I'm 75, been riding since childhood, bought a Rebel 1100 DCT and I'm loving every mile. When my '97 Suzuki Bandit 1200 gave it up (in 2000) I was looking around and saw the Rebel DCT and thought I'd take a chance. I don't do thousand mile rides anymore but I enjoy riding, so I gave it a try. No going back now... :)
Because it's a bad thing on all those supercars including formula 1 it's boring boring boring boring boring boring. Never said it wasn't faster never said it wasn't quicker never said it wasn't more convenient never said it wasn't more safe but it is boring. I've written the DCT goldwing. thought it was going to be awesome. hated it it sounds like a Old Detroit Diesel 2 strike bus (but not as AWESOME) and there's not the gaps between shiftin. there's not the fun of the different sounds. I don't like it. I just don't like it. !! I totally get that other people do. I don't care. I just don't like it. I have a Corvette seven speed manual. I would never go past the c7 Corvette. the c8;Don't like it. bigger car, wider, longer. I don't like the rest of the car anyway but, with a manual okay. without a manual and the DCT; wouldn't care if you gave it to me for free. I'd have anybody else drive it across town to sell it instantly and buy another Corvette Manual. Is trade or for adifferent car 100%, without a doubt not even one seconds hesitation! All because it not a Manual.
After fifty years of riding the first thing I learned about my Africa Twin DCT is that it’s not an automatic. On the contrary, it takes just as much to learn how to use it as a manual. But, after a few thousand kilometers in many situations I came to admire its virtues and adapt to its limitations. While I do believe some of its functionality is superfluous, it’s still a very interesting and engaging piece of engineering. I like it, and I like my manually shifting bikes too; lucky are those who have choices!
Thank you Honda for this amazing DCT innovation! I am someone who started riding a manual transmission bike many years ago, but due to a non-motorcycle related injury, I can no longer use a shift lever. Subsequently, I thought my riding days were over completely, until the DCT came along. Now as a “differently abled” man, ( I don’t label myself as disabled) I am thankful that I can once again do something that I really enjoy! Also, my Honda Rebel CMX1100 DCT can outperform a lot of bikes that are on the roads and I love it! I have absolutely no problem accepting change, life happens. When it’s beneficial technology, I’m all for it! Thanks for the informative and insightful video guys. 👍
@@decencywarrior9598 “Differently Abled” I am pulling for you!! It takes faith, determination, hard work and commitment and you will get it done! The first thing I realized was that the term “disabled” is a label 🏷️ that gets slapped on people who have suffered a life changing injury or illness! I refuse to wear that label. I can to do a lot of things that “abled” people do, I just do them differently. Therefore, I am differently abled! You will get there! 💪
Love my Africa Twin with DCT. I actually suffered a clutch thumb injury from commuting on a BMW with a stiff clutch. It's been five years now and I think my thumb has recovered but still ride the AT. I was glad to stay on two wheels and now have grown to love the DCT. It's great tech.
@@thoughtsparks I agree with you 100%. It’s all subjective, if someone wants to ride a Manual or DCT bike there’s no problem with that. I am grateful that the option is available because there was a time when a person with a of physical limitation had to hang up their helmet because only manual bikes were available. At 64 years old I’m glad that I am not an “old head” when it comes to change for the better. The phrase “Ride your ride” encompasses a lot. 👍
had the Honda 750 automatic from 1977 great bike and now I will be buying a DCT bike only way to ride a bike again have had little use of the left hand since a work accident great vid guy's
The truth is after selling my Harley Heritage Classic of which I loved I bought a new Honda NC 750 x DCT and absolutely love it. I have had some health issues and I can continue riding with much greater ease. I am 65 and have no ego and macho crap to display and all that bologna any more. Been there done that. Just humble older guy who is enjoying my renewed joy of riding. What ever works for you is what I advocate.
If nothing else giving more riders with injuries an opportunity to ride then I'm happy for those folks. After a crash at Bonneville in 2023 it took me a few months to get my left hand working. If my left hand had not began to work again I would have went to an automatic transmission after 55 years of riding.
Thanks Gents! I have followed both of you for many years dating back to when I had a magazine subscription to Cycle World - glad to be able to STILL enjoy your commentary, in whatever fashion that is still available. I recall an old CW article on the VFR1200 DCT wherein it was ridden across country...when DCT was still in its infancy. Amazing that riders, nearly 15 years later, are still complaining about this advancement in the technology. While I will be sticking with a manual transmission for my newly ordered 2024 Africa Twin AS, the DCT model was a serious consideration...Cheers from Ontario Canada!
I ride Africa Twin DCT as I lost my right arm in a motorcycle accident in 1999. I tried Honda's DN-01, Yamaha's FJR-1300AE, Aprilia Mana 850 CVT and the Africa Twin. The AT DCT is by far the best solution. I'll try out the E-clutch too but the DCT is surprisingly good. I even created my own e-clutch for a MT-09 which was a potentiometer for a thumb clutch, servo in the rear seat and cable that runs to the clutch. It works, but the e-clutch looks very promising as its two giant servos in the case and it's hooked up to the ECU. Anyone who clutches their purse saying, "auto bikes are no good" (pun intended) - needs to have a long hard look at themselves. This ex-national superbike rider does not give a rat's arse about what you ride, just ride.
🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯. It’s just people are so rigid in the old ways , they get pissed off when technology makes things easier. There would of been people pissed off about washing machines
DCT is excellent for 2 up, excellent for highway and long trips, nothing better out there IMO. For me, owning multiple bikes, I wish I had bought the manual version. I would love to see them keep the DCT but add a clutch, so you could use it if you needed like low speed or at stops. Also when coming into gas stations on long rides when I am tired, engaging the clutch just helps navigating all the vehicles. I love the DCT, but really wish for the Clutch.
I test rode a 2018 DCT Wing. I took a pretty long test ride, more than 60 miles, and just wasn’t a convert. I didn’t care for it at low speeds in particular. I learned to ride when I was 10 years old on a mini bike with a clutch and after 55 years of riding, the clutch just isn’t an issue for me other than in stop and go traffic. However, I work hard to avoid that on a motorcycle so it is rarely an issue. Now, if I lived in a city, then an automatic bike would be useful as it is on a car in similar circumstances.
I recently sold my Africa Twin with DCT. I really liked the DCT, but the size of the bike was too much for my off-road skills. The DCT added another 20 pounds to the bike, but it was easy to use the paddle shifts when I was riding off-road.
Part of the problem is that with journalists etc resisting DCT Honda and the rest of the industry has failed to advance DCT. For instance much of the weight of the DCT is because it is essentially an add on gear box between the manual and DCT. Honda have a patented design for the NC750 which simplifies and reduces the size of the whole engine package but have apparently had no reason yet to use it as the NC seems to have been pushed into a commuter role. With different engine designs and electronic clutches , and even foot shifters, Honda could basically revolutionise motorcycling but resistance to change has had an important part to play. Ironically every man and his dog are introducing quick-shifters and DCT is, in effect, a very fast quick-shifter as it even preselects the next cog.
I believe Honda's very first DCT was in 2010 with the introduction of the VFR 1200 motorcycle. It was available both with DCT or the normal 6-speed manual. It proved one thing, that Honda could create a reliable setup for a high horsepower engine. At that time it added almost $2,000 to the price of an already expensive motorcycle. I have that extremely powerful bike but with the normal 6-speed manual.
I have a 2022 HD Road Glide, and just bought a 2024 Goldwing DTC. Wasn't sure if the DTC was right for me after shifting motorcycles for 40 years manually. Yes, it has taken some miles to get used to, but the bike will shift for you if you want, no clutch pulling or you can control it manually with paddle shifters, instant gear changes up and down. It's really fun and quick!! I do still find myself reaching for the clutch as I am coming to a stop sign, but the bike shifts down to 1st and never stalls, and you just apply the brakes and stop, zero drama or issues. Is it necessary for me to have DTC, no, but I feel like it's a modern convenience that just grows on you with time, and it's a Honda so it works perfectly!
