The scene in Dune where Paul has a vision in the tent is of a possible future where Jessica doesn't survive the desert this creating a future where Paul and Jamis are friends but no mother or sister to temper his rage for revenge. The future where Paul has no one to stop him is the worst possible future
I always thought the BG's assumption that they could control the KH was arrogant and short-sighted. It kinda defeats the whole purpose of the KH, who would surely beat his own drum regardless of his conditioning.
@@cecilofs I think that having prescience dumped upon you would override any conditioning. With all possible futures exposed and full awareness of your past, plus knowledge of the machinations of the BG, I think it's in the nature of the KH to stand alone, independent of outside influence. Was Paul acting solely as a man seeking revenge against his enemies, or was he acting as the KH independent of his past and doing what he thought was right? We're led to believe it was the former, but was it really the latter? Maybe his ascension appeared to be a revenge scheme, but was really just an inevitable result of being the KH with full awareness. I think this would occur regardless of who the KH happens to be. I don't recall that Herbert ever addressed this, but I could be wrong.
Finally a gender-swap with an actual purpose that doesn’t contradict established canon. This actually frees up the game to have a well developed story without going wildly out of the novels. This sounds interesting.
The established canon is that lady Jessica had a son, you can read it clearly and plainly. Anything outside that is anti canonical heresy. They have not gone wildly out of the novels, they completely ignored them. It may be interesting in its own right, but it has nothing to do with Dune.
@@oso1248 Its the only way they could make an open world MMO set on Arrakis during the same time period. They aren't gaslighting fans, they are acknowledging its an alternate timeline. I think its an interesting take and am cautiously optimistic about the game.
I’m well aware of what you’re saying. I should have been clear in saying: that this is an alternate timeline of sorts. One whose possibility was mentioned in the books. That being said, it could end up being terrible. Or it could be alright. Pegasus the designers actually do want to go way off script in a negative way. Or perhaps building such a game with heavy story elements wouldn’t have allowed for nearly as much story Development if it fit into the first book. I’m trying to be hopeful; but trust me, I understand.
That’s exactly my feelings on it as of now. I was initially disappointed at the news, but it does potentially open it up so that the player can actually affect the universe based on their choices in a way that a one to one adaptation could not. It’ll either be great or trash in my opinion. But as you said, they’re up front about it and I think it could really work. And I say this as a rabid, die hard Dune series fan whose the novels a dozens times or so. And I normally despise changes to the source material. This is just an alternate time line.
In God' Emperor of Dune, the novel says that humanity would go extinct if the golden path was not followed. Things were already at an inflection point in the time of Dune.
Interesting video, Elaine. Psychopathy runs in families, and has a genetic component. With Fayd being a psychopath, there's a good probability the QH would also be a psychopath. In this timeline, the emperor would be like a combined Hitler/Stalin/Mao. Sounds fun to me!
I've always wondered just how the Harkonnen hunted the Fremen for sport. Unlike the movie, they don't use ballistics, bombs dropped from on high, and so "hunted" them on the ground. Since the Fremen are a match for the Sardaukar, just how could they have seen the Harkonnen as any sort of problem?
fremen arent as bad ass as a strategic military group until paul shows up. Before him they are a tactical nightmare and individual fighters and not united. Not united they are not strong, much like many tribal warrior groups throughout history. Divide and conquer / Read Caesar's conquer of Gaul to understand this concept if ur interested. The fremen before paul had many weaknesses keeping them from succesfully removing the yoke of the imperium. Lack of unity is the first, 2nd is the lack of a strategy and understanding of the imperium's tactics/strategies and mostly politics
Hello, @Nerd Cookies. Because of watching both the 2021 and 1984 Dune and Dune part 2, I became a fan of your channel. It's because of the story of Dune, it led me to make a whole album/folder of handmade drawings about the story but in a literal medieval setting.
This is a necessary retcon just to make the plot workable in an MMO. After all we can't hardly have 100 Kwisatz Haderach's wandering around a worldspace can we.
This seems to leave out the strong reason for the golden path around the sentient self replicating hunter killers that it was intended to protect humanity from. (Apologies if I am mixing F.Herbert with his sons work)
I am very anxious about it. First of all I don't like gender swaps because I don't remember any one that would improve the adaptation. Secondly the book is a masterpiece in its own way so if developers don't want to be judged particularly harshly they have to make the story really good. I will treat it as a "what if" approach and hopefully this way it won't annoy me.
Funny. One major gripe I had with the last remake was how closely it followed tbe og plot. I know its common for directors to screw up timelines these days, but stories that trope them should really use them. This game plot serves as a reminder of that crestive fact!
