@@nathanfrazier8525 I regularly go back, even to the very first video. Mainly going by playlist (Bring back random acts of violence! "we want violence") I still believe I'm the last person to comment on hus first video too... (don't you dare go back and post on it now just because I said that xD you can reply to some comment instead xD)
Pep I completely agree. I really wish he'd make more of these. Does anyone know where i can find Jingles original video on the USS Massachusetts? Please & Thank you
no offense but the captain of this ship deserves a medal. yeah sure he was a Nazi but come on making sure the crews of sunken ships were in life boats and even sent distressed signals on their behalf is a very honorable thing to do.
Bryan Nieves While en route for Montevideo the Graf Spee found a merchant ship... Langsdorff send a message to the Ajax and the Achilles and told them "Please pick up the lifeboats of the cargo ship", then he ordered the merchant ship to stop. The captain of the cargo didn't... and Langsdorff decided to don't open fire on a civil ship with the crew still onboard. He was an example that even during war it was still possible to be humans and do the honorable thing
+Bryan Nieves Are you sure he was a Nazi? He was a humanist and I don't think that he was a party member. The Kriegsmarine wasn't the SS. His raids didn't cost a single civilians live! And he thought to protect the lives of his crew and when hew had been trolled by the sneaky Brittish into sinking his ship. Even Brittish sailors were present at his funeral, after he took his live lieing on the flag of his ship. It's a shitty world because the realy good people die so fast while horrible persons mircaulously survive the awfull deadly situations. We love the Graf Spee! It is a Legend. I don't wonder her beeing in the Game at all. Althou it's a failed concept as German engineers realized later to build battlecruizers by sacrificing BB guns for CL speed and keeping BB armor.
Hans Langsdorff was not a Nazi in any way, rather like much of the German navy in WWII, and when he shot himself he wrapped his body in the old WWI German naval ensign first, an act no Nazi would have done.
No offence, but just because a person served for Nazi Germany didn't make them a Nazi. A true Nazi was exactly that - part of the Nazi Party. Many could be found in the SS divisions. Others were just simply military men who were fighting for their country. A few notables I can mention are Kaplt. z. S. Engelbert Endrass, commander of U-46, Feldwebel Kurt Knispel of the 503rd Schwerepanzer-Abtielung, and of course, Rommel and Donitz. I don't mean to be rude, it just annoys me when people blur the line between a German and a Nazi...some people don't deserve to be branded with that title.
I can't say why, but listening to The Mighty Jingles talk history makes it that much more enjoyable. I cannot say if it's the fact his British, or the tone of his voice, but personally I can't seem to get enough of these types of his videos. Thanks for taking the time to give the history of the ships and everything else... a Canadian fan!
That is also true, but there is also a lot of needless destruction: For instance the scuttling of dozens of German U-boats after the war, instead of putting them in museums where they belong.
Cobra6 Gaming That would've cost a lot of money, and at the time, Britain was very, very broke. It took decades for the British economy to fully recover from WW2. The simple truth is that nobody could afford to preserve much, although everyone would've loved it if HMS Warspite had been preserved. We're honestly lucky that HMS Victory and Warrior are still around.
There is no excuse for breaking up Warspite. It more than deserved to be saved as a museum ship. I could understand HMS Vanguard due to her massive size and the amount of resources in her, but not Warspite.
Yeah I understand that to a point, but there is a very important point: Once you sink these U-boats they are gone forever, also for future generations. Is the short term problem: "Not enough money" worth the long term loss? I say it wasn't.
She doesn't play like a cruiser at all which is why she feels so good to me. I have 53% win rate in world of warships with close to 3000 games. But with nearly 150 battles in the graf spee I have a 65% win rate in her. As a battleship player her accuracy seems fantastic to me. Your right your land about 2 shells at 16km but that's a 33% hit rate. Her torp angles are fantastic probably around 150 degrees per side. She can fire forward with just a slight turn then turn back and launch the other side or continue to close in to say 3-4 km from a battleship and as it frantically turns to avoid the first torps you turn out and fire the second batch at point blank from your ass. Angled she can tank T5 and T6 battleships and do unstoppable torpedo runs. The secondaries do surprise me the range sucks so I would never do a secondary build but I end up setting a lot of fires per game which means I spend a lot of time under 4 km to enemy ships. Just got kraken on it this afternoon. I find the ship to be a cash register 3 games and ill add a million credits to my account. The hydro I ran for 50 games or so but in the end I traded that in for defensive fire. I can add vigilance to the captain with my last 3 points but even with out it I fell very safe from torps just don't chase DDs. It was carriers that were punishing me before but with 2 fighters that last 6 mins and with defensive fire and focus firing I am able to defend myself form air planes better then in most ships. Obviously were not talking 700 + damage a second I get from my tricked out north Carolina's AA but good enough to knock 10-15 planes out of the sky which often results in them moving to easier targets. I had a clan flip out on me last night in a game the carrier freaked when his torp group was entirely shot down and scored no hits he swore like crazy at me then his bb buddy came at me and found out how dangerous this ship is at close ranges which made him even more upset when I sank him. And it was even sweeter this game since the first savo of my game I fired at range at a Omaha and she sunk instantly from full health giving me devastating strike and first kill. I agree with you this ship isn't for every one of even most players as I see a lot of bad players in it but in the right hands I am finding it to be a fantastic seal clubber. And routinely see 80-100k on good games and 40k when I am up tiered to t8s.
I understand why you condense the history of the ships in newer videos and talk about them at the start of the battle but I do miss this style of videos where it’s a short history of the ship followed by it in action
I always love the little historical rundowns attached to these vids. Especially when they tell that even on the wrong side of a conflict, there are still gentlemen to be found.
Your war story narratives are a joy sir. As a retired Coasty I recognize your obvious understanding of life at sea and the implications for the crew and their ship. More of these would be welcome. ETC USCG (Ret) sends.
That's more to say about the Tirpitz's guns being quicker than the average Battlship gun than the Spee's guns being slower than the average Cruiser's. The Spee's turrets traverse faster than the Cleveland, Aoba, Pensacola, Myoko, New Orleans and Mogami.
