Jin mains when Jin gets nerfed: NOOOOOO you cant just nerf the protagonist Gigas mains when Gigas (Season 2) got nerfed: Understandable. Have a great day.
I am a hardcore Jin main, ,and i dont know tf this rant's bout. i dont see any nerfs.. all i see is adjustment. People who are whining about Magic4 nerf shows how much they rely on just one move from Jin's bag of tools.
@@ShiniGamiAD what? Then take away Steve's Back 1 Kazuya's Df2 And so on Bcz yeah obviously Steve and Kazuya mains don't rely on only one move, do they?
@@prateekpujara5742 you can‘t compare these moves tho jin‘s standing 4 is 11f kazuya‘s df2 and steves b1 is 14f kazuya‘s df2 is -12 steve‘s b1 is -14 jin‘s standing 4 is safe on block and saying they rely on only these moves isn‘t true both moves are there to frame trap and be sure when to use it so that they can get either the plus frames on hit or get the ch
@@inugamifenrir okay yes thanks for the correction but even if that is the case both of these two characters have a completely different playstyle while steve can poke you away its more crucial for him to hold back or get that one plus frame hit that will frame trap you for that ch b1 while jin has so many playstyles and options for jin its rather like either getting a frametrap counterhit or he could shut down someone stepping with standing 4 it has alot of versatility while steve‘s b1 is almost always a ch launcher since steve doesn‘t have anything good in terms of launchers
JIN: *GETS NERFED* TMM: "Oh no....anyway" (edit: Don't misunderstand me, guys. I'm not a tmm hater. Just wanted to make a meme. Didn't knew people will actually like it)
points of contention ff4 nerf this was Jin's main mid oki tool and nerfing it implies we are intended to be using ff3 more, which is more like a mishima, not less, so it actually does not give him a more distinct identity but quite the opposite. in general the season 4 changes have encouraged a more mixup oriented playstyle for Jin, making him more mishima-like overall - which would be fine, if his ff3 actually had any range and his hellsweep wasn't considerably more seeably reactable than any other hellsweep in the game parry Jin's parry is superior to Leroy's only in edge cases or at the absolute highest levels of play. Yes, it parries some moves that are normally unparriable, but the ability to auto-parry and auto-punish entire strings is far superior in the majority of situations. calling Jin's parry the best parry in the game is like calling taunt jet upper the best launcher in the game. like yes, that is technically correct, but this is reality not magical christmas land. in the majority of real gameplay situations, Leroy's parry is far more useful and powerful punishment tools and WS launcher 14 frame WS launchers are nothing special, and neither is having decent range on one. hell, you even point out here that your own character's WS launcher is a frame faster. same goes for decent punishment. having a launcher at 15 is normal, having a wall bounce at 14 is nothing out of the ordinary considering it's a high high. pointing out that Jin has decent basic tools shows that he's an average character with no standout moves. there's really nothing broken about him to show, unlike with characters like Leroy and Fahkumram. other characters with specific super useful tools that cover a wide range of situations include Hwoarang, Devil Jin and yes, also Kazuya. these characters are generally able to rely on a few powerful core moves. the reason this is not the case for Jin is that he lacks anything like DJ vortex, Kaz df2 or Marn's Leg. he USED to have f4 and db4, that was his identity. instead, he now has to go for mishima style mixups but without the necessary tools to do so sufficiently effectively f4 speaking of f4, I notice that you again call it one of the best moves in the game, citing that it is a counter hit launcher without demonstrating yourself performing the pickup from launch. the obvious reason for this is that actually doing so is almost impossible and your audience would see that clear as day if you actually attempted to show the combo. the only player in the world who can get the pickup from CH f4 consistently is CherryBerryMango. even Book won't attempt it every time. if the best Jin players in the world can't guarantee consistency from this combo, and most players can't even hit the pickup in practice mode, is it really realistic to call this a launch at all? when players used to call Jin f4 one of the best moves in the game, they were referring to the version that counter hit launched without Zen transition, since it also functioned that way as a keepout move and pressure tool, something which cannot be said of the Zen cancel version. without no Zen CH combo, Jin f4 is nothing special, just like the rest of his movelist, and unlike the key moves of many if not most other characters counter hit launchers if there is one aspect of Jin's game that has consistently seen nerfs this is it. as I mention above, f4 and db4 were core moves important to Jin's identity and playstyle, and removing their consistency was arguably the biggest mistake Namco could have made with the character. the CH tools he has left are, like the rest of his toolkit, decent enough but nothing special. standing 4 is fast but duckable just like any other magic 4. b3 is a decent mid but not the fastest and very steppable. df2 would be a natural hit launch for other characters but only CH launches for Jin, which like the majority of his moveset is good enough but just pretty meh. summary if you're seeing a theme here it's that while Jin does have decent tools for the most part, he does not have any standout moves like most other characters who are considered high tier. the difficulty in playing Jin isn't just that playing Jin is difficult, or even that playing certain other, very strong characters is comparitively easy both mechanically and in terms of gameplan. the issue is that in addition to having to use a wider array of moves due to not having an easy set of just a few identity-defining, super powerful moves, Jin players also have to contend with the fact that most of their character's most essential tools are either average or below average in their utility even for that move's intended purpose. so we have people playing a character who requires very lateral thinking to determine the right move for the right situation, often with an execution barrier to performing them, and even then half of those tools are subpar for that situation - up against players who only need to know a handful of moves for all situations, situations in which those far more versatile and frequently easy to perform moves are generally better than the Jin player's supposedly perfect tools anyway. this is why you see Jin players struggling online - he might not seem underpowered, since he appears to have no weaknesses, but not having any strengths is a weakness in its own right. in a meta where it's normal for high tier characters to possess overpowered tools, having average tools is underpowered by comparison, no matter how complete your set of them is for all these reasons I don't consider the idea that Jin is quote unquote "still really good" to be a valid assessment. I think it ought to be clear to anyone who has spent a significant amount of time playing him since season 3 that he is only just above average at this point. Season 2 Jin was more or less perfect. he had powerful, unique tools that gave him a distinctive identity and could convert consistently from most launches, but still had to perform high execution techniques for maximum damage. he felt like the well rounded, consistent character he should be while at the same time still being hard to master due to the variety of gameplan options necessary for him to learn to succeed. he wasn't being forced into unsafe mixups using subpar moves against overpowered characters that could just steamroll him with their favourite five jank techs tl;dr: TMM, if you're reading this, I challenge you to pull off a full CH f4 conversion in a real match just once. I bet you can't.
Absolutely on-point. Jin is just an average character with high execution demands now. Very well said, and TMM is either biased or unable to see reality objectively.
You taught me how to play Jin from your old Jin guide (TT2 days) and I never thought you hated the character. Jin nerfs in season 4 I never thought it killed the character, sure it's different, but I don't think it too much of a change that with a bit some time and practice we all used to it. Great video showcasing he still a strong character, with loads of great moves and his big combo damage.
Jin's FF3 is much slower and has less range, not really comparable to Kazuya. Jin was always gonna get nerfed, it's okay to nerf his tools, but nerf to the point that some of them get inconsistent it's what is not ok. They nerfed F4 to the point that CH from it pick up it's extremely hard to pick up from, now they gave an off axis screw on CH4. CH4 it's a node to Ryu Narushima, which is the Jin, Kaz and Hei, mocap artist, and his Roundhouse kick used to give that crumple stun animation in real life Jin had up to season 2, all this talk about identity and how come you are not aware of this, if there was something original in Jin's 4 was that crumple stun, and i wasn't even mad with the small damage on Season 1, they could've just adjust the animation for the pick up to work against all chars and would still be a better buff than the season 2 CH4 full combo, imo. The season 4 barely started and ppl are already requesting to nerf Jin's EWHF next. This just shows how bad some ppl at tekken really to the point of requesting a complete redesign of the character. Besides, Jin lost a lot of his tools going to tag 2 and tekken 7, he lost his oki, he lost his omen, he lost his KI charge mechanic, he lost reveals, he lost B21 pickups after certain moves hits and now he is steadily losing his right leg. F4 hitting grounded was nerfed, then pushback was increased, now FF4 has no plus frames (I don't care with the mishima comparison, he is half mishima) and now 4 lost the most iconic animation he had. If Jin gets a launch the reward should be consistent, i didn't need to work extremely hard to get combos off my correct reads if what you do is keep running into his moves, but as someone said, if you have execution then what is the point of playing Jin? Better off playing Devil Jin and Kazuya at this point the rewards are much better and consistent, you have to go to the stress of thinking too much on the tools you use like Jin. When will this stop? Kazuya got buffed to the point that you can't barely step him, but no one says anything, Devil Jin got his uf4 B4 back and no one says anything. Jin gets a consistent reward off a punish (BLAH BLAH he shouldn't have this) i Really wish the ppl that get so dictating on tekken balancing should really try to main this character instead of pretending and do half assed demos in theory of how good x y z tools are.
Also he talks about jins parry, despite it being good it is locked behind super high execution and very hard read. If you start using jins parry as a panic move that is a sure easy way to get launched and some moves are still safe even if you parry them, everybody complains about leroy's parry but noone complains about jins parry because unlike Leroy's baby easy mode execution not even the pro jin players are able to make it part of their strats let alone online jin players use them.
You're just another fanboy.. Jin's electric was never meant to launch, look at t4, t5, ttt2... Why is that move a launcher?? Why is his d4 -12 now?? Magic 4?? Again, this had never given full combo until t7...
As a Jin main, I agree with you since the start and never complain about his state. Jin is pretty well rounded but you need to know what you’re doing with. He had everything you need for every situation but this means you have to be able to adapt yourself quickly. And now plz, TMM (and everyone in the commentary), I would love to have your analyze on Kunimitsu. I know she’s released since just a few day but I’m in love with her and want to know your feeling about her. P.S : Excuse me if my english is bad, I do my best to be understandable.
@@SmokinSkyzoStyle well i tried her she seems fun but lack good poking lows don't have good counter hit, high crushes and she don't have good way to get her strong backturn stance Except for that she is very fun and good character tho it look likes a lot but it is only 25% that is she missing i like her so i will keep playing her good luck.
Hello @Happy Skyzo, I've broken down Kunimitsu II and I also love the character (been playing Kunimitsu I in my second team in Tag 2) They made her very mix up heavy compared to her mother, but she still has decent pokes like d/f+4, d/f+1, d/b+4 and d+1 (although they nerfed d/f+4's range but made it i12). She can be stepped to the right, like her mother, but she has fast, good high tracking moves (f+3+4, standing 3), also, d/f+1, d+1 BT+d+2 and d/b+4 track to her weak side. Her mid tracking moves are relatively unsafe, unfortunalely (b+2 was one of my favorites but they made it a fast power crush at -11 on block) the one with best frames is her BT+1+2, which is -2 on block and a really good move overall. f+3 SET+2 is also a good option, but it can be sidewalked right if the opponent knows the timing. There's also WS+2 which is safe but has poor range. She has unseeable lows, including a slow FC+d/f+2 that's -11 on block with poor range, and her traditional FC+d/f+3 that's no longer a launcher (gives ff+2. Her punishment is quite good (Standing: 10f: 1,2,2 (+6) or i9 ff+4,2 (KD) 12f: 4,3 into mixups 13f: f+2,3 15f: u/f+4,3 or d/f+2) (While crouching: i11:WS+4 i13: WS+1,1 i14: WS+2,4 i20: u/b+3+4) Her main problem IMO is that her + moves are really slow (u+3+4, 1,1,4 or BT+1,2,4) and quite easy to step, second being she has below average damage (on open field I managed to max at 68 with u/f+3,4, f+4~f SET+1, f+4~f SET+1,2,1 S! run, f+4~f SET+u/f+4 which is hard; and her classic 1, d/f+1 d+2,1,2,1+2 at the wall is rather low damage with a -13 oki which is real bad, but I'll be testing other options later). In general, I could barely hit the 80 damage mark with a full launch + wall combo. [EDIT]: f+4~f, SET+1, QCF+1 is her most damaging ender, and works after long combos if you can connect f+4 after tailspin. u/f+3,4, f+4~f SET+1, f+4~f SET+1,2,1 S! run, f+4~f SET+1, QCF+1 does 71 damage and gives good oki. I still find her wall combo enders lacking in frame advantage: d/b+2,4,2 and d/f+1,2,2 are both -5, so the best frames with was with BT+1,2,1 which is about +3 but isn't very damaging. I find you have to sacrifice damage for oki which I really like, but makes her pale in comparison to the rest of the cast. To be honest, just like her mother, her combo potential is good in open areas, but she struggles at the wall. You'll have to get creative with setups that don't rely on full wall combos, and I think there's some good stuff there (1 d/f+1 is a good setup from jumping behind the opponent, SSR before gives you backturned dickjab ws+2,4 into +12, also from dead center you can delay hopkick 3 for a 4,3 +6 guaranteed setup on quick roll right) Hope this helps and be warned I might have made some mistakes with frames and such, but overall, I really like her design and playstyle.
I'm fine with Jin nerfs in general, hitting Magic 4 was just my favourite move when it came to the animation and feeling of satisfaction. The way jin retracts his leg after the hit with the zoom in just looked so nice.
