As long as we (like every adaptation ever made) cuts out the last part of his journey where he meets the Houyhnhnms: utopian talking horses who keep humans as slaves. Gulliver eventually decides that the Houyhnhnms have the right of it, that humans (including his former loved ones) are filthy animals and horses are better people in every way.
I mean some fairy tale protagonists are more likeable- Jack is clever and the seventh son of the seventh son sometimes proves himself by being kinder and more thoughtful. But other times the wish fulfillment (or because the original was based on old standards of "the most vicious or bastardy person is the best" and they took out the most awful stuff the protagonist does) makes the lead character bland
What really struck me when I first saw this movie was how much it felt like a complete world. There is very little exposition to explain anything, but it felt like there was a lot more to the world than what was shown. Fantasy movies and even many books very often don't manage that very well. (Also, it's not very surprising that Tristan is kind of boring, Neil Gaiman's protagonists usually take a back seat to the richer world and story they move through.)
This is my favorite Robert De Niro movie. I just love his character so much, and he was having so much fun with it! There were a few things I liked better in Neil Gaiman’s book, and a few things I felt the movie did a bit better. I think for the character he was given, Charlie Cox did a well enough job with him, especially when he was working with such skilled actors.
:D It was originally called something more boring, but I'm pretty sure I saw the nickname in the comments and went YES, YES THIS IS PERFECT. (goes and looks)...actually, the original was Whitebread McMayo but the point stands. Welcome!
Tristan is more like the video game character that everything happens to. In fact, I think Stardust would make a Great RPG game. Here's the part with the pirates. Here's the part where you fight the witches. Etc.
When I first saw the trailer, I thought it was some weird adaptation of Final Fantasy IX. Airships? Pirates? Witches and magic? A setting somewhere between Victorian / industrial revolution times?
It was a good fun, family film which didn't take itself seriously. I really enjoyed it at the cinema and it gave me a "feel-good" sensation after watching it.
I'm not sure a Tristan / Harry / Hiccup comparison is telling, as the latter two had a lot more time for audiences to see growth and arcs. Considering the screen time devoted to the prologue and to follow Lamia, Septimus, Primus, Shakespeare, and Yvaine ( when she and Tristan are apart ), Tristan gets proportionally less time in his own movie than either Harry or Hiccup. That said, yes, Tristan is quite passive much of the movie. His hero's journey is about becoming a protagonist ( one who does rather than has done upon him ). When he debarks Shakespeare's ship, he has shown increased competence ( though still somewhat oblivious ). By the end, we see he is a match for even Septimus. I think a lot of the arguments made here about Tristan can also be made about Yvaine. Compared to Hermione or Astrid, she's a pretty flat character ( a pretty, snarky girl who's ignorant about most of the world, even her own feelings ). She needs Shakespeare's help just as much as Tristan does. I think a better analysis of Stardust ( at least the movie ) is to view Tristan and Yvaine as a binary hero. Alone, neither of them accomplish anything. When working together, they change and grow. Only Yvaine is capable of defeating Lamia, but she needs Tristan to do it. Tristan is Yvaine's prize as much as she is his. Tristan wants her, not what she can do for him ( her immortal heart ). Same for Tristan in reverse ( contrast Victoria only wanting what Tristan can buy her ). I like the movie for the entire ensemble, not for any one character ( okay, I'll watch almost anything with Michelle Pfeiffer, can you blame me? She was more stunning here than Batman Returns or Ladyhawke ). De Niro is fantastic, sure, but that's not enough to carry a whole movie.
I much preferred the book but De Niro was amazing. Actually so were the pirates. I'm sure the director said something like "You're all pirates, here's some scenery to chew. Would you like some ham with that?" Best part of an otherwise not terribly good movie.
This! I think it was worth is just for De Niro and his crew. Oh, god, the actor who played Tristan though, what happened? Did they use up all the budget on lightning effects?
I think you make valid points about the character in the film - but I just can't feel negatively about him. He's so sweet and good natured, and learns the true nature of a decent relationship. And Charlie Cox is just so natural. And cute!! "Nothing says romance..." best line from almost any film ever.
Not every protagonist needs to be deep. What matters most is the story as a whole, and the story in Stardust is awesome! It achieves its goal: being an awesome adventure film. What does it matter that the movie achieves its goal without a compelling protagonist? Not every protagonist needs to be deep.
This movie was one of the few early moments that I got some positive gay representation from. The bit at the end with Humphrey and Captain Shakespeare was gold!
I adore Stardust (no so much the book though), you're right about Tristan being a non-character a bit but I felt that was the point. He was an audience surrogate getting sucked into this world of fun and color like Dorothy. And I LIVE for the Sky Pirates.
I always felt that the story was more about an ordinary boy who was dumped into the fantastical. It's watching him go WTF while finding himself and finding love.
Or...watch it for Henry Cavill 🤗🤗🤗... I remember being shocked (a few years ago) when I saw stardust listed under movies Superman had done. I could not believe _that_ guy was superman. But it was a wonderful performance, even if it was just an "ah" - sword show-off scene where Humphrey challenges mc, and then promptly backs down - another funny scene, among the tons of funny scenes.
