Not much ..... They were all "young and stupid". Rob got the short end of the stick and didn't have time to learn. Jon and Theon got molded by the things they endured. What they are now is because of that.
"It's not in my place to forgive you for all you've done. But what I can forgive, I do." Theon needed to hear this words. Best dialogue of the episode. Theon redemption.
A rare gem in a cesspool of muddled dialogue that was season 7. Its evident that not having GRRM in their corner, or his books, have made writing a chore for the showrunners.
Doesn't look physically fine to me.. Compared to season one, he's a mess.. Do you want him walking with a walking stick or in a wheelchair? This screenplay redeemed season 7 dialogue screenwriters
Joshua Plotkin yeah, he should've fought Euron to save Yara even though their fleet was annihilated and he was surrounded by the enemy...Running to save his life and live to fight another day is completely mentally fucked up.
I love that Jon says OUR father. Showing he still considers Theon as a brother, as family. The lack of music just adds to the emotion you should be feeling in this scene.
It's also interesting given the fact that Theon and Robb teased and ridiculed Jon for most of his childhood for his status as a bastard but still Jon sees Theon as a brother.
NED Stark is the real meaning of father ............he raised a tragariyan and a Greyjoy along with starks giving them equal previlage as his own kids ........it’s the real proof that only the good raising can make u a good man then a good blood ........ned stark though a fictional character has shown the world how a father should be I bow to u for that
Vamshi Vijaykumar I love Ned but the Greyjoy he “raised”(held as a political hostage to ensure his father’s good behavior) murdered two children. Theon is not a good man, he’s a child killer.
GD Tempest he murdered two innocent children because he didn’t want to be embarrassed with his inability to catch Bran and Rickon. He can regret it all he wants, he’s a child killer. He killed two little boys in cold blood. If anything the fact he was raised by Ned makes him even worse bc he knew better.
The good think in Got is no warrior is innocent children like cerseis children except joffrey or the farm boys rhaegars children they all died for stupid wars Ned is a good man but he killed arthur dayne cowardly he lead a war were two of the greyjoy sons were killed he let robert order the tagaryen childrens death
Feel bad for Theon. He's so lost and confused, looking for approval from such a young age. He just needed a helping hand. Great acting and character development
MrTenacity99 I agree to an extent but he had Maester Luwin trying desperately to help him time and time again when he took control of winterfell and he just refused to listen to him repeatedly.
richtea87 I think Alfie better than Kit at acting. Lena Headey and Dinklage are better than Clarke. Headey is so convincing that people at the conventions can’t separate the actress from her role. Headey in person is quite charming and a goof ball
Cause it's less memorable than the scene that comes right after this where Theon wins a fight by getting kicked in the crotch. Basically. I thought that scene was funny but yeah coming after an extremely important scene like this it may not have been the best shift in tone. Something really touching followed by an extremely cathartic but violent scene where Theon is getting his ass kicked up and down the beach (showing how strong and impervious he is to pain post-Ramsay, I guess) only to win, again, after utilizing the fact that he has no junk. So violence followed by comic relief. But yeah basically Theon died on the beach I think metaphorically and like all Kraken/Ironborn he rose again in the sea a new, better, stronger man with a new future that he now realizes is up to him to write.
As less empathy u have, less humanity u have and probably your character is not worth more than a coin. If you dont see the change in theons life and moral, as he choses to change and knows that, even if he was a stark prisioner, even if he was balon's son and heir, he sould not have betrayed then, and if you dont see his effort to become a better person... If you are ok to his suffering, because " aaah its Theon", you should see a psichologist or psichiatrist.
Jon gave Theon back his Stark, back his Greyjoy, back his Strength and Honour . Best scene ever. Jon will have to make the same decision or accept the same duality soon and the fact that he showed such compassion for Theon will serve him well.
What is a cock if you are not a man? The sweetest love is a man with courage, love, humour and integrity. Some men think cock is all, joyfully cock is not all, at best it's a bonus, but the best men and women are simply good people.
" He is a part of you , just like he is a part of me. " Ned is standing proud and crying listening to his boys in the afterlife , gosh I hoped Gendry had more moments with Ned so that he could feel this connection.
@@mannyhp6717 Wouldn't be surprised if ned took him as either a ward, essentially adopting him. Had what happened didn't happen.... You know what I mean
Jon is the closest to Ned than the other Stark children. And Ned is not even his father. I dont know why but it warms my heart. The bastard is the fittest to be the heir
@_Nhokz _ they were both just as honorable, but Jon showed more of Ned's characteristics of how we knew him in season 1, Robb showed more what a young Ned could've been
Without knowing it, Jon Snow's great monologue was as useful for himself as it was for Theon. "You dont have to choose. You're a Greyjoy and you're a Stark." Indeed. Jon is a Stark and Jon is a Targaryen.
SilverSauce The Emmys are a popularity contest. Which means that Alfie Allen and Charles Dance were doomed to fail from the beginning, since everyone is in love with the crappy actor and actress Kit and Emma
Kit is not a crappy actor lol. And Emelia (I guess you meant her) isn't the best of the best, but she improves every season! And yes, Charles and Alfie and many more are maybe better actors then them, but they are certainly not crappy!
Being in the entertainment business that involves all the tv shows and movies and stuff it is literally the only profession where you get yearly awards that are worth so much just for doing your job.
Justice Emilia is kinda awful. Watch her act in other things where she’s not surrounded by cgi that makes her look badass, she can’t act. She completely ruined Me Before You.
Jon acknowledges that Theon is a Stark, thereby winning his loyalty and gratitude forever. Robb failed to do that, saying the Starks was not Theon's house. Jon also had the pragmatism to forgive the Umbers and Kastark for their treason, thereby bringing the house into the fold for the long night. Robb followed the punishment of treason to the letter, thereby alienating the Kastark and losing an important ally. Just an observation.
A great observation at that. Jon has one major thing over Robb, integrity. Robb was a good man, but he wasn't a leader. Jon puts people a head of himself, regardless of what they've done. That's why he is a true King and has many allies like Daenerys.
Incredible Jake Robb wasn't a good leader that's crap no offense but he united the north at a younger age and gained the respect of seasoned northern lords. People let the red wedding skew their views of Robbs traits when he was one of the best rulers in the series who had the plot against his favor
Good point. Don't get me wrong, I liked Robb and the Red Wedding (in-universe) was unacceptable. But Robb also made a lot of clueless choices like killing Lord Kastark. But The North shouldn't remember him like that. The North remembers, but didn't care.
robb like stark were examples of being too stern 'letter-of-the law'. Other rulers like Joffrey examples of the opposite ...being capricious.The best rulers i think GRRM wants us to see are those who keep balance between mercy and wrath.
I've been waiting for this confrontation more than I was for Jon and Dany. When he said "Our father" the biggest smile stretched across my face because he still sees him as his brother.
it's kinda bs though. Theon merced like fifty innocent people taking Winterfell, including women and children. Book Jon will straight up shank a bitch when he sees him, and it will be the wedge that makes him fight Stannis.
Brian Fitzsimmons I loved that line, but I can see where you're coming from, in my opinion apart from Brienne being knighted Bran calling Theon a good man is the only good scene in season 8
People say Jon Snow of the show is boring and stupid but honestly I think the simplicity of his character is really endearing. He’s not flashy, witty and cool like Danaerys or Tyrion or Arya (at their best) he’s just a humble, straight forward guy trying to do the right thing. I think that’s really unique for a main character in this day and age.
I also hate when people call him boring or stupid. Jon is an inspiration because he beat the odds of being labeled a bastard who got sent to the wall. He wasn’t blessed with any particular extraordinary gifts, yes he’s a great fighter but even he says Robb was better. He defended those who couldn’t fight for themselves (Sam), never judged those who were different than him (free folk), and earned the trust of those around him with bravery and just plain decency. He’s a great example of how courage and doing the right thing can get you far in life. He’s probably the most human character in the show because of that.