The animation, The loud bang! The Zoom in! And how Jin recovers by retracting his leg nailed it for me. I'll certainly miss that, but they could have maintained the Zoom in, so it would be reminiscent of D.Js forward forward 4
@@SuccessfulMentality94 I guess you ''took it personally'' thats fine ....some people can take jokes......mainmans dry cleaning is ready to be picked up....get on your job
@@JIX9ISLER1986 that’s comedy, I’m the one taking offense lol. I just acknowledged how your comment didn’t follow in line with what was said at all. In other words...the joke was shit. Troll harder bro 😂
The problem with Jin's pokes have always been his reach. They buffed ff3 1,2 so that it jails, but go into lab and you'll see that many times his 1 simply whiffs. 2,1,4 his primary lockdown string, about 40% of the time the 1 will whiff at range 0. The only thing you need to do against a Jin pressuring with these tools is backdash. Jin has good pressure with his brain-dead easy 1,2 mixup with 3 or 4, but it's not a guaranteed mix-up; fuzzy ducking after 1,2 makes either choice an option select and while the 4 option creates space, the 3 option gives no frame advantage. Since it's back to neutral after either option, the pressure is all mental. In terms of genuine mid pressure, all he has now is f3~3, which comes out extremely slow, or f4 from range, which, in this video you clearly don't even attempt to do the CH combo, especially not without a ZEN stance transition - the shit's hard and inconsistent. In this video I hear alot of talk about character identity, but all they've done with this patch is meld Jin into the identity of other characters. Other than his extremely good (but steppable) bf2 strings, or his still very good d4, he's fallen into the same mixup pressure for non-competitive online players as a Dragunov, Kazumi, or Bob - but all of these characters have easier mixup tools and don't have as disjointed of a gameplan in neutral. In terms of long range pressure - with his right leg nerfs he's forced to pressure and look for whiff punishes like a Mishima with EWHF, and he still doesn't have the same whiff recovery buff on that option as other Mishimas. The point is, sure these nerfs add character by forcing Jin to be played a certain way, but it's a bit paradoxical: The reason Jin's 4 options were so strong is that they made up for his absolute shit reach from his jab-starter pressure tools. Nerfing these forces Jin to play a more execution-heavy, long-range whiff punish game where other Mishimas, Kazumi, Alisa, and now Julia are the stars of the show.
@@damionbaxter4912 No worries. Jin is still a very powerful character if you have the execution. But, the problem is that with each subsequent change to his character, if you have the execution you're better off not playing Jin if that makes sense? That's the paradox. TMM makes points that sound good, but when we look at the character more objectively, his statements about character identity or his demonstration of how Jin is still really strong don't play out. When I look back at how long it took him to get to TGP with Jin in S3 and how non-optimally he played at times compared to my standards and many other Jin players on stream (no knock to TMM, he's still a very good Mishima player) I don't think he's the voice of reason on this, especially with how well Kazuya got treated this patch.
@@hasnoku yeah I get what you mean. Tmm is right jin does need most of his tools to be good but when you make those tools less and less useful he loses his identity and becomes more in line with the rest of his family not separate.
@@hasnoku im a filthy tekken casual, ill be the first to admit this... but I think a lot of people seriously overrate Jin. I dont know the game well enough to exactly pinpoint why, but... Getting wins with Jin just *feels* harder than a lot of other characters. And I've labbed a TON. I know all his good moves, strings, I can electric and whiff punish, I know high damage combos, I'm not a total scrub, I just dont play every day. That being said, theres something about Jin that feels a lot more difficult to use and win with than some of the other characters you've mentioned. It feels like you need to try harder to attain similar results than other characters, and like everyone knows, you need good execution. Idk, maybe that doesn't make sense and I should just git gud, but thats just an observation I've made as a philthy casual trying to main Jin
I don't care that you say he's really good. A lot of players like me and you have worse results with him than with other characters. I think this is core of the issue. They lowered his power level without changing his entry barrier / skill floor / difficulty, which is pretty high.
Jin is not just a character, he is a commitment. You will have to commit to Jin and be serious with him to get wins. He is one character who actually requires reflexes, brother.
He spouts identity like how "patriotic" Americans spout democracy. What's that? They found oil on mars!? Perhaps those martians will be interested in our democracy! What? Qudans and other Devil Jin fans are having fun with wraith kick again?! We should introduce them to identity!
He’s not wrong though. Jin was too strong. He needed nerfs regardless of how much someone preaches about “identity” or not. Stop being imbeciles and look at the facts. Jin was too strong... I dont know how you Jin sympathizers think... smh
If you're going to use a high to try and gain frame advantage you'd also need something to counter ducking attempts. I would guess f,f+2 or f,f+3 would serve that end (and either CD 3 or see if you can just tag them with the wider hitbox of EWHF if they try to step those moves).
I don’t think being versatile is uninteresting, the problem is making him OP at everything instead of making him okay or just good at everything. Honestly, they could’ve actually mad Jin bad, but they didn’t. He’s still viable, there’s nothing to complain about, except maybe ff4. Coming from a Jin main by the way.
One suggestion not enough people emphasize...try practicing placing the 2 right between the forward and the down. Once you get the pattern down the electric will come out much more deliberately for all mishimas.
It's funny every says it's not that hard but guess what electric out of sidestep or wave dashing or even backdash is pretty hard. They say practice but just know your gonna have to practice a looooong time. Just doing electric from neutral is easy yeah but to really learn how to electric properly is what I assume your talking about.
"Enormously strong". Are people really ready to abandon ship because of a few nerfs? I thought he was designed to be Jack of trades/master of none? What exactly makes him so unplayable now? Good video MainMan. Yeah hes not easy, but dedication can be rewarding with him.
@@pro178 ah so you're saying Jin is bare bones because hes got no glaring strengths to compensate against someone who specializes? His parry is nice tho.
@@pro178 You gonna say a Hwo or Lei is jack of all trade? Many characters rely heavily on their gimmicks and we all know that locks them down to a certain playstyle. Sure Jin doesn't excel at any certain playstyle, but having the ability to cover all bases means you can always adapt. Sure adapting can be complicated due to roster size and learning the habits of your opponents, but he's the perfect character to do that with. He's only difficult because he isn't a flowchart character.
Gonna shut down main man's entire opinion on jin rn, I know you don't hate jin but please tell me how this is strong cause I don't see the strong character I use to know, All I see is T5 jin with no mental alertness to atleast give him some sort of actual contrast, In the beginning of T7 there was a character here with versatility, strength and poise and it was very much defined not only in his character but in his game play (If you don't use f4), This "Identity" thing is just a crock of sugarcoated bullshit and if they really want to keep his identity which in reality his identity is supposed to be "Don't fuck with me or I'll end you" has gone to "Ok so I'mma just wait for this punish..." Because you have forgotten one very crucial detail in this plot and it's that jin might have all these things but there are already characters, in the game who do this exact same thing that jin does but better, Hell even Lars can play the waiting game better than jin in season 3 because when he does he makes you pay for it, Suddenly your at the wall and you have to guess, the only stage for sure I know jin can go wall to wall in was the mishima estate AND THAT BITCH SHORT AS HELL, Also "Note the range on WS2 it's 14 frames" Sure meanwhile Kaz's is the same frames, Not only can you literally just throw it out, It rewards you for doing so, Trust me I know, Mixing people up with it is fun. "Oh launching hellsweep" Cute 51 damage meanwhile the devil within over here can wall carry after the damn thing into B21 heavens gate, Know what, I legit dare you to do this, Compare gigas to jin, Cause from what I have seen Gigass he is no longer Gigass he is what is name represents now Giga, Cause people don't believe me when I say this character is dying, There was so much more tech and so much more versatility back then and now alot of that technical identity is gone.
geese is dependent of low high or mid, with a half circle input in a split reaction timing while jin's covers high and mid with an easy b2+4 though. Just be ease of execution, i think jin's is better than geese's.
@Rheinard you have to look at from ease of use. If you can hit a parry more reliably then that makes it better. If you have a parry thats stronger once it lands, but you can't pull it off as much in game and its not as practical then its really not the best. Especially at higher levels where you do want something thats safer (even if it can't punish everything, but im pretty sure most parrys cant)
So that's why after Season 2 they decided to nerf Jin in order to mitigate that, only to later add Leroy who was exactly that but x100 and now again with Bob in Season 4.
Firstly, by no means is Jin weak, even in Season 4. The nerfs he got in S3 were fair, and brought him down a notch from being slightly over the top in S2. However i'm genuinely curious as to what the logical justification was to nerf him again. Jin is not an underachiever in a general sense, but if you take a look at things objectively, and narrow things down specifically to the top tier characters in the game; he is arguably the BIGGEST underachiever in terms of both usage and performance in Competitive play, as well as statistically having the second worst win rate in Online play. Perhaps what perplexes me most is that within the top tier bracket, we have characters like Steve, Paul, Zafina, Julia and even Akuma that did not appear to get hit as hard as Jin did in S4, despite them clearly being the most dominant characters in Season 3, which begs the question as to what really was the need to further nerf Jin again? I believe if he stayed exactly the same as he was in S3, he would have still been balanced and fair in Season 4. Even though Jin is the the most well rounded character next to Leroy, the difference is Jin takes effort and a high degree of fundamentals to utilize to his max potential, especially his Parry. Whereas Leroy as we've all seen, takes next to none and that's why there were 7 of him in a Grand Final.
If gigas had an exploit that let him kill you off of just his jab it would still be too strong even on a bottom tier. Jin had options that were to strong. There’s nothing else to it. Pick rates are the worst thing to ever use as evidence. They’re just supplemental material for existing evidence.
Your the first persons opinion, I agree completely about Jins nerfs in season 4.. I agree season 3 jins nerfs were fair and just.. that back/down 4 counter hit launcher was mad ridiculous, and needed to be nerfed AND THATS ITT!! Sheesh like, Jin is already a hard character to master.. I played him three years straight and I just got to red ranks with him.. and then harada had to take my suzaku away 😭😭.. Nevertheless, I agree a season 3 jin moving into season 4 untouched.. Would have been a well rounded jin and balanced.. If I’m wrong then why didn’t devil jin get nerfed as heavy.. that’s all I have to say..
@@Neogears1312 I can assure you Gigas would not be considered bottom tier if he had such a thing lol. So, what metrics are they using exactly to determine whether a character is too weak or strong then? I'm pretty sure that one of the biggest reasons Leroy got nerfed was due to the fact he was literally being picked by everyone and also winning every tournament when he released due to how broken he was. Jin was similar to that back in Tekken 4, but not even remotely close to that in Tekken 7. So what else? Community opinion? In Season 3, Jin was hardly complained about or even considered a problem compared to the likes of Akuma, Geese, Leroy, Fahk, Steve, Paul, Zafina, Julia etc. It doesn't add up, i'm genuinely curious as to the logic behind their decisions here. Akuma has been one of the most complained about characters since Season 2, yet he is still able to do everything in Season 4 that the community have been complaining about and will continue to do so.
@@Neogears1312 Gigas is an extremely strong character when it comes to profiting off of hard reads and T7's new rage mechanic, but you're hypothetical is completely out of left-field. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. What option did Jin have that was "too strong" that was effectively addressed by the nerfs?
You repeatedly guarantee 100% that jin is horrendously OP even though there's nothing I've seen in all the tekken I've watched that suggests that is the case, even though he's stupidly hard to play. I can't get past red even though im in blues with other characters. You just keep talking about how good he is until there's nothing left. Yeah, he has a great parry - that's almost impossible to confidently utilise against similarly skilled players without getting baited and launched. You literally stated that the frame trap that every mishima shares SHOULD be taken away because it makes him more unique?? Almost every single good move hes had (that also makes him unique) has gotten nerfed except his electric. I just don't get it, I normally completely agree with your opinion on other characters. Kazuya and dj keep getting buffed but that's completely fine? If i could see one convincing video of him dominating a good player playing a good character in a high placement tournament I'd happily stop whining
He literally said that the DJ buff was questionable. And plus, if every character dominated tournaments, the game would be in a wayy worse place than it is now. Jin is fine, maybe even still op. You never see Xiaoyu players complain. You never see gigas players complain that their character doesn’t “dominate” tournaments. Please calm down. Jin does perfectly fine in almost every level of play. Stop complaining and be grateful.
Look, Jin is, canonically, a Kyokushin karate character. Each of his moves has a purpose. his forward four is a traditional mid-hitting front-kick. it is meant to interrupt, to create space, and to build your own momentum while halting your opponent's, while keeping them at a distance. His neutral 2 is more of a "foot stop"...a quicker but less powerful version meant more for interrupts. the corpse thrust (down 1) is a favorite of mine for knocking a target down when they are approaching from long range. Check out ThatBlastedSalami's channel for a great Jin guide. I studied the crap outta that when just getting started with Jin and went from only being able to do really simple combos (think hop kick or cancan to kazama turning kick or 1-2-3/1-2-4/2-1-4 simple) to his bread-and-butter (which is MUCH more complex) being my, well, bread and butter, and will likely study more. I can now cancel from cds/zen into a demon-paw or forward forward four with or without backstepping no prob, or into a LLRK, wind hook fist (working on electric from all directions), or "wind uppercut" (and go from that launcher into the bread and butter) and am still growing beyond that. Offline I am I believe at or past Tekken Emperor. Online...2nd or 3rd dan, I think (Treasure battle is my thing, but yes I absolutely have success with Jin there), with a surprisingly decent record all things considered. All this as just an OK player at best. So, does that help? If I being no pro at all can main Jin and make you think before approaching me, then surely someone with skill can main him. And guess what? They do. Book is one of the best Tekken 7 players out there and uses Jin. Same with CherryBerryMango and a handful of others.