Movie Tristan isn't *supposed* to be anyone's favorite character. He's supposed to be generic. He's not supposed to sacrifice anything. As a coming-of-age allegory that's kind of the point. He's a stand-in for the viewer. Real people don't have to sacrifice anything to "grow up" as it were, though we are constantly told that we are supposed to. And the other more stand-out characters provide Tristan with a long list of choices of role-models for him (and therefore the target audience) to choose the best of to emulate and learn from which is exactly the definition of growing up - choosing who to emulate and choosing who you want to become. Having just watched your adolescence allegory Labyrinth video, watching this one makes me wonder why you don't see the same kind of story in Tristan. Sarah is every bit as vague and uninteresting as Tristan is, and she's certainly nobody's favorite character from that movie - but that's the point and in your Labyrinth video you seem to get that. Not sure why you expect more from a male lead in the same role, or why you can't catch the metaphor here when you got it so succinctly in Labyrinth.
The movie did the Tristian-Victoria relationship so dirty! In the books she's a perfectly nice girl, she just loves someone other than Tristain. When he gets back she totally rips into him about how he knew she was joking about the star and she never actually asked for or wanted him to go off questing for her, and he acknowledges that he was being an idiot. He then wishes her all the best happiness as she marries the man she loves (which is actually what helps break the spell on his mother). Then in the book they throw it all out the window for some cliche Nice Guy crap about "if a girl doesn't like you back she's a bitch, and the guy she likes is probably gay - LOL!"
The only defense I can say for Tristan is that his actor plays Daredevil and when I saw this movie he instantly got my attention. But yeah I definitely liked other characters more, like I even felt for the goat guy
See, I was really worried about daredevil on the basis that Stardust was all I’d seen Charlie Cox in before. Well this and Casanova where he plays basically the same part. And I love both Stardust and Casanova, but they are not the best adverts nor installers of confidence for your lead's ability to play gritty, troubled yet sometimes still charming, blind lawyer. Who can beat everyone up. Thankfully I was proved wrong, but I think there’s definitely a point here, Tristan doesn’t exactly have buckets of personality.
My favorite version of Stardust is actually the graphic novel, I feel like I never see ppl talking about it and I'm just commenting because I want more ppl to know about it
Aw, it makes me sad whenever people dump on the good guy male protagonist because he’s not as exciting as some of the other characters. I love Tristan Thorn. I love Will Turner. I love Raoul. They’re the genuine people dropped into bizarre scenarios who are just trying to deal and to help get the people they love through it all. It’s not a coincidence that all three are the love interests of interesting women who play a very active role in saving the both of them at the end. Because these are men who are willing to recognize the unique strengths of the people they love, and who (at least by the end) acknowledge that they sometimes need to step back and allow someone else to take charge for a time.
IDk I actually relate to Tristan. I have had crushes on people where I would legit do ANYTHING for them and they just turned out to be......not worth my effort. I mean when he sets out on his journey he can't fight and can't do much of anything else really, but through a journey he learns, as you said, that some people just don't deserve your love and he learns to fight. He starts off the story as quite a shrinking person. He gets beaten and humiliated by Humphrey in front of his crush. He isn't by any means someone you would root for. And you kinda just facepalm at his naivite but by the end of it you really root for him and his putdown of Humphrey is amazing. Its great to see him FINALLY stick up for himself and fight for someone who deserves his love. I am not saying Tristan is my FAVOURITE character, but he is a character I like. But great video. Thanks!
Not sure Tristan is a Hero, or is even meant to be. Its a story about nothing is what it first seems. Every character goes through this. If your looking for a Hero, Its everyone else around him, helping him along..Until the end where he final gets what it means.
Still love this film... :) And a fun video. For me the take away was... it doesn't matter how great, how small, how competent or not we are, but the world is just amazing and some of the people we meet will knock our socks off (Thank you Captain Shakespeare, Septimus & Lamia)! If you've not had the pleasure try to find a copy (digital or otherwise) of the Stardust illustrated story. Charles Vess's art is awesome :) -- & I kind of forgot on the first pass - Tristan's mum... there's an awesome manupilatrix!
Loved the book, hated the movie ever thought it had so many great actors and great lines... And now I know why! Thanks for that. I always wondered. You are spot on.
I love the stardust movie and book, but yeah tristan ain't my favourite character. HOWEVER tristan is 1 of my favourite male hero blank slate characters just because he, and the movie are not arseholes about it. 9/10 of male characters I've seen who do something big to try to 'get the girl'/prove his 'worthiness' for said girl end up 'realising' that the girl is a bad person or the movie implies that she's not worthy of this now not-useless lead, the quirky girl who stuck by him is worthy of him! I like how tristan's self-improvement is a gradual process and that his realisation that Victoria isn't right for him is just that, not that he's better than her or that she's an evil cow, he's just a different person now. He starts the movie by doing something ridiculously stupid (how tf is finding a shooting star supposed to prove your love/worthiness?? kidnapping a grown woman makes it even worse) in order to impress a girl but he's never mean or horrible to anyone else, not servants nor women, aside from the kidnapping yvaine part, which he quickly learns is bad, learning to treat women as individuals and not prizes to be won, don't you love it.
