This isn't part of the game it can be run on the browser, it doesn't talk to the game, doesn't take game data. This can't be considered Cheating because it doesn't fall in to the ToS. If using a Sim is cheating then looking up a guide is cheating.
@@ItsSVO If you are in pilot training and you would say that you don't want to practice flying in flight simulators, they would think that you're an idiot.
@ yes, because simulators are the only way to actually practice flying physically without endangering human life. XIV provides a way to practice ultimate mechanics, by going into the fight itself and getting to said mechanic and practicing it. If you couldn’t safely practice XIV mechanics in game I’d say simulators are fine, but that isn’t the case.
@ItsSVO You are willingly wasting other peoples time tho. In FFXIV it's not about life endangering, the sim is to safe time. Not just your own but the time of the other 7 ppl who are raiding with you. Especially in PF.
Ive said it before and ill say it again. People who complain about this stuff dont raid or have never done ultimates through pf, and probably never will. Edit: Yall are weird for trying to put ultimates on some kinda pedestal that is unclearable to 99% of the playerbase. Ultimates are not THAT difficult even without sims and add-ons. They are there to ultimately cut time on progging since not all of us can be degenerate losers lmao. Whether or not sims or add ons exist people WILL eventually clear them regardless and it is actual gremlin behavior to care about something like that.
Yup those same people have never experienced the anxiety of always fucking up one specific mechanic, so instead of wasting precious prog time you practice so you don’t hold your entire group back 😅
@davidbai3543 Right its like sims dont play the game for you neither do add-ons like "afflatus misery". They help you, but you still need to actually do the mechs correctly like its not a complete faceroll. Thats why i say people who complain about this stuff doesnt have any raid or pf experience.
@@blackmagekongs2588that's okay, whatever float your boat. There are people who are gonna justify cheats no matter what. These same people are the ones who think they are good 😂
This, just this. The people complaining will never do the content, they're just mad because they don't want to learn anything about ultimates and pretend that the people who do, are cheating/their achievement isn't that big because they used a sim, which is quite ironic coming from someone that will prob never clear the fight xD
Well you're wrong. This stuff is unquestionably bad for the game. It creates an unfair contrast between people who use it and don't. It encourages people to be anal when someone messes up a mechanic ingame. It creates a bias feedback loop for the developers on how difficult the content should be. On top of that we have things likr ACT that tells you where to go for mechanics and perfects your rotation which has the same issues. If we didn't have these tools people would be more focused on building communities and helping each other to get better and explore harder content. The primary focus would be on enjoying prog and clearing content not parsing and speedrunning the clear so you can go do something else. The endgame raids are now dominated by gatekeepers that use all these tools to get ahead and get bitter and resentful over people who don't perform as well. Devs have had to make content so difficult it can barely be cleared in pf without third party. It's not good.
I cleared TEA in PF and used the sims while waiting for the parties to fill. I cleared on the 360th pull and it would have probably taken 3 times that without it.
The first time I got to phase 3 I made it all the way to wormhole and even did my part right. Would have taken way longer for me to get phase 3 without it.
I >mostly< agree with Xeno about the sims, however it is actually false to think of the sim as a be all end all solution. For instance, the sim teaches you HOW to resolve it, but it will be different in game. Both from the visual tells and minor mistakes/differences between the sim and in game. You also aren't focusing on additional things, such as dealing damage, healing, or mitigating. I believe there was also an article where Yoshi-P was asked about sims and was ok with it because it didn't interact with the game data, but did also give the usual warning of being careful since SE has no control over these sims and that players interacted with them at their own risk. My bigger issue personally is the RELIANCE on addons and plugins, cause the second they're down then a lot of people can't do the mechanics. Hell, I've met people who can't even resolve Nael's lightning debuffs without AM, so there very much is for some people an overreliance on outside tools.
That is an unfortunate thing and says more about the person using the AM than the AM itself. I do think that needing the tools to prog is bad, but some people also do not and just will not spend the brainpower on remembering those mechanics. Sad. The way to stop is to encourage newbies to learn mechanics and master their job but as long as the community remains divided in purist and doesn't have a healthy middle ground, then a lot more of the AM proggers pop up
i actually think the fact that these tools are used means ultimate should just have checkpoints cause this basically bypasses that , i am not sure what the point of no checkpoints is other than just wasting huge amounts of time
I'm a pilot in training, and if I told my flight school I don't want to practice IFR on a flight simulator, not only would they think I'm an idiot, they'd tell me I can't get my certification if I don't register my required simulator hours. Simulators are a must for a lot of learning, cutting time, and knowledge building. Now, in a goddamn video game, which isn't even a competitive game but coop, why on Earth wouldn't I use a simulator to practice mechanics that are far into a boss fight and avoid wasting everyone's time by wiping over and over until I get it right?
Maybe because a major part of the difficulty is in getting back to your prog point to be able to practice it? Is a simulator cheating? Absolutely not, but it does cheat the integrity of the fight 100% I hope they just stop ultimate altogether because it’s clear the ones who claim to like it don’t actually want to do it at this point. I say this as somebody who does ultimates as well. If they continue ultimates I at least want Yoshi P to start putting checkpoints after each phase going forward just to see the Hypocrisy when people start moan big that it makes the fight too easy, despite that being exactly what people who use sims are doing currently.
bro a pilot is responsible for the lives of everybody on the plane no shit you want those people to be qualified any means necessary. You don't care how they get good, you only care about them getting there
@@ItsSVO "Maybe because a major part of the difficulty is in getting back to your prog point to be able to practice it" I play with a static and may be in a bubble, so take this with a grain of salt: I fundamentally disagree with your central point on this. Getting back to the prog point is only a time issue, not a difficulty in itself, because if you're doing Ultimates you're not expected to be wiping a lot in mechanics you already know, you're supposed to be a consistent player (of course once in a while an early wipe may happen, but it's not supposed to be frequent). Wipes happen in, or close, to the prog point. Once the group sees the mechanic, we wanna get back there everytime. And to add to that, in DSR, to me, the checkpoint makes the fight harder, since we see the door bosses a lot less and do that phase a lot less (once per lockout) than Thordan (in every pull), so in there, specifically, there may be more mistakes. But hey, I'm kind of a weird player. What I find difficult, others may find easy. And what I find easy, others may have trouble with. I usually die exactly once to every mechanic, and then never make a mistake there again, but maybe to other statics consistency is more of an issue than it is in mine. And at the end of the day it's a decision of the group. If your group wants to prog without sims, cool, go for it, you do you.
@ yes, it’s a time issue which is exactly what part of the difficulty of an ultimate is and has always been advertised as. I agree it’s a choice, but it objectively ruins the integrity of the fight and reduced the intended difficulty significantly. I personally just don’t understand why people insist on doing ultimates when the content clearly isn’t designed for them. If you need to use a sim for ultimates then the content isnt being made for you and savage should be enough. Would you be for having checkpoints after each ultimate phase going forward to eliminate the need for sims?
Sims are as much cheating as watching any guide or having a raidplan open on the 2nd monitor/ printed out. You still have to correctly play and understand the mechanic by yourself.
Disagree. Guides do not engrain muscle memory, something that is key in this game especially ultimates. I hope they start adding checkpoints after each phase going forward so the people who use sims now get what they want.
@@ItsSVO Sims do not ingrain muscle memory as well due to it lacking audio/visual clues found within the game. They serve to give you an perspective on the mechanic without requiring to get there every time, which in turn leads to people (hopefully) understanding the roles quicker and prog faster. Which essentially is the same as watching an guide over and over again while understanding how the mechanic is supposed to be solved. Saying "you get muscle memory" literally shows that you never even used the sim.
@ yes they do, they teach reactions to visual markers. Many players play with music and little audio already. I’d audio cues were importany they’d not make 99% of cues visual 😂 I don’t use the sim because I enjoy actually playing the game as it was intended, yes. Your point is destroyed by the simple fact world prog groups go into turn 4 to practice mechanics without audio cues. Why do they do this? To build muscle memory for movement. If you want faster prog, become a better player and you’ll have no need for a simulator.
@@ItsSVO And thats luckily only your opinion without even having experience on it. World prog parties use a ton of shit you don't even know to make it easier, like automated callouts. Taking WF groups as any example against simulators is a pretty dumb thing to do. Arguing that sims (and by extension guides) are cheating is incredible dumb.
@ I’ve used simulator before, just not on video games but they all work the same way. simulators ARE cheating though. They actively undermine the intention of the devs who designed the fights. Are they against TOS? No absolutely not, but they are hurting the game itself in its current form. I’m not sure why you brought world first groups into this, I certainly didn’t as they’re not relevant.
As an also almost 40 year old human, I don't have time to prog on content, if I'm going to do the challenging stuff, I don't want to waste my time or someone else's either. Soni watch guides, do the sim or whatever so I can get a clear in the few hours I have to myself between work and family. It's the same reason people get pissed in PF, we all have lives outside of this and just want to have fun and get the clear to make us happy. Tldr: the Sim and stuff save us time so we can have fun and get the clear.
@@ItsSVO Maybe you're gatekeeping? Just a thought. Definitely agree here because we can only spend about 9 hours per week max running content and if we hadn't used sims for TOP it would've taken more than the few months we needed for sure. If the entire group agrees to use it to cut prog time who are you to say we're not allowed to run it? And yes we did do this type of content before the sim existed. Much prefer being able to spend more time on our lives now that they exist. Very annoying to have people go "well no you're not allowed to run ultimates once your real life starts getting too busy, too bad!"
@ im not saying people can’t cheat to make the game easier, im simply saying that doing so does effect the integrity and spirit of the fight. What exactly is the issue with it taking few months? Thats normal for most average groups doing 9 hours a week. The issue here is, you WANT to clear it quicker so you use a program that makes the fight easier to enable you to do so via a method not intended by the designers of the fight, which is pretty much what cheating is on a subjective level. I’m not saying you’re no allowed to run ultimates though. I’m saying that if you don’t have the time for content that is notoriously longer to prog, you maybe shouldn’t do that content as not all content in a game is for everybody after all. Your argument isn’t really making much sense to me. Ultimate content isn’t designed to be killed quickly outside of the world race for the majority of groups. If your life starts getting/is too busy to dedicate 9 hours over 7 days to, you probably shouldn’t be in a static at all and that’s what most normal busy people do no? Your life is too busy to kill previous phases prior to get to thesole hard mechanic in fights yet you simultaneously have time to go practice a simulator outside of raid? I just think the real reason you use a sim is because it makes the fight easier, I don’t buy the “time” excuse with respect. I’d believe it more if you weren’t playing the game outside of ultimate but I’m pretty certain you actually do, proving you do have the time you just don’t want to. I just don’t understand people who use programs to make intentionally hard content easier because to me it defeats the purpose. Thats just my opinion though, Im aware cheating is very fun for many people which is why they do it but I’ve just never seen the appeal.
@@ItsSVO When did I say we have time to use the sim outside of raid? Our static is SOLELY comprised of people who have busy lives, that is the entire point of the static. We used the sim DURiNG raid time. My entire issue with your post was that you implied we shouldn't even be running the content in the first place.
@ again, your life isn’t that busy because you’ve all agreed to to 9 hours a week so that’s showing you do indeed have 9 hours a week to raid. The issue here clearly isn’t free time, it’s wanting to clear fast at any cost. Why sim during the raid night instead of playing the actual game and practicing the mechanic you’re on in game? Again, your reasoning isn’t really consistent with logic and I’m not at all convinced what you’re saying isn’t embellished. I raid with my ultimate static twice a week for 4 hours both nights and that’s until we kill the fight. If I couldn’t commit to those hours because I was too busy, I’d simply find a new static or put the content on hold until I had the time as an ultimate lasts for a whole expansion cycle of 2 years without degrading in difficulty. I wouldn’t use a simulator to skip ahead to practice mechanics because i like the integrity and spirit the devs intended, that’s just where you and I clearly differ mentality wise I guess.