@@thathottstuff5075 but that is not true Jin don't do fine as he told u in this video he has one of the worst win rates and nobody is saying gigas is op but they say Jin is all the time what other character do people say is top tier who has a bad win rate and has won almost nothing he brings up geese and akuma but they was domain and in top 8 every tournament so not the same
@@christopherjones7023 I agree but look what they be doing compered to what Kazumi geese akuma or doing how are they not in top 8 more than alisa or eddy player's he is a way better character right he is op top tier right
Whats up with jins parry being called god tier? On paper his moves seem good, hell then Yoshi's flash 6 frame launcher would make yoshi ss+ tier then. I don't see people complaining about jins parry being op but everyone cries about leroy's parry, because application is easier with that then with jins parry. You can't use jins parry as a panic tool and only use it if you have a super god tier read on your opponent.
@@pekkagenesis4802 yoshis normal flash is a 6 frames launcher on normal hit, does that make him ss+ tier? no because its application is hard to do so, just like jins supposedly god like move called parry.
Oh, that's good but it has nothing on Bryan's b,b+4, you really need to compare the two lmao. That move is maddeningly cheap used as a round ender because of the ridiculous range/tracking/active hitbox. The moves are pretty much used identically too.
Why is it that only you (TMM) complains about Jin every season? He's too good, I'm glad they nerfed him because it helps his "identity". I don't hear KingJae, LilMajin, K-Wiss, Rip, CBM, or countless other pros better than "You" that say anything about his moveset; every single season. It's only you man. Why is that?
Honestly Jin is one of the strongest characters in tekken I've mained him for a while now and the only thing about is that hes hard at first which is actually a good thing because all the Ls ive taken in the past are paying off now I rarely see anyone playing my character as well as I do and that's something I'm proud of
jin main here, i watch your vids and they are great :) i think his B1 stance does a decent job in crushing highs. even gives you a 80+ damage combo with 1+2 if you manage to get a good read on your opponent's high. B1 might not be a perfect crushing tool but i don't think jin should have much built in crushing in his moves, it'd go against his identity
People complaining about the combo damage on Jin's sanding 4's combo cause without being able to screw it does around 56-58 dmg. In the meanwhile here we Feng mains are, playing with 54-60dmg combos even with screws and everything lol
I don't think anyone would mind someone like TMM getting it earlier. We just think people like TBS and few other content creators should have got it too.
he didn't even do anything with it but ok. he put out videos 1 whole day before release, and they just went over the selling points that we already knew.
Hey TMM I am desperately BEGGING you to do this exact same video with Steve. There are great videos of him from you and other youtubers like the Complete Breakdown video from Blasted Salami, but I feel like when you do explanations like this the advice sticks better and feels more real and applicable. I am sure you're busy but a video like this with Steve would just be HUGE. Thank you👏
As a Jin main (now a dirty kuni fanboy) my problem was going on autopilot with him. His tracking moves and fast poke strings made me forget movement. It took me few months and after exploring different characters (kaz, hei, ak, alisa, zafina) I went back to Jin and it felt so good with my new view about movement and poking. F4 and standing 4 are just soooo good and now that they buffed 2,1,4 oh my god that is exactly the thing he needed!! Love it! Jin is just so cool! ^^
so ? guess what jin still has strengths that make him also a „god“ its just that now its more precise on your movie choice either use the move that should be used or get hit
@@BEER-OTFG the point is that he is covering a character that he really could care less about because his characters are still top 5 dead or alive and he will continue to win with all of his character traits intact even if they have less "identity" than jin or other characters.
@@BEER-OTFG also I wish tekken was about using the correct move at the right moment however we have to deal with frames and hotboxes that are inconsistent to say the least, only virtual fighter can hold that title.
@@deanbrooks7297 top 5 ? kazuya is by no means a top 5 option sure he now is definitely in the top 10 but come on and guess what ? he still has his identity and has big flaws geese also became a lot worse just look at the changes yourself and you will see that its quite drastic and it was to be expected anyways all characters that were at the top in s3 got nerfed someone like jin was pretty predictable to be worse since he still had oki tools like ff4 that were huge on block which didn‘t make sense since that character never had god oki in tekken 7
@@deanbrooks7297 unfortunately that is true for tekken due to certain characters having smaller/larger hitboxes however that should never be the point of not doing the best option or being careful and precise with your choice of moves
As a Jin Main from Tekken 4, I'm just as happy with the nerfs he well deserved. While he is the most difficult, I find the challenge of playing him very fun and he's even more fun learning S4. Hope you stay safe MainMan and appreciated the video cause I saw others losing their cool about the nerfs. A well needed video. Edit: I totally agree with the whole "identity" aspect. I feel like I am playing a different, Mishima-Style character. And it's the main reason why I play him instead of Devil Jin in my opinion
Yeah people keep talking about "challenge" in terms of character's choice. As a Lee main i don't even think about it. I think he is just cool. Stop saying this "He is so hard to play , i truly deserve it when i win ; i love the chalenge" bullshit. That's just a fucking low ranks quote.
I don't feel that what you said make any sense for several reasons, the first is that jin was meant to do everything in the game since most of his moves efficiency was rated from good to excellent so that was his identity and that what was making him very special among the vast majority of the cast, but on the flip side of the coin the utilization of these moves is so complicated and difficult which reflects heavily on jin mains performance in online ranked matches as you mentioned, 50 characters in the game and jin is only second to yoshi in terms of who gets the most defeats in online matches and if that is telling something it's telling that he's absurdly hard to play for the vast majority of players , so yes jin is super powerful but good luck making the best use of his super powers, even for the top tier jin mains how many times have we seen a jin main winning a tournament ? Or how many times have we seen at least 2 jin mains in the top 8 of any tournament? Jin was never a problem in terms of dominance at any Field, neither in online nor in tournaments, so now they basically made an already super hard character to play slightly weaker so he's even more harder to play , and you can't really compare jin's situation to akuma or geese because these two had access to super broken moves and some of them were capable of leading into absurd combo damage , so honestly you can never compare jin's situation to akuma or geese because it's cleary different , and yes man we do count or blessings with jin but sometimes if you own something and then you lose it you will mourn it for a while even if you had many other blessings, jin never deserved these nerfs dude, Never
I can understand most nerfs, even db4 S3 nerf I took lightly, but ff4 being nerfed to zero on block is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS and there is NO sugar-coating around it. Magic 4 CH being a premature screw is *nothing* : it's pretty much a pretext to exercise your EWHF combo even more and you can still extract lots of damage with it. It is idiotic to complain about it: only Jin players with trash execution would whine about it. But NOT ff4. This move was Jin's main frametrap, as they already had removed every plus frames from his left axe kick. Both of them suffer from terrible range, terrible startup and you mostly use ff4 when you're damn sure you're not getting interrupted. Most characters have way better frametraps, with much less compromise because of better startup and even better rewards. I terrorized opponents with repeated ff4s on hit and on block just to test their psychological thresholds instead of going for df1,confirm 4 wallsplat, just to see how long it would take for them to try to challenge it when backed against the wall. If they made it +3 or even +2 I wouldn't say a thing, but making it neutral on block is just ridiculous.
I forget who it was that coined the saying "Good players are great at utilizing their character's strengths. Bad players are great at finding all the good tools their character is missing" but it definitely holds true here
Literally like that with Jin mains. They were all upset when db4 and standing 4 lost their CH properties even though he was only one to do that when every other character had the same moves.
I personally believe bamco nerfed f,f+4 because of the new wall extension. If I recall correctly, Jin didn't have the flip over until now. So having f,f+4 still be +4 would've cause even more jin hate. Im happy with the changes being a jin main myself. He's still an S tier character
Good point! Didn't actually think of that. IMO his new move is kind of ass though because if they tech they get completely out of the wall pressure. With the other enders they can not do that. I prefer them since the difference is only one damage for better frames.
I've been on and off this game... I don't play enough to worry about nerfs, but I did notice a decrease in Jin's range... It changed my combo game a bit.
I’m a jin main how can anyone complain about him being toned down if he is still great and was literally one of the best before remember tekken 5-6 where we were struggling stop complaining about tiny nerfs that barely change his gameplay
I disagree that Jin's Parry is the strongest in the game. The only utility it provides is the fact that you don't have to have a hard read on a opponet, but if you suspect they are going for a mid or High you can just parry if you can get the timing down - which some would still consider that a hard read. They weaken his Oki, but give him a new move that set's up for oki.....................why? Littearly..........why? He has above average damage on stages with walls, but on infinte stages his damage is average. Jin has all these tools, but they suck for your average player. He's not "dead". But he's not Top Tier. Everything he does requires heavy excution to the point you have to ask yourself "is it worth it". I think for a majority of people that answer would be no and is the reason why character's like Fahkuram and Leroy exist.
Yeah Jin is really strong but you need to be creative and use all of his moveset if you want to win. I would argue Kazuya is easier to play with because he's a simple but highly execution heavy character. You can win with him just by doing a few moves. It's because of the 50 50 he has. Jin has it too but his hellsweep is much slower.
@@justaotter2085 3+4 is a shitty high power crush, if you're talking about 4~3 it can be evaded so easily and you're on the ground and the other is standing. WS3 doesn't hit grounded, F4 doesn't hit grounded. None of them are viable.
I was already on the fence about dropping Jin last season because of how incredibly hard I have to work to see any success with him. I'm not on the fence anymore. I just don't have the time to dedicate my life to Tekken
@@Alpdude there are other chars that have evasive ch mids that go backwards with better range and the startup is slow at what point can you throw that out without conditioning
@@BecomingYourIdeal In certain plus frame situations. Besides since it leaves you airborne, and jabs don't reach, you barely ever get floated. I've had great success with the move. Try it out as a round starter sometime.
If Jin was so good in season 3, I wonder why none played him in tournaments(or won tournaments) outside of CBM, Book and some really rare cases of Knee? Pretty bad presentation for someone considered so good he needed nerfing. Everyone thought he was OP, but statistics tell he was not. I prefer to believe statistics to opinions.
Bro idk why these salty ass players are so mad like Jin players on average are doing terribly. It takes a very skilled Tekken player to be good with Jin, now more than ever. If you're losing to Jin then you got outplayed. Simple as that.
what people fail to understand is yes jin has alot of tools but they are not better than a char who specializes in certain tools and has a more concrete gameplan thats why his win rate is low if you dont get that idk what to tell you main him to light blue ranks and see( on pc, emporer ranks on console )
@@pekkagenesis4802 not exactly, more so he just has no specialization to formulate a game plan. his strengths are his arsenal but his moves aren't as strong comparatively whether thats stronger mix ups, frames, party potential
Jin’s tools are good, but he is held back by the fact that he is an honest character, with no broken gimmicks/evasion, has below than average damage, and with the exception of F4. Factor in the high execution demand of operating him and his layered gameplan and you’ll understand why his win rate is so low. As for his parry: it should be treated as an advanced punishment technique. To be effective, you need reads on what you are parrying and how you can punish after that. With that in mind - no, he did not need nerfs to his damage and oki.
To me this is 100% true minus the damage statement jin has pretty high dmg on wall and most things carry to the wall, as well as him being supplemented with some of the most/best lows. but yeah most chars. Have hopkicks, sweeps they can fully combo off of, crushing hits that don’t look to crushing or readable like f1 or b1 etc for jin his hop-kick is not as powerful or fast as others his sweep barely gets him dmg from the follow up and his crushing hits are slow easily read and just plain unsafe
@@shotokanfist4118 Jin's uf2 also has no crush and has the same evasion as a sidestep. Kaz's d1+2 is 25 frames to impact but crushes highs from way earlier
This character has everything!!! So for the people complaining about BOB please don't sit their and cry and bitch..Cuz at the end of the day u will see jins in major tournaments rather than bobs.. #keepTHEsameENERGY
standing 4 does the same shit as an electric! whats the point of having the same properties? the nerf is so stupid. 3 seasons supporting this company and this is what i get. Well bye bye tekken 7.
Lmao goodbye. Imagine leaving a game cuz they nerfed one dam move ehich really makes no difference to players who know how to get the most out of a combo. Stop whining ur overreacting
@@DreGamingNetwork I dont think its about nerfs anymore. Its about the person who plays the character. I found many creative combos with magic 4 ch screw. You wouldnt worry about nerfs if you knew how to play your characte
The problem with Jin is he's the only top tier character to actually get nerfed so much that he's now mid-tier. Meanwhile, some S tier characters were buffed once again. Go watch Core-A Gaming's "Why We Should Buff More Than Nerf" if you can't quite grasp why we're so butthurt. It's not like Jin is now garbage but I guess we have to go back to the S3 argument: "it's not that *insert mid-tier character* is weak, it's just that the top-tiers are too strong". Hell, now even Bob is a better pick. Basically every character was buffed and the top-tiers either got slightly nerfed or buffed. While Jin... Well, let's say he died for the top-tiers sins lol. Btw He doesn't have better than average damage and his punishment\poking is great but nowhere near the likes of DJ\Kazumi which are as safe (if not more), have 100 times better oki and better damage\better range too.
Jin was my first character that I choose since tekken 3 and I still use him. He always my main. Yeah it's hard to know how to play with Jin but the more you practice the more you get better.
One problem is a lot of people started playing tekken and when they saw the crumple from ch 4 they were like wow that looks so cool and fun! The way you are explaining this reminds me of Capcom saying "characters are just functions anyway" explaining the lack of xmen in marvel vs capcom. People want to have fun and think a character is cool. Otherwise there would be no character specialists...You would never play kazuya. You would have mained bob in 6 and akuma and 7. This new version is only slightly worse. But in the fun department it is a kick in the nutsack imo.