This presents a timeline that will result in the extinction of mankind... so players can have fun joining houses and taking quests from characters from the books, that should be dead, but now live. It's ultimately pointless. (And I highly dislike the framing of this coming from Paul seeing a future in which he doesn't exist, because Paul saw the future, in which he already existed... AND he explains in that trailer, that the only good future, is one where he never existed... COMPLETELY ignoring the Golden Path...)
Thanks for this. I'm so sick of all the misinformation and deliberate attempts by some channels to twist the narrative of this game and distort the reality of a book they clearly never read. Now I can point people to your video when they want to turn their brain off and follow some hatemonger with a bad faith agenda.
I feel like the premise this game is pursuing fundamentally misunderstands the "would haves" of the story. Had Leto not had a boy, the Emperor does not take the threat of his popularity as seriously, the Atreides are not trapped on Arrakis, Leto's daughter IS Bene Gesserit, and the BG basically win the Imperial power struggle by default.
One thing i never understood was why didnt the Atreides family keep caladan like the Harkonnen kept gedi prime as well as arrakis they could have stayed on caladan and ran dune at the same time. Any answers??
I’m honestly surprised that I’m ok with these changes. I’ve read all the books so many times and am such an unrelenting canon-purists. But this has great potential. If they did a film or series with this concept I’d not be pleased. But in this media it seems fitting.
I STILL don't get why Jessica didn't also give Leto a daughter, and why it can seem like she, a crucial cog in the Sisterhood's machine was permitted to just cool her jets, on Caladan, and not produce results. It can get hazy deciding if the connected Bene Gesserit just didn't know about Paul, even though they told Jessica to only create daughters, with Leto, or if they just weren't keeping an eye on her, and thought she had spent 20 years a concubine who wasn't doing the one thing a concubine does. Paul is 15, I think, when Dune started. Am I to believe that, in 15 years,Leto and Jessica, who even had strong feelings for each other, couldn't find a chance to breed? If the info network got spotty, you'd think Jessica would make the girl just to throw off the BG, or at least deliver, if not also making am hier, but in DECADES she didn't manage? And in that time, the Sisterhood simplyv3asnt bothered, even as the Emperor's Soothsayer likely gleaned at least some of his plan? Also, all of this hinges on Leto making an army, but Duke Atreides usually seemed like a decent, upstanding man, so why was he building an army, and then one he'd later have to pay out the nose, to the Guild, to move offensively against any opponent? It would seem like the Emperor could, if he wanted, just bribe the Guild to refuse to passage Leto's forces, should he ever launch a conflict, and even this super-army seemed basically non-plus once conflict started. Only with the Fremen, whom Paul had to train in BG ways, were the Sardukar bested; whatevervforce Leto had seemed still well shy of bring ready.
Leto having a son at all to call an heir is a huge part of the reason the Emperor decides to send the Atriedes into the trap on Arrakis, so the damage was done. Adding a daughter after the fact is useless for the sisterhood unless the girl is taken from the family and raised apart, now, and Leto is far too family oriented to allow it.
I believe this is an interesting Idea. However, there is one problem I find in the "no Paul" scenario. Paul is already half Harkonen. If there is too much overlap, I would think you end up with more of a Hasimir Fenring situation. A failed attempt likely thwarted by long term inbreeding. There are tons of real-world examples I'll not point out where that sort of thing ends up happening with too much planning. As for the setting of an MMO, they are doing the story like this to create the tension needed to make a long last live service that payers... eck ehmm i mean players can grind out in the duneiverse for hours on end... daily... The last assassin war before dune lasted 87 years, between the Harkonen and House Corrino. Uhh, that's a lot of raids and clandestine fetch quests if they use a similar model... Just saying. lol
With just one what-if, you can get a myriad of possibilities, something Paul and later Leto were aware of. With any extra what-if, you get lost in the universe, or duneverse. As far as I can remember there was another bloodline very close, the one with Fenring, who btw got a extraordinary daughter with Lady Margot. This girl could possibly the mother of a Kwisatz Haderach if merged with Feyd-Rautha. Furthermore am I sure the sisters had created more paths to their ultimate goal
Given the reluctance shown by some to follow the source material, it sounds like a way for the creators to do something that's completely original. This may be awesome...🎉😮😎. Alas, I don't play multiplayer. 😖
They had their own kind of drug that made their eyes orange or yellow I can't remember which color. They were able to get the drug through the fear and pain of someone they would torture.
