One correction NC...Leto II and Ghanima were not pre-born, if I remember correctly...they were both born with KH abilities however...I agree that Jessica should be in Part 3, because it seemed to me that Jessica was going mad herself at the end of Part 2...or maybe 'possessed', as you said....and if anybody is concerned about Alia not getting enough screen time, I wouldn't worry about that...ATJ takes over the screen whenever she appears, and I'm sure she will get plenty of time 🙂
I really hope Denis and friends stick the landing for DUNE 3, this will go down as one of the best trilogies of all time. Getting Alia right is going to be critical for the last entry
He stated he isnt interested in adapting it if it's not going to be significantly bigger than the first 2. Hes the only dir who I'd believe when they say that. Given the absolute financial success of part 2 I have no doubt WB will throw boats of money at him to give him all the resources he needs
Considering how rich the stories and the lore are. I don't expect Denis to please all of us. But if we don't get more of the spacing guild in the next film, I will riot! lol.
I’m going to chip in and cast that the spacing guild and the Bene Tleilax will take up the majority of the next movie as the main conspirators. I can’t speak for the rest
You guys obsessed with the Spacing Guild (for some reason...in the first 3 books they're basically an intergalactic taxi service, well in the background) will no doubt see Edric the Navigator.....conspiring, and possibly getting executed at the end...and most likely, that's it...just trying to warn you in advance, so we don't hear y'all outraged after Part 3 (like the Sardaukar fanboys after Part 2) complaining the Spacing Guild was 'under-used' or 'nerfed'
I still have issues with the changes made to Dune pt.1-2, but the Paul being the one to slay the Baron was a good one. It's was well done besides the part where Paul still had his mask on and even saying "hello grandfather", the Baron doesn't know who this man is or the relationship he really has with him before he dies. He could've connected the dots during the conversation with Shaddam before the battle but even if he figured out Muadib is Paul, he still doesn't know that Paul is actually his grandson. In the books and in the movie, they never state he knew that Lady Jessica is his daughter. All he had to do was lower his mask and then say the kickass line, "You die like an animal." Chef's kiss 🤌
@salaha7776 Yeaa, besides from that little moment, the scene itself was perfect. One of the few times a change made from the book that is actually better.
@@austinguthrie5528 I'm pretty sure the Baron figured it out. You can kind of see the realization on his face just before Paul kills him. Plus, he would have known Paul's voice, and there were rumors that Paul Atreides was still alive. The Baron isn't an idiot. You can see when the Emperor is interrogating him that the idea that Muad'Dib is dead is a foregone conclusion because the southern storms are so powerful. He surely remembered sending Paul and Jessica into the desert to die but not technically killing them so he couldn't be interrogated by the Bene Gesserit. So he may not have put two and two together beforehand, but when Paul says "grandfather," he likely pieced it together as his mind was clearly working fast before he died. Rewatch the scene and you can see his realization.
@d-_-b8558 You're probably right. He was pretty smart and constantly making plans within plans he probably would've sus it out about Paul/Muad'Dib connection. Crazy to think he would've had like 3 revelations in one with a single phrase from the man who kills him. Tall about a wombo combo
I agree. The book makes clear that the Baron was familiar with Paul prior to the overthrow of the Atreides, and his eyes widen momentarily before Paul administers the coup de grâce. He's realizing that he in fact failed to end the Atreides line. Great acting by Stellan Skarsgård.
Alia is one of my favorite characters and yes, I was disappointed when she was left out of the movie. You're spot on with your analysis, again. It will be a tragedy if she isn't a focal point in the next adaptation. I can never get enough of your informative posts! Makes my day. Thank you for your continued work!
I know I mentioned this before Alia is a complex individual who as an adult is somewhat cruel but is always wanting you can't help but to feel sorry for her. I always wondered why didn't her mother train her to help her deal with the memories. Denis dropped the ball when it came to Alia I don't know if he can pull a Sand Worm out of the hat and fix it I loved the tv mini series Frank Herbert's Dune and The Children of Dune special effect were crap but that didn't matter I am a special effects snob but when it comes to Dune the story is the most important part. Thank you for the video I have a lore achieve on my computer of all of your Dune videos I love them all keep it up.
Villeneuve has done an amazing job of balancing the books and what's possible on screen. I trust him to give us another great installment in the Dune series.
If Denis wants to include the Duncan-Alia romance subplot, some kind of Spice-induced accelerated ageing is a must, in my mind. And Alia finally succumbing to possession and the Baron’s return as an ego-memory would be great to see
I agree, Elaine, that Dune Part II made several foundational changes to story and I don't see how, after making changes of this scope to Alia, that we get the story treatment that many of us want and expect. I don't buy the "Villeneuve did his best" narrative as Alia's story and influence wasn't as self-contained as, for example, LOTR's Tom Bombadil and this handling of Alia reduces the rich tapestry of the books.
Although I wish Denis had hewn closer to the novel's portrayal of Alia, I was fascinated by the movie's version of her. Unborn, frightened, intelligent, wise, and imprisoned. This made her a far more sympathetic character. Despite having painted himself into a corner Denis has a great opportunity to expound on Alia's tragic existence but I fear the other conundrum he created with Paul and Chani will diminish her screen time.
Denis' Dune looks amazing onscreen, no denying that, I just wish it was a bit more faithful to the source material. No baby Alia, No Guild navigator, No foreshadowing of Dr. Yeoh being the traitor, and oh yeah, btw we're also gonna let Paul get stabbed, not once, but twice.