Hm. As someone who loves the movie Stardust, I never realized it, but you are quite correct. Tristan is not my favorite or what I think about when I remember the movie. He is more like the way I experience everything else, as though he's merely a stand-in for me meeting all those lovely and hilarious characters myself. Also, the old fella who guards the hole in the wall, I think of him. 😆
I love how in the book the witch has that interaction with either The Star or McWhitebread (can't remember which) where she goes "yeah, you're heart has already been surrendered, even if I cut it out it's no good to me now. I'm just doomed to die I guess. Made her so creepy
A passive protagonist can be interesting in novels if they have a compelling internal life and an interesting way of interacting with their environments, but it doesn't work as well in film. It's the reason Jane Eyre and Alice in Wonderland adaptions never live up to the source material. Having not read the book, I'm not sure if he comes across as badly in Gaiman's work.
the title of this video had Stardust in it, and I didn't figure out who Tristan Thorne was until I watched it, nor did I remember what he looked like. *I've seen Stardust 4 times.*
My favourite thing about this film is that at release (when I first watched it pretty much) it was my first introduction to DeNiro so years later seeing taxi driver and the like I was like oh this is why mum were creasing at the the cross dressing pirate so much
I've seen "Stardust" about a half dozen times. Read the title of this. Had no clue who Tristan was, but I saw _Stardust,_ and thought hey, isn't that that Robert deNiro movie with the witches and the bizarre knives?
I remember Stardust… I remember watching it and thinking "Oh, this reminds me a lot of The Princess Bride, except it's a little more grown up. Certainly more innuendo … but Tristan was certainly no Wesley. I've been reminded of the former many times over the years. The latter … not so much.
This is my problem with the idea of the hero as the "plain potato" that the other characters are toppings for. I don't buy for a minute that you need to have the main character be flavorless/colorless in order for the audience to relate to them. Will Turner wasn't colorless in *Pirates of the Caribbean* -- he was perhaps outshone by Cap'n Jack Sparrow, but he still had a strong, relatable characterization with a good sense of his motives and his flaws and his reason to clash with the other characters. Steve Rogers might've been handed some ridiculous lines, but he wasn't colorless either in his feature film or as part of the Avengers. He was given a good strong core around which you could weave the rest of the story, and he was defined with some traits that made it easy for him to contrast Tony Stark but also to contrast Thor, without any of those three coming out as "more of a character" than the other two. Cecil in the game *Final Fantasy IV* has a strong characterization, despite being surrounded by a dozen other characters with various characterizations. Darkwing Duck had strong characterization and major flaws, and he was the lead of his show. Each of the gargoyles in Disney's *Gargoyles* had a distinctive characterization; the same for Disney's *Recess* (another ensemble show). Lina Inverse of *Slayers* is one of the *most* colorful characters. Buffy of *Buffy the Vampire Slayer* is hardly lacking for characterization (and flaws). If you've got a main character who's flavorless then you're doing something wrong.
My favorite character in both the book and movie of Stardust is actually Severus. I have a soft spot for fun anti-heroes and likable villains, despite their more murdery tendencies. Deadpool (Comics & Movies), Tyrion Lannister (Books & TV show), John Constantine (Comics) and Loki Odinson (Movies) are other examples.
Tristan isn't just boring, he's practically a side character ... the main character's "prize" love interest. There are a few major conflicts going on, but he's off to the side of them. Obviously Yvaine and the necklace are the focus of the main conflicts. In contrast, Tristan's own personal "quest" to bring the star to his "girlfriend" is such small potatoes ... literally no one else cares about it but himself. Even when he kinda sorta kills one of the witches, all he actually does is free the animals who get righteous justified deadly revenge. Everything meaningful that Tristan gets is something that randomly happened to him rather than something he worked for, so much so that I think that's the point. He could have randomly touched the necklace gem at any time, fulfilling his destiny that he never knew about. I think the whole point was to highlight how ridiculous the King's idea for how to choose the next King was ... in the end, it was pointless. After all, the next King ended up being the last surviving male heir regardless. When Tristan "saves" Yvaine, he really does little more than show up. And then Yvaine saves herself. Tristan does show some bravery in fighting the Witch Queen, but he's completely outclassed in terms of fighting ability. He survives simply because the Witch Queen can't win. She can't defeat Tristan without destroying her ultimate goal. But letting Tristan win makes Yvaine powerful enough to blow her away in a literal flash.
I have some friends who LOVE the Stardust movie, building it up with comparisons to The Princess Bride, which of course I love, and when I finally got around to watching Stardust after I listened to the audiobook (only a month or so ago, in fact)..... I mean, I felt kind of guilty for how unimpressed I was? Maybe it was my own fault for listening to fans hyping it up and listening to the book first (and I wasn’t even totally in love with the book or anything, I just finished it thinking “yeah, not my favourite ever, but I enjoyed that”), so idk, it’s a bit of a relief to hear any opinion of it other than just “It’s great! I love it! It’s my favourite movie!” I mean, my negative opinion on the movie has a few layers, I admit mostly in “I preferred the book” layers, but....man, Tristan really dragged things down for me every time the movie focused on him, and I’m just kind of relieved RUclips randomly decided to drop this on my home page to let me know “it’s okay not to love the Stardust movie” lol
I’m still not over how NG and DW Jones were good friends and they both wrote books around that same poem. Therefore, all goodwill toward Tris is based on him being Neil’s Sophie.
No lie in sight, and no dislike. This is wild - I'd have thought someone , somewhere would have tragically identified with Whitebread McMayo and thumbed down.
I've never seen the movie, only read the book. And Tristan being so generic works in the book; he's just... well, you know when you go through interactive exhibits like The London Dungeon, and you have the dude in cosplay doing his In Character Voice as he schlepps you and the other tourists through the Experience? Tristan is pretty much that guy in the book, and that's really the point of it. YOU, the reader, are having the Experience; Tristan is just there to make sure you stick to the right path and don't go through any doors marked 'NO ADMITTANCE STAFF ONLY' by mistake.