What stopped me from raiding in XIV for the 8-9 years I've been playing was wasting time in PF, since I can't do statics. But because of a friend I actially went into it, and it wasn't that bad. I've always been of the opinion there should be a "Practice mode", like all fighting games have, so everyone could go in and train mechanics by themselves. I didn't know about thesee sims, but this is a gift from the heavens.
The only real issue with sims is people thinking if they can consistently do a mech in the sim they can do it in game and consider their prog point beyond that mech. Outside of that through they're great and I wish more people would use them. Hell there was a browser game for sunrise that wasn't even real time and just had you click your pos for each part of the mech but I did it a few times while waiting for pf to fill during prog and I've not fucked up sunrise since,
It's basically to me akin to using a study guide to study and prepare for a test or a certain subject that you know will be on a test. Or using flash cards really. I don't see a problem with it tbh.
It’s actually more comparable to studying for an exam using the exact questions that are going to come up. Would you consider that scenario cheating in an exam if some people taking the exam had access to the questions to study and some didnt?
@ no you couldn’t because neither of those things build muscle memory in real time. Watching a guide on anything is not the same as physically practicing said thing.
@@kman6004I guess it depends. I do think it's cheating versus what the devs intended the fight to be. There are no checkpoints. There are damage downs, body checks and dps checks. This all points to the fact that they want us to go through each phase to practice the next and they don't want us to limp through or be sloppy. Now, sims bypass a lot of that. Is it cheating in terms of service? Obviously not. Is it cheating with respect to the intent of the fight? I'd say yes. It's does more than most addons in terms of making prog easier because you actually get to practice the mechanic a hundred times in the time it would take you to practice it 5 times while normally playing. Does it matter? Ultimately no, it's a video game. But some of the people who sit on their high horses about cheating in video games then spend hours in a sim to make the fight easier, while complaining about pixel perfect or cactbot. Sims are way more advantageous than both of those combined.
It’s like taking a mock exam to prep for the real thing. The sim is fan made and doesn’t have anything to do with the game nor does it interact with the game in any capacity.
@@ItsSVO Youd be surprised. I've had some professors say it was a practice exam and when I went to take the actual exam, it was a 0.9:1 match. Most questions were exact copy pastes and others were heavily referenced with a word or 2 changed
Hilariously, now DSR has an even better sim than TOP that simulates literally the entirety of p5 and p6, plus the p7 exas perfectly. It's kind of insane. By the time I finally got to P6 in game, I had already executed it perfectly dozens of times in the sim
in a static environement i pref not using it as i feel being able to learn quickly and manage stress late in the fight are qualities requiered from a player in ultimates. i do not judge ppl using it, i just feel my experience is lessen if i do
I had an argument with a bitching healer in one of my statics a few tiers back, where she wouldnt come to practice in a sim because it was against the rule, she prefered to wipe the party for hours on simple mech she couldnt figure on her own. When i took Xeems UwU voice and told her that discord wuz a thurd partu tool as wul uwu" she blocked me and left the static lmao. We cleared the tier the next night
@@xenrusxenomorph2268 That's not stupidity, it's incompatibility. That healer will be happier in a static that's cool with wiping repeatedly and learning as a group, and their former static will be happier having everyone in the static on the same page. Otherwise it's like saying it's stupid doing normal sunrise instead of uptime sunrise in P4S: whichever one allows everyone to live through the mechanic and continue the fight is the way to go for the group, it doesn't make the other method wrong though.
@@drayman101 I was loaded with that and yes it is incompatibility. Communication is the key here and depending on what happened, communication might not have been high.
Sims aren't any different from the practice mode in Guitar Hero. Some of the songs are upwards of 10 minutes long and it was nice having a feature built into the game that allowed you to practice sections of the song, specifically the solos If anything, I think the duty recorder should be revamped to put a ghost of your player inside the playback so you can replay sections of a fight in the game itself You would still need to get through a section of the fight once so it could be recorded, but imo that's a fair tradeoff that would make everyone happy
Working full time 5 days out of the week with a commute I dont get a ton of free time, so when I raid I want it to be productive and make progress. SIMs are pretty amazing for this. Unless the skill level for the group is very high and people are diligently studying its just going to be a better use of raid hours to sim every single time (and even then, why would you not unless its the early weeks where these tools don't exist?) Respect your time, respect other's time. How you value yours isn't gonna be the same as other's value theirs.
Sims are honestly really great to have. I raid on console (w/ keyboard and mouse) because my current pc isn’t strong enough to properly run 14 and in dire need to be upgraded but I can still run the sims on it and practice mechs in my free time to save time but also learn and bring the knowledge into the fights. Whether in pf or in static
I used the sim for TOP and it didn't interact with the game, so I didn't see much problem with it. Dont really use most 3rd parties, but honestly. As long as the prog experience was fun and you aren't outright using the most egregious shit known to man. Do whatever you want. Just dont waste my time. If you need the assistance to not be ass go for it man. 👍
people also seem very selective on what is and isnt cheating with zero consistency, if means of practice like this, or external planning is cheating, then so too are sacc strats intended to manipulate, or skip mechanics
I mean, I don't like sac strats from an integrity point of view. I don't care if others do them, I just don't want to do it myself. Same for sims. People are on their high horses about pixel perfect and cactbot, but those two combined are less useful in making prog easier than half an hour in the sim. Only difference is they interact with the game so are against ToS. Sims are not against ToS. But they do to against the very design of the ultimate itself. It's okay to clear with a sim, it's just a video game after all. But don't go shouting about plugins. Arguably only Splatoon and the likes are "worse" than the sim.
People are coping if they think this is cheating. The people who think this is cheating are people who have never done savage or an ultimate. I've only cleared UwU twice and my first clear, myself and my static used one for Ultima's Predation mechanic and it helped us immensely with learning it.
Penta legend here. Used sim for some and didn't use it for others. I believe sims are cheating. The only hard part of an ultimate is the learning process and sims trivialize most of it. Now, if one does not enjoy the only hard part of the ultimate and doesn't enjoy the prog experience and just wants to clear, it's fine to sim. But don't complain about SE making easy fights are people using addons to make the fight easier when that is exactly the same as you're doing but through different means. And yes, cactbot and pixel perfect have less influence on making the prog experience faster than slimming.
I always said there needs to be a simulation for mechs in game. It’ll help players like me on console, I don’t play on pc but that’s another story. I raid savagely and extreme trials. I never played an ultimate, but I can only imagine the pain to clear through pf. Anybody that raids through pf knows the pain, joining parties that lies about prog point, clear parties dying on 3rd to last mech, and the WAIT times to get a fight started. I don’t see sim as cheating for any type of play.
Reading through the TOS, it doesn't look like XIVSIMs is against TOS in terms of cheating, since the cheating section says the software is meant to 'modify the game and gameplay'. Now, there's another section about creating derivative works, which XIVSIMs could fall under. Though, it does say "Of the Game". how closely does it have to resemble the game before it's considered derivative? No idea.
So can we get this for the actual game? I forget mechanics all the time and I would LOVE a way to be able to practice them before I hop back into a fight.
FFXIV And its player base, are Akin to a bucket of crabs. A vast majority of people complaining about what is cheating and what is not can’t even successfully do duty finder roulettes without dying. But they will without hesitation, tell you what is allowed and not allowed? Yeah right. 😂
I do find the idea of having a chance to practice while waiting amazing! The only annoyance is that I am a console gamer and don't own a pc to run the sim so video guides and stuff like that is all I have. I do hope I never get kicked because I can't practice on the sim tho
What a crazy take. Every game needs extreme content that disrespects your time for its hardcore players. So yes it's okay for some things to take way longer to do than others. If you don't have the time to do it, then do don't it, it wasn't made for you in the first place. Instead of accepting that you want outside tools to make the very thing that's supposed to be hard more accessible for a broader audience. For 99% of things that would be fine but when the content is designed for that 1% it's not.
@@korymulcahey760 The only difference is time, getting to a mechanic 15mins into a fight to wipe instantly, and do it again and again. To reduce time, you just sim it and reduces the chance of fuck ups. I can do the content just fine, but I’d rather just practice the mechanic. Sorry I value time over the “honor” of clearing in a game. All you weirdos worried about the prestige of wasting hours and hours in a game lol. Even with a sim, it’s not like it doesn’t still take hours and hours anyway.
@@Axemninja Ultimate was designed to spend a lot of time. They purposely made it so that you have to go through the first few phases every single pull just to practice a later phase. So why are you doing it if that's not your cup of tea? If simming didn't help, nobody would use them and we would never have this conversation? Of course it helps, it helps tremendously which is the problem.
Not ultimate related, but I was struggeling a lot with P7S eggs back in the day, with Abyssos being my first raid tier. Gladly, there was a sim so I could just practice different setups on my own, in an isolated environment, instead of having to wipe my way there. Really helpful.
Sims are great and I find it wild that people would be against them. If sims are "cheating" then I ask where the difficulty of the game is anymore. Is it memorizing a touhou? Is it learning the touhou? It sure as fuck isn't playing the damn classes or the actual combat with the boss, and hasn't been since Gordias or Midas...
This is probably going to be in the game at some point. I remember they were teasing it before hand with "battle tactics" that you can make and send to people in game. Putting self made guides in the game is an overall good thing. It helps statics prog without needing to find a third party tool and become less reliant on people making guides when they can use their eyes and find their own strategy.
The only advantage to not using the sim is the self-satisfaction of feeling like you conquered a difficult mechanic from seeing it 50 times (if not more). Problem is, you're wasting 7 (more if you're in multiple parties) other peoples' time to accomplish a selfish whim.
Reducing mistakes and the drama that comes with it to maximize fun should be a priority, and sims allow for this so I'm definitely all for them. Ideally these simulations would be available in the game so you can practice them on your own time, maybe gating it to certain parts of progression after the first week of the fight being out, but that would probably be too much effort for very little payoff for Squeenix
I think sims are perfectly fine for the game personally. To me it's just one step above say watching a video guide or using a toolbox to tell you a strategy, with all three of those things being outside of the game and could be considered cheating by some. It isn't like anyone is forcing you to use a sim, and if you want to get practice on a mechanic that you get super stuck on or have a rough time understanding it could be way more beneficial in the long run for someone to be able to practice said mech on their own so they don't end up trapping parties.
Would you endorse SE putting in checkpoints after each phase going forward? It would eliminate the need for sims and also respect peoples time more, since that is why they’re saying they’re using sims.
@@ItsSVO Would cause active prog issues in the long run unless the ultimates are piss easy, checkpoints every phase means you realistically see a phase once and then never again for the rest of the 2 hour block. Only potential solution would be limiting the instance timer to an hour or less which would suck ass.
@ so you’re against simulators then? They’re essentially offering the same function as a checkpoint. Using a simulator is already making ultimates piss easy, so do you care about difficult or not? I’m not tracking the logic here. If you need to use simulators to beat ultimates, all power to you. But you cannot use simulators and also say you want ultimates to be difficult, that’s hypocrisy. I’m against simulators because I’m also for ultimates being difficult. If I wanted ultimates to be easier, I’d use a simulator. It’s that simple.
