IT'S TIME TO REPLACE THIS ONE
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- Опубликовано: 21 окт 2023
- The time has come to get rid of this unit.
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If you use the GPS option it does the settings automatically based on where it is installed. Manual settings are just if you want to override the automatic. Maybe they should have labeled one "Easy Setup" and the other "Advanced". At least they give you the advanced option if you want to go that deep into it.
Yeah I’m sure I would have figured that out if they sent the installation instructions….
@@HVACRVIDEOS Beyond that, I am sure you said it before as well. Take the time to let them know, that way they can improve. An app easily should be able to do the math for you these days. But maybe no one building the App had this in his or her mindset.
As cheap as Wifi or bluetooth modules are to build in into such a device, for those "industrial applications" I can see why they want to use a separate USB dongle. That way not everyone can simply mess with it. Or they are jus carrying on with the stuff they came up with about 15 years ago.
@@HVACRVIDEOS I think that's not a Siemens fault. It's a factory fault by the company that built the unit - I would say shit quality control...... especially with the dip switches set wrong. Siemens normal send with their products a thick manual incl. a trouble shooting section. The unit producer just failed to give it to you.
You are 100% correct about this economizer set up, it’s not going to survive the airstream, and most will become disconnected just like the old days. I don’t think the design engineers have a good grasp on the real world conditions these have to function in. Thanks
They put the expensive module where nature can turn it into a brick. It's no wonder that the dampers are cracked open and left there when the gadgets fail. Nobody wants to spend the money on something that fails in a couple of years.
Manufacturers should be sending their engineers to the field occasionally for some real world experience. Lot of other industries do that.
@@jesusismful 100% engineers should spend time in the field to see the application of the parts they design
I would like to see what the device looks like a year or two years from now. They can build it to survive in those conditions. And for certain sensors it absolutely makes sense to put it in that place. I just wonder if then a disconnected sensor module would make more sense, allowing the main module to be tucked away where it does get less dirt and dust, and possibly moisture. I do not assume it would be exposed to direct rainwater, unless the thing gets right into a hurricane with the economiser open, but hey, even that could happen in other places.
I bet over time this thing may not get disconnected, but it will be well covered in dirt and grime, and I suspect on the connectors, especially in places with higher humidity, corrosion would become an issue.
@@jesusismful Most of the time it's the damn managment/ bean counters that zero engineering skills that f things up.
"Smart" appliances that require an app to work properly need to stop.
Honestly I prefer an app but it still needs to be easy to use
@HVACRVIDEOS at least the app for the Lennox Core is way easier to use and set up the unit....not like this POS
At the minimum if it's required to connect with it, should come with a direct WiFi already installed, to make it removable probably cost just as much. Just a way for them to sell you something extra.
Locally hosted web portal would be better than an app
Software devs or whoever is on top of them riding them trying to joust each other have earned my ire. They are going to start my villain arc someday...
But in all seriousness, I am not that old and I have no idea who they think they are designing these apps for. Every human I have seen use on of these newer generation apps has the same difficulties. No matter the age they are.
I don't do HVAC work for a living. I do IT work. I play around with automotive electronics for fun. Looking at the Siemens setup, this is the proper way to configure, setup and test the equipment. I did notice the open/close set points for the damper . Plug and play things are usually plug and pray. Complain to Siemens that the WiFi stick isn't integrated into the board or that an Ethernet port isn't on the board.
That's pretty scary that the crane operator lifted the new unit up and over you before you signaled for it. Thanks so much for taking us along on this one Chris.
It’s crazy they are using hand signals with a crane operator and there’s no rigger/dog man with the crane
@@BrickTop900 In my area, you typically only get 1 dude driving up in a crane until you get up to 90+ ton cranes.
Half the time, the guys running sign trucks and 25 ton cranes don't even know hand signals.