A few thoughts: 1. I wouldn't hold my breath for Alia being referred to as St. Alia of the Knife. It could be added if they show her participating in the Jihad, but it is one of those details that that can easily be omitted in an adaptation. 2. Fans who haven't read the novels are going to expect action. This will almost certainly be done by showing battles in the Jihad. 3. Resolving Paul and Chani's relationship is almost certainly going to take priority over Alia and Duncans. 4. Considering that this will be Villeneuve's last Dune film, he may be more inclined to wrap up the trilogy than set the stage for future films. He is a Dune fan, but I don't know how far into the series his fandom goes. 2.
I just discovered your channel recently and am loving it so much!! I watched Dune 2 last night for the first time finally and then watched about another 3 hours of your Dune content afterwards!! Please keep these videos coming - I particularly enjoy the ones about the small details of the story that you cover such as the arena guards in Feyd’s arena scene, the sacrifices and rituals of the Sardaukar and the Bene Tleilax!!
We really need St. Alia of the Knife in the continuing Dune adaptations, first as a visible focus of the growing fanaticism of the Atreides rule, and eventually to embody both internal political and supernatural spice-fueled dangers in the continuing story. By now we've got a lot of characters though. Stuff got cut from Part 1 and Part 2, what will get cut from Messiah?
I wonder if her and Feyd Rautha's daughter will fight in Dune Messiah. I understand that that was in one of his sons novels, but the way Part Two was, Denis may have set such an event up. 🤷 Makes sense.
Villeneuve said he wouldn't do DUNE III unless it would be even better. Thanks to the cast, that's nearly impossible. He hired a lot of people for their (social media) fame, not for their craft. DUNE is one of my favorite recent movies, mostly for the story and visuals, but I have mixed feelings about it because of the cast. Ferguson is fantastic-her acting and stage presence are top-notch. However, I can't take Zendaya, Joy, and Pugh seriously. Then there's Aquaman. I kept waiting for him to yell 'MyMan! He was all over the place, mostly flying high. Walken seemed like he was about to crack a weird joke or start dancing to Fatboy Slim, his acting was def missed some cow bells. Chalamet did well in parts, especially in the beginning, but the final fight scene looked more like a school brawl than a battle for the fate of the Galaxy. Not sure the 3rd will be much better by adding Joy as Alia, but hope that the visuals make up for some loss.
Anya Taylor Joy and Florence Pugh are seasoned actresses and can actually carry a film; their filmographies are a testament to that. Zendaya cannot fucking act. I literally laughed during the sex scene between her and Paul. I've literally gone to calling her Chendaya because she's not Chani. And Chani's supposed to be redheaded.
@@wiinterflowers4277 Well we disagree w that first part. Their fame is built on social media hype and a vocal minority of simps and feminists who thinks their nipple and ass hanging out on the red carpet is something to celebrate over talent, character, style. I'd throw Ma'Man Momoa in there too. Countless unknown actors could outperform these overhyped stars if given the chance, but they’re overlooked for the momentary social media fame that studios think will bring in money. The focus should be on the STORY, NOT the actors. Great films like Star Wars (OT) and Lord of the Rings thrived on compelling narratives, not celebrity status. Today, movies are investments, all about momentary fame over real talent and storytelling. And what's happening with DUNE is really messed up because this is one of the few stories that needs none of that. This story could and can carry itself. Still, IMO this is one of the best movies lately.
@@AtlanticPicture You do you dude. Florence Pugh has been working since 2017 and Anya has been working since 2015. If anyone's overhyped and targeted towards feminists, it's Zendaya. Also Momoa wasn't in this second part.
@@wiinterflowers4277 I thought Zendaya's acting and presence was much better in this film than Florence Pugh...but of course all you jerks just attack Zendaya....I bet y'all think Meryl Streep is the G.O.A.T. of actresses also, right?
@@koko40800 Zendaya was awful in this and this is coming from someone who read the books (I reread the first book before watching part two). I liked Florence in this mainly because her character was more interesting given how her character is in the books and how they set up because she plays a big part in Dune Messiah. I even liked Rebecca Ferguson in this despite hating her character. And *NO* I don't like Meryl Streep like all those snowflakes.
I think Villeneuve has handled Alia very well so far considering the limited time available for character development in movies, in all I'm surprised we got as much Alia content on screen as we did so far. Hopefully they will bring up the Abomination aspects with flashbacks and such in the third movie. I also think the actor they cast for Alia is spot on!
It would have been nice for the movie to have featured her in the movie. The time compression means a 16-year-old doing what an 18-year-old old doing meaning there really was no pretense for him ruling. If the detector was worried about people weirding out over her what is he doing to do with all the plot points of Messiah?
Again, this shows Dune should have been a three part movie. There was too much story that needed to be told for the story to move forward. A lot of folk who came into the fandom with the movies haven't had the time with all the books and are unable to see the smaller failings of the movie will cause larger problems to story telling later on. Aaliyah, Stillgar, Duncan, Chani, Fade, and the Baron were all changed to be smaller or non-existent compared to the characters in the book. Now, the slight changes will need to be creatively corrected and shoehorned in to get the story back to some normalized idea. Yeah, I liked Denis Villeneuve's version of Dune. But, it was because I love Dune and wanted to see what he could do with it. It was a beautiful yet flawed spectacle, and personally, I feel it still fell short of the 1984 version flawed masterpiece in storytelling.
Unfortunately I think Alia's further development as a character may be seriously truncated in Villeneuve's "Dune Messiah", not because he doesn't care about her story but because his priority is to bring Paul's story to its intended conclusion. The latter will require a lot of screen time, as we will need to see how the Holy War plays out, how Paul's relationship with Chani plays out, and how the conspiracy against Paul plays out. [Warning: Spoilers follow.] More specifically, the conspiracy plot line -- which should function as the spine of the movie -- will demand multiple set-up and pay-off scenes with Irulan, Scytale, Edric, Mohiam, and Duncan's ghola Hayt. Alia does have a role to play in helping bring the conspiracy plot line to resolution, but it isn't a large one. Basically she needs to be shown establishing a relationship with Hayt that helps prepare him to recover Duncan's memories at the critical moment. This will require some drilling down into who and what Alia has become and why she gravitates toward Hayt. However beyond that there really isn't much for her to do that's essential to wrapping up Paul's story.