Thank you for making the digital leap. As much as I've loved the magazine for years, I really love seeing you in person on a screen, doing your thing, being yourselves, and letting me really hear your voices. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Kevin Cameron. Casey Stoner wanted the electronic aids removed when he first started racing in the Moto GP class, and every year he was participating in it. It was NOT a "get off my lawn" moment said years after his retirement. If the electronic aids were not on Moto GP bikes when he was racing them, the other competitors, including Rossi, would not have even seen which way he went. He would have left them for dust. In fact, when Ducati were testing to select a new rider for their new 800 Moto GP bike, Casey was not their first choice. At the test, Stoner was not going as they expected and Casey's father, Colin, suggested to the Ducati team that they wind back all the electronic aids as much as possible, and let Casey ride the bike again. They reluctantly agreed to try this, and after Stoner rode the bike again, he was signed as their number one Factory rider. He won the first Moto GP round on it, dominated the rest of the season, and went on to win the Moto GP Champioship that year. If you want to witness THE BEST riders at the highest level of Moto GP racing, I think you should respect what Casey Stoner is suggesting in removing some of the electronic rider aids. I don't know if we are watching the best riders available now in the series, just as when the big-bang engines were introduced in the 500cc GP days, suddenly all these EURO riders were running with Doohan, Gardner, Rainey and Schwantz. Mick was smart though, called for the old screamer engine to be fitted to his bike, and beat all the big-bang Euro riders, just to show them who the most talented rider was. On Stoner, there are two interviews on RUclips with Nicky Hayden and Ben Spies where they explain why Casey Stoner is the most talented rider they had witnessed in Moto GP. The Moto GP team data guys will tell you the same thing. Without electronic rider aids, you will get to witness the best riders.
A great discussion about technological advances, from an old school analog motorcyclist! Caused me to wonder what how the world's axis would wobble if the 'Bagger's' racing series would include/allow Goldwing DCTs, K1600s, FJR-1300s, et al. My last ride was on a '06 FJR-1300. The whole motorcycle experience has changed since I last rode in 2010!!!! As a 69 year old, I look forward to experiencing some new tech, while being able to resort to that which I know as I re-enter the motorcycling world.
I often wondered about reliability of the Honda DCT, specifically the clutch. Since there are 2 sets of gears engaged. One with the clutch released propelling the motorcycle and a second set of gears with the clutch depressed for lack of a better explanation. The question was on the drag on the clutch plates and the release mechanism, throwout bearing. It would be interesting to see oil analysis on a DCT to understand the presence of clutch friction material and metals.
There is no throwouut bearing. The DCT works the same as an automatic transmission clutch pack, its a piston driving a clutch pack into compression to transmit drive. When it's released a spring holds the clutch pack disengaged, so no oil pressure, no clutch engagement. Clutch Longevity? Will be similar to a normal automatic, only difference is that these use engine oil rather than atf. Clutch material is the same as all other motorcycle clutch material. 40,000 km on my DCT and no issues at all.
I watched this podcast with great interest. I have ridden the dirt, street, trials since 1970. Have been test riding new Gold Wings after many years without one. The dealer has been pushing the DCT during test rides. As a trials rider the hardest thing for me to give up is the low speed handling advantage the clutch has. Thinking that I will spend more time on the two lane than I will in the parking lot is helping me to lean towards giving the DCT a try. I will likely always have clutched bikes in the stable to keep those skills honed.
I love my 2017 Africa Twin DCT. The shift changes feel just like manual clutch action. Drive, 3 sport modes and manual paddle switching. Could be that I’m 66 now. But I like shifting the Bonneville also.
At age 66 I made the decision to trade in my beloved 2005 Honda Goldwing ABS. Though I haven't test driven a DCT, your discussion really helped me to understand the benefits of that system. Really appreciate this information guys, thanks so much!
Interesting discussion. The history discussion made me suddenly remember a motorcycle I totally forget I've ever seen. It was an automatic Husqvarna enduro bike way back in the 70's at an agriculture equipment expo of all things... Googled it up just now and, yeah, this was a real thing:)
Ya me to at first at slow speeds but with practice and using the rear brake with a little throttle you can maneuver the DCTs at low speeds with confidence. Practice , practice.
Interestingly, the first generation Toyota Prius was designed to keep the engine at the optimal speed for best gas mileage, but that meant that it would go to a particular RPM and hold it, resulting in a "motorboat drone" sound on acceleration. This annoyed customers to the point that the Toyota added faux shifts on the next generations, even though they actually reduced fuel economy a tiny bit.
I saw a video where a guy was using a Honda e clutch & he was a track instructor for a different team other than Honda & I was surprised how much he actually liked it but he did I mean I understand a dct on a Goldwing as it's almost like driving a small convertible on an all day ride also I remember my 73 z50cc Honda minibike aka monkey just clicked 3 down with no clutcj
In a divided world full of I want the best, it’s lovely to hear two mature guys who can flow from one technology to another grinning all the while. It’s not so much what you have but enjoying it all in spite of any limitations or advantages
I really want you guys to talk more about that fascinating Honda e-clutch. Is it a better quick shift? Do they integrate an auto blip? Why? Is it a complete solution to a problem or a half measure? This WAS a great argument on get out of that rutted lane. Keep on trucking.
I thought they were pushing these automatics due to the ability to run the bikes lean & upshift sooner for emission reasons I still think that's part of their reasoning
Mark touched on an important point I hoped one of you would make: the hostility towards automatics/semi-autos is very much related to what happened in the car world. Once automatics became practical and affordable (and eventally faster), fewer people bothered to learn how to drive manuals and many others switched to automatics. The manufacturers naturally moved almost entirely away from manuals, virtually eliminating the choice. That's a significant worry. Is it as likely to happen the same way with motorcycles? Maybe not since motorcycling in the first world is more of a pleasure/lesiure pursuit and is even more influenced by the wants of enthusiasts. But when manufacturers keep talking about making motorcycles "more accessible to more people," you have to wonder a little. To some of us, manual control of the gears and clutch is a significant part of what makes riding engaging and satisfying, much like the balance aspect Mark also mentioned. I have no issue at all with DCTs/autos/semi-autos. Hell, one of my bikes has an up/down quick shifter with auto-blipper. But I choose not to use it more than I choose to use it. So, that's probably more than enough for me right now. I don't think anyone really objects to automatic transmissions existing. They might just be a little worried that at some point manuals won't be allowed to exist.
Some months ago I saw part of a video where there was 3 guys somewhere in what looked like south America fighting through thick mud for miles, eventually 2 of the 3's clutches burned out, I kept thinking the other one will burn out any time now, but it never did, then I realized it was a Twin with DCT. that stuck with me. I hear riding a lot of deep sand will do the same. I now have a Twin with DCT.
I recently bought a used 2019 goldwing tour DCT. I have owned dozens of motorcyles of various shapes and sizes. I test rode a manual 2018 before buying it. I bought it because I have ridden clutched manual transmissions my whole life and wanted to see why it was so popular. I also have owned several semi auto bikes like a honda super cub which is an absolute blast to ride. It has been several weeks and it is slowly growing on me. The bike has several different faces. The ability to ride lopeing along in automatic in slow traffic, the ability to manually instantly downshift in automatic mode, the blistering fast sport mode in manual mode. The bike has many personalities. The big challenge is slow speed riding without a traditional clutch friction zone. You must learn to use just throttle and rear brake only. Takes practice. I find the difference part of the challenge. I am improving every day. Its the greatest bike I have ever owned.
I had a test ride on a NC750X DCT, and knew it was going to be my next bike within a couple of miles. When I got back to the dealership I put a deposit on one. That was back in 2016 I still own the bike and have no intention of changing it. My mates thought I had lost my mind trading in my 2010 Triumph Speed Triple SE for it, I can tell you it's the best decision I've ever made with motorcycles. Great video with plenty facts and truths. 👍
I got hooked on CVT working at a bmw dealership when we took on Kymco scooters during the big gas price increase in 2009-10(?) In our part of Calif gas was $6.50 gallon . We sold them like hotcakes . Couldn’t get enough of them . I of course ended up with one and fell in love with it . (People 200S) 60’ish MPH and what, 70-80MPG. I’ve had 4 of them and currently have yet another 200S. One Summer I rode my scooter more miles than I rode my BMW RT. Silly to say it was just easier to ride as I wore the same gear, same garage, same route to work but the weight and size was just easy. Kymco was/is just crazy dependable. Back then the 150cc and larger were made in Taiwan while the smaller ones weekend made in China. Now I assume most of not all are made there.