LOL, I used to work for Siemens, while I do not know that device specifically, I do know many manufacturers make it difficult for people to make easy changes. Hey, after all, it's a service call after that.
The placement alone is insane. In the direct airflow of outside air. Those economizer filters aren't going to protect it from the elements.
yeah, i live in ashrae climate zone 6a (cold humid) and this thing would maybe last two years here if you're lucky lol
I bet they determined that they needed air flow or they would overheat and fail. Sound familiar to the constantly failing VFD in the blower compartment?!?!?
The Honeywell Jade controllers are my favorite. Even despite the random temp sensor failures. Easy to set up and affordable too
And the display failures!!!
Display is there, but can't read it.
Engineers have to stay relevant and constantly change things. Sales wants to have more SKUs to sell. Both don't spend a day in the field and quasi ignore customer feedback via Service.. That Econo control location was ludicrous. You would think DIP switch verify would be a factory commission tick box. Great job on patience and perseverance Chris!
Correct way to fix it is to leave the jumper plug in and not use the economizer at all. I Hate economizers. Always causing problems.
Yeah im not doing the setup if they make it that complicated on the economizer. I dont mind if they did like a ke2 style in which you plug in with an internet cable and able to control the entire unit i could see setting it up
Your tech had his leads backwards when initially checking phase rotation. Black lead goes on L1, red moves between L2 and L3. It was probably ok when you initially checked it.
Ever since you taught me about the loosen tighten on the power lugs and set screws I use it for tightening Whirlpools refrigerator handle set screws. It keeps the handles from coming loose. Good tip for many applications.
I wonder why they are playing around with improper fasteners. A hex or torx head fastener is a way more reliable way to ensure proper faster pressure.
@@leonphelps123 that's what they use they or their machine don't know how to tighten them correctly.
Same controller in Lennox. I walked away from it
Carrier's new slogan "1..2..3..., Please Don't Blow Up"
20:21 That's actually a good idea to rely more on pictures then voice, (especially if their call center is EASL). I've lost count how many times doing tech support for my Pops (70+) & his friends and just wind up being baffled by the words they use to describe the issue at hand. Unless there isn't any other option I refuse for the sake of the sanity of everyone involved to do troubleshooting by phone alone. I request pictures as S.O.P. and if possible request video conference via Signal.
Its nice they take something simple and make it far more complicated than it needs to be . Carrier is the master of "value added" complication.
the 80's were such a perfect time for HVAC .. why did they need to over complicate something that had always worked.
you can thank the epa for that
The manufacturers:
Oh yeah!
Well now and just because of your winning we are going up an extra notch to make it even more difficult!!
Just like 9-16watts ecm motor in refrigeration case or evaporator.
You need specific key tools to configure dual speed rpm from a range to 500 to 2100. Each keys cost more than 200$
Why th F.
I think the reason for the dongle, is most likely security. If the wifi is built in, anyone can go mess with the economizer. if you need an external attachment, then it's less likely someone is going to mess with it. Think of patrons with the app messing with the a/c settings in a random location.
During setup, you could be forced to change passwords or wifi password. This would cut this out .
@@leonphelps123true but you can still hacked into it if you know how.
on the same token, a wifi dongle should be $20 or less, not $100.
@@leonphelps123 But still leaves the (highly likely) possibility of a bug in the software which would allow people to attack it anyway. Plus people choose obvious passwords.
I'd rather a USB cord over WiFi anyway, yeah it's an extra cord, but removes having specialized things for just 1
love the video.
i am reminded of a saying from one of the trek movies.
the more complected you make the pluming the easier it is to stop up the drain.
That’s crazy. I deal with very few economizers in the few light commercial jobs I do. A few years ago we did a field installed Ruud Economizer on a new unit. That Honeywell controller works amazingly, I’ve also done new Trane field installed economizer that are just stupid to install then there is zero information how to set those thing up, I have one that I’ve never figured out.