Stardust is a lighthearted and fun movie worth watching for literally every character... that isn't Tristan. Forgot he existed about 3 minutes into the movie.
It is interesting to me that among the other outstanding cast members are Daredevil's Charlie Cox and Man Of Steel's Henry Cavill before they were famous.
Some of your older videos have been popping up on my "recommended" list lately, and I'm very amused to see you've been using "pun fully intended" for a years! I've noticed in a lot of fantasy works that the protagonist is the least interesting person on screen/page. I think sometimes that's on purpose, to allow them to act as audience surrogate, other times I think it's because the creator gets so wrapped up in showing off the world and characters they forget to give their hero a personality. Whichever was the case in Stardust, I really do love the film, but definitely not for Tristan.
I mean if you compare him to captain Shakespear and catwoman witch than yes, but those are really interesting characters. But I wouldn't say he's boring or not interesting. He is dreamer but with time he's getting more practical a confident. He is also quite smart and even funny. Most important part about him is development, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that, he's a bit anoying at the beggining but getting more interesting every second. He definitely isn't just vanilla good guy like luke skywalker.
Watching this in 2021 and haven't seen the film in about as long but liked it when I saw it (twice I think) and... I COULDN'T REMEMBER THE MAIN GUY'S FACE OR NAME UNTIL YOU SHOWED IT LOL So, point well made I s'pose lol.
i very vaguely remember watchign that movei but one thign that stood out to me is how when they were getting a ride from the pirates that only tristan got taught how to fight. Which always struck be as weird because a. the plan of the witches was to kill the star, wouldn't it be rather useful for her to say, know how to stab those who whish to kill her and b. it always struck me as rather uncharacteristic for Neil Gaiman. Then again he only wrote the book and not the film and it has been forever since ive seen that movie so maybe there was a reason or it.
I loved the comics (I own them!) and I enjoyed the movie and I'm probably going to agree with you on the protagonist and I'm very much looking forward to your thoughts on this matter but I'm only a minute in and the music overpowering your voice is kinda driving me up a wall. (Rather specifically, my brain is going "okay you need to close down that tab, whichever other tab is playing music right now; I mean we're trying to listen to her talk, why would you have something that distracting going on in the background? go turn off the music so we can listen to her" and it's hard to explain to my own brain that I can't actually do that.) Eh, it's only five more minutes. I can put up with this. Onward!
other thing that I don't like about the coronation scene are that the people from wall are there and hennery is gay which feels so tacked on and irrelevant
You said "Eh"...about Matt Murdock....okay...pre-Matt Murdock...but there must be some...granular...seeds...of Matt in there somewhere! Do the things that happen to him change him for the worse...or is he still a good man? Also being king (substitute for the super soldier serum) didn't corrupt Tristan. Yeah. I know. I'm stretching it. Actually...since you are away play-stabbing people...I can fill this comment with a lot of nonsense..."Pancakes don't have bones, because: Oranges." 'Do you soak your feet post-prandial?" I could tell "ginger" jokes...if I knew any. Wait! YOU should come to Canada! You'd be SO easy to find in the snow! Thank-you! I'm here all week...!
Super. The book is on my to-read list for March and now I'm dreading a little that he'll be as bland as Richard Mayhew from Neverwhere. I love Gaiman, I love his works, but boooy, an MC shouldn't feel like toast dipped in skimmed milk dragged along by other characters or plot - and he can do interesting main characters, too! Coraline is one of my most favourite girl protagonists, I love Bod, I love Shadow, just...gaah, Neverwhere... Sorry, i'm done. Feel free to delete. :)
Don't worry, it doesn't feel that bad in the book! He does actually have SOME agency (even gets his hand badly burned in a fight while protecting the star at one point. In the book you see and hear more of what's going on in his head - which is hard to do in a movie format without using the Dreaded Narration Trope - so, while he's still very much the Ordinary Bloke in an Extraordinary World, you do develop a sort of bond with him... kind of like the dumb puppy who keeps trying to be a Proper Dog but falls on his face as many times as he progresses.
Harry Potter is such the worst person, pretty much every other student is more interesting, sympathetic etc. He just breezes through the world being rescued by others while whinnings about how people dont do what he wanted.
Unpopular opinion ahead... Honestly, it's an issue I have with most of Neil Gaiman's main characters... At least from the few books I have read by him. The main character is never the most interesting character. On the contrary....
Is Harry endearing? I find him insufferably prideful and annoying. Also I find Captain America boring and don't like him. Sorry I cannot have anyone disagree with me, it's a bad habit.
I feel that movie Harry comes off a lot less likeable than book Harry. The main reason I'm at all interested in Captain America in the recent movies is basically for aesthetics/shipping.
Tristan Thorne: They call me Bland, Mr Bland, within 20 seconds after speaking with me, you will forget that I ever existed, why? because I am bland, never to be remembered in hindsight or foresight.
It is like an old faerie tale, the story isn’t about the protagonist - it is about what he sees on his fantasical journey. Like Gullivers travels.
As long as we (like every adaptation ever made) cuts out the last part of his journey where he meets the Houyhnhnms: utopian talking horses who keep humans as slaves. Gulliver eventually decides that the Houyhnhnms have the right of it, that humans (including his former loved ones) are filthy animals and horses are better people in every way.