Great cookies to start my day. Thank you. I still think that Chani was made into a "boss girl" in Dune 2 and it ruined the second half of the movie for me.
We can only wait and hope that he is trua as possible tot the basestory, but as said before, its his interpretation combined with a way that the puvlic understands this magnificent journey I have seen the furst film, the series even several times because it contained all 3 books and still can enjoy all adaptations for what they are
Can’t wait to see how they will do Alia in Dune Messiah. For one, they’ll do her justice because in Dune Messiah, she’ll be both Warrior and a lead priestess/head of religion as Paul’s war progressed. Personally I’d love to see her being the closest to Paul before she meets/marries the Duncan clone. Plus it’ll still be interesting to see how the Baron would torment/possess her in Children of Dune. Also for some reason, Alia reminds me of Homelander and I see Denis doing Children of Dune because he did all the new Dune movies wonderfully well and beyond expectations
It would be nice if HBO did Children and God Emperor mini series, and have Denis on as a special advisor to preserve the same feel of the movies. His visuals are what really put the movies over the top for me. I wish he was more careful with lasegun use and maybe even had an instance in a Fremen attack where one hit a shield and went off like a small tactical nuke and maybe a quick one liner, just a one or two minute scene that showed just how dangerous they were to let viewers not educated in the lore know why they fought with knives and not lasers most of the time.
I think its important to mention that in Frank Herbert's initial script for a Dune film that he wrote himself - he wrote Alia as a unborn fetus as he thought it would suit a movie better.
Given Villenuves handling of Chani and pauls relationship, and Alia, i just dont feel this will be Dune Messiah. Im afraid it will move into fanfic at this point. Yes the spice overdose is as important as the cut dinner from the first movie. Just my opinion, i hope everyone gets what they want from the movie. Im pretty sure i wont but time will tell.
Probably the sad thing about Alia is that after she died, Jessica felt guilty for abandoning her. Seeing how Leto II and Ghanima were also abomination but they had each other to support each other and Chani's spirit protecting them. Jessica felt that she might have been able to save Alia if she had been there for her.
Perhaps you can dedicate a video on how Denis is going to re-unite Chani and Paul.....since in the 1984 movie you didn't see Chani running off in a pouting huff like you did in Dune Part 2. I mean he kind of has to bring the two back together and back in love.....as they are supposed to have kids together at some point, yes? That would be an interesting deep dive by you m'dear.
I think Denis has her pregnant with them right now, which I'm fine with since there's only so much screen time available in movies, maybe Paul will be reintroduced to them when he returns from the jihad. Kind of like Ragnar's relationship with his sons in Vikings. I do hope HBO does Children of Dune and God Emperor shows after the third movie, the lore just gets too complex for movies past Messiah.
I'm still disappointed that they didn't do Alia as an adult actress "de-aged" via CGI and mocap (ala Gollum in LotR). But, the changes that NOT having her born and walking around forced them to make, were by and large good ones for the story they really wanted to tell- Paul's rise to power and how it cost him almost everything that truly mattered. Alia HAS TO BE a big part of movie 3; there's simply no way around that (especially since they cast Anya Taylor-Joy in the role, a BRILLIANT piece of casting that we didn't get to see enough of during movie 2). I fully agree that playing up her connection to Duncan's first Ghola is the best way to make both of those characters more sympathetic, important, and dramatic for the final plot. One random thought (given how movie 2 ended): what if ALIA is somehow the one who makes peace between Paul and Chani, which we all know has to happen for movie 3 to play out correctly (hey, even if you didn't read the book, PAUL HIMSELF SAID SHE COMES BACK in movie 2 after we know he's seen all futures)? I don't know off the top of my head how this would work, but it strikes me as a way to have Chani come back, demonstrate Alia's huge importance, and get other plot machinery going all with one stroke- if handled correctly. And I think Denis and his writing team can handle it correctly.
The 'Alia Issue' also dogs anyone trying to adapt 'Children of Dune' though perhaps not to such a great degree. Even so, as Leto II and Ghanima in the book are just nine years old, it isn't too surprising that the only screen adaptation I know of, the TV mini series, aged them up to almost twice that, just to get round the issues.
The child of Feyd and Margo is Marie. In the novel Paul of Dune, Marie is trained to assassinate Paul and is killed by Alia. Both are 8 years old or so.
Last time I said I want a five year jump now I say make it a full decade so an older child actress can play Alia. I still want Taylor-Joy to to be a vision in her mother’s head Paul’s and the ghola of Idaho. In this way the audience can still have the delicious creepiness of an adult in a child’s body. This can also help to work some comic moments of levity into the film too. I want Idaho action to the max and I want a war weary Stilgar. As for Paul Chani, Jessica and others I want to see a film where these characters have significant scenes where we have world building and addressing omissions of characters, factions and groups. Finally I want WB to aim Villeneuve in the direction of handing off future Dune projects to the show runner of House of the Dragon. That guy is doing a great job.
Everything is adapted in this directors’ dune. Expect nothing fron the books, he cut out so much from the origional. Don’t look for the Spacing guild, bene trilax, a guild navigator, other great houses. He’s telling a simple story. Sorry about my spelling.
While I an disappointed by some of the short-cuts made in the story line in the two movies, I also understand the reasons in translating Dune from a written to an audio-visual format. The demands of pacing is entirely different between the two formats. For example, adding in Alia's birth, growth and development as a freman, would have necessitated at least another 20 minutes to the movie and added more time to Muad'Dib's story in parallel, all necessitating cutting time from other parts. Also considering there was no guarantee of a follow on movie, Villeneuve would have needed to end part II in such a way that it could stand on it's own without having to rely on the next movie to complete the story. But with Messiah, he has the opportunity to carry Alia's arc forward including some flashbacks of her early life.