Good morning Chris, hope you have a good day, cool replacement, i love drawing and watch the units you fix and replace
These controllers are a result of bms systems that kitchens use unless its in a hospital, high rise, or network. Most of these places use controls like Siemens and are easily tied in to the bms system where you have an engineer do the programming. The capabilities of this controller is beyond the jade. Doesnt make it easier to navigate and use. Carrier just probably had to many orders with this controller and determined to get rid of the honewell unless asked specifically.
Wait until you see the black magic my Daikin air conditioner needs, when it asks for a firmware update. And it only has 3 buttons.
Catching up on your old videos !!!
Thanks for watching!
I recently installed some Greenheck exh fans that didn’t behave properly on startup. After investigating, you had to download an app and scan a QR code to link the fan to the app via Bluetooth. Once connected and configured it worked fine, and the app and setup worked great, but it seems unnecessarily complicated for what could have been a fan with a rheostat. And these things are not easy to access, being 20’ off the ground on a sidewall. At this point it’s been 4 months and the fan already forgot it’s programming once.
JCI (York) does the same thing with their enthalpy settings on their failure prone economizer control modules
Unfortunately, engineers don’t think like service people. I hope they listen to your brilliant suggestion. Mine don’t.
I think the goal will be Remote Energy Management to configure and monitor Title 24 compliance?
Good video for the economizer, their is a school in Los Alamitos called NCI that has economizer classes , but the one seams confusing
Noticed technical support and equipment settings moving more towards a centralized support center, (less local field tech. setup). You are *so spot-on* about information sharing / training for the field personnel, (at the on-site equipment level). During new equipment installs, the support folks would have the local tech connect to the equipment, then ask for screen-control permission to your equipment through your locally-connected device,(with internet access also), so they could fly through the settings and then quickly say -> bye. (Keeping the *setup know-how to themselves* ).
With your Fieldpiece meter when checking Phase rotation, your black lead is L1 and Red lead is L2 and L3. Made the same mistake with mine then realized its stamped near the leads.
Dude you are totally a genius. Can you imagine what that USB port is going to look like in a couple months?
Chris, I get it, I ranted about that 23 years ago, on the shit setups on Economizers back in 2000. I always said if it is a 7-ton or larger commercial unit only make the things with built-in economizers right from the factory that are built into the equipment and pice them so companies would not try to go cheap with after-market crap that never seem to work right or brakes down all the time from shit concepts and bad parts. Plus if the silly thing is not working right, how is that economizing shit in fact it wastes energy and lowers the efficacy of the equipment. Oh man, I am like you, you get me started and the rant on just dumb ideas from manufacturers I could go on for hours. lol
No more blower motor and belt drive ?
Just disconnect the linkage and screw it closed forever.
I’m also doing the Gas licence We have gas 3 , gas 2 and gas 1 which G1 is the highest level, you can work on unlimited BTUH G2 you can work independently and up to 400,000 btu
My non-hvac opinion on the economiser: the app should have a calculator built in. The unit itself do not have to have one. But put the calculator on the app! Can be a simple button to swap units or something.
the green and blue markers on terminals is to show they've been checked/inspected and torqued/connected to proper terminals. not for the field installer to look at/follow/assume it means anything.
A lot of labor goes into that installation ... Thx Bud
Totally agree on making things easier. Just did a replacement of a 100% outside air hydronic Air Handler for a kitchen. The new one is a Nortek Temtrol unit. Looking at the documentation from it, couldn't figure out where to land my fan run signal. Had to trace the wires back from the ABB VFD through the bypass relays to figure out the terminals. Like come on. How hard is it to put on the wiring diagram that terminals 205 and 206 of TB1 are the field supplied run signal?