I mean some fairy tale protagonists are more likeable- Jack is clever and the seventh son of the seventh son sometimes proves himself by being kinder and more thoughtful. But other times the wish fulfillment (or because the original was based on old standards of "the most vicious or bastardy person is the best" and they took out the most awful stuff the protagonist does) makes the lead character bland
It always feels like the main character is more of a plot point than a character.
What really struck me when I first saw this movie was how much it felt like a complete world. There is very little exposition to explain anything, but it felt like there was a lot more to the world than what was shown. Fantasy movies and even many books very often don't manage that very well. (Also, it's not very surprising that Tristan is kind of boring, Neil Gaiman's protagonists usually take a back seat to the richer world and story they move through.)
I love Stardust! It makes me happy. It's lighthearted and fun and doesn't try to be historical.
This is my favorite Robert De Niro movie. I just love his character so much, and he was having so much fun with it! There were a few things I liked better in Neil Gaiman’s book, and a few things I felt the movie did a bit better. I think for the character he was given, Charlie Cox did a well enough job with him, especially when he was working with such skilled actors.
"Mayonnaise McWhitebread" is the reason I hit play! Brilliant. And a very good point.
:D It was originally called something more boring, but I'm pretty sure I saw the nickname in the comments and went YES, YES THIS IS PERFECT.
(goes and looks)...actually, the original was Whitebread McMayo but the point stands. Welcome!
I love Stardust!... but yeah not because of Tristan.
Tristan is more like the video game character that everything happens to.
In fact, I think Stardust would make a Great RPG game. Here's the part with the pirates. Here's the part where you fight the witches. Etc.
When I first saw the trailer, I thought it was some weird adaptation of Final Fantasy IX. Airships? Pirates? Witches and magic? A setting somewhere between Victorian / industrial revolution times?
It was a good fun, family film which didn't take itself seriously. I really enjoyed it at the cinema and it gave me a "feel-good" sensation after watching it.
I thought i was the only one who remembered this underrated movie
One of my favourite films but be warned, the book is very different, and very dull.
I'm not sure a Tristan / Harry / Hiccup comparison is telling, as the latter two had a lot more time for audiences to see growth and arcs. Considering the screen time devoted to the prologue and to follow Lamia, Septimus, Primus, Shakespeare, and Yvaine ( when she and Tristan are apart ), Tristan gets proportionally less time in his own movie than either Harry or Hiccup.
That said, yes, Tristan is quite passive much of the movie. His hero's journey is about becoming a protagonist ( one who does rather than has done upon him ). When he debarks Shakespeare's ship, he has shown increased competence ( though still somewhat oblivious ). By the end, we see he is a match for even Septimus.
I think a lot of the arguments made here about Tristan can also be made about Yvaine. Compared to Hermione or Astrid, she's a pretty flat character ( a pretty, snarky girl who's ignorant about most of the world, even her own feelings ). She needs Shakespeare's help just as much as Tristan does.
I think a better analysis of Stardust ( at least the movie ) is to view Tristan and Yvaine as a binary hero. Alone, neither of them accomplish anything. When working together, they change and grow. Only Yvaine is capable of defeating Lamia, but she needs Tristan to do it. Tristan is Yvaine's prize as much as she is his. Tristan wants her, not what she can do for him ( her immortal heart ). Same for Tristan in reverse ( contrast Victoria only wanting what Tristan can buy her ).
I like the movie for the entire ensemble, not for any one character ( okay, I'll watch almost anything with Michelle Pfeiffer, can you blame me? She was more stunning here than Batman Returns or Ladyhawke ). De Niro is fantastic, sure, but that's not enough to carry a whole movie.
I’d still love to see a combat analysis of the final sword fight in this movie!
I much preferred the book but De Niro was amazing. Actually so were the pirates. I'm sure the director said something like "You're all pirates, here's some scenery to chew. Would you like some ham with that?" Best part of an otherwise not terribly good movie.
This! I think it was worth is just for De Niro and his crew. Oh, god, the actor who played Tristan though, what happened? Did they use up all the budget on lightning effects?
Tristan is a numpty, he is just the tour guide to this crazy awesome place.
Tristan is just a vessel for audience. And that's okay.
Yes, exactly! Like ‘Everyman’ the pilgrim from Pilgrim’s Progress.
I think you make valid points about the character in the film - but I just can't feel negatively about him. He's so sweet and good natured, and learns the true nature of a decent relationship. And Charlie Cox is just so natural. And cute!!
"Nothing says romance..." best line from almost any film ever.
Phenomenal!
I didn't even know who this was about until I watched it. I've seen Stardust a few times and always thought it was about Yvaine! Lol
Not every protagonist needs to be deep. What matters most is the story as a whole, and the story in Stardust is awesome! It achieves its goal: being an awesome adventure film. What does it matter that the movie achieves its goal without a compelling protagonist? Not every protagonist needs to be deep.
My favourite bit was the shelf of dead brothers. So funny!
#nocontext ;)
The song in the background is 'Rule the world' by Take That.
This movie was one of the few early moments that I got some positive gay representation from. The bit at the end with Humphrey and Captain Shakespeare was gold!
It's alright Captain, we always knew you were a woopsy
I adore Stardust (no so much the book though), you're right about Tristan being a non-character a bit but I felt that was the point. He was an audience surrogate getting sucked into this world of fun and color like Dorothy. And I LIVE for the Sky Pirates.
I always felt that the story was more about an ordinary boy who was dumped into the fantastical. It's watching him go WTF while finding himself and finding love.