I've never heard anybody call him boring and stupid. Maybe a bit dumb when it comes to being too honorable, and he wasn't good at playing the game because of it just like Ned, but he wasn't a fan favorite for nothing. It's only the writers that made him a fucking dimwitted idiot in the 8th season.
Was this "tough"? It just seemed kind, caring, understanding, and attentive. Jon could have probably done anything at all to Theon at this point, and basically nobody would have batted an eye. The guy betrayed both his families and got tonnes of people from each side killed, abused, and captured, after all. Instead, Jon let Theon talk, listened attentively, forgave him for what he could, accepted him back into the Starks, and quietly supported him in the choice he had to make (to save Yara). He didn't sugar-coat anything, no- but saccharine is really just as fake and self-serving as vengeance. Just..
@@neolexiousneolexian6079 It also should be noted that the Starks are not his family and he didn't betray them since Robb is the only one that trusted him.
Nah. I read it in a fanfic where they found another one direwolf pup and called him Squid)) "A direwolf called Squid" - for me, it suits Theon so much more)))
Catelyn is the one to blame. Ned tried to raise both Jon and Theon as Starks but Catelyn always treated Robb and Sansa differently than the rest of her kids. Robb saying to Theon that he isnt a part of their family or Jon and Theon being excluded from feasts is 100% Catelyns doing. Robb and Sansa are only entitled because they have the same Tully features Cat has. Sansa was raised by Cat and Arya by Ned: In the first book you got the younger sister fighting the enemies of her family, standing up for the poor and weak and being very smart by fleeing the Castle. While Arya shows courage, cunning and empathy, her older sister, raised by Catelyn, literally snitched on her family to become Queen. She didnt even do it because she was pressured by Cersei and the small council: Sansa actually anticipated that by telling Cersei, Joffrey will either send her father to the wall or to exile. At the end nobody wouldve thought that Joffrey would kill him, but Sansa is the catalyst for Neds death and House Starks destruction. Catelyn kinda deserved the Red Wedding...
I wouldn’t blame it all on her. Yes she wasn’t as great of a mother as she should’ve been, especially when it came to Jon, but honestly, her anger towards Jon is realistic. If your husband comes home with another woman’s baby, and basically ignores your feelings about it all, that’s gonna build up resentment and anger, even if the child doesn’t deserve it. Cat knows this, at least in the show, but she can’t bring herself to act and make amends with Jon or herself. As for Sansa, Cat wasn’t to blame for Sansa’s decisions, Sansa was. Of course she was young and naïve, and both Cersei and Varys manipulated her into getting what they wanted, while making it appear that Sansa was doing the right thing. Blame that all on Catelyn is unfair, even if she does share some blame in it.
Lmao the catelyn hate is ridiculous. I definitely think she overdid it but she had a very good reason not to treat jon as a stark. He is a bastard, but eddard presented him as his bastard which makes him a rival to her own children whether he likes it or not. When aegon IV treated daemon blackfyre as a targaryen, 5 civil wars happened. Even if jon himself wouldn't oppose robb, his children or even lords whom just have a bone to pick with robb, could easily start shit.
Robb is the one who literally told Theon he WASN’T a Stark…that he was less than. If he had been more kind and familial, Theon would’ve never chosen his ass of a father over the Starks.
@@jenniferkhan3686 Robb told Theon that because Theon would always talk about how he was prince Theon Greyjoy and the air to the iron islands, he always went out of his way to let people know who he was, he literally had the blacksmith put a krackon (symbol of the Greyjoy house) on his armour, why should Robb acknowledge someone as part of house stark who literally goes out of their way to let people know that the stark house wasnt his house? make it make sense. I would also like to add that Robb was the only stark who ACTUALLY treated Theon as family and like a brother. Theon would have dreams of marrying Sansa just so that he would be Robb's brother by marriage. He loved Robb.
The810kid no I think he'd definitely kill. I can imagine Robb saying something like " you may have saved my sister and spared my brothers, but you still betrayed the North and helped put hundreds of northmen to the sword. I sentence you to die"
I like that Theon never says "Sorry." It would feel too cheap. But they talk about their actions, the good and the bad, and they eventually reach a consensus. Great writing.
The last few seasons certainly had lots of issues...but the show 100% nailed Theon. Alfie absolutely nailed the role and deserves all the credit in the world for the amazing job he did.
correct.I knew he'd probably "have to die" to redeem himself but I cried like a baby when he did. I loved Theon. He was so human at his core. I also would have loved to have seen his and Sansas relationship develop....
Theon: she needs me now Jon: so why are you still talking to me? Theon: (great, now is my chance to ask him for help) well the thing is... Jon already left the room. Theon: ...
This was such a great emotional scene between two old friends. Jon was able to compromise and seeing that finding forgiveness is better than holding onto hate. Theon will begin anew towards his redemption, and be much stronger than when he was.
mmalovr57 Theon is a Dbag, he’s a child killer. I hate that the show makes him so sympathetic. This is basically an alternate universe, that’s how I think of it, it’s the only way to not get pissed at the show’s shitty characterization.
What makes Theon such a great character and one of the best in GOT is he’s incredibly relatable. Always seeking approval, confused about identity, unsure of if the decisions he’s making are the right ones. A lost soul who just needed guidance from the right person. His story is incredible and makes me tear up.
That “You’re a Greyjoy and a Stark” line works so well, not just for Theon, but for Jon as well (knowing his Targaryen parentage will most likely come up down the line)
Thought they hit a home run the moment this scene concluded. These kind of scenes were too far and few in this season. But I'm glad these two gave us a reminder of great acting and great WRITING (even in small instances post S5). Alfie was given such little screen time but he almost steals every scene without even trying.
From the moment this aired, I have said and still say- the BEST scene in the series. Obviously, the redemption of Theon is huge, but this is JON being KING, being a BROTHER, and being NED incarnate. Jon holds no grudges and offer wise counsel rarely seen from a mentor thrice his age. This world is built on thousands of years of history and politics and magic and wonder. This world is shared with us through the life experiences of this particular generation. This world is full of countless important heroes and villains and gray characters of all sorts and stripes. This world is full of Grumpkins and Snarks. But make no mistake- the most important character in the story has always been NED STARK. Many others did greater deeds or fought greater battles or manipulated greater events, but... But.. Eddard's interpretation of honor and his commitment to family shape Each of the characters so strongly that the ends are a foregone conclusion.
Nobody will be in the Iron Islands when he gets there because Euron actually went to Essos. Besides, what's Theon gonna do with one boat again the Iron Fleet? Theon is as good as dead.
The ability to forgive someone is so powerful. I think more than anything else Theon wants, more than any other individual thing on the planet, is forgiveness. And he wants to atone for all of the critical mistakes he's made in his life. This is why Jon Snow would make one of the greatest kings of all time, certainly in Westerosi history, because as much as he wanted to kill Theon up front for the damage he's done to the Stark family, he realizes the inherent power in empathy and forgiveness. He would rule with both strength and justice in mind. The easy thing would be to kill Theon for what he did. But in forgiving Theon, Theon now has a newfound sense of duty and pride instilled in him as having been accepted back into the "family" again so to speak. So on Jon's insistence, Theon and perhaps everyone else who comes in contact with him will go out into the world to spread more and more peace, prosperity and goodwill. Forgiveness is an extremely powerful thing.