Best line I've ever heard from a tradesman... "You gotta do math! It's just dumb." 😂
I remember the days when opening the window and letting in the breeze was new technology
A couple of things i noticed…the actuator will come either programmed “fail to open” or “fail to close”, so the manufacturer doesn’t know which program u would want and u would have to change it on the dip switch and that’s y u we’re getting that error code in the beginning…also the economizer shouldn’t be that complicated if your going by enthalpy because all you have to do is go buy ur gps location…it may seem complicated but if u work with them a lot it would become easier the more u do it
When would you want a "fail to open" scenario?
@@jrsmyth9761 I work at a sewage laboratory where they needed 100% outside air with no return and the economizer was a fail to open…the actuator would modulate depending on the building static pressure
They said "computers will make your life easier" I'm still waiting 😮
Hi i work for a school district in florida and we are having a hard time with carrier units, they put all this electronic controls which is so stupid. I.m not a hvac tech but i see my guys struggle with this and we ran into problems even with lead times on new units between 7 to 9 months! We had a rep from daikin come down and he can get us units in 3 months. Getting back to the problem with all the electronic displays and seimens controls its really not needed just more to go wrong.
Loved this video! I’ve been saying it for a while now. These manufacturers send us technicians parts with terrible instructions and don’t tell us or show us or to install them or how they even work. Shame on them. Thanks for the video!
Same in the UK 🙈
The amount of headache I’ve been having with Siemens lately. I am the facilities manager for a company running a city building. The city manages all preventative maintenance like hvac, chillers, etc. They were told in writing and given recordings regarding the preventative maintenance for the HVAC. The units require grease and filters every two months but between the city and Siemens PM service, the units only got bid and sold on quarterly filters and annual PM’s now 10 months after opening, and one year from startup 4/7 RTUs are down from blown out bearings. And of course when the bearings go, the destroys the blower and the bell housing. Plus the damned blower motor if it isn’t caught immediately. On top of this, the Siemens Bac-net controllers are constantly getting soaked by rain because they penetrated the weather rated electrical boxes from the top instead of the sides. These boxes aren’t even rated for that type of penetration.
Good tech support is priceless!
Just a idea we put the line voltage in conduit from disconnect to the electrical section case some sprays water near the backside of the disconnect while cleaning coil
We just installed the same unit and same economizer, well we actually installed a Bryant. They also sent us the manual for the Honeywell economizer but its a siemens haha. EVERYTHING in this video happened to us! We got our unit from Slakey Bros in Sacramento
It's the same in the appliance field certain manufacturers have updates for fixes that either need a module to update,a technician with their internet diagnostic tool , and one that'll automatically update if the homeowner has it connected to WiFi. You shouldn't have to pay a service fee to a company to update an appliance they already paid for when they can send an update over the Internet. Plus the manufacturers that have to have a diagnostic tool for a huge subscription cost just to be able to work on their appliances. All to save costs and make money.
Hazarding a guess, one of those appliance service technician subscription services is "SmartHQ Service", formerly GE NewFi?
Though I'm not an official appliance repair person, I try to learn how to take care of and troubleshoot the appliances in my own home. Getting a cooktop with WiFi (not intentionally sought out), only to find out the service mode is locked behind an app was a disappointment.
27#BtuH is 75 degree and 68 pct humidity. The D setting basically from old honeywell which 23BtuH 55 degree and 45 pct.
Great points. Thanks, 28:25 Chris.
Always learned something, great video.
Great Video. Thank you for sharing.
I feel bad for those restaurants having to call these guys now. It is cold weather season now which is a slow time for HVAC and slow time means more ripping offs customers.
Thank you, sir, for another awesome video! Ya know, some of your sites have some really nice views... You are busy working, but we get to enjoy! Ha! Keep them coming! Best!
I love that you cut yourself off mid-sentence with the intro XD
I find that hilarious.
Look into pelican controls. They make some really awesome communication modules. Simple easy to use economizers t-stats sensors and gateways
Did you see the download required prompt when you connected to the economizer?