Or...watch it for Henry Cavill 🤗🤗🤗... I remember being shocked (a few years ago) when I saw stardust listed under movies Superman had done. I could not believe _that_ guy was superman. But it was a wonderful performance, even if it was just an "ah" - sword show-off scene where Humphrey challenges mc, and then promptly backs down - another funny scene, among the tons of funny scenes.
5:53 To be fair, Mark Strong absolutely killed it in this movie
One of my favorite actors - & yes, he was perfectly cast in this.
@@aimee5259 Have you seen Kingsman? The guy is like 50% of the reason why its SO GOOD!
Loved this movie, I usually watch it every year on the first of January. And I LOVE that you have the Take That song in the background of the video!
I loved the dead and drowned fight sequence so funny - especially with the ghostly running commentary.
Yes - the movie is primarily white bread, but could you *please* do a fight analysis of Tristan and the animated corpse of Septimus?
Movie Tristan isn't *supposed* to be anyone's favorite character. He's supposed to be generic. He's not supposed to sacrifice anything. As a coming-of-age allegory that's kind of the point. He's a stand-in for the viewer. Real people don't have to sacrifice anything to "grow up" as it were, though we are constantly told that we are supposed to. And the other more stand-out characters provide Tristan with a long list of choices of role-models for him (and therefore the target audience) to choose the best of to emulate and learn from which is exactly the definition of growing up - choosing who to emulate and choosing who you want to become.
Having just watched your adolescence allegory Labyrinth video, watching this one makes me wonder why you don't see the same kind of story in Tristan. Sarah is every bit as vague and uninteresting as Tristan is, and she's certainly nobody's favorite character from that movie - but that's the point and in your Labyrinth video you seem to get that. Not sure why you expect more from a male lead in the same role, or why you can't catch the metaphor here when you got it so succinctly in Labyrinth.
You are right, but the rest of the cast was just so darned good!
The movie did the Tristian-Victoria relationship so dirty! In the books she's a perfectly nice girl, she just loves someone other than Tristain. When he gets back she totally rips into him about how he knew she was joking about the star and she never actually asked for or wanted him to go off questing for her, and he acknowledges that he was being an idiot. He then wishes her all the best happiness as she marries the man she loves (which is actually what helps break the spell on his mother).
Then in the book they throw it all out the window for some cliche Nice Guy crap about "if a girl doesn't like you back she's a bitch, and the guy she likes is probably gay - LOL!"
Yeah, I definitely watch for Mark Strong.
That is my second favorite part, the first being that when the film ends you just feel good.
@@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714 Very true! Thank you for pointing that out, haha.
The only defense I can say for Tristan is that his actor plays Daredevil and when I saw this movie he instantly got my attention. But yeah I definitely liked other characters more, like I even felt for the goat guy
See, I was really worried about daredevil on the basis that Stardust was all I’d seen Charlie Cox in before. Well this and Casanova where he plays basically the same part. And I love both Stardust and Casanova, but they are not the best adverts nor installers of confidence for your lead's ability to play gritty, troubled yet sometimes still charming, blind lawyer. Who can beat everyone up. Thankfully I was proved wrong, but I think there’s definitely a point here, Tristan doesn’t exactly have buckets of personality.
I love the whimsical nature of this film - the gay sky pirate, the power mad princes just great
My favorite version of Stardust is actually the graphic novel, I feel like I never see ppl talking about it and I'm just commenting because I want more ppl to know about it
Aw, it makes me sad whenever people dump on the good guy male protagonist because he’s not as exciting as some of the other characters. I love Tristan Thorn. I love Will Turner. I love Raoul. They’re the genuine people dropped into bizarre scenarios who are just trying to deal and to help get the people they love through it all. It’s not a coincidence that all three are the love interests of interesting women who play a very active role in saving the both of them at the end. Because these are men who are willing to recognize the unique strengths of the people they love, and who (at least by the end) acknowledge that they sometimes need to step back and allow someone else to take charge for a time.
I have always loved this film.
IDk I actually relate to Tristan. I have had crushes on people where I would legit do ANYTHING for them and they just turned out to be......not worth my effort. I mean when he sets out on his journey he can't fight and can't do much of anything else really, but through a journey he learns, as you said, that some people just don't deserve your love and he learns to fight. He starts off the story as quite a shrinking person. He gets beaten and humiliated by Humphrey in front of his crush. He isn't by any means someone you would root for. And you kinda just facepalm at his naivite but by the end of it you really root for him and his putdown of Humphrey is amazing. Its great to see him FINALLY stick up for himself and fight for someone who deserves his love.
I am not saying Tristan is my FAVOURITE character, but he is a character I like.
But great video. Thanks!
Not sure Tristan is a Hero, or is even meant to be. Its a story about nothing is what it first seems. Every character goes through this. If your looking for a Hero, Its everyone else around him, helping him along..Until the end where he final gets what it means.
Still love this film... :) And a fun video. For me the take away was... it doesn't matter how great, how small, how competent or not we are, but the world is just amazing and some of the people we meet will knock our socks off (Thank you Captain Shakespeare, Septimus & Lamia)! If you've not had the pleasure try to find a copy (digital or otherwise) of the Stardust illustrated story. Charles Vess's art is awesome :) -- & I kind of forgot on the first pass - Tristan's mum... there's an awesome manupilatrix!
Loved the book, hated the movie ever thought it had so many great actors and great lines... And now I know why! Thanks for that. I always wondered. You are spot on.
I also had a lot of feelings about the httyd franchise, so fanfic. How I would love to watch a video on them made by you!
the nice thing about having a bland hero in a situation like this is that it makes it much easier to project oneself into the role.
