherboard. Now using Wraithripper and not looking back! It’s huge, but amazing.
WHEN YOUR PC MAY LITERALLY HAVE A VIRUS...
xD
Oh god, it's that episode of Voyager where the liquid gel packs got the flu or some such.
They used Corona as coolant and caught the virus.
La cervesa por favor! Cough cough.
Wow. Kinda glad I switched back to air cooling a couple years ago just so the potential to run into this was never a thing.
Watercool Heatkiller Pro IV all copper and EK 45mm x 420mm all copper Radiators used with EK coolent is the winner. I got the D5 pump for Watercool resiviors just because I like the look. EK 7/16" tube and fitting are flawless, no runs, no drips, no errors. Flush the thing with disstilled water and replace the EK additive once a year. I use the bottom in port with a cut off valve to drain the res, and the top in port as a return from the rad during use. That still leaves a second top port on the res. as a fill plug.
I own both the 1st and 2nd gen Liqtech TR4 II 360 coolers. Both of mine stopped functioning in 4 months. I took apart my 2nd gen cooler, after my 1950X was overheating just browsing in Chrome.
I cleaned it all out and flushed the cooler with CryoFuel a few times to get any leftover bits that may have sat in the radiator. Once the gunk stopped coming out of the cooler, I completely filled it with CryoFuel and sealed it back up. The amount of fluid shown in the video is accurate. I too measure the amount of liquid that came from the factory while taking it apart. My cooler took 175ml to fill as I measured it in a measuring cup.
After re-building the cooler, it's been rock solid running a 4Ghz OC on my 1950X. Tops out at 69ºC under full load. So, I think I caught my cooler early enough before things began to breakdown in it.
Let's see how long it lasts now! If it does crap out, I have a Fryzen cooler on standby.
Highly unlikely it’s “algae” considering that the temperature of the coolant should kill most biological substances.
My guess is that they used some sort of silicate or phosphate compounds that you find in engine coolants. You see similar issues when you mix inorganic and organic coolants (green & orange “dexcool”)
Look up dexcool with green coolant and you see a very similar type of “gunk”
The temperature of the coolant? Well I never seen boiling water in the coolant. This is NOT A CAR
Dexcool used in the late 90's Chevy lines was a terrible product . Stuff turned into a tan clay mess . Now , using Cat ec1 certified coolants is the way to go .
@@impoppy9145 you don't need boiling water to kill microbes, anything above 65c is enough.
ImPoppy Doesn’t take much heat to kill bacteria, mold or algae especially . Boiling water is definitely not needed.
Most things can’t handle 120F even.
@@eric4946 you ever met legionella. She a real sweet heart.
Watching this video, looking over at my rig, with this very AIO running in it.....
man, did it just get hot in here from the crappy thermals, or am I just nervous about it now?
(answer: it's both. Thermals have been creeping over the last year and a half, but I got a Noctua replacement on the way.)
Seadoo had this problem in the 90's and early 00's with their vinyl fuel lines and copper/brass fittings on their carburetors because of ethanol fuel.. Looks pretty much spot on.
I have one of these coolers and before I went to a custom loop to cool my threadripper I was getting 70-80C at idle. It currently sitting on my shelf collecting dust. Glad I wasn't the only one with this issue.
Alien there: Bring back our life forms.
"If you're eating...."
Oh god damn it I was enjoying that!
Looking out for the "little guy". Well done GN and thank you.
I'm a motor sport technician. While I was in trade school I learnt that neglected cooling systems will slowly fill the system with debris over time, and just like if you put salt in water it becomes conductive. obviously the conditions are more extreme in that sort of environment but if you used low quality material, or contaminated fluids it will just expedite you to the same out come. On the race cars you take a multi meter, and put one probe in the liquid and other contacting the radiator and you'll get continuity. So you end up with electrolysis. Food for thought. Also, your pursuit of the truth and justice in the dog eat dog world of capitalism is extremely admirable! Keep it up!!!
"We're not in the resurrection business"
-Tech Jesus
I have an iron stomach. A little gunk ain't gonna stop me from eating!
I ordered 2 of the Enermax TR4 coolers right when they came out. I installed one and had it fail within two weeks. I tore it down and found exactly this on a brand new cooler. I tore the unused one apart and saw the same thing. Congealed coolant that looked like green jello. I have some pics that I sent to Enermax if you're interested in them.
Please review coolers by other manufacturers after a period of time. This issue is vital knowledge for liquid coolers over time.
The producers of James and the Giant Peach now bring to you: Steve and the Nasty Sludge
"Not really in the business of resurrection" say PC Jesus
Your videos are helpful very ! it's just the monotone that kills me .
I had trouble with the first version, but the replacement second version (TR4 II) has run flawlessly for over a year now. 1950x, temps at idle are around 32c, maxes at around 60c under load.
Ahhh, gotta love good old fashioned air cooling LOL
which I still use and actively AVOID all liquid cooling. my new i9-9900k 32gb 3200 MhZ, 2060 will be air cooled as well.
Lol imagine using these liquid coolers, the amount of pain in the ass for the sake of cooler look smh
I expect this to become The Verge's #1 360-AIO of all time.
Big thank you for the info
Thank you Noctua! NH-U12A had been bing two AIOs and sleep better at night.
Warning: Disgusting Content
FKING TOTALLY..my god
I just ate while watching this and I was fine. But then, this is nothing to what I've had to deal with in my kids' nappies! 💩💩🤢
It looks like coolant crystallize, those crystal forming are very common when using some type/brand of coolant back in my Intel Core2 custom loop era, it was a debate to use distilled water vs coolant.
I thought water cooling technology has solved all these issue, but it seems not.
This JUST happened to me. High temps for the longest time and been wondering why my comp kept running at 70 to 75c under load. Until couple days ago.... went over 90c. I opened the block, cleaned the nasty, probably better than when I got it, and now it's running at 53c under heavy use. I'm still surprised of how great it is now. Idles at around 35 to 40c. I'm glad my comp didn't blow up before.
It's copper oxide corrosion usually seen as green to dark brown to black. Use a non galvanic corrosion type fluid or non scale forming coolant commonly used in modern automotive coolant. No mildew resistant product is needed since the heat from the CPU kills most micro organism. Most auto manufacture sell higher grade coolants that resist corrosion and scale forming while allow lubrication to the pump seals. To see how well their coolant works look into any older vehicles radiator to get an idea of how well their OEM coolant works.