Makes me think of brute force ATV. The centrifugal clutch in downhill you'd either ride the rear brake to engage engine breaking, or throttle it slightly. And again you charge the dynamics. I've lightened it and got one result, changed springs then weights and guy more changes. On two wheels this may have problems because on a quad it's got huge tires, on dirt, and torque kinda came on to strong.... lugging over ruts was harder then my friends with a standard shift with auto-clutch
I published a review of one of the first DCT-equipped Gold Wings. I did a full sidebar piece on the experience of working with the Auto trans...calling particular attention to the fact that the control unit had a nasty habit of upshifting when one rolled off the throttle to set up a corner entry. To Honda's credit, they actually re-programmed the DCT control unit to consult the bike's Inertial Management Unit and not shift if the bike was leaned over -- my input was actioned and the problem was fixed. Also fun was the seamless upshifts at full throttle - not many folks would think to keep a full dressed Gold Wing Tour in a power wheelie through the first four gears, but with DCT, it was a cinch. Heck, it prolly would have kept the front wheel up all the way to 7th, but I was already well into 'go directly to jail' speeds, and didn't want to stretch my luck on a West Virginia public highway. Let's hear it for progress! ;-)
I myself am very interested if not excited about the development of automatic shifting. I have always been a sporting rider both on and off road including track days and racing I never thought I would say that. However, as a double leg amputee I would love nothing more than to ride again. I was able to manage when I lost my right knee below the knee with a rigged up rear brake, but options for modifying the shifting to accommodate my left above the knee is an expensive and questionable modification. A factory built sporty bike would be just the thing to get me back out there doing what I love most.
Good conversation! Thanks. Some people are cave men and some people are astronauts and that is ok. Each has their place. This all sums up to ride what you want and allow others to do the same. We don't all have to want the same things to all be happy. 2020 Honda Africa Twin Adevnture Sport DCT. Went DCT and never looked back. It can do anything a manual bike can do of the same catagory/size on and off road.
It’s bad enough Honda turns the wing into a sport bike but that DCT really hammered it in. A gold wing that does 150 mph ? Not for seniors any more. That seat really shows us.
I have a new MG V85 with the smoothest throttle response and easiest to hold at a steady speed engine I've ever owned along with cruise. I can cover the same 400km roads on my CVT Burgman 400 (no cruise) and it's even less tiring. It's all good. My wish list would be a Honda NC 750 with DCT, cruise and a shaft drive.
As a former dealer, I am constantly mystified by the manufacturers' attempts to attract new, non-motorcyclists to riding. The "automatic" Hondas, then the PC800 come to mind. The automatics were costly to develop and never amounted to much, and the PC was a nice, simple handsome motorcycle that almost nobody wanted. Answers to questions that nobody asked...
Electric bikes might become popular once solid state batteries become the norm however not for me especially on the street if traffic doesn't see me i want them to hear me
I have been riding in the UK since 1978. I have no DCT experience at all. My current bike has efi and 'HISS' and that is about it. Many riders have obviously taken to dual clutch operation and dont look back.Having listened to your discussion I have two areas where I would like to know more. Firstly, you suspect that, in some circumstances, DCT may have a negative impact on rider involvement and handling? and secondly, the early modern car/automobile 'flappy paddle' gear boxes etc appear to wear out sooner, where newer models being introduced mean that getting replacements can be difficult to obtain, and very expensive to install. Not being an engineer, to my way of thinking these are troubling concerns. Maybe I am being old fashioned here. Great Discussion BTW. Thanks.
Production Note: Mark's off-the-cuff introduction rambled, and his voice varied in volume enough that it was difficult to understand what he said. On the other hand, Kevin spoke very clearly, in sentences, so he was much easier to understand. Kevin is always interesting to read or hear; I wish I had half his knowledge!
As I age, I'm looking forward to continue to ride the the categories of motorcycle I love with the advent of DCT type transmissions. I love nailing a sweet shift, up or down, but frankly a DCT type transmission will allow me to ride as I age. Time is the great equalizer. We all age.
All products evolve. Recently, some people started to buy modern phones with rotary dial... It is OK to miss "the old times" because of the memories we carry but life goes on and technology evolves. Also, new legislations require manufacturers to adapt. I keep my analog motorcycle but can't deny the advantages and comforts new bikes offer. As I am not getting any younger, the new tech might extend my motorcycle fun a little longer... In a few years, ICEs might not even be available (motorcycles and cars). Let's keep an open mind, folks. Even our kids, who we love so dearly, grow up and the relationship changes. The love doesn't go away and we all adapt. Stay safe and enjoy the rides.
I've had every model Honda equipped with the DCT, and still own my 2010 VFR1200F and a 2017 NC750X. The NC750 is the most seamless installation, with the engine and transmission being superbly matched, and due to the low cg and weight, is the least affected by low speed turning maneuvers (requires adapting on the GW most). I find I rode the Africa Twin and the NC just like a regular clutch equipped bike, simply substituting paddle shifts for foot shifts. My VFR is Hondas first gen DCT, which seemingly due simply to computer programming, when driving in the auto mode, if you use the paddle shifters, it changes into the manual mode and stays there, so that quick downshift for a corner or passing requires resetting to the auto mode. Which is NOT intuitive or convenient. BTW, would you fellows be aware of anyone or a business that could reprogram that to the later updated software? In any case, I love all these transmissions, from the way the GW helps to manage a loaded touring bike, to the amazing feeling of the VFR snicking through the gears almost imperceptibly at full throttle in sport mode - I call it Warp Drive!
My present bike has an up/down quickshifter, which I use all the time, so the clutch for me is only for starting and stopping. I don't mind this one bit. In fact when I get into slow traffic, and have to feather the clutch, ( no lane splitting in Alberta unforturnately)my hand gets sore after a while and I start wishing that the clutch was automatic. I enjoy the manual transmission but could take or leave the clutch. It makes me wonder if Honda could increase their take rate on the Africa Twin DCT or NT 1100 by moving the manual shift buttons off the handlebar and making the shift selector a traditional lever in the traditional spot. Based purely on my own experience and preferences, I think I'd be perfectly happy with a bike that retained the shift lever but deleted the clutch lever.
However, those low RPM torque values are from a dyno which is operated at WOT. An idling Gold Wing engine isn’t making 100 ft-lb of torque. Starting out is more affected by the flywheel mass of the engine than by the torque capability at WOT at off-idle RPM.
I have had a ‘21 DCT Wing for almost 4 years now after clunking from 1st to 2nd on Harleys for about 35 years and would never go back. And like all the drivers of the newer Porsche 911s, who have begrudgingly come to love paddle-shifting their DCTs because the sticks are gone, I too finger-shift my Wing along while Gregorian chanting inside my NeoTech II.
I remember when cars by large part were shifting to automatic transmissions and many people balked at this trend. Balance? The motorcycle does not need anyone to balance it once moving, they will even go down the road without a rider until it crashes. Maneuvering certainly takes a rider...
I will say removing those electronics on MotoGP bikes would increase the distances between the first and tenth place rider. Personally I'd prefer the really gifted rider from a excellent rider with better electronics. I watch for to see the rider's talent displayed rather than who has the best software engineer. The next step will be machines racing with no riders. This is a different discussion from street bike technologies usefulness and safety.
I was kinda hoping Mark could finish the Aprilia story but I'll take a Kevin induced sidetrack any day. There are many times I wish my 600lb ADV bike had an auto but don't want the extra weight and complexity of DCT. The Rekluse-style clutches work fantastic and in a street application, ideal. I would pay for a Factory auto-Clutch without hesitation.
I'd say it depends, of course . For example a commuter with a DCT sounds great, but would it be as great for a sport bike? Personally I have NC750X as one of my bikes and it's great for city riding, among other things. Smooth, VERY easy to ride exactly when I want to, or need to focus on the surroundings.