I'm sceptical. Much modern writing is rife with self inserts, fanfic of highly variable quality and outright hackery. It's a very interesting 'what if?' but it'll require extremely careful and clever handling. I'm not sure contemporary writing quality is up to it. Hope for the best. Expect the worst.
Dip’n dots might have been a path in Dune, they weren’t, but they might have been. That’s probably the best thing about great works that echo through time, there’s no might or maybe in them, they’re written down and you can read what they are.
Stuff Dune part 3. Loved part one, two was a rushed mess that missed out so much. Id of rather they adapted book into three films. Can’t see how they will do messiah now. They ruined the ending.
All this does is shoehorn feminism into yet another video game. I WILL NOT PAY FOR THAT. The whole point that women dealt with in this series is that they couldnt seeeeee evvverrryytthinnggg.....so there would came to be a male that would be able to see both and eventually get rid of it all after everything was accomplished. Its crap. Im not playing it.
Thank you for watching this video! If you enjoy my content, please consider supporting me on PATREON: www.patreon.com/nerdcookies
The scene in Dune where Paul has a vision in the tent is of a possible future where Jessica doesn't survive the desert this creating a future where Paul and Jamis are friends but no mother or sister to temper his rage for revenge. The future where Paul has no one to stop him is the worst possible future
The Darker Timeline. Like Paul said later:
All path lead into darkness
🗣️🦹🏻🪐🪐
I always thought the BG's assumption that they could control the KH was arrogant and short-sighted. It kinda defeats the whole purpose of the KH, who would surely beat his own drum regardless of his conditioning.
True, but the circumstances of his birth and early life would be vastly different and affect his personal goals.
@@cecilofs I think that having prescience dumped upon you would override any conditioning. With all possible futures exposed and full awareness of your past, plus knowledge of the machinations of the BG, I think it's in the nature of the KH to stand alone, independent of outside influence. Was Paul acting solely as a man seeking revenge against his enemies, or was he acting as the KH independent of his past and doing what he thought was right? We're led to believe it was the former, but was it really the latter? Maybe his ascension appeared to be a revenge scheme, but was really just an inevitable result of being the KH with full awareness.
I think this would occur regardless of who the KH happens to be.
I don't recall that Herbert ever addressed this, but I could be wrong.
Finally a gender-swap with an actual purpose that doesn’t contradict established canon.
This actually frees up the game to have a well developed story without going wildly out of the novels.
This sounds interesting.
The established canon is that lady Jessica had a son, you can read it clearly and plainly. Anything outside that is anti canonical heresy. They have not gone wildly out of the novels, they completely ignored them. It may be interesting in its own right, but it has nothing to do with Dune.
@@oso1248 Its the only way they could make an open world MMO set on Arrakis during the same time period. They aren't gaslighting fans, they are acknowledging its an alternate timeline. I think its an interesting take and am cautiously optimistic about the game.
I’m well aware of what you’re saying. I should have been clear in saying: that this is an alternate timeline of sorts. One whose possibility was mentioned in the books.
That being said, it could end up being terrible. Or it could be alright.
Pegasus the designers actually do want to go way off script in a negative way. Or perhaps building such a game with heavy story elements wouldn’t have allowed for nearly as much story Development if it fit into the first book.
I’m trying to be hopeful; but trust me, I understand.
That’s exactly my feelings on it as of now. I was initially disappointed at the news, but it does potentially open it up so that the player can actually affect the universe based on their choices in a way that a one to one adaptation could not.
It’ll either be great or trash in my opinion. But as you said, they’re up front about it and I think it could really work.
And I say this as a rabid, die hard Dune series fan whose the novels a dozens times or so. And I normally despise changes to the source material.
This is just an alternate time line.
@@cecilofsthere’s nothing stopping them from making an mmo during the time period
In God' Emperor of Dune, the novel says that humanity would go extinct if the golden path was not followed. Things were already at an inflection point in the time of Dune.
It's like the God Emperor was some kind of.. messiah.
Interesting video, Elaine. Psychopathy runs in families, and has a genetic component. With Fayd being a psychopath, there's a good probability the QH would also be a psychopath. In this timeline, the emperor would be like a combined Hitler/Stalin/Mao. Sounds fun to me!
Fair point, though Paul was already related to the Harkonnens.
I've always wondered just how the Harkonnen hunted the Fremen for sport. Unlike the movie, they don't use ballistics, bombs dropped from on high, and so "hunted" them on the ground. Since the Fremen are a match for the Sardaukar, just how could they have seen the Harkonnen as any sort of problem?
fremen arent as bad ass as a strategic military group until paul shows up. Before him they are a tactical nightmare and individual fighters and not united. Not united they are not strong, much like many tribal warrior groups throughout history. Divide and conquer / Read Caesar's conquer of Gaul to understand this concept if ur interested.