Our economizers come from micro metal they use jade but on the small residential they started using belimo
new carrier unit I installed came with actuator installed backwards too lol
i totally agree with you on the economizer issue. i've also found tech support so freaking helpful. I love their help but i hate that i need to call them.
Good class Chris 👍🏽
Best part of the video was the rant, we all feel the same way and you get to be our voice to these junk companies like Trane 😏
Chris. All economizers are a pain in the ass. It just seems like it’s the one thing these manufactures can’t seem to make easy.
7:10 I just installed the same model of unit, but 460v, last week and noticed the same thing about the green paint on the L3 lug, even our part time shop helper said that was dumb!🤣
They sent us an Economizer with the Jade controller that goes in the unit's control compartment, but I had to dig the wires for the outdoor temperature sensor out of the units wiring harness and modify their routing because the 4 pin harness that came with the economizer was not long enough to reach them. There were also no instructions for where to mount the temperature sensor in the blower compartment with that axial fan.
Not sure how I feel about the tandem compressor setup, I'd almost rather they had stuck with the 2 step scroll.
There’s usually an L shaped bracket they include with the MAT sensor that gets mounted near the front left of the fan compartments. There’s some screw holes that match up to that bracket in the area. Otherwise, I’ve always just screwed it flat to the right of the fan kinda out of the way.
@@jasonunderwood4574 I ended up screwing it to the outside of the blue shroud around the fan.
There was no bracket for it, instructions only showed where to put it on a conventional blower housing.
Could just be a case of the economizer we got being old inventory.
The place started off with 7 of the exact same R-22 unit. We have been replacing 1 a year for 3 years, and each time the "direct replacement" for the original has had something drastically different from the previous one.
By the time they replace all 7, they may have 7 units that all look the same on the outside, but are very different on the inside.
Fun times!🤣
good to see they pre-damaged the condensing coil from the factory, left some pretty deep marks too
Nice work and video Chris.
Good luck getting that wifi stick to work when that usb port is caked with grease in 10 years. And as much as I think having bulk setting tools are useful I question if that app will be available 10 years from now or be maintained to work with newer devices.
and thats why we have at least here in germany classes. something new comes to market > learn it. u want to install home automation > visit seminars and get ur cert to show yes your able to do it.
u wonder why the wifi is not build in. its simple. 1: security 2: whole roof full of the same units.. whish one is the one u want to program? a? b? c? d? 3: wifi standard changed and your phone dosnt support it anymore. whats cheaper, buy new dongle? or replace every unit?
8:36 on that note, have your techs on insulated mats when they're working on live, I don't know if you do that but I'd highly recommend it.
Ypu wearong rubber work boot using an insulated screwdriver you find
another great video , and the Scavenger's Daughter music during crane lift fit well with October/Halloween respect to your patience and perseverance figuring stuff out
it's all good
Good job Chris.
Chris, don't sell yourself short. You are smarter than most. I agree that a lot of electronic controllers are very poorly designed. They should be flexible, but easy to use.
I agree those Siemens controls are junk. I haven’t gotten a printed instructions on them. Just a link form the QR code. I’ve had to print it off so I have a hard copy to reference.
I have also had 4-5 units that are wired wrong from factory and have no damper operation. All through the buttons on it. My company refuses to buy the WiFi stick
Educating the industry?? They don’t even know. Called tech support on a brand new rtu that said call tech support for wiring diagram. And hooked up and tested smoke detector that had a comp high pressure alarm on board. Even York stopped putting economizer modules in outside air
Daikin for example were fitting phase rotation protection back in the 90's.. I can't believe manufacturers don't protect their own kit properly. Are you sure this isn't already built in to the PCB? Mind you the wiring is a total mess so Carrier don't seem to have much pride in their equipment
The Siemens control is the Carrier economizer. They stopped using the Jade control. The factory economizer is still made by micrometyl and the jade is no more.
Great video as always.