I love the stardust movie and book, but yeah tristan ain't my favourite character. HOWEVER tristan is 1 of my favourite male hero blank slate characters just because he, and the movie are not arseholes about it. 9/10 of male characters I've seen who do something big to try to 'get the girl'/prove his 'worthiness' for said girl end up 'realising' that the girl is a bad person or the movie implies that she's not worthy of this now not-useless lead, the quirky girl who stuck by him is worthy of him!
I like how tristan's self-improvement is a gradual process and that his realisation that Victoria isn't right for him is just that, not that he's better than her or that she's an evil cow, he's just a different person now.
He starts the movie by doing something ridiculously stupid (how tf is finding a shooting star supposed to prove your love/worthiness?? kidnapping a grown woman makes it even worse) in order to impress a girl but he's never mean or horrible to anyone else, not servants nor women, aside from the kidnapping yvaine part, which he quickly learns is bad, learning to treat women as individuals and not prizes to be won, don't you love it.
Tristran is a great moral character. He IS the book version of the movie version of Wesley from The Princess Bride.
Please consider talking about the swordfight between Tristan and Septemus.
Excuse me! I watch it for his hair! (Not the hair he has at the beginning but the makeover hair)
Tristan is awesome when you have forgotten half of the movie but just generally remember that it was fun and a good laugh but not really sure why.
Hearing Neil Gaiman read the book was a very different experience to the movie and Tristan made a little more sense. Still thought it a fun movie,
Hm. As someone who loves the movie Stardust, I never realized it, but you are quite correct. Tristan is not my favorite or what I think about when I remember the movie. He is more like the way I experience everything else, as though he's merely a stand-in for me meeting all those lovely and hilarious characters myself. Also, the old fella who guards the hole in the wall, I think of him. 😆
I love how in the book the witch has that interaction with either The Star or McWhitebread (can't remember which) where she goes "yeah, you're heart has already been surrendered, even if I cut it out it's no good to me now. I'm just doomed to die I guess. Made her so creepy
When I was a child Tristen was my favorite.
A passive protagonist can be interesting in novels if they have a compelling internal life and an interesting way of interacting with their environments, but it doesn't work as well in film. It's the reason Jane Eyre and Alice in Wonderland adaptions never live up to the source material. Having not read the book, I'm not sure if he comes across as badly in Gaiman's work.
the title of this video had Stardust in it, and I didn't figure out who Tristan Thorne was until I watched it, nor did I remember what he looked like. *I've seen Stardust 4 times.*
Your speech makes me think you need to watch Wynonna Earp. Plus, some fighting. 😃
My favourite thing about this film is that at release (when I first watched it pretty much) it was my first introduction to DeNiro so years later seeing taxi driver and the like I was like oh this is why mum were creasing at the the cross dressing pirate so much
I've seen "Stardust" about a half dozen times.
Read the title of this.
Had no clue who Tristan was, but I saw _Stardust,_ and thought hey, isn't that that Robert deNiro movie with the witches and the bizarre knives?
In an alternative universe Tristan is a blind ninja lawyer who protects the people of Hell's Kitchen from the evil undead ninjas of The Hand.
It's a BOOK! I never knew, I love this movie, I must now find book....
The book is by Neil Gaiman and Charles Vess, and while it is very worth finding, it is also very different from the movie.
I remember Stardust… I remember watching it and thinking "Oh, this reminds me a lot of The Princess Bride, except it's a little more grown up. Certainly more innuendo … but Tristan was certainly no Wesley. I've been reminded of the former many times over the years. The latter … not so much.
I did like Stardust. Man, I never noticed that. Maybe I still do. I'll have to try again.
This is one of those movies that is better when the female lead is the main character rather then the male lead
This is my problem with the idea of the hero as the "plain potato" that the other characters are toppings for. I don't buy for a minute that you need to have the main character be flavorless/colorless in order for the audience to relate to them. Will Turner wasn't colorless in *Pirates of the Caribbean* -- he was perhaps outshone by Cap'n Jack Sparrow, but he still had a strong, relatable characterization with a good sense of his motives and his flaws and his reason to clash with the other characters.
Steve Rogers might've been handed some ridiculous lines, but he wasn't colorless either in his feature film or as part of the Avengers. He was given a good strong core around which you could weave the rest of the story, and he was defined with some traits that made it easy for him to contrast Tony Stark but also to contrast Thor, without any of those three coming out as "more of a character" than the other two.
Cecil in the game *Final Fantasy IV* has a strong characterization, despite being surrounded by a dozen other characters with various characterizations. Darkwing Duck had strong characterization and major flaws, and he was the lead of his show. Each of the gargoyles in Disney's *Gargoyles* had a distinctive characterization; the same for Disney's *Recess* (another ensemble show). Lina Inverse of *Slayers* is one of the *most* colorful characters. Buffy of *Buffy the Vampire Slayer* is hardly lacking for characterization (and flaws).
If you've got a main character who's flavorless then you're doing something wrong.
My favorite character in both the book and movie of Stardust is actually Severus. I have a soft spot for fun anti-heroes and likable villains, despite their more murdery tendencies. Deadpool (Comics & Movies), Tyrion Lannister (Books & TV show), John Constantine (Comics) and Loki Odinson (Movies) are other examples.
Tristan isn't just boring, he's practically a side character ... the main character's "prize" love interest.