The fremen before paul had many weaknesses keeping them from succesfully removing the yoke of the imperium. Lack of unity is the first, 2nd is the lack of a strategy and understanding of the imperium's tactics/strategies and mostly politics
I don't really remember. Rabban once hunted a sandworm. He used explosives to kill it.
Can't help thinking of Doctor Strange's line about looking at millions of timelines and finding one where Paul was a female. ;)
Hello, @Nerd Cookies. Because of watching both the 2021 and 1984 Dune and Dune part 2, I became a fan of your channel. It's because of the story of Dune, it led me to make a whole album/folder of handmade drawings about the story but in a literal medieval setting.
This is a necessary retcon just to make the plot workable in an MMO. After all we can't hardly have 100 Kwisatz Haderach's wandering around a worldspace can we.
Looks like a fascinating plot for a game. Reminds me the plot of "Emperor's battle for Dune" RTS game a little bit.
Love this channel - Glad the intro music is back -
♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥
There are also other outcomes where paul chose to flee dune back to caladan but he ends up getting betrayed and killed
I really enjoy these alternative videos. Great video Elaine.
Paul doesn't exist so the Fremen can't win, the Baron, Feyd and Rabban survived.
I like this timeline 😈
These alternative path is one of many that Paul seen. We just get the privilege to play one of them.
Elaine- the greatest Dune Hypeman ever.
This seems to leave out the strong reason for the golden path around the sentient self replicating hunter killers that it was intended to protect humanity from. (Apologies if I am mixing F.Herbert with his sons work)
I have to admit that Rebecca Grayson's lady jessica was definitely an excellent casting call in that film.
Fascinating implications. And yes, this was indeed a thoroughly enjoyable video.
That a great hook for a story
For a game, these changes sound awesome.
I am very anxious about it. First of all I don't like gender swaps because I don't remember any one that would improve the adaptation. Secondly the book is a masterpiece in its own way so if developers don't want to be judged particularly harshly they have to make the story really good. I will treat it as a "what if" approach and hopefully this way it won't annoy me.
Funny. One major gripe I had with the last remake was how closely it followed tbe og plot. I know its common for directors to screw up timelines these days, but stories that trope them should really use them.
This game plot serves as a reminder of that crestive fact!
This is the ONLY game I'm looking forward to all year.
This presents a timeline that will result in the extinction of mankind... so players can have fun joining houses and taking quests from characters from the books, that should be dead, but now live. It's ultimately pointless. (And I highly dislike the framing of this coming from Paul seeing a future in which he doesn't exist, because Paul saw the future, in which he already existed... AND he explains in that trailer, that the only good future, is one where he never existed... COMPLETELY ignoring the Golden Path...)
Saw your Luke Skywalker tweet. Nicely played Elaine. Nicely played. Cheers for the vid.
Thanks for this. I'm so sick of all the misinformation and
deliberate attempts by some channels to twist the narrative
of this game and distort the reality of a book they clearly never read.
Now I can point people to your video when they want to turn their
brain off and follow some hatemonger with a bad faith agenda.
I feel like the premise this game is pursuing fundamentally misunderstands the "would haves" of the story. Had Leto not had a boy, the Emperor does not take the threat of his popularity as seriously, the Atreides are not trapped on Arrakis, Leto's daughter IS Bene Gesserit, and the BG basically win the Imperial power struggle by default.
Love the channel/content/host. Thanks for all the awesome videos.
One thing i never understood was why didnt the Atreides family keep caladan like the Harkonnen kept gedi prime as well as arrakis they could have stayed on caladan and ran dune at the same time. Any answers??
Thank you, Nerd Cookies
Be sure to let people know when ur on other peoples live streams
U DID GREAT ON FILM THREAT RECENTLY👍
I’m honestly surprised that I’m ok with these changes. I’ve read all the books so many times and am such an unrelenting canon-purists.
But this has great potential. If they did a film or series with this concept I’d not be pleased. But in this media it seems fitting.
I STILL don't get why Jessica didn't also give Leto a daughter, and why it can seem like she, a crucial cog in the Sisterhood's machine was permitted to just cool her jets, on Caladan, and not produce results. It can get hazy deciding if the connected Bene Gesserit just didn't know about Paul, even though they told Jessica to only create daughters, with Leto, or if they just weren't keeping an eye on her, and thought she had spent 20 years a concubine who wasn't doing the one thing a concubine does. Paul is 15, I think, when Dune started. Am I to believe that, in 15 years,Leto and Jessica, who even had strong feelings for each other, couldn't find a chance to breed? If the info network got spotty, you'd think Jessica would make the girl just to throw off the BG, or at least deliver, if not also making am hier, but in DECADES she didn't manage? And in that time, the Sisterhood simplyv3asnt bothered, even as the Emperor's Soothsayer likely gleaned at least some of his plan?
Also, all of this hinges on Leto making an army, but Duke Atreides usually seemed like a decent, upstanding man, so why was he building an army, and then one he'd later have to pay out the nose, to the Guild, to move offensively against any opponent? It would seem like the Emperor could, if he wanted, just bribe the Guild to refuse to passage Leto's forces, should he ever launch a conflict, and even this super-army seemed basically non-plus once conflict started. Only with the Fremen, whom Paul had to train in BG ways, were the Sardukar bested; whatevervforce Leto had seemed still well shy of bring ready.
Leto having a son at all to call an heir is a huge part of the reason the Emperor decides to send the Atriedes into the trap on Arrakis, so the damage was done. Adding a daughter after the fact is useless for the sisterhood unless the girl is taken from the family and raised apart, now, and Leto is far too family oriented to allow it.
I believe this is an interesting Idea. However, there is one problem I find in the "no Paul" scenario. Paul is already half Harkonen. If there is too much overlap, I would think you end up with more of a Hasimir Fenring situation. A failed attempt likely thwarted by long term inbreeding. There are tons of real-world examples I'll not point out where that sort of thing ends up happening with too much planning. As for the setting of an MMO, they are doing the story like this to create the tension needed to make a long last live service that payers... eck ehmm i mean players can grind out in the duneiverse for hours on end... daily... The last assassin war before dune lasted 87 years, between the Harkonen and House Corrino. Uhh, that's a lot of raids and clandestine fetch quests if they use a similar model... Just saying. lol
With just one what-if, you can get a myriad of possibilities, something Paul and later Leto were aware of. With any extra what-if, you get lost in the universe, or duneverse. As far as I can remember there was another bloodline very close, the one with Fenring, who btw got a extraordinary daughter with Lady Margot. This girl could possibly the mother of a Kwisatz Haderach if merged with Feyd-Rautha. Furthermore am I sure the sisters had created more paths to their ultimate goal
Margot’s daughter was Feyd Rautha. Fenring himself was sterile.
@@barbara9315 Oh yeah, thats true, thanks for reminding me 🙂
@@barbara9315Fenring was a eunuch
Thanks!
Thanks Elaine
Given the reluctance shown by some to follow the source material, it sounds like a way for the creators to do something that's completely original. This may be awesome...🎉😮😎. Alas, I don't play multiplayer. 😖
Why didn't the Honored Matres need to use the Spice Melange?
They had their own kind of drug that made their eyes orange or yellow I can't remember which color. They were able to get the drug through the fear and pain of someone they would torture.
Interesting story. I hope this game has weird stuff in it.
I absolutely HATE multiverse and time travel stories. I will give this a pass.
Understandable.
@@NerdCookies ... in my mind, there are so many great Fremen, smuggler, and minor house stories that could be told.
Agree, nothing has any meaning, if you can just travel back in time, or come up with another timeline at any point.
My very non-trinocular vision tells me I'm gonna spend a hell of a lot of time playing this game. 😅
i'm meh on this. the idea is ok, but current hollywood...
The second child would have been male. Raised in a much harsher environment the jihad would have started 10-15 years earlier the rest is the same .
I'm sceptical. Much modern writing is rife with self inserts, fanfic of highly variable quality and outright hackery. It's a very interesting 'what if?' but it'll require extremely careful and clever handling. I'm not sure contemporary writing quality is up to it.
Hope for the best. Expect the worst.
I just don’t see the point of exploring a doomed timeline.
Dip’n dots might have been a path in Dune, they weren’t, but they might have been. That’s probably the best thing about great works that echo through time, there’s no might or maybe in them, they’re written down and you can read what they are.
Stuff Dune part 3. Loved part one, two was a rushed mess that missed out so much. Id of rather they adapted book into three films. Can’t see how they will do messiah now. They ruined the ending.
All this does is shoehorn feminism into yet another video game. I WILL NOT PAY FOR THAT. The whole point that women dealt with in this series is that they couldnt seeeeee evvverrryytthinnggg.....so there would came to be a male that would be able to see both and eventually get rid of it all after everything was accomplished. Its crap. Im not playing it.
🍸