I appreciate you making this vid TMM. But Jin is only strong in THEORY. The facts don't support this assertion, they show the opposite. It took you yourself extremely long to get to TGP because he is so hard to play. And you have been playing Tekken for years. Very low win rates online. No consistent tournament wins. No top players use him. These are the simple facts. Once again, I appreciate you making this video, you do a great job on highlighting aspects and explaining things to people. But the facts above show the complete opposite. He was already a difficult character to play, and he just got even harder(for no reason!). Compare with Devil Jin, who is the ideal template for a difficult to play character with really good rewards. I think your video would be much better received if Paul and similar characters didn't get needless buffs. Also, Jin's identity was supposed to be the character who could do everything better than average, but not the best. But it is clear now that certain aspects of his game are below average, like Oki and now pressuring, and counterhits. So his fundamental identity has now been changed from above average all rounder to a weak poker who can't pressure well, standing or grounded. It is easier to dodge his pressure compared to other characters, and his main CH tools such as f4 have been so HEAVILY nerfed that most of them aren't even used much. F4 doesn't combo anymore, db2 ch launcher is gone, df4 is only used at the wall sometimes due to slow speed and still misses when it should be connecting, magic 4 damage has now been reduced... there is plenty of shit like that. It all sounds so very rosy but it is absolutely not, and new Jin players quickly discover that Jin is just a shittier character, especially now. Although the devs have done better with buffing less used characters, they still have a bad habit of needless nerfs. This was just not needed, and adds nothing to the game. Purely non-sensical move.
True... they try to nerf the player in persone... tmm is not a jin player after all he couldn't understand what we feel... i loose my matches mostly because of miss input the reason he need excution... i loose because of whiff lack of range... and when i entre the zen stance the opponents are very alerted and see my hellswep from a miles away and i delay it to cd1 if they hit they will counter me if they block it they punish... mean zen cancel is necessary wish is not easy at all
The video is basically just a an encouragement for Jin Players in many cases he doesn’t want to use the word „nerfed“ and even refers to the word „identity“. He is basically saying that bad Oki is now an identity. And I also can’t stand when people say „you’ve got everything as a Jin player, be happy about that“. I agree but everything he does is outperformed by other characters. Being versatile doesn’t mean you’re strong it just means you have the Tools. The next problem with Jin is his bad range especially moves like 2,1,4 can be backstepped super easily and punished. And now let’s talk about the overpowered Parry. There is a whole video on YT showing that Jins parry is pretty much useless, since you can sidestep nearly all of those Launch punishable moves and it’s true. The overpowered parry move is accessible by all characters in form of sidestepping.
Well that's the thing when you're versatile your moves are supposed to be toned downed compared to other character's individual tools. Bryan has great CH but his poking is meh. Kazumi has good pokes but no good standing CH launcher. Jin does well in all of this so it makes sense that these moves don't measure up to the same tools other characters have, or you end up with Leroy.
Okay this "identity" thing is getting old now.... 1. Didn't Kazuya's identity change when the only loophole to his 50-50 game (sidestep left that was) was completely sealed off by the "fujin uraken" safe on block, +14 on hit... I mean why? Weakness is interesting isn't it? Then why does he need that move? 2. Did Bryan really needed that many buffs especially a mini combo after a counter hit Hatchet kick... Why? I'm sorry but if this identity thing applies to all then these two characters didn't deserve those buffs as well..
Fujin Uraken is only good when you do while standing cancel, which is extremely hard to do consistently, if you miss it you do a move that gets you launched if blocked. So no it doesn't break his identity. If you think it's easy then try it yourself
@@GreenTacoHat u can practice and make it consistent.... It's not a big deal...and when u become consistent with it's a nightmare of a move... Even without wave dash it's pretty damn good... On hit it forces the vortex on counter hit also it forces the vortex with a knock down...and it's completely safe... It's one hell of a move man...so yeah it seals off his loophole and changes his identity by a big margin
@@sarvanuchoudhury155 Yes yes we heard it already kazuya's 50-50 is braindead and all that stuff. Why not talk about someone different? Idk maybe someone like devil jin? Who does better at being a mishima and jin at the same goddamn time, great at everything, has great damage, has a really good panic button, has a launching hellsweep, Doesn't really need electric to work since he has a bunch of other launchers already, and add to the fact that he was buffed for season 4 making him even more powerful. Wow kazuya is so fuckin braindead huh? It kinda feels like you or everyone that talks about kazuya specifically in this video only did that because its tmm's main.
@@sarvanuchoudhury155 You can't say that it's good without wavedash, i've tried that move and it has a very limited range. Meaning you have to close the distance with wavedash and do it at point blank or risk your opponent korean backdashing and whiff punishing you. Even with you saying that it's not a big deal to learn him you still have to remember that mishimas need space to work with, if their opponent is all up in their face like steve or other bully characters it's gonna be hard for them to really do anything except wait for their opponent to make mistakes. Edit : idk much about bryan except he's one of the hardest character and needs his taunt to open up turtles. So i can't make arguments for him.
The thing is that Jin's nerfs don't level him with other characters. He has no ability to create pressure. You have to be quick-witted and have fast hands to play him. On the other hand, you have other characters who don't have to put themselves at so much risk to establish pressure who also have range and mix up potential i.e. Julia, Fahk, Leroy, Bob, Kunimitsu, etc. I personally take pride in my ability to use such a difficult character but let's not fool ourselves and say this is balanced. Jin is balanced but Tekken 7 isn't. The only way these nerfs work is for everyone to have identifiable weaknesses.
While I do agree on the t7 balance in general, you can utilize mental frames a lot with Jin. Good example would be the utilization of f+4 ZEN cancels/crushing. Also he has an electric, good mid pokes and proper lows. You're fooling yourself if you say he can't create pressure.
Standing 4 is a safe homing counterhit launcher at 11 frames. You are bugging if you say he has no pressure. Literally jab, down forward 1 , stature kick, and standing 4 alone with no other moves is a package most characters would love to have. With just those moves you could apply tournament winning pressure. Not bullshitting you at all.
@@Alpdude The caveat to that is high execution. Other characters don't have that barrier. The question becomes why should I use a character that is so difficult to play with this much reward when I can use another character that has the same reward without that much skill? Is this balanced? I don't think so
@@kylefields3951 Standing 4 is 13 frames. All the moves you mentioned must be used with precision. They don't work together cohesively. Again the question becomes why should I use this character when I can use another character that reaps the same reward without the risk?
@@goldenHashbrown I blatantly disagree with you on your assertion that they don't form a cohesive package. But I thought Jin's standing 4 had the same frames as a standard magic 4 my bad if I'm wrong. And yeah you could use a character that has stronger more consistent unga bunga options. I think Tekken has really screwed the pooch not even necessarily with just the characters (ie:Leroy and Fahk) but overall ability to step moves is trash. Attacks have wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too much tracking.
As a struggling jin player. Thank you for this. I was mainly upset by the nerfs cause it showed how little I know my character. I struggle with movement and reliably electric so I fought so hard to get to juggernaut just to have it dropped and back to struggling to get out of green ranks
Jin mains when Jin gets nerfed: NOOOOOO you cant just nerf the protagonist
Gigas mains when Gigas (Season 2) got nerfed: Understandable. Have a great day.
I am a hardcore Jin main, ,and i dont know tf this rant's bout. i dont see any nerfs.. all i see is adjustment.
People who are whining about Magic4 nerf shows how much they rely on just one move from Jin's bag of tools.
@@ShiniGamiAD what?
Then take away Steve's Back 1
Kazuya's Df2
And so on
Bcz yeah obviously Steve and Kazuya mains don't rely on only one move, do they?
@@prateekpujara5742
you can‘t compare these moves tho
jin‘s standing 4 is 11f
kazuya‘s df2 and steves b1 is 14f
kazuya‘s df2 is -12
steve‘s b1 is -14
jin‘s standing 4 is safe on block
and saying they rely on only these moves isn‘t true
both moves are there to frame trap and be sure when to use it so that they can get either the plus frames on hit or get the ch
@@BEER-OTFG steve b1 is safe if u hold back i dont know why they made it punishable and jin 4 is 13f not 11
@@inugamifenrir
okay yes thanks for the correction but even if that is the case both of these two characters have a completely different playstyle
while steve can poke you away its more crucial for him to hold back or get that one plus frame hit that will frame trap you for that ch b1
while jin has so many playstyles and options for jin its rather like
either getting a frametrap counterhit or he could shut down someone stepping with standing 4
it has alot of versatility while steve‘s b1 is almost always a ch launcher since steve doesn‘t have anything good in terms of launchers
Jin getting nerfed doesn’t bother me at all he will always be my main regardless
Jin need buff NOW NOW
@@donjozboy9520 nah b
So will always be my case as well.
me too broski you are not alone
I have been playing Season 4 Jin and he still feels very strong, like he now is a Tekken character
I’m sad that that crumple animation is gone it was so cool
Yeap that's what I'm most sad about. Ff4 comes close second.
Um. What about CH bf2? CH b3?
Yeah, pretty bad nerf, but it still is a CH launcher
JIN: *GETS NERFED*
TMM: "Oh no....anyway"
(edit: Don't misunderstand me, guys. I'm not a tmm hater. Just wanted to make a meme. Didn't knew people will actually like it)
Do I detect a Dacia Sandero reference?
TMM: here is an in depth analysis.
Apologist: "click, post comment, outta here"
@@SimaoRodrigues... The what? Well...anyway
@@SimaoRodrigues... nope. Top gear, completely different thing
_Welcome to bottom gear mates_
Leroy should have his block turn into parries. This will give him his own “identity”.
This video feels like when your girlfriend (s4 buffs in this case) leaves you for another guy and tries to cheer you up and make you feel better.
points of contention
ff4 nerf
this was Jin's main mid oki tool and nerfing it implies we are intended to be using ff3 more, which is more like a mishima, not less, so it actually does not give him a more distinct identity but quite the opposite. in general the season 4 changes have encouraged a more mixup oriented playstyle for Jin, making him more mishima-like overall - which would be fine, if his ff3 actually had any range and his hellsweep wasn't considerably more seeably reactable than any other hellsweep in the game
parry
Jin's parry is superior to Leroy's only in edge cases or at the absolute highest levels of play. Yes, it parries some moves that are normally unparriable, but the ability to auto-parry and auto-punish entire strings is far superior in the majority of situations. calling Jin's parry the best parry in the game is like calling taunt jet upper the best launcher in the game. like yes, that is technically correct, but this is reality not magical christmas land. in the majority of real gameplay situations, Leroy's parry is far more useful and powerful
punishment tools and WS launcher
14 frame WS launchers are nothing special, and neither is having decent range on one. hell, you even point out here that your own character's WS launcher is a frame faster. same goes for decent punishment. having a launcher at 15 is normal, having a wall bounce at 14 is nothing out of the ordinary considering it's a high high. pointing out that Jin has decent basic tools shows that he's an average character with no standout moves. there's really nothing broken about him to show, unlike with characters like Leroy and Fahkumram. other characters with specific super useful tools that cover a wide range of situations include Hwoarang, Devil Jin and yes, also Kazuya. these characters are generally able to rely on a few powerful core moves. the reason this is not the case for Jin is that he lacks anything like DJ vortex, Kaz df2 or Marn's Leg. he USED to have f4 and db4, that was his identity. instead, he now has to go for mishima style mixups but without the necessary tools to do so sufficiently effectively
f4
speaking of f4, I notice that you again call it one of the best moves in the game, citing that it is a counter hit launcher without demonstrating yourself performing the pickup from launch. the obvious reason for this is that actually doing so is almost impossible and your audience would see that clear as day if you actually attempted to show the combo. the only player in the world who can get the pickup from CH f4 consistently is CherryBerryMango. even Book won't attempt it every time. if the best Jin players in the world can't guarantee consistency from this combo, and most players can't even hit the pickup in practice mode, is it really realistic to call this a launch at all? when players used to call Jin f4 one of the best moves in the game, they were referring to the version that counter hit launched without Zen transition, since it also functioned that way as a keepout move and pressure tool, something which cannot be said of the Zen cancel version. without no Zen CH combo, Jin f4 is nothing special, just like the rest of his movelist, and unlike the key moves of many if not most other characters
counter hit launchers
if there is one aspect of Jin's game that has consistently seen nerfs this is it. as I mention above, f4 and db4 were core moves important to Jin's identity and playstyle, and removing their consistency was arguably the biggest mistake Namco could have made with the character. the CH tools he has left are, like the rest of his toolkit, decent enough but nothing special. standing 4 is fast but duckable just like any other magic 4. b3 is a decent mid but not the fastest and very steppable. df2 would be a natural hit launch for other characters but only CH launches for Jin, which like the majority of his moveset is good enough but just pretty meh.
summary
if you're seeing a theme here it's that while Jin does have decent tools for the most part, he does not have any standout moves like most other characters who are considered high tier. the difficulty in playing Jin isn't just that playing Jin is difficult, or even that playing certain other, very strong characters is comparitively easy both mechanically and in terms of gameplan. the issue is that in addition to having to use a wider array of moves due to not having an easy set of just a few identity-defining, super powerful moves, Jin players also have to contend with the fact that most of their character's most essential tools are either average or below average in their utility even for that move's intended purpose. so we have people playing a character who requires very lateral thinking to determine the right move for the right situation, often with an execution barrier to performing them, and even then half of those tools are subpar for that situation - up against players who only need to know a handful of moves for all situations, situations in which those far more versatile and frequently easy to perform moves are generally better than the Jin player's supposedly perfect tools anyway. this is why you see Jin players struggling online - he might not seem underpowered, since he appears to have no weaknesses, but not having any strengths is a weakness in its own right. in a meta where it's normal for high tier characters to possess overpowered tools, having average tools is underpowered by comparison, no matter how complete your set of them is
for all these reasons I don't consider the idea that Jin is quote unquote "still really good" to be a valid assessment. I think it ought to be clear to anyone who has spent a significant amount of time playing him since season 3 that he is only just above average at this point. Season 2 Jin was more or less perfect. he had powerful, unique tools that gave him a distinctive identity and could convert consistently from most launches, but still had to perform high execution techniques for maximum damage. he felt like the well rounded, consistent character he should be while at the same time still being hard to master due to the variety of gameplan options necessary for him to learn to succeed. he wasn't being forced into unsafe mixups using subpar moves against overpowered characters that could just steamroll him with their favourite five jank techs
tl;dr: TMM, if you're reading this, I challenge you to pull off a full CH f4 conversion in a real match just once. I bet you can't.