I've been riding bikes for bikes for 62 years and drove heavy trucks for my entire career . i will always prefer standards to automatics because you have better control .
The snobbery amongst bikers always amazes me. Nobody has to justify what car they drive, why do so many riders feel that they have to justify their choice of bike? I ride a Goldwing Tour DCT, I love it & I really couldn't give a rats ass what anyone else thinks of me for loving my bike. It was expensive and I could arguably have bought any bike I wanted, I chose the GW DCT and for me it is perfect. When I see other bikers on different bikes raving about how much they love them, I am honestly very happy for them. If we all reacted the same way and did the same thing then life would be utterly dull. Ride what you ride and love what you love.
Quite frankly, I am not sure having a few coordination barriers to entry to motorcycling is such a bad thing. If someone can’t coordinate a clutch, throttle and gear shifter, can they coordinate countersteering to corner competently? Can they coordinate trail braking if they enter a corner a little too hot? I think we often make it too easy for people to get into motorcycling and some who maybe shouldn’t become riders are not stopped at the initial stage of learning to use a clutch and instead get on the street on an automatic and then crash because they simply don’t have the coordination skills required to ride competently and safely.
Imagine trying to learn how to ride one todays busy roads with every other driver looking down at their phones. One thing many people don't realize is how crowded roads are these days. I have only been of of age for 15 years and roads these days are much more intimidating. Unless someone comes from dirtbikes, they have to learn the basics on much more crowded and distracted roads. Coordination is one thing once it has a chance to become muscle memory. But in a pinch without experience? I would hope a new rider can rely on ABS and silky smooth shift to keep a new rider upright. Many have been scared off or badly injured due to inexperience that these aids would have helped.
Your left foot is there…your left hand is there…and your brain is there too. Why an auto or an extra auto speed with a bike you never have to downshift unless coming to a stop?
Like others have said, ride what pleases you..I'll mostly keep my mouth shut. But this is the comments section, so: I can't stand them. I am, or was, a mechanic at a dealer, (making it just a hobby lately) and even riding them into the shop annoyed me. The shop was very crowded, bringing a bike to my lift involves tight maneuvering. The day can get dull and repetitive, you do little things to amuse yourself...one of mine was, whatever I was riding in to work on, I'd try to make the whole trip with feet on the pegs only, like trials. It can be hard, doing this on a GL1800. I would try to ride onto the lift, front tire entering the wheel clamp, before putting feet down. It can be hard, depending on what's in the way and what you're riding. Anyway, forget about doing that without a manual clutch, it is essential for the very delicate control needed. I'm also a woods rider, and tend to minimize putting feet down, just as a matter of principle, although in very tight rocky woods trails, this is wishful thinking. I've also ridden rekluse clutched bikes, and don't really care for them. Even, again, bringing a dual purpose bike into the shop without a manual clutch, standing on the pegs, maneuvering at 0.5mph, the manual clutch delivers, if the rider is able. If not, well, work on that! If all you do is accelerate away from stoplights and try to blend in with traffic, knock yourself out! I don't think it's satisfying at all, though. The purpose of riding to me is the satisfaction of me controlling the machine well, and smoothly. Don't like car autos or DCT's, or CVT's, either. I was on a date in maybe 89 or 90, and the girl asked why my car was smooth like an automatic, but I seemed to be shifting it. I think she was just asking, and didn't realize how I took it as a nice compliment. (Sort of..I generally feel that, once familiar with a clutch, I should be smoother than an auto, unless flat-shifting, without lifting the throttle foot one bit.) Who, that really likes riding or driving, would want some part of it taken away? DCT...then CVT....then....video game? No thanks! Learn how to shift.
I worked on a couple cb750a's that you mentioned...they aren't really automatic at all. It's a manual 2 speed with a torque converter instead of a clutch, and you could just leave it in either gear, 2nd being preferable. It will accelerate fine from zero in second. But very lazily. It was a little better starting in first, then upshifting, but not much- they were just turds in every way. It was more interesting to look at the parts microfiche than to ride, it you like to see how things work. They are interesting in that way. Another case of Honda flexing their engineering muscle, but giving a questionable result. At least they are usually reasonably reliable.
I am old in Motorcycle and Harley, Honda all my life. Part of the religion, then i got me self a DCT, for me is a super joy to have this new Honda tech, ans when am tire of it, i get my dirt bike and clurch ro my hearts content. Have my harley to renew my vaos of a devaut clutcher. I dont care if is DCT is just fine, is nothing more than tech to suit my mood. My only beef with dcr is not able to nutral when costing. Other than that Dual clutch is great.
The more people we can get into motorcycles the better.......................I want others to feel the joy and freedom that 2 wheels brings me. I have no problem with DCT's, but I can't stand CVT transmissions.
right now I have a bike with a good QS with auto blipper and a slipper clutch. For me that's enough. At the end of the day I still want to shift myself.
The DCT idea is great as an alternative to those who do not need a clutch for maximum control. I am surprised Honda is recalling all Goldwings since 2018 due to DCT transmissions blowing up catastrophically w/o warning. They also have a recall on the gas pumps.
And the records were scratched and they would skip and skip. And that's the way it was. And in saying that, I do not own a automatic car, truck or motorcycle. And will not. Yes, I am a dying breed. To shift is to live. Like Kevin said " if you DCT, you go Brother, but not for me.
I reckon I'm an orthodox religious gear shifter - I'll stick with the old fashioned clutch. Not a fan of quick shifters, either. After 55 yrs and 800k mi of riding I think I got it down. Interestingly, the young people I have taught to ride didn't have much trouble figuring out how to to sync hands and feet to get things done. I'm no luddite, I like tech that has a need to exist. I have no issue with the tech being available, but...I want less expensive "standard" models available. The price inflation of bikes, driven in large part by all of the nanny tech, is crazy. IMU ABS brakes have a need, and over 100 hp bikes have a need for traction control, but all the other gadgets are a waste on the street.
I'm 75, been riding since childhood, bought a Rebel 1100 DCT and I'm loving every mile. When my '97 Suzuki Bandit 1200 gave it up (in 2000) I was looking around and saw the Rebel DCT and thought I'd take a chance. I don't do thousand mile rides anymore but I enjoy riding, so I gave it a try. No going back now... :)
Same here i love my cmx1100, is just, great spexialy after inpreloaded the rear spring now is a joy to cruiser down the keys.
Nearly every supercar, hypercar, GT racing, formula 1/e etc., has a DCT at this point. So why is it such a bad thing on bikes?
Because I like choosing the gear and feeling like a boss.
@@mountainmandale1587you still can, there’s just no clutch…
Also, you don’t have to worry about clutch drops or stalls on hills !
@@mountainmandale1587 the grey button does that.
Riding the torque curve. . . . .
Because it's a bad thing on all those supercars including formula 1 it's boring boring boring boring boring boring. Never said it wasn't faster never said it wasn't quicker never said it wasn't more convenient never said it wasn't more safe but it is boring. I've written the DCT goldwing. thought it was going to be awesome. hated it it sounds like a Old Detroit Diesel 2 strike bus (but not as AWESOME) and there's not the gaps between shiftin. there's not the fun of the different sounds. I don't like it. I just don't like it. !! I totally get that other people do. I don't care. I just don't like it. I have a Corvette seven speed manual. I would never go past the c7 Corvette. the c8;Don't like it. bigger car, wider, longer. I don't like the rest of the car anyway but, with a manual okay. without a manual and the DCT; wouldn't care if you gave it to me for free. I'd have anybody else drive it across town to sell it instantly and buy another Corvette Manual. Is trade or for adifferent car 100%, without a doubt not even one seconds hesitation! All because it not a Manual.
After fifty years of riding the first thing I learned about my Africa Twin DCT is that it’s not an automatic. On the contrary, it takes just as much to learn how to use it as a manual. But, after a few thousand kilometers in many situations I came to admire its virtues and adapt to its limitations. While I do believe some of its functionality is superfluous, it’s still a very interesting and engaging piece of engineering. I like it, and I like my manually shifting bikes too; lucky are those who have choices!