“You don’t need to choose. You’re a Greyjoy, and you’re a Stark.” I think if Theon had just realized that from the beginning, perhaps he wouldn’t have gone down the path that he did😢.
jon's like... "god I want to keep hating you and I have every reason to keep hating you ... but you're not defending yourself at all so I guess I have to stop hating you :/"
As someone who grew up in foster care this! This right here will always be my favourite part of this show. The bonds of blood mean nothing compared to the bonds of Family
Theon wanted to be accepted he wanted to be loved and he was taken and put into a family that he grew to love and he lost his way. When Ramsey took him he lost everything
This scene hits you in the heart. Theon's redemption is one of the most emotional parts of the story. I love that Jon was the one to have this conversation with him. I saw that someone else said Jon is the most like Ned and in some ways I agree. I think that Jon has the most compassion and what Theon was in need of was compassion, an answer to his identity question, forgiveness and to be told that he is still their family. This is one of the few things that the writers got right in the last 2 seasons....really 3. Alfie deserves an award for this role if he hasn't gotten one. The emotions on his face literally brought tears to my eyes.
Jon has had tunnel vision since he's been reborn or at least that's how he's been written because I also find it hard to believe that he hasn't even mention Robb once
Yes, but Robb failed at being King, and there's a division even in the North of blaming him or mourning him. If I were Jon, at least right now as he's establishing his rule, that's not a debate I'd want to enter. He can neither defend Robb's choices or condemn them. Better to leave that wound to heal a while and not pick at it.
And think about why that is. Jon's emotions change and he becomes angry at the mere mention of Sansa from another man or the mention of those men who hurt her. Even when Tyrion mentions the sham marriage Jon suddenly gets uncomfortable. Jon's love for Sansa is an undying, unconditional devoted love. And his hatred for men that hurt her burns with a dragons fire.
Bahraini Gooner Robb was closer to Theon than any one in the Starks he most likely would have forgave him if he had the same knowledge Jon did. Last Robb knew of Theon was him at his worst had he learned every thing Theon did after season 2 and endured he would have buried the grudge.
Theon and Robb was like best friends. They were close and always played together. Northerners all were weary of Theon and didn't trust him, but not Robb - Rob admired him from the moment he met him at 5 years old (Theon was 10). Theon and Jon were never close - they had a competetive streak, because of the similarity of their positions in the Stark household. Robb and Theon - it's safe to say that they loved each other like brothers. It makes all that Theon did that much more heartbreaking. If Robb was in Jon's place right now, he would be much more angry (because he would actually feel totally betrayed - his trust in Theon was total), but he would also forgive him, because that's what family does. Theon's struggle was really a hard one. He was taken from his family at 10 years old by the man who defeated his family and killed his brothers. Granted, his brothers were not nice people (a lot like their father), but still. All his impresionable years Theon had to live among people who all saw him as an enemy, who looked down on him and never trusted him. Robb was THE ONLY ONE who didn't do that. Every time Theon witnessed Ned executing someone, he wondered if it will be his own head on the block next time. Because Theon was a hostage, not a ward like many show-watchers think. He was a safety measure to ensure his father didn't rebelled. If he did, Theon would have been executed. All Theon desperately wanted his whole life was to belong. On one hand he had his Greyjoy family who was his trueblood family, who he wanted to make proud of him, but who never loved him. On another hand he had the Stark family, who clearly loved each other, and Theon wanted to have that, too. Only, to them, he was just a hostage/ward. Safe only for Robb. He wanted to be a part of that perfect loving family, but knew that there was no place for him there. When during war, he genuinly wanted to help Robb. In his mind it would be perfect - he would help his "adoptive" brother and would make proud his real family. But the real dick his father pressured him and made him choose. From then on his road went downhill. And you know how the show made him say that Ned was his "real father who died in King's Landing"? The book doesn't have that. But Martin gave him another words: "And Robb. Robb who had been more a brother to Theon than any son born of Balon Greyjoy’s loins. Murdered at the Red Wedding, butchered by the Freys... I should have been with him. Where was I? I should have died with him."
Robb wouldn't kill someone after they had saved his little sister even after they betrayed Robb himself. He'd probably have him imprisoned still for mutiny but spare him for saving Sansa.
I doubt Robb would've been as forgiving as Jon was here. Robb was too honor-bound and arrogant, he would've followed the rules of treason 100% and executed Theon rather than hearing him out and understanding the situation he was dealing with.
John Paige Robb was closer to Theon so it's understandable if he would never forgive Theon. Jon only forgave him because of Theon saving Sansa and the truth of his brothers. If Robb had the same knowledge he possibly could have forgiven him as well simply because he was the closest to Theon
I don't think robb could ever forgive theon it was theons actions that led to the death of his wife unborn child his mother and the reason his people were ruled by the boltons robb may understand theons decisions but he could never forgive them
Rob wouldn't forgive Theon. Robb liked Jon, but you could tell he was much closer to Theon. Edward raised these two together in the hope that one day the Starks and Greyjoys would unite as one. Theon was his best friend which makes his betrayal far more egregious considering their history and the fact that Theon would double cross him in the middle of a war and for the people who cast him aside.
as i come back to this series... i think that this was THE BEST dialogue in the entire series, and has one of the strongest lines i ever heard... "i cannot forgive you for everything, but what i can forgive, i do" the power in these words, is amazing, is so well putted, because in fact, jon spoke the truth, we cannot forgive other people for every single sin they ever commited, but we can forgive them for the wrong doing they did to us, and this is the most powerful thing we can do for someone else.
Such a beautiful scene. You’d expect Jon to go mad when he was finally alone with Theon, cause that’s what you’d personally do, and that’s what it seemed like he would do after he saw Theon come to shore. But he acted like the King he is. And the wonderful human being he is. And Theon ... Gosh Alfie Allen is so underrated. The emotions on his face, when he was on the brink of tears when Jon forgave him ... This scene is so underrated
The look on Theon's face when Jon tells him he doesn't need to choose, he's a Greyjoy and a Stark.... it's as if that never occurred to him until that moment.... just another great scene.... if you really think about his position, he WAS in a tough spot... Everywhere you look, it's all about the family name, your house, and the pride and sense of home that comes with it... but you're not at your true home, you're not with your real family, instead you're forced to watch as a bystander as everyone around you hugs and loves each other, as you're constantly reminded, to your face, that this isn't YOUR house... Then to sail home, and get rejected AGAIN, and by your "real' family no less.... That's extremely painful, and so I understand why he did what he did.... He was trying to belong, for once in his life.... I wish he'd survived the Long Night.... (EDIT: He's also an amazing actor, just sayin', he pulls off every scene, every emotion.... from jealousy, to general happiness, to being tortured, to being traumatized, all of it was realistic as hell.... you'd really think he was being tortured he was so convincing.... anyway, the dude deserves some awards for his performance throughout this whole series)
“You don’t need to choose, you’re a Greyjoy and you’re a Stark.” “You don’t need to choose either Jon, you’re a Snow, you’re a Stark, you’re a Targaryen.”
This scene is one of my absolute favorites. It would have been easy for Jon to say "You were always a Stark and you still are one" and it would have been emotional. But the writing recognizes that Theon's conflict is with trying to decide which family he belongs to. So instead of just saying "You're in my family" He tells him "You're in both, Stop worrying about it brah"
When Jon said you are greyjoy and you are a Stark That inspired theon the most. When he said Yara needed him Jon told him why the hell he is still talking to him. It gave him strength to fight that's why he fought to the last to night King and didn't runaway like he used to.
Kit Harrington was very underrated actor. I love at 2:00 you see Jon get frustrated/angry for a few moments and tells Theon what he thinks. Although at 2:15 you can see Jon’s demeanor/face change and he tells Theon something good and actually forgives him. 😎🤔 This scene was one of the VERY FEW great scenes of Game Of Thrones in the last 2 seasons (seasons 7-8). 👏🏻
Poor Theon...life had to chop off his twig n berries, for him to understand his bloodline doesn't define him. Since he can't pass on his ironborn bloodline, he's basically useless as a Greyjoy, so what is he? What's left? Jon reminded him. Reminded him what their father taught them. And the spirit of Ned, we all felt through Jon Snow releasing Theon from his shame. Ned is WITH them in that moment. And it has given Theon life. Errr meh feelz!! Good. King. Jon.
Yeah, poor Theon, he was embarrassed that he couldn’t find Bran and Rickon so he decided to murdered children instead of admit he didn’t know where they were. Theon was never Ned’s son, he was a political hostage. His bloodline actually did define him, did you notice how fast he decided to murder children? That’s pure Greyjoy. There is no release from the shame of killing children.
I hope I'm not the only one who noticed the beautiful foreshadowing in this scene, particularly in Jon's statement, "You don't have to choose. You're a Stark, and you're a Greyjoy." Such amazing writing, love the subtle nods to Jon being in the same position with his heritage. It's like he's giving himself advice for the future when he deals with being both Targaryen and Stark. Amazing scene overall.
When Jon walks up after Theon says,” Stark or Greyjoy?.” Jon was like don’t👏🏽 you👏🏽ever👏🏽 question who raised you.”OUR FATHER.” you are BOTH, even with the sins you have to live with, he was your father in every way and in turn, you are a Stark.
“Betrayed his memory” had so much power in it. When I was watching episode per week…. I had to pause it and cry. Screw the haters. I’ll watch it again. Edit: Sir Davos’ loyalty to Jon in this scene is worth a tear as well.
I love how Jon and Theon never talked once, never shared a scene, and yet the actors are able to get across that these characters grew up with each other and know one another.
I think it's sweet that Jon still starts to get SO PISSED and then as soon as Theon starts to explain what he was going through the pieces click together and Jon rushes forward to comfort him. Because it's not exactly the same but he knows how that feels too.
There are of course SOOO many GREAT scenes in all of GoT! But still...I feel like this is now my absolute FAVORITE one! Strange thing really, so many other great ones...but this one moves me the most. Awsome acting! Love the tension and silence!
I have my issues with season but boy what they got right they really got right this scene is so powerful "It's not my place to forgive you for everything you've done but the for the parts that I can I do forgive you"
This is why I defend Season 7. I never try to argue that it was something fantastic, but it was still good television. This is a great scene. When the best show on TV experiences a decline in quality, it's still one of the best shows on TV. It didn't go straight into the toilet until the next season. When the writers seemingly stopped caring.
Imagine what Robb, Jon and Theon could’ve done together from the beginning.
It would be happy ending.
Not much ..... They were all "young and stupid".
Rob got the short end of the stick and didn't have time to learn. Jon and Theon got molded by the things they endured.
What they are now is because of that.
@@menecross true
@@menecross til the time of robb's death, theon and jon had it much harder still.
They would have be a great trio with time!
The dragon and kraken raised by wolves
That is the weirdest image ever
Well Jon is still a half a wolf
Casshern Sins Jon is more a wolf than a dragon
Godot Jon is half Wolf half Dragon
Ankush Chauhan he’s actually more of a dragon
"It's not in my place to forgive you for all you've done. But what I can forgive, I do."
Theon needed to hear this words. Best dialogue of the episode. Theon redemption.
A rare gem in a cesspool of muddled dialogue that was season 7. Its evident that not having GRRM in their corner, or his books, have made writing a chore for the showrunners.
+Kori Jenkens It's hilarious how Theon is basically fine physically in the show when he is massively fucked up in the books due to Ramsay's torture.
Doesn't look physically fine to me.. Compared to season one, he's a mess.. Do you want him walking with a walking stick or in a wheelchair? This screenplay redeemed season 7 dialogue screenwriters
Barstool Blues he is completely fucked up mentally. we saw that when he jumped overboard
Joshua Plotkin yeah, he should've fought Euron to save Yara even though their fleet was annihilated and he was surrounded by the enemy...Running to save his life and live to fight another day is completely mentally fucked up.
I love that Jon says OUR father. Showing he still considers Theon as a brother, as family. The lack of music just adds to the emotion you should be feeling in this scene.
he also could’ve just been referring to his siblings but i agree with you
@@joeelliott2810 I don't think so lol. Since none of them were mentioned in the conversation.
@@moeswagger2329 technically they were by theon.
Great comment!!!
It's also interesting given the fact that Theon and Robb teased and ridiculed Jon for most of his childhood for his status as a bastard but still Jon sees Theon as a brother.
NED Stark is the real meaning of father ............he raised a tragariyan and a Greyjoy along with starks giving them equal previlage as his own kids ........it’s the real proof that only the good raising can make u a good man then a good blood ........ned stark though a fictional character has shown the world how a father should be I bow to u for that
Vamshi Vijaykumar I love Ned but the Greyjoy he “raised”(held as a political hostage to ensure his father’s good behavior) murdered two children. Theon is not a good man, he’s a child killer.
@@stirlingarcher7972 theres theon before ramsey and theon after ramsey, everything that theon had done he regrets entirely
GD Tempest he murdered two innocent children because he didn’t want to be embarrassed with his inability to catch Bran and Rickon. He can regret it all he wants, he’s a child killer. He killed two little boys in cold blood. If anything the fact he was raised by Ned makes him even worse bc he knew better.
Vamshi Vijaykumar jon was his blood
The good think in Got is no warrior is innocent children like cerseis children except joffrey or the farm boys rhaegars children they all died for stupid wars Ned is a good man but he killed arthur dayne cowardly he lead a war were two of the greyjoy sons were killed he let robert order the tagaryen childrens death
Feel bad for Theon. He's so lost and confused, looking for approval from such a young age. He just needed a helping hand. Great acting and character development
MrTenacity99 I agree to an extent but he had Maester Luwin trying desperately to help him time and time again when he took control of winterfell and he just refused to listen to him repeatedly.
I completely agree with you. Viewers forget to understand that he was just 16 or 17 when he first left Rob's camp and went to Balon Greyjoy!
0 empathy
And he got his approval just before his death
He's one of my fav besides J&B
Alfie Allen's one hell of an actor
richtea87
I think Alfie better than Kit at acting. Lena Headey and Dinklage are better than Clarke. Headey is so convincing that people at the conventions can’t separate the actress from her role. Headey in person is quite charming and a goof ball
Definitely, the best of the show
🤘
@@gcs7817 Definetely agree to that, their acting is so real to me, also Nikolaj as Jaime is very complex just like Tyrion
@@swathered I don't like how Jamie just went back to being Jaime at the end of Got...
“My real father lost his head at King’s Landing.” :((
"I should have died with Robb at the Red Wedding."
Bet he wishes John Wick was this forgiving.
ChocolateRob hahahahahhaha
ChocolateRob nice one dude
Haha awesome
LOL
Hahahahahaahaha babayega
I don't know why this scene is ignored in all the reviews, it was the most touching moment of the whole episode, I honestly sobbed like a baby.
When Theon and Jon speak to each other.. I think it is the most powerful screenplay this season.
When Jon said he didnt have to choose. He was a greyjoy and a Stark. And Theons reaction. Best line in the episode.
NumberNeverLie Agree
Cause it's less memorable than the scene that comes right after this where Theon wins a fight by getting kicked in the crotch. Basically. I thought that scene was funny but yeah coming after an extremely important scene like this it may not have been the best shift in tone. Something really touching followed by an extremely cathartic but violent scene where Theon is getting his ass kicked up and down the beach (showing how strong and impervious he is to pain post-Ramsay, I guess) only to win, again, after utilizing the fact that he has no junk. So violence followed by comic relief. But yeah basically Theon died on the beach I think metaphorically and like all Kraken/Ironborn he rose again in the sea a new, better, stronger man with a new future that he now realizes is up to him to write.
As less empathy u have, less humanity u have and probably your character is not worth more than a coin. If you dont see the change in theons life and moral, as he choses to change and knows that, even if he was a stark prisioner, even if he was balon's son and heir, he sould not have betrayed then, and if you dont see his effort to become a better person... If you are ok to his suffering, because " aaah its Theon", you should see a psichologist or psichiatrist.
Neither of them is Ned's son,but they are brothers bcs Ned is their parent *-* *-*
Slay er beautifully said
+Potato neither is he of john, but Slay er is right he was their parent
"he may have been your father boy, but he wasn't your daddy"
Well said
Dead Meme was definitely a father to them in all but biologically.
Jon gave Theon back his Stark, back his Greyjoy, back his Strength and Honour . Best scene ever. Jon will have to make the same decision or accept the same duality soon and the fact that he showed such compassion for Theon will serve him well.
Bet he'd rather have his cock back though!
robert fenton Old Theon would. But now Theon has became much wiser.
What if Theon is the one who reminds him of that? that would be awesome!
I know I would LOL
What is a cock if you are not a man? The sweetest love is a man with courage, love, humour and integrity. Some men think cock is all, joyfully cock is not all, at best it's a bonus, but the best men and women are simply good people.
" He is a part of you , just like he is a part of me. " Ned is standing proud and crying listening to his boys in the afterlife , gosh I hoped Gendry had more moments with Ned so that he could feel this connection.
Gendry was Baratheon’s bastard
@@mannyhp6717 Wouldn't be surprised if ned took him as either a ward, essentially adopting him. Had what happened didn't happen.... You know what I mean
Not really Ned left him and his siblings where he found them he raised Greyjoy and snow out of duty and came to care for them in his way
Jon is the closest to Ned than the other Stark children. And Ned is not even his father. I dont know why but it warms my heart. The bastard is the fittest to be the heir
Ned Stark may not be Jon Snow's father, but he'll always be his daddy
Rhaegar might have been your father boy but he wasnt your daddy "
Lorenzo Escudero King no Robb was the closest son to Ned because of his honor
Well, Ned married Catlyn, the woman he was assigned to marry, Robb on the other hand didnt so maybe they're not that similar
@_Nhokz _ they were both just as honorable, but Jon showed more of Ned's characteristics of how we knew him in season 1, Robb showed more what a young Ned could've been
Without knowing it, Jon Snow's great monologue was as useful for himself as it was for Theon. "You dont have to choose. You're a Greyjoy and you're a Stark." Indeed. Jon is a Stark and Jon is a Targaryen.
Jon Snow is not targerian
Ageon targerian is his name 😎
@@neelparekh1759 he is half stark so he is both.
@@red2977 😅 i don't remember finite details, will have to watch it again 😅😅
@@neelparekh1759 his mother is Lyanna Stark, and his father is Rhaegar Targaryen.
Half Stark + half Targaryen 😎
@@esotericintrovert1669 i remember that 😅
Great scene. Kit killed this one and give Alfie Allen an Emmy already damit
SilverSauce The Emmys are a popularity contest. Which means that Alfie Allen and Charles Dance were doomed to fail from the beginning, since everyone is in love with the crappy actor and actress Kit and Emma
Kit is not a crappy actor lol. And Emelia (I guess you meant her) isn't the best of the best, but she improves every season! And yes, Charles and Alfie and many more are maybe better actors then them, but they are certainly not crappy!
Being in the entertainment business that involves all the tv shows and movies and stuff it is literally the only profession where you get yearly awards that are worth so much just for doing your job.
Justice Emilia is kinda awful. Watch her act in other things where she’s not surrounded by cgi that makes her look badass, she can’t act. She completely ruined Me Before You.
Exactly
Alfie Allen is so fucking good.
Yeah, I think he is one of the best characters is GOT.
Theon in the show is the only character I like more than the books.
Love him 😍
Yeah his acting was almost perfect even when he was reek he played the role so well
And his sister's fit.
Jon acknowledges that Theon is a Stark, thereby winning his loyalty and gratitude forever. Robb failed to do that, saying the Starks was not Theon's house. Jon also had the pragmatism to forgive the Umbers and Kastark for their treason, thereby bringing the house into the fold for the long night. Robb followed the punishment of treason to the letter, thereby alienating the Kastark and losing an important ally. Just an observation.
A great observation at that. Jon has one major thing over Robb, integrity. Robb was a good man, but he wasn't a leader. Jon puts people a head of himself, regardless of what they've done. That's why he is a true King and has many allies like Daenerys.
Incredible Jake Robb wasn't a good leader that's crap no offense but he united the north at a younger age and gained the respect of seasoned northern lords. People let the red wedding skew their views of Robbs traits when he was one of the best rulers in the series who had the plot against his favor
Good point. Don't get me wrong, I liked Robb and the Red Wedding (in-universe) was unacceptable. But Robb also made a lot of clueless choices like killing Lord Kastark. But The North shouldn't remember him like that. The North remembers, but didn't care.
robb like stark were examples of being too stern 'letter-of-the law'. Other rulers like Joffrey examples of the opposite ...being capricious.The best rulers i think GRRM wants us to see are those who keep balance between mercy and wrath.
Incredible Jake Robb couldnt plan ahead
I've been waiting for this confrontation more than I was for Jon and Dany. When he said "Our father" the biggest smile stretched across my face because he still sees him as his brother.
it's kinda bs though. Theon merced like fifty innocent people taking Winterfell, including women and children. Book Jon will straight up shank a bitch when he sees him, and it will be the wedge that makes him fight Stannis.
@@jacobenke7936 depends on how he changed after death.
“You’re a good man. Thank you.”
Probably the most anti-climactic line for the ending of a character's arc ever written. Hell, all of Bran's lines are rubbish after season 6.
Oh damn you put me in my feels with that!
WHY?!!! ...sobs in a corner for days...
Brian Fitzsimmons I loved that line, but I can see where you're coming from, in my opinion apart from Brienne being knighted Bran calling Theon a good man is the only good scene in season 8
People say Jon Snow of the show is boring and stupid but honestly I think the simplicity of his character is really endearing. He’s not flashy, witty and cool like Danaerys or Tyrion or Arya (at their best) he’s just a humble, straight forward guy trying to do the right thing. I think that’s really unique for a main character in this day and age.
Best comment.
I also hate when people call him boring or stupid. Jon is an inspiration because he beat the odds of being labeled a bastard who got sent to the wall. He wasn’t blessed with any particular extraordinary gifts, yes he’s a great fighter but even he says Robb was better. He defended those who couldn’t fight for themselves (Sam), never judged those who were different than him (free folk), and earned the trust of those around him with bravery and just plain decency. He’s a great example of how courage and doing the right thing can get you far in life. He’s probably the most human character in the show because of that.
@@sftheletters yeah exactly. Everything he has it feels like he earns.
I absolutely love this thread. Jon snow is one of the best characters written on television and has a beautiful story.
I've never heard anybody call him boring and stupid. Maybe a bit dumb when it comes to being too honorable, and he wasn't good at playing the game because of it just like Ned, but he wasn't a fan favorite for nothing. It's only the writers that made him a fucking dimwitted idiot in the 8th season.
Best example of tough love i've seen in a while.
Was this "tough"? It just seemed kind, caring, understanding, and attentive.
Jon could have probably done anything at all to Theon at this point, and basically nobody would have batted an eye. The guy betrayed both his families and got tonnes of people from each side killed, abused, and captured, after all.
Instead, Jon let Theon talk, listened attentively, forgave him for what he could, accepted him back into the Starks, and quietly supported him in the choice he had to make (to save Yara).
He didn't sugar-coat anything, no- but saccharine is really just as fake and self-serving as vengeance.
Just..
@@neolexiousneolexian6079 It also should be noted that the Starks are not his family and he didn't betray them since Robb is the only one that trusted him.
@@augustusfreeman4032 he bent the knee to Robb so he betrayed Robb but not the starks
This is....not tough at all, considered what Theon did to them.