Maybe in Alia's memory flashbacks they can get Vivien Lyra Blair (the actor who played Leia in Kenobi) to play the young Alia, who, let's face it was the real star of that show! Hopefully she won't be seen as too old for that role by the time they are ready for shooting the movie.
Personally, I don't mind that Alia was portrayed in fetal form for DUNE 2. Even though she didn't get the chance to kill her grandfather, the Jihad is still afoot and she will still be able to prove her prowess as a child warrior, earning the title St. Alia of the Knife. If he could show Alia in flashback, with little dialogue and a young actress with just the right visual gravitas, Denis could make her work. I imagine young Alia with a cold gaze that could cut through stone.
It was a mistake to condense Alia's role in the timejump in the books to Jessica's storyline in the final product that was Part Two and that was one of my big issues. Plus, it made me hate Jessica even more, given what happens to Alia. Jessica even knows what she did to her daughter and *NEVER* owns up to it, she's even almost a villain in the film. Alia's backstory is heartbreaking and I hope to god Denis doesn't screw it up and hopefully sticks the landing given Dune 3 will be his last film.
For this change, I think the right decisions have been made, especially in terms of adaptation. I'm hoping they will even go as far as God Emperor. If they end with that, the story closes in full circle. Admitted I have not read the last two books of the main saga, so maybe there is even more pay off if they continue.
One thing I do not understand about Alia is how could she be "possessed" by the Baron Harkonnen? My understanding, and please correct me, is that Bene Gesserit reverend mothers have access to all of their female ancestors, and it is a significant part of the Kwizatz Haderach is that he has access to that forbidden male ancestral memories. This is repeated with Leto and Ghanima.
Because an adaptation is exactly that, an adaptation. Not an original thing. It’s not ok to change things to fit your narrative. If directors want to do that, they can simply make up their own story and yet they don’t. Directors should make their own stories if they don’t like the source material.
part 2 just didn’t pop for me.. seems like all the good parts of this universe were lost in adaptation..mentats, spacing guild navigators, the harkonen are like barely fleshed out..ghede prime not even explored or looked at whatsoever..this film came off as a speed run of the book
I think DV had to streamline the story for every person watching. Book readers and non book readers a like. Considering that both movies run 5+ hours together, I don’t think he had too much room to add to either one. Another person in this thread mentioned splitting the book into 3 parts, which is what maybe the story fully requires, but is just not feasible from a production standpoint. Hence the adapting/streamlining of the story into 2 parts. Given the 2 part structure there are somethings he simply could not fit into 2 already very long movies, without sacrificing the intrigue from non book readers.
Good video. Unfortunately I think Alia will continue as a more minor character than she was in the books. I don't think Villenueve can make up for where he left Alia and finish the rest of the story in Dune Messiah.
Denis will have to combine parts of Children of Dune with Dune Messiah. Alia being in Dune 2 wouldn't have worked. The previous adaptations have her coming off as Chucky. Basically, just weird in a bad way.
If the Children of Dune is done, It better be helmed by an experienced director, and written by experienced screenwriters. This movie would not be the place to give people their start (see multiple Disney Star Wars failures).
I never understood why Dune was thought to be unadaptable. The other books are much more difficult to adapt, starting with Messiah. I have no idea how DV will do this. Book geeks are going to be butt hurt no matter what he does. Too include most of messiah would require two films.
I thought the miniseries did a good job portraying her alienation, torment and descent into madness. It's going ot be a tough ask in the films, but I have reasonable confidence that DV will treat Paul and Alia as complementary narrative drivers of the fall of the house of Atreides. I just don't want to see Anya TJ do it. Can't help it, don't like her look and bearing, and I don't feel the Dune in her.
alia is ghani now and paul will take leto 2nds place going down the golden path himself. the whole idea was paul compresses the time line. the game is also playing off this idea. a universe where paul atrides was never born. or they just dont make another movie. i would prefer that actually.
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One correction NC...Leto II and Ghanima were not pre-born, if I remember correctly...they were both born with KH abilities however...I agree that Jessica should be in Part 3, because it seemed to me that Jessica was going mad herself at the end of Part 2...or maybe 'possessed', as you said....and if anybody is concerned about Alia not getting enough screen time, I wouldn't worry about that...ATJ takes over the screen whenever she appears, and I'm sure she will get plenty of time 🙂
Alia's character was tragic. Abandoned by her mother, who put the burden of being pre-born upon her in the first place. She never had a chance.
I really hope Denis and friends stick the landing for DUNE 3, this will go down as one of the best trilogies of all time. Getting Alia right is going to be critical for the last entry
He stated he isnt interested in adapting it if it's not going to be significantly bigger than the first 2. Hes the only dir who I'd believe when they say that. Given the absolute financial success of part 2 I have no doubt WB will throw boats of money at him to give him all the resources he needs
Considering how rich the stories and the lore are. I don't expect Denis to please all of us. But if we don't get more of the spacing guild in the next film, I will riot! lol.
I’m going to chip in and cast that the spacing guild and the Bene Tleilax will take up the majority of the next movie as the main conspirators. I can’t speak for the rest
You guys obsessed with the Spacing Guild (for some reason...in the first 3 books they're basically an intergalactic taxi service, well in the background) will no doubt see Edric the Navigator.....conspiring, and possibly getting executed at the end...and most likely, that's it...just trying to warn you in advance, so we don't hear y'all outraged after Part 3 (like the Sardaukar fanboys after Part 2) complaining the Spacing Guild was 'under-used' or 'nerfed'
I still have issues with the changes made to Dune pt.1-2, but the Paul being the one to slay the Baron was a good one. It's was well done besides the part where Paul still had his mask on and even saying "hello grandfather", the Baron doesn't know who this man is or the relationship he really has with him before he dies.