Absolutely on-point. Jin is just an average character with high execution demands now. Very well said, and TMM is either biased or unable to see reality objectively.
Who can argue against this, honestly?
@@goldenHashbrown Most probably, no one
@@varunsrivastava1848 ohhhh TMM is a total bitch. If it's not Kazuya he'll complain about the character.
You taught me how to play Jin from your old Jin guide (TT2 days) and I never thought you hated the character. Jin nerfs in season 4 I never thought it killed the character, sure it's different, but I don't think it too much of a change that with a bit some time and practice we all used to it. Great video showcasing he still a strong character, with loads of great moves and his big combo damage.
Jin's FF3 is much slower and has less range, not really comparable to Kazuya.
Jin was always gonna get nerfed, it's okay to nerf his tools, but nerf to the point that some of them get inconsistent it's what is not ok. They nerfed F4 to the point that CH from it pick up it's extremely hard to pick up from, now they gave an off axis screw on CH4.
CH4 it's a node to Ryu Narushima, which is the Jin, Kaz and Hei, mocap artist, and his Roundhouse kick used to give that crumple stun animation in real life Jin had up to season 2, all this talk about identity and how come you are not aware of this, if there was something original in Jin's 4 was that crumple stun, and i wasn't even mad with the small damage on Season 1, they could've just adjust the animation for the pick up to work against all chars and would still be a better buff than the season 2 CH4 full combo, imo.
The season 4 barely started and ppl are already requesting to nerf Jin's EWHF next.
This just shows how bad some ppl at tekken really to the point of requesting a complete redesign of the character.
Besides, Jin lost a lot of his tools going to tag 2 and tekken 7, he lost his oki, he lost his omen, he lost his KI charge mechanic, he lost reveals, he lost B21 pickups after certain moves hits and now he is steadily losing his right leg.
F4 hitting grounded was nerfed, then pushback was increased, now FF4 has no plus frames (I don't care with the mishima comparison, he is half mishima) and now 4 lost the most iconic animation he had.
If Jin gets a launch the reward should be consistent, i didn't need to work extremely hard to get combos off my correct reads if what you do is keep running into his moves, but as someone said, if you have execution then what is the point of playing Jin? Better off playing Devil Jin and Kazuya at this point the rewards are much better and consistent, you have to go to the stress of thinking too much on the tools you use like Jin.
When will this stop? Kazuya got buffed to the point that you can't barely step him, but no one says anything, Devil Jin got his uf4 B4 back and no one says anything.
Jin gets a consistent reward off a punish (BLAH BLAH he shouldn't have this)
i Really wish the ppl that get so dictating on tekken balancing should really try to main this character instead of pretending and do half assed demos in theory of how good x y z tools are.
Also he talks about jins parry, despite it being good it is locked behind super high execution and very hard read. If you start using jins parry as a panic move that is a sure easy way to get launched and some moves are still safe even if you parry them, everybody complains about leroy's parry but noone complains about jins parry because unlike Leroy's baby easy mode execution not even the pro jin players are able to make it part of their strats let alone online jin players use them.
None of these guys demanding nerfs actually use Jin. Smfh
Im a hei main, what i have to Say..
My thoughts exactly, especially about his oki being nerfed.
You're just another fanboy..
Jin's electric was never meant to launch, look at t4, t5, ttt2...
Why is that move a launcher??
Why is his d4 -12 now??
Magic 4?? Again, this had never given full combo until t7...
As a Jin main, I agree with you since the start and never complain about his state.
Jin is pretty well rounded but you need to know what you’re doing with. He had everything you need for every situation but this means you have to be able to adapt yourself quickly.
And now plz, TMM (and everyone in the commentary), I would love to have your analyze on Kunimitsu. I know she’s released since just a few day but I’m in love with her and want to know your feeling about her.
P.S : Excuse me if my english is bad, I do my best to be understandable.
Your English was pretty great here man. Only one sentence seems weird to a native speaker but it's perfectly understandable!
great English b
@@landoncore92 well, thank.
And so, have you tried Kunimitsu yet ? What are you thinking of the S4 ?
@@SmokinSkyzoStyle well i tried her she seems fun but lack good poking lows don't have good counter hit, high crushes and she don't have good way to get her strong backturn stance
Except for that she is very fun and good character tho it look likes a lot but it is only 25% that is she missing i like her so i will keep playing her good luck.
Hello @Happy Skyzo, I've broken down Kunimitsu II and I also love the character (been playing Kunimitsu I in my second team in Tag 2)
They made her very mix up heavy compared to her mother, but she still has decent pokes like d/f+4, d/f+1, d/b+4 and d+1 (although they nerfed d/f+4's range but made it i12).
She can be stepped to the right, like her mother, but she has fast, good high tracking moves (f+3+4, standing 3), also, d/f+1, d+1 BT+d+2 and d/b+4 track to her weak side.
Her mid tracking moves are relatively unsafe, unfortunalely (b+2 was one of my favorites but they made it a fast power crush at -11 on block) the one with best frames is her BT+1+2, which is -2 on block and a really good move overall. f+3 SET+2 is also a good option, but it can be sidewalked right if the opponent knows the timing. There's also WS+2 which is safe but has poor range.
She has unseeable lows, including a slow FC+d/f+2 that's -11 on block with poor range, and her traditional FC+d/f+3 that's no longer a launcher (gives ff+2.
Her punishment is quite good (Standing: 10f: 1,2,2 (+6) or i9 ff+4,2 (KD) 12f: 4,3 into mixups 13f: f+2,3 15f: u/f+4,3 or d/f+2)
(While crouching: i11:WS+4 i13: WS+1,1 i14: WS+2,4 i20: u/b+3+4)
Her main problem IMO is that her + moves are really slow (u+3+4, 1,1,4 or BT+1,2,4) and quite easy to step, second being she has below average damage (on open field I managed to max at 68 with u/f+3,4, f+4~f SET+1, f+4~f SET+1,2,1 S! run, f+4~f SET+u/f+4 which is hard; and her classic 1, d/f+1 d+2,1,2,1+2 at the wall is rather low damage with a -13 oki which is real bad, but I'll be testing other options later). In general, I could barely hit the 80 damage mark with a full launch + wall combo.
[EDIT]:
f+4~f, SET+1, QCF+1 is her most damaging ender, and works after long combos if you can connect f+4 after tailspin.
u/f+3,4, f+4~f SET+1, f+4~f SET+1,2,1 S! run, f+4~f SET+1, QCF+1 does 71 damage and gives good oki.
I still find her wall combo enders lacking in frame advantage: d/b+2,4,2 and d/f+1,2,2 are both -5, so the best frames with was with BT+1,2,1 which is about +3 but isn't very damaging. I find you have to sacrifice damage for oki which I really like, but makes her pale in comparison to the rest of the cast.
To be honest, just like her mother, her combo potential is good in open areas, but she struggles at the wall. You'll have to get creative with setups that don't rely on full wall combos, and I think there's some good stuff there (1 d/f+1 is a good setup from jumping behind the opponent, SSR before gives you backturned dickjab ws+2,4 into +12, also from dead center you can delay hopkick 3 for a 4,3 +6 guaranteed setup on quick roll right)
Hope this helps and be warned I might have made some mistakes with frames and such, but overall, I really like her design and playstyle.
I'm fine with Jin nerfs in general, hitting Magic 4 was just my favourite move when it came to the animation and feeling of satisfaction. The way jin retracts his leg after the hit with the zoom in just looked so nice.
This. It was really nice, now it just doesn't happen. He always follows through. :S
It was the most satisfying move to land in my opinion and I already miss that animation. That loud sound and zoom effect was pretty goodtoo
The animation, The loud bang! The Zoom in! And how Jin recovers by retracting his leg nailed it for me. I'll certainly miss that, but they could have maintained the Zoom in, so it would be reminiscent of D.Js forward forward 4
THIS THIS THIS....they need to reverse the neutral 4 CH asap...
Neckbreaker kick! Damn, that’s a visual nerf big time
Handicapped disabled people have ''identity'' since it separates them from normal humans
-MainMan Logic
What a way to completely misconstrue the actually message 😂 Jesus Tekken players are the worst
@@SuccessfulMentality94 I guess you ''took it personally'' thats fine ....some people can take jokes......mainmans dry cleaning is ready to be picked up....get on your job
@@JIX9ISLER1986 that’s comedy, I’m the one taking offense lol. I just acknowledged how your comment didn’t follow in line with what was said at all. In other words...the joke was shit. Troll harder bro 😂
The problem with Jin's pokes have always been his reach. They buffed ff3 1,2 so that it jails, but go into lab and you'll see that many times his 1 simply whiffs. 2,1,4 his primary lockdown string, about 40% of the time the 1 will whiff at range 0. The only thing you need to do against a Jin pressuring with these tools is backdash.
Jin has good pressure with his brain-dead easy 1,2 mixup with 3 or 4, but it's not a guaranteed mix-up; fuzzy ducking after 1,2 makes either choice an option select and while the 4 option creates space, the 3 option gives no frame advantage. Since it's back to neutral after either option, the pressure is all mental.
In terms of genuine mid pressure, all he has now is f3~3, which comes out extremely slow, or f4 from range, which, in this video you clearly don't even attempt to do the CH combo, especially not without a ZEN stance transition - the shit's hard and inconsistent.
In this video I hear alot of talk about character identity, but all they've done with this patch is meld Jin into the identity of other characters. Other than his extremely good (but steppable) bf2 strings, or his still very good d4, he's fallen into the same mixup pressure for non-competitive online players as a Dragunov, Kazumi, or Bob - but all of these characters have easier mixup tools and don't have as disjointed of a gameplan in neutral.
In terms of long range pressure - with his right leg nerfs he's forced to pressure and look for whiff punishes like a Mishima with EWHF, and he still doesn't have the same whiff recovery buff on that option as other Mishimas.
The point is, sure these nerfs add character by forcing Jin to be played a certain way, but it's a bit paradoxical: The reason Jin's 4 options were so strong is that they made up for his absolute shit reach from his jab-starter pressure tools. Nerfing these forces Jin to play a more execution-heavy, long-range whiff punish game where other Mishimas, Kazumi, Alisa, and now Julia are the stars of the show.
Thank you for saving me the time to type all that.
@@damionbaxter4912 facts 😭😭
@@damionbaxter4912 No worries. Jin is still a very powerful character if you have the execution. But, the problem is that with each subsequent change to his character, if you have the execution you're better off not playing Jin if that makes sense? That's the paradox.
TMM makes points that sound good, but when we look at the character more objectively, his statements about character identity or his demonstration of how Jin is still really strong don't play out. When I look back at how long it took him to get to TGP with Jin in S3 and how non-optimally he played at times compared to my standards and many other Jin players on stream (no knock to TMM, he's still a very good Mishima player) I don't think he's the voice of reason on this, especially with how well Kazuya got treated this patch.
@@hasnoku yeah I get what you mean. Tmm is right jin does need most of his tools to be good but when you make those tools less and less useful he loses his identity and becomes more in line with the rest of his family not separate.
@@hasnoku im a filthy tekken casual, ill be the first to admit this... but I think a lot of people seriously overrate Jin. I dont know the game well enough to exactly pinpoint why, but... Getting wins with Jin just *feels* harder than a lot of other characters. And I've labbed a TON. I know all his good moves, strings, I can electric and whiff punish, I know high damage combos, I'm not a total scrub, I just dont play every day. That being said, theres something about Jin that feels a lot more difficult to use and win with than some of the other characters you've mentioned. It feels like you need to try harder to attain similar results than other characters, and like everyone knows, you need good execution. Idk, maybe that doesn't make sense and I should just git gud, but thats just an observation I've made as a philthy casual trying to main Jin
12:07 Imma stay at Fujin forever then.
Eh, you don't say...
@@ace6806 lol. i thought he was saying fujin as well. but after that othey guys comment. mainman were actually saying few Jin. lol silly me
@@syaredzaashrafi1101 Well, my comment was a joke xd.
I don't care that you say he's really good.
A lot of players like me and you have worse results with him than with other characters.
I think this is core of the issue.
They lowered his power level without changing his entry barrier / skill floor / difficulty, which is pretty high.
Wow, I feel the exact same way
thats why there exist all the tekken 8 chars with almost no execution needed
People hype him up too much theres a reason he has one of the lowest win rates, hes good but only if your good...
Jin is not just a character, he is a commitment. You will have to commit to Jin and be serious with him to get wins. He is one character who actually requires reflexes, brother.
Let's talk about Kazuya losing his identity when Namco gave him Devil Jin's b4.
facts
already made a vid on that
I agree with this so much, why the fuck does kazuya has djv b4??
@@FGirao Kazuya got Devil Jins B4 not the other way around.
@@iSmkEmUcH oh right
I hope "Dear x Mains, Please Watch This" becomes a series ^^
Right, is a good touch of truth on peoples main characters, I would like to hear what he got to say on yoshimitsu
Non-Kazuya Character Nerfed: .....
TMM: He has more identity.
He spouts identity like how "patriotic" Americans spout democracy. What's that? They found oil on mars!? Perhaps those martians will be interested in our democracy! What? Qudans and other Devil Jin fans are having fun with wraith kick again?! We should introduce them to identity!
LMAOOOOOO
So true
Obviouslt what jin main would say
He did not like kazuya with the hell sweep buff !! what are you talking about??
He’s not wrong though. Jin was too strong. He needed nerfs regardless of how much someone preaches about “identity” or not. Stop being imbeciles and look at the facts. Jin was too strong... I dont know how you Jin sympathizers think... smh
As a Jin main the ff4 nerf actually pushed me to throw electrics out more often in matches
Electrics and hellsweep is expected in Mishima Jin matchups throwing it out a lot is like opening a book and highlighting a page
If you're going to use a high to try and gain frame advantage you'd also need something to counter ducking attempts. I would guess f,f+2 or f,f+3 would serve that end (and either CD 3 or see if you can just tag them with the wider hitbox of EWHF if they try to step those moves).
I don’t think being versatile is uninteresting, the problem is making him OP at everything instead of making him okay or just good at everything. Honestly, they could’ve actually mad Jin bad, but they didn’t. He’s still viable, there’s nothing to complain about, except maybe ff4.
Coming from a Jin main by the way.
His ground game sucka
Yea mainman you’re right they tried to give him an identity with his pokes, but in doing so they sacrificed his other identities
A jin player thats not complaining?? I cant believe it lmaoo
Change can be hard to accept.
Bro. Outta of all the videos from TMM I watch so far, this is by far and ALWAYS will be my favorite video yet😍. Thanks, Mainman😁👍🏻
Man he makes Jin looks so cool i would play him but i don't have the execution for electrics 4 seasons deep so i'll spare myself the pain :)
Just keep practicing and you’ll get it
They aren’t that hard to do
One suggestion not enough people emphasize...try practicing placing the 2 right between the forward and the down. Once you get the pattern down the electric will come out much more deliberately for all mishimas.
Electric isn't that hard you just have to time 2 and df. And just practice it you'll eventually get there. Good luck
It's funny every says it's not that hard but guess what electric out of sidestep or wave dashing or even backdash is pretty hard. They say practice but just know your gonna have to practice a looooong time. Just doing electric from neutral is easy yeah but to really learn how to electric properly is what I assume your talking about.
"Enormously strong". Are people really ready to abandon ship because of a few nerfs? I thought he was designed to be Jack of trades/master of none? What exactly makes him so unplayable now?
Good video MainMan. Yeah hes not easy, but dedication can be rewarding with him.
It always happens. In lol, champion getting a microscopic nerf is enough to drop playrate by a few percent.
Yes but now every character is a jack of all trades except they also have gimmicks with an easier and more rewarding playstyle.
@@pro178 ah so you're saying Jin is bare bones because hes got no glaring strengths to compensate against someone who specializes? His parry is nice tho.
@@EnragedOxygen Champion of what? I can't remember anyone taking him to a finals.
@@pro178
You gonna say a Hwo or Lei is jack of all trade? Many characters rely heavily on their gimmicks and we all know that locks them down to a certain playstyle. Sure Jin doesn't excel at any certain playstyle, but having the ability to cover all bases means you can always adapt. Sure adapting can be complicated due to roster size and learning the habits of your opponents, but he's the perfect character to do that with. He's only difficult because he isn't a flowchart character.
Gonna shut down main man's entire opinion on jin rn, I know you don't hate jin but please tell me how this is strong cause I don't see the strong character I use to know, All I see is T5 jin with no mental alertness to atleast give him some sort of actual contrast, In the beginning of T7 there was a character here with versatility, strength and poise and it was very much defined not only in his character but in his game play (If you don't use f4), This "Identity" thing is just a crock of sugarcoated bullshit and if they really want to keep his identity which in reality his identity is supposed to be "Don't fuck with me or I'll end you" has gone to "Ok so I'mma just wait for this punish..." Because you have forgotten one very crucial detail in this plot and it's that jin might have all these things but there are already characters, in the game who do this exact same thing that jin does but better, Hell even Lars can play the waiting game better than jin in season 3 because when he does he makes you pay for it, Suddenly your at the wall and you have to guess, the only stage for sure I know jin can go wall to wall in was the mishima estate AND THAT BITCH SHORT AS HELL, Also "Note the range on WS2 it's 14 frames" Sure meanwhile Kaz's is the same frames, Not only can you literally just throw it out, It rewards you for doing so, Trust me I know, Mixing people up with it is fun. "Oh launching hellsweep" Cute 51 damage meanwhile the devil within over here can wall carry after the damn thing into B21 heavens gate, Know what, I legit dare you to do this, Compare gigas to jin, Cause from what I have seen Gigass he is no longer Gigass he is what is name represents now Giga, Cause people don't believe me when I say this character is dying, There was so much more tech and so much more versatility back then and now alot of that technical identity is gone.
facts bruh but he and most of his followers are bias towards any mishima or half mishima in jin case other than kazuya
Mainman : Jin has the Best parry in the game
Geese : Hold my predictabo
Having the best parry vs having a broken parry..
lol
Hold my dated meme
geese is dependent of low high or mid, with a half circle input in a split reaction timing while jin's covers high and mid with an easy b2+4 though. Just be ease of execution, i think jin's is better than geese's.
@Rheinard you have to look at from ease of use. If you can hit a parry more reliably then that makes it better. If you have a parry thats stronger once it lands, but you can't pull it off as much in game and its not as practical then its really not the best. Especially at higher levels where you do want something thats safer (even if it can't punish everything, but im pretty sure most parrys cant)
Oh god more jin bias hold up let me just 2,1,3 into meter cancel with jin
You are so bias mailmam. You are always whining to nerf jin and devil jin.
I mean they both are really strong.
I wanna cry as jin main .I'm proud of him😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
Thanks tmm
"Jin mains are struggling"
*Me, a filthy Jin main whos struggling:*
Lol same
Jin is life!
A lot of people just can’t seem to understand that character identities are a thing and not everyone wants a jack of all trades character
The developers can sometimes slip on character identities too, season 4 bob I’m looking at you
The problem is that there are a lot of characters that have everything in this game.
Yeah bob is another Mishima at this point as stated by MainManSWE
I think Jin worked in Season 3... :/
So that's why after Season 2 they decided to nerf Jin in order to mitigate that, only to later add Leroy who was exactly that but x100 and now again with Bob in Season 4.
Firstly, by no means is Jin weak, even in Season 4. The nerfs he got in S3 were fair, and brought him down a notch from being slightly over the top in S2. However i'm genuinely curious as to what the logical justification was to nerf him again. Jin is not an underachiever in a general sense, but if you take a look at things objectively, and narrow things down specifically to the top tier characters in the game; he is arguably the BIGGEST underachiever in terms of both usage and performance in Competitive play, as well as statistically having the second worst win rate in Online play.
Perhaps what perplexes me most is that within the top tier bracket, we have characters like Steve, Paul, Zafina, Julia and even Akuma that did not appear to get hit as hard as Jin did in S4, despite them clearly being the most dominant characters in Season 3, which begs the question as to what really was the need to further nerf Jin again? I believe if he stayed exactly the same as he was in S3, he would have still been balanced and fair in Season 4.
Even though Jin is the the most well rounded character next to Leroy, the difference is Jin takes effort and a high degree of fundamentals to utilize to his max potential, especially his Parry. Whereas Leroy as we've all seen, takes next to none and that's why there were 7 of him in a Grand Final.
If gigas had an exploit that let him kill you off of just his jab it would still be too strong even on a bottom tier. Jin had options that were to strong. There’s nothing else to it. Pick rates are the worst thing to ever use as evidence. They’re just supplemental material for existing evidence.
Your the first persons opinion, I agree completely about Jins nerfs in season 4.. I agree season 3 jins nerfs were fair and just.. that back/down 4 counter hit launcher was mad ridiculous, and needed to be nerfed AND THATS ITT!! Sheesh like, Jin is already a hard character to master.. I played him three years straight and I just got to red ranks with him.. and then harada had to take my suzaku away 😭😭.. Nevertheless, I agree a season 3 jin moving into season 4 untouched.. Would have been a well rounded jin and balanced.. If I’m wrong then why didn’t devil jin get nerfed as heavy.. that’s all I have to say..
@@Neogears1312 I can assure you Gigas would not be considered bottom tier if he had such a thing lol. So, what metrics are they using exactly to determine whether a character is too weak or strong then? I'm pretty sure that one of the biggest reasons Leroy got nerfed was due to the fact he was literally being picked by everyone and also winning every tournament when he released due to how broken he was.
Jin was similar to that back in Tekken 4, but not even remotely close to that in Tekken 7. So what else? Community opinion? In Season 3, Jin was hardly complained about or even considered a problem compared to the likes of Akuma, Geese, Leroy, Fahk, Steve, Paul, Zafina, Julia etc.
It doesn't add up, i'm genuinely curious as to the logic behind their decisions here. Akuma has been one of the most complained about characters since Season 2, yet he is still able to do everything in Season 4 that the community have been complaining about and will continue to do so.
@@Neogears1312 Gigas is an extremely strong character when it comes to profiting off of hard reads and T7's new rage mechanic, but you're hypothetical is completely out of left-field. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. What option did Jin have that was "too strong" that was effectively addressed by the nerfs?
Beautifully said
You repeatedly guarantee 100% that jin is horrendously OP even though there's nothing I've seen in all the tekken I've watched that suggests that is the case, even though he's stupidly hard to play.
I can't get past red even though im in blues with other characters. You just keep talking about how good he is until there's nothing left. Yeah, he has a great parry - that's almost impossible to confidently utilise against similarly skilled players without getting baited and launched. You literally stated that the frame trap that every mishima shares SHOULD be taken away because it makes him more unique?? Almost every single good move hes had (that also makes him unique) has gotten nerfed except his electric. I just don't get it, I normally completely agree with your opinion on other characters. Kazuya and dj keep getting buffed but that's completely fine? If i could see one convincing video of him dominating a good player playing a good character in a high placement tournament I'd happily stop whining
This though. Makes Jin unique he says
He literally said that the DJ buff was questionable. And plus, if every character dominated tournaments, the game would be in a wayy worse place than it is now. Jin is fine, maybe even still op. You never see Xiaoyu players complain. You never see gigas players complain that their character doesn’t “dominate” tournaments. Please calm down. Jin does perfectly fine in almost every level of play. Stop complaining and be grateful.
Look, Jin is, canonically, a Kyokushin karate character. Each of his moves has a purpose. his forward four is a traditional mid-hitting front-kick. it is meant to interrupt, to create space, and to build your own momentum while halting your opponent's, while keeping them at a distance. His neutral 2 is more of a "foot stop"...a quicker but less powerful version meant more for interrupts. the corpse thrust (down 1) is a favorite of mine for knocking a target down when they are approaching from long range. Check out ThatBlastedSalami's channel for a great Jin guide. I studied the crap outta that when just getting started with Jin and went from only being able to do really simple combos (think hop kick or cancan to kazama turning kick or 1-2-3/1-2-4/2-1-4 simple) to his bread-and-butter (which is MUCH more complex) being my, well, bread and butter, and will likely study more. I can now cancel from cds/zen into a demon-paw or forward forward four with or without backstepping no prob, or into a LLRK, wind hook fist (working on electric from all directions), or "wind uppercut" (and go from that launcher into the bread and butter) and am still growing beyond that. Offline I am I believe at or past Tekken Emperor. Online...2nd or 3rd dan, I think (Treasure battle is my thing, but yes I absolutely have success with Jin there), with a surprisingly decent record all things considered. All this as just an OK player at best.
So, does that help? If I being no pro at all can main Jin and make you think before approaching me, then surely someone with skill can main him. And guess what? They do. Book is one of the best Tekken 7 players out there and uses Jin. Same with CherryBerryMango and a handful of others.
@@thathottstuff5075 but that is not true Jin don't do fine as he told u in this video he has one of the worst win rates and nobody is saying gigas is op but they say Jin is all the time what other character do people say is top tier who has a bad win rate and has won almost nothing he brings up geese and akuma but they was domain and in top 8 every tournament so not the same
@@christopherjones7023 I agree but look what they be doing compered to what Kazumi geese akuma or doing how are they not in top 8 more than alisa or eddy player's he is a way better character right he is op top tier right
Whats up with jins parry being called god tier? On paper his moves seem good, hell then Yoshi's flash 6 frame launcher would make yoshi ss+ tier then. I don't see people complaining about jins parry being op but everyone cries about leroy's parry, because application is easier with that then with jins parry. You can't use jins parry as a panic tool and only use it if you have a super god tier read on your opponent.
Uh, not really. As long as you don’t do a seriously bad whiff with it, you’ll be fine.