@@vishaansingh1019 Tough love and punishment aren't the same thing.
The Kraken and the Dragon in Wolf's clothing.
Nah. I read it in a fanfic where they found another one direwolf pup and called him Squid)) "A direwolf called Squid" - for me, it suits Theon so much more)))
Jon is more Wolf than dragon, tbh.
Catelyn is the one to blame. Ned tried to raise both Jon and Theon as Starks but Catelyn always treated Robb and Sansa differently than the rest of her kids. Robb saying to Theon that he isnt a part of their family or Jon and Theon being excluded from feasts is 100% Catelyns doing. Robb and Sansa are only entitled because they have the same Tully features Cat has.
Sansa was raised by Cat and Arya by Ned: In the first book you got the younger sister fighting the enemies of her family, standing up for the poor and weak and being very smart by fleeing the Castle. While Arya shows courage, cunning and empathy, her older sister, raised by Catelyn, literally snitched on her family to become Queen. She didnt even do it because she was pressured by Cersei and the small council: Sansa actually anticipated that by telling Cersei, Joffrey will either send her father to the wall or to exile. At the end nobody wouldve thought that Joffrey would kill him, but Sansa is the catalyst for Neds death and House Starks destruction. Catelyn kinda deserved the Red Wedding...
I wouldn’t blame it all on her. Yes she wasn’t as great of a mother as she should’ve been, especially when it came to Jon, but honestly, her anger towards Jon is realistic. If your husband comes home with another woman’s baby, and basically ignores your feelings about it all, that’s gonna build up resentment and anger, even if the child doesn’t deserve it. Cat knows this, at least in the show, but she can’t bring herself to act and make amends with Jon or herself.
As for Sansa, Cat wasn’t to blame for Sansa’s decisions, Sansa was. Of course she was young and naïve, and both Cersei and Varys manipulated her into getting what they wanted, while making it appear that Sansa was doing the right thing. Blame that all on Catelyn is unfair, even if she does share some blame in it.
Lmao the catelyn hate is ridiculous. I definitely think she overdid it but she had a very good reason not to treat jon as a stark. He is a bastard, but eddard presented him as his bastard which makes him a rival to her own children whether he likes it or not. When aegon IV treated daemon blackfyre as a targaryen, 5 civil wars happened. Even if jon himself wouldn't oppose robb, his children or even lords whom just have a bone to pick with robb, could easily start shit.
@@mappingshaman5280but why hate a baby who didn’t ask for it
@@acrazysheepdog1555but why should she hate children who didn’t have or want parts of this she should’ve been a better person and mother figure
Theron is becoming really my favourite character. His journey keeps changing and he keeps growing and struggling. What a great character arch!
James Fergisson what the Fucks a theron?
Who needs a good character arc when they have a nicely shaped arch
If Theon is your favorite character and you haven’t read the books then READ THE BOOKS. His chapters are the best!
mine too
Alfie Allen deserves an Emmy Nomination
2:50 - "You don't need to choose. You're Greyjoy.
And you're Stark."
Robb's spirit approves.
Snow Robb would have hung theon... so no...
Robb is the one who literally told Theon he WASN’T a Stark…that he was less than. If he had been more kind and familial, Theon would’ve never chosen his ass of a father over the Starks.
@@jenniferkhan3686 Robb told Theon that because Theon would always talk about how he was prince Theon Greyjoy and the air to the iron islands, he always went out of his way to let people know who he was, he literally had the blacksmith put a krackon (symbol of the Greyjoy house) on his armour, why should Robb acknowledge someone as part of house stark who literally goes out of their way to let people know that the stark house wasnt his house? make it make sense. I would also like to add that Robb was the only stark who ACTUALLY treated Theon as family and like a brother. Theon would have dreams of marrying Sansa just so that he would be Robb's brother by marriage. He loved Robb.
I was thinking about Robb in this scene. The feelings.
Robb would be like "he has to die."
and that's why he's not as good of a king as Jon is.
Tobi Oduntan Robb would forgive Theon to if he learned he never killed Bran and Rickon and saved Sansa
Robb is always on my mind when I see Jon carrying on without him.
The810kid no I think he'd definitely kill. I can imagine Robb saying something like " you may have saved my sister and spared my brothers, but you still betrayed the North and helped put hundreds of northmen to the sword. I sentence you to die"
I like that Theon never says "Sorry." It would feel too cheap. But they talk about their actions, the good and the bad, and they eventually reach a consensus.
Great writing.
I just loved how Jon said “our father” before he even told Theon that he was a stark
The last few seasons certainly had lots of issues...but the show 100% nailed Theon. Alfie absolutely nailed the role and deserves all the credit in the world for the amazing job he did.
Theon is one of the few characters whose arc remained decent until the very end, he's up there as my favorite character alongside Jaime and Stannis.
correct.I knew he'd probably "have to die" to redeem himself but I cried like a baby when he did. I loved Theon. He was so human at his core. I also would have loved to have seen his and Sansas relationship develop....
I love Theon so much. He is one of my favorite character on the show. He deserves some happiness even if this is Games of thrones LOL
Jon´s words gave him some. I love Jon for it.
He doesn’t have a dick
if you think this has a happy ending you haven't been paying attention
I think the kids Theon killed deserved happiness, Theon deserved everything he got because he murdered children.
Lmaooooo he died last night
Theon: she needs me now
Jon: so why are you still talking to me?
Theon: (great, now is my chance to ask him for help) well the thing is...
Jon already left the room.
Theon: ...
arkbuble who's Theon talking about?
@@reezy69 Yara, his qister
Lol
This was such a great emotional scene between two old friends. Jon was able to compromise and seeing that finding forgiveness is better than holding onto hate. Theon will begin anew towards his redemption, and be much stronger than when he was.
Jon was never friends with Theon, Theon was Robb's friend.
Yeah. Jon thought Theon was a Dbag in the books.
mmalovr57 Theon is a Dbag, he’s a child killer. I hate that the show makes him so sympathetic. This is basically an alternate universe, that’s how I think of it, it’s the only way to not get pissed at the show’s shitty characterization.
@@stirlingarcher7972 Dude after enduring Ramsay EVERYONE is sympathetic.
Facundo Gonza dude, after murdering children, Ramsay was a well earned punishment.
What makes Theon such a great character and one of the best in GOT is he’s incredibly relatable. Always seeking approval, confused about identity, unsure of if the decisions he’s making are the right ones. A lost soul who just needed guidance from the right person. His story is incredible and makes me tear up.
That “You’re a Greyjoy and a Stark” line works so well, not just for Theon, but for Jon as well (knowing his Targaryen parentage will most likely come up down the line)
Thought they hit a home run the moment this scene concluded. These kind of scenes were too far and few in this season. But I'm glad these two gave us a reminder of great acting and great WRITING (even in small instances post S5). Alfie was given such little screen time but he almost steals every scene without even trying.
My absolute favorite scene in the entire season. So powerful! "What I can forgive, I do" beautiful
I absolutely loved this scene. They both did an excellent job. The dialogue,the emotions were just superb. Really pulled at my heartstrings.
This scene gave me goosebumps
More than the meeting at dragonpit
Great acting especially from alfie allen
From the moment this aired, I have said and still say- the BEST scene in the series. Obviously, the redemption of Theon is huge, but this is JON being KING, being a BROTHER, and being NED incarnate. Jon holds no grudges and offer wise counsel rarely seen from a mentor thrice his age.
This world is built on thousands of years of history and politics and magic and wonder. This world is shared with us through the life experiences of this particular generation. This world is full of countless important heroes and villains and gray characters of all sorts and stripes. This world is full of Grumpkins and Snarks. But make no mistake- the most important character in the story has always been NED STARK. Many others did greater deeds or fought greater battles or manipulated greater events, but... But.. Eddard's interpretation of honor and his commitment to family shape Each of the characters so strongly that the ends are a foregone conclusion.
I love that the original title for the last book was A Time For Wolves... I wonder if it's a bad sign that he changed it
Theon is back, bitches. Theon will rule the Iron Islands, I fucking guarantee it.
Nah! He's just Reek and he always will be :)
Nobody will be in the Iron Islands when he gets there because Euron actually went to Essos. Besides, what's Theon gonna do with one boat again the Iron Fleet? Theon is as good as dead.
The Cockless King Greyjoy
Max Jr he is supporting and supported by the most powerful military force in Westeros. He is far from dead yet.
robert fenton Dude. Are you not seeing the evolution here? You will not call him "reek", you will call him Theon Starkjoy.
Emmy for Alfie Allen.
The ability to forgive someone is so powerful. I think more than anything else Theon wants, more than any other individual thing on the planet, is forgiveness. And he wants to atone for all of the critical mistakes he's made in his life. This is why Jon Snow would make one of the greatest kings of all time, certainly in Westerosi history, because as much as he wanted to kill Theon up front for the damage he's done to the Stark family, he realizes the inherent power in empathy and forgiveness. He would rule with both strength and justice in mind. The easy thing would be to kill Theon for what he did. But in forgiving Theon, Theon now has a newfound sense of duty and pride instilled in him as having been accepted back into the "family" again so to speak. So on Jon's insistence, Theon and perhaps everyone else who comes in contact with him will go out into the world to spread more and more peace, prosperity and goodwill. Forgiveness is an extremely powerful thing.
Jjjj
Unfortunately the writers fucked everything up smh
RIP THEON. HE WENT OUT LIKE A BOSS 😭💪🏽
“So why are you still talking to me?” The Stark way of encouraging/approving 👌🏼
The best writing in this episode. And excellent acting, English guys :)
Not just this episode but this entire season.. Emotional, powerful and GoT did it without any blood..
This scene, along with Cersei and Tyrion's, are definitely the standouts of this episode.
Weird of you to specify their nationality but ok...
“You don’t need to choose. You’re a Greyjoy, and you’re a Stark.”
I think if Theon had just realized that from the beginning, perhaps he wouldn’t have gone down the path that he did😢.
He wasnt completely wrong in feeling as he did , they may have been close as brothers but rob and others kept reminding him that he wasn't a stark
jon's like... "god I want to keep hating you and I have every reason to keep hating you ... but you're not defending yourself at all so I guess I have to stop hating you :/"
Jon-I've done plenty of things I regret.
Theon- Not compared to me you haven't.
Jon- No. Not compared you too. I heard about John Wick's dog.
... And yet people say he knows nothing.
Ur muh kwean
As someone who grew up in foster care this! This right here will always be my favourite part of this show. The bonds of blood mean nothing compared to the bonds of Family
They are both so fucking good in this scene!!! It’s one of the best of the season, if not the whole series.
Theon wanted to be accepted he wanted to be loved and he was taken and put into a family that he grew to love and he lost his way. When Ramsey took him he lost everything
One of my favorite scenes from this past season. Jon was compassionate, yet just and I love that he gave Theon his blessing to go find his sister.
This scene hits you in the heart. Theon's redemption is one of the most emotional parts of the story. I love that Jon was the one to have this conversation with him. I saw that someone else said Jon is the most like Ned and in some ways I agree. I think that Jon has the most compassion and what Theon was in need of was compassion, an answer to his identity question, forgiveness and to be told that he is still their family. This is one of the few things that the writers got right in the last 2 seasons....really 3. Alfie deserves an award for this role if he hasn't gotten one. The emotions on his face literally brought tears to my eyes.
Great scene, great acting
I kinda feel sad that Jon didn't mention Robb even once after becoming the king.
Jon has had tunnel vision since he's been reborn or at least that's how he's been written because I also find it hard to believe that he hasn't even mention Robb once
Yes, but Robb failed at being King, and there's a division even in the North of blaming him or mourning him. If I were Jon, at least right now as he's establishing his rule, that's not a debate I'd want to enter. He can neither defend Robb's choices or condemn them. Better to leave that wound to heal a while and not pick at it.
Gotta love the subtle change of Jon's facial expression when Theon mentions Ramsay.
I hadn't noticed that before. Nice little bit of acting from Kit there. A slight narrowing of the eyes and hardening of the features.
And think about why that is. Jon's emotions change and he becomes angry at the mere mention of Sansa from another man or the mention of those men who hurt her. Even when Tyrion mentions the sham marriage Jon suddenly gets uncomfortable. Jon's love for Sansa is an undying, unconditional devoted love. And his hatred for men that hurt her burns with a dragons fire.
And this is why Jon will always be a better king than Rob. Rob would've killed him instead of listening and understanding
Bahraini Gooner Robb was closer to Theon than any one in the Starks he most likely would have forgave him if he had the same knowledge Jon did. Last Robb knew of Theon was him at his worst had he learned every thing Theon did after season 2 and endured he would have buried the grudge.
Theon and Robb was like best friends. They were close and always played together. Northerners all were weary of Theon and didn't trust him, but not Robb - Rob admired him from the moment he met him at 5 years old (Theon was 10). Theon and Jon were never close - they had a competetive streak, because of the similarity of their positions in the Stark household. Robb and Theon - it's safe to say that they loved each other like brothers. It makes all that Theon did that much more heartbreaking. If Robb was in Jon's place right now, he would be much more angry (because he would actually feel totally betrayed - his trust in Theon was total), but he would also forgive him, because that's what family does. Theon's struggle was really a hard one. He was taken from his family at 10 years old by the man who defeated his family and killed his brothers. Granted, his brothers were not nice people (a lot like their father), but still. All his impresionable years Theon had to live among people who all saw him as an enemy, who looked down on him and never trusted him. Robb was THE ONLY ONE who didn't do that. Every time Theon witnessed Ned executing someone, he wondered if it will be his own head on the block next time. Because Theon was a hostage, not a ward like many show-watchers think. He was a safety measure to ensure his father didn't rebelled. If he did, Theon would have been executed. All Theon desperately wanted his whole life was to belong. On one hand he had his Greyjoy family who was his trueblood family, who he wanted to make proud of him, but who never loved him. On another hand he had the Stark family, who clearly loved each other, and Theon wanted to have that, too. Only, to them, he was just a hostage/ward. Safe only for Robb. He wanted to be a part of that perfect loving family, but knew that there was no place for him there.
When during war, he genuinly wanted to help Robb. In his mind it would be perfect - he would help his "adoptive" brother and would make proud his real family. But the real dick his father pressured him and made him choose. From then on his road went downhill.
And you know how the show made him say that Ned was his "real father who died in King's Landing"?
The book doesn't have that.
But Martin gave him another words:
"And Robb. Robb who had been more a brother to Theon than any son born of Balon Greyjoy’s loins. Murdered at the Red Wedding, butchered by the Freys... I should have been with him. Where was I? I should have died with him."
+Вероника Столетняя
Great explanation, the characters are sooo good on this show (and in the books)
Robb wouldn't kill someone after they had saved his little sister even after they betrayed Robb himself. He'd probably have him imprisoned still for mutiny but spare him for saving Sansa.
They both are worse.He should have killed Theon.
Robb was floating in the air 100% in here and he forgave Theon a long ago too.
I doubt Robb would've been as forgiving as Jon was here. Robb was too honor-bound and arrogant, he would've followed the rules of treason 100% and executed Theon rather than hearing him out and understanding the situation he was dealing with.
John Paige Robb was closer to Theon so it's understandable if he would never forgive Theon. Jon only forgave him because of Theon saving Sansa and the truth of his brothers. If Robb had the same knowledge he possibly could have forgiven him as well simply because he was the closest to Theon
I don't think robb could ever forgive theon it was theons actions that led to the death of his wife unborn child his mother and the reason his people were ruled by the boltons robb may understand theons decisions but he could never forgive them
Rob wouldn't forgive Theon. Robb liked Jon, but you could tell he was much closer to Theon. Edward raised these two together in the hope that one day the Starks and Greyjoys would unite as one. Theon was his best friend which makes his betrayal far more egregious considering their history and the fact that Theon would double cross him in the middle of a war and for the people who cast him aside.
as i come back to this series... i think that this was THE BEST dialogue in the entire series, and has one of the strongest lines i ever heard... "i cannot forgive you for everything, but what i can forgive, i do" the power in these words, is amazing, is so well putted, because in fact, jon spoke the truth, we cannot forgive other people for every single sin they ever commited, but we can forgive them for the wrong doing they did to us, and this is the most powerful thing we can do for someone else.
Such a beautiful scene. You’d expect Jon to go mad when he was finally alone with Theon, cause that’s what you’d personally do, and that’s what it seemed like he would do after he saw Theon come to shore. But he acted like the King he is. And the wonderful human being he is. And Theon ... Gosh Alfie Allen is so underrated. The emotions on his face, when he was on the brink of tears when Jon forgave him ... This scene is so underrated
Starkjoy
Greyark
Tommy Vercetti Harvard should give you a scholarship for your problem solving
The look on Theon's face when Jon tells him he doesn't need to choose, he's a Greyjoy and a Stark.... it's as if that never occurred to him until that moment.... just another great scene.... if you really think about his position, he WAS in a tough spot... Everywhere you look, it's all about the family name, your house, and the pride and sense of home that comes with it... but you're not at your true home, you're not with your real family, instead you're forced to watch as a bystander as everyone around you hugs and loves each other, as you're constantly reminded, to your face, that this isn't YOUR house... Then to sail home, and get rejected AGAIN, and by your "real' family no less.... That's extremely painful, and so I understand why he did what he did.... He was trying to belong, for once in his life.... I wish he'd survived the Long Night....
(EDIT: He's also an amazing actor, just sayin', he pulls off every scene, every emotion.... from jealousy, to general happiness, to being tortured, to being traumatized, all of it was realistic as hell.... you'd really think he was being tortured he was so convincing.... anyway, the dude deserves some awards for his performance throughout this whole series)
“You don’t need to choose, you’re a Greyjoy and you’re a Stark.”
“You don’t need to choose either Jon, you’re a Snow, you’re a Stark, you’re a Targaryen.”
Everyone: you know nothing Jon Snow.
Theon: Jon always knew what to do.
This is like the only scene in Season 7 (and 8) where Jon is A: Written like Jon and B: Kit is actually putting effort into acting.
This scene is one of my absolute favorites. It would have been easy for Jon to say "You were always a Stark and you still are one" and it would have been emotional. But the writing recognizes that Theon's conflict is with trying to decide which family he belongs to. So instead of just saying "You're in my family" He tells him "You're in both, Stop worrying about it brah"
Alfie Allen played the role of a tortured soul to perfection ! Had me feeling nothing but compassion for Theon towards the end ..
When Jon said you are greyjoy and you are a Stark
That inspired theon the most.
When he said Yara needed him Jon told him why the hell he is still talking to him. It gave him strength to fight that's why he fought to the last to night King and didn't runaway like he used to.
ONE OF MY FAVORITE SCENES EVER 💔💔💔 Watching this for like three times now after Theon's Moment in Season 8, Episode 3.
♡♡♡ THEON
Kit Harrington was very underrated actor. I love at 2:00 you see Jon get frustrated/angry for a few moments and tells Theon what he thinks. Although at 2:15 you can see Jon’s demeanor/face change and he tells Theon something good and actually forgives him. 😎🤔
This scene was one of the VERY FEW great scenes of Game Of Thrones in the last 2 seasons (seasons 7-8). 👏🏻
Poor Theon...life had to chop off his twig n berries, for him to understand his bloodline doesn't define him. Since he can't pass on his ironborn bloodline, he's basically useless as a Greyjoy, so what is he? What's left?
Jon reminded him. Reminded him what their father taught them. And the spirit of Ned, we all felt through Jon Snow releasing Theon from his shame. Ned is WITH them in that moment. And it has given Theon life. Errr meh feelz!!
Good. King. Jon.
Yeah, poor Theon, he was embarrassed that he couldn’t find Bran and Rickon so he decided to murdered children instead of admit he didn’t know where they were. Theon was never Ned’s son, he was a political hostage. His bloodline actually did define him, did you notice how fast he decided to murder children? That’s pure Greyjoy. There is no release from the shame of killing children.
remdemtion,forgiveness and courage.. that really is good.. thanks 4 reminding.. it felt good.. thanks a lot
it help me..
I hope I'm not the only one who noticed the beautiful foreshadowing in this scene, particularly in Jon's statement, "You don't have to choose. You're a Stark, and you're a Greyjoy." Such amazing writing, love the subtle nods to Jon being in the same position with his heritage. It's like he's giving himself advice for the future when he deals with being both Targaryen and Stark. Amazing scene overall.
whenever i need a good cry, i come here
When Jon walks up after Theon says,” Stark or Greyjoy?.” Jon was like don’t👏🏽 you👏🏽ever👏🏽 question who raised you.”OUR FATHER.” you are BOTH, even with the sins you have to live with, he was your father in every way and in turn, you are a Stark.
“Betrayed his memory” had so much power in it. When I was watching episode per week…. I had to pause it and cry. Screw the haters. I’ll watch it again.
Edit: Sir Davos’ loyalty to Jon in this scene is worth a tear as well.
I love how Jon and Theon never talked once, never shared a scene, and yet the actors are able to get across that these characters grew up with each other and know one another.
Watch season 1 episode 1
they did share a scene bro
This was the best scene of the whole season. Absolutely beautiful. I have tears in my eyes years later.
Theon honestly earned his spot back in the pack! 🐺🐺🐺🐺
Kit and Alfie’s acting here was amazing, I loved their dialogue. Theon needed that talk from Jon.
The wisdom of a wolf.
Theon was one of the few characters they didn't butcher. He had such great character development
One of the very few outstanding scene from the later seasons.
This is such a beautiful scene. Every piece of dialogue, every expression.
Scenes like these are why I want Jon back
Holy schitt.....
Ned was the father of wolves, krakens AND DRAGONS.
Let that sink in....
I think it's sweet that Jon still starts to get SO PISSED and then as soon as Theon starts to explain what he was going through the pieces click together and Jon rushes forward to comfort him. Because it's not exactly the same but he knows how that feels too.
John is king he never wanted it that's why he's so different from everyone else..x x 💛
Some heavy foreshadowing going on here. You don't need to choose. Wolf and Dragon
There are of course SOOO many GREAT scenes in all of GoT!
But still...I feel like this is now my absolute FAVORITE one! Strange thing really, so many other great ones...but this one moves me the most. Awsome acting! Love the tension and silence!
I have my issues with season but boy what they got right they really got right this scene is so powerful "It's not my place to forgive you for everything you've done but the for the parts that I can I do forgive you"
Theon knows the true meaning of pain and the evils of man. It was sad watching the show and seeing how his trauma was trivialized by others.
This was a great scene. If anyone could understand what it felt like to be on the periphery of the Starks, but never being one of them, its Jon.
Theon had the best character development, so sad
This is why I defend Season 7. I never try to argue that it was something fantastic, but it was still good television. This is a great scene. When the best show on TV experiences a decline in quality, it's still one of the best shows on TV. It didn't go straight into the toilet until the next season. When the writers seemingly stopped caring.
“Rise declaring your full name, Theonion Stark Industries Greyjoy.”
“Thank you, Jonathan Snowmobile.”