He could've connected the dots during the conversation with Shaddam before the battle but even if he figured out Muadib is Paul, he still doesn't know that Paul is actually his grandson. In the books and in the movie, they never state he knew that Lady Jessica is his daughter.
All he had to do was lower his mask and then say the kickass line, "You die like an animal." Chef's kiss 🤌
I'm sure the baron figured that he was dying by the hand of mo adib. Though, he wouldn't know it was paul.
@salaha7776 Yeaa, besides from that little moment, the scene itself was perfect. One of the few times a change made from the book that is actually better.
@@austinguthrie5528 I'm pretty sure the Baron figured it out. You can kind of see the realization on his face just before Paul kills him. Plus, he would have known Paul's voice, and there were rumors that Paul Atreides was still alive. The Baron isn't an idiot. You can see when the Emperor is interrogating him that the idea that Muad'Dib is dead is a foregone conclusion because the southern storms are so powerful. He surely remembered sending Paul and Jessica into the desert to die but not technically killing them so he couldn't be interrogated by the Bene Gesserit. So he may not have put two and two together beforehand, but when Paul says "grandfather," he likely pieced it together as his mind was clearly working fast before he died.
Rewatch the scene and you can see his realization.
@d-_-b8558 You're probably right. He was pretty smart and constantly making plans within plans he probably would've sus it out about Paul/Muad'Dib connection. Crazy to think he would've had like 3 revelations in one with a single phrase from the man who kills him. Tall about a wombo combo
I agree. The book makes clear that the Baron was familiar with Paul prior to the overthrow of the Atreides, and his eyes widen momentarily before Paul administers the coup de grâce. He's realizing that he in fact failed to end the Atreides line. Great acting by Stellan Skarsgård.
Alia is one of my favorite characters and yes, I was disappointed when she was left out of the movie. You're spot on with your analysis, again. It will be a tragedy if she isn't a focal point in the next adaptation.
I can never get enough of your informative posts! Makes my day. Thank you for your continued work!
I love Cookies for breakfast. Great start to my day. Thanks for another awesome video,to you and your team.
Thanks Elaine!!! 😊
I know I mentioned this before Alia is a complex individual who as an adult is somewhat cruel but is always wanting you can't help but to feel sorry for her. I always wondered why didn't her mother train her to help her deal with the memories. Denis dropped the ball when it came to Alia I don't know if he can pull a Sand Worm out of the hat and fix it I loved the tv mini series Frank Herbert's Dune and The Children of Dune special effect were crap but that didn't matter I am a special effects snob but when it comes to Dune the story is the most important part. Thank you for the video I have a lore achieve on my computer of all of your Dune videos I love them all keep it up.
Great comment! My thoughts exactly.
Villeneuve has done an amazing job of balancing the books and what's possible on screen. I trust him to give us another great installment in the Dune series.
emo Chani i didn't enjoy
If Denis wants to include the Duncan-Alia romance subplot, some kind of Spice-induced accelerated ageing is a must, in my mind. And Alia finally succumbing to possession and the Baron’s return as an ego-memory would be great to see
I agree, Elaine, that Dune Part II made several foundational changes to story and I don't see how, after making changes of this scope to Alia, that we get the story treatment that many of us want and expect. I don't buy the "Villeneuve did his best" narrative as Alia's story and influence wasn't as self-contained as, for example, LOTR's Tom Bombadil and this handling of Alia reduces the rich tapestry of the books.
Although I wish Denis had hewn closer to the novel's portrayal of Alia, I was fascinated by the movie's version of her. Unborn, frightened, intelligent, wise, and imprisoned. This made her a far more sympathetic character. Despite having painted himself into a corner Denis has a great opportunity to expound on Alia's tragic existence but I fear the other conundrum he created with Paul and Chani will diminish her screen time.
Denis' Dune looks amazing onscreen, no denying that, I just wish it was a bit more faithful to the source material. No baby Alia, No Guild navigator, No foreshadowing of Dr. Yeoh being the traitor, and oh yeah, btw we're also gonna let Paul get stabbed, not once, but twice.
A few thoughts:
1. I wouldn't hold my breath for Alia being referred to as St. Alia of the Knife. It could be added if they show her participating in the Jihad, but it is one of those details that that can easily be omitted in an adaptation.
2. Fans who haven't read the novels are going to expect action. This will almost certainly be done by showing battles in the Jihad.
3. Resolving Paul and Chani's relationship is almost certainly going to take priority over Alia and Duncans.
4. Considering that this will be Villeneuve's last Dune film, he may be more inclined to wrap up the trilogy than set the stage for future films. He is a Dune fan, but I don't know how far into the series his fandom goes.
2.
I just discovered your channel recently and am loving it so much!! I watched Dune 2 last night for the first time finally and then watched about another 3 hours of your Dune content afterwards!! Please keep these videos coming - I particularly enjoy the ones about the small details of the story that you cover such as the arena guards in Feyd’s arena scene, the sacrifices and rituals of the Sardaukar and the Bene Tleilax!!
We really need St. Alia of the Knife in the continuing Dune adaptations, first as a visible focus of the growing fanaticism of the Atreides rule, and eventually to embody both internal political and supernatural spice-fueled dangers in the continuing story.
By now we've got a lot of characters though. Stuff got cut from Part 1 and Part 2, what will get cut from Messiah?
I wish Villeneuve would have made longer director's cuts of the movies available later. There were so many scenes left on the cutting room floor.
Great character and great video!
I wonder if her and Feyd Rautha's daughter will fight in Dune Messiah. I understand that that was in one of his sons novels, but the way Part Two was, Denis may have set such an event up. 🤷 Makes sense.
Villeneuve said he wouldn't do DUNE III unless it would be even better. Thanks to the cast, that's nearly impossible. He hired a lot of people for their (social media) fame, not for their craft.
DUNE is one of my favorite recent movies, mostly for the story and visuals, but I have mixed feelings about it because of the cast. Ferguson is fantastic-her acting and stage presence are top-notch. However, I can't take Zendaya, Joy, and Pugh seriously. Then there's Aquaman. I kept waiting for him to yell 'MyMan! He was all over the place, mostly flying high. Walken seemed like he was about to crack a weird joke or start dancing to Fatboy Slim, his acting was def missed some cow bells. Chalamet did well in parts, especially in the beginning, but the final fight scene looked more like a school brawl than a battle for the fate of the Galaxy. Not sure the 3rd will be much better by adding Joy as Alia, but hope that the visuals make up for some loss.
Anya Taylor Joy and Florence Pugh are seasoned actresses and can actually carry a film; their filmographies are a testament to that. Zendaya cannot fucking act. I literally laughed during the sex scene between her and Paul. I've literally gone to calling her Chendaya because she's not Chani. And Chani's supposed to be redheaded.
@@wiinterflowers4277 Well we disagree w that first part. Their fame is built on social media hype and a vocal minority of simps and feminists who thinks their nipple and ass hanging out on the red carpet is something to celebrate over talent, character, style. I'd throw Ma'Man Momoa in there too. Countless unknown actors could outperform these overhyped stars if given the chance, but they’re overlooked for the momentary social media fame that studios think will bring in money.
The focus should be on the STORY, NOT the actors. Great films like Star Wars (OT) and Lord of the Rings thrived on compelling narratives, not celebrity status. Today, movies are investments, all about momentary fame over real talent and storytelling. And what's happening with DUNE is really messed up because this is one of the few stories that needs none of that. This story could and can carry itself. Still, IMO this is one of the best movies lately.
@@AtlanticPicture You do you dude. Florence Pugh has been working since 2017 and Anya has been working since 2015. If anyone's overhyped and targeted towards feminists, it's Zendaya. Also Momoa wasn't in this second part.
@@wiinterflowers4277 I thought Zendaya's acting and presence was much better in this film than Florence Pugh...but of course all you jerks just attack Zendaya....I bet y'all think Meryl Streep is the G.O.A.T. of actresses also, right?
@@koko40800 Zendaya was awful in this and this is coming from someone who read the books (I reread the first book before watching part two). I liked Florence in this mainly because her character was more interesting given how her character is in the books and how they set up because she plays a big part in Dune Messiah. I even liked Rebecca Ferguson in this despite hating her character. And *NO* I don't like Meryl Streep like all those snowflakes.
I think Villeneuve has handled Alia very well so far considering the limited time available for character development in movies, in all I'm surprised we got as much Alia content on screen as we did so far. Hopefully they will bring up the Abomination aspects with flashbacks and such in the third movie. I also think the actor they cast for Alia is spot on!
Thank you, Nerd Cookies.
It would have been nice for the movie to have featured her in the movie. The time compression means a 16-year-old doing what an 18-year-old old doing meaning there really was no pretense for him ruling. If the detector was worried about people weirding out over her what is he doing to do with all the plot points of Messiah?
Again, this shows Dune should have been a three part movie. There was too much story that needed to be told for the story to move forward.
A lot of folk who came into the fandom with the movies haven't had the time with all the books and are unable to see the smaller failings of the movie will cause larger problems to story telling later on.
Aaliyah, Stillgar, Duncan, Chani, Fade, and the Baron were all changed to be smaller or non-existent compared to the characters in the book.
Now, the slight changes will need to be creatively corrected and shoehorned in to get the story back to some normalized idea.
Yeah, I liked Denis Villeneuve's version of Dune. But, it was because I love Dune and wanted to see what he could do with it. It was a beautiful yet flawed spectacle, and personally, I feel it still fell short of the 1984 version flawed masterpiece in storytelling.
Unfortunately I think Alia's further development as a character may be seriously truncated in Villeneuve's "Dune Messiah", not because he doesn't care about her story but because his priority is to bring Paul's story to its intended conclusion. The latter will require a lot of screen time, as we will need to see how the Holy War plays out, how Paul's relationship with Chani plays out, and how the conspiracy against Paul plays out. [Warning: Spoilers follow.]
More specifically, the conspiracy plot line -- which should function as the spine of the movie -- will demand multiple set-up and pay-off scenes with Irulan, Scytale, Edric, Mohiam, and Duncan's ghola Hayt. Alia does have a role to play in helping bring the conspiracy plot line to resolution, but it isn't a large one. Basically she needs to be shown establishing a relationship with Hayt that helps prepare him to recover Duncan's memories at the critical moment. This will require some drilling down into who and what Alia has become and why she gravitates toward Hayt. However beyond that there really isn't much for her to do that's essential to wrapping up Paul's story.
Great cookies to start my day. Thank you. I still think that Chani was made into a "boss girl" in Dune 2 and it ruined the second half of the movie for me.
We can only wait and hope that he is trua as possible tot the basestory, but as said before, its his interpretation combined with a way that the puvlic understands this magnificent journey I have seen the furst film, the series even several times because it contained all 3 books and still can enjoy all adaptations for what they are
Can’t wait to see how they will do Alia in Dune Messiah. For one, they’ll do her justice because in Dune Messiah, she’ll be both Warrior and a lead priestess/head of religion as Paul’s war progressed. Personally I’d love to see her being the closest to Paul before she meets/marries the Duncan clone. Plus it’ll still be interesting to see how the Baron would torment/possess her in Children of Dune. Also for some reason, Alia reminds me of Homelander and I see Denis doing Children of Dune because he did all the new Dune movies wonderfully well and beyond expectations
Yeah kind of like Homelander and Sister Sage in one!