Siemens probably has some dirty deals going on with the manufacturer
Nice video and job 🙌👌👍😊🍀
What are your experiences with the crane companies? On time? Good service? Ty for sharing.
Hi Chris, is it possible the RTU you received was some kind of ex-demo unit for the economizer? It really does not make sense having a control module in such a location, especially one that is vented like that. It's just waiting for moisture and badness to enter and destroy it. To my mind, such controllers should be with the rest of the control gear in a safe place. Like you say, the manufacturers need to get their act together.
This is why I'm a big fan of open-source and open standards. From what I've seen, the HVAC industry (and construction) need a lot more such standards. In an ideal world the package unit could be pre-wired for an economizer because their would be open standards for connectors and pinouts, etc, that everyone could follow without having to pay licensing royalties and such like. It would become manufacturer-agnostic with the same wiring but the ability to use hardware from any manufacturer and it will just work.
You look like you've been really busy recently and maybe not sleeping as well as you have. I hope you get chance to recover. Good health to you, Chris!
love your videos
Hey Chris I just passed my 313a refrigeration and ac system mechanic licence in canada. Interprovincial across canada . I’m soo happy . Was wondering in the states what’s the highest level of certification you can get in the states
What's on the red seal so I know what to study lol???
@@kailesadler13 you live in canada ?
Your 100% correct.
Pro fix on the outlet. 👍
I hope I'm right , i think they paint two blue and one green then unit also can be wired two phases function ,instead of three phases ,maybe ?
That Siemens thing reminds me PLC controllers that was made ~30 years ago. 😂 ... Even the setup seems to be still as hard as possible, like then, after more than 1/4 century of technological evolution. 😂😅😂
Even though your distributor was bundling the Siemens economizer, were you able to get a Honeywell model instead?
The wi-f adapter being removable might make more sense from a security angle. If it's not there advertising an SSID to the world, that closes off one possible avenue for exploits, especially with a hardcoded, common password. (That's another kind of dumb, but still common.) Of course, it would be smarter to have the module built in, a random password unique to each unit, and maybe even a pushbutton to turn the wi-fi on or off as the technician needs it.
I think with the econnimizer setting with the enthalpy. I don't think it's asking you to do calculate total btu for total cfm. I think it's just asking what you want it at per pound of air. So if you wanted it with a 55F supply air with 50% humidity, you'll just set the enthalpy about 18.5btu using the phycrometric chart.
"using the phycrometric chart." Someone should make an app so you can just enter the desired humidity without needing to mess around with charts! Wait....
Seriously, why the manual lookup? It's already a freaking app. Make the computer do that shit.
When the RA enthalpy is higher than the OA enthalpy, the economizer should kick on.
Why are the fuses bare copper and not tinned so they don't oxidize?
You would have thought the building owner would ask you which AC unit to buy as a replacement. You know which AC units are good and which are junk.
I died when you were like carrier you are dumb 😂💀 “take it easy” naco libre voice 😂
i just installed the same unit a few days ago and have same issue with economizer fully opening on power up. What were the dipswitch settings you were given for the actuator?
They are supposed to make it easier awesome video
Rolling on the floor😂😂😂 you said what I been saying since the first piece of computer hardware was added to units!!! What is wrong with SIMPLE???? 😂 it’s like some of the residential heat units used here in Michigan.. it has come to a point that you have to go to “their” schooling and buy their super high$$$ test equipment to service their units ! AN the all DC control units?? The motors are above an beyond realistic cost😢😢 when it is cheaper for the customer to hire me to replace a 4 year old unit with another brand than repair the existing unit?? That is unrealistic stupid!!!! Give the customer the choice $2800. Repair $2000. Replace? You know what they are going to do. ( years and cost are Just examples) but scary close to reality.. I am all for high Teck and operating cost efficiency.. but at what price?? lol see?? You’re not the only one that can go on a rant and rave 🤣🤣🤣
(edited fur a small spell boo boo)