It's an automated manual
Thank you Honda for this amazing DCT innovation! I am someone who started riding a manual transmission bike many years ago, but due to a non-motorcycle related injury, I can no longer use a shift lever. Subsequently, I thought my riding days were over completely, until the DCT came along. Now as a “differently abled” man, ( I don’t label myself as disabled) I am thankful that I can once again do something that I really enjoy! Also, my Honda Rebel CMX1100 DCT can outperform a lot of bikes that are on the roads and I love it! I have absolutely no problem accepting change, life happens. When it’s beneficial technology, I’m all for it! Thanks for the informative and insightful video guys. 👍
Differently abled ! I'm a member of that club too ! Can't wait for the day I can ride again .
@@decencywarrior9598 “Differently Abled” I am pulling for you!! It takes faith, determination, hard work and commitment and you will get it done! The first thing I realized was that the term “disabled” is a label 🏷️ that gets slapped on people who have suffered a life changing injury or illness! I refuse to wear that label. I can to do a lot of things that “abled” people do, I just do them differently. Therefore, I am differently abled! You will get there! 💪
Love my Africa Twin with DCT. I actually suffered a clutch thumb injury from commuting on a BMW with a stiff clutch. It's been five years now and I think my thumb has recovered but still ride the AT. I was glad to stay on two wheels and now have grown to love the DCT. It's great tech.
@@thoughtsparks I agree with you 100%. It’s all subjective, if someone wants to ride a Manual or DCT bike there’s no problem with that. I am grateful that the option is available because there was a time when a person with a of physical limitation had to hang up their helmet because only manual bikes were available. At 64 years old I’m glad that I am not an “old head” when it comes to change for the better. The phrase “Ride your ride” encompasses a lot. 👍
had the Honda 750 automatic from 1977 great bike and now I will be buying a DCT bike only way to ride a bike again have had little use of the left hand since a work accident great vid guy's
The truth is after selling my Harley Heritage Classic of which I loved I bought a new Honda NC 750 x DCT and absolutely love it. I have had some health issues and I can continue riding with much greater ease. I am 65 and have no ego and macho crap to display and all that bologna any more. Been there done that. Just humble older guy who is enjoying my renewed joy of riding. What ever works for you is what I advocate.
If nothing else giving more riders with injuries an opportunity to ride then I'm happy for those folks. After a crash at Bonneville in 2023 it took me a few months to get my left hand working. If my left hand had not began to work again I would have went to an automatic transmission after 55 years of riding.
I personally love my Gold Wing DCT and I have been shamed many times. Now I smile and say let’s go to the mountains and catch me if you can.
Well dont have one because of the wait, but have tested and is a great pice of a machine. Enjoy it.
Not a problem to catch a gw in curves, dct or not
That would depend on who is on it.
I guarantee my K1200LT will catch you. 😁
@@larryvaughn7243 not with me chasing the gw
Very interesting discussion gentlemen. To never try something new is to remain fixed in the web of time.
Thanks Gents! I have followed both of you for many years dating back to when I had a magazine subscription to Cycle World - glad to be able to STILL enjoy your commentary, in whatever fashion that is still available. I recall an old CW article on the VFR1200 DCT wherein it was ridden across country...when DCT was still in its infancy. Amazing that riders, nearly 15 years later, are still complaining about this advancement in the technology. While I will be sticking with a manual transmission for my newly ordered 2024 Africa Twin AS, the DCT model was a serious consideration...Cheers from Ontario Canada!
Remember the Moto Guzzi Convert, 2 speed automatic with torque converter. Mid 1975. Not a true performance bike but handled pretty good.
I ride Africa Twin DCT as I lost my right arm in a motorcycle accident in 1999. I tried Honda's DN-01, Yamaha's FJR-1300AE, Aprilia Mana 850 CVT and the Africa Twin. The AT DCT is by far the best solution. I'll try out the E-clutch too but the DCT is surprisingly good. I even created my own e-clutch for a MT-09 which was a potentiometer for a thumb clutch, servo in the rear seat and cable that runs to the clutch. It works, but the e-clutch looks very promising as its two giant servos in the case and it's hooked up to the ECU. Anyone who clutches their purse saying, "auto bikes are no good" (pun intended) - needs to have a long hard look at themselves. This ex-national superbike rider does not give a rat's arse about what you ride, just ride.
I’m old enough to remember the outrage when kick start levers started disappearing.
How many of us now want a kick start?
🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯. It’s just people are so rigid in the old ways , they get pissed off when technology makes things easier.
There would of been people pissed off about washing machines
DCT is excellent for 2 up, excellent for highway and long trips, nothing better out there IMO. For me, owning multiple bikes, I wish I had bought the manual version. I would love to see them keep the DCT but add a clutch, so you could use it if you needed like low speed or at stops. Also when coming into gas stations on long rides when I am tired, engaging the clutch just helps navigating all the vehicles. I love the DCT, but really wish for the Clutch.
What do you mean , Honda's DCT have 2 clutches
I test rode a 2018 DCT Wing. I took a pretty long test ride, more than 60 miles, and just wasn’t a convert. I didn’t care for it at low speeds in particular. I learned to ride when I was 10 years old on a mini bike with a clutch and after 55 years of riding, the clutch just isn’t an issue for me other than in stop and go traffic. However, I work hard to avoid that on a motorcycle so it is rarely an issue. Now, if I lived in a city, then an automatic bike would be useful as it is on a car in similar circumstances.
Talk to me about the electronics cutting in slamming the gear set, dose this impose a cost to the lifetime of the transmission
I recently sold my Africa Twin with DCT. I really liked the DCT, but the size of the bike was too much for my off-road skills. The DCT added another 20 pounds to the bike, but it was easy to use the paddle shifts when I was riding off-road.
Part of the problem is that with journalists etc resisting DCT Honda and the rest of the industry has failed to advance DCT. For instance much of the weight of the DCT is because it is essentially an add on gear box between the manual and DCT. Honda have a patented design for the NC750 which simplifies and reduces the size of the whole engine package but have apparently had no reason yet to use it as the NC seems to have been pushed into a commuter role. With different engine designs and electronic clutches , and even foot shifters, Honda could basically revolutionise motorcycling but resistance to change has had an important part to play. Ironically every man and his dog are introducing quick-shifters and DCT is, in effect, a very fast quick-shifter as it even preselects the next cog.
I believe Honda's very first DCT was in 2010 with the introduction of the VFR 1200 motorcycle. It was available both with DCT or the normal 6-speed manual. It proved one thing, that Honda could create a reliable setup for a high horsepower engine. At that time it added almost $2,000 to the price of an already expensive motorcycle. I have that extremely powerful bike but with the normal 6-speed manual.
I have a 2022 HD Road Glide, and just bought a 2024 Goldwing DTC. Wasn't sure if the DTC was right for me after shifting motorcycles for 40 years manually. Yes, it has taken some miles to get used to, but the bike will shift for you if you want, no clutch pulling or you can control it manually with paddle shifters, instant gear changes up and down. It's really fun and quick!! I do still find myself reaching for the clutch as I am coming to a stop sign, but the bike shifts down to 1st and never stalls, and you just apply the brakes and stop, zero drama or issues. Is it necessary for me to have DTC, no, but I feel like it's a modern convenience that just grows on you with time, and it's a Honda so it works perfectly!
Thank you for making the digital leap. As much as I've loved the magazine for years, I really love seeing you in person on a screen, doing your thing, being yourselves, and letting me really hear your voices. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Btw for low speed DCT rear brake throttling is how you feather the clutch
Kevin Cameron.
Casey Stoner wanted the electronic aids removed when he first started racing in the Moto GP class, and every year he was participating in it.
It was NOT a "get off my lawn" moment said years after his retirement.
If the electronic aids were not on Moto GP bikes when he was racing them, the other competitors, including Rossi, would not have even seen which way he went.
He would have left them for dust.
In fact, when Ducati were testing to select a new rider for their new 800 Moto GP bike, Casey was not their first choice.
At the test, Stoner was not going as they expected and Casey's father, Colin, suggested to the Ducati team that they wind back all the electronic aids as much as possible, and let Casey ride the bike again.
They reluctantly agreed to try this, and after Stoner rode the bike again, he was signed as their number one Factory rider.
He won the first Moto GP round on it, dominated the rest of the season, and went on to win the Moto GP Champioship that year.
If you want to witness THE BEST riders at the highest level of Moto GP racing, I think you should respect what Casey Stoner is suggesting in removing some of the electronic rider aids.
I don't know if we are watching the best riders available now in the series, just as when the big-bang engines were introduced in the 500cc GP days, suddenly all these EURO riders were running with Doohan, Gardner, Rainey and Schwantz.
Mick was smart though, called for the old screamer engine to be fitted to his bike, and beat all the big-bang Euro riders, just to show them who the most talented rider was.
On Stoner, there are two interviews on RUclips with Nicky Hayden and Ben Spies where they explain why Casey Stoner is the most talented rider they had witnessed in Moto GP.
The Moto GP team data guys will tell you the same thing.
Without electronic rider aids, you will get to witness the best riders.
A great discussion about technological advances, from an old school analog motorcyclist! Caused me to wonder what how the world's axis would wobble if the 'Bagger's' racing series would include/allow Goldwing DCTs, K1600s, FJR-1300s, et al. My last ride was on a '06 FJR-1300. The whole motorcycle experience has changed since I last rode in 2010!!!! As a 69 year old, I look forward to experiencing some new tech, while being able to resort to that which I know as I re-enter the motorcycling world.
I often wondered about reliability of the Honda DCT, specifically the clutch. Since there are 2 sets of gears engaged. One with the clutch released propelling the motorcycle and a second set of gears with the clutch depressed for lack of a better explanation. The question was on the drag on the clutch plates and the release mechanism, throwout bearing. It would be interesting to see oil analysis on a DCT to understand the presence of clutch friction material and metals.
There is no throwouut bearing. The DCT works the same as an automatic transmission clutch pack, its a piston driving a clutch pack into compression to transmit drive. When it's released a spring holds the clutch pack disengaged, so no oil pressure, no clutch engagement. Clutch Longevity? Will be similar to a normal automatic, only difference is that these use engine oil rather than atf. Clutch material is the same as all other motorcycle clutch material.
40,000 km on my DCT and no issues at all.
Thank you for the explanation.
I watched this podcast with great interest. I have ridden the dirt, street, trials since 1970. Have been test riding new Gold Wings after many years without one. The dealer has been pushing the DCT during test rides. As a trials rider the hardest thing for me to give up is the low speed handling advantage the clutch has. Thinking that I will spend more time on the two lane than I will in the parking lot is helping me to lean towards giving the DCT a try. I will likely always have clutched bikes in the stable to keep those skills honed.
I love my 2017 Africa Twin DCT. The shift changes feel just like manual clutch action. Drive, 3 sport modes and manual paddle switching. Could be that I’m 66 now. But I like shifting the Bonneville also.
At age 66 I made the decision to trade in my beloved 2005 Honda Goldwing ABS. Though I haven't test driven a DCT, your discussion really helped me to understand the benefits of that system. Really appreciate this information guys, thanks so much!
Automatics are great. Its one of the reasons why i ride a scooter now. I would absolutely ride a motorcycle again if more autos were available.
Interesting discussion. The history discussion made me suddenly remember a motorcycle I totally forget I've ever seen. It was an automatic Husqvarna enduro bike way back in the 70's at an agriculture equipment expo of all things... Googled it up just now and, yeah, this was a real thing:)
Love the podcast. As a long time rider and current Honda DCT owner I agree with Mark the only time I miss a clutch is on low speed U turns.
Ya me to at first at slow speeds but with practice and using the rear brake with a little throttle you can maneuver the DCTs at low speeds with confidence. Practice , practice.
Interestingly, the first generation Toyota Prius was designed to keep the engine at the optimal speed for best gas mileage, but that meant that it would go to a particular RPM and hold it, resulting in a "motorboat drone" sound on acceleration. This annoyed customers to the point that the Toyota added faux shifts on the next generations, even though they actually reduced fuel economy a tiny bit.
I saw a video where a guy was using a Honda e clutch & he was a track instructor for a different team other than Honda & I was surprised how much he actually liked it but he did I mean I understand a dct on a Goldwing as it's almost like driving a small convertible on an all day ride also I remember my 73 z50cc Honda minibike aka monkey just clicked 3 down with no clutcj
In a divided world full of I want the best, it’s lovely to hear two mature guys who can flow from one technology to another grinning all the while. It’s not so much what you have but enjoying it all in spite of any limitations or advantages
I believe Honda introduced the DCT on the VFR.
The DCT was in their atvs first for years and has been awesome in that platform. IMO it is perfect for motorcycles as well.
I really want you guys to talk more about that fascinating Honda e-clutch. Is it a better quick shift? Do they integrate an auto blip? Why? Is it a complete solution to a problem or a half measure?
This WAS a great argument on get out of that rutted lane. Keep on trucking.
I thought they were pushing these automatics due to the ability to run the bikes lean & upshift sooner for emission reasons I still think that's part of their reasoning
Linotype and hand type setting is what I did in my youth. Love the smells of a printshop.
Mark touched on an important point I hoped one of you would make: the hostility towards automatics/semi-autos is very much related to what happened in the car world. Once automatics became practical and affordable (and eventally faster), fewer people bothered to learn how to drive manuals and many others switched to automatics. The manufacturers naturally moved almost entirely away from manuals, virtually eliminating the choice. That's a significant worry. Is it as likely to happen the same way with motorcycles? Maybe not since motorcycling in the first world is more of a pleasure/lesiure pursuit and is even more influenced by the wants of enthusiasts. But when manufacturers keep talking about making motorcycles "more accessible to more people," you have to wonder a little.
To some of us, manual control of the gears and clutch is a significant part of what makes riding engaging and satisfying, much like the balance aspect Mark also mentioned. I have no issue at all with DCTs/autos/semi-autos. Hell, one of my bikes has an up/down quick shifter with auto-blipper. But I choose not to use it more than I choose to use it. So, that's probably more than enough for me right now.
I don't think anyone really objects to automatic transmissions existing. They might just be a little worried that at some point manuals won't be allowed to exist.
Some months ago I saw part of a video where there was 3 guys somewhere in what looked like south America fighting through thick mud for miles, eventually 2 of the 3's clutches burned out, I kept thinking the other one will burn out any time now, but it never did, then I realized it was a Twin with DCT. that stuck with me. I hear riding a lot of deep sand will do the same. I now have a Twin with DCT.
I recently bought a used 2019 goldwing tour DCT. I have owned dozens of motorcyles of various shapes and sizes. I test rode a manual 2018 before buying it. I bought it because I have ridden clutched manual transmissions my whole life and wanted to see why it was so popular. I also have owned several semi auto bikes like a honda super cub which is an absolute blast to ride. It has been several weeks and it is slowly growing on me. The bike has several different faces. The ability to ride lopeing along in automatic in slow traffic, the ability to manually instantly downshift in automatic mode, the blistering fast sport mode in manual mode. The bike has many personalities. The big challenge is slow speed riding without a traditional clutch friction zone. You must learn to use just throttle and rear brake only. Takes practice. I find the difference part of the challenge. I am improving every day. Its the greatest bike I have ever owned.
Honda’s dct came out on the 2011 vfr 1200 I believe and the Gold Wing is the only one with 7 speeds and the others are all 6 speeds.
1940's Salsbury scooter in late 1950's, had three (3) with my younger brother.... centrifugal variable transmission...
I had a test ride on a NC750X DCT, and knew it was going to be my next bike within a couple of miles. When I got back to the dealership I put a deposit on one. That was back in 2016 I still own the bike and have no intention of changing it. My mates thought I had lost my mind trading in my 2010 Triumph Speed Triple SE for it, I can tell you it's the best decision I've ever made with motorcycles.
Great video with plenty facts and truths. 👍
I got hooked on CVT working at a bmw dealership when we took on Kymco scooters during the big gas price increase in 2009-10(?)