It would be nice if HBO did Children and God Emperor mini series, and have Denis on as a special advisor to preserve the same feel of the movies. His visuals are what really put the movies over the top for me. I wish he was more careful with lasegun use and maybe even had an instance in a Fremen attack where one hit a shield and went off like a small tactical nuke and maybe a quick one liner, just a one or two minute scene that showed just how dangerous they were to let viewers not educated in the lore know why they fought with knives and not lasers most of the time.
I think its important to mention that in Frank Herbert's initial script for a Dune film that he wrote himself - he wrote Alia as a unborn fetus as he thought it would suit a movie better.
Aka "Grabdpa Vlad's last laugh."
Her becoming fully aware while still in utero must've been......intense. To say the least.
Duncan Idaho is soooooo dreamy ❤❤
That's Mr. BDE, Tenth Level Ginaz
Given Villenuves handling of Chani and pauls relationship, and Alia, i just dont feel this will be Dune Messiah. Im afraid it will move into fanfic at this point. Yes the spice overdose is as important as the cut dinner from the first movie. Just my opinion, i hope everyone gets what they want from the movie. Im pretty sure i wont but time will tell.
Great video...👍
The deviations are enormous, however Villeneuve is a skilled filmmaker and I trust him.
Probably the sad thing about Alia is that after she died, Jessica felt guilty for abandoning her. Seeing how Leto II and Ghanima were also abomination but they had each other to support each other and Chani's spirit protecting them. Jessica felt that she might have been able to save Alia if she had been there for her.
Perhaps you can dedicate a video on how Denis is going to re-unite Chani and Paul.....since in the 1984 movie you didn't see Chani running off in a pouting huff like you did in Dune Part 2. I mean he kind of has to bring the two back together and back in love.....as they are supposed to have kids together at some point, yes? That would be an interesting deep dive by you m'dear.
I think Denis has her pregnant with them right now, which I'm fine with since there's only so much screen time available in movies, maybe Paul will be reintroduced to them when he returns from the jihad. Kind of like Ragnar's relationship with his sons in Vikings. I do hope HBO does Children of Dune and God Emperor shows after the third movie, the lore just gets too complex for movies past Messiah.
I'm still disappointed that they didn't do Alia as an adult actress "de-aged" via CGI and mocap (ala Gollum in LotR). But, the changes that NOT having her born and walking around forced them to make, were by and large good ones for the story they really wanted to tell- Paul's rise to power and how it cost him almost everything that truly mattered.
Alia HAS TO BE a big part of movie 3; there's simply no way around that (especially since they cast Anya Taylor-Joy in the role, a BRILLIANT piece of casting that we didn't get to see enough of during movie 2). I fully agree that playing up her connection to Duncan's first Ghola is the best way to make both of those characters more sympathetic, important, and dramatic for the final plot. One random thought (given how movie 2 ended): what if ALIA is somehow the one who makes peace between Paul and Chani, which we all know has to happen for movie 3 to play out correctly (hey, even if you didn't read the book, PAUL HIMSELF SAID SHE COMES BACK in movie 2 after we know he's seen all futures)? I don't know off the top of my head how this would work, but it strikes me as a way to have Chani come back, demonstrate Alia's huge importance, and get other plot machinery going all with one stroke- if handled correctly. And I think Denis and his writing team can handle it correctly.
Alia is such an interesting character, ultimately tragic
The 'Alia Issue' also dogs anyone trying to adapt 'Children of Dune' though perhaps not to such a great degree. Even so, as Leto II and Ghanima in the book are just nine years old, it isn't too surprising that the only screen adaptation I know of, the TV mini series, aged them up to almost twice that, just to get round the issues.
The child of Feyd and Margo is Marie. In the novel Paul of Dune, Marie is trained to assassinate Paul and is killed by Alia. Both are 8 years old or so.
I didn't like the time compression used in Dune the same way I didn't like the time compression used in the LOTR trilogy
Last time I said I want a five year jump now I say make it a full decade so an older child actress can play Alia. I still want Taylor-Joy to to be a vision in her mother’s head Paul’s and the ghola of Idaho. In this way the audience can still have the delicious creepiness of an adult in a child’s body. This can also help to work some comic moments of levity into the film too. I want Idaho action to the max and I want a war weary Stilgar. As for Paul Chani, Jessica and others I want to see a film where these characters have significant scenes where we have world building and addressing omissions of characters, factions and groups.
Finally I want WB to aim Villeneuve in the direction of handing off future Dune projects to the show runner of House of the Dragon. That guy is doing a great job.
Everything is adapted in this directors’ dune. Expect nothing fron the books, he cut out so much from the origional. Don’t look for the Spacing guild, bene trilax, a guild navigator, other great houses. He’s telling a simple story. Sorry about my spelling.
While I an disappointed by some of the short-cuts made in the story line in the two movies, I also understand the reasons in translating Dune from a written to an audio-visual format. The demands of pacing is entirely different between the two formats. For example, adding in Alia's birth, growth and development as a freman, would have necessitated at least another 20 minutes to the movie and added more time to Muad'Dib's story in parallel, all necessitating cutting time from other parts. Also considering there was no guarantee of a follow on movie, Villeneuve would have needed to end part II in such a way that it could stand on it's own without having to rely on the next movie to complete the story. But with Messiah, he has the opportunity to carry Alia's arc forward including some flashbacks of her early life.
"Dunish" Not Dune, but an incredible simulation. They just had to squeeze Chess Girl in there. Why not add Morgan Freeman too?
Maybe in Alia's memory flashbacks they can get Vivien Lyra Blair (the actor who played Leia in Kenobi) to play the young Alia, who, let's face it was the real star of that show! Hopefully she won't be seen as too old for that role by the time they are ready for shooting the movie.
Alia will still be an influential and powerful character in the next DUNE _sans_ the psychic breakdowns she experienced in the SYFY series.
Personally, I don't mind that Alia was portrayed in fetal form for DUNE 2. Even though she didn't get the chance to kill her grandfather, the Jihad is still afoot and she will still be able to prove her prowess as a child warrior, earning the title St. Alia of the Knife. If he could show Alia in flashback, with little dialogue and a young actress with just the right visual gravitas, Denis could make her work. I imagine young Alia with a cold gaze that could cut through stone.
The age reduction they did to her in Furiosa was believable. Maybe they could do something like that?
It was a mistake to condense Alia's role in the timejump in the books to Jessica's storyline in the final product that was Part Two and that was one of my big issues. Plus, it made me hate Jessica even more, given what happens to Alia. Jessica even knows what she did to her daughter and *NEVER* owns up to it, she's even almost a villain in the film. Alia's backstory is heartbreaking and I hope to god Denis doesn't screw it up and hopefully sticks the landing given Dune 3 will be his last film.
They did her so dirty in the book. She didn't deserve that fate
For this change, I think the right decisions have been made, especially in terms of adaptation. I'm hoping they will even go as far as God Emperor. If they end with that, the story closes in full circle. Admitted I have not read the last two books of the main saga, so maybe there is even more pay off if they continue.
One thing I do not understand about Alia is how could she be "possessed" by the Baron Harkonnen? My understanding, and please correct me, is that Bene Gesserit reverend mothers have access to all of their female ancestors, and it is a significant part of the Kwizatz Haderach is that he has access to that forbidden male ancestral memories. This is repeated with Leto and Ghanima.
Guaranteed they'll give her some sort of love interest.
Villeneuve has crippled Dune Messiah before the cameras even roll
The ending of Dune 2 was so bad I won't be watching dune 3. All the visuals in the world cannot save it for me.
Was it really that bad for you? & why
It was terrible I agree. So jerky, nothing connects anywhere. Everything is so random.
@@thecreativemastermin spoken like a true 'creative mastermin'
I really like Alia's book arc, but what's wrong with a slightly different arc in a movie? I welcome seeing something new.
Because an adaptation is exactly that, an adaptation. Not an original thing. It’s not ok to change things to fit your narrative. If directors want to do that, they can simply make up their own story and yet they don’t. Directors should make their own stories if they don’t like the source material.
@@nenyeo6090 I get the love for the books. I'm just okay with adaptation meaning change. That's just like, my opinion man.
@@nenyeo6090 No book, let alone a complex epic like 'Dune', can ever be adapted to screen without some cuts or changes
part 2 just didn’t pop for me.. seems like all the good parts of this universe were lost in adaptation..mentats, spacing guild navigators, the harkonen are like barely fleshed out..ghede prime not even explored or looked at whatsoever..this film came off as a speed run of the book
I think DV had to streamline the story for every person watching. Book readers and non book readers a like. Considering that both movies run 5+ hours together, I don’t think he had too much room to add to either one. Another person in this thread mentioned splitting the book into 3 parts, which is what maybe the story fully requires, but is just not feasible from a production standpoint. Hence the adapting/streamlining of the story into 2 parts. Given the 2 part structure there are somethings he simply could not fit into 2 already very long movies, without sacrificing the intrigue from non book readers.
Good video. Unfortunately I think Alia will continue as a more minor character than she was in the books. I don't think Villenueve can make up for where he left Alia and finish the rest of the story in Dune Messiah.
An accurate Children of Dune movie would be horror, Alias fate is the saddest story of Dune…🖖🏽
I’m Dennis we trust 🔥💪🏼💪🏼
In Denis we DON’T trust.
@@nenyeo6090 Both of you are using 'we', when you should be using 'I'
Chani and Paul don't necessarily need to reconciliate. She could be pregnant at the end of Dune 2.
I think Dune 2 was made with little forethought to Children of Dune. The stories are almost UN reconciling.
Denis will have to combine parts of Children of Dune with Dune Messiah.
Alia being in Dune 2 wouldn't have worked. The previous adaptations have her coming off as Chucky. Basically, just weird in a bad way.
If the Children of Dune is done, It better be helmed by an experienced director, and written by experienced screenwriters. This movie would not be the place to give people their start (see multiple Disney Star Wars failures).
I wonder if they will broach the other name she was known by? Alia of the Knife.
I'm sad that they didn't cast Natalia Dyer for Alia. Anya taylor joy is ok but it just didn't seem like the right fit to me.
I never understood why Dune was thought to be unadaptable. The other books are much more difficult to adapt, starting with Messiah. I have no idea how DV will do this. Book geeks are going to be butt hurt no matter what he does. Too include most of messiah would require two films.
yea, maybe that’s because he’s stripping all things Dune & making it a lame version of the books.
I thought the miniseries did a good job portraying her alienation, torment and descent into madness. It's going ot be a tough ask in the films, but I have reasonable confidence that DV will treat Paul and Alia as complementary narrative drivers of the fall of the house of Atreides.
I just don't want to see Anya TJ do it. Can't help it, don't like her look and bearing, and I don't feel the Dune in her.
Not this actress again. They just gonna keep putting her in everything huh.
ATJ can act, that's why...not to mention her otherworldly quality that's perfect for Alia imo
I was so disappointed with the Dune 2 movie that I am not sure I will watch the third movie.
alia is ghani now and paul will take leto 2nds place going down the golden path himself. the whole idea was paul compresses the time line. the game is also playing off this idea. a universe where paul atrides was never born. or they just dont make another movie. i would prefer that actually.
Crapily unfortunately
Can we get some new actors soon, seeing the same people in every film is so boring.