I would argue that, through my experience, Graf Spee is also incredibly maneuverable, especially when you equip the speed flag and the Steering Gears Mod. 2 upgrade. This means that, while you do have to expose an uncomfortable amount of Broadside to get a full salvo off, you don't have to expose it near as long as, say, a battleship. You can make Clevelands rage in chat by just juking around and making all their shots miss, and battleships, unless they're watching incredibly close and have their timing down to extreme precision, are almost never going to get more than one penetrating hit on you. With your hydro on, it also makes you almost immune to everything but carrier-launched torpedoes, which means that you're gonna be pissing-off destroyer captains by putting big hits into them (1 full penetration deals over 2k damage) while they try to get their torpedoes away, and you just dodge them.
Naval Museum at Devonport, NZ has a size comparison of the shells fired by all ships in that engagement. Main gun shells from the other three ships all fit inside a main gun shell from the Graf Spee, with PLENTY of room to spare.
Much respect to the captain of Graf Spee, who took the decision to save the crew, but cleared his honor Japanese style for not attempting a brave and potentially suicidal breakthrough the British.
Eddie Rudolph That's completely false. He was lying on the Graf Spee's battle ensign. The final letter he wrote to his family and superiors read: "I can now only prove by my death that the fighting services of the Third Reich are ready to die for the honour of the flag. I alone bear the responsibility for scuttling the panzerschiff Admiral Graf Spee. I am happy to pay with my life for any possible reflection on the honour of the flag. I shall face my fate with firm faith in the cause and the future of the nation and of my Führer.'". He was loyal to Hitler to the last.
That is a great scenario. The Exeter has to stay alive long enough for the other two to close in to make their guns effective and to get torpedoes off. "Request Permission Revise List of Spares"
GodjiraPlays That's exactly what I tried to do, charge with the lights and keep Exeter at range, but like I said one extremely lucky shot from Graff Spee and she exploded.
I wish Jingles would bring back these historically narrated videos. I think everyone would collectively appreciate this format MORE than just gameplay.
Jingles, panzerschiff was the german equivalent of the American large cruiser designation, of which Saint Luis is an example. In 1940 the Deutschland class was reclassified by Germany as heavy cruisers. This is why Graf spee is in the cruiser line instead of the battleship line like battlecruisers myogi, kongo, ishizuchi, and amagi. Heavily armed cruiser, not lightly armored battleship.
hey jingles been watching ur videos for the past 2 years i really like your content like when you talk about the history of the ships its awesome love to hear back from you :)
Myogi, amagi, ishizuchi, and the other battlecruisers are in battleship line. Deutschland class were reclassified as heavy cruisers by germany before WWII, so shes in the heavy cruiser line :)
I recently started playing her, and I had come to the same conclusion as you did in the video before watching. Graf Spee is above all else a cruiser killer, and I learned the hard way that sticking around and supporting your allies is actually not the way to go in this ship.
FYI according to "Hitler's lost battleship" (available on YT) the Spee's commander made a mistake by carrying night exercises in waters that could have potentially had regular traffic - thus a norvegian trade ship spotted the lights and called the Brits via telegraph.
Battlecruisers in the game are classed as Battleships, like the Kongo-class (later designated as fast battleships) and Amagi. It could also be argued that the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau are what the Germans would consider Battlecruisers; battleship armor, but lighter guns and higher speed, but the Germans retired the designation of Battle Cruisers after WW1, only the Royal Navy kept the designation in use for WW2.
Jingles; Nice linked video about the USS Massachusetts. I live about 35 miles from there and stop by yearly. Its a great site. In addition to BB 59, Battleship Cove contains DD-850 (Gearing Class) Joseph P. Kennedy, SS-298 (Balao Class) Lionfish and both Elco and Higgins PT boats. Usually there is some "old timers" around who served on one of the ships/boats and are glad to talk about the life. Next time you hit NY City, its about 2.5-3 hours away by car.
I've found that the Graf Spee suits my playstyle very well, what you need to do in this ship is changing targets poke at everything that presents a good shot and then get out of there. And the guns are definitely accurate enough to nail dds at medium range
One thing to note when comparing the Graf Spee to the Scharnhorst is that at longer range, the Scharnhorst retains penetration and velocity better due to its heavier shells. at 16 km, the Scharnhorst shells will beat the Graf Spee shells by 0.5 seconds. The Scharnhorst can do penetration damage at longer range more reliably than the Graf Spee can.
I'd like to note that the hit on the oil purification plant was effectively mortal. The Graf Spee had giant diesel engines, which could not run on untreated oil. According to the reports I've read, the ship had less than 24 hours worth of useable fuel left.
got mine with the G F mission and yeah she is a good ship once you have worked out how she behaves :) I feel she is best played in a division and lots of communication with your allies too . but she is a lot of fun :)
The Graf Spee being in the cruiser line makes sense because her displacement puts her there. WWII cruiser displacement requirements were between 6,000 - 19,000 tons. Technically though she falls into the Armored Cruiser ship type designation because of her capital caliber guns which was a primary requirement for ACRs. Granted Graf Spee would have been a WWII modern version of the older Pre Dreadnought era ACRs. She'd be a fun DD and cruiser hunter. I was hoping they'd split the cruiser and capital lines but WG said they didn't have any plans to do so. Maybe that'll change later.
I figure ships like Hood and Renown would be classified as battleships. Graf Spee mounts an 11-in gun battery, which is arguably very low caliber for a battleship. However, Hood and Renown were armed with 15-in guns, which are somewhat large caliber (same as the Bismarck's, and that's a _Tier 8_ battleship).
Although it's got cruiser levels of armour this actually gives it an edge in certain circumstances. It means that BB calibre shells are more likely to simply over pen for 10% damage instead of a full pen damage roll. I've only played a handful of games in mine but during my first ever game I got just short of 100k damage and completely trolled the Scharnhorst on the enemy team eventually sinking him with torps. It's the definition of a glass cannon.
I always went with the assumption that Battle/Large cruisers and panzerschiffe would be placed as side branches that connect the Cruiser and battleship lines, and a few special cases like the _Lexington_-class battlecruiser designs that connect the battleship and Carrier lines
It makes good sense for this ship to be a cruiser. The Kongo is a battlecruiser that fits in the battleship line since it is battleship sized. Graf Spee is very much a cruiser size ship and it has a lot fewer guns than a battleship should, Ok the Myogi has only 6 guns, but they're bigger than the guns on the Graf Spee, and it's only a tier 4.
By German classification, Graf Spee is a cruiser. German battlecruisers, unlike the British ones, were rather heavily armored. British CCs were about Speed and Firepower, sacrificing Armor. German CCs were about Armor and Speed, sacrificng gun caliber. Take the SMS Seydlitz, the pounding she took would have sunk the Graf Spee several times over. British CCs would likely be slotted into the BB tree, as there's precedence there, Kongo and Amagi were both battlecruisers.
Jingles, with the new commander skills, you get the concealment skill putting the Graf's detectability at about 11km. That makes this much more survivable, because between reloads, your bloom will reduce to 11km again, and off the mini map.
Hey Jingles, I read in a german book (written in the 70s, had it from a library, sadly don't remember the name)about the battle of the plate that the british intelligence redirected allied merchant ships to return and then leave this port in Uruguay every 23 hours so they could get the blockade in place before the graf spee could run for argentina or brazil. According to this book it was forbidden for a warship of an opposing faction to leave port if a merchant ship of the other faction had left port less than 24 hours ago. This explains also why the graf spee didn't leave in those 72 hours of maximum stay after minor repairs before the blockade was ready. The graf spee was trapped. The captain, who had strict orders to break through the blockade knew it was a suicide mission. Because he rated the life of his crewmembers higher than the order to sacrifice them in a hopeless battle, he gave order to scuttle his ship. But he also knew that he would be marked as a traitor so he decided to end his life himself so the crew couldn't be held accountable by the autorities. He sacrificed himself for the life of his crew. He was a hero to his men and held onto his humanity in this time of great inhumanity. Hope you see this comment and shed some light on the bravery of this man. He would deserve it. o7
The story of the Graf Spee is my favourite war story of them all. Captain Langsdorf really showes that not all germans during WW2 were bloodthirsty Nazis. Thats why i bought this thing as soon as it launched and it just happens to fit my agressive playstyle pretty well. One of the strongest Points of it are it's torps that get underestimated so often by the enemy.
Um Mighty Jingles I played amatch last night with the Graf Spee and faced two destoryers alone a sank them. the secondaries rock on this. though i did give it a disperssion modulce. to help accuracy. it was a double strike as well.
It is a bit hard to play with it, yes. I did once sink tier 7 battleship in less than 2 km distance by citadelling it and then torping it with all 4 torpedoes, he was full hp, and then very fast, he wasn't XD
Heres how I get a good deal of fighting without being blown up by BB's on the Graf Spee: At the beginning of a battle, I only travel at half speed, this allows me to decide where to go without being rushed. By traveling at half speed, I get to fire shots at enemy ships without being a major target. I only go full speed if there are a few ships left or if necessary.
Ty Jingles! I am pretty sure Langsdorf had no permission to scuttle her, he was supposed to break out. He shot himself because his officers talked him out of going down with her because his leadership was still required to secure the fate of his crew. Only after that did he symbolically "went down with her". Langsdorf also was no Nazi who made sure to follow the rules fo cruiser-war, as Jingles noted and was respected for this by the english too.
I've seen a lot of people with that ship think it has battleship armor and run headlong into a group of enemy ships just to be immediately get annihilated
these videos show how large and powerful the Royal navy was compared to now, there was just endless cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships to call upon
I just recently bought the Graf Spee and I'm having such a blast with it. Yes sure it's very squishy but just like British cruisers, the graf spee get a heal which helps alot keeping you afloat. And those guns... damn, they will administer such a paddlin' of epic proportions to any cruiser who foolishly give you even a slight broadside to shoot at especially if you can sneak up on them and get an alpha strike from close range. You can even do a respectable amount of sniping damage to battleships if you can get into a secure firing position, but mark Jingle's advice: Do not get into a direct pissing match with battleships, as you will get blown out of the water, very quickly
Just noticed that conceptually in-game the Spee looks like the Yubari: a not-bb not completely cr and a not-dd not completely cr. That said the Spee is just tricky while the Yubari is underpowered.
Dunkerque - French Cannot into Botes Scharnhorst - A battleship with tiny guns, but still a battleship. Kongo - Still technically a battleship, if only because of how large it was (and how, after refits, it didn't really have cruiser-esque armor).
HerrStein By the outbreak of WW2 the concepts of battlecruiser and battleship had merged in the concept of the fast battleship... technological advance made possible to build BBs as fast as pre-war BCs like Hood but with armor comparable to pre-war BBs (Bismarck and Iowa are clear examples) So during WW2 the difference between new/rebuild fast battleships and battlecruisers wasn't as clear as in WW1
Mighty jingles would you ever consider making audio books of naval history. I'm sure I speak for many of your minions when I say history with jingles is the best videos on RUclips.
I would have thought the classification of battlecruisers would depend on their size. Graf Spee was big for a cruiser but nowhere near battleship displacement, whereas the Hood was significantly larger than the King George V (1939) battleships, and Renown displaced more than twice as much as Graf Spee, even before the former's refit. RN battlecruisers will surely be classified as battleships in-game.
Hood no longer was a battle cruiser during WW2. They might have called it a BC, but with BB guns and BB armor, it clearly was a battleship. It was refitted heavily after all.
ive been playing a couple of games in the spee after grinding all the exp for it and i must say it is actually quite a fun ship. the torps allow for a nice "surprise" in close quarters engagements and the guns are more than adequate for pummeling cruisers and dd's (with he loaded as its he is just pure lethal.. 20% fire chance) and when facing BB ive found i can bounce them at around 10km depending on the nation. but at close range unless they dont know about the torps you probably wont win a brawl. still in my opinion its a very fun ship that was worth the grind to get it for free.
When you take a look at BC, all of the British ones are armed with six or eight 15in/42cal, the American Alaska's were armed with nine 12in/50cal, the purposed Netherlands Project 1047 would have had nine 11in/54.5cal while the Japanese Kongo's were originally classed as BC, later as Fast Battleships, they also had the B-64 design with nine 12.2in/50cal while the B-65 design had six 14in/45cal. The Americans also had the Lexington class with eight 16in/50cal main armament. Now ships with 13in or better guns are more in the battleship category, those with 12.5in or less guns are much more in the cruiser category. Even the older American Tennessee class Armored Cruisers had 10in main guns in two twin turrets.
I figure the British Battle Cruisers will be assembled into a second "Heavy" cruiser line, more heavy for guns rather than armor. This will also allow for a home for the few actual "Heavy Cruisers" that the British made. The existing British Cruisers are decidedly light Cruisers.
Does anyone else find the Graf Spee hard to citadel with cruisers? even broadside on I get none when I get regular citadels against all other cruisers. Meanwhile I have lost count of how many times my tier 6 & 7 tier cruisers keep getting citadeled through the bow by the damn Graf Spee.
203mm and up guns have no problems ( Aoba is inaccurate, though ) but 152mm shells seem to struggle, it's citadel is also really low in the water it seems. It's probably better to spam it with HE if you have 152mm shells and switch to AP only if you're within 5km. I'd advice doing the same with Aoba if you're feeling like you have to kill it, but honestly, Aoba shouldn't get close to anything with guns this caliber, it's a tier 6 Penscola in that regard.
Easier said than done since I have been getting at lest 4 Graf Spee's on the enemy every match in my Aoba and then BB's on top my lifespam within the Aoba's gun range keeps getting shorter with all the power creep (Leander's stealth firing from smoke is also pissing me off).
Uh, Jingles, WoWs has had battlecruisers for a while. Myogi and Amagi are both battlecruisers (and Kongo should be as well, at least before hull upgrades, but I don't know if WG decided to be at all historically accurate there). Historically, the Japanese built four battlecruisers (the Kongo-class, though Kongo herself was built in Britain). They also laid down the Amagi-class of battlecuisers before the Washington Naval Treaty hit, and Amagi and Akagi were slated to be converted into carriers. Then a huge earthquake happened, Amagi was wrecked, and so Kaga (the least completed Tosa-class battleship available) was chosen alongside Akagi to be converted into carriers. The US, obviously, had the Lexington-class of battlecuisers, two of which were converted into carriers after the treaty hit. But the Alaska-class (late in the war) were completed as battlecuisers.
I fired 2 full broadsides with my Bismarck into a Graf Spee yesterday at about 4km range and he took only minimal damage. I realise this may have been some freakish bad luck on my part but I sure don't have problems like that against a Cleveland. Overall I find the firepower and survivability of the Graf Spee pretty nice and I already had some very good battles in it. I do think it takes a little time to get used to playing it - my 1st couple of battles I didn't use it to it's best for sure.
I got the ship in the campaign for it over the holidays. Now, I wouldn't say that I am a very good player, maybe average or a bit above average, but I really like the ship. I had multiple 100k+ dmg games in it. The guns are very good for a cruiser, even being able to do damage to BBs with their good AP potential and I also like that the secondary armament is good and I can't tell you how many times the excellent torps it has helped me, one game I was fighting a colorado and evaded his salvo and torped him and did a shit ton of damage. A lot of people dislike the ship though, it just seems to suit me personally, and of course it is one of the more famous German ships so thats also a big plus for me.
I am very very surprised that nobody have mentioned the secondary armament of this ship.. 8x1 150 mm and 3x2 100 mm guns... combine that with torpedos, and hydro accustic search and its amazing for flushing out destroyers, cruisers, and you can brawl with battleships even (of course knowing you will trade quite a bit of hp with them). I only played 1 match so far with it, but it is an amazing fun ship. 114k dmg for the first match i played, 7 torpedo hits, 20-30 secondary hits, and a few citadels with the main guns. Took out a New Mexico and a Cleveland from full hp, and took few chunks out of a schors before i got friendly torpedoed by a dd on my team.
I would assume that, given the fact that WarGaming has announced multiple tech trees for many nations (the most recent being the Soviet Destroyers), that we will see a British Battlecruiser line. The reason is that they don't really fit as Battleships, because of their general lack of armor (compared to the standard set by the already existing RN BB, HMS Warspite), but they also don't fit as light cruisers, since they don't have the RoF. Perhaps we'll see some more partial split trees for Battlecruisers and Fast Battleships with the IJN, as well.
Re-watched this after 2 years, I miss this 'historical' type of videos.
That's the main reason why I'm watching this.
@@nathanfrazier8525 I regularly go back, even to the very first video. Mainly going by playlist (Bring back random acts of violence! "we want violence")
I still believe I'm the last person to comment on hus first video too...
(don't you dare go back and post on it now just because I said that xD you can reply to some comment instead xD)
Same
He had a really good one recently where he talked about British and US CV design philosophy
Pep I completely agree. I really wish he'd make more of these.
Does anyone know where i can find Jingles original video on the USS Massachusetts? Please & Thank you
my first ship model ever.
Military History Visualized hi love your channel
didn't expect to see you here!
thx... sürprise it's me Mario ehhmm Military History Visualized.
yay! it's Mario History Visualized!
I have a USS Texas model :3
no offense but the captain of this ship deserves a medal. yeah sure he was a Nazi but come on making sure the crews of sunken ships were in life boats and even sent distressed signals on their behalf is a very honorable thing to do.
i agree man
Bryan Nieves While en route for Montevideo the Graf Spee found a merchant ship... Langsdorff send a message to the Ajax and the Achilles and told them "Please pick up the lifeboats of the cargo ship", then he ordered the merchant ship to stop.
The captain of the cargo didn't... and Langsdorff decided to don't open fire on a civil ship with the crew still onboard.
He was an example that even during war it was still possible to be humans and do the honorable thing
+Bryan Nieves
Are you sure he was a Nazi? He was a humanist and I don't think that he was a party member. The Kriegsmarine wasn't the SS.
His raids didn't cost a single civilians live! And he thought to protect the lives of his crew and when hew had been trolled by the sneaky Brittish into sinking his ship.
Even Brittish sailors were present at his funeral, after he took his live lieing on the flag of his ship.
It's a shitty world because the realy good people die so fast while horrible persons mircaulously survive the awfull deadly situations.
We love the Graf Spee! It is a Legend. I don't wonder her beeing in the Game at all. Althou it's a failed concept as German engineers realized later to build battlecruizers by sacrificing BB guns for CL speed and keeping BB armor.
Hans Langsdorff was not a Nazi in any way, rather like much of the German navy in WWII, and when he shot himself he wrapped his body in the old WWI German naval ensign first, an act no Nazi would have done.
No offence, but just because a person served for Nazi Germany didn't make them a Nazi. A true Nazi was exactly that - part of the Nazi Party. Many could be found in the SS divisions. Others were just simply military men who were fighting for their country. A few notables I can mention are Kaplt. z. S. Engelbert Endrass, commander of U-46, Feldwebel Kurt Knispel of the 503rd Schwerepanzer-Abtielung, and of course, Rommel and Donitz.
I don't mean to be rude, it just annoys me when people blur the line between a German and a Nazi...some people don't deserve to be branded with that title.
Graf Spee aka Scharnhorst on a diet.
And still slower than Scharnhorst... I guess she overdid the diet.
"Mini-me."
Same size guns, but a couple more.
Spee is completely garbage in Blitz, even Krasny krym is better than this useless tub the spread is soo bad.
@@tropicthndr That's German ships in general in both regular an blitz.
I can't say why, but listening to The Mighty Jingles talk history makes it that much more enjoyable. I cannot say if it's the fact his British, or the tone of his voice, but personally I can't seem to get enough of these types of his videos. Thanks for taking the time to give the history of the ships and everything else... a Canadian fan!
I love it when you do a video like this: reviewing a ship (or tank or aircraft) from a historical perspective as well as evaluating it in-game.
"Slap the shit out of his citadel," is now my favorite Jingles quote. Thank you sir.
What a waste of a nice ship and a good captain. But I guess that is what most of WWII can be classified as in the end....
Unfortunately, wars are rarely won by being nice…
That is also true, but there is also a lot of needless destruction: For instance the scuttling of dozens of German U-boats after the war, instead of putting them in museums where they belong.
Cobra6 Gaming That would've cost a lot of money, and at the time, Britain was very, very broke. It took decades for the British economy to fully recover from WW2. The simple truth is that nobody could afford to preserve much, although everyone would've loved it if HMS Warspite had been preserved. We're honestly lucky that HMS Victory and Warrior are still around.
There is no excuse for breaking up Warspite. It more than deserved to be saved as a museum ship. I could understand HMS Vanguard due to her massive size and the amount of resources in her, but not Warspite.
Yeah I understand that to a point, but there is a very important point: Once you sink these U-boats they are gone forever, also for future generations. Is the short term problem: "Not enough money" worth the long term loss? I say it wasn't.
Langsdorff was a true gentleman. Admired by the men he captured, and no one was killed on the ships he sank! An ex Brit. MN seamen.
Jim Crawford We’re ALL ex seamen...
My grandfather told me he could hear the cannons from the shore.
Ken cool. Where was he stationed. And was he in the German navy?
@@aydenkoros436 uff
@@aydenkoros436 what if he was just living in the country ?
She doesn't play like a cruiser at all which is why she feels so good to me. I have 53% win rate in world of warships with close to 3000 games. But with nearly 150 battles in the graf spee I have a 65% win rate in her. As a battleship player her accuracy seems fantastic to me. Your right your land about 2 shells at 16km but that's a 33% hit rate. Her torp angles are fantastic probably around 150 degrees per side. She can fire forward with just a slight turn then turn back and launch the other side or continue to close in to say 3-4 km from a battleship and as it frantically turns to avoid the first torps you turn out and fire the second batch at point blank from your ass. Angled she can tank T5 and T6 battleships and do unstoppable torpedo runs. The secondaries do surprise me the range sucks so I would never do a secondary build but I end up setting a lot of fires per game which means I spend a lot of time under 4 km to enemy ships.
Just got kraken on it this afternoon. I find the ship to be a cash register 3 games and ill add a million credits to my account. The hydro I ran for 50 games or so but in the end I traded that in for defensive fire. I can add vigilance to the captain with my last 3 points but even with out it I fell very safe from torps just don't chase DDs. It was carriers that were punishing me before but with 2 fighters that last 6 mins and with defensive fire and focus firing I am able to defend myself form air planes better then in most ships. Obviously were not talking 700 + damage a second I get from my tricked out north Carolina's AA but good enough to knock 10-15 planes out of the sky which often results in them moving to easier targets. I had a clan flip out on me last night in a game the carrier freaked when his torp group was entirely shot down and scored no hits he swore like crazy at me then his bb buddy came at me and found out how dangerous this ship is at close ranges which made him even more upset when I sank him. And it was even sweeter this game since the first savo of my game I fired at range at a Omaha and she sunk instantly from full health giving me devastating strike and first kill.
I agree with you this ship isn't for every one of even most players as I see a lot of bad players in it but in the right hands I am finding it to be a fantastic seal clubber. And routinely see 80-100k on good games and 40k when I am up tiered to t8s.
I understand why you condense the history of the ships in newer videos and talk about them at the start of the battle but I do miss this style of videos where it’s a short history of the ship followed by it in action
Hey, I live in Nebraska! Thanks for the shoutout Jingles, you've warmed a loyal minions heart. ❤️
I always love the little historical rundowns attached to these vids. Especially when they tell that even on the wrong side of a conflict, there are still gentlemen to be found.
Jingles, you are very good at narrating these historical events.
Please, keep it up!
Your war story narratives are a joy sir. As a retired Coasty I recognize your obvious understanding of life at sea and the implications for the crew and their ship. More of these would be welcome. ETC USCG (Ret) sends.
The turrets are not that slow to turn. You can make a "full turn" while keeping the guns on target ... unlike battleships.
Muck006 Tirpitz can do that.
That's more to say about the Tirpitz's guns being quicker than the average Battlship gun than the Spee's guns being slower than the average Cruiser's. The Spee's turrets traverse faster than the Cleveland, Aoba, Pensacola, Myoko, New Orleans and Mogami.
NC can do that... Iowa can do that... battleships can track their turrets very well. Particularly the Americans
I would argue that, through my experience, Graf Spee is also incredibly maneuverable, especially when you equip the speed flag and the Steering Gears Mod. 2 upgrade. This means that, while you do have to expose an uncomfortable amount of Broadside to get a full salvo off, you don't have to expose it near as long as, say, a battleship. You can make Clevelands rage in chat by just juking around and making all their shots miss, and battleships, unless they're watching incredibly close and have their timing down to extreme precision, are almost never going to get more than one penetrating hit on you.
With your hydro on, it also makes you almost immune to everything but carrier-launched torpedoes, which means that you're gonna be pissing-off destroyer captains by putting big hits into them (1 full penetration deals over 2k damage) while they try to get their torpedoes away, and you just dodge them.
Thanks for taking the time for the history! That really gives meat to the content. Thanks for that.
Jingles you forget the Spee has a 20% fire chance with those guns. Very easy to set BBs on fire.
I love your history lessons, even when its not as much about the facts (knew them) than the delivery. Thanks.
The Graf Spee was more like a WWII armored cruiser or a British battlecruiser.
At 18:28 he wasn't checking the torps for an angle, he was using it to adjust his main battery aim.
Or to force the enemy to turn into him, setting up the main guns for the kill? Either eat the torps or the 230's, buddy.
The historical lessons are always the best parts of your videos, Jingles.
Naval Museum at Devonport, NZ has a size comparison of the shells fired by all ships in that engagement. Main gun shells from the other three ships all fit inside a main gun shell from the Graf Spee, with PLENTY of room to spare.
Just Purchased The Graf Spee On Legends For The Console. Different Beast Due To Cpt Mechanics....Useful Information Here Non The Less. TY Jingles
Jingles, the history of the ship was awesome, thanks for relating that history for us!
I love your historical commentary! Thanks for your service, too!
Much respect to the captain of Graf Spee, who took the decision to save the crew, but cleared his honor Japanese style for not attempting a brave and potentially suicidal breakthrough the British.
Captain's name was Hand Landorff
When he shot himself, he wrapped himself in the flag of the imperial German navy, as one last insult to Hitler
Eddie Rudolph That's completely false. He was lying on the Graf Spee's battle ensign. The final letter he wrote to his family and superiors read: "I can now only prove by my death that the fighting services of the Third Reich are ready to die for the honour of the flag. I alone bear the responsibility for scuttling the panzerschiff Admiral Graf Spee. I am happy to pay with my life for any possible reflection on the honour of the flag. I shall face my fate with firm faith in the cause and the future of the nation and of my Führer.'". He was loyal to Hitler to the last.
@@MrThelegodudes Still, safety of his crew came first then the rest.
Japanese style? Did he torture and rape pows and civilians Japanese style as well?
I played the Battle of the River Plate on Atlantic Fleet and she destroyed Exeter with her first salvo. I hate this monster of a ship.
That is a great scenario. The Exeter has to stay alive long enough for the other two to close in to make their guns effective and to get torpedoes off. "Request Permission Revise List of Spares"
GodjiraPlays That's exactly what I tried to do, charge with the lights and keep Exeter at range, but like I said one extremely lucky shot from Graff Spee and she exploded.
I just wish WoWs was more like Atlantic Fleet where you could play out historical scenarios without having to drive around islands.
GodjiraPlays You're just not going to get that in an MMO though are you.
"lucky" ...it wasn't lucky, it was well aimed :P
i LOVE history with Jingles! I think me and MANY other people would be fine with a few sort history videos month! Common Jingles!
I wish Jingles would bring back these historically narrated videos. I think everyone would collectively appreciate this format MORE than just gameplay.
Jingles, panzerschiff was the german equivalent of the American large cruiser designation, of which Saint Luis is an example. In 1940 the Deutschland class was reclassified by Germany as heavy cruisers. This is why Graf spee is in the cruiser line instead of the battleship line like battlecruisers myogi, kongo, ishizuchi, and amagi.
Heavily armed cruiser, not lightly armored battleship.
Jingles really needs to make a show call story time with Jingles because honestly that is my favorite part of these videos.
hey jingles been watching ur videos for the past 2 years i really like your content like when you talk about the history of the ships its awesome love to hear back from you :)
Jingles, i really like your World of Warships Videos! Always looking forward to them. Keep up the good work!
I play mine like a heavy cruiser and it seems to work just fine.
Good to see actual history introduced. Good job jingles.
I'd much rather have Jingles as my history teacher than my current teacher!
Myogi, amagi, ishizuchi, and the other battlecruisers are in battleship line. Deutschland class were reclassified as heavy cruisers by germany before WWII, so shes in the heavy cruiser line :)
Man i miss these long history type vids
I recently started playing her, and I had come to the same conclusion as you did in the video before watching. Graf Spee is above all else a cruiser killer, and I learned the hard way that sticking around and supporting your allies is actually not the way to go in this ship.
FYI according to "Hitler's lost battleship" (available on YT) the Spee's commander made a mistake by carrying night exercises in waters that could have potentially had regular traffic - thus a norvegian trade ship spotted the lights and called the Brits via telegraph.
Battlecruisers in the game are classed as Battleships, like the Kongo-class (later designated as fast battleships) and Amagi. It could also be argued that the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau are what the Germans would consider Battlecruisers; battleship armor, but lighter guns and higher speed, but the Germans retired the designation of Battle Cruisers after WW1, only the Royal Navy kept the designation in use for WW2.
Jingles;
Nice linked video about the USS Massachusetts. I live about 35 miles from there and stop by yearly. Its a great site. In addition to BB 59, Battleship Cove contains DD-850 (Gearing Class) Joseph P. Kennedy, SS-298 (Balao Class) Lionfish and both Elco and Higgins PT boats. Usually there is some "old timers" around who served on one of the ships/boats and are glad to talk about the life.
Next time you hit NY City, its about 2.5-3 hours away by car.
I have the Graf Spee and it is one of my top 3 favs to play. Love this thing, its fun and its a citadel machine against Cruisers!
I've found that the Graf Spee suits my playstyle very well, what you need to do in this ship is changing targets poke at everything that presents a good shot and then get out of there. And the guns are definitely accurate enough to nail dds at medium range
But the Germans operated 4 classes of battlecruiser in ww1 though
Von Der tan Moltke Seidlitz and the derfflinger.
One thing to note when comparing the Graf Spee to the Scharnhorst is that at longer range, the Scharnhorst retains penetration and velocity better due to its heavier shells. at 16 km, the Scharnhorst shells will beat the Graf Spee shells by 0.5 seconds. The Scharnhorst can do penetration damage at longer range more reliably than the Graf Spee can.
I'd like to note that the hit on the oil purification plant was effectively mortal. The Graf Spee had giant diesel engines, which could not run on untreated oil. According to the reports I've read, the ship had less than 24 hours worth of useable fuel left.
got mine with the G F mission and yeah she is a good ship once you have worked out how she behaves :) I feel she is best played in a division and lots of communication with your allies too . but she is a lot of fun :)
The Graf Spee being in the cruiser line makes sense because her displacement puts her there. WWII cruiser displacement requirements were between 6,000 - 19,000 tons.
Technically though she falls into the Armored Cruiser ship type designation because of her capital caliber guns which was a primary requirement for ACRs. Granted Graf Spee would have been a WWII modern version of the older Pre Dreadnought era ACRs. She'd be a fun DD and cruiser hunter.
I was hoping they'd split the cruiser and capital lines but WG said they didn't have any plans to do so. Maybe that'll change later.
Jingles love when you do ship reviews. I love this ship.
I figure ships like Hood and Renown would be classified as battleships. Graf Spee mounts an 11-in gun battery, which is arguably very low caliber for a battleship. However, Hood and Renown were armed with 15-in guns, which are somewhat large caliber (same as the Bismarck's, and that's a _Tier 8_ battleship).
Hmm Jingles you forgot the Kraken scene :O
Although it's got cruiser levels of armour this actually gives it an edge in certain circumstances. It means that BB calibre shells are more likely to simply over pen for 10% damage instead of a full pen damage roll. I've only played a handful of games in mine but during my first ever game I got just short of 100k damage and completely trolled the Scharnhorst on the enemy team eventually sinking him with torps. It's the definition of a glass cannon.
I came up with a AU were the Graf Spee was its own class and had two 15 inch Bismarck turrets.
I always went with the assumption that Battle/Large cruisers and panzerschiffe would be placed as side branches that connect the Cruiser and battleship lines, and a few special cases like the _Lexington_-class battlecruiser designs that connect the battleship and Carrier lines
It makes good sense for this ship to be a cruiser. The Kongo is a battlecruiser that fits in the battleship line since it is battleship sized. Graf Spee is very much a cruiser size ship and it has a lot fewer guns than a battleship should, Ok the Myogi has only 6 guns, but they're bigger than the guns on the Graf Spee, and it's only a tier 4.
I love this ship, of course I am also a big fan of reckless aggression :) Something to do with being a retired Marine I am sure :)
By German classification, Graf Spee is a cruiser. German battlecruisers, unlike the British ones, were rather heavily armored. British CCs were about Speed and Firepower, sacrificing Armor. German CCs were about Armor and Speed, sacrificng gun caliber. Take the SMS Seydlitz, the pounding she took would have sunk the Graf Spee several times over.
British CCs would likely be slotted into the BB tree, as there's precedence there, Kongo and Amagi were both battlecruisers.
Any non-WoW players here just for the history?
Aye!
yes
Thanks for the review and history lesson Jingles. I have just got my Graf and am really looking forward to sinking lots of cruisers. Hopefully...
Jingles, with the new commander skills, you get the concealment skill putting the Graf's detectability at about 11km. That makes this much more survivable, because between reloads, your bloom will reduce to 11km again, and off the mini map.
Hey Jingles, I read in a german book (written in the 70s, had it from a library, sadly don't remember the name)about the battle of the plate that the british intelligence redirected allied merchant ships to return and then leave this port in Uruguay every 23 hours so they could get the blockade in place before the graf spee could run for argentina or brazil.
According to this book it was forbidden for a warship of an opposing faction to leave port if a merchant ship of the other faction had left port less than 24 hours ago. This explains also why the graf spee didn't leave in those 72 hours of maximum stay after minor repairs before the blockade was ready. The graf spee was trapped.
The captain, who had strict orders to break through the blockade knew it was a suicide mission. Because he rated the life of his crewmembers higher than the order to sacrifice them in a hopeless battle, he gave order to scuttle his ship. But he also knew that he would be marked as a traitor so he decided to end his life himself so the crew couldn't be held accountable by the autorities. He sacrificed himself for the life of his crew.
He was a hero to his men and held onto his humanity in this time of great inhumanity.
Hope you see this comment and shed some light on the bravery of this man. He would deserve it. o7
The story of the Graf Spee is my favourite war story of them all. Captain Langsdorf really showes that not all germans during WW2 were bloodthirsty Nazis.
Thats why i bought this thing as soon as it launched and it just happens to fit my agressive playstyle pretty well. One of the strongest Points of it are it's torps that get underestimated so often by the enemy.
I love the concept of the graf spee, it's a tiny cruiser with battleship guns!
Um Mighty Jingles I played amatch last night with the Graf Spee and faced two destoryers alone a sank them. the secondaries rock on this. though i did give it a disperssion modulce. to help accuracy. it was a double strike as well.
It is a bit hard to play with it, yes. I did once sink tier 7 battleship in less than 2 km distance by citadelling it and then torping it with all 4 torpedoes, he was full hp, and then very fast, he wasn't XD
Heres how I get a good deal of fighting without being blown up by BB's on the Graf Spee:
At the beginning of a battle, I only travel at half speed, this allows me to decide where to go without being rushed.
By traveling at half speed, I get to fire shots at enemy ships without being a major target.
I only go full speed if there are a few ships left or if necessary.
I absolutely love this ship. Most games I sink at least 2 or 3 ships, usually cruisers, and often battleships with suicide torpedo runs.
Ty Jingles!
I am pretty sure Langsdorf had no permission to scuttle her, he was supposed to break out.
He shot himself because his officers talked him out of going down with her because his leadership was still required to secure the fate of his crew. Only after that did he symbolically "went down with her".
Langsdorf also was no Nazi who made sure to follow the rules fo cruiser-war, as Jingles noted and was respected for this by the english too.
I've seen a lot of people with that ship think it has battleship armor and run headlong into a group of enemy ships just to be immediately get annihilated
these videos show how large and powerful the Royal navy was compared to now, there was just endless cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships to call upon
nah, this ship is absolutely awesome and 65-100k dmg per battle is ok for it
6:30 That's actually a Russian destroyer, Admiral Ushakov, Sovremennyy-class.
Gotta love story time with Jingles. You should narrate a book. Seriously.
I just recently bought the Graf Spee and I'm having such a blast with it. Yes sure it's very squishy but just like British cruisers, the graf spee get a heal which helps alot keeping you afloat. And those guns... damn, they will administer such a paddlin' of epic proportions to any cruiser who foolishly give you even a slight broadside to shoot at especially if you can sneak up on them and get an alpha strike from close range. You can even do a respectable amount of sniping damage to battleships if you can get into a secure firing position, but mark Jingle's advice: Do not get into a direct pissing match with battleships, as you will get blown out of the water, very quickly
Jingles, please be my new history teacher!
Just noticed that conceptually in-game the Spee looks like the Yubari: a not-bb not completely cr and a not-dd not completely cr. That said the Spee is just tricky while the Yubari is underpowered.
"if we ever see battlecruisers in the game" ???...Dunkerque, Scharnhorst, Kongo,
Kongo was reclassified and rebuilt as a Battleship in the 30s, so its not a battlecruiser in the game
actually it's classification is "fast battleship"...which sound an aweful lot like a Battlecruiser to me
Dunkerque - French Cannot into Botes
Scharnhorst - A battleship with tiny guns, but still a battleship.
Kongo - Still technically a battleship, if only because of how large it was (and how, after refits, it didn't really have cruiser-esque armor).
Battlecruisers don't have cruiser armor, for example the Von der Tann, WW1 BC had 250mm belt. Hood, armor belt up to 305mm
HerrStein By the outbreak of WW2 the concepts of battlecruiser and battleship had merged in the concept of the fast battleship... technological advance made possible to build BBs as fast as pre-war BCs like Hood but with armor comparable to pre-war BBs (Bismarck and Iowa are clear examples)
So during WW2 the difference between new/rebuild fast battleships and battlecruisers wasn't as clear as in WW1
Mighty jingles would you ever consider making audio books of naval history. I'm sure I speak for many of your minions when I say history with jingles is the best videos on RUclips.
I would have thought the classification of battlecruisers would depend on their size. Graf Spee was big for a cruiser but nowhere near battleship displacement, whereas the Hood was significantly larger than the King George V (1939) battleships, and Renown displaced more than twice as much as Graf Spee, even before the former's refit. RN battlecruisers will surely be classified as battleships in-game.
Hood no longer was a battle cruiser during WW2. They might have called it a BC, but with BB guns and BB armor, it clearly was a battleship. It was refitted heavily after all.
Yay thanks for the review Jingles!
ive been playing a couple of games in the spee after grinding all the exp for it and i must say it is actually quite a fun ship. the torps allow for a nice "surprise" in close quarters engagements and the guns are more than adequate for pummeling cruisers and dd's (with he loaded as its he is just pure lethal.. 20% fire chance) and when facing BB ive found i can bounce them at around 10km depending on the nation. but at close range unless they dont know about the torps you probably wont win a brawl. still in my opinion its a very fun ship that was worth the grind to get it for free.
When you take a look at BC, all of the British ones are armed with six or eight 15in/42cal, the American Alaska's were armed with nine 12in/50cal, the purposed Netherlands Project 1047 would have had nine 11in/54.5cal while the Japanese Kongo's were originally classed as BC, later as Fast Battleships, they also had the B-64 design with nine 12.2in/50cal while the B-65 design had six 14in/45cal. The Americans also had the Lexington class with eight 16in/50cal main armament. Now ships with 13in or better guns are more in the battleship category, those with 12.5in or less guns are much more in the cruiser category. Even the older American Tennessee class Armored Cruisers had 10in main guns in two twin turrets.
Great review Jingles!
I figure the British Battle Cruisers will be assembled into a second "Heavy" cruiser line, more heavy for guns rather than armor. This will also allow for a home for the few actual "Heavy Cruisers" that the British made. The existing British Cruisers are decidedly light Cruisers.
Dammit Jingles wheres the Kraken Unleashed
Thanks Mate was very entertianing show today keep up the good work Mate :-)
Does anyone else find the Graf Spee hard to citadel with cruisers? even broadside on I get none when I get regular citadels against all other cruisers. Meanwhile I have lost count of how many times my tier 6 & 7 tier cruisers keep getting citadeled through the bow by the damn Graf Spee.
I citadel her just fine with my Norleans AP, but then she's two tiers up so.
203mm and up guns have no problems ( Aoba is inaccurate, though ) but 152mm shells seem to struggle, it's citadel is also really low in the water it seems. It's probably better to spam it with HE if you have 152mm shells and switch to AP only if you're within 5km. I'd advice doing the same with Aoba if you're feeling like you have to kill it, but honestly, Aoba shouldn't get close to anything with guns this caliber, it's a tier 6 Penscola in that regard.
Easier said than done since I have been getting at lest 4 Graf Spee's on the enemy every match in my Aoba and then BB's on top my lifespam within the Aoba's gun range keeps getting shorter with all the power creep (Leander's stealth firing from smoke is also pissing me off).
Aoba has always been pretty mediocre tier for tier. I know your suffering.
You got citadelled through the bow by battleship guns, working as intended I guess?
Loved the history lesson at the start, Jingles.
Uh, Jingles, WoWs has had battlecruisers for a while. Myogi and Amagi are both battlecruisers (and Kongo should be as well, at least before hull upgrades, but I don't know if WG decided to be at all historically accurate there).
Historically, the Japanese built four battlecruisers (the Kongo-class, though Kongo herself was built in Britain). They also laid down the Amagi-class of battlecuisers before the Washington Naval Treaty hit, and Amagi and Akagi were slated to be converted into carriers. Then a huge earthquake happened, Amagi was wrecked, and so Kaga (the least completed Tosa-class battleship available) was chosen alongside Akagi to be converted into carriers.
The US, obviously, had the Lexington-class of battlecuisers, two of which were converted into carriers after the treaty hit. But the Alaska-class (late in the war) were completed as battlecuisers.
The Graf Spee also appears in High School Fleet (Haifuri), the name of the number is W207 :D
I fired 2 full broadsides with my Bismarck into a Graf Spee yesterday at about 4km range and he took only minimal damage. I realise this may have been some freakish bad luck on my part but I sure don't have problems like that against a Cleveland. Overall I find the firepower and survivability of the Graf Spee pretty nice and I already had some very good battles in it.
I do think it takes a little time to get used to playing it - my 1st couple of battles I didn't use it to it's best for sure.
I got the ship in the campaign for it over the holidays. Now, I wouldn't say that I am a very good player, maybe average or a bit above average, but I really like the ship. I had multiple 100k+ dmg games in it. The guns are very good for a cruiser, even being able to do damage to BBs with their good AP potential and I also like that the secondary armament is good and I can't tell you how many times the excellent torps it has helped me, one game I was fighting a colorado and evaded his salvo and torped him and did a shit ton of damage. A lot of people dislike the ship though, it just seems to suit me personally, and of course it is one of the more famous German ships so thats also a big plus for me.
I absolutely love Story time with Jingles!
I am very very surprised that nobody have mentioned the secondary armament of this ship.. 8x1 150 mm and 3x2 100 mm guns... combine that with torpedos, and hydro accustic search and its amazing for flushing out destroyers, cruisers, and you can brawl with battleships even (of course knowing you will trade quite a bit of hp with them). I only played 1 match so far with it, but it is an amazing fun ship. 114k dmg for the first match i played, 7 torpedo hits, 20-30 secondary hits, and a few citadels with the main guns. Took out a New Mexico and a Cleveland from full hp, and took few chunks out of a schors before i got friendly torpedoed by a dd on my team.
I would assume that, given the fact that WarGaming has announced multiple tech trees for many nations (the most recent being the Soviet Destroyers), that we will see a British Battlecruiser line. The reason is that they don't really fit as Battleships, because of their general lack of armor (compared to the standard set by the already existing RN BB, HMS Warspite), but they also don't fit as light cruisers, since they don't have the RoF. Perhaps we'll see some more partial split trees for Battlecruisers and Fast Battleships with the IJN, as well.