@@ItsSVO There's a world of difference between "a checkpoint after every single phase" and "a tool to practice one mech 15 minutes into a fight" and one of those is something world having even if *you* don't want to use it. Nobody is forcing you to, you can join a PF and call it a day, but you don't get to bitch and moan later that you wasted hours getting 3 seconds into a mech because some lobotomite ate paste and couldn't be fucked to pretend to pay attention.
i have no issue with anyone else using them, but i personally dont like using them, i like taking time to get back to my prog point so that i can get better at the prog point and tryt o be more consistent, though i have never progged or cleared an ultimate so my opinion might change once i start doing them
I think sim helped a lot on top, but somehow I don't like it on FRU ( CT / Exas in P5 ) ( obviously very personal ) but I feel like there's some important details that you wouldn't notice in the sim but only while practicing the mechanic, now for sure it saves quite a lot of time in general
I remember trying to SIM Party Synergy with my group when we were progging TOP. it sucked lmao. I understand the benefits sims can provide but for me personally, I hate them from a "this feels nothing like the actual game and is not benefitting me at all I'd rather be studying a visual guide" standpoint. Maybe I was just using the wrong ones but XIVSim was the main one we used and it just felt terrible to play on, we would spend 30 minutes of prog time in it, then go into the fight and still have people not be able to do the mech despite executing it in the sim. so, personally, idc if people use them or find benefit in them but imo, they seem kind of like a trap that gives players false confidence about mechanics
The one potential downside to sims is that there can be quirks that are different from the game that can get you used to specific things that will kill you in game. As long as you don't oversim though, even that is a very minor issue.
Xeno said it himself, it's a waste of everyone's 12 mins just to get to crystalize time and wipe in 5 seconds. So why are you doing ultimates? Everyone knows that's how ultimates are and you chose to do them knowing a core part of its challenge and design is starting from the beginning after every wipe. If sims didn't exist that's the only way you'd be able to practice later mechanics, is by getting through the earlier phases. Artificial difficulty? That's completely subjective and can be applied to anything you don't like. Aoes doubling up when someone dies, untelegraphed aoes, having 1s less to solve a mechanic, are technically all artificial difficulty, the same way you can't practice a later phase without going through the first 12 minutes of the fight. Simming isn't cheating though and anyone that thinks so is just dumb, but that's not the point. It's another tool that makes the content easier. These fights are supposed to be difficult and whether you agree with the challenge of grinding 12 minutes of a tedious fight just to practice 5s of a new mechanic, it's the entire point of the content and if you don't like it then why are you doing it? Simming like every other tool that are and aren't cheats, are lame. It's fine if you want to use these tools but it's annoying when you don't want to acknowledge how it dilutes the content.
Bingo, couldn’t agree more. Part of an ultimates difficult and design is having to earn practice at your prog point. If you haven’t got the time or patience for that then the content simply isn’t for you.
Even if they're _not_ against TOS, they're using the in-game models (and presumably reusing whatever code runs mechanics instead of recreating them from scratch). Now, I'm no IP lawyer but I'm pretty sure that's straight up illegal. As much as I enjoy these sorts of practice tools, I wouldn't like to get used to learning through tools that could very easily be taken away at SE's whim. I'm not gonna tempt fate.
I don't get what is difficult about what is and isn't cheating. Does it modify the game, in real time, to do things that are otherwise not possible to do with the game using native behaviour, eg showing the AoE circles for mechs that have them disabled, or macros that are capable of things the built in macros cannot do? Then it's a cheat. Are you using native behaviour to do things that were clearly unintended, eg performing actions which let you bypass invisible barriers or duplicating items? That's exploitation, which is a form of cheating. Not all ToS violations are cheating, but cheating is a ToS violation. When it comes to the ToS, it is strictly focused on things which upset the balance of the game. This includes automated or absentee play. It also lists what constitutes a ToS violating use of data. Anything that modifies, analyses, integrates or reverse engineers game data is ToS breaking. What constitutes game data is not defined (i.e it doesn't explicitly say if generated game logs are considered game data or not). So, if the online simulator replicates the game and encounters to its best ability from observations, it's probably ok. If it actually uses files from the game, then it would probably breach ToS. In either case, it's not cheating as it doesn't impact the game balance in real time anymore than simply practicing the encounter over and over. You still have to access the content and play it to win.
I never thought I'd see the day people would fucking complain about the sim of all fucking things LMFAO. I LOVE simming. The Sim cuts down on prog, but how exactly is it cheating? Its not like using cactbot or triggernometry where it interacts with the game. The sim is amazing, but it doesn't have those tiny nuances that you'll find in game. Its an incredibly helpful tool and cut down my FRU prog exponentially. What would have taken my group at least a few weeks, only took us a few days
Saying simming is bad for the game is like saying F1 teams using simulators for their drivers to test stuff is bad for the sport. It doesn't constitute cheating or doping in any way, shape, or form. Calling out simming is just tantamount to gatekeeping, and a poor one at that.
The people who are against this are just gatekeepers. I'm sick of this attitude of "I didn't need XYZ so you shouldn't either". People have all kinds of differences in how they best learn things, so I think it's moronic to assume that if everyone just watched the same video that you did everything should be fine. Practice runs are arguably the best way to learn any raid, but it can be really frustrating when you wipe over and over again because you don't know where to stand, or, more importantly, how to figure out where to stand. On top of that, if you don't learn a raid within the first month or so, it's nearly impossible to put a practice group together. Sims seem like the ideal solution to me because they allow you to practice specific mechanics for as long as you need to, without inconveniencing 7 other people.
As long as you are using the argument about time, the conclusion will always be the same: The game should be easier, as this means you will need to spend less time on it. "Cheating" will make sense and even more mods will be used, as with each mod that helps you, you win even more time. At the end of the day, in order to win against time, you will try your hardest to do all these things, only to realise that you cannot win against it and you would have been better off enjoying yourself instead. I am not saying that sim or anything else is right or wrong, I am just saying that with this argument, eventually everything becomes viable, given time (pun intended)
People put way too much emphasis on the sim. Like it's a make or break for practice. It's a nice tool to have, to understand how mechanics resolve and positions to be in but it will never be a full substitute for actually being present in the game. People act like it's cheating because it's a 1 to 1 transfer, it's not lmao.
My definition of cheating is pretty simple: It's cheating if it's some tool or software that interacts with the game to make the fight easier, either by solving mechanics or playing the game for you or showing you stuff you are not supposed to see. So stuff like splatoon, automarkers etc. Simulators are not connected to the game in any way so I don't think it's cheating.
Combat sim is an incredible tool! Normal people who have jobs and even some sort of life need this tool. Anyone complaining and especially taking the time to condemn others, do not have a life of their own, and shouldn't be taken seriously.
Sims take a LOT of time and effort to create, so people don't tend to make them for savage content since it will become irrelevant so quickly. Savage is temporary, Ultimate is forever. It's sad, but it is just how it is.
@@kman6004 I kind of assumed it was because people have claimed this tier is very easy (which it could be or not this is my very first savage tier), it would have just been definitely helpful to be able to resolve mechanics without the stress of killing friends. There is a little flash-game like tool that's helped a lot though.
@@xJadeWolfxx This tier is a lot easier than most of the EW fights, but that mainly comes down to how forgiving they are dps and bodycheck wise. For m4s the only mechs that would be worth having in the sim are witchhunt (since it's arguably the only "hard" mech in phase 1) and a few of the sabbaths that can be somewhat confusing at first glance. Do agree that it'd be nice to have at least those though.
I thought the point of progging was to learn the fight on your own. I wont go as far as to say its cheating since it actually doesnt teach you mechanics. I do feel like its less rewarding though.
If this is cheating using pokemon showdown to train and try teams is cheating, both are just sims so you can practise without needing too much time as an adult. if people have the time to practise in a sim but not being able to do a long time prog due to adulhood... wheres the harm?
is it cheating to speed up the process by targeting specific phases to be able to practice them? thats the only question you have to ask you can easily argue that getting to a phase to even be able to practice it in the first place is part of the difficulty, so i would say it is
@@maybayV2 guides arent a gameplay practicing tool, its really simple to not conflate those things if they were, sims wouldnt be needed and you would just watch a guide 100 times to practice a fight
@hallo-mt5tx But I'm able to get to that phase and practice it in my mind by seeing it visualized in a guide Ah, I see, that must mean going over the mechanics in my mind is cheating. Thank you for clearing up your statement.
Fix the glamour dresser, glamour system, and title system, then I will care about the effort to clear ultimate in vanilla manner. Otherwise, don't care if people use Simulator, or ACT, or anything beyond those.
Game and community have been going downhill since endwalker finale. I wonder if the endwalker/dawntrail split is going to be seen the same as ffxi pre/after lvl 75 cap era
Yes but the actual pilot comparing people wanting to have fun in a video game by raiding in game, to someone willing to risk endangering their own or others actual real lives by flying without a flight sim is a little ridiculous.
that makes no sense if you think about it for a minute making a task easier when the entire point of it is to be the ultimate challenge is cheating in a way that doesnt apply to flying a plane at all, there are completely different priorities like safety
I think the sim is harmless. It's not a 1:1 of the game, but it gets you over the hurdle of seeing the whole picture and getting the feel of how to do the mechanic.
@ItsSVO If it's created with data mining, then I agree with you, but it looks like it's just made with data caught while playing normally. While you could make the argument that a plug-in being used to catch the data might be going too far, the sim itself is available to everyone and an extremely helpful tool to learn the fight. It's no more game breaking than being able to check the market board and see a whole bunch of hidden stats on Universalis outside of the game. If anything, it's more or less an interactive guide video.
@ it’s not like those things at all though. It’s not about whether the sim is available for all, it’s about the fact it provides you access to practice something without having the need to kill prior phases first which is not the intention of the devs, who see ultimates difficulty in having to continuously pass the gauntlet. It’s why many of the more mechanically heavy savage turn 4’s that are two bosses have checkpoints. Because if they didn’t they’d be ultimate difficulty encounters. If you take away having to run the gauntlet to practice mechanics then you’re essentially reducing ultimates to savage and that then defeats the entire purpose of the encounter, which was made to be more difficult than savage. Theres a reason the last phases of an ultimate are generally easy mechanics repeated over and over as a victory lap.
Sims are as much cheating as looking up strats or watching a guide video are, that is to say not at all. It'd be like saying any practice an athlete does before an official match is cheating.
This is a false equivalence logical fallacy. Guides do not ingrain muscle memory, a simulator does. The whole difficult of XIV is based on muscle memory and repetition. You cannot compare an athletes.
Have people forgotten the definition of cheating? Is it cheating to practice before a game? Is studying before a test cheating? Sims dont impact the fight in game.
So can I go into the game right now and practice wormhole on my own, choosing each limit cut number repeatedly without beating phase 1 or 2? if I cannot do that then then you’re incorrect.
@@ItsSVO You also cannot go into the game and see Phase 3 mechanics if you're still progging Diamond Dust. Under your definition, watching a clear VOD would also constitute cheating. Pure nonsense.
I understand both sides. Part of the intended difficulty of the Ultimates is the fact that it's a gauntlet that resets everytime you wipe. An ultimate would be much less difficult if there was a checkpoint after each boss, for example. That being said, I think that's a lame way of making something difficult, and so a sim helps take out the BS and focus on the other portion of the difficulty which is herding your goofy ahh teammates into getting in the right position. I think it's cheating for sure, but like Xeno said, I don't really care if you're cheating if you don't wipe me.
if the goal is to save time your doing it all wrong, you can literally pay for clears or just use cheats it actually saves MORE time than doing a sim and the more you pay people the more of them will pop up to do it for you duh
the goal is to cheat just enough they can still convince themselves they did something really challenging for their gamer ego thats literally all it is
Simulations require data-mined files, which is technically against TOS; you don't necessarily have to be for or against something to call it what it is. Have fun and stop caring what people think (I guess?).
yep, perfectly legit. as other comments have pointed out, just like discord, because this sim doesnt interact with the game at all, it's not against TOS. it's technically considered a "second party tool", the same as using paint or a raid planner for communicating strats
I think they need to add this kind of system to the game so people stop complaining about it. The only concern is that it raises the expectations of party members to possibly an unreasonable level, making people unfairly impatient with mistakes
It objectively is not cheating, and this is an idiotic debate. Sims don't drop you into a late phase of the actual fight; they are pretend simulations that allow you to study and practice mechanics. They are like interactive guides. If they're cheating, so is watching a VOD or a Hector video.