In our part of Calif gas was $6.50 gallon .
We sold them like hotcakes . Couldn’t get enough of them .
I of course ended up with one and fell in love with it .
(People 200S) 60’ish MPH and what, 70-80MPG.
I’ve had 4 of them and currently have yet another 200S.
One Summer I rode my scooter more miles than I rode my BMW RT.
Silly to say it was just easier to ride as I wore the same gear, same garage, same route to work but the weight and size was just easy.
Kymco was/is just crazy dependable.
Back then the 150cc and larger were made in Taiwan while the smaller ones weekend made in China.
Now I assume most of not all are made there.
Makes me think of brute force ATV.
The centrifugal clutch in downhill you'd either ride the rear brake to engage engine breaking, or throttle it slightly. And again you charge the dynamics.
I've lightened it and got one result, changed springs then weights and guy more changes.
On two wheels this may have problems because on a quad it's got huge tires, on dirt, and torque kinda came on to strong.... lugging over ruts was harder then my friends with a standard shift with auto-clutch
I published a review of one of the first DCT-equipped Gold Wings. I did a full sidebar piece on the experience of working with the Auto trans...calling particular attention to the fact that the control unit had a nasty habit of upshifting when one rolled off the throttle to set up a corner entry. To Honda's credit, they actually re-programmed the DCT control unit to consult the bike's Inertial Management Unit and not shift if the bike was leaned over -- my input was actioned and the problem was fixed. Also fun was the seamless upshifts at full throttle - not many folks would think to keep a full dressed Gold Wing Tour in a power wheelie through the first four gears, but with DCT, it was a cinch. Heck, it prolly would have kept the front wheel up all the way to 7th, but I was already well into 'go directly to jail' speeds, and didn't want to stretch my luck on a West Virginia public highway. Let's hear it for progress! ;-)
Eclutch is only on the cable throttle bikes btw. The Honda 650s are not ride by wire.
I myself am very interested if not excited about the development of automatic shifting. I have always been a sporting rider both on and off road including track days and racing I never thought I would say that.
However, as a double leg amputee I would love nothing more than to ride again. I was able to manage when I lost my right knee below the knee with a rigged up rear brake, but options for modifying the shifting to accommodate my left above the knee is an expensive and questionable modification. A factory built sporty bike would be just the thing to get me back out there doing what I love most.
Good conversation! Thanks.
Some people are cave men and some people are astronauts and that is ok. Each has their place. This all sums up to ride what you want and allow others to do the same. We don't all have to want the same things to all be happy.
2020 Honda Africa Twin Adevnture Sport DCT. Went DCT and never looked back. It can do anything a manual bike can do of the same catagory/size on and off road.
It’s bad enough Honda turns the wing into a sport bike but that DCT really hammered it in. A gold wing that does 150 mph ? Not for seniors any more. That seat really shows us.
I have a new MG V85 with the smoothest throttle response and easiest to hold at a steady speed engine I've ever owned along with cruise. I can cover the same 400km roads on my CVT Burgman 400 (no cruise) and it's even less tiring. It's all good. My wish list would be a Honda NC 750 with DCT, cruise and a shaft drive.
knees don't really work well anymore, dct sure but not without reverse gear, 😎😎
Philosophers at work/play.
Keep up the good work/play gentleman. ❤
Kevin needs a cool bike in the background like Mark's 900 cr / or ss .
As a former dealer, I am constantly mystified by the manufacturers' attempts to attract new, non-motorcyclists to riding. The "automatic" Hondas, then the PC800 come to mind. The automatics were costly to develop and never amounted to much, and the PC was a nice, simple handsome motorcycle that almost nobody wanted. Answers to questions that nobody asked...
A very engaging conversation from two high priests of our Church 👍
Electric bikes might become popular once solid state batteries become the norm however not for me especially on the street if traffic doesn't see me i want them to hear me
I have been riding in the UK since 1978. I have no DCT experience at all. My current bike has efi and 'HISS' and that is about it. Many riders have obviously taken to dual clutch operation and dont look back.Having listened to your discussion I have two areas where I would like to know more. Firstly, you suspect that, in some circumstances, DCT may have a negative impact on rider involvement and handling? and secondly, the early modern car/automobile 'flappy paddle' gear boxes etc appear to wear out sooner, where newer models being introduced mean that getting replacements can be difficult to obtain, and very expensive to install. Not being an engineer, to my way of thinking these are troubling concerns. Maybe I am being old fashioned here. Great Discussion BTW. Thanks.
I was sooo looking forward to the Honda E-Clutch discussion. Is that posted anywhere?
Production Note: Mark's off-the-cuff introduction rambled, and his voice varied in volume enough that it was difficult to understand what he said. On the other hand, Kevin spoke very clearly, in sentences, so he was much easier to understand. Kevin is always interesting to read or hear; I wish I had half his knowledge!
As I age, I'm looking forward to continue to ride the the categories of motorcycle I love with the advent of DCT type transmissions. I love nailing a sweet shift, up or down, but frankly a DCT type transmission will allow me to ride as I age. Time is the great equalizer. We all age.
All products evolve. Recently, some people started to buy modern phones with rotary dial... It is OK to miss "the old times" because of the memories we carry but life goes on and technology evolves. Also, new legislations require manufacturers to adapt. I keep my analog motorcycle but can't deny the advantages and comforts new bikes offer. As I am not getting any younger, the new tech might extend my motorcycle fun a little longer... In a few years, ICEs might not even be available (motorcycles and cars). Let's keep an open mind, folks. Even our kids, who we love so dearly, grow up and the relationship changes. The love doesn't go away and we all adapt. Stay safe and enjoy the rides.
Dont forget the Moto Guzzi v1000 convert which was before the hondamatic
I've had every model Honda equipped with the DCT, and still own my 2010 VFR1200F and a 2017 NC750X. The NC750 is the most seamless installation, with the engine and transmission being superbly matched, and due to the low cg and weight, is the least affected by low speed turning maneuvers (requires adapting on the GW most). I find I rode the Africa Twin and the NC just like a regular clutch equipped bike, simply substituting paddle shifts for foot shifts.
My VFR is Hondas first gen DCT, which seemingly due simply to computer programming, when driving in the auto mode, if you use the paddle shifters, it changes into the manual mode and stays there, so that quick downshift for a corner or passing requires resetting to the auto mode. Which is NOT intuitive or convenient.
BTW, would you fellows be aware of anyone or a business that could reprogram that to the later updated software?
In any case, I love all these transmissions, from the way the GW helps to manage a loaded touring bike, to the amazing feeling of the VFR snicking through the gears almost imperceptibly at full throttle in sport mode - I call it Warp Drive!
My present bike has an up/down quickshifter, which I use all the time, so the clutch for me is only for starting and stopping. I don't mind this one bit. In fact when I get into slow traffic, and have to feather the clutch, ( no lane splitting in Alberta unforturnately)my hand gets sore after a while and I start wishing that the clutch was automatic. I enjoy the manual transmission but could take or leave the clutch. It makes me wonder if Honda could increase their take rate on the Africa Twin DCT or NT 1100 by moving the manual shift buttons off the handlebar and making the shift selector a traditional lever in the traditional spot. Based purely on my own experience and preferences, I think I'd be perfectly happy with a bike that retained the shift lever but deleted the clutch lever.
The Africa Twin has an optional foot shifter that signals for gear changes electronically.
However, those low RPM torque values are from a dyno which is operated at WOT. An idling Gold Wing engine isn’t making 100 ft-lb of torque. Starting out is more affected by the flywheel mass of the engine than by the torque capability at WOT at off-idle RPM.
I am enjoying your podcast. I think it could be even better to add an occasional third person, an expert on the weeks topic
I have had a ‘21 DCT Wing for almost 4 years now after clunking from 1st to 2nd on Harleys for about 35 years and would never go back. And like all the drivers of the newer Porsche 911s, who have begrudgingly come to love paddle-shifting their DCTs because the sticks are gone, I too finger-shift my Wing along while Gregorian chanting inside my NeoTech II.
More to go wrong and with the technology advancement becoming to complicated it also limits the owner front doing maintenance
I remember when cars by large part were shifting to automatic transmissions and many people balked at this trend.