Also, I hope you’re joking about a six frame launcher.
@@pekkagenesis4802 yoshis normal flash is a 6 frames launcher on normal hit, does that make him ss+ tier? no because its application is hard to do so, just like jins supposedly god like move called parry.
I kinda agree. Some mains dont use much move sets he has like his insane demon scissor's range
Not gonna lie, that's my favorite move in his kit because of the range🤣
I prefer calling it Doumawashi because that's an actual move
Oh, that's good but it has nothing on Bryan's b,b+4, you really need to compare the two lmao. That move is maddeningly cheap used as a round ender because of the ridiculous range/tracking/active hitbox. The moves are pretty much used identically too.
Why is it that only you (TMM) complains about Jin every season? He's too good, I'm glad they nerfed him because it helps his "identity". I don't hear KingJae, LilMajin, K-Wiss, Rip, CBM, or countless other pros better than "You" that say anything about his moveset; every single season. It's only you man. Why is that?
Ive never heard any of these pros complain that jin is too op lol
0:48 Of course MainMan likes Jin, he has a tattoo on his arm, he is a badass (cit.)
Jeremy lmao
Hoodie
I don't get.. he was super all round.. isn't that one of the best identities of a Fighting Game Poster character?
Honestly Jin is one of the strongest characters in tekken I've mained him for a while now and the only thing about is that hes hard at first which is actually a good thing because all the Ls ive taken in the past are paying off now I rarely see anyone playing my character as well as I do and that's something I'm proud of
Are u on pc
@@jokauk4995 yup
@@meronshamoon76 add me joka uk can run some jin mirrors
Yea sure thing I'll add u when I hop on
@@meronshamoon76 joka_uk bro
If I can point out another interesting Jin weakness: he is lacking in the high crush department
jin main here, i watch your vids and they are great :)
i think his B1 stance does a decent job in crushing highs. even gives you a 80+ damage combo with 1+2 if you manage to get a good read on your opponent's high.
B1 might not be a perfect crushing tool but i don't think jin should have much built in crushing in his moves, it'd go against his identity
Nice man
Well, d4 has pretty good jab crushing. Between that and b1 that's plenty.
Doesn't uf2 also crush high?
Db3 high crushes too
People complaining about the combo damage on Jin's sanding 4's combo cause without being able to screw it does around 56-58 dmg. In the meanwhile here we Feng mains are, playing with 54-60dmg combos even with screws and everything lol
I'm glad MainMan was one of the recipients of early S4. Quality content as always.
I don't think anyone would mind someone like TMM getting it earlier.
We just think people like TBS and few other content creators should have got it too.
he didn't even do anything with it but ok. he put out videos 1 whole day before release, and they just went over the selling points that we already knew.
There are some butt hurt about it
@@freedustin umm he literally showed you all the new moves for every character
@@bronbhai9784 no. he didn't.
Hey TMM I am desperately BEGGING you to do this exact same video with Steve. There are great videos of him from you and other youtubers like the Complete Breakdown video from Blasted Salami, but I feel like when you do explanations like this the advice sticks better and feels more real and applicable. I am sure you're busy but a video like this with Steve would just be HUGE. Thank you👏
*OH NOOO NOO NOOO JIN GOT NERFED*
**picks my nose**
Jin 😭😭😭
@@sasori_8_205 oh hi xiaoyu
Kunimitsu hey 😁 I hear Xiaoyu 😳😳😳😳 my heart 🥰
Literally what I just did are you watching me?
@@sasori_8_205 what about it
As a Jin main (now a dirty kuni fanboy) my problem was going on autopilot with him. His tracking moves and fast poke strings made me forget movement. It took me few months and after exploring different characters (kaz, hei, ak, alisa, zafina) I went back to Jin and it felt so good with my new view about movement and poking. F4 and standing 4 are just soooo good and now that they buffed 2,1,4 oh my god that is exactly the thing he needed!! Love it! Jin is just so cool! ^^
Mainmanswe - "I like jin now, he has more identity!!".....* Goes back to playing 50/50 God kazuya and gimme your life bar geese howard full time".
so ?
guess what jin still has strengths that make him also a „god“
its just that now its more precise on your movie choice
either use the move that should be used or get hit
@@BEER-OTFG the point is that he is covering a character that he really could care less about because his characters are still top 5 dead or alive and he will continue to win with all of his character traits intact even if they have less "identity" than jin or other characters.
@@BEER-OTFG also I wish tekken was about using the correct move at the right moment however we have to deal with frames and hotboxes that are inconsistent to say the least, only virtual fighter can hold that title.
@@deanbrooks7297
top 5 ?
kazuya is by no means a top 5 option
sure he now is definitely in the top 10 but come on
and guess what ? he still has his identity and has big flaws
geese also became a lot worse
just look at the changes yourself and you will see that its quite drastic and it was to be expected anyways
all characters that were at the top in s3 got nerfed
someone like jin was pretty predictable to be worse since he still had oki tools like ff4 that were huge on block which didn‘t make sense since that character never had god oki in tekken 7
@@deanbrooks7297 unfortunately that is true for tekken
due to certain characters having smaller/larger hitboxes
however that should never be the point of not doing the best option
or being careful and precise with your choice of moves
Tucks the bottom of his pants into his boots. D- tier fashion that's for certain
Nina, Julia, now Jin. This guy is trying to piss off everyone in Tekken.
I never thought I'd say this regardless the content of ur video, I like ur English accent, it's very clear and uncomplicated.
This is the channel for Tekken Interventions 😂
The doublethink is strong with this one
As a Jin Main from Tekken 4, I'm just as happy with the nerfs he well deserved. While he is the most difficult, I find the challenge of playing him very fun and he's even more fun learning S4. Hope you stay safe MainMan and appreciated the video cause I saw others losing their cool about the nerfs. A well needed video.
Edit: I totally agree with the whole "identity" aspect. I feel like I am playing a different, Mishima-Style character. And it's the main reason why I play him instead of Devil Jin in my opinion
he is not the most difficult lol
That definitely goes to akuma
This guys a simp bru
@@soulstrendingmusic7531 You used that term so incorrectly.
Yeah people keep talking about "challenge" in terms of character's choice. As a Lee main i don't even think about it. I think he is just cool. Stop saying this "He is so hard to play , i truly deserve it when i win ; i love the chalenge" bullshit. That's just a fucking low ranks quote.
Pretty sure TMM is telling the truth about liking Jin, this was a YT vid and he didn't have to retry any combos 4 times.
welp, he never tried f+4 combo tho. haha.
i will start using jin since i can customize him as jotaro
Change some colours and you'll get M. Bison
@@FadedWorld. skinny m bison
Yare yare daze
@@wardogthreeisanidiot6561 weebs, the lot o ya
I customize Lee, Kazuya and a lot others as the GOAT Kira Yoshikage
I don't feel that what you said make any sense for several reasons, the first is that jin was meant to do everything in the game since most of his moves efficiency was rated from good to excellent so that was his identity and that what was making him very special among the vast majority of the cast, but on the flip side of the coin the utilization of these moves is so complicated and difficult which reflects heavily on jin mains performance in online ranked matches as you mentioned, 50 characters in the game and jin is only second to yoshi in terms of who gets the most defeats in online matches and if that is telling something it's telling that he's absurdly hard to play for the vast majority of players , so yes jin is super powerful but good luck making the best use of his super powers, even for the top tier jin mains how many times have we seen a jin main winning a tournament ? Or how many times have we seen at least 2 jin mains in the top 8 of any tournament? Jin was never a problem in terms of dominance at any Field, neither in online nor in tournaments, so now they basically made an already super hard character to play slightly weaker so he's even more harder to play , and you can't really compare jin's situation to akuma or geese because these two had access to super broken moves and some of them were capable of leading into absurd combo damage , so honestly you can never compare jin's situation to akuma or geese because it's cleary different , and yes man we do count or blessings with jin but sometimes if you own something and then you lose it you will mourn it for a while even if you had many other blessings, jin never deserved these nerfs dude, Never
Ok jin main
I can understand most nerfs, even db4 S3 nerf I took lightly, but ff4 being nerfed to zero on block is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS and there is NO sugar-coating around it.
Magic 4 CH being a premature screw is *nothing* : it's pretty much a pretext to exercise your EWHF combo even more and you can still extract lots of damage with it. It is idiotic to complain about it: only Jin players with trash execution would whine about it.
But NOT ff4.
This move was Jin's main frametrap, as they already had removed every plus frames from his left axe kick.
Both of them suffer from terrible range, terrible startup and you mostly use ff4 when you're damn sure you're not getting interrupted.
Most characters have way better frametraps, with much less compromise because of better startup and even better rewards.
I terrorized opponents with repeated ff4s on hit and on block just to test their psychological thresholds instead of going for df1,confirm 4 wallsplat, just to see how long it would take for them to try to challenge it when backed against the wall.
If they made it +3 or even +2 I wouldn't say a thing, but making it neutral on block is just ridiculous.
Jin also has one of the best rage drives too, because of the mix up potential
Dear TMM, now Jin has no mid frame advantege. Now this is a truly unique character.
I'm gonna leve jin for a while
Why would he have that??
When tmm writes a Dear John Letter to Jin Main. Its not me, its you.
Youre the reason Jin is gettiing these nerfs.
lmfao stop crying.
*Jin misses parry*
Jin: Oh no
anyway
Boohoo me I'm a poor Jin main, I can't even do a 95dmg combo out of a magic 4 anymore
LMAO
Hold on it did 95?!?
@@mehdiouabas9587 Nope, never did.
@@hasnoku with rage drive and wall I could see it doing that much
@@mehdiouabas9587 Counter hit, rage, and situational wall combo could made it to ~95 damage. Well, not anymore.
Thank you TMM for that in depth rundown that has now cleared the air for a Jin main like myself
I forget who it was that coined the saying "Good players are great at utilizing their character's strengths. Bad players are great at finding all the good tools their character is missing" but it definitely holds true here
Literally like that with Jin mains. They were all upset when db4 and standing 4 lost their CH properties even though he was only one to do that when every other character had the same moves.
I personally believe bamco nerfed f,f+4 because of the new wall extension. If I recall correctly, Jin didn't have the flip over until now. So having f,f+4 still be +4 would've cause even more jin hate. Im happy with the changes being a jin main myself. He's still an S tier character
Good point! Didn't actually think of that. IMO his new move is kind of ass though because if they tech they get completely out of the wall pressure. With the other enders they can not do that. I prefer them since the difference is only one damage for better frames.
Strengths make a character appealing,
weaknesses make a character interesting!
Leroy, strong but few weaknesses -> Boring
I agree with you but he ain't boring he is.....
D I S G U S T I N G
I've been on and off this game... I don't play enough to worry about nerfs, but I did notice a decrease in Jin's range... It changed my combo game a bit.
I’m a jin main how can anyone complain about him being toned down if he is still great and was literally one of the best before remember tekken 5-6 where we were struggling stop complaining about tiny nerfs that barely change his gameplay
Thank you. So many Jin players complaining for having an extremely good character.
That’s what I’m saying. They needed to balance him, and that’s what they worked on.
Devil Jin on the other hand...
@@pekkagenesis4802 idk what they were thinking wit dj he’s a problem fr
@@sharkaholic2171 When I heard the high tiers got nerfed, I thought Devil Jin was being put down too.
But then, I tested him out...
Mainman, if Johnny Sins holds you hostage to force you to make this video, blink three times
Jin mains are so used to being pampered like the favorite child even the smallest knockdown is a world ender for them
Man have you heard of Tekken 4 and 5 ? 🤣
I will still miss his awesome CH4 animation
Jeremy isn’t going to be very happy with you xD
I disagree that Jin's Parry is the strongest in the game. The only utility it provides is the fact that you don't have to have a hard read on a opponet, but if you suspect they are going for a mid or High you can just parry if you can get the timing down - which some would still consider that a hard read.
They weaken his Oki, but give him a new move that set's up for oki.....................why? Littearly..........why?
He has above average damage on stages with walls, but on infinte stages his damage is average.
Jin has all these tools, but they suck for your average player. He's not "dead". But he's not Top Tier. Everything he does requires heavy excution to the point you have to ask yourself "is it worth it". I think for a majority of people that answer would be no and is the reason why character's like Fahkuram and Leroy exist.
Only Jin fans think that his parry is not the strongest
@@SokushitsuGoda
It is the strongest but Geese Parry has some advantages over Jin's Parry.
Yeah Jin is really strong but you need to be creative and use all of his moveset if you want to win. I would argue Kazuya is easier to play with because he's a simple but highly execution heavy character. You can win with him just by doing a few moves. It's because of the 50 50 he has. Jin has it too but his hellsweep is much slower.
Same with devil jin
Also you can just stay on the floor and Jin can't do shit
@@Johnnnnie 3+4 , ws 3+4 , f4 are some of options
@@justaotter2085 3+4 is a shitty high power crush, if you're talking about 4~3 it can be evaded so easily and you're on the ground and the other is standing. WS3 doesn't hit grounded, F4 doesn't hit grounded. None of them are viable.
@@Johnnnnie Best option is just do a d2. Does decent damage.
As a jin mains I agree with mainmans points jin is a character with almost everything, the nerfs were interesting but don't break his overall gameplan
I was already on the fence about dropping Jin last season because of how incredibly hard I have to work to see any success with him. I'm not on the fence anymore. I just don't have the time to dedicate my life to Tekken
Pick easier char bro, you gotta enjoy the game
@@milosaga5450 Tekken just isn't for me friend. Ultimately I'd rather spend my time doing more fulfilling things
UF3 low crushing ch launcher getting forgotten everytime
Because it’s slow af and doesn’t crush until late in the animation. The move is not good
And it’s -9
The real use of that move is to use it as ub+3. It still launches on counter hit - and that's really rare. Evasive mid that goes backwards.
@@Alpdude there are other chars that have evasive ch mids that go backwards with better range and the startup is slow at what point can you throw that out without conditioning
@@BecomingYourIdeal In certain plus frame situations. Besides since it leaves you airborne, and jabs don't reach, you barely ever get floated. I've had great success with the move. Try it out as a round starter sometime.
If Jin was so good in season 3, I wonder why none played him in tournaments(or won tournaments) outside of CBM, Book and some really rare cases of Knee? Pretty bad presentation for someone considered so good he needed nerfing. Everyone thought he was OP, but statistics tell he was not. I prefer to believe statistics to opinions.
Bro idk why these salty ass players are so mad like Jin players on average are doing terribly. It takes a very skilled Tekken player to be good with Jin, now more than ever. If you're losing to Jin then you got outplayed. Simple as that.
@@goldenHashbrown its not outplayed if other characters are brain dead easy.
@@devthaaltrima7556 what is it then?
what people fail to understand is yes jin has alot of tools but they are not better than a char who specializes in certain tools and has a more concrete gameplan thats why his win rate is low if you dont get that idk what to tell you main him to light blue ranks and see( on pc, emporer ranks on console )
So you’re saying his weakness is not having a concrete gameplan?
@@pekkagenesis4802 not exactly, more so he just has no specialization to formulate a game plan. his strengths are his arsenal but his moves aren't as strong comparatively whether thats stronger mix ups, frames, party potential
Jin’s tools are good, but he is held back by the fact that he is an honest character, with no broken gimmicks/evasion, has below than average damage, and with the exception of F4. Factor in the high execution demand of operating him and his layered gameplan and you’ll understand why his win rate is so low.
As for his parry: it should be treated as an advanced punishment technique. To be effective, you need reads on what you are parrying and how you can punish after that.
With that in mind - no, he did not need nerfs to his damage and oki.
To me this is 100% true minus the damage statement jin has pretty high dmg on wall and most things carry to the wall, as well as him being supplemented with some of the most/best lows. but yeah most chars. Have hopkicks, sweeps they can fully combo off of, crushing hits that don’t look to crushing or readable like f1 or b1 etc for jin his hop-kick is not as powerful or fast as others his sweep barely gets him dmg from the follow up and his crushing hits are slow easily read and just plain unsafe
Jin's uf2 is a great evasive move..
Kazuya for example doesn't have such moves
Shotokan fist he has d1+2 and ss1+2 for evasion
@@skullospice d1+2 is 25 frames, SS1+2 doesn't crush anything but step itself
@@shotokanfist4118 Jin's uf2 also has no crush and has the same evasion as a sidestep. Kaz's d1+2 is 25 frames to impact but crushes highs from way earlier
This character has everything!!! So for the people complaining about BOB please don't sit their and cry and bitch..Cuz at the end of the day u will see jins in major tournaments rather than bobs..
#keepTHEsameENERGY
standing 4 does the same shit as an electric! whats the point of having the same properties? the nerf is so stupid. 3 seasons supporting this company and this is what i get. Well bye bye tekken 7.
Lmao goodbye. Imagine leaving a game cuz they nerfed one dam move ehich really makes no difference to players who know how to get the most out of a combo. Stop whining ur overreacting
@@bronbhai9784 they have been nerfing Jin since S3, it's not just 1 move
@@DreGamingNetwork I dont think its about nerfs anymore. Its about the person who plays the character. I found many creative combos with magic 4 ch screw. You wouldnt worry about nerfs if you knew how to play your characte
I'm waiting on Jeremy to make a video now tbh
I've been searching for this comment
Because he’s so hard to play, it’s no much more rewarding when you win.
Please let me finish my exams in peace
TMM makes valid points here, but he’s also incredibly biased because he will say Kazuya deserves buffs
It's TMM's fault the intro of his Jin video he jokingly said doing Jin's Axe kick, "Except for this! Ahahaha~~!!" showing it's nerfed.
The problem with Jin is he's the only top tier character to actually get nerfed so much that he's now mid-tier. Meanwhile, some S tier characters were buffed once again.
Go watch Core-A Gaming's "Why We Should Buff More Than Nerf" if you can't quite grasp why we're so butthurt.
It's not like Jin is now garbage but I guess we have to go back to the S3 argument: "it's not that *insert mid-tier character* is weak, it's just that the top-tiers are too strong". Hell, now even Bob is a better pick.
Basically every character was buffed and the top-tiers either got slightly nerfed or buffed. While Jin... Well, let's say he died for the top-tiers sins lol.
Btw He doesn't have better than average damage and his punishment\poking is great but nowhere near the likes of DJ\Kazumi which are as safe (if not more), have 100 times better oki and better damage\better range too.
Jin was my first character that I choose since tekken 3 and I still use him. He always my main. Yeah it's hard to know how to play with Jin but the more you practice the more you get better.
Lol, he hates Jin (period)
I know you was being sarcastic, but for those who really thinks this is to hate Jin, they really can't listen to me, a person who REALLY hates Jin.
One problem is a lot of people started playing tekken and when they saw the crumple from ch 4 they were like wow that looks so cool and fun! The way you are explaining this reminds me of Capcom saying "characters are just functions anyway" explaining the lack of xmen in marvel vs capcom. People want to have fun and think a character is cool. Otherwise there would be no character specialists...You would never play kazuya. You would have mained bob in 6 and akuma and 7. This new version is only slightly worse. But in the fun department it is a kick in the nutsack imo.
I think that jin is all right were he is now(note im a jin main)
I appreciate you making this vid TMM. But Jin is only strong in THEORY. The facts don't support this assertion, they show the opposite.
It took you yourself extremely long to get to TGP because he is so hard to play. And you have been playing Tekken for years.
Very low win rates online. No consistent tournament wins. No top players use him.
These are the simple facts. Once again, I appreciate you making this video, you do a great job on highlighting aspects and explaining things to people.
But the facts above show the complete opposite. He was already a difficult character to play, and he just got even harder(for no reason!). Compare with Devil Jin, who is the ideal template for a difficult to play character with really good rewards.
I think your video would be much better received if Paul and similar characters didn't get needless buffs. Also, Jin's identity was supposed to be the character who could do everything better than average, but not the best.
But it is clear now that certain aspects of his game are below average, like Oki and now pressuring, and counterhits. So his fundamental identity has now been changed from above average all rounder to a weak poker who can't pressure well, standing or grounded. It is easier to dodge his pressure compared to other characters, and his main CH tools such as f4 have been so HEAVILY nerfed that most of them aren't even used much. F4 doesn't combo anymore, db2 ch launcher is gone, df4 is only used at the wall sometimes due to slow speed and still misses when it should be connecting, magic 4 damage has now been reduced... there is plenty of shit like that. It all sounds so very rosy but it is absolutely not, and new Jin players quickly discover that Jin is just a shittier character, especially now.
Although the devs have done better with buffing less used characters, they still have a bad habit of needless nerfs. This was just not needed, and adds nothing to the game. Purely non-sensical move.
True... they try to nerf the player in persone... tmm is not a jin player after all he couldn't understand what we feel... i loose my matches mostly because of miss input the reason he need excution... i loose because of whiff lack of range... and when i entre the zen stance the opponents are very alerted and see my hellswep from a miles away and i delay it to cd1 if they hit they will counter me if they block it they punish... mean zen cancel is necessary wish is not easy at all
The video is basically just a an encouragement for Jin Players in many cases he doesn’t want to use the word „nerfed“ and even refers to the word „identity“. He is basically saying that bad Oki is now an identity. And I also can’t stand when people say „you’ve got everything as a Jin player, be happy about that“. I agree but everything he does is outperformed by other characters. Being versatile doesn’t mean you’re strong it just means you have the Tools. The next problem with Jin is his bad range especially moves like 2,1,4 can be backstepped super easily and punished. And now let’s talk about the overpowered Parry. There is a whole video on YT showing that Jins parry is pretty much useless, since you can sidestep nearly all of those Launch punishable moves and it’s true. The overpowered parry move is accessible by all characters in form of sidestepping.
Well that's the thing when you're versatile your moves are supposed to be toned downed compared to other character's individual tools. Bryan has great CH but his poking is meh. Kazumi has good pokes but no good standing CH launcher. Jin does well in all of this so it makes sense that these moves don't measure up to the same tools other characters have, or you end up with Leroy.
Jin Kazama is still my main dude in Tekken😁 Still fun to play ever since I started liking him in Tekken 3🤩
Okay this "identity" thing is getting old now....
1. Didn't Kazuya's identity change when the only loophole to his 50-50 game (sidestep left that was) was completely sealed off by the "fujin uraken" safe on block, +14 on hit... I mean why? Weakness is interesting isn't it? Then why does he need that move?
2. Did Bryan really needed that many buffs especially a mini combo after a counter hit Hatchet kick... Why?
I'm sorry but if this identity thing applies to all then these two characters didn't deserve those buffs as well..
Finally someone said it
Fujin Uraken is only good when you do while standing cancel, which is extremely hard to do consistently, if you miss it you do a move that gets you launched if blocked. So no it doesn't break his identity. If you think it's easy then try it yourself
@@GreenTacoHat u can practice and make it consistent.... It's not a big deal...and when u become consistent with it's a nightmare of a move... Even without wave dash it's pretty damn good... On hit it forces the vortex on counter hit also it forces the vortex with a knock down...and it's completely safe... It's one hell of a move man...so yeah it seals off his loophole and changes his identity by a big margin
@@sarvanuchoudhury155 Yes yes we heard it already kazuya's 50-50 is braindead and all that stuff. Why not talk about someone different? Idk maybe someone like devil jin? Who does better at being a mishima and jin at the same goddamn time, great at everything, has great damage, has a really good panic button, has a launching hellsweep, Doesn't really need electric to work since he has a bunch of other launchers already, and add to the fact that he was buffed for season 4 making him even more powerful. Wow kazuya is so fuckin braindead huh? It kinda feels like you or everyone that talks about kazuya specifically in this video only did that because its tmm's main.
@@sarvanuchoudhury155 You can't say that it's good without wavedash, i've tried that move and it has a very limited range. Meaning you have to close the distance with wavedash and do it at point blank or risk your opponent korean backdashing and whiff punishing you. Even with you saying that it's not a big deal to learn him you still have to remember that mishimas need space to work with, if their opponent is all up in their face like steve or other bully characters it's gonna be hard for them to really do anything except wait for their opponent to make mistakes.
Edit : idk much about bryan except he's one of the hardest character and needs his taunt to open up turtles. So i can't make arguments for him.
Bro jin still good. Hits like a truck. Also, very hard to play with
The thing is that Jin's nerfs don't level him with other characters. He has no ability to create pressure. You have to be quick-witted and have fast hands to play him. On the other hand, you have other characters who don't have to put themselves at so much risk to establish pressure who also have range and mix up potential i.e. Julia, Fahk, Leroy, Bob, Kunimitsu, etc.
I personally take pride in my ability to use such a difficult character but let's not fool ourselves and say this is balanced. Jin is balanced but Tekken 7 isn't. The only way these nerfs work is for everyone to have identifiable weaknesses.
While I do agree on the t7 balance in general, you can utilize mental frames a lot with Jin. Good example would be the utilization of f+4 ZEN cancels/crushing. Also he has an electric, good mid pokes and proper lows. You're fooling yourself if you say he can't create pressure.
Standing 4 is a safe homing counterhit launcher at 11 frames. You are bugging if you say he has no pressure. Literally jab, down forward 1 , stature kick, and standing 4 alone with no other moves is a package most characters would love to have.
With just those moves you could apply tournament winning pressure. Not bullshitting you at all.
@@Alpdude The caveat to that is high execution. Other characters don't have that barrier. The question becomes why should I use a character that is so difficult to play with this much reward when I can use another character that has the same reward without that much skill? Is this balanced? I don't think so
@@kylefields3951 Standing 4 is 13 frames. All the moves you mentioned must be used with precision. They don't work together cohesively. Again the question becomes why should I use this character when I can use another character that reaps the same reward without the risk?
@@goldenHashbrown I blatantly disagree with you on your assertion that they don't form a cohesive package. But I thought Jin's standing 4 had the same frames as a standard magic 4 my bad if I'm wrong.
And yeah you could use a character that has stronger more consistent unga bunga options. I think Tekken has really screwed the pooch not even necessarily with just the characters (ie:Leroy and Fahk) but overall ability to step moves is trash. Attacks have wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too much tracking.
As a struggling jin player. Thank you for this. I was mainly upset by the nerfs cause it showed how little I know my character. I struggle with movement and reliably electric so I fought so hard to get to juggernaut just to have it dropped and back to struggling to get out of green ranks
Toque em um clipe para colá-lo na caixa de texto.
Namco please stop listening to this dude and open your eyes to the imbalance bias you have towards the other mishimas.
ah yes what do we have here ?
another one of these people who doesn‘t even understand what they talk about themselves
As long as they don't nerf his cool ass hoodie I'll be fine
he needs to stop tucking his shirt in tho, thats cringe
@@trilfy nah hed be too cool if he stopped tucking in his shirt, they would have to nerf him because his coolness is plus 4 on block