It seems quite clear that there is a difference between practicing and watching. How close to reality does a sim need to be to become cheating? I think they're more effective than cactbot and pixel perfect to making the fight easier. If people are okay with sims, they are okay with making the fight easier. That is alright, nothing wrong with that. But they should know that is what they're doing. Ultimates are not hard. The fights are really static. They're complex, but the only hard part about them is the learning process. So if one trivialized the learning process, there is nothing hard about them anymore.
@@Combo7-y2h who would you trust to fly your plane more, somebody who has hours in a realistic simulator with physical apparatus 1:1 with the aircraft or somebody who’s watched a video showing you what to do?
@@ItsSVO Two entirely different fields: One is you going about your life in a hobby, the other is you being responsible for HUMAN LIVES. An incredible logical fallacy.
@@hallowedgrave2360 Watching Kindred prog the fight makes the fight easier. Studying your opener on the Balance and asking questions on their Discord server makes the fight easier. Practicing mechanics in a sim makes the fight easier. I'd love to hear what makes some of these permissible and others not. I'm not sure why you're comparing anything to Cactbot and Pixel Perfect, as those are add-ons that interact with the game.
@@ItsSVO I would expect a pilot entrusted with the lives of other people to do everything in their power to be the best pilot they can be. I'm trying to understand the purpose of your comment. Is it to say that practicing in a sim is effective? Uh, yeah dude. Practicing something makes you better at it. We're in agreement there. Are you trying to say that because practice makes you better at something, it equates to cheating? Is that your take?
The sim is not even an 1-to-1 recreation of the game. I've used it in every static I've been in, and it feels very different than in game. The sim serves mainly for you to futher develop your muscle memory for the fight, which you would anyway if you did the fight a lot.
no but the whole point is to cut down on prog time especially for mechanics far in the fight Most of the time there's still some adjustment needed once you get in game but it makes it way faster/easier to comprehend what you actually need to look at or develop some shortcuts in your mind. Honestly the thing to keep in mind is just EXACT positioning might vary but just laying groundwork it's amazing I used the DSR sim because I couldn't comprehend p5 for some reason. I figured it out eventually by using it and it also made p6 crazy easy lol
@@marslarabut that whole process what you just described is why people think it's a cheat. I didn't use sims for dsr but did for p5 on top. It feels like a cheat to me. Like someone giving you all the answers to a test, just need to remember them. I feel that the hardest part of the ultimate is the learning process. But also the consistency and marathon like check to actually learn. The whole design of them points to it: no check points, body checks, dps checks, brutal damage downs. Everything points to the designers wanting you to get consistent, and get the endurance in to prog. Now, if you want to make it easier on yourself. That is fine. It's alright to just want to clear and don't really enjoy hard endurance fights. Since fights are really static, the only hard part is the initial hurdle.
@hallowedgrave2360 I do think it's a cheat lol but I would call ACT a cheat too. I don't think they auto clear the fight for you and imo they eliminate arbitrary factors and certainly don't make me feel greasy clearing so meh I think if I was in a static though I probably wouldn't have used it... unless my team wanted to I guess. Just PF is truly a terrible place to prog, and parties could hardly see p5 half the time. So for me it's a necessary evil just like AM 🤷🏾♀️ but for the ones who get upset about sims I have no reason to care nor do I care about the other people using "worse" cheats as long as had I fun and feel accomplish I'm good personally. DSR is definitely my favourite ult and I cried when I cleared lol so no regrets here
I would definitely kick someone if they joined my pf and did something like automarkers or spoiling mechanics because I do everything blind. And I say that in the pf description, so sims would be a problem. I like the process of figuring things out as a party, regardless of how old I get or how long it takes.
sim kind of defeats the purpose of playing the game. you just did it in the sim, why bother doing it in the game afterwards? you robbed yourself it's not like its a race competition where you're studying to compete against other people. it's not pvp for cash prizes.it's a fucking video game. you're already wasting your time. if there was something greater on the line I could understand wanting to use it. but i don't like the idea. That said, if you want to sim go for, but i'd suggest you just git gud instead. mmo raids are not hard at all, they just require you to pay attention with some minimum level of gear check
You still have to clear the mechanic and the fight in the game, how is practicing it in the sim robbing you of anything? Would you imply the same when watching guides about fights and/or certain mechanics to get a grasp on how to solve it?
@@DarkKerialstraz Why play the game at all when you can just sim it? You play the game because there is greater risk /reward. The risk / reward isn't that great to begin with, it doesn't translate anything into real life, it's just a game. You diminish it that much more when you sim and you're watching videos of someone telling you how to play the game before you play it. You're just doing copy cat. I would absolutely 100% agree that watching a boss fight before you encounter it is robbing yourself of the experience the devs set out for you. Why have someone tell you how the puzzle is solved without giving yourself the chance to solve the puzzle yourself? This entirely defeats the purpose of a puzzle. Part of the fun of puzzle solving is solving it yourself, not having others solve it for you and then just doing what they do. Also, part of what makes a game fun is the skill of a game, is learning how to adapt, and change with what is coming at you. Learning what to do and look at for in real time is part of the game. I think that is what helps makes games interesting. No MMO mechanic is so complex that you can't react to it on the fly. You're also ruining the immersion aspect, the first time of seeing a big bad scary looking boss and encountering all of their moves for the first time. Everything about it, imo, is ruined when you've watched the raid already. And really, I don't care that much to begin with if YOU'RE using a sim. You're only robbing yourself, you're not robbing me in that situation. However I don't like the idea that it should be normalized, or even promoted in this instance. There is something extremely toxic in MMOS when your first encounter is supposed to be, "watch a video and know the fight now, don't waste my time." and the new raid boss just came out. fuck those people.
@@TonyGosu There are literally "blind prog" statics or parties that are your ideal type for that. A lot of others use external ressources to find optimal rotations, gauge DPS and communicate with each other - all tools being "accepted" as part of the experience even though it robs you of simply "playing the game". Besides that what is considered "fun" is incredibly subjective. I have fun beating bosses in Dark Souls-type games, learning patterns while others have fun "breaking" boss AI or the game through cheesy methods. Puzzles are only fun when being solved the first time you do them. Once you've done that, regardless of methodology, you have to clear the mechanic over and over again. You can't decide how others should enjoy the game, because you have a specific type of "fun" attached to it. Some love solving the puzzle, others want to better themselves and play the fights while optimizing, while others stand in Limsa Lominsa and RP.
Not cheating but don't force it on other people, I saw PF that said "Use sim for so and so mechs don't waste our time" which I think is garbage no matter how hard the mech is let people play the actual game to practice if they want. It should be in-game just like a striking dummy to make it fair is all.
If you dont have the same philosophy as the rest of a party dont join that party "Dont force it on other people" is also forcing your view on them You are telling them to waste their time with someone who will likely cause more wipes due to not having experience
@@V2ULTRAKillhit with that reverse uno lol Hey while we are at it... people say dont use sims. Fuck. Dont use guides either lol. Just go in there and bang your head blindly. Make your own party for it.
@petree exactly If you don't have a static with a mutual blind only philosophy (they're easy to find) don't pitch when PF groups want you to have a guide or sim a mechanic
True, but it’s cheating the developers of the fight and ruining the integrity and makes the “ultimate” aspect pointless. Would you be behind the team if they started adding checkpoints after each phase going forward? Surely you would, as that’s the same thing as using a sim essentially.
@@TS-uc4hi yes. So, would you not agree that having checkpoints going forward would make everyone using simulators happy or not? I think SE should start putting them in so the people who can’t do the fight without simulators wouldn’t have the need for them. It’s not about TOS, it’s about simulators shitting all over the integrity of the fight. Using these programs isn’t good for the game, whether they’re against TOS or not.
FFXIV raid sims are the whiteboards of the new age. If John Madden had little animated football dudes to go along with his markers it would've been great. This is the nerd version. It's separate from the game and just streamlined so someone who has the knowledge doesn't have to constantly re-draw shit on microsoft paint.
How is drawing something on a white board at all similar to a simulator? Simulation have you performing physically building muscle memory. White boards are purely visual.
@ItsSVO the connection is that the whiteboard is the predecessor to the simulators and we use them to illustrate a situation with minimal consequence. Both Xenosys and I are old enough to remember times without simulators or internet. In the example I gave, the player was not the person I was arguing for. The person that has the relevant knowledge that wants to show someone else what to do is the one who CREATED the sim, not uses it. He is the one who would be "using" the whiteboard," to show--for example--someone how to fly a plane before you endanger a copilot instructor. All we did was use technology to improve that process by creating sims to provide a BETTER visualization. Throw in some user input that allows the user to build that muscle memory and it's even better. Do you think that is what makes it cheap and too far? What about athletes, who use training equipment to practice movements relevant to their sports before a game? Combine the two (drawing boards and training equipment) and you have a sim. TLDR: These sims are basically like having a sports coach, that knows what he's talking about, show you the mechanics of a sport. We used to use whiteboards for this. Now we have sims, which combine the visual aids with the physical ones.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
This isn't part of the game it can be run on the browser, it doesn't talk to the game, doesn't take game data. This can't be considered Cheating because it doesn't fall in to the ToS. If using a Sim is cheating then looking up a guide is cheating.
Yuuuuup
Is watching a video on how to fly a plane the same as hours spent building muscle memory in a physical flight simulator?
@@ItsSVO If you are in pilot training and you would say that you don't want to practice flying in flight simulators, they would think that you're an idiot.
@ yes, because simulators are the only way to actually practice flying physically without endangering human life. XIV provides a way to practice ultimate mechanics, by going into the fight itself and getting to said mechanic and practicing it. If you couldn’t safely practice XIV mechanics in game I’d say simulators are fine, but that isn’t the case.
@ItsSVO You are willingly wasting other peoples time tho. In FFXIV it's not about life endangering, the sim is to safe time. Not just your own but the time of the other 7 ppl who are raiding with you. Especially in PF.
Ive said it before and ill say it again. People who complain about this stuff dont raid or have never done ultimates through pf, and probably never will.
Edit: Yall are weird for trying to put ultimates on some kinda pedestal that is unclearable to 99% of the playerbase. Ultimates are not THAT difficult even without sims and add-ons. They are there to ultimately cut time on progging since not all of us can be degenerate losers lmao. Whether or not sims or add ons exist people WILL eventually clear them regardless and it is actual gremlin behavior to care about something like that.
Yup those same people have never experienced the anxiety of always fucking up one specific mechanic, so instead of wasting precious prog time you practice so you don’t hold your entire group back 😅
@davidbai3543 Right its like sims dont play the game for you neither do add-ons like "afflatus misery". They help you, but you still need to actually do the mechs correctly like its not a complete faceroll. Thats why i say people who complain about this stuff doesnt have any raid or pf experience.
@@blackmagekongs2588that's okay, whatever float your boat. There are people who are gonna justify cheats no matter what. These same people are the ones who think they are good 😂
This, just this. The people complaining will never do the content, they're just mad because they don't want to learn anything about ultimates and pretend that the people who do, are cheating/their achievement isn't that big because they used a sim, which is quite ironic coming from someone that will prob never clear the fight xD
Well you're wrong.
This stuff is unquestionably bad for the game. It creates an unfair contrast between people who use it and don't. It encourages people to be anal when someone messes up a mechanic ingame. It creates a bias feedback loop for the developers on how difficult the content should be.
On top of that we have things likr ACT that tells you where to go for mechanics and perfects your rotation which has the same issues.