There are a few major conflicts going on, but he's off to the side of them. Obviously Yvaine and the necklace are the focus of the main conflicts. In contrast, Tristan's own personal "quest" to bring the star to his "girlfriend" is such small potatoes ... literally no one else cares about it but himself. Even when he kinda sorta kills one of the witches, all he actually does is free the animals who get righteous justified deadly revenge.
Everything meaningful that Tristan gets is something that randomly happened to him rather than something he worked for, so much so that I think that's the point. He could have randomly touched the necklace gem at any time, fulfilling his destiny that he never knew about. I think the whole point was to highlight how ridiculous the King's idea for how to choose the next King was ... in the end, it was pointless. After all, the next King ended up being the last surviving male heir regardless.
When Tristan "saves" Yvaine, he really does little more than show up. And then Yvaine saves herself. Tristan does show some bravery in fighting the Witch Queen, but he's completely outclassed in terms of fighting ability. He survives simply because the Witch Queen can't win. She can't defeat Tristan without destroying her ultimate goal. But letting Tristan win makes Yvaine powerful enough to blow her away in a literal flash.
I have some friends who LOVE the Stardust movie, building it up with comparisons to The Princess Bride, which of course I love, and when I finally got around to watching Stardust after I listened to the audiobook (only a month or so ago, in fact)..... I mean, I felt kind of guilty for how unimpressed I was? Maybe it was my own fault for listening to fans hyping it up and listening to the book first (and I wasn’t even totally in love with the book or anything, I just finished it thinking “yeah, not my favourite ever, but I enjoyed that”), so idk, it’s a bit of a relief to hear any opinion of it other than just “It’s great! I love it! It’s my favourite movie!” I mean, my negative opinion on the movie has a few layers, I admit mostly in “I preferred the book” layers, but....man, Tristan really dragged things down for me every time the movie focused on him, and I’m just kind of relieved RUclips randomly decided to drop this on my home page to let me know “it’s okay not to love the Stardust movie” lol
5:17 Is that Claire Danes? (I just noticed how old this video is.)
I’m still not over how NG and DW Jones were good friends and they both wrote books around that same poem. Therefore, all goodwill toward Tris is based on him being Neil’s Sophie.
No lie in sight, and no dislike. This is wild - I'd have thought someone , somewhere would have tragically identified with Whitebread McMayo and thumbed down.
Well you managed to will 2 into existence.
my favourite is either Septimus or the captain.
I've never seen the movie, only read the book. And Tristan being so generic works in the book; he's just... well, you know when you go through interactive exhibits like The London Dungeon, and you have the dude in cosplay doing his In Character Voice as he schlepps you and the other tourists through the Experience? Tristan is pretty much that guy in the book, and that's really the point of it. YOU, the reader, are having the Experience; Tristan is just there to make sure you stick to the right path and don't go through any doors marked 'NO ADMITTANCE STAFF ONLY' by mistake.
I enjoyed this movie enormously for Neil Gaiman's mythologizing.
Stardust is a lighthearted and fun movie worth watching for literally every character... that isn't Tristan.
Forgot he existed about 3 minutes into the movie.
It is interesting to me that among the other outstanding cast members are Daredevil's Charlie Cox and Man Of Steel's Henry Cavill before they were famous.
Some of your older videos have been popping up on my "recommended" list lately, and I'm very amused to see you've been using "pun fully intended" for a years!
I've noticed in a lot of fantasy works that the protagonist is the least interesting person on screen/page. I think sometimes that's on purpose, to allow them to act as audience surrogate, other times I think it's because the creator gets so wrapped up in showing off the world and characters they forget to give their hero a personality. Whichever was the case in Stardust, I really do love the film, but definitely not for Tristan.
I mean if you compare him to captain Shakespear and catwoman witch than yes, but those are really interesting characters. But I wouldn't say he's boring or not interesting. He is dreamer but with time he's getting more practical a confident. He is also quite smart and even funny. Most important part about him is development, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that, he's a bit anoying at the beggining but getting more interesting every second. He definitely isn't just vanilla good guy like luke skywalker.
In the comic, yes. I like Tristan. In the movie it's the pirate king that's my favorite. Bobby DiNero.
Watching this in 2021 and haven't seen the film in about as long but liked it when I saw it (twice I think) and...
I COULDN'T REMEMBER THE MAIN GUY'S FACE OR NAME UNTIL YOU SHOWED IT LOL
So, point well made I s'pose lol.
i very vaguely remember watchign that movei but one thign that stood out to me is how when they were getting a ride from the pirates that only tristan got taught how to fight. Which always struck be as weird because a. the plan of the witches was to kill the star, wouldn't it be rather useful for her to say, know how to stab those who whish to kill her and b. it always struck me as rather uncharacteristic for Neil Gaiman. Then again he only wrote the book and not the film and it has been forever since ive seen that movie so maybe there was a reason or it.
So right!
Mark Williams as a goat was awesome.
Great movie, but Tristan was surrounded by so much talent, he was always going to feel bland next to DeNiro, Pfeiffer & the princes.
Ironic that this Stuff You Like Episode centers on a protagonst that's mostly "meh."
Are you being Mocha, from Rosario and Vampire. I only ask because of your lovely Celtic cross.
You watch for Michelle Pfeiffer and Robert de Niro and that is a perfectly acceptable reason to like it and consider it a good movie.
The book is awesome! And so is Neil Gaiman.
I do watch for Tristan, for one reason: Eye Candy. Uwu, