I am sorry‥ but I am afraid that this black and white so-discernment view of the force game is rigged from the start… in other words, your view this presentation that is discussed, sees The Force as too far 1-Dimension black and white. 👎 If that kind of black and white pulp-fic view-based judgement is that easy, then why The Jedi would easily see all those follies of making these kind of decisions that a dark-sider would have make that will surely will lead The Jedi only to some sort of a dark-sided disaster that only lead The Jedi 3 time to there own Jedi purge, such example as The first Jedi Purge, throughout the Star Wars′ history?
Regard Gray Jedi argument. Grey Jedi are most of all Jedi! All Light Sith were heretics, who despite practicing art of Dark Side, come to same conclusion as Jedi. What actually make them not a Dark Side users anymore. Generally term Gray Jedi refereed to three categories: 1) Members of Jedi Order, who disagree with the council. But still fallow they commands. Example of that was Qui Gon Jin. And it is worth to remind that it was because he was Padawan of Dooku. But despite that he stay loyal to the Jedi Order. 2) Ex-Jedi who refused to abandon using The Force. Jedi Order didn't like them, but until they didn't do anything suspicious, they couldn't really do much with that. Example of this type was Ashoka Tano. 3) Jedi who know some Dark Side techniques. Sometimes it happen that Jedi learn how to do that. They typically refuse to use them, until absolutely nesesery. But they still could. Examples: Mace Windu and Luke Skywalker. 4) Gray Paladins. Were not real Gray Jedi, but ancient group of Jedi Warriors operating more as mercenaries. For example using the blasters. Anyway. The crime of the Jedi during movie era, was that they condemn Jedi Sentinels and many of them confused fallowing rules of the Order, with fallowing will of the Force. Real Jedi Sentinels like Mitra Surik, use powers what were in a way close to Dark Side. They for example could track Force users with limited use of Force Drain. Jedi Healers commonly were also doing that, transferring life-force. Jedi didn't understand or trust them, as such most Sentinels were delegated to Agricultural duties. Han Solo, who was extremely powerful in use of Force Sense, but he was straight ignored by the Order (yes, he was Jedi Sentinel). It is why Jedi Temple Guards could not detect Sith who infiltrated them. Anyway, there is a reason why most Jedi who survived were Sentinels or Gray Jedi. Obi Wan despite being born Guardian, also start questioning rules of the Jedi what saved his life. For example Grevious was extremely vulnerable to the Force. Yet he slain many Jedi, because they in hubris challenged him on the sword fight. At one point Obi Wan start simply using Force Push and blasters against him and so he did win.
In the galactic criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: the galactic police and investigators who find crime, and the attorneys and senators who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories…BUM BUM!
Mariska Hagartay? She's Jayne Mansfield's daughter, and Jayne? She was a proud member of the Church of Satan and paramour to High Priest Anton Szandor LaVey
I still think the Jedi should've allowed romantic attachments, yes Anakin's love for Padme was inherently unhealthy but I still think having a skilled couples counselor on site would have fixed it, also just generally having therapists on site
Also speaking of falling to the dark side, wouldn't kicking someone out of the Order for getting married or encouraging them to leave increase the risk of falling to the dark side? Like all they've ever known is the Order and suddenly that's gone and with it all the alleged supports the Jedi have, wouldn't it make more sense to have Jedi in romantic relationships stay in the Order so they could be coached on how to handle them instead of being thrown out to the wolves?
@@m310grassnot sure how many have actually been kicked out specifically due to their relationships. I think it’s typically treated as more of a taboo, or a practice of detachment, and so they advise against close relationships. It is, however, unavoidable, because attachment comes anyway, even to the most devout of Jedi(evidenced fully in one line: “you were my brother, Anakin!”)
Luke's New Order did allow families but it certainly had its own share of problems that went along with that. As well as it's own fair number of fallen Jedi and Sith Lords.
The reason it was unhealthy is because Anakin didn't know what he was doing and had to figure all of this out himself. That plus the stress of wartime, feeling like his own family doesn't trust him, and grooming from Palpatine and yeah.
I disagree with the attachment issue significantly because of Luke Skywalker, his Order while flawed like any order in Jedi history proved it was still possible to train older force sensitives to be a force for good while still being able to have families and relationships.
The Jedi forbade relationships not because relationships were a problem. They forbade it as an extra precaution against the risk of attachment. You could compare it to building a fence ten feet away from the edge of a cliff, so that if someone leaned against it and it fell, the person wouldn’t immediately fall over the edge of the cliff. To your point, yes, relationships and love are all possible while staying firmly in the Light side. But the Jedi of Luke’s Order had to be extra cautious that their love did not become attachment. The difference between Luke’s Jedi Order and the former Jedi Order here boils down to different approaches to the same problem. One built a fence ten feet away from the edge, the other gave everybody cliff safety training. Which option is best is ultimately up to the individual and what they think is best for themselves.
Ive never heard such a good metaphor@@GGBlaster ! Gonna use that now, instead of saying things like "there's many ways to skin a cat" or other such sayings. Most people I talk to are casual star wars fans and I don't have time to go indepth with them, nor do they care that much. But this gets the point across succinctly!
@@GGBlaster Jedi are a religious Order, they obviously need to have a Code of some sort, but as Qui-Gon said, Codes should not existence solely to govern *behaviour*. They should instead merely act as a guide or roadmap to understanding the Force. In other words, what is truly important about any rule is the *spirit* of the law, rather than the 'letter’ of the law. In some ways, never allowing the Jedi to experience these sorts of relationships merely attempts to remove any form of 'temptation’ towards attachment from their paths. Whereas, it’s more difficult, perhaps, to find a level of detachment in one’s outlook and actions while one has actual 'attachments’ in form of loved ones, but ultimately this would help Jedi achieve a truer and more lasting form of 'non-attachment’ But an even deeper problem is simply that the Prequel Jedi are never taught to handle attachments in a healthy manner. There are ways to cope with the fear of losing your loved ones, but the Jedi didn't seem to know or care about those, they simply prohibited having loved ones in the first place. In “Into The Dark" a Jedi very strongly talks about how it is almost perverse that he's expected not to outwardly mourn for long, and the driving theme of Rise of the Red Blade is that the Jedi Order never met Iskat's emotional needs. So in theory they do not actively suppress emotion. But in practice they definitely do. It's just rather than it being the Orders own doctrine it's a trap they fall into. While, yes, the Jedi as a whole do not advocate suprressing emotions, there are absolutely Jedi who interpret Jedi teachings as such. There's a great character in a Star Wars video game, Knights of the Old Republic, named Jolee. He quit the Jedi order out of frustration with the institutional philosophies around love and attachment. In the game, he says this: "The Jedi, with their damnable sense of over-caution, would tell you love is something to avoid. Thankfully, anyone who's even partially alive knows that's not true. Love doesn't lead to the dark side. Passion can lead to rage and fear, and can be controlled... but passion is not the same thing as love. Controlling your passions while being in love... that's what they should teach you to beware. But love itself will save you... not condemn you." “Love causes pain, certainly. Inevitably, love is going to lead to as much sorrow and regret as it does joy. I suppose there are perfect, eternal loves out there, but I haven't seen any. How you deal with the bad part of love is what determines your character, what determines the dark side's hold over you."
@@GGBlaster I really like that way of describing the concept, but I do think you are giving the pre imperial Jedi order a bit too much credit. Attachments can be a path to the dark side, but they are also what grounds a person. someone who denies themselves any attachments is never going to be able to truly understand the needs of the galaxy, because they have emotionally segregated themselves from that galaxy. They may be at less of an individual risk of falling, but the trade off was always the entire order becoming too uninformed to do its job properly, which always enabled the sith to rise again under their noses. a great example of this is actually Luke and vader themselves. It was anakin's attachment to his friends that motivated him to become such a successful Jedi, but it was also those same attachments that made him desperate enough to join the dark side. But far from trying to prove his father's view on attachments wrong, Luke was just as if not more invested in his emotional attachments as Anakin was, and it was that investment that saved Vader and destroyed the empire. If Luke had followed Jedi teachings around attachments, the empire would have never been defeated and the Jedi order would have been snuffed out completely. EDIT: if it's not obvious, I just finished the last season of bad batch and I am seeing stars from all the "no brothers left behind" grass I've been smoking.
@@valdamirlebanon4508 You are right that total detachment can blind someone to the issues plaguing greater society. However, the Jedi’s detachment isn’t truly the cause of their problems and eventual fall. In fact, in a twist of irony, it was the Jedi Order’s attachment to the Senate that caused the Jedi to blindly side with the Huk and attack the Kaleesh, eventually creating General Grievous. It was that same attachment that turned peacekeepers into generals, that caused heroes to commit war crimes, and that eventually positioned every Jedi within the crosshairs of a good soldier following orders. And to be clear, I personally disagree with total detachment from personal connections. My original point was to show how different groups or generations may approach a question/problem in different ways. And my point still stands: you can cut a hole in the fence and step through, and you’re still 8-9 feet away from the edge of the cliff. Anakin fell because he, unlike his son Luke (legends Luke), inched too close and lost his footing. The Jedi before the Empire thought it was in their best interests - at that time, in their circumstances - to place a wide buffer zone between themselves and the Dark Side. This is akin to, say, avoiding bars if you want to go/stay sober, which for some people is a far safer option for them, as opposed to others who feel secure enough to enjoy a burger and fries without ordering any strong drinks.
@@ryandunham1047 Nah, Palpatine would definitely be the kind of guy who would personally kill a mailman who had what he wanted and then kill everyone who directly helped him. It's true that Palpatine could certainly do this, while Benny wouldn't have as much skill, soo the game could still exist
I've always suspected that the story of Darth Vectivus might be a lie because his story doesn't make any sense. I mean, you have a guy who is for a lack of a better word, a CEO who finds the Sith. Yes, Rule of Two Sith used different identities is to blend in with the Galactic Society but they use those same identities to advance the Sith grand plan. And for Vectivus there is no sign of that. They say he died in peace surrounded by people he loved, but even then the only way for Sith to die during the rule of two era they had to kill each other. So things don't add up with Vectivus because there was only one role and one plan he could have stuck to: Sith.
And that final point is something that the later Fel Empire addresses. For as loyal as the Imperial Knights were to their Emperor or Empress, their ultimate loyalty was to the Force, specifically the light side, and if it became clear that their leading was slipping down a dark path they had full authority to act and intervene, thus preventing the Empire itself from slipping down a dark path.
@@williamcostigan91 If the kings and kings’guard was like that Westeros would been a better place something that Jaime would have been a knight that he dream of becoming.
Holy fuck it’s finally here. MONTHS in the works, MONTHS of waiting for the day. And it has arrived. Those of us who’re diehard Geetly’s fans couldn’t sleep until now.
The Jedi were a force of Good for the galaxy. I have no doubts the Galaxy would have fallen to darkness without the Jedi in it. However, while keeping a watchful eye on everything for any sign of the Sith, they became too narrow-visioned and overconfident in themselves. It was these flaws that led to the Jedi being destroyed. Yes, the Sith evolved to become beings the Jedi couldn't detect. The Jedi didn't evolve at all, sticking with the old ways and making the rules more strict and rigid. It's a shame but fact of the matter is the Jedi helped mold an enemy they couldn't see or touch...until it was too late.
Regarding the first point of how the Galaxy would be much darker without the Jedi, I made a similar comment in the original post: if the Jedi or an equivalent faction didn't exist, then there would be many more examples of ambitious Force Sensitives giving into the Dark Side - either intentionally or instinctively - for various reasons and eventually there would reach a point where several of those using the Force to gain power would reach a galactic level and the Galaxy would turn into what the New Sith Wars could have been (and likely was in areas deep in Sith territory that the Jedi couldn't reach) if the Jedi weren't present to oppose any of the significant Sith Lords.
I don’t agree with the Anakin section at all. The disrespectful level of mistrust created a self fulfilling prophecy, and then they were like, “See! I told you he was bad!”
I firmly agree. The thing is if they were going to cave in to train him at all, they could not half ass it. They needed to accept that Anakin was going to have baggage that he would require extra help to overcome if he were to ever fulfill the prophecy.
I find the disrespect argument especially compelling because the result was balanced on such a knife's edge. If Anakin had just stayed in the council chambers as commanded a little longer, or just chosen not to interfere when he arrived, Mace Windu would have won.
@@RoyalFusilier That is partially why I and the OG commenter disagree with Geetlys. I find it to be overly presumptuous to say that Anakin would have fallen regardless of the Jedi trusted Anakin or not. The future is not set and stone, and even after all the factors that swayed Anakin to turn, it was still hard for him to do so. In a twisted way, the Council's lack of trust in Anakin only created a self fulfilling prophecy. So sure, they were technically right not to trust him, but that was only because they took the actions that all but handed Anakin over to Palpatine. These are mistakes that Qui Gon likely would not have made, hence why it is widely accepted that Anakin never would had fallen if Qui Gon was the one to train him.
They were written as the good guys. Therefore, they are the good guys. Even in the new material they are the good guys. That doesn't mean they are perfect. That doesn't mean they are not flawed. But they are still better than the bad guys. They can shine a light on their imperfections all day long but that doesn't change the facts. It doesn't change anything. It just makes them more human and realistic.
You’re absolutely right! While there are a few bad apples for the Jedi and may have a flawed code, they aren’t evil. I do think that most Jedi were good people with good intentions, it’s just that reality is often more complex than black and white
And yet the bad guys were the ones that brought peace , prosparity and security to the galaxy . Ironic isn't it ? The Jedi with all that potential sit in their little fort while the galaxy was ruled by corruption within the Galactic Senate which allowed Darth Sidious to take control and nearly exterminate them. Because of their lack of perception and their lack of willingness to do anything about it until it was far too late. Their biggest flaws were lack of perception skills and their inaction when they could clearly see that the Senate was becoming more and more corrupt. This is why Count Dooku left the Order and became a pawn to the dark side. Also like to point out that Anakin Skywalker's decapitation of Count Dooku was actually a war crime. Because Dooku was unarmed therefore no longer a combatant thus a Prisoner of War at this point. And even in Star Wars killing POWs is a war crime. Of course when it comes to the overall Jedi Order we could add it to the laundry list of crimes and war crimes they have committed over generations and never charged for. Throughout the Clone Wars we see Jedi commit perfidy (false surrender) and torture (via invasive, painful Force interrogation) of POW's , and in the case above murder of a POW. Using children under the age of 15 is a war crime under international law and would be the same in the Star Wars universe especially under the Republic. Note Ahsoka for instance is only 14 when she first appears. And were not even going to get into the fact that the Clones themselves were 9 years old children in adult bodies. The Republic and Jedi committed so many war crimes it wasn't funny in the Clone Wars. So the Jedi weren't the good guys or the bad guys. They were just an order of monks basically who got involved in politics and ended up doing horrible things during the Clone Wars beyond just being terrible commanders.
The Jedi will always be the good guys it better them protecting the galaxy over a sith maniacs rule the galaxy who subjugate it people,terrorize them and even destroy planets for their pleasure and displeasure.
@@John2r1that isn’t “ironic” at all, because it just isn’t true. The Sith create the situation where there stopped being peace, when was the galaxy not secure before they started the war? And what prosperity did we see that didn’t exist under the Republic? The Jedi’s goals aren’t and never were to rule the galaxy. They were not lawmakers, they were not politicians. If you want a theological dictatorship then you’re looking for another group. Who promoted him to commit that war crime? The guy you’re claiming brought peace, prosperity and security to the galaxy. All of the war crimes you’re currently wanting to address are because of the group you’re defending. You seem to continually ignore that aspect of it. And clearly it is not the same in the Star Wars universe because those teenagers were LITERALLY conscripted into the military. Your take is just awful, not only does it it isn’t even a legitimate bad faith argument. It’s just making up lore to fit what you want to be true.
Jedi Bashing became popular among Star Wars fans with the release of The Clone Wars' fifth season, particularly the "Ahsoka on Trial" arc. Dave Filoni intentionally portrayed Jedi characters as rigid, establishment figures to elevate his own creation, Ahsoka Tano, as a brave and rebellious maverick. Before The Clone Wars TV series, the original Star Wars: Republic comic stories had depicted Jedi as fully fleshed-out, complex characters who were compelling and interesting. Filoni's approach shifted the narrative, arguably undermining this earlier, more nuanced storytelling.
@@jefferybrown6473KOTOR 1 and 2 is up for interpretation unlike Filoni’s TCW. That’s just the popular narrative and interpretations of KOTOR. Ultimately, we see the Jedi were on to something and it wasnt just rigidness. People just choose to remove the nuance in favor of their side
Even if you disagree with the Jedi and even if you find them to be evil, the pragmatist in all of us has to stand with them. If for no other reason than the Rule of Two being so monumentally effective at guiding the Sith to unparalleled individual power that it threatens the entire galaxy on the reg. So we side with the Jedi just to ensure that the Jedi get to Force sensitives first.
I think 'Attachment' should be swapped for 'Possessiveness' so people have a better idea of what the Jedi mean. As for Romantic love, well, Revan succeeded where Jolee failed. Personally, I think the Jedi should have installed themselves as kings of the Sith race until they were ready to rule themselves again, like they had with the Pius Dea Republic (you left out how the Jedi were so paranoid they started torturing Sith until they figured out how to sever a Force Sensitive from his power, which after watching Korra, I'm at odds with.) Their PR department being nonexistent also made things so much harder for them. 1:50:51 You don't get to alienate and disrespect someone for over thirteen years and yell 'I knew you were no good' when he turns on you. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Either they train Anakin and try to make the best of it, or reject him, and then Palpatine offers to teach him. Anakin went berserk on the Sand People because he was told to forget about his mother, who he'd last seen enslaved. If they had done more to get him on their side, I think he'd have stayed loyal. Mace Windu was always stupid. Besides, you yourself noted that if they made Anakin a master, he would have learned Palpatine was lying about Darth Plagueis. One of the things I like about TCW is his early promotion and padawan assignment, as it shows them demonstrating trust to gain his trust.
The idea of the Jedi being the Real villains started out, at least I thought, as a joke. Kind of like, Die Hard is a Christmas movie! It's a joke, a troll, a lark, a prank... But not everyone seemed to have understood that.. Jedi are good, despite their many flaws. The Sith are evil, despite their relatability. We live in a Very messed up time when it has to be explained Why God is good and the Devil is evil...
Part of the problem here I think is that there is appeal to that theory, the way jedi portrayed in the movies is just not expansive enough. I imagine same thing would happen to W40K if/when it comes to that medium, there is just no real way of explaining why bad things has to happen to innocents in a short time of a movie. Clone wars animated series were good exactly because they dived much more into mundane horrors of life in SWU.
I know‥ It is just they are that so of a force for good, only as a 1-dimensional-minded sense of perspective, that in strong opinion at the least, if not straight-out “in no shadow of a doubt whatsoever”, that no sort of true spiritual-based faith faction worth their weight in salt, that supposedly to understand all-universal balance should not perceive reality as in that kind of either manner or fashion.
Flaws don’t make you wrong or evil. They make you human. The Jedi strove for a higher way of life, and I think we looked at them stumbling along the way and cynically looked at it as hypocrisy. I suppose that, with all our flaws, we might have become jealous of those who decided to not let their flaws define them.
I think the only war the Jedi were actually responsible for was the Jedi civil war, if the Jedi had been there to support Revan’s followers during the mandalorian wars, been there to guide the young knights, they may have not fallen to the dark side and the Jedi civil way may not have happened
That one was a tricky one because at that time, the Jedi did stand by their principles that they were not meant to be war lords. Essentially, the Clone Wars is what happens when the Jedi do get involved, the Mandalorian Wars is what happens when they don't.
oh geez i disagree with alot in the emotions section. specififcally with that of anakin. for one: his relationship requiring secrecy to begin with, pitted that relationship against the jedi from the onset. to say its a good example is a bad faith argument disregarding crucial context.
The main flaw of the Jedi is they got satisfied, they aren't miracle workers despite the magic but they should have always been striving to improve both their order and the galaxy whenever possible
Here's my verdict: the New Jedi Order (from Legends) did a much better job. Because they either saw the mistakes made by the old Order or didn't know about it. They did a better job at making sure that they weren't tied to one single government and went out into the galaxy and helped planets, even if they weren't part of the Republic.
I still think they should've at least trained any older force sensitives to at least learn to control their powers enough to prevent them from accidentally affecting people's minds, etc. Seeing as how it's apparently X-Men level nonsense if you don't teach them how to control it.
Wow names the agriculture core but not the healing core or education core also there was raising other younglings and all kinds of stuff a padawan could do I personally would have became a librarian assistant in the temple library
I’ve noticed a lot of people who tend not to like Jedi just follow popular theories, opinions and misconceptions. Some are just flat out dense and omit parts of Star Wars or situations to make the Jedi look evil or to be a contrarian. Like on Instagram today, I saw a short about how Darth Vader isnt cold hearted because he spared Starkiller. Despite Vader training Starkiller for selfish gain and using him to unleash even more terror on the Galaxy. They conveniently left that part out
The only reason Vader ever left Galen alive was because of his power. Even as a boy, he was stronger than his father according to Vader. Vader sensed his power and just assumed Galen was a Jedi Master before he figured out he was actually a kid.
@@floricel_112Don’t you know wookies don’t count as people! The empire says since they can’t even speak basic, they’re clearly unintelligent! Those were just monsters, probably would have eaten the kid if vader didn’t stop them!
It wasn’t really a singular Sith who did all that damage, it was 850 or so years worth of other Sith Lords schemes, plus him teaming with Dooku, Maul, and Anakin. Yeah Palpatine was super smart but he made a lot of errors that in any other Era in the SW timeline, would’ve got him wiped. Hell he was an Apprentice during the beginning of the Phantom menace, Plaguies helped him set up everything he ever did as a Sith directly or indirectly
Destiny and free will arnt contrary the are complimentary. Destiny is the path you were always ment to take. No one can see their destiny until its obtained. Free will is just the choices we make to achieve our destiny. If one sees their Destiny too early it will also throw off their free will. Trying to avoid a thing or achieve a thing and every choice brings you closer or futher almost like struggling in quicksand.
They don't represent the Light, Dark and balance, but selflessnes, selfishness and the Will of the force. You may notice that the son didn't fall to the Dark Side until he killed the Sister, as Obi-Wan pointed out. Geetslys actually made a video about this topic /watch?v=CmhqCo5we3Q
I think we (like some of the societies in Star Wars) have conflated the Ones of Mortis to be gods of the Force or to be incarnations of aspects of the Force. The truth is that they aren’t - they’re just extremely powerful force-wielding entities, who, as we’ve seen in the Mortis arc, are also subject to most of humanity’s own vices and virtues. Notice that at no time does the Father use any Dark Side power. In fact, he actively warns his son, the Brother, against its temptation. The Father acts as a balancing control over his children, but the Daughter never needed much control, because she willfully submitted to her Father. The Son, on the other hand, rebelled and resented his Father’s wisdom and counsel, and required sharp correction to keep him from disrupting the delicate balance in the Force.
From what I've seen the Son exists because the dark side exists, and same with the daughter, she exists only because the light side exists, and the father is the embodiment of the force itself, much like Anakin was
Your Ahsoka argument is wrong. How does everyone forget that the reason that the Jedi asked Ahsoka to investigate the Temple bombing was because she wasn’t there when it occurred. They already knew that it was likely an inside job. Since Ahsoka (and Anakin) was not there, they knew that she had nothing to do with it. Even in the footage that framed her for choking the suspect that she went to interrogate, it is obvious she is not deploying a “force choke”. Even if she needed to be detained for choking the suspect, she still couldn’t have had anything to do with the bombing. It’s just a huge plot hole that has always bothered me. Plus the footage of the interrogation, that I also mentioned.
The Jedi weren't putting her on trial, the republic was, thus the Jedi's opinion on the matter didn't matter, also yes to us the audience and possibly the Jedi it may have been obvious that Ashoka wasn't choking her, but to the republic citizens and personnel they had no idea, and they realistically couldn't have known Another thing is that it being an inside job is exactly why it's reasonable to believe Ashoka did it, she wasn't the one who blew up the temple, that guy was, so she could have easily given him the nano things and left with Anakin for their mission, it was all set up so so incredibly well by Barris
I have to disagree in the case of Ashoka's trial. Since it really was a matter of guilty until proven innocent. More importantly the Council didn't even try to investigate. Yes there ability to investigate was hampered but to not even try. To me that's tant amount to fire fighters showing up to a fire and going well were having a hard time getting to the fire hydrant so we're not going to bother with this fire. As for the Jedi Bering no responsibility for the creation of the Sith again I have to disagree. When your organization makes it there dutie to annihilate an entire civilization down to the last child you but if some survive and hate you for it it's definitely your fault.
How is that at all true? The entire arc is her escaping prison before any trial. The entire storyline is them just trying to get capture her so that there can be a trial. There are three episodes prior to the hunt for Ashoka that was an investigation. It all ended up pointing to Ashoka. They make it very clear in the video and you still are latching on to the same problem. It happens in movies all the time too. We as the audience know more information, so it seems like the “law” isn’t doing their job. However, that’s only because we know from a 3rd person perspective that the main character isn’t guilty. From a person in that world’s perspective she is very clearly guilty, and it would be a very well crafted conspiracy for her to not be. The only real defense would be, “but we really like Ashoka and think she’s a good person.” You don’t think people would say the same thing about Bariss Offee? That also is absolutely NOT what happens to the Sith.
@@rickyrobby8133 My point is that the Council wasn't even willing to entertain the idea Ahsoka might be innocent nope just drum her out and then in hindsight oh well that was your test and you pass. As for the Sith so your telling me that the moment they were ordered to fight to the death the entire species became immune to incapacitation sorry don't buy it. I could incapacitate you but you want to die so death it is
@@NekoKat. I feel like you didn’t listen to what they said in this video or read what I wrote. The Jedi weren’t deciding if she was innocent or not. That’s what the trial was for. She had escaped custody and was being brought in for the trial. Clones were killed which meant it was no longer an internal matter for the Jedi to decide on. The Republic courts were going to put her on trial. What you’re saying would be the equivalent of a cop escaping custody on suspicion of killing people and you responding with, “well I think the police should do more investigating. I don’t see any reason why the cop should be arrested and put on trial. It should be an internal matter for the police to figure out.” It would be an absolutely insane way to view the case, and would be a very clear example of corruption. You’re not seeing it that way because you like Ashoka and you know she wasn’t guilty. That isn’t what I said about the Sith at all. What I said was that isn’t what happened, because it isn’t. He talks about that in the video too. It’s just incorrect to claim that the Jedi did it. The Sith Lords forced all of the lower class Sith species to fight to the death against the Republic and to commit ritualistic suicide if defeat was eminent. It is entirely false that the Jedi intended to destroy their entire species.
@@rickyrobby8133 I think on this one were going to have to agree to disagree. While I will absolutely admit I do like Ashoka I still believe the council could and should have done more. It still comes down to the fact that the Sith wouldn't have given the order to fight to the death and commit mass suicide had the Jedi taken the high road at the end of the hyperspace war and just let the Sith retreat.
@@NekoKat. I do not agree to disagree. You’re just wrong. Most of what you’re saying is just not factually accurate and the rest is just a crazy interpretation. You’re choosing to ignore information that you don’t like. What should the Council have done? Not tracked her down after she escaped custody? Ignored all the evidence presented? Denied the Republic access to put her on trial? Again, imagine if we weren’t talking about someone you like that you know is innocent. If there was a cop in this situation there’s NO WAY you’d be saying this about them. You’re only thinking this way because you’re a fan of the character. You’re not being objective. And that is absolutely not what it comes down to. And the fact that’s the conclusion you’d come to says everything. You either have a ridiculously biased view of the Jedi that you’re unwilling to budge on or you’re just not very knowledgeable about the lore. Concluding that what happened was the result of the Jedi being hell bent on genocide rather than the Sith just being evil is straight up laughable.
I have to wonder if Anahkin wouldn't have just been scooped up by Palpatine anyway. At least, once he won the battle Naboo. Had he never left Tatooine, that brings a whole new variable to the mix. Including wither or not the battle of Naboo would have been won (though considering Padme managed to capture the Vicroy herself, it may have still ended in victory, just in a different way).
All this not to mention that the New Jedi Order, under the initial leadership of Luke Skywalker, as well as later in the Legacy Era, solved a great deal of the flaws the Order had as a whole, to the point where marriage and romantic love ended up working out, finally proving that, if dealt with correctly, it was not only possible to have romantic love while remaining disciplined, but that, as Jolee Bindo said thousands of years earlier, "Love will save you, not condemn you." The New Jedi Order also got into some fairly consistent conflicts with the New Republic, and later the Galactic Federation, to the point of eventually outright aligning with the Corellian Rebels and the Mandalorians during the Second Galactic Civil War. Then, during and after the Aboleth Crisis, the New Jedi Order not only admitted to wrongdoing when accused of it rightfully and repented, they ended up committing a coup against the Federation government led by Daala (who was a bad person to elect in the first place, but I digress), somewhat echoing the Pius Dea coup thousands of years earlier. And finally, though we don't have much in the way of official details due to the Disney Acquisition, we know that the Federation and the New Empire, led by Emperor Ronin Fel and Jaina Fel Solo, eventually had some sort of falling out which led to the displacement of the Federation as the dominant galactic power, which then ruled until the Legacy Era. Due to the corruption within the Federation, the personal character and integrity of Ronin Fel, and his marriage to Jaina, we can easily infer that the Fel Empire must have gained at least partial, if not full support from the New Jedi Order, both because of the Fel Empire's victory (let's face it, it _would_ have been at least a short war, though it probably would've taken a few years) and the splintering of the New Jedi Order into Luke's Jedi Order on Ossus and Jaina's Imperial Knights under the Fel Dynasty. Which lead to a protracted era of peace and rebuilding, as well as the New Jedi Order finally splitting away completely from government involvement and retreating to Ossus to remain as peacekeepers and humanitarian aid workers. It would've been interesting to see how the New Jedi Order evolved throughout the Legacy Era, after having combined with the Fel Empire and Galactic Federation to become the Galactic Triumvirate post-Darth Krayt, especially in how they interacted with the Legacy Era Imperial Knights.
The bad marks in my book are: 1) breaking kids from families. Yes, it's consensual by the parents, but it's just not good for the kid. That's not how you teach someone to be secure and empathetic. A lot of THAT learning comes from having a mom, dad, and siblings. 2) A focus on NO emotion rather than "emotion, yet peace". Though I'll chalk this one up to a mistranslation, since some of the Jedi Code translations phrase it this way. 3) Arguably the celibate thing. Like that's common for clerical orders in the real world, but it's also a good way to breed yourselves out of existence, since Force sensitivity seems at least partially hereditary. And it should probably be noted that for the real world, those orders were often made up of the 3rd or 4th sons - people who wouldn't HAVE the resources to support a family/kids, so ofc they're going to be encouraged to not do so. There's a cultural element, not just a religious one, which may not apply to sci fi where human culture is assumed to be more "first world", with smaller families and birth control.
Who are you to decide what is “good for kids”? Telling parents what they should do with their kids is a wild thing to suggest. And I have no idea how you drew the conclusion that someone can’t be raised in a secure and empathetic way if they’re not with their birth parents. That’s a shockingly tone deaf thing to say. That is EXACTLY what they teach. I honestly have no idea where the idea that Jedi were taught to have no emotions even came from. You cannot name a single Jedi who doesn’t display emotion. In fact, most of the Jedi we see demonstrate an intense level of compassion that ends up being problematic. Jedi are not “celibate.” They have sex and they drink. They aren’t supposed to be in serious long term relationships that might lead them to compromise their allegiance to the Jedi Order.
@@VArisTHE_sinnerrr To be fair, it only became a problem because the Jedi didn't really bother to help him deal with it in a healthy way and just expected him to completely detach himself of his former life, which just wasn't going to happen.
@@rickyrobby8133 actaully yes and no. The jedi of the prequels didn’t get sex. The Tuscan reformations basically said no family’s and the jedi council harped down on this. Anything before and after the prequel era jedi did have sex. Depending on the era. The view on relationships wanted from “Ok” to “your getting exiled from the order”. The jedi are very complex and have a myriad of different types of people. All flawed and all with different opinions.
1:57:57 If Anikan was granted the rank of Master, and aloud to check the off limits archives, he could've fact checked Palpatine's story and realized that there was no such sith the Jedi knew of, or technique the jedi knew of for Immortality. He then would've groan suspicious of Palpatine and would've probably arrested, or at least confronted him about being the sith Lord. The Jedi not being transparent or teaching their members about the darkisde, its techniques, and the issues that come with them is a major flaw and a reason they fell. They also did a very, very poor job of explaining emotions to their members, why their there, and how to use them. Just meditating and letting them pass is a horrible idea. In episode 2, Anikan's flirting with padme was very cheesy and bad because he didn't know what love is or how to express it. He was never taught. also, you should do another episode like this, but have it be a collab with Alan from Generation Tech and have him be the prosecutor.
As for the Jedi with no attachment rule is understandable looking at Anakin situation I do agree he should leave the order to raise his family but I also say he has potential to be a great Jedi looking at his son journey he just had to be more open to Obi Wan or change himself. While I say trying to save your wife is noble but it don’t fit in the dark side there always a price for that type of power. Just look at god of war Norse saga Freya and Bauldr,Freya had a prophecy of her son Bauldr death so she used her magic to make him invulnerable to all things but negative side he couldn’t feel,taste or smell anything. If Anakin had that similar ability give it to Padme he may had save her from dying but he took her right to live.
To most clearly see that the Jedi Order was actually a good thing as a total, one only needs to look at times and places where it wasn't and how bad the lack of it is for most places. They were the ones who ended and prevented many horrible things, despite their own failings. They had some clear errors, but in most cases they did actually make things better. There's actually one point to consider that was just not mentioned here. In the event that a Force-sensitive person is born and no Jedi are around to affect the situation, that person is left entirely to whatever environment they have. This means in many cases Force-sensitive people could become outcasts, and in especially bad conditions they could end up just falling to the dark side even more easily than some Jedi did without anyone to teach them better. A person who becomes evil and learns to use Force abilities on their own is still quite a terrible occurrence, even if they wouldn't be as bad as a Sith. One of the things the Jedi would be responsible for reducing is the appearance of Force-sensitive murderers and thieves, a thing we never really see explored to my knowledge but one which realistically could happen.
Honestly though, my biggest accusation for an "are they worthy" style trial would be that we get so much of the nature of the Force from their perspective. All the black and white nature of the falling and the corruption and the attachment is told from their rather dogmatic viewpoint. Maybe certain aspects of reality aren't so corrupting if you're not a Sith or Jedi with all their wildly stringent takes. For ALL that the Jedi are so "sure" about the nature of things, they really missed the nature of things. And not just with Sidious. They lost long before when they became beholden to a political entity rather than literally just directly following the will of the force first and foremost. Even by their own standard, they begin the movies as basically irredemably lost. I can't call that anything other than corruption, and so I can't trust their perspective on the Force. Especially when that perspective is used to absolve their actions, I can't trust what they say about the nature if the world.
Geetsly is pretty much where I prefer to come when I want more accurate lore. So happy to get this video. Edit: near the end. Yup. This video is exactly as good as expected. Love the videos!
He didn’t though. For one, that is one out of *so many* failures even if you assume he was attached. For 2, it’s only in the original films where you can claim it was wrong even if you call it attachment. Any expansion beyond the films and we see he either gets loopy or he admits the severe risk. And for 3. Geetsly actually *did* by pointing out luke wasn’t attached anyway.
You guys do realize that was a terrible hatchet job right? Most of your defense was essentially, "you're wrong because we said so." Overlooking most in universe explanations and criticisms. You also skated right by the Mandalorian wars. Where the Jedi council were not, in fact, correct. That's essentially the whole point of the Kotor games, and comics. At the core of it, most of your arguments are, as you stated from the start, simply an apologist's attempt to justify the order. Simple black anf white morality still shows that they were thousands of years past expiration date when they burned.
Holy crap, with telling us that anakin is right in his interpretatiion of the code about attachment u basicly prove urself the order wrong cuz weazeling out of doctrin is asolutely what he did - rightfully so.
Without the jedi there would be no sith. So to say they instead saved many lives is odd. If you cause a problem and then attempt to mitigate the damage you still caused the problem.
Yes and no. The Sith are break away from the Jedi but their very nature has showcased that the Sith or an organization like it would come to exist anyways. And as time has proven, the Sith’s conflict is not just towards the Jedi so even if the Jedi were wiped out, they still wouldn’t stop the violence they inflict.
I love the people who simultaneously say that the Jedi are the problem for training resultant Sith Lords, but then also criticise the Jedi for then unaliving their enemies. They TRIED the way of peace, they tried teaching them the correct way. They didn’t want to know.
1:53:20 that's.... literally not the case? The whole "impossible. Perhaps the archives are incomplete" scene has been memed to death, with OBI WAN being the one to aay it and THE CHIEF LIBRARIAN the one to say otherwise ("if it's not in the jedi archives, it doesn't exist"). Obi Wan, however, doesn't concur and seeks further counsel from Yoda, who was in the middle of training younglings, and they together help Obi Wan help him find Kamino. Yoda doesn't dismiss the child's suggestion, in fact praises it. "Wonderful, a child's mind is"
24:40 Honestly, it sounds like the Jedi employed to great effect a similar strategy to the one Sidious would use in 'modern' times on them. Formally neutral or even fighting on the cult's side, while they infiltrated, organized opposition at every level, and finally directly launched a coup against Pius Dea that destroyed them. In fact, much more effectively, given that the cult didn't have a resurgence like the Jedi did within a few decades of *their* greatest defeat. I'm not sure about going to bat so much for the Clone Wars-era Order considering the scope and scale of their failure to protect peace, justice, the Republic, or even their own actual selves, but the ending of this video takes a fair tack towards their dedication to the Republic.
ehy I love your work and your videos and for me you are one of the best star wars channels in youtube, I want to ask you what are your thoughts about star wars theory controversy that recently come out with star wars explained if you know the story
If the "darkside" should not exist, then way did the son existed. The force "gods" of the father, the daughter, and the son existed until anakin killed them. The son clearly represented the "darkside" of the force. Yes the jedi should have never trained a child was literally created by the force as a response to plagues and sideus messaging with it. it's not like Palpatine would ever found out about anakin and turn him easier. Expesily given anakin couldn't be given back to his slave mother without literally being guilt of sending a child back into slavery or sending anakin to a orphanage.
Um your bias definatly shows . For one the fact that the Jedi decided to become so centralized is the lech pin in their own destruction. The Only Jedi to survive Order 66 where Yoda and 14 other members of the Jedi Order most of whom survived by sheer luck. All of whom where not at the Jedi Temple at the time. It is the same old story of the generals always fighting the last war. On which note the Battle of Geonosis proved that the Jedi are horrible commanders. They honestly wouldn't have been in the position of Generals if it wasn't for political moves that put these inexperienced galactic monks in a position of military leaderships. Second thing with regards to the Sith wars and what the outcome would have been if the Jedi had not stopped the Sith. Well you only have to look at the Galactic Empire and how it provided security , economic mobility for everyone willing to work, etc. For the average civilian who wasn't a criminal or rebel life under the Empire was generally peaceful. Then bad decisions caused a minor rebellion to grow into a major problem. The Mandalorian makes a good case for this factor about the Sith rule of the galaxy as the Empire. Quote " The Empire improves every system it touches,Judge by any metric: safety, prosperity, trade opportunity, peace. Compare Imperial rule to what is happening now. Look outside. Is the world more peaceful since the revolution? I see nothing but death and chaos." -- The Client from the Mandalorian episode 3. So apparently though the polar opposite of the Jedi the Sith aren't actually hell bent on destruction. It would seem that they simply want to control the galaxy unopposed. Are the Sith cruel and evil individuals yes. But if you had a time machine and went back in time to Germany prior to the Nazis losing the war and asked any common citizen under the nazis how they felt about Hitler and his leadership of the country . They would have said he's doing great for Germany. But today we all see the results of the atrocities committed outside of the public view. If you were a common citizen you didn't see the brutal violence and atrocities committed in both the case of the Empire or Nazi Germany prior to the end of the war. Which note it's fairly obvious where the Inspiration for the Empire came from. So the Sith as rulers wouldn't have been as bad for the average civilian. The Jedi never wanted to rule but ended up being involved in politics towards the end of their Order's existance. And because of their political position the members who weren't perfect individuals pulled the right strings to get themselves into the officer corpse of the GAR even though the Clone Commanders where far more qualified to lead their brothers than any of the Jedi were. The Order did become corrupt due to their involvement in politics not by any dark side influance or anything of that sorts but by being in the presences of corrupt people and having to walk in that world. Was the entire order corrupt ? No . Individuals within the Order became corrupted over time. Starting with the lose of their ability to see what was truly going on with the force. That started their decline. So many of them started to get more into politics which well power corrupts , absolute power corrupts absolutely. You can't really stay pure in the force and be involved in the politics of the Republic. Count Dooku figured this out and it was part of why he left the Jedi Order. He became disillusioned with the Order and the Galactic Republic over time. Due to his belief that they were corrupt and ineffective, ultimately leading him to seek greater power by aligning himself with the Sith Lord Darth Sidious, who manipulated his discontent and offered him a path to change the galaxy through the dark side. Count Dooku wasn't too fair gone he was manipulated into doing what he did. He believed he was doing what he did for the greater good of the galaxy and the force as a whole. However Anakin executed him without any form of trial after he was disarmed. Which btw is a war crime. As is pretty much everything else the Jedi did during the war. The source of Dooku's disillusionment with the Order came from him becoming increasingly frustrated with the Jedi Order's perceived inaction against the growing corruption within the Republic Senate. Dooku saw what was coming to an extent and raised his concerns and was basically ignored so he left then he was found by Sidious who used the Jedi's feelings to make him a pawn. Yet the Jedi Order wasn't smart enough or perceptive enough to realize this was happening even though they knew full well the Senate was becoming increasingly corrupt. That is really their biggest flaw. Their lack of perception of what was going on around them. By the time they finally opened their eyes and saw the truth of the situation it was already too late .
Centralization doesn’t seem like the issue. Granted, they pulled out of other regions of the galaxy making people forget what the Jedi really are like. Honestly though, Order 66 wasn’t effective because most of the Jedi were in one well known location, it was because most of the actual fighters were killed in the war or scattered and surrounded by Clones. If Anakin wasn’t leading the attack on the Temple, perhaps more than the handful of Jedi that did escape would have survived. Someone with Anakin’s knowledge of the Temple and strength in the Force and combat skills would be quite useful for that siege. I really don’t think it’s ever a good idea to use the Nazis to try and justify the Empire. Yes, we understand and are sympathetic as to why people would support such regimes. They weren’t living in the best of times. However, of course people are going to remember both more for the Holocaust, the destruction of Alderaan, and other atrocities. These are state-sponsored massacres on unimaginable scales on innocent people. Why does a strong, centralized government have to commit atrocities? Where does it say a centralized government must always be a dictatorship? Let’s not forget both the Nazis and the Empire also invaded plenty of nations/people. The Nazis at least wanted to rule all of Europe and the Empire wanted the whole galaxy. For every time they tried to negotiate, there were always far more times they resorted to force and wiped out the old order and local culture. So what exactly were the Jedi supposed to do about the Senate before Episode 1? March in and arrest every corrupt senator, people who were elected or at least are perceived to be elected? Become politicians themselves, something that would be highly distasteful to them and might set a precedent where only Jedi can be in politics? Leave the Republic, the only galactic-wide government which might then make it illegal for the Jedi to grow their ranks, not to mention make them look unpopular and become targets when Palpatine becomes chancellor? If you asked me, the Jedi were involved in politics the wrong way. They were servants bound to the government, but they had no political power. What I think they should have done is use the status of the Order to endorse and back politicians like Amidala, Organa, Mothma, and Chuchi. People listen to the opinions of the Jedi. Yes, the corporations will back their politicians harder, but the corporations will have to be careful with trying to use their power and wealth to pressure planets when there’s a better option to turn to. With all due respect, do you even have any idea what type of galaxy Dooku wanted before he ran into Palpatine? Because I don’t. In Legends, he is basically just an Imperial given his bigoted views portrayed in the Episode 3 novel. Meanwhile in Canon, he certainly believes in a strong, new order replacing the Republic. However, we have little idea about his pre-Palpatine views. The best I can think is something like in Serenno, one monarch ruling over the people. Perhaps a strong monarch given Dooku’s fascination with the Dark Side. Even if he didn’t create this system in a cruel way, all it would take is one Sith to influence an heir to the throne instead of having to manipulate thousands of politicians. Yes, we all know the Jedi Order could have done better and avoided Order 66 and the fall of the Republic. I’m seriously doubtful of thinking quitting the Republic and that the Empire was a better government are the answers though. If anything, it was the fall of the Jedi that symbolized the end of the Republic and the rise of the Empire, the death of an time of peace and democracy and the rise of war and tyranny. And the Empire no doubt sucked for non-humans just like the inequality between white people and other races. At best, the Empire resembles Cold War America if it went to the natural extreme such as crushing the Civil Rights Movement. That’s the Empire at its best. Why is it that imperfection translates to total failure in the eyes of fans? It’s always obvious that the worst flaws of the good guys are better than the total sum of the bad guys even if you take the latter’s good qualities into account. At least with the Republic and the Jedi Order, we can think of how they can do better while with the Empire and the Sith, evil is core to them. Remove the evil and you don’t have either of them.
@tristankawatsuma8962 Centuralization is how the next generation got murdered. They should have set up various bases around the galaxy so that if one was attacked the others would have time to either deal with it or vanish inside the underground saving the order to fight another day. But they made it centralized to the point that Sidious only had to send Vader to one place to murder the future Jedi. And end the order effectively as an opposition force. It would have taken much longer to take our multiple places and allowed more to escape instead of just 15 out of around 10,000 Jedi. That's a massacre. That could have been prevented or lessened by not having everyone in a central location except those on the front lines.
Though I do disagree with some takes here, I do think a decent amount of the Jedi criticism stems from viewer’s perspective and not being fully aware of the limited perspective the Jedi had. Overall this was a really interesting video, I really enjoyed it.
4:01 star wars does a very poor job of explaining the balance of the force, but they do mention "balance" being in the middle. In Star Wars rebels, you have the Ashla, the Bogan, and then the bendu, "the one in the middle" You also have the mortis gods. The daughter who embodies the light, the son who embodies the dark, and the father who is there to keep his children from destroying each other to maintain balance.
@@Duskcosmog Ok it’s still canon in the licensing sense. But none of that reflects the intentions and established continuity from the original creator. If anything it is only indicative of how out of touch Disney is with understanding the force. Even if we were to go by that, that only suggests the dark side isn’t harmful only if used by cosmic beings not prone to human (aliens included) emotions. Ordinary mortal beings still cannot use the dark side without succumbing to its destructive influence, thus bringing nothing but death and destruction. In essence the aspects of the dark side such as death, destruction, and suffering are not necessarily bad in it of itself. Those are natural parts of life, but those who use the dark side to inflict those aspects such as the Sith are bad.
@kingorange7739 It doesn't matter what lucas' intentions were he's not in charge anymore. You have the ancient Je'daii order whose goal was to maintain balance in the force by never leaning too far into the Ashla or the Bogan, but to practice both and maintain balance. They did this for millinea until a force hound from the infinite empire crash landed and shook things up, then the 1st great schism happened where for some reason they gained a black and white mentality of the force, the Ashla won and exiled the members who praticed the Bogan. They then renamed the Jedi order. You also have Revan, who was so powerful in the force he could lean heavily into the dark without falling under its will. He also practiced the light. This caused some weird stuff to happen where there was then created a dark and light side version of revan. This was during when Lucas was in charge. This is now legends. When Lucas was in charge, there were hints of grayness to the force. This was rarely sean because, for some reason, everyone either leaned into the light or the dark. In Disney Canon, the force is a spectrum. The light side has a will that's more noticeable, and the dark side has a will as well that's more hidden. You can let the force flow you and practice the light, or you can control it until you control it too much that the darkside begins to control you and turn you into a creature of pure lust for power. You also have grey jedi who use both sides of the force. They lean more into the light so as not to fall under the will of the dark. In Canon the balance of the force means to balance the light and dark. It's like Yin and Yang.
@@Duskcosmog Which is something Geetlys has already disproven. Most examples of beings who ride the line between the light and dark side, have either eventually rejected the dark side from realizing it is too much of a slippery slope or fall to the dark side’s corrosive influence. When George was in charge virtually none of his material hinted any kind of grayness towards the force. The films make this pretty clear cut. And ultimately George’s intentions do matter as they are conveyed in the original source material. As mentioned, Disney has effectively tried to retcon how the force works to fit their agenda of it. Revan was someone who was literally out of balance from his tear of light and dark to the point it split his personality. Not a great example. The Jedaii order is a better example but when they eventually went extinct from their perception of the force generating too many dark siders. Which it did, since the schism was generated between those who exclusively used light vs those who exclusively used the dark. Those in the middle practically became none existent as they would either understand the slipperly slope the dark side brought or would become consumed by said darkness. Because ultimately the root of the light side and dark side come down to selflessness vs selfishness. Those are mutually exclusive paradigms. You cannot say you are trying to flow with the force naturally while also trying to enslave the force to your will.
Will of the force and for an artificial creature like a Droïd did they are beneficial ? Did the force rob your sanity by : Provoking neurose by repression for the light side. Provoking psychopathic personality on darksiders. Does the force by the superpowers it confers is not inherently destructive. Palpatine without powers being only Tarkin not so dangerous without sith favors.... And jedi without powers being not the providential man, crutch of the galactic republic interfering with it and leaving it in a weakened state. Does the light side make you a slave of a greater power in exchange of uncanny abilities, and the dark side eat your sanity in exchange for power ? Did the force is the end of free will , surrendering it to a deity ( will of the force ) or to the darker aspect of your personality becoming you own vilain: possibly consumed by anger and self loathing ( Darth Vader ) , greed and megalomania (Palpatine)... The force is a problem and from my atheist perception, we must be outside of it to advance. A jedi is a better neighbor than a sith but the two are not a free spirit they are only slaves ... of a nebulous entity ( jedi ) or their cravings ( sith ) ...
I don't think the Jedi care too much about honour, they just wanna get the job done, why potentially sacrifice lives when they could win by working together, I think Ghost Of Sushima or however it's spelt also talked about this and I agree with the main characters point of view that honour is weak and ineffective
I know that I am late for this because I have no knowledge about this until I saw this video. But here what I have to say: 1 You guys missed one thing about the Jedi Recruitment Practices. The Jedi are being unfair and biased. And a good example of this is shown when they recuited Oliviah Zeveron but abandon her sister, Elecia Zeveron, simply because Elecia's connection to the Force is not as strong as that of her sister's. And this led Elecia to join the Path of the Open Hand, leading the cult into the war against the Jedi for her own personal vengeance intentionally, causing the Night of Sorrows and ultimately led to the creation of the Nihil many generations later by recruiting a fanatic like Marda Ro into the Path of the Open Hand in the first place. None of these would have ever happened and they did not display bias just because Elecia's connection to the Force is not as strong as Oliviah. And if Elecia did flunk and ended up becoming one of the washouts, she will definitely live a good life as a member of the Agricultural Corps or the Medicine Corps with her own pension instead and definitely would not hate the Jedi as a whole or even hating her sister all. 2 The Jedi actively helped the Republic remaining as the sole major power in the known galaxy by crushing all of the Republic's oppositions, whether they are Sith Empires or not. This led to the Republic being too large to govern and the military being disbanded due to the lack of real enemy but space pirates to fight. Had the Mandalorians allowed to have their own galactic state, the Republic military will still existed and border raids between the Republic and the Mandalorians shall become the norm even if the governments of both sides are at peace with one another. As for the role of the Jedi in a galaxy divided like this, it's to negotiate for the truce after truce at the borders on various fronts between the local leaders on both sides of the borders while also traveling around the galaxy and help all those in needed such asthe refugees devastated by the raids between both sides or dealing with some pirate gangs and the Hutts who took advantage of these raids between the Republic and the Mandalorians. This way, the Sith will have no way of manipulating or even infiltrate the Republic and the Mandalorians in the first place since the Jedi constantly traveled around the known galaxy.
There is only one defence the Jedi need your honour. For all their imperfections the Jedi Order were the Guardians of Peace and Justice for over a 1000 years. And would've continued to have been if not been for the Sith. It was for this reason that Grandmaster Luke Skywalker vindicated the previous Order during the Swarm War.
Also also also, defending the jedi this time, the force ghost jedi didn't GET OUT OF being one with the force, they were just able to go back and forth between the natural state of the force and a form to help those living. You LITERALLY could not do it for selfish reasons, thats not how it works in the slightest. Being a force ghost is essentially the PEAK of being one with the force, not just being one with the force at all, ALL things are one with the force, theres a bit more to it when youre a force user tho.
RC didn't blamed the jedi's poor skills as generals for the too high casualties. They blamed their neglect of 'em that was seen as rooted in a view of clones as lesser beings than regular humans. A view that was not entirely wrong eventhough it was generalizing that problem. The fact of jedi who were caring for them as individuals hardly helps, cuz they were also those jedi that became strongly opposed to the order's use of the clones. It actually is not true that the jedi were facing certain death for opposing the enlistment as soldiers. There were numerous jedi who didn't agree to join the war n they werenlt tried 4 treason. Also did the council know that palpatine knew that they were clear about them not to b soldiers as windu told him. The act of enlistment as such alone should've not just b opposed by the - clone army or not, it should've maid the chancler very sus to ignore windu in that and the fear of accusation should never have been an acceptable deturrent. Just look how much bad the jedi allowed themself to do only through lettiing this on decision not to refuse, being driven by fear. Specially the order 66 without chips was impossible, wouldn't they allowed themself to b pressed in that roll. That early with a war just starting, that the core wasn't taking notice of up till it was over corruscant, the ppl weren't frightened enough to easily accept such claims as well as the hate of jedi wasn't bad enough either. Further was palpatine only just gotten into office n had to keep a reluctant n humble immage. He had not the standing to boldly accuse the jedi of treason n also would still have needed trials for all. It's way harder to excuse their murder that way than if it's for them refusing to fight at the front or desertion from acact
my complaint against jedi are They do not Understand Psychology and Is the way they teaching, their members are way a lot of jedi. Eventually, fall to the dark side And Being pacifistic They made themselves a weak in the force and Always imposed their pacifism on everyone else 🙄 If they never understood war or They kept making the same mistakes Of not having a power military For leaving the galaxy undefended with no military
Yeah gotta agree with the psychology bit, seems their training is practically one size fits all or "cookie cutter" training instead of taking in the natural instincts of each race (probably not until they get thier mentors) , brings back the old "what strange to the fly is normal for the spider" analogy comes to mind.
My issue isnt that the jedis way of coming to a decision often lead to bad outcomes or isnt relaible but the fact is that the jedi put ALL of their eggs in that basket and when it disappeared, they ran around like chickens with their heads cut off for decades on end and instead of using EVERY other form of observation and perspective throughout the galaxy to make decisions, they CONTINUE to put FULL faith in the force and its will. And ill be honest, if god suddenly one day revealed himself and was known to be real and you could converse with him, OF COURSE youd rely on him for literally every problem, its an all knowing entity beyong comprehension. But doing that would be DEVASTATING for your personal life, as youre just blatantly ignoring literally everything else around you, or at least see it as FAR less respectable than this other method. Which leads to nonaction and negatives and obstacles tend to grow and persist. Like if your lawnmower stops working you dont just GIVE UP, or even idk start cutting it by hand instead of buying a new mower or paying someone else just out of sheer loyalty or trust in this mower is just illogical to me.
I strongly disagree with you that Anakin shouldn’t have been trained. I do recognize that the Jedi should’ve given him to a more experienced master, as I firmly believe Anakin would’ve done well under the guidance of Qui Gon Jinn. Obiwan just didn’t have the experience to train Anakin the way he needed to be, and while he tried to the best of his ability, he was ultimately a brother to Anakin whereas he needed a father. Yoda, Mace, Qui Gon, Master Fay, Master Dooku, Yaddle, ect. Anyone of these individuals could’ve done a better job at raising and training Anakin, and I know there are even more individuals who could’ve done even better but Obiwan wasn’t the best choice they had at their disposal. They had Space Jesus plop into their lap, divinity itself literally being presented to them in a manner in which they could use it, a prophecy declaring their eventual victory alongside him and they still fumbled. TL/DR: Anakin needed to become a Jedi, the Jedi should’ve had someone other than Obiwan train him.
"the jedi could have seen the plan coming and couldn't have done anything about it" is a wildly incorrect take. At multiple steps, you can stop sidious simply by exposing him. Knowing his plan is exactly what the Jedi failed to do. They failed to plan for this conflict, specifically. That's exactly true on its face. I disagree with a lotta takes nearly ten minutes in, and in ways I find it hard to articulate. But that is blatant. It absolves them of ANY responsibility by acting like Darth sidious is ACTUALLY an unstoppable force of nature. If the Jedi WERE allowed to fall in such a way, surely that is the will of the force allowing its servants to bite it. If Sidious actually IS a Force Of Nature, it's because he's part of the Force. Part of the whole plan. But no. He's just a really powerful guy. And they definitely are unworthy to have underestimated the sith.
didn't the jedi kill off the other foce user orders it was in a book about how all of them meet on a planet then then jedi kill them off. if you watch other star wars video like generation tech he has a video that said the yoda knew about the sith long before in the acolyte
If I go just after the book "The Jedis Path" that is set directly after the Ruusan Reformations, then no, they coexisted with other lightside institutions and even sent thier pupils to learn from those. I doubt that would have changed over the cause of the Republic Golden Age
Damn, more than half of these were Jedi bad memes taken way to seriously, people who didn't understand the Jedi and how they worked while making their claims, and people who had very visible distane for the order and made very one sided claims using "evidence" that was taken out of context or took an existing event that was actually fine and twisted it in a way that made the Jedi look bad lol. The Jedi was an extremely flawed but necessary power that was ultimately a source of salvation. The issue is the sith slowly worked against them and chipped away from them century after century. The lot of it wasn't a planned long gamish attack, but attacks that kept crippling the order and eventually breaking. That being the loss of their second planet causing them to be based on Curasant and no longer able to threaten the Senate with leaving the Republic because they were on the planet that was the heart of the Republic. They lost their bargaining chip and had to slowly adapt into their new situation which thanks to them no longer being isolated on their own planet doomed them to eventually be deeply integrated into the Republic and the messy politics that ran it. What made matters worse eas was their temple was built on a dark side Nexus comparable to the star map in a way. The Jedi of ol was able to depower it and stop its corrupting influence then decided to build a temple over it. As the years ticked by the temple grew, slowly building on top of each other abandoning the lower sections and almost entirely forgetting about them, only a few Jedi knew of these now vast catacombs and how to navigate them. At some point Palp discovered the existence of the Nexus and repowered it. This act clouded the force and dampened the Jedi's ability to forsee the force as it was quite literally under their nose. This pretty much set the stage for their fall. There was no way of going back and it doomed them to a future where they became less and less attached to the force and was eventually massacred. There was almost no way the Jedi could have seen this ultimate long game happening and work against it.
Special thanks to these commenters, They were instrumental in the production of this video:
It's also important to note that this script was WRITTEN (not edited) before the Acolyte came out, just to dispel any confusion about why we didn't address the show's criticisms of the Jedi, which were prominent.
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Thank you all for your comments in that post a few months back!
Hopefully, this won't turn into a purge list once Pong Krell becomes Emperor.
I am sorry‥ but I am afraid that this black and white so-discernment view of the force game is rigged from the start… in other words, your view this presentation that is discussed, sees The Force as too far 1-Dimension black and white. 👎
If that kind of black and white pulp-fic view-based judgement is that easy, then why The Jedi would easily see all those follies of making these kind of decisions that a dark-sider would have make that will surely will lead The Jedi only to some sort of a dark-sided disaster that only lead The Jedi 3 time to there own Jedi purge, such example as The first Jedi Purge, throughout the Star Wars′ history?
@@TheGoldenWildcat What do you mean?
Idk how to tell you this, but it's defense not defence
Regard Gray Jedi argument. Grey Jedi are most of all Jedi! All Light Sith were heretics, who despite practicing art of Dark Side, come to same conclusion as Jedi. What actually make them not a Dark Side users anymore. Generally term Gray Jedi refereed to three categories:
1) Members of Jedi Order, who disagree with the council. But still fallow they commands. Example of that was Qui Gon Jin. And it is worth to remind that it was because he was Padawan of Dooku. But despite that he stay loyal to the Jedi Order.
2) Ex-Jedi who refused to abandon using The Force. Jedi Order didn't like them, but until they didn't do anything suspicious, they couldn't really do much with that. Example of this type was Ashoka Tano.
3) Jedi who know some Dark Side techniques. Sometimes it happen that Jedi learn how to do that. They typically refuse to use them, until absolutely nesesery. But they still could. Examples: Mace Windu and Luke Skywalker.
4) Gray Paladins. Were not real Gray Jedi, but ancient group of Jedi Warriors operating more as mercenaries. For example using the blasters.
Anyway. The crime of the Jedi during movie era, was that they condemn Jedi Sentinels and many of them confused fallowing rules of the Order, with fallowing will of the Force. Real Jedi Sentinels like Mitra Surik, use powers what were in a way close to Dark Side. They for example could track Force users with limited use of Force Drain. Jedi Healers commonly were also doing that, transferring life-force. Jedi didn't understand or trust them, as such most Sentinels were delegated to Agricultural duties. Han Solo, who was extremely powerful in use of Force Sense, but he was straight ignored by the Order (yes, he was Jedi Sentinel). It is why Jedi Temple Guards could not detect Sith who infiltrated them. Anyway, there is a reason why most Jedi who survived were Sentinels or Gray Jedi. Obi Wan despite being born Guardian, also start questioning rules of the Jedi what saved his life. For example Grevious was extremely vulnerable to the Force. Yet he slain many Jedi, because they in hubris challenged him on the sword fight. At one point Obi Wan start simply using Force Push and blasters against him and so he did win.
Dislike all the bots. Report em for spam. Together, we can win the bot wars
Hey, I'm all for droid rights buuuuuut
@@geetslys, the bots ain't droids - Droids have sentience.
For the republic!
Something a bot would say...
Begun, the bot wars has.
“The attempt on my life has left me scarred, and deformed.”
“But I assure you, my resolve has never been stronger!”
@@Enterprise-D666
"The Republic will be reorganized into the FIRST *GALACTIC EMPIRE!* "
Ok, but where's the lie? lol
@@goodenoughright5433It’s from a twisted point of view
In the galactic criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: the galactic police and investigators who find crime, and the attorneys and senators who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories…BUM BUM!
Mariska Hagartay? She's Jayne Mansfield's daughter, and Jayne? She was a proud member of the Church of Satan and paramour to High Priest Anton Szandor LaVey
Ok, now that's funny right there 😂
Screw you!
Seriously though now I want Star Wars Law and Order
I still think the Jedi should've allowed romantic attachments, yes Anakin's love for Padme was inherently unhealthy but I still think having a skilled couples counselor on site would have fixed it, also just generally having therapists on site
Also speaking of falling to the dark side, wouldn't kicking someone out of the Order for getting married or encouraging them to leave increase the risk of falling to the dark side? Like all they've ever known is the Order and suddenly that's gone and with it all the alleged supports the Jedi have, wouldn't it make more sense to have Jedi in romantic relationships stay in the Order so they could be coached on how to handle them instead of being thrown out to the wolves?
@@m310grassnot sure how many have actually been kicked out specifically due to their relationships. I think it’s typically treated as more of a taboo, or a practice of detachment, and so they advise against close relationships. It is, however, unavoidable, because attachment comes anyway, even to the most devout of Jedi(evidenced fully in one line: “you were my brother, Anakin!”)
Luke's New Order did allow families but it certainly had its own share of problems that went along with that. As well as it's own fair number of fallen Jedi and Sith Lords.
Wouldn’t help from the fact that he’s afraid of losing her and he’s willing to do anything to save her
The reason it was unhealthy is because Anakin didn't know what he was doing and had to figure all of this out himself. That plus the stress of wartime, feeling like his own family doesn't trust him, and grooming from Palpatine and yeah.
I disagree with the attachment issue significantly because of Luke Skywalker, his Order while flawed like any order in Jedi history proved it was still possible to train older force sensitives to be a force for good while still being able to have families and relationships.
The Jedi forbade relationships not because relationships were a problem. They forbade it as an extra precaution against the risk of attachment. You could compare it to building a fence ten feet away from the edge of a cliff, so that if someone leaned against it and it fell, the person wouldn’t immediately fall over the edge of the cliff.
To your point, yes, relationships and love are all possible while staying firmly in the Light side. But the Jedi of Luke’s Order had to be extra cautious that their love did not become attachment.
The difference between Luke’s Jedi Order and the former Jedi Order here boils down to different approaches to the same problem. One built a fence ten feet away from the edge, the other gave everybody cliff safety training. Which option is best is ultimately up to the individual and what they think is best for themselves.
Ive never heard such a good metaphor@@GGBlaster !
Gonna use that now, instead of saying things like "there's many ways to skin a cat" or other such sayings. Most people I talk to are casual star wars fans and I don't have time to go indepth with them, nor do they care that much. But this gets the point across succinctly!
@@GGBlaster Jedi are a religious Order, they obviously need to have a Code of some sort, but as Qui-Gon said, Codes should not existence solely to govern *behaviour*. They should instead merely act as a guide or roadmap to understanding the Force. In other words, what is truly important about any rule is the *spirit* of the law, rather than the 'letter’ of the law. In some ways, never allowing the Jedi to experience these sorts of relationships merely attempts to remove any form of 'temptation’ towards attachment from their paths. Whereas, it’s more difficult, perhaps, to find a level of detachment in one’s outlook and actions while one has actual 'attachments’ in form of loved ones, but ultimately this would help Jedi achieve a truer and more lasting form of 'non-attachment’
But an even deeper problem is simply that the Prequel Jedi are never taught to handle attachments in a healthy manner. There are ways to cope with the fear of losing your loved ones, but the Jedi didn't seem to know or care about those, they simply prohibited having loved ones in the first place. In “Into The Dark" a Jedi very strongly talks about how it is almost perverse that he's expected not to outwardly mourn for long, and the driving theme of Rise of the Red Blade is that the Jedi Order never met Iskat's emotional needs. So in theory they do not actively suppress emotion. But in practice they definitely do. It's just rather than it being the Orders own doctrine it's a trap they fall into. While, yes, the Jedi as a whole do not advocate suprressing emotions, there are absolutely Jedi who interpret Jedi teachings as such.
There's a great character in a Star Wars video game, Knights of the Old Republic, named Jolee. He quit the Jedi order out of frustration with the institutional philosophies around love and attachment. In the game, he says this:
"The Jedi, with their damnable sense of over-caution, would tell you love is something to avoid. Thankfully, anyone who's even partially alive knows that's not true. Love doesn't lead to the dark side. Passion can lead to rage and fear, and can be controlled... but passion is not the same thing as love. Controlling your passions while being in love... that's what they should teach you to beware. But love itself will save you... not condemn you."
“Love causes pain, certainly. Inevitably, love is going to lead to as much sorrow and regret as it does joy. I suppose there are perfect, eternal loves out there, but I haven't seen any. How you deal with the bad part of love is what determines your character, what determines the dark side's hold over you."
@@GGBlaster I really like that way of describing the concept, but I do think you are giving the pre imperial Jedi order a bit too much credit. Attachments can be a path to the dark side, but they are also what grounds a person. someone who denies themselves any attachments is never going to be able to truly understand the needs of the galaxy, because they have emotionally segregated themselves from that galaxy. They may be at less of an individual risk of falling, but the trade off was always the entire order becoming too uninformed to do its job properly, which always enabled the sith to rise again under their noses.
a great example of this is actually Luke and vader themselves. It was anakin's attachment to his friends that motivated him to become such a successful Jedi, but it was also those same attachments that made him desperate enough to join the dark side. But far from trying to prove his father's view on attachments wrong, Luke was just as if not more invested in his emotional attachments as Anakin was, and it was that investment that saved Vader and destroyed the empire. If Luke had followed Jedi teachings around attachments, the empire would have never been defeated and the Jedi order would have been snuffed out completely.
EDIT: if it's not obvious, I just finished the last season of bad batch and I am seeing stars from all the "no brothers left behind" grass I've been smoking.
@@valdamirlebanon4508 You are right that total detachment can blind someone to the issues plaguing greater society. However, the Jedi’s detachment isn’t truly the cause of their problems and eventual fall. In fact, in a twist of irony, it was the Jedi Order’s attachment to the Senate that caused the Jedi to blindly side with the Huk and attack the Kaleesh, eventually creating General Grievous. It was that same attachment that turned peacekeepers into generals, that caused heroes to commit war crimes, and that eventually positioned every Jedi within the crosshairs of a good soldier following orders.
And to be clear, I personally disagree with total detachment from personal connections. My original point was to show how different groups or generations may approach a question/problem in different ways. And my point still stands: you can cut a hole in the fence and step through, and you’re still 8-9 feet away from the edge of the cliff. Anakin fell because he, unlike his son Luke (legends Luke), inched too close and lost his footing.
The Jedi before the Empire thought it was in their best interests - at that time, in their circumstances - to place a wide buffer zone between themselves and the Dark Side. This is akin to, say, avoiding bars if you want to go/stay sober, which for some people is a far safer option for them, as opposed to others who feel secure enough to enjoy a burger and fries without ordering any strong drinks.
Kreia stares in disgust at your video.
Influence Lose: Kreia
Light Side Points Gained.
I see this as an absolute win
Good
"The game was rigged from the start" Benny, Fallout New Vegas
Benny should have learned some tricks with Palpatine before he shoot the Courier at Goodsprings
@@Neoth40k Perhaps, but then we wouldn’t really have a game, would we? ;)
@@ryandunham1047 Nah, Palpatine would definitely be the kind of guy who would personally kill a mailman who had what he wanted and then kill everyone who directly helped him. It's true that Palpatine could certainly do this, while Benny wouldn't have as much skill, soo the game could still exist
@@Neoth40k Meaning Goodsprings? :(
Please keep Sunny alive!
I've always suspected that the story of Darth Vectivus might be a lie because his story doesn't make any sense. I mean, you have a guy who is for a lack of a better word, a CEO who finds the Sith. Yes, Rule of Two Sith used different identities is to blend in with the Galactic Society but they use those same identities to advance the Sith grand plan. And for Vectivus there is no sign of that. They say he died in peace surrounded by people he loved, but even then the only way for Sith to die during the rule of two era they had to kill each other. So things don't add up with Vectivus because there was only one role and one plan he could have stuck to: Sith.
"Then suddenly, you're a Sith. You didn't ask for it. You didn't want it..."
Plus it comes from Lumiya, who totally doesn’t have a vendetta against the Skywalker family, let alone the fact she is a dark sider herself.
And that final point is something that the later Fel Empire addresses. For as loyal as the Imperial Knights were to their Emperor or Empress, their ultimate loyalty was to the Force, specifically the light side, and if it became clear that their leading was slipping down a dark path they had full authority to act and intervene, thus preventing the Empire itself from slipping down a dark path.
A King's Guard that would only follow a good and righteous king. Compare that to the likes we see in A Song of Ice and Fire and I can see the appeal.
@@williamcostigan91 If the kings and kings’guard was like that Westeros would been a better place something that Jaime would have been a knight that he dream of becoming.
Yeah it clear they prefer following an emperor who on the light side because dark siders are terrible rulers.
Holy fuck it’s finally here. MONTHS in the works, MONTHS of waiting for the day. And it has arrived. Those of us who’re diehard Geetly’s fans couldn’t sleep until now.
I wish the Jedi would have taught their students a healthy way to have and maintain attachments...
Wasn’t the only Jedi that became corrupt and fell to the Sith just Anakin who had unhealthy or complex attachments?
The Jedi were a force of Good for the galaxy. I have no doubts the Galaxy would have fallen to darkness without the Jedi in it. However, while keeping a watchful eye on everything for any sign of the Sith, they became too narrow-visioned and overconfident in themselves. It was these flaws that led to the Jedi being destroyed. Yes, the Sith evolved to become beings the Jedi couldn't detect. The Jedi didn't evolve at all, sticking with the old ways and making the rules more strict and rigid. It's a shame but fact of the matter is the Jedi helped mold an enemy they couldn't see or touch...until it was too late.
Regarding the first point of how the Galaxy would be much darker without the Jedi, I made a similar comment in the original post: if the Jedi or an equivalent faction didn't exist, then there would be many more examples of ambitious Force Sensitives giving into the Dark Side - either intentionally or instinctively - for various reasons and eventually there would reach a point where several of those using the Force to gain power would reach a galactic level and the Galaxy would turn into what the New Sith Wars could have been (and likely was in areas deep in Sith territory that the Jedi couldn't reach) if the Jedi weren't present to oppose any of the significant Sith Lords.
I don’t agree with the Anakin section at all. The disrespectful level of mistrust created a self fulfilling prophecy, and then they were like, “See! I told you he was bad!”
I firmly agree. The thing is if they were going to cave in to train him at all, they could not half ass it. They needed to accept that Anakin was going to have baggage that he would require extra help to overcome if he were to ever fulfill the prophecy.
I find the disrespect argument especially compelling because the result was balanced on such a knife's edge. If Anakin had just stayed in the council chambers as commanded a little longer, or just chosen not to interfere when he arrived, Mace Windu would have won.
@@RoyalFusilier That is partially why I and the OG commenter disagree with Geetlys. I find it to be overly presumptuous to say that Anakin would have fallen regardless of the Jedi trusted Anakin or not. The future is not set and stone, and even after all the factors that swayed Anakin to turn, it was still hard for him to do so. In a twisted way, the Council's lack of trust in Anakin only created a self fulfilling prophecy. So sure, they were technically right not to trust him, but that was only because they took the actions that all but handed Anakin over to Palpatine. These are mistakes that Qui Gon likely would not have made, hence why it is widely accepted that Anakin never would had fallen if Qui Gon was the one to train him.
They were written as the good guys. Therefore, they are the good guys. Even in the new material they are the good guys. That doesn't mean they are perfect. That doesn't mean they are not flawed. But they are still better than the bad guys. They can shine a light on their imperfections all day long but that doesn't change the facts. It doesn't change anything. It just makes them more human and realistic.
Yeah. And if you watch the video, it's predominantly Jedi-positive and making exactly the point you just made
You’re absolutely right! While there are a few bad apples for the Jedi and may have a flawed code, they aren’t evil. I do think that most Jedi were good people with good intentions, it’s just that reality is often more complex than black and white
And yet the bad guys were the ones that brought peace , prosparity and security to the galaxy . Ironic isn't it ? The Jedi with all that potential sit in their little fort while the galaxy was ruled by corruption within the Galactic Senate which allowed Darth Sidious to take control and nearly exterminate them. Because of their lack of perception and their lack of willingness to do anything about it until it was far too late. Their biggest flaws were lack of perception skills and their inaction when they could clearly see that the Senate was becoming more and more corrupt. This is why Count Dooku left the Order and became a pawn to the dark side.
Also like to point out that Anakin Skywalker's decapitation of Count Dooku was actually a war crime. Because Dooku was unarmed therefore no longer a combatant thus a Prisoner of War at this point. And even in Star Wars killing POWs is a war crime.
Of course when it comes to the overall Jedi Order we could add it to the laundry list of crimes and war crimes they have committed over generations and never charged for. Throughout the Clone Wars we see Jedi commit perfidy (false surrender) and torture (via invasive, painful Force interrogation) of POW's , and in the case above murder of a POW. Using children under the age of 15 is a war crime under international law and would be the same in the Star Wars universe especially under the Republic. Note Ahsoka for instance is only 14 when she first appears. And were not even going to get into the fact that the Clones themselves were 9 years old children in adult bodies.
The Republic and Jedi committed so many war crimes it wasn't funny in the Clone Wars.
So the Jedi weren't the good guys or the bad guys. They were just an order of monks basically who got involved in politics and ended up doing horrible things during the Clone Wars beyond just being terrible commanders.
The Jedi will always be the good guys it better them protecting the galaxy over a sith maniacs rule the galaxy who subjugate it people,terrorize them and even destroy planets for their pleasure and displeasure.
@@John2r1that isn’t “ironic” at all, because it just isn’t true. The Sith create the situation where there stopped being peace, when was the galaxy not secure before they started the war? And what prosperity did we see that didn’t exist under the Republic?
The Jedi’s goals aren’t and never were to rule the galaxy. They were not lawmakers, they were not politicians. If you want a theological dictatorship then you’re looking for another group.
Who promoted him to commit that war crime? The guy you’re claiming brought peace, prosperity and security to the galaxy. All of the war crimes you’re currently wanting to address are because of the group you’re defending. You seem to continually ignore that aspect of it. And clearly it is not the same in the Star Wars universe because those teenagers were LITERALLY conscripted into the military.
Your take is just awful, not only does it it isn’t even a legitimate bad faith argument. It’s just making up lore to fit what you want to be true.
They are good guys with imperfection and errors in judgement but have made efforts by trying to be the good guys
Jedi Bashing became popular among Star Wars fans with the release of The Clone Wars' fifth season, particularly the "Ahsoka on Trial" arc. Dave Filoni intentionally portrayed Jedi characters as rigid, establishment figures to elevate his own creation, Ahsoka Tano, as a brave and rebellious maverick. Before The Clone Wars TV series, the original Star Wars: Republic comic stories had depicted Jedi as fully fleshed-out, complex characters who were compelling and interesting. Filoni's approach shifted the narrative, arguably undermining this earlier, more nuanced storytelling.
Eh, KOTOR 1 and 2 also hit on how rigid rhe Jedi Order has been and that was close to 10 years before Clone Wars.
The Jedi have their flaws. But the Jedi way doesn't. That is an important distinction.
@@jefferybrown6473KOTOR 1 and 2 is up for interpretation unlike Filoni’s TCW. That’s just the popular narrative and interpretations of KOTOR. Ultimately, we see the Jedi were on to something and it wasnt just rigidness. People just choose to remove the nuance in favor of their side
@@based4560I still side with the Jedi yes individual Jedis can be flaw but there way of life isn’t wrong.
Filoni is a fraud. He doesn't deserve to lead Star Wars
Even if you disagree with the Jedi and even if you find them to be evil, the pragmatist in all of us has to stand with them. If for no other reason than the Rule of Two being so monumentally effective at guiding the Sith to unparalleled individual power that it threatens the entire galaxy on the reg. So we side with the Jedi just to ensure that the Jedi get to Force sensitives first.
Plus, even the worst of their decisions were plausible, if not right.
Never thought I'd live to see a jedi order Audit
I think 'Attachment' should be swapped for 'Possessiveness' so people have a better idea of what the Jedi mean. As for Romantic love, well, Revan succeeded where Jolee failed. Personally, I think the Jedi should have installed themselves as kings of the Sith race until they were ready to rule themselves again, like they had with the Pius Dea Republic (you left out how the Jedi were so paranoid they started torturing Sith until they figured out how to sever a Force Sensitive from his power, which after watching Korra, I'm at odds with.)
Their PR department being nonexistent also made things so much harder for them.
1:50:51 You don't get to alienate and disrespect someone for over thirteen years and yell 'I knew you were no good' when he turns on you. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Either they train Anakin and try to make the best of it, or reject him, and then Palpatine offers to teach him. Anakin went berserk on the Sand People because he was told to forget about his mother, who he'd last seen enslaved. If they had done more to get him on their side, I think he'd have stayed loyal. Mace Windu was always stupid. Besides, you yourself noted that if they made Anakin a master, he would have learned Palpatine was lying about Darth Plagueis. One of the things I like about TCW is his early promotion and padawan assignment, as it shows them demonstrating trust to gain his trust.
Finally somebody understands
The idea of the Jedi being the Real villains started out, at least I thought, as a joke. Kind of like, Die Hard is a Christmas movie! It's a joke, a troll, a lark, a prank... But not everyone seemed to have understood that.. Jedi are good, despite their many flaws. The Sith are evil, despite their relatability. We live in a Very messed up time when it has to be explained Why God is good and the Devil is evil...
Unfortunately, that is the reality we live in nowadays. Where jokes used to be treated as jokes or satire became a distorted reality for most people.
I wonder if the same thing happened with the Darth Jar Jar conspiracy theory
Part of the problem here I think is that there is appeal to that theory, the way jedi portrayed in the movies is just not expansive enough. I imagine same thing would happen to W40K if/when it comes to that medium, there is just no real way of explaining why bad things has to happen to innocents in a short time of a movie. Clone wars animated series were good exactly because they dived much more into mundane horrors of life in SWU.
As flawed as the Jedi are, they are still a force for good. I think a lot of people lost sight of that as time went on.
I know‥ It is just they are that so of a force for good, only as a 1-dimensional-minded sense of perspective, that in strong opinion at the least, if not straight-out “in no shadow of a doubt whatsoever”, that no sort of true spiritual-based faith faction worth their weight in salt, that supposedly to understand all-universal balance should not perceive reality as in that kind of either manner or fashion.
Flaws don’t make you wrong or evil. They make you human. The Jedi strove for a higher way of life, and I think we looked at them stumbling along the way and cynically looked at it as hypocrisy. I suppose that, with all our flaws, we might have become jealous of those who decided to not let their flaws define them.
I think the only war the Jedi were actually responsible for was the Jedi civil war, if the Jedi had been there to support Revan’s followers during the mandalorian wars, been there to guide the young knights, they may have not fallen to the dark side and the Jedi civil way may not have happened
That one was a tricky one because at that time, the Jedi did stand by their principles that they were not meant to be war lords. Essentially, the Clone Wars is what happens when the Jedi do get involved, the Mandalorian Wars is what happens when they don't.
oh geez i disagree with alot in the emotions section. specififcally with that of anakin. for one: his relationship requiring secrecy to begin with, pitted that relationship against the jedi from the onset. to say its a good example is a bad faith argument disregarding crucial context.
The main flaw of the Jedi is they got satisfied, they aren't miracle workers despite the magic but they should have always been striving to improve both their order and the galaxy whenever possible
35:30
"Pity the Jedi did not slay the Sith when they had the chance."
"Pity? It was pity that stayed their hands."
Well done
Where's the Star Trek channel? I don't see the link in the description?
www.youtube.com/@Starbase1/videos - Woops lol, thx for that, here it is
Objection…Star Trek: The “New” Generation?!
At least the subtitles got it correct
Here's my verdict: the New Jedi Order (from Legends) did a much better job. Because they either saw the mistakes made by the old Order or didn't know about it. They did a better job at making sure that they weren't tied to one single government and went out into the galaxy and helped planets, even if they weren't part of the Republic.
I still think they should've at least trained any older force sensitives to at least learn to control their powers enough to prevent them from accidentally affecting people's minds, etc. Seeing as how it's apparently X-Men level nonsense if you don't teach them how to control it.
Wow names the agriculture core but not the healing core or education core also there was raising other younglings and all kinds of stuff a padawan could do I personally would have became a librarian assistant in the temple library
he did name both of those too.
I’ve noticed a lot of people who tend not to like Jedi just follow popular theories, opinions and misconceptions. Some are just flat out dense and omit parts of Star Wars or situations to make the Jedi look evil or to be a contrarian.
Like on Instagram today, I saw a short about how Darth Vader isnt cold hearted because he spared Starkiller. Despite Vader training Starkiller for selfish gain and using him to unleash even more terror on the Galaxy. They conveniently left that part out
Did those people also forget the pile of wookie corpses he left on his way to Starkiller's dad?
The only reason Vader ever left Galen alive was because of his power.
Even as a boy, he was stronger than his father according to Vader. Vader sensed his power and just assumed Galen was a Jedi Master before he figured out he was actually a kid.
@@floricel_112Don’t you know wookies don’t count as people! The empire says since they can’t even speak basic, they’re clearly unintelligent! Those were just monsters, probably would have eaten the kid if vader didn’t stop them!
It wasn’t really a singular Sith who did all that damage, it was 850 or so years worth of other Sith Lords schemes, plus him teaming with Dooku, Maul, and Anakin. Yeah Palpatine was super smart but he made a lot of errors that in any other Era in the SW timeline, would’ve got him wiped. Hell he was an Apprentice during the beginning of the Phantom menace, Plaguies helped him set up everything he ever did as a Sith directly or indirectly
Absolutely that makes sense exactly
idk if your best counters to a crime is "WE had no choice" youd still go to jail lol
Destiny and free will arnt contrary the are complimentary. Destiny is the path you were always ment to take. No one can see their destiny until its obtained. Free will is just the choices we make to achieve our destiny. If one sees their Destiny too early it will also throw off their free will. Trying to avoid a thing or achieve a thing and every choice brings you closer or futher almost like struggling in quicksand.
If the light and dark sides aren't yin and yang then what's the point of the Brother, Sister, and the Father?
They don't represent the Light, Dark and balance, but selflessnes, selfishness and the Will of the force. You may notice that the son didn't fall to the Dark Side until he killed the Sister, as Obi-Wan pointed out.
Geetslys actually made a video about this topic
/watch?v=CmhqCo5we3Q
@@dorianwiesner4477 thank you. With how many videos iv watched iv probably seen it then and just forgot.
I think we (like some of the societies in Star Wars) have conflated the Ones of Mortis to be gods of the Force or to be incarnations of aspects of the Force. The truth is that they aren’t - they’re just extremely powerful force-wielding entities, who, as we’ve seen in the Mortis arc, are also subject to most of humanity’s own vices and virtues.
Notice that at no time does the Father use any Dark Side power. In fact, he actively warns his son, the Brother, against its temptation. The Father acts as a balancing control over his children, but the Daughter never needed much control, because she willfully submitted to her Father. The Son, on the other hand, rebelled and resented his Father’s wisdom and counsel, and required sharp correction to keep him from disrupting the delicate balance in the Force.
From what I've seen the Son exists because the dark side exists, and same with the daughter, she exists only because the light side exists, and the father is the embodiment of the force itself, much like Anakin was
Your Ahsoka argument is wrong. How does everyone forget that the reason that the Jedi asked Ahsoka to investigate the Temple bombing was because she wasn’t there when it occurred. They already knew that it was likely an inside job. Since Ahsoka (and Anakin) was not there, they knew that she had nothing to do with it.
Even in the footage that framed her for choking the suspect that she went to interrogate, it is obvious she is not deploying a “force choke”. Even if she needed to be detained for choking the suspect, she still couldn’t have had anything to do with the bombing.
It’s just a huge plot hole that has always bothered me. Plus the footage of the interrogation, that I also mentioned.
The Jedi weren't putting her on trial, the republic was, thus the Jedi's opinion on the matter didn't matter, also yes to us the audience and possibly the Jedi it may have been obvious that Ashoka wasn't choking her, but to the republic citizens and personnel they had no idea, and they realistically couldn't have known
Another thing is that it being an inside job is exactly why it's reasonable to believe Ashoka did it, she wasn't the one who blew up the temple, that guy was, so she could have easily given him the nano things and left with Anakin for their mission, it was all set up so so incredibly well by Barris
I have to disagree in the case of Ashoka's trial. Since it really was a matter of guilty until proven innocent. More importantly the Council didn't even try to investigate. Yes there ability to investigate was hampered but to not even try. To me that's tant amount to fire fighters showing up to a fire and going well were having a hard time getting to the fire hydrant so we're not going to bother with this fire. As for the Jedi Bering no responsibility for the creation of the Sith again I have to disagree. When your organization makes it there dutie to annihilate an entire civilization down to the last child you but if some survive and hate you for it it's definitely your fault.
How is that at all true? The entire arc is her escaping prison before any trial. The entire storyline is them just trying to get capture her so that there can be a trial.
There are three episodes prior to the hunt for Ashoka that was an investigation. It all ended up pointing to Ashoka. They make it very clear in the video and you still are latching on to the same problem. It happens in movies all the time too. We as the audience know more information, so it seems like the “law” isn’t doing their job. However, that’s only because we know from a 3rd person perspective that the main character isn’t guilty.
From a person in that world’s perspective she is very clearly guilty, and it would be a very well crafted conspiracy for her to not be. The only real defense would be, “but we really like Ashoka and think she’s a good person.” You don’t think people would say the same thing about Bariss Offee?
That also is absolutely NOT what happens to the Sith.
@@rickyrobby8133 My point is that the Council wasn't even willing to entertain the idea Ahsoka might be innocent nope just drum her out and then in hindsight oh well that was your test and you pass. As for the Sith so your telling me that the moment they were ordered to fight to the death the entire species became immune to incapacitation sorry don't buy it. I could incapacitate you but you want to die so death it is
@@NekoKat. I feel like you didn’t listen to what they said in this video or read what I wrote.
The Jedi weren’t deciding if she was innocent or not. That’s what the trial was for. She had escaped custody and was being brought in for the trial. Clones were killed which meant it was no longer an internal matter for the Jedi to decide on. The Republic courts were going to put her on trial.
What you’re saying would be the equivalent of a cop escaping custody on suspicion of killing people and you responding with, “well I think the police should do more investigating. I don’t see any reason why the cop should be arrested and put on trial. It should be an internal matter for the police to figure out.” It would be an absolutely insane way to view the case, and would be a very clear example of corruption. You’re not seeing it that way because you like Ashoka and you know she wasn’t guilty.
That isn’t what I said about the Sith at all. What I said was that isn’t what happened, because it isn’t. He talks about that in the video too. It’s just incorrect to claim that the Jedi did it. The Sith Lords forced all of the lower class Sith species to fight to the death against the Republic and to commit ritualistic suicide if defeat was eminent. It is entirely false that the Jedi intended to destroy their entire species.
@@rickyrobby8133 I think on this one were going to have to agree to disagree. While I will absolutely admit I do like Ashoka I still believe the council could and should have done more. It still comes down to the fact that the Sith wouldn't have given the order to fight to the death and commit mass suicide had the Jedi taken the high road at the end of the hyperspace war and just let the Sith retreat.
@@NekoKat. I do not agree to disagree. You’re just wrong. Most of what you’re saying is just not factually accurate and the rest is just a crazy interpretation. You’re choosing to ignore information that you don’t like.
What should the Council have done? Not tracked her down after she escaped custody? Ignored all the evidence presented? Denied the Republic access to put her on trial?
Again, imagine if we weren’t talking about someone you like that you know is innocent. If there was a cop in this situation there’s NO WAY you’d be saying this about them. You’re only thinking this way because you’re a fan of the character. You’re not being objective.
And that is absolutely not what it comes down to. And the fact that’s the conclusion you’d come to says everything. You either have a ridiculously biased view of the Jedi that you’re unwilling to budge on or you’re just not very knowledgeable about the lore.
Concluding that what happened was the result of the Jedi being hell bent on genocide rather than the Sith just being evil is straight up laughable.
I have to wonder if Anahkin wouldn't have just been scooped up by Palpatine anyway. At least, once he won the battle Naboo. Had he never left Tatooine, that brings a whole new variable to the mix. Including wither or not the battle of Naboo would have been won (though considering Padme managed to capture the Vicroy herself, it may have still ended in victory, just in a different way).
All this not to mention that the New Jedi Order, under the initial leadership of Luke Skywalker, as well as later in the Legacy Era, solved a great deal of the flaws the Order had as a whole, to the point where marriage and romantic love ended up working out, finally proving that, if dealt with correctly, it was not only possible to have romantic love while remaining disciplined, but that, as Jolee Bindo said thousands of years earlier, "Love will save you, not condemn you."
The New Jedi Order also got into some fairly consistent conflicts with the New Republic, and later the Galactic Federation, to the point of eventually outright aligning with the Corellian Rebels and the Mandalorians during the Second Galactic Civil War. Then, during and after the Aboleth Crisis, the New Jedi Order not only admitted to wrongdoing when accused of it rightfully and repented, they ended up committing a coup against the Federation government led by Daala (who was a bad person to elect in the first place, but I digress), somewhat echoing the Pius Dea coup thousands of years earlier. And finally, though we don't have much in the way of official details due to the Disney Acquisition, we know that the Federation and the New Empire, led by Emperor Ronin Fel and Jaina Fel Solo, eventually had some sort of falling out which led to the displacement of the Federation as the dominant galactic power, which then ruled until the Legacy Era. Due to the corruption within the Federation, the personal character and integrity of Ronin Fel, and his marriage to Jaina, we can easily infer that the Fel Empire must have gained at least partial, if not full support from the New Jedi Order, both because of the Fel Empire's victory (let's face it, it _would_ have been at least a short war, though it probably would've taken a few years) and the splintering of the New Jedi Order into Luke's Jedi Order on Ossus and Jaina's Imperial Knights under the Fel Dynasty. Which lead to a protracted era of peace and rebuilding, as well as the New Jedi Order finally splitting away completely from government involvement and retreating to Ossus to remain as peacekeepers and humanitarian aid workers.
It would've been interesting to see how the New Jedi Order evolved throughout the Legacy Era, after having combined with the Fel Empire and Galactic Federation to become the Galactic Triumvirate post-Darth Krayt, especially in how they interacted with the Legacy Era Imperial Knights.
The bad marks in my book are: 1) breaking kids from families. Yes, it's consensual by the parents, but it's just not good for the kid. That's not how you teach someone to be secure and empathetic. A lot of THAT learning comes from having a mom, dad, and siblings. 2) A focus on NO emotion rather than "emotion, yet peace". Though I'll chalk this one up to a mistranslation, since some of the Jedi Code translations phrase it this way. 3) Arguably the celibate thing. Like that's common for clerical orders in the real world, but it's also a good way to breed yourselves out of existence, since Force sensitivity seems at least partially hereditary. And it should probably be noted that for the real world, those orders were often made up of the 3rd or 4th sons - people who wouldn't HAVE the resources to support a family/kids, so ofc they're going to be encouraged to not do so. There's a cultural element, not just a religious one, which may not apply to sci fi where human culture is assumed to be more "first world", with smaller families and birth control.