If we didn't have these tools people would be more focused on building communities and helping each other to get better and explore harder content. The primary focus would be on enjoying prog and clearing content not parsing and speedrunning the clear so you can go do something else. The endgame raids are now dominated by gatekeepers that use all these tools to get ahead and get bitter and resentful over people who don't perform as well. Devs have had to make content so difficult it can barely be cleared in pf without third party. It's not good.
I cleared TEA in PF and used the sims while waiting for the parties to fill. I cleared on the 360th pull and it would have probably taken 3 times that without it.
Only used the wormhole sim. Took about 600 pulls for me in PF. Sounds about right-ish
The first time I got to phase 3 I made it all the way to wormhole and even did my part right. Would have taken way longer for me to get phase 3 without it.
I >mostly< agree with Xeno about the sims, however it is actually false to think of the sim as a be all end all solution. For instance, the sim teaches you HOW to resolve it, but it will be different in game. Both from the visual tells and minor mistakes/differences between the sim and in game. You also aren't focusing on additional things, such as dealing damage, healing, or mitigating. I believe there was also an article where Yoshi-P was asked about sims and was ok with it because it didn't interact with the game data, but did also give the usual warning of being careful since SE has no control over these sims and that players interacted with them at their own risk.
My bigger issue personally is the RELIANCE on addons and plugins, cause the second they're down then a lot of people can't do the mechanics. Hell, I've met people who can't even resolve Nael's lightning debuffs without AM, so there very much is for some people an overreliance on outside tools.
That is an unfortunate thing and says more about the person using the AM than the AM itself. I do think that needing the tools to prog is bad, but some people also do not and just will not spend the brainpower on remembering those mechanics.
Sad. The way to stop is to encourage newbies to learn mechanics and master their job but as long as the community remains divided in purist and doesn't have a healthy middle ground, then a lot more of the AM proggers pop up
i actually think the fact that these tools are used means ultimate should just have checkpoints cause this basically bypasses that , i am not sure what the point of no checkpoints is other than just wasting huge amounts of time
I mean most pf raiders use 7 other people to sim anyway so I feel like sim out of the game is fine 😅
True 😭 damn prog liars
im wheezing at this comment but its so true 😭
I'm a pilot in training, and if I told my flight school I don't want to practice IFR on a flight simulator, not only would they think I'm an idiot, they'd tell me I can't get my certification if I don't register my required simulator hours. Simulators are a must for a lot of learning, cutting time, and knowledge building.
Now, in a goddamn video game, which isn't even a competitive game but coop, why on Earth wouldn't I use a simulator to practice mechanics that are far into a boss fight and avoid wasting everyone's time by wiping over and over until I get it right?
Maybe because a major part of the difficulty is in getting back to your prog point to be able to practice it? Is a simulator cheating? Absolutely not, but it does cheat the integrity of the fight 100% I hope they just stop ultimate altogether because it’s clear the ones who claim to like it don’t actually want to do it at this point. I say this as somebody who does ultimates as well.
If they continue ultimates I at least want Yoshi P to start putting checkpoints after each phase going forward just to see the Hypocrisy when people start moan big that it makes the fight too easy, despite that being exactly what people who use sims are doing currently.
bro a pilot is responsible for the lives of everybody on the plane no shit you want those people to be qualified any means necessary. You don't care how they get good, you only care about them getting there
Ah yes XIV ultimate sims and flight sims. Very comparable with equal amounts of implications
@@ItsSVO "Maybe because a major part of the difficulty is in getting back to your prog point to be able to practice it"
I play with a static and may be in a bubble, so take this with a grain of salt: I fundamentally disagree with your central point on this. Getting back to the prog point is only a time issue, not a difficulty in itself, because if you're doing Ultimates you're not expected to be wiping a lot in mechanics you already know, you're supposed to be a consistent player (of course once in a while an early wipe may happen, but it's not supposed to be frequent). Wipes happen in, or close, to the prog point. Once the group sees the mechanic, we wanna get back there everytime.
And to add to that, in DSR, to me, the checkpoint makes the fight harder, since we see the door bosses a lot less and do that phase a lot less (once per lockout) than Thordan (in every pull), so in there, specifically, there may be more mistakes.
But hey, I'm kind of a weird player. What I find difficult, others may find easy. And what I find easy, others may have trouble with. I usually die exactly once to every mechanic, and then never make a mistake there again, but maybe to other statics consistency is more of an issue than it is in mine.
And at the end of the day it's a decision of the group. If your group wants to prog without sims, cool, go for it, you do you.
@ yes, it’s a time issue which is exactly what part of the difficulty of an ultimate is and has always been advertised as. I agree it’s a choice, but it objectively ruins the integrity of the fight and reduced the intended difficulty significantly. I personally just don’t understand why people insist on doing ultimates when the content clearly isn’t designed for them. If you need to use a sim for ultimates then the content isnt being made for you and savage should be enough.
Would you be for having checkpoints after each ultimate phase going forward to eliminate the need for sims?
Sims are as much cheating as watching any guide or having a raidplan open on the 2nd monitor/ printed out.
You still have to correctly play and understand the mechanic by yourself.
Disagree. Guides do not engrain muscle memory, something that is key in this game especially ultimates.
I hope they start adding checkpoints after each phase going forward so the people who use sims now get what they want.
@@ItsSVO Sims do not ingrain muscle memory as well due to it lacking audio/visual clues found within the game. They serve to give you an perspective on the mechanic without requiring to get there every time, which in turn leads to people (hopefully) understanding the roles quicker and prog faster.
Which essentially is the same as watching an guide over and over again while understanding how the mechanic is supposed to be solved. Saying "you get muscle memory" literally shows that you never even used the sim.
@ yes they do, they teach reactions to visual markers. Many players play with music and little audio already. I’d audio cues were importany they’d not make 99% of cues visual 😂
I don’t use the sim because I enjoy actually playing the game as it was intended, yes. Your point is destroyed by the simple fact world prog groups go into turn 4 to practice mechanics without audio cues. Why do they do this? To build muscle memory for movement.
If you want faster prog, become a better player and you’ll have no need for a simulator.
@@ItsSVO And thats luckily only your opinion without even having experience on it. World prog parties use a ton of shit you don't even know to make it easier, like automated callouts.
Taking WF groups as any example against simulators is a pretty dumb thing to do. Arguing that sims (and by extension guides) are cheating is incredible dumb.
@ I’ve used simulator before, just not on video games but they all work the same way. simulators ARE cheating though. They actively undermine the intention of the devs who designed the fights. Are they against TOS? No absolutely not, but they are hurting the game itself in its current form.
I’m not sure why you brought world first groups into this, I certainly didn’t as they’re not relevant.
This reminds me of wow's raid Sims, except everything is pineapple themed
These are a little more useful and accurate to the game but the pineapple games are great. I think the first one was Castle Pineapplia.
@Navi_xoo yeah these Sims look incredible, but the "everything is a pineapple" Sims just have a certain charm to them, lol
As an also almost 40 year old human, I don't have time to prog on content, if I'm going to do the challenging stuff, I don't want to waste my time or someone else's either. Soni watch guides, do the sim or whatever so I can get a clear in the few hours I have to myself between work and family. It's the same reason people get pissed in PF, we all have lives outside of this and just want to have fun and get the clear to make us happy.
Tldr: the Sim and stuff save us time so we can have fun and get the clear.
Then maybe the content isn’t for you? Just a thought.
@@ItsSVO Maybe you're gatekeeping? Just a thought. Definitely agree here because we can only spend about 9 hours per week max running content and if we hadn't used sims for TOP it would've taken more than the few months we needed for sure. If the entire group agrees to use it to cut prog time who are you to say we're not allowed to run it? And yes we did do this type of content before the sim existed. Much prefer being able to spend more time on our lives now that they exist. Very annoying to have people go "well no you're not allowed to run ultimates once your real life starts getting too busy, too bad!"
@ im not saying people can’t cheat to make the game easier, im simply saying that doing so does effect the integrity and spirit of the fight.
What exactly is the issue with it taking few months? Thats normal for most average groups doing 9 hours a week. The issue here is, you WANT to clear it quicker so you use a program that makes the fight easier to enable you to do so via a method not intended by the designers of the fight, which is pretty much what cheating is on a subjective level.
I’m not saying you’re no allowed to run ultimates though. I’m saying that if you don’t have the time for content that is notoriously longer to prog, you maybe shouldn’t do that content as not all content in a game is for everybody after all. Your argument isn’t really making much sense to me. Ultimate content isn’t designed to be killed quickly outside of the world race for the majority of groups. If your life starts getting/is too busy to dedicate 9 hours over 7 days to, you probably shouldn’t be in a static at all and that’s what most normal busy people do no?
Your life is too busy to kill previous phases prior to get to thesole hard mechanic in fights yet you simultaneously have time to go practice a simulator outside of raid? I just think the real reason you use a sim is because it makes the fight easier, I don’t buy the “time” excuse with respect. I’d believe it more if you weren’t playing the game outside of ultimate but I’m pretty certain you actually do, proving you do have the time you just don’t want to.
I just don’t understand people who use programs to make intentionally hard content easier because to me it defeats the purpose. Thats just my opinion though, Im aware cheating is very fun for many people which is why they do it but I’ve just never seen the appeal.
@@ItsSVO When did I say we have time to use the sim outside of raid? Our static is SOLELY comprised of people who have busy lives, that is the entire point of the static. We used the sim DURiNG raid time. My entire issue with your post was that you implied we shouldn't even be running the content in the first place.
@ again, your life isn’t that busy because you’ve all agreed to to 9 hours a week so that’s showing you do indeed have 9 hours a week to raid. The issue here clearly isn’t free time, it’s wanting to clear fast at any cost. Why sim during the raid night instead of playing the actual game and practicing the mechanic you’re on in game? Again, your reasoning isn’t really consistent with logic and I’m not at all convinced what you’re saying isn’t embellished.
I raid with my ultimate static twice a week for 4 hours both nights and that’s until we kill the fight. If I couldn’t commit to those hours because I was too busy, I’d simply find a new static or put the content on hold until I had the time as an ultimate lasts for a whole expansion cycle of 2 years without degrading in difficulty. I wouldn’t use a simulator to skip ahead to practice mechanics because i like the integrity and spirit the devs intended, that’s just where you and I clearly differ mentality wise I guess.
What stopped me from raiding in XIV for the 8-9 years I've been playing was wasting time in PF, since I can't do statics. But because of a friend I actially went into it, and it wasn't that bad. I've always been of the opinion there should be a "Practice mode", like all fighting games have, so everyone could go in and train mechanics by themselves.
I didn't know about thesee sims, but this is a gift from the heavens.
The only real issue with sims is people thinking if they can consistently do a mech in the sim they can do it in game and consider their prog point beyond that mech. Outside of that through they're great and I wish more people would use them. Hell there was a browser game for sunrise that wasn't even real time and just had you click your pos for each part of the mech but I did it a few times while waiting for pf to fill during prog and I've not fucked up sunrise since,
It's basically to me akin to using a study guide to study and prepare for a test or a certain subject that you know will be on a test. Or using flash cards really. I don't see a problem with it tbh.
It’s actually more comparable to studying for an exam using the exact questions that are going to come up.
Would you consider that scenario cheating in an exam if some people taking the exam had access to the questions to study and some didnt?
@@ItsSVO I mean, you could use your exact same argument to say that watching a clear video of the fight is cheating. Or even just reading a guide.
@ no you couldn’t because neither of those things build muscle memory in real time. Watching a guide on anything is not the same as physically practicing said thing.
@@kman6004I guess it depends. I do think it's cheating versus what the devs intended the fight to be.
There are no checkpoints. There are damage downs, body checks and dps checks. This all points to the fact that they want us to go through each phase to practice the next and they don't want us to limp through or be sloppy.