Balance? The motorcycle does not need anyone to balance it once moving, they will even go down the road without a rider until it crashes. Maneuvering certainly takes a rider...
I will say removing those electronics on MotoGP bikes would increase the distances between the first and tenth place rider. Personally I'd prefer the really gifted rider from a excellent rider with better electronics. I watch for to see the rider's talent displayed rather than who has the best software engineer. The next step will be machines racing with no riders.
This is a different discussion from street bike technologies usefulness and safety.
It's a no brainer. Ride whatever makes you happy. Doesn't matter what anyone thinks.
I was kinda hoping Mark could finish the Aprilia story but I'll take a Kevin induced sidetrack any day.
There are many times I wish my 600lb ADV bike had an auto but don't want the extra weight and complexity of DCT. The Rekluse-style clutches work fantastic and in a street application, ideal. I would pay for a Factory auto-Clutch without hesitation.
I'd say it depends, of course . For example a commuter with a DCT sounds great, but would it be as great for a sport bike?
Personally I have NC750X as one of my bikes and it's great for city riding, among other things. Smooth, VERY easy to ride exactly when I want to, or need to focus on the surroundings.
I've been riding bikes for bikes for 62 years and drove heavy trucks for my entire career . i will always prefer standards to automatics because you have better control .
The snobbery amongst bikers always amazes me. Nobody has to justify what car they drive, why do so many riders feel that they have to justify their choice of bike? I ride a Goldwing Tour DCT, I love it & I really couldn't give a rats ass what anyone else thinks of me for loving my bike. It was expensive and I could arguably have bought any bike I wanted, I chose the GW DCT and for me it is perfect. When I see other bikers on different bikes raving about how much they love them, I am honestly very happy for them. If we all reacted the same way and did the same thing then life would be utterly dull. Ride what you ride and love what you love.
Quite frankly, I am not sure having a few coordination barriers to entry to motorcycling is such a bad thing. If someone can’t coordinate a clutch, throttle and gear shifter, can they coordinate countersteering to corner competently? Can they coordinate trail braking if they enter a corner a little too hot? I think we often make it too easy for people to get into motorcycling and some who maybe shouldn’t become riders are not stopped at the initial stage of learning to use a clutch and instead get on the street on an automatic and then crash because they simply don’t have the coordination skills required to ride competently and safely.
Imagine trying to learn how to ride one todays busy roads with every other driver looking down at their phones. One thing many people don't realize is how crowded roads are these days. I have only been of of age for 15 years and roads these days are much more intimidating. Unless someone comes from dirtbikes, they have to learn the basics on much more crowded and distracted roads.
Coordination is one thing once it has a chance to become muscle memory. But in a pinch without experience? I would hope a new rider can rely on ABS and silky smooth shift to keep a new rider upright. Many have been scared off or badly injured due to inexperience that these aids would have helped.
Then there is the Honda DN-01 with its Human Friendly Transmission. Those that own one seem to love them to this day.
Mark, I would love to c the print mag come back.
Your left foot is there…your left hand is there…and your brain is there too. Why an auto or an extra auto speed with a bike you never have to downshift unless coming to a stop?
Did the VFR 1200 have a DCT or an FJR-type automatic?
The VFR1200 had a DCT.
Manual transmission in a car is the best theft deterrent there’s now.
Like others have said, ride what pleases you..I'll mostly keep my mouth shut.
But this is the comments section, so:
I can't stand them. I am, or was, a mechanic at a dealer, (making it just a hobby lately) and even riding them into the shop annoyed me.
The shop was very crowded, bringing a bike to my lift involves tight maneuvering. The day can get dull and repetitive, you do little things to amuse yourself...one of mine was, whatever I was riding in to work on, I'd try to make the whole trip with feet on the pegs only, like trials. It can be hard, doing this on a GL1800. I would try to ride onto the lift, front tire entering the wheel clamp, before putting feet down. It can be hard, depending on what's in the way and what you're riding.
Anyway, forget about doing that without a manual clutch, it is essential for the very delicate control needed.
I'm also a woods rider, and tend to minimize putting feet down, just as a matter of principle, although in very tight rocky woods trails, this is wishful thinking.
I've also ridden rekluse clutched bikes, and don't really care for them. Even, again, bringing a dual purpose bike into the shop without a manual clutch, standing on the pegs, maneuvering at 0.5mph, the manual clutch delivers, if the rider is able. If not, well, work on that!
If all you do is accelerate away from stoplights and try to blend in with traffic, knock yourself out! I don't think it's satisfying at all, though. The purpose of riding to me is the satisfaction of me controlling the machine well, and smoothly.
Don't like car autos or DCT's, or CVT's, either. I was on a date in maybe 89 or 90, and the girl asked why my car was smooth like an automatic, but I seemed to be shifting it. I think she was just asking, and didn't realize how I took it as a nice compliment. (Sort of..I generally feel that, once familiar with a clutch, I should be smoother than an auto, unless flat-shifting, without lifting the throttle foot one bit.)
Who, that really likes riding or driving, would want some part of it taken away? DCT...then CVT....then....video game?
No thanks! Learn how to shift.
I worked on a couple cb750a's that you mentioned...they aren't really automatic at all. It's a manual 2 speed with a torque converter instead of a clutch, and you could just leave it in either gear, 2nd being preferable. It will accelerate fine from zero in second. But very lazily. It was a little better starting in first, then upshifting, but not much- they were just turds in every way. It was more interesting to look at the parts microfiche than to ride, it you like to see how things work. They are interesting in that way. Another case of Honda flexing their engineering muscle, but giving a questionable result. At least they are usually reasonably reliable.
I rode the 1977 750A when it was new. If I remember correctly it was an auto 2 speed which rode like shit.
I am old in Motorcycle and Harley, Honda all my life. Part of the religion, then i got me self a DCT, for me is a super joy to have this new Honda tech, ans when am tire of it, i get my dirt bike and clurch ro my hearts content. Have my harley to renew my vaos of a devaut clutcher. I dont care if is DCT is just fine, is nothing more than tech to suit my mood. My only beef with dcr is not able to nutral when costing. Other than that Dual clutch is great.
DCT was introed on the VFR1200F 2010
The more people we can get into motorcycles the better.......................I want others to feel the joy and freedom that 2 wheels brings me.
I have no problem with DCT's, but I can't stand CVT transmissions.
right now I have a bike with a good QS with auto blipper and a slipper clutch. For me that's enough. At the end of the day I still want to shift myself.
The DCT idea is great as an alternative to those who do not need a clutch for maximum control. I am surprised Honda is recalling all Goldwings since 2018 due to DCT transmissions blowing up catastrophically w/o warning.
They also have a recall on the gas pumps.
Would be nice if electric bikes had a clutch so you could get on the power for a hill climb and modulate power with the clutch.
And the records were scratched and they would skip and skip. And that's the way it was. And in saying that, I do not own a automatic car, truck or motorcycle. And will not. Yes, I am a dying breed. To shift is to live. Like Kevin said " if you DCT, you go Brother, but not for me.
I think the debut of DCT was the VFR 1200 F.
Right on fellas!
Imagine if Honda had a design and patent for an electronic clutch that they could add to DCT to give people that slow manoeuvre control, oh wait.
Keep it up guys.
‘It was better in the OOOLD DAYS “
I reckon I'm an orthodox religious gear shifter - I'll stick with the old fashioned clutch. Not a fan of quick shifters, either. After 55 yrs and 800k mi of riding I think I got it down. Interestingly, the young people I have taught to ride didn't have much trouble figuring out how to to sync hands and feet to get things done. I'm no luddite, I like tech that has a need to exist. I have no issue with the tech being available, but...I want less expensive "standard" models available. The price inflation of bikes, driven in large part by all of the nanny tech, is crazy. IMU ABS brakes have a need, and over 100 hp bikes have a need for traction control, but all the other gadgets are a waste on the street.
These guys are great
Electronics allow riders that have not developed the feel to ride like a rider that has learnt feel.
All that money in the bank leaves us with interest we can add to live on.