Who are you to decide what is “good for kids”? Telling parents what they should do with their kids is a wild thing to suggest. And I have no idea how you drew the conclusion that someone can’t be raised in a secure and empathetic way if they’re not with their birth parents. That’s a shockingly tone deaf thing to say.
That is EXACTLY what they teach. I honestly have no idea where the idea that Jedi were taught to have no emotions even came from. You cannot name a single Jedi who doesn’t display emotion. In fact, most of the Jedi we see demonstrate an intense level of compassion that ends up being problematic.
Jedi are not “celibate.” They have sex and they drink. They aren’t supposed to be in serious long term relationships that might lead them to compromise their allegiance to the Jedi Order.
Anakin having feelings for his kother drove him further towards the darkside attachment IS a problem for force wielders
@@VArisTHE_sinnerrr To be fair, it only became a problem because the Jedi didn't really bother to help him deal with it in a healthy way and just expected him to completely detach himself of his former life, which just wasn't going to happen.
@@virgiljianu7166 honestly I don't think he should've been trained he proved their point tbh
@@rickyrobby8133 actaully yes and no. The jedi of the prequels didn’t get sex. The Tuscan reformations basically said no family’s and the jedi council harped down on this. Anything before and after the prequel era jedi did have sex. Depending on the era. The view on relationships wanted from “Ok” to “your getting exiled from the order”. The jedi are very complex and have a myriad of different types of people. All flawed and all with different opinions.
1:57:57 If Anikan was granted the rank of Master, and aloud to check the off limits archives, he could've fact checked Palpatine's story and realized that there was no such sith the Jedi knew of, or technique the jedi knew of for Immortality. He then would've groan suspicious of Palpatine and would've probably arrested, or at least confronted him about being the sith Lord.
The Jedi not being transparent or teaching their members about the darkisde, its techniques, and the issues that come with them is a major flaw and a reason they fell. They also did a very, very poor job of explaining emotions to their members, why their there, and how to use them. Just meditating and letting them pass is a horrible idea. In episode 2, Anikan's flirting with padme was very cheesy and bad because he didn't know what love is or how to express it. He was never taught.
also, you should do another episode like this, but have it be a collab with Alan from Generation Tech and have him be the prosecutor.
What'll be to equivalent to Saul Goodman?
Any characters we know of?
Early Han Solo and Talon Karrade
4 armed guy from the 90s space dinner on coursancant
@@phillnyetheplaylistguy3759 dex? From dex's diner? Dexter jexter unless I'm misspelling it.
@@JediSentinal yeah dex
THANK YOU SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS AHSOKAS TRIAL
As for the Jedi with no attachment rule is understandable looking at Anakin situation I do agree he should leave the order to raise his family but I also say he has potential to be a great Jedi looking at his son journey he just had to be more open to Obi Wan or change himself. While I say trying to save your wife is noble but it don’t fit in the dark side there always a price for that type of power. Just look at god of war Norse saga Freya and Bauldr,Freya had a prophecy of her son Bauldr death so she used her magic to make him invulnerable to all things but negative side he couldn’t feel,taste or smell anything. If Anakin had that similar ability give it to Padme he may had save her from dying but he took her right to live.
The darkside is rejection and denial. Your rejection of the Darkside is why it exists.
Thank you! Somebody who knows the good are the good guys 😂 surprisingly lol
QUESTION: You blame the Jedi for training Anakin, but wasn't it the will of the force that he be trained?
Kinda.
Every Jedi are definitely They have to follow their own paths
Blub spotted victory achieved
To most clearly see that the Jedi Order was actually a good thing as a total, one only needs to look at times and places where it wasn't and how bad the lack of it is for most places. They were the ones who ended and prevented many horrible things, despite their own failings. They had some clear errors, but in most cases they did actually make things better.
There's actually one point to consider that was just not mentioned here. In the event that a Force-sensitive person is born and no Jedi are around to affect the situation, that person is left entirely to whatever environment they have. This means in many cases Force-sensitive people could become outcasts, and in especially bad conditions they could end up just falling to the dark side even more easily than some Jedi did without anyone to teach them better. A person who becomes evil and learns to use Force abilities on their own is still quite a terrible occurrence, even if they wouldn't be as bad as a Sith. One of the things the Jedi would be responsible for reducing is the appearance of Force-sensitive murderers and thieves, a thing we never really see explored to my knowledge but one which realistically could happen.
Of course you did that anyway
A good and Interesting video. Such videos help me understand Star Wars better. Thanks for your work and the community. I liked it :)
Honestly though, my biggest accusation for an "are they worthy" style trial would be that we get so much of the nature of the Force from their perspective. All the black and white nature of the falling and the corruption and the attachment is told from their rather dogmatic viewpoint.
Maybe certain aspects of reality aren't so corrupting if you're not a Sith or Jedi with all their wildly stringent takes.
For ALL that the Jedi are so "sure" about the nature of things, they really missed the nature of things. And not just with Sidious. They lost long before when they became beholden to a political entity rather than literally just directly following the will of the force first and foremost. Even by their own standard, they begin the movies as basically irredemably lost. I can't call that anything other than corruption, and so I can't trust their perspective on the Force. Especially when that perspective is used to absolve their actions, I can't trust what they say about the nature if the world.
1:15:00 ha lol
love your videos
Excellent 👍👍
Are you alright?
Everyone sad news Darth Vader voice James Earl Jones just pass away today😢
Very good idea of course
Geetsly is pretty much where I prefer to come when I want more accurate lore. So happy to get this video.
Edit: near the end. Yup. This video is exactly as good as expected. Love the videos!
You said The New Generation
That is unforgivable
Truly interesting stuff
Kinda surprised that nobody mentioned that Luke prooved that forbiding attachements was wrong. O_o
He didn’t though. For one, that is one out of *so many* failures even if you assume he was attached. For 2, it’s only in the original films where you can claim it was wrong even if you call it attachment. Any expansion beyond the films and we see he either gets loopy or he admits the severe risk. And for 3. Geetsly actually *did* by pointing out luke wasn’t attached anyway.
You guys do realize that was a terrible hatchet job right? Most of your defense was essentially, "you're wrong because we said so." Overlooking most in universe explanations and criticisms. You also skated right by the Mandalorian wars. Where the Jedi council were not, in fact, correct. That's essentially the whole point of the Kotor games, and comics. At the core of it, most of your arguments are, as you stated from the start, simply an apologist's attempt to justify the order. Simple black anf white morality still shows that they were thousands of years past expiration date when they burned.
I think so maybe
Of course he did it himself always
Money money money I leave Commons and give more interaction
Holy crap, with telling us that anakin is right in his interpretatiion of the code about attachment u basicly prove urself the order wrong cuz weazeling out of doctrin is asolutely what he did - rightfully so.
Whoa whoa whao, y’all got a Star Trek channel? WHY DID NO ONE TELL ME! 😂
Without the jedi there would be no sith. So to say they instead saved many lives is odd. If you cause a problem and then attempt to mitigate the damage you still caused the problem.
Yes and no. The Sith are break away from the Jedi but their very nature has showcased that the Sith or an organization like it would come to exist anyways. And as time has proven, the Sith’s conflict is not just towards the Jedi so even if the Jedi were wiped out, they still wouldn’t stop the violence they inflict.
It's not my fault and I'm not lying about that incident It's not my fault at all ❤
All these comments just expose the people who don’t understand the Jedi or the universe in general glad to see someone come out and debunk them 😊
I love the people who simultaneously say that the Jedi are the problem for training resultant Sith Lords, but then also criticise the Jedi for then unaliving their enemies.
They TRIED the way of peace, they tried teaching them the correct way. They didn’t want to know.
The Sith have proven that if left to their own devices, they threaten the entire galaxy on several occasions, even if there's just two.
Ultimately it comes down to strength of character who are fitting to be a Jedi.
1:53:20 that's.... literally not the case? The whole "impossible. Perhaps the archives are incomplete" scene has been memed to death, with OBI WAN being the one to aay it and THE CHIEF LIBRARIAN the one to say otherwise ("if it's not in the jedi archives, it doesn't exist"). Obi Wan, however, doesn't concur and seeks further counsel from Yoda, who was in the middle of training younglings, and they together help Obi Wan help him find Kamino. Yoda doesn't dismiss the child's suggestion, in fact praises it. "Wonderful, a child's mind is"
24:40 Honestly, it sounds like the Jedi employed to great effect a similar strategy to the one Sidious would use in 'modern' times on them. Formally neutral or even fighting on the cult's side, while they infiltrated, organized opposition at every level, and finally directly launched a coup against Pius Dea that destroyed them. In fact, much more effectively, given that the cult didn't have a resurgence like the Jedi did within a few decades of *their* greatest defeat. I'm not sure about going to bat so much for the Clone Wars-era Order considering the scope and scale of their failure to protect peace, justice, the Republic, or even their own actual selves, but the ending of this video takes a fair tack towards their dedication to the Republic.
ehy I love your work and your videos and for me you are one of the best star wars channels in youtube, I want to ask you what are your thoughts about star wars theory controversy that recently come out with star wars explained if you know the story
If the "darkside" should not exist, then way did the son existed. The force "gods" of the father, the daughter, and the son existed until anakin killed them. The son clearly represented the "darkside" of the force.
Yes the jedi should have never trained a child was literally created by the force as a response to plagues and sideus messaging with it. it's not like Palpatine would ever found out about anakin and turn him easier. Expesily given anakin couldn't be given back to his slave mother without literally being guilt of sending a child back into slavery or sending anakin to a orphanage.
Um your bias definatly shows . For one the fact that the Jedi decided to become so centralized is the lech pin in their own destruction. The Only Jedi to survive Order 66 where Yoda and 14 other members of the Jedi Order most of whom survived by sheer luck. All of whom where not at the Jedi Temple at the time. It is the same old story of the generals always fighting the last war. On which note the Battle of Geonosis proved that the Jedi are horrible commanders. They honestly wouldn't have been in the position of Generals if it wasn't for political moves that put these inexperienced galactic monks in a position of military leaderships.
Second thing with regards to the Sith wars and what the outcome would have been if the Jedi had not stopped the Sith. Well you only have to look at the Galactic Empire and how it provided security , economic mobility for everyone willing to work, etc. For the average civilian who wasn't a criminal or rebel life under the Empire was generally peaceful. Then bad decisions caused a minor rebellion to grow into a major problem.
The Mandalorian makes a good case for this factor about the Sith rule of the galaxy as the Empire.
Quote " The Empire improves every system it touches,Judge by any metric: safety, prosperity, trade opportunity, peace. Compare Imperial rule to what is happening now. Look outside. Is the world more peaceful since the revolution? I see nothing but death and chaos." -- The Client from the Mandalorian episode 3.
So apparently though the polar opposite of the Jedi the Sith aren't actually hell bent on destruction. It would seem that they simply want to control the galaxy unopposed. Are the Sith cruel and evil individuals yes. But if you had a time machine and went back in time to Germany prior to the Nazis losing the war and asked any common citizen under the nazis how they felt about Hitler and his leadership of the country . They would have said he's doing great for Germany. But today we all see the results of the atrocities committed outside of the public view.
If you were a common citizen you didn't see the brutal violence and atrocities committed in both the case of the Empire or Nazi Germany prior to the end of the war. Which note it's fairly obvious where the Inspiration for the Empire came from.
So the Sith as rulers wouldn't have been as bad for the average civilian. The Jedi never wanted to rule but ended up being involved in politics towards the end of their Order's existance. And because of their political position the members who weren't perfect individuals pulled the right strings to get themselves into the officer corpse of the GAR even though the Clone Commanders where far more qualified to lead their brothers than any of the Jedi were. The Order did become corrupt due to their involvement in politics not by any dark side influance or anything of that sorts but by being in the presences of corrupt people and having to walk in that world.
Was the entire order corrupt ? No . Individuals within the Order became corrupted over time. Starting with the lose of their ability to see what was truly going on with the force. That started their decline. So many of them started to get more into politics which well power corrupts , absolute power corrupts absolutely. You can't really stay pure in the force and be involved in the politics of the Republic. Count Dooku figured this out and it was part of why he left the Jedi Order. He became disillusioned with the Order and the Galactic Republic over time. Due to his belief that they were corrupt and ineffective, ultimately leading him to seek greater power by aligning himself with the Sith Lord Darth Sidious, who manipulated his discontent and offered him a path to change the galaxy through the dark side.
Count Dooku wasn't too fair gone he was manipulated into doing what he did. He believed he was doing what he did for the greater good of the galaxy and the force as a whole. However Anakin executed him without any form of trial after he was disarmed. Which btw is a war crime. As is pretty much everything else the Jedi did during the war. The source of Dooku's disillusionment with the Order came from him becoming increasingly frustrated with the Jedi Order's perceived inaction against the growing corruption within the Republic Senate.
Dooku saw what was coming to an extent and raised his concerns and was basically ignored so he left then he was found by Sidious who used the Jedi's feelings to make him a pawn. Yet the Jedi Order wasn't smart enough or perceptive enough to realize this was happening even though they knew full well the Senate was becoming increasingly corrupt. That is really their biggest flaw. Their lack of perception of what was going on around them. By the time they finally opened their eyes and saw the truth of the situation it was already too late .
What guess so
Centralization doesn’t seem like the issue. Granted, they pulled out of other regions of the galaxy making people forget what the Jedi really are like. Honestly though, Order 66 wasn’t effective because most of the Jedi were in one well known location, it was because most of the actual fighters were killed in the war or scattered and surrounded by Clones. If Anakin wasn’t leading the attack on the Temple, perhaps more than the handful of Jedi that did escape would have survived. Someone with Anakin’s knowledge of the Temple and strength in the Force and combat skills would be quite useful for that siege.
I really don’t think it’s ever a good idea to use the Nazis to try and justify the Empire. Yes, we understand and are sympathetic as to why people would support such regimes. They weren’t living in the best of times. However, of course people are going to remember both more for the Holocaust, the destruction of Alderaan, and other atrocities. These are state-sponsored massacres on unimaginable scales on innocent people. Why does a strong, centralized government have to commit atrocities? Where does it say a centralized government must always be a dictatorship? Let’s not forget both the Nazis and the Empire also invaded plenty of nations/people. The Nazis at least wanted to rule all of Europe and the Empire wanted the whole galaxy. For every time they tried to negotiate, there were always far more times they resorted to force and wiped out the old order and local culture.
So what exactly were the Jedi supposed to do about the Senate before Episode 1? March in and arrest every corrupt senator, people who were elected or at least are perceived to be elected? Become politicians themselves, something that would be highly distasteful to them and might set a precedent where only Jedi can be in politics? Leave the Republic, the only galactic-wide government which might then make it illegal for the Jedi to grow their ranks, not to mention make them look unpopular and become targets when Palpatine becomes chancellor? If you asked me, the Jedi were involved in politics the wrong way. They were servants bound to the government, but they had no political power. What I think they should have done is use the status of the Order to endorse and back politicians like Amidala, Organa, Mothma, and Chuchi. People listen to the opinions of the Jedi. Yes, the corporations will back their politicians harder, but the corporations will have to be careful with trying to use their power and wealth to pressure planets when there’s a better option to turn to.
With all due respect, do you even have any idea what type of galaxy Dooku wanted before he ran into Palpatine? Because I don’t. In Legends, he is basically just an Imperial given his bigoted views portrayed in the Episode 3 novel. Meanwhile in Canon, he certainly believes in a strong, new order replacing the Republic. However, we have little idea about his pre-Palpatine views. The best I can think is something like in Serenno, one monarch ruling over the people. Perhaps a strong monarch given Dooku’s fascination with the Dark Side. Even if he didn’t create this system in a cruel way, all it would take is one Sith to influence an heir to the throne instead of having to manipulate thousands of politicians.
Yes, we all know the Jedi Order could have done better and avoided Order 66 and the fall of the Republic. I’m seriously doubtful of thinking quitting the Republic and that the Empire was a better government are the answers though. If anything, it was the fall of the Jedi that symbolized the end of the Republic and the rise of the Empire, the death of an time of peace and democracy and the rise of war and tyranny. And the Empire no doubt sucked for non-humans just like the inequality between white people and other races. At best, the Empire resembles Cold War America if it went to the natural extreme such as crushing the Civil Rights Movement. That’s the Empire at its best. Why is it that imperfection translates to total failure in the eyes of fans? It’s always obvious that the worst flaws of the good guys are better than the total sum of the bad guys even if you take the latter’s good qualities into account. At least with the Republic and the Jedi Order, we can think of how they can do better while with the Empire and the Sith, evil is core to them. Remove the evil and you don’t have either of them.
@tristankawatsuma8962 Centuralization is how the next generation got murdered. They should have set up various bases around the galaxy so that if one was attacked the others would have time to either deal with it or vanish inside the underground saving the order to fight another day.
But they made it centralized to the point that Sidious only had to send Vader to one place to murder the future Jedi. And end the order effectively as an opposition force. It would have taken much longer to take our multiple places and allowed more to escape instead of just 15 out of around 10,000 Jedi. That's a massacre. That could have been prevented or lessened by not having everyone in a central location except those on the front lines.
Though I do disagree with some takes here, I do think a decent amount of the Jedi criticism stems from viewer’s perspective and not being fully aware of the limited perspective the Jedi had.
Overall this was a really interesting video, I really enjoyed it.
4:01 star wars does a very poor job of explaining the balance of the force, but they do mention "balance" being in the middle. In Star Wars rebels, you have the Ashla, the Bogan, and then the bendu, "the one in the middle" You also have the mortis gods. The daughter who embodies the light, the son who embodies the dark, and the father who is there to keep his children from destroying each other to maintain balance.
Problem you are missing is Rebels came out within the Disney era which interprets balance of the force very differently than George.
@@kingorange7739 It's still canon
@@Duskcosmog Ok it’s still canon in the licensing sense. But none of that reflects the intentions and established continuity from the original creator. If anything it is only indicative of how out of touch Disney is with understanding the force.
Even if we were to go by that, that only suggests the dark side isn’t harmful only if used by cosmic beings not prone to human (aliens included) emotions. Ordinary mortal beings still cannot use the dark side without succumbing to its destructive influence, thus bringing nothing but death and destruction. In essence the aspects of the dark side such as death, destruction, and suffering are not necessarily bad in it of itself. Those are natural parts of life, but those who use the dark side to inflict those aspects such as the Sith are bad.
@kingorange7739 It doesn't matter what lucas' intentions were he's not in charge anymore.
You have the ancient Je'daii order whose goal was to maintain balance in the force by never leaning too far into the Ashla or the Bogan, but to practice both and maintain balance. They did this for millinea until a force hound from the infinite empire crash landed and shook things up, then the 1st great schism happened where for some reason they gained a black and white mentality of the force, the Ashla won and exiled the members who praticed the Bogan. They then renamed the Jedi order. You also have Revan, who was so powerful in the force he could lean heavily into the dark without falling under its will. He also practiced the light. This caused some weird stuff to happen where there was then created a dark and light side version of revan. This was during when Lucas was in charge. This is now legends.
When Lucas was in charge, there were hints of grayness to the force. This was rarely sean because, for some reason, everyone either leaned into the light or the dark.
In Disney Canon, the force is a spectrum. The light side has a will that's more noticeable, and the dark side has a will as well that's more hidden. You can let the force flow you and practice the light, or you can control it until you control it too much that the darkside begins to control you and turn you into a creature of pure lust for power. You also have grey jedi who use both sides of the force. They lean more into the light so as not to fall under the will of the dark.
In Canon the balance of the force means to balance the light and dark. It's like Yin and Yang.
@@Duskcosmog Which is something Geetlys has already disproven. Most examples of beings who ride the line between the light and dark side, have either eventually rejected the dark side from realizing it is too much of a slippery slope or fall to the dark side’s corrosive influence. When George was in charge virtually none of his material hinted any kind of grayness towards the force. The films make this pretty clear cut. And ultimately George’s intentions do matter as they are conveyed in the original source material. As mentioned, Disney has effectively tried to retcon how the force works to fit their agenda of it.
Revan was someone who was literally out of balance from his tear of light and dark to the point it split his personality. Not a great example. The Jedaii order is a better example but when they eventually went extinct from their perception of the force generating too many dark siders. Which it did, since the schism was generated between those who exclusively used light vs those who exclusively used the dark. Those in the middle practically became none existent as they would either understand the slipperly slope the dark side brought or would become consumed by said darkness. Because ultimately the root of the light side and dark side come down to selflessness vs selfishness. Those are mutually exclusive paradigms. You cannot say you are trying to flow with the force naturally while also trying to enslave the force to your will.
Looks like a tasty video
Will of the force and for an artificial creature like a Droïd did they are beneficial ?
Did the force rob your sanity by :
Provoking neurose by repression for the light side.
Provoking psychopathic personality on darksiders.
Does the force by the superpowers it confers is not inherently destructive. Palpatine without powers being only Tarkin not so dangerous without sith favors.... And jedi without powers being not the providential man, crutch of the galactic republic interfering with it and leaving it in a weakened state.
Does the light side make you a slave of a greater power in exchange of uncanny abilities, and the dark side eat your sanity in exchange for power ?
Did the force is the end of free will , surrendering it to a deity ( will of the force ) or to the darker aspect of your personality becoming you own vilain: possibly consumed by anger and self loathing ( Darth Vader ) , greed and megalomania (Palpatine)...
The force is a problem and from my atheist perception, we must be outside of it to advance.
A jedi is a better neighbor than a sith but the two are not a free spirit they are only slaves ... of a nebulous entity ( jedi ) or their cravings ( sith ) ...
Eh. Luke’s Jedi order still better. Very balanced and life loving.
Yet it got destroyed
I'm not watching this long video. All I know is the Jedi like to fight 2 or more on 1. That is not honorable.
I don't think the Jedi care too much about honour, they just wanna get the job done, why potentially sacrifice lives when they could win by working together, I think Ghost Of Sushima or however it's spelt also talked about this and I agree with the main characters point of view that honour is weak and ineffective
I know that I am late for this because I have no knowledge about this until I saw this video. But here what I have to say:
1 You guys missed one thing about the Jedi Recruitment Practices. The Jedi are being unfair and biased. And a good example of this is shown when they recuited Oliviah Zeveron but abandon her sister, Elecia Zeveron, simply because Elecia's connection to the Force is not as strong as that of her sister's. And this led Elecia to join the Path of the Open Hand, leading the cult into the war against the Jedi for her own personal vengeance intentionally, causing the Night of Sorrows and ultimately led to the creation of the Nihil many generations later by recruiting a fanatic like Marda Ro into the Path of the Open Hand in the first place. None of these would have ever happened and they did not display bias just because Elecia's connection to the Force is not as strong as Oliviah. And if Elecia did flunk and ended up becoming one of the washouts, she will definitely live a good life as a member of the Agricultural Corps or the Medicine Corps with her own pension instead and definitely would not hate the Jedi as a whole or even hating her sister all.
2 The Jedi actively helped the Republic remaining as the sole major power in the known galaxy by crushing all of the Republic's oppositions, whether they are Sith Empires or not. This led to the Republic being too large to govern and the military being disbanded due to the lack of real enemy but space pirates to fight. Had the Mandalorians allowed to have their own galactic state, the Republic military will still existed and border raids between the Republic and the Mandalorians shall become the norm even if the governments of both sides are at peace with one another. As for the role of the Jedi in a galaxy divided like this, it's to negotiate for the truce after truce at the borders on various fronts between the local leaders on both sides of the borders while also traveling around the galaxy and help all those in needed such asthe refugees devastated by the raids between both sides or dealing with some pirate gangs and the Hutts who took advantage of these raids between the Republic and the Mandalorians. This way, the Sith will have no way of manipulating or even infiltrate the Republic and the Mandalorians in the first place since the Jedi constantly traveled around the known galaxy.
There is only one defence the Jedi need your honour. For all their imperfections the Jedi Order were the Guardians of Peace and Justice for over a 1000 years. And would've continued to have been if not been for the Sith. It was for this reason that Grandmaster Luke Skywalker vindicated the previous Order during the Swarm War.
For the last time using flame thrower isn’t a war crime both in Star Wars and in real life it’s only a war crime if you use it on civilians
Also also also, defending the jedi this time, the force ghost jedi didn't GET OUT OF being one with the force, they were just able to go back and forth between the natural state of the force and a form to help those living. You LITERALLY could not do it for selfish reasons, thats not how it works in the slightest. Being a force ghost is essentially the PEAK of being one with the force, not just being one with the force at all, ALL things are one with the force, theres a bit more to it when youre a force user tho.
I think all dead things are technically force ghosts, just can't appear or interact with the other plane. Makes sense to me.
RC didn't blamed the jedi's poor skills as generals for the too high casualties. They blamed their neglect of 'em that was seen as rooted in a view of clones as lesser beings than regular humans.
A view that was not entirely wrong eventhough it was generalizing that problem. The fact of jedi who were caring for them as individuals hardly helps, cuz they were also those jedi that became strongly opposed to the order's use of the clones. It actually is not true that the jedi were facing certain death for opposing the enlistment as soldiers.
There were numerous jedi who didn't agree to join the war n they werenlt tried 4 treason.
Also did the council know that palpatine knew that they were clear about them not to b soldiers as windu told him.
The act of enlistment as such alone should've not just b opposed by the - clone army or not, it should've maid the chancler very sus to ignore windu in that and the fear of accusation should never have been an acceptable deturrent. Just look how much bad the jedi allowed themself to do only through lettiing this on decision not to refuse, being driven by fear.
Specially the order 66 without chips was impossible, wouldn't they allowed themself to b pressed in that roll.
That early with a war just starting, that the core wasn't taking notice of up till it was over corruscant, the ppl weren't frightened enough to easily accept such claims as well as the hate of jedi wasn't bad enough either. Further was palpatine only just gotten into office n had to keep a reluctant n humble immage.
He had not the standing to boldly accuse the jedi of treason n also would still have needed trials for all. It's way harder to excuse their murder that way than if it's for them refusing to fight at the front or desertion from acact
my complaint against jedi are They do not Understand Psychology and Is the way they teaching, their members are way a lot of jedi. Eventually, fall to the dark side
And Being pacifistic They made themselves a weak in the force and Always imposed their pacifism on everyone else 🙄 If they never understood war or They kept making the same mistakes Of not having a power military For leaving the galaxy undefended with no military
Yeah gotta agree with the psychology bit, seems their training is practically one size fits all or "cookie cutter" training instead of taking in the natural instincts of each race (probably not until they get thier mentors) , brings back the old "what strange to the fly is normal for the spider" analogy comes to mind.
My issue isnt that the jedis way of coming to a decision often lead to bad outcomes or isnt relaible but the fact is that the jedi put ALL of their eggs in that basket and when it disappeared, they ran around like chickens with their heads cut off for decades on end and instead of using EVERY other form of observation and perspective throughout the galaxy to make decisions, they CONTINUE to put FULL faith in the force and its will. And ill be honest, if god suddenly one day revealed himself and was known to be real and you could converse with him, OF COURSE youd rely on him for literally every problem, its an all knowing entity beyong comprehension. But doing that would be DEVASTATING for your personal life, as youre just blatantly ignoring literally everything else around you, or at least see it as FAR less respectable than this other method. Which leads to nonaction and negatives and obstacles tend to grow and persist. Like if your lawnmower stops working you dont just GIVE UP, or even idk start cutting it by hand instead of buying a new mower or paying someone else just out of sheer loyalty or trust in this mower is just illogical to me.
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I strongly disagree with you that Anakin shouldn’t have been trained. I do recognize that the Jedi should’ve given him to a more experienced master, as I firmly believe Anakin would’ve done well under the guidance of Qui Gon Jinn. Obiwan just didn’t have the experience to train Anakin the way he needed to be, and while he tried to the best of his ability, he was ultimately a brother to Anakin whereas he needed a father. Yoda, Mace, Qui Gon, Master Fay, Master Dooku, Yaddle, ect. Anyone of these individuals could’ve done a better job at raising and training Anakin, and I know there are even more individuals who could’ve done even better but Obiwan wasn’t the best choice they had at their disposal. They had Space Jesus plop into their lap, divinity itself literally being presented to them in a manner in which they could use it, a prophecy declaring their eventual victory alongside him and they still fumbled.
TL/DR: Anakin needed to become a Jedi, the Jedi should’ve had someone other than Obiwan train him.
Star Trek....
This guy is just a Jedi apologist.
"the jedi could have seen the plan coming and couldn't have done anything about it" is a wildly incorrect take. At multiple steps, you can stop sidious simply by exposing him. Knowing his plan is exactly what the Jedi failed to do. They failed to plan for this conflict, specifically. That's exactly true on its face.
I disagree with a lotta takes nearly ten minutes in, and in ways I find it hard to articulate. But that is blatant. It absolves them of ANY responsibility by acting like Darth sidious is ACTUALLY an unstoppable force of nature.
If the Jedi WERE allowed to fall in such a way, surely that is the will of the force allowing its servants to bite it. If Sidious actually IS a Force Of Nature, it's because he's part of the Force. Part of the whole plan. But no. He's just a really powerful guy. And they definitely are unworthy to have underestimated the sith.
I know canonically this is all true but its so weird that this video reads so much like historical documents massive religious orginisations
didn't the jedi kill off the other foce user orders it was in a book about how all of them meet on a planet then then jedi kill them off. if you watch other star wars video like generation tech he has a video that said the yoda knew about the sith long before in the acolyte
If I go just after the book "The Jedis Path" that is set directly after the Ruusan Reformations, then no, they coexisted with other lightside institutions and even sent thier pupils to learn from those. I doubt that would have changed over the cause of the Republic Golden Age
Damn, more than half of these were Jedi bad memes taken way to seriously, people who didn't understand the Jedi and how they worked while making their claims, and people who had very visible distane for the order and made very one sided claims using "evidence" that was taken out of context or took an existing event that was actually fine and twisted it in a way that made the Jedi look bad lol.
The Jedi was an extremely flawed but necessary power that was ultimately a source of salvation. The issue is the sith slowly worked against them and chipped away from them century after century. The lot of it wasn't a planned long gamish attack, but attacks that kept crippling the order and eventually breaking. That being the loss of their second planet causing them to be based on Curasant and no longer able to threaten the Senate with leaving the Republic because they were on the planet that was the heart of the Republic. They lost their bargaining chip and had to slowly adapt into their new situation which thanks to them no longer being isolated on their own planet doomed them to eventually be deeply integrated into the Republic and the messy politics that ran it.
What made matters worse eas was their temple was built on a dark side Nexus comparable to the star map in a way. The Jedi of ol was able to depower it and stop its corrupting influence then decided to build a temple over it. As the years ticked by the temple grew, slowly building on top of each other abandoning the lower sections and almost entirely forgetting about them, only a few Jedi knew of these now vast catacombs and how to navigate them.
At some point Palp discovered the existence of the Nexus and repowered it. This act clouded the force and dampened the Jedi's ability to forsee the force as it was quite literally under their nose. This pretty much set the stage for their fall. There was no way of going back and it doomed them to a future where they became less and less attached to the force and was eventually massacred. There was almost no way the Jedi could have seen this ultimate long game happening and work against it.