Now, sims bypass a lot of that. Is it cheating in terms of service? Obviously not. Is it cheating with respect to the intent of the fight? I'd say yes. It's does more than most addons in terms of making prog easier because you actually get to practice the mechanic a hundred times in the time it would take you to practice it 5 times while normally playing.
Does it matter? Ultimately no, it's a video game. But some of the people who sit on their high horses about cheating in video games then spend hours in a sim to make the fight easier, while complaining about pixel perfect or cactbot. Sims are way more advantageous than both of those combined.
@@hallowedgrave2360 yeah kinda funny these sims make all the other cheats irrelevant
It’s like taking a mock exam to prep for the real thing. The sim is fan made and doesn’t have anything to do with the game nor does it interact with the game in any capacity.
If people had the exact questions that were appearing in the exam to practice with yes, the comparison you made would be equal.
@@ItsSVO Youd be surprised. I've had some professors say it was a practice exam and when I went to take the actual exam, it was a 0.9:1 match. Most questions were exact copy pastes and others were heavily referenced with a word or 2 changed
@@MatthewBlake-p9ksounds like a terrible professor
I cleared TOP faster than DSR due to sims being fully operational solo for P5 and 6. That;s how powerful they can get to be.
Hilariously, now DSR has an even better sim than TOP that simulates literally the entirety of p5 and p6, plus the p7 exas perfectly. It's kind of insane. By the time I finally got to P6 in game, I had already executed it perfectly dozens of times in the sim
in a static environement i pref not using it as i feel being able to learn quickly and manage stress late in the fight are qualities requiered from a player in ultimates. i do not judge ppl using it, i just feel my experience is lessen if i do
I had an argument with a bitching healer in one of my statics a few tiers back, where she wouldnt come to practice in a sim because it was against the rule, she prefered to wipe the party for hours on simple mech she couldnt figure on her own. When i took Xeems UwU voice and told her that discord wuz a thurd partu tool as wul uwu" she blocked me and left the static lmao. We cleared the tier the next night
That's not the sim nor the tiers fault that is the healer refusing to learn and you can't reach or reach stupid that doesn't want to learn
@@xenrusxenomorph2268 That's not stupidity, it's incompatibility. That healer will be happier in a static that's cool with wiping repeatedly and learning as a group, and their former static will be happier having everyone in the static on the same page. Otherwise it's like saying it's stupid doing normal sunrise instead of uptime sunrise in P4S: whichever one allows everyone to live through the mechanic and continue the fight is the way to go for the group, it doesn't make the other method wrong though.
@@drayman101 I was loaded with that and yes it is incompatibility. Communication is the key here and depending on what happened, communication might not have been high.
Imagine needing a sim for a fucking savage tier lmaooooooo
@@HayLinLa Imagine needing to be a toxic elitist.
Sims aren't any different from the practice mode in Guitar Hero. Some of the songs are upwards of 10 minutes long and it was nice having a feature built into the game that allowed you to practice sections of the song, specifically the solos
If anything, I think the duty recorder should be revamped to put a ghost of your player inside the playback so you can replay sections of a fight in the game itself
You would still need to get through a section of the fight once so it could be recorded, but imo that's a fair tradeoff that would make everyone happy
Working full time 5 days out of the week with a commute I dont get a ton of free time, so when I raid I want it to be productive and make progress. SIMs are pretty amazing for this. Unless the skill level for the group is very high and people are diligently studying its just going to be a better use of raid hours to sim every single time (and even then, why would you not unless its the early weeks where these tools don't exist?) Respect your time, respect other's time. How you value yours isn't gonna be the same as other's value theirs.
Get your ass back into the Sim, Shinji.
Lmao
Sims are honestly really great to have.
I raid on console (w/ keyboard and mouse) because my current pc isn’t strong enough to properly run 14 and in dire need to be upgraded but I can still run the sims on it and practice mechs in my free time to save time but also learn and bring the knowledge into the fights. Whether in pf or in static
I used the sim for TOP and it didn't interact with the game, so I didn't see much problem with it. Dont really use most 3rd parties, but honestly. As long as the prog experience was fun and you aren't outright using the most egregious shit known to man. Do whatever you want. Just dont waste my time. If you need the assistance to not be ass go for it man. 👍
people also seem very selective on what is and isnt cheating with zero consistency, if means of practice like this, or external planning is cheating, then so too are sacc strats intended to manipulate, or skip mechanics
Shoutout to O12S Hello World Sacc
I mean, I don't like sac strats from an integrity point of view. I don't care if others do them, I just don't want to do it myself.
Same for sims. People are on their high horses about pixel perfect and cactbot, but those two combined are less useful in making prog easier than half an hour in the sim. Only difference is they interact with the game so are against ToS.
Sims are not against ToS. But they do to against the very design of the ultimate itself. It's okay to clear with a sim, it's just a video game after all. But don't go shouting about plugins.
Arguably only Splatoon and the likes are "worse" than the sim.
The fall of faith one seems programmed incorrect. The tether spawn order was randomized in the sim when its always boss > NW > N > NE in game
People are coping if they think this is cheating. The people who think this is cheating are people who have never done savage or an ultimate. I've only cleared UwU twice and my first clear, myself and my static used one for Ultima's Predation mechanic and it helped us immensely with learning it.
Penta legend here. Used sim for some and didn't use it for others.
I believe sims are cheating. The only hard part of an ultimate is the learning process and sims trivialize most of it. Now, if one does not enjoy the only hard part of the ultimate and doesn't enjoy the prog experience and just wants to clear, it's fine to sim. But don't complain about SE making easy fights are people using addons to make the fight easier when that is exactly the same as you're doing but through different means.
And yes, cactbot and pixel perfect have less influence on making the prog experience faster than slimming.
I always said there needs to be a simulation for mechs in game. It’ll help players like me on console, I don’t play on pc but that’s another story. I raid savagely and extreme trials. I never played an ultimate, but I can only imagine the pain to clear through pf. Anybody that raids through pf knows the pain, joining parties that lies about prog point, clear parties dying on 3rd to last mech, and the WAIT times to get a fight started. I don’t see sim as cheating for any type of play.
Reading through the TOS, it doesn't look like XIVSIMs is against TOS in terms of cheating, since the cheating section says the software is meant to 'modify the game and gameplay'.
Now, there's another section about creating derivative works, which XIVSIMs could fall under. Though, it does say "Of the Game". how closely does it have to resemble the game before it's considered derivative? No idea.
So can we get this for the actual game? I forget mechanics all the time and I would LOVE a way to be able to practice them before I hop back into a fight.
FFXIV And its player base, are Akin to a bucket of crabs. A vast majority of people complaining about what is cheating and what is not can’t even successfully do duty finder roulettes without dying.
But they will without hesitation, tell you what is allowed and not allowed? Yeah right. 😂
I do find the idea of having a chance to practice while waiting amazing! The only annoyance is that I am a console gamer and don't own a pc to run the sim so video guides and stuff like that is all I have. I do hope I never get kicked because I can't practice on the sim tho
If you wanna “purity test” the sim you gotta be doing it blind too.
People acting like taking longer to clear a fight is a good thing. Okay no life, stay on this game forever lmao
What a crazy take. Every game needs extreme content that disrespects your time for its hardcore players. So yes it's okay for some things to take way longer to do than others. If you don't have the time to do it, then do don't it, it wasn't made for you in the first place. Instead of accepting that you want outside tools to make the very thing that's supposed to be hard more accessible for a broader audience. For 99% of things that would be fine but when the content is designed for that 1% it's not.
Dont worry, 98% of all raiders uses boss mod anyways so sim isnt bad at all compared, also they will say they dont use it but they do
@@korymulcahey760 The only difference is time, getting to a mechanic 15mins into a fight to wipe instantly, and do it again and again. To reduce time, you just sim it and reduces the chance of fuck ups. I can do the content just fine, but I’d rather just practice the mechanic. Sorry I value time over the “honor” of clearing in a game. All you weirdos worried about the prestige of wasting hours and hours in a game lol. Even with a sim, it’s not like it doesn’t still take hours and hours anyway.
@@smexie2946 idk what boss mod is? I don’t think I’ve heard of it either.
@@Axemninja Ultimate was designed to spend a lot of time. They purposely made it so that you have to go through the first few phases every single pull just to practice a later phase. So why are you doing it if that's not your cup of tea? If simming didn't help, nobody would use them and we would never have this conversation? Of course it helps, it helps tremendously which is the problem.
i think sims are great ngl, but sadly i cant get them to run very well. sims just lag and load weird for me every time lol
make sure you have hardware acceleration turned on in your browser settings, otherwise it will lag.
@ oh wow, thank you! Didn’t even realize I had that off😅
Not ultimate related, but I was struggeling a lot with P7S eggs back in the day, with Abyssos being my first raid tier. Gladly, there was a sim so I could just practice different setups on my own, in an isolated environment, instead of having to wipe my way there. Really helpful.
Sims are great and I find it wild that people would be against them.
If sims are "cheating" then I ask where the difficulty of the game is anymore. Is it memorizing a touhou? Is it learning the touhou? It sure as fuck isn't playing the damn classes or the actual combat with the boss, and hasn't been since Gordias or Midas...
How people can do brain acrobatics to call this cheating is crazy.
This is probably going to be in the game at some point. I remember they were teasing it before hand with "battle tactics" that you can make and send to people in game. Putting self made guides in the game is an overall good thing. It helps statics prog without needing to find a third party tool and become less reliant on people making guides when they can use their eyes and find their own strategy.
The only advantage to not using the sim is the self-satisfaction of feeling like you conquered a difficult mechanic from seeing it 50 times (if not more). Problem is, you're wasting 7 (more if you're in multiple parties) other peoples' time to accomplish a selfish whim.
Reducing mistakes and the drama that comes with it to maximize fun should be a priority, and sims allow for this so I'm definitely all for them.
Ideally these simulations would be available in the game so you can practice them on your own time, maybe gating it to certain parts of progression after the first week of the fight being out, but that would probably be too much effort for very little payoff for Squeenix
I think sims are perfectly fine for the game personally. To me it's just one step above say watching a video guide or using a toolbox to tell you a strategy, with all three of those things being outside of the game and could be considered cheating by some. It isn't like anyone is forcing you to use a sim, and if you want to get practice on a mechanic that you get super stuck on or have a rough time understanding it could be way more beneficial in the long run for someone to be able to practice said mech on their own so they don't end up trapping parties.
Would you endorse SE putting in checkpoints after each phase going forward? It would eliminate the need for sims and also respect peoples time more, since that is why they’re saying they’re using sims.
@@ItsSVO Would cause active prog issues in the long run unless the ultimates are piss easy, checkpoints every phase means you realistically see a phase once and then never again for the rest of the 2 hour block. Only potential solution would be limiting the instance timer to an hour or less which would suck ass.
@ so you’re against simulators then? They’re essentially offering the same function as a checkpoint. Using a simulator is already making ultimates piss easy, so do you care about difficult or not? I’m not tracking the logic here.
If you need to use simulators to beat ultimates, all power to you. But you cannot use simulators and also say you want ultimates to be difficult, that’s hypocrisy. I’m against simulators because I’m also for ultimates being difficult. If I wanted ultimates to be easier, I’d use a simulator. It’s that simple.
@@ItsSVO There's a world of difference between "a checkpoint after every single phase" and "a tool to practice one mech 15 minutes into a fight" and one of those is something world having even if *you* don't want to use it. Nobody is forcing you to, you can join a PF and call it a day, but you don't get to bitch and moan later that you wasted hours getting 3 seconds into a mech because some lobotomite ate paste and couldn't be fucked to pretend to pay attention.
I don't give a damn what people use as long as i'm not spending 3 hours in 1 PF trying to get a clear
This so much
Preach
i have no issue with anyone else using them, but i personally dont like using them, i like taking time to get back to my prog point so that i can get better at the prog point and tryt o be more consistent, though i have never progged or cleared an ultimate so my opinion might change once i start doing them
I think sim helped a lot on top, but somehow I don't like it on FRU ( CT / Exas in P5 ) ( obviously very personal ) but I feel like there's some important details that you wouldn't notice in the sim but only while practicing the mechanic, now for sure it saves quite a lot of time in general
I remember trying to SIM Party Synergy with my group when we were progging TOP. it sucked lmao.
I understand the benefits sims can provide but for me personally, I hate them from a "this feels nothing like the actual game and is not benefitting me at all I'd rather be studying a visual guide" standpoint. Maybe I was just using the wrong ones but XIVSim was the main one we used and it just felt terrible to play on, we would spend 30 minutes of prog time in it, then go into the fight and still have people not be able to do the mech despite executing it in the sim. so, personally, idc if people use them or find benefit in them but imo, they seem kind of like a trap that gives players false confidence about mechanics
"You guys need to practice in the sim, I'm glad we're here" 😭
I play on console. So I can’t even use this stuff if I wanted to.
As a none raider i do have one burning question
Why am i watching this?
The one potential downside to sims is that there can be quirks that are different from the game that can get you used to specific things that will kill you in game. As long as you don't oversim though, even that is a very minor issue.
Xeno said it himself, it's a waste of everyone's 12 mins just to get to crystalize time and wipe in 5 seconds. So why are you doing ultimates? Everyone knows that's how ultimates are and you chose to do them knowing a core part of its challenge and design is starting from the beginning after every wipe. If sims didn't exist that's the only way you'd be able to practice later mechanics, is by getting through the earlier phases. Artificial difficulty? That's completely subjective and can be applied to anything you don't like. Aoes doubling up when someone dies, untelegraphed aoes, having 1s less to solve a mechanic, are technically all artificial difficulty, the same way you can't practice a later phase without going through the first 12 minutes of the fight.
Simming isn't cheating though and anyone that thinks so is just dumb, but that's not the point. It's another tool that makes the content easier. These fights are supposed to be difficult and whether you agree with the challenge of grinding 12 minutes of a tedious fight just to practice 5s of a new mechanic, it's the entire point of the content and if you don't like it then why are you doing it? Simming like every other tool that are and aren't cheats, are lame. It's fine if you want to use these tools but it's annoying when you don't want to acknowledge how it dilutes the content.
Bingo, couldn’t agree more. Part of an ultimates difficult and design is having to earn practice at your prog point. If you haven’t got the time or patience for that then the content simply isn’t for you.
Even if they're _not_ against TOS, they're using the in-game models (and presumably reusing whatever code runs mechanics instead of recreating them from scratch). Now, I'm no IP lawyer but I'm pretty sure that's straight up illegal. As much as I enjoy these sorts of practice tools, I wouldn't like to get used to learning through tools that could very easily be taken away at SE's whim. I'm not gonna tempt fate.
I don't get what is difficult about what is and isn't cheating.
Does it modify the game, in real time, to do things that are otherwise not possible to do with the game using native behaviour, eg showing the AoE circles for mechs that have them disabled, or macros that are capable of things the built in macros cannot do? Then it's a cheat.
Are you using native behaviour to do things that were clearly unintended, eg performing actions which let you bypass invisible barriers or duplicating items? That's exploitation, which is a form of cheating.
Not all ToS violations are cheating, but cheating is a ToS violation.
When it comes to the ToS, it is strictly focused on things which upset the balance of the game. This includes automated or absentee play. It also lists what constitutes a ToS violating use of data.
Anything that modifies, analyses, integrates or reverse engineers game data is ToS breaking. What constitutes game data is not defined (i.e it doesn't explicitly say if generated game logs are considered game data or not).
So, if the online simulator replicates the game and encounters to its best ability from observations, it's probably ok. If it actually uses files from the game, then it would probably breach ToS. In either case, it's not cheating as it doesn't impact the game balance in real time anymore than simply practicing the encounter over and over. You still have to access the content and play it to win.
I never thought I'd see the day people would fucking complain about the sim of all fucking things LMFAO. I LOVE simming. The Sim cuts down on prog, but how exactly is it cheating? Its not like using cactbot or triggernometry where it interacts with the game. The sim is amazing, but it doesn't have those tiny nuances that you'll find in game. Its an incredibly helpful tool and cut down my FRU prog exponentially. What would have taken my group at least a few weeks, only took us a few days
Raiding in XIV is really just dancing through bullet hell
What would I want an ultimate weapon for? I'll just buy a weapon next expac.
Saying simming is bad for the game is like saying F1 teams using simulators for their drivers to test stuff is bad for the sport.
It doesn't constitute cheating or doping in any way, shape, or form. Calling out simming is just tantamount to gatekeeping, and a poor one at that.
The people who are against this are just gatekeepers. I'm sick of this attitude of "I didn't need XYZ so you shouldn't either". People have all kinds of differences in how they best learn things, so I think it's moronic to assume that if everyone just watched the same video that you did everything should be fine. Practice runs are arguably the best way to learn any raid, but it can be really frustrating when you wipe over and over again because you don't know where to stand, or, more importantly, how to figure out where to stand. On top of that, if you don't learn a raid within the first month or so, it's nearly impossible to put a practice group together. Sims seem like the ideal solution to me because they allow you to practice specific mechanics for as long as you need to, without inconveniencing 7 other people.
As long as you are using the argument about time, the conclusion will always be the same:
The game should be easier, as this means you will need to spend less time on it.
"Cheating" will make sense and even more mods will be used, as with each mod that helps you, you win even more time. At the end of the day, in order to win against time, you will try your hardest to do all these things, only to realise that you cannot win against it and you would have been better off enjoying yourself instead. I am not saying that sim or anything else is right or wrong, I am just saying that with this argument, eventually everything becomes viable, given time (pun intended)
People put way too much emphasis on the sim. Like it's a make or break for practice. It's a nice tool to have, to understand how mechanics resolve and positions to be in but it will never be a full substitute for actually being present in the game. People act like it's cheating because it's a 1 to 1 transfer, it's not lmao.
My definition of cheating is pretty simple: It's cheating if it's some tool or software that interacts with the game to make the fight easier, either by solving mechanics or playing the game for you or showing you stuff you are not supposed to see. So stuff like splatoon, automarkers etc. Simulators are not connected to the game in any way so I don't think it's cheating.
Combat sim is an incredible tool! Normal people who have jobs and even some sort of life need this tool. Anyone complaining and especially taking the time to condemn others, do not have a life of their own, and shouldn't be taken seriously.
I've poked at the sim before and was a little disappointed as a brand new raider to not see M4S but this tool seems really helpful in general.
Sims take a LOT of time and effort to create, so people don't tend to make them for savage content since it will become irrelevant so quickly. Savage is temporary, Ultimate is forever. It's sad, but it is just how it is.
@@kman6004 I kind of assumed it was because people have claimed this tier is very easy (which it could be or not this is my very first savage tier), it would have just been definitely helpful to be able to resolve mechanics without the stress of killing friends. There is a little flash-game like tool that's helped a lot though.
@@xJadeWolfxx This tier is a lot easier than most of the EW fights, but that mainly comes down to how forgiving they are dps and bodycheck wise. For m4s the only mechs that would be worth having in the sim are witchhunt (since it's arguably the only "hard" mech in phase 1) and a few of the sabbaths that can be somewhat confusing at first glance.
Do agree that it'd be nice to have at least those though.
i will stop simming when prog parties reach the stated progpoint at least 4 times per lockout then we can start talking about it
I thought the point of progging was to learn the fight on your own. I wont go as far as to say its cheating since it actually doesnt teach you mechanics. I do feel like its less rewarding though.
If this is cheating using pokemon showdown to train and try teams is cheating, both are just sims so you can practise without needing too much time as an adult.
if people have the time to practise in a sim but not being able to do a long time prog due to adulhood... wheres the harm?
People who think the sim is cheating are the type of people not to study for the test and wonder why they failed
is it cheating to speed up the process by targeting specific phases to be able to practice them? thats the only question you have to ask
you can easily argue that getting to a phase to even be able to practice it in the first place is part of the difficulty, so i would say it is
RIP guides being cheating
@@maybayV2 guides arent a gameplay practicing tool, its really simple to not conflate those things
if they were, sims wouldnt be needed and you would just watch a guide 100 times to practice a fight
@hallo-mt5tx But I'm able to get to that phase and practice it in my mind by seeing it visualized in a guide
Ah, I see, that must mean going over the mechanics in my mind is cheating. Thank you for clearing up your statement.
@@maybayV2 just keep conflating so you can feel better about your achievements
there is no way you actually believe this
@@hallo-mt5tx I'm just repeating your own logic.
My achievements? Where, lmao.
That sim looks cool. It’s in SEs interest for you to not use tools and end up progging for the rest of your life as you’re then paying more sub.
Fix the glamour dresser, glamour system, and title system, then I will care about the effort to clear ultimate in vanilla manner. Otherwise, don't care if people use Simulator, or ACT, or anything beyond those.
I mean I have been kicked out of a party for not fcking up lol but the leader was just a jerk...
Game and community have been going downhill since endwalker finale. I wonder if the endwalker/dawntrail split is going to be seen the same as ffxi pre/after lvl 75 cap era
Saying this is cheating is like saying pilots are cheating by training in flight sims.
Yes but the actual pilot comparing people wanting to have fun in a video game by raiding in game, to someone willing to risk endangering their own or others actual real lives by flying without a flight sim is a little ridiculous.
that makes no sense if you think about it for a minute
making a task easier when the entire point of it is to be the ultimate challenge is cheating in a way
that doesnt apply to flying a plane at all, there are completely different priorities like safety
I think the sim is harmless. It's not a 1:1 of the game, but it gets you over the hurdle of seeing the whole picture and getting the feel of how to do the mechanic.
How is that harmless though? I’d say while sims aren’t against TOS they provide a much bigger advantage most other plugins that are against TOS.
@ItsSVO If it's created with data mining, then I agree with you, but it looks like it's just made with data caught while playing normally. While you could make the argument that a plug-in being used to catch the data might be going too far, the sim itself is available to everyone and an extremely helpful tool to learn the fight. It's no more game breaking than being able to check the market board and see a whole bunch of hidden stats on Universalis outside of the game. If anything, it's more or less an interactive guide video.
@ it’s not like those things at all though. It’s not about whether the sim is available for all, it’s about the fact it provides you access to practice something without having the need to kill prior phases first which is not the intention of the devs, who see ultimates difficulty in having to continuously pass the gauntlet.
It’s why many of the more mechanically heavy savage turn 4’s that are two bosses have checkpoints. Because if they didn’t they’d be ultimate difficulty encounters. If you take away having to run the gauntlet to practice mechanics then you’re essentially reducing ultimates to savage and that then defeats the entire purpose of the encounter, which was made to be more difficult than savage. Theres a reason the last phases of an ultimate are generally easy mechanics repeated over and over as a victory lap.
I mean why would they get banned for using the sim? it doesnt even interact with the game
Sims are as much cheating as looking up strats or watching a guide video are, that is to say not at all.
It'd be like saying any practice an athlete does before an official match is cheating.
This is a false equivalence logical fallacy. Guides do not ingrain muscle memory, a simulator does. The whole difficult of XIV is based on muscle memory and repetition. You cannot compare an athletes.
People make the weirdest hills to die on. It is just tribal us/them gate keeping idiocy.
Have people forgotten the definition of cheating? Is it cheating to practice before a game? Is studying before a test cheating? Sims dont impact the fight in game.
So can I go into the game right now and practice wormhole on my own, choosing each limit cut number repeatedly without beating phase 1 or 2? if I cannot do that then then you’re incorrect.
@@ItsSVO You also cannot go into the game and see Phase 3 mechanics if you're still progging Diamond Dust. Under your definition, watching a clear VOD would also constitute cheating. Pure nonsense.
Ngl i wish there were certiain add ons that yoshi p would implement into ffxiv.
Nah. 2:00 in and I can't watch anymore. What's the point of these videos if I can't hear Xeems over his chat making stupid ass sounds non-stop
I got no static or friends and cant find any fresh grps... ima use the sim lol 😅
I understand both sides. Part of the intended difficulty of the Ultimates is the fact that it's a gauntlet that resets everytime you wipe. An ultimate would be much less difficult if there was a checkpoint after each boss, for example.
That being said, I think that's a lame way of making something difficult, and so a sim helps take out the BS and focus on the other portion of the difficulty which is herding your goofy ahh teammates into getting in the right position. I think it's cheating for sure, but like Xeno said, I don't really care if you're cheating if you don't wipe me.
if the goal is to save time your doing it all wrong, you can literally pay for clears or just use cheats it actually saves MORE time than doing a sim and the more you pay people the more of them will pop up to do it for you duh
Their egos would never allow that.
the goal is to cheat just enough they can still convince themselves they did something really challenging for their gamer ego
thats literally all it is
If the sim is cheating then using aim labs to practice/train your aim for valorant and cs is cheating
Both, next question.
Solid video
Watching Xeno on youtube is like watching a Mukbang channel
Yeah, time to win is for kids. Intelligent adults use money and tools. It's not stone age.
Simulations require data-mined files, which is technically against TOS; you don't necessarily have to be for or against something to call it what it is. Have fun and stop caring what people think (I guess?).
yep, perfectly legit. as other comments have pointed out, just like discord, because this sim doesnt interact with the game at all, it's not against TOS. it's technically considered a "second party tool", the same as using paint or a raid planner for communicating strats
I think they need to add this kind of system to the game so people stop complaining about it. The only concern is that it raises the expectations of party members to possibly an unreasonable level, making people unfairly impatient with mistakes
If this is cheating then watching hector guides is cheating lmao can’t believe this is even a debate
Please tell me how watching a guide builds muscle memory.
It objectively is not cheating, and this is an idiotic debate. Sims don't drop you into a late phase of the actual fight; they are pretend simulations that allow you to study and practice mechanics. They are like interactive guides. If they're cheating, so is watching a VOD or a Hector video.
It seems quite clear that there is a difference between practicing and watching. How close to reality does a sim need to be to become cheating?
I think they're more effective than cactbot and pixel perfect to making the fight easier. If people are okay with sims, they are okay with making the fight easier. That is alright, nothing wrong with that. But they should know that is what they're doing.
Ultimates are not hard. The fights are really static. They're complex, but the only hard part about them is the learning process. So if one trivialized the learning process, there is nothing hard about them anymore.
@@Combo7-y2h who would you trust to fly your plane more, somebody who has hours in a realistic simulator with physical apparatus 1:1 with the aircraft or somebody who’s watched a video showing you what to do?
@@ItsSVO Two entirely different fields: One is you going about your life in a hobby, the other is you being responsible for HUMAN LIVES. An incredible logical fallacy.
@@hallowedgrave2360 Watching Kindred prog the fight makes the fight easier. Studying your opener on the Balance and asking questions on their Discord server makes the fight easier. Practicing mechanics in a sim makes the fight easier. I'd love to hear what makes some of these permissible and others not. I'm not sure why you're comparing anything to Cactbot and Pixel Perfect, as those are add-ons that interact with the game.
@@ItsSVO I would expect a pilot entrusted with the lives of other people to do everything in their power to be the best pilot they can be. I'm trying to understand the purpose of your comment. Is it to say that practicing in a sim is effective? Uh, yeah dude. Practicing something makes you better at it. We're in agreement there. Are you trying to say that because practice makes you better at something, it equates to cheating? Is that your take?
The sim is not even an 1-to-1 recreation of the game. I've used it in every static I've been in, and it feels very different than in game. The sim serves mainly for you to futher develop your muscle memory for the fight, which you would anyway if you did the fight a lot.
no but the whole point is to cut down on prog time especially for mechanics far in the fight
Most of the time there's still some adjustment needed once you get in game but it makes it way faster/easier to comprehend what you actually need to look at or develop some shortcuts in your mind.
Honestly the thing to keep in mind is just EXACT positioning might vary but just laying groundwork it's amazing
I used the DSR sim because I couldn't comprehend p5 for some reason. I figured it out eventually by using it and it also made p6 crazy easy lol
@@marslarabut that whole process what you just described is why people think it's a cheat. I didn't use sims for dsr but did for p5 on top. It feels like a cheat to me. Like someone giving you all the answers to a test, just need to remember them.
I feel that the hardest part of the ultimate is the learning process. But also the consistency and marathon like check to actually learn. The whole design of them points to it: no check points, body checks, dps checks, brutal damage downs. Everything points to the designers wanting you to get consistent, and get the endurance in to prog.
Now, if you want to make it easier on yourself. That is fine. It's alright to just want to clear and don't really enjoy hard endurance fights. Since fights are really static, the only hard part is the initial hurdle.
@hallowedgrave2360 I do think it's a cheat lol but I would call ACT a cheat too. I don't think they auto clear the fight for you and imo they eliminate arbitrary factors and certainly don't make me feel greasy clearing so meh
I think if I was in a static though I probably wouldn't have used it... unless my team wanted to I guess. Just PF is truly a terrible place to prog, and parties could hardly see p5 half the time. So for me it's a necessary evil just like AM 🤷🏾♀️ but for the ones who get upset about sims I have no reason to care nor do I care about the other people using "worse" cheats as long as had I fun and feel accomplish I'm good personally. DSR is definitely my favourite ult and I cried when I cleared lol so no regrets here
Why is this dude eating in like EVERY video.
People who plays on console cant access to this, so this is a cheat.
I would definitely kick someone if they joined my pf and did something like automarkers or spoiling mechanics because I do everything blind. And I say that in the pf description, so sims would be a problem. I like the process of figuring things out as a party, regardless of how old I get or how long it takes.
sim kind of defeats the purpose of playing the game. you just did it in the sim, why bother doing it in the game afterwards? you robbed yourself
it's not like its a race competition where you're studying to compete against other people. it's not pvp for cash prizes.it's a fucking video game. you're already wasting your time. if there was something greater on the line I could understand wanting to use it. but i don't like the idea. That said, if you want to sim go for, but i'd suggest you just git gud instead. mmo raids are not hard at all, they just require you to pay attention with some minimum level of gear check
You still have to clear the mechanic and the fight in the game, how is practicing it in the sim robbing you of anything? Would you imply the same when watching guides about fights and/or certain mechanics to get a grasp on how to solve it?
@@DarkKerialstraz Why play the game at all when you can just sim it?
You play the game because there is greater risk /reward. The risk / reward isn't that great to begin with, it doesn't translate anything into real life, it's just a game. You diminish it that much more when you sim and you're watching videos of someone telling you how to play the game before you play it. You're just doing copy cat.
I would absolutely 100% agree that watching a boss fight before you encounter it is robbing yourself of the experience the devs set out for you. Why have someone tell you how the puzzle is solved without giving yourself the chance to solve the puzzle yourself? This entirely defeats the purpose of a puzzle. Part of the fun of puzzle solving is solving it yourself, not having others solve it for you and then just doing what they do.
Also, part of what makes a game fun is the skill of a game, is learning how to adapt, and change with what is coming at you. Learning what to do and look at for in real time is part of the game. I think that is what helps makes games interesting. No MMO mechanic is so complex that you can't react to it on the fly.
You're also ruining the immersion aspect, the first time of seeing a big bad scary looking boss and encountering all of their moves for the first time.
Everything about it, imo, is ruined when you've watched the raid already.
And really, I don't care that much to begin with if YOU'RE using a sim. You're only robbing yourself, you're not robbing me in that situation. However I don't like the idea that it should be normalized, or even promoted in this instance.
There is something extremely toxic in MMOS when your first encounter is supposed to be, "watch a video and know the fight now, don't waste my time." and the new raid boss just came out.
fuck those people.
@@TonyGosu There are literally "blind prog" statics or parties that are your ideal type for that. A lot of others use external ressources to find optimal rotations, gauge DPS and communicate with each other - all tools being "accepted" as part of the experience even though it robs you of simply "playing the game".
Besides that what is considered "fun" is incredibly subjective. I have fun beating bosses in Dark Souls-type games, learning patterns while others have fun "breaking" boss AI or the game through cheesy methods.
Puzzles are only fun when being solved the first time you do them. Once you've done that, regardless of methodology, you have to clear the mechanic over and over again.
You can't decide how others should enjoy the game, because you have a specific type of "fun" attached to it. Some love solving the puzzle, others want to better themselves and play the fights while optimizing, while others stand in Limsa Lominsa and RP.
People who dont sim should be blacklisted, keep the Ultimate playerbase pure and skilled xffing
Not cheating but don't force it on other people, I saw PF that said "Use sim for so and so mechs don't waste our time" which I think is garbage no matter how hard the mech is let people play the actual game to practice if they want. It should be in-game just like a striking dummy to make it fair is all.
If you dont have the same philosophy as the rest of a party dont join that party
"Dont force it on other people" is also forcing your view on them
You are telling them to waste their time with someone who will likely cause more wipes due to not having experience
@@V2ULTRAKillhit with that reverse uno lol
Hey while we are at it... people say dont use sims. Fuck. Dont use guides either lol. Just go in there and bang your head blindly. Make your own party for it.
@petree exactly
If you don't have a static with a mutual blind only philosophy (they're easy to find) don't pitch when PF groups want you to have a guide or sim a mechanic
There is 0 tie-in or interaction between a website simulation and your game files. There is no TOS being broken.
True, but it’s cheating the developers of the fight and ruining the integrity and makes the “ultimate” aspect pointless.
Would you be behind the team if they started adding checkpoints after each phase going forward? Surely you would, as that’s the same thing as using a sim essentially.
"essentially" =/= actually. A checkpoint would be IN THE GAME that we are talking about. A nonaffiliated website is not.
@@TS-uc4hi yes. So, would you not agree that having checkpoints going forward would make everyone using simulators happy or not? I think SE should start putting them in so the people who can’t do the fight without simulators wouldn’t have the need for them. It’s not about TOS, it’s about simulators shitting all over the integrity of the fight. Using these programs isn’t good for the game, whether they’re against TOS or not.
FFXIV raid sims are the whiteboards of the new age. If John Madden had little animated football dudes to go along with his markers it would've been great. This is the nerd version.
It's separate from the game and just streamlined so someone who has the knowledge doesn't have to constantly re-draw shit on microsoft paint.
How is drawing something on a white board at all similar to a simulator? Simulation have you performing physically building muscle memory. White boards are purely visual.
@ItsSVO the connection is that the whiteboard is the predecessor to the simulators and we use them to illustrate a situation with minimal consequence. Both Xenosys and I are old enough to remember times without simulators or internet. In the example I gave, the player was not the person I was arguing for. The person that has the relevant knowledge that wants to show someone else what to do is the one who CREATED the sim, not uses it. He is the one who would be "using" the whiteboard," to show--for example--someone how to fly a plane before you endanger a copilot instructor. All we did was use technology to improve that process by creating sims to provide a BETTER visualization. Throw in some user input that allows the user to build that muscle memory and it's even better. Do you think that is what makes it cheap and too far? What about athletes, who use training equipment to practice movements relevant to their sports before a game? Combine the two (drawing boards and training equipment) and you have a sim.
TLDR: These sims are basically like having a sports coach, that knows what he's talking about, show you the mechanics of a sport. We used to use whiteboards for this. Now we have sims, which combine the visual aids with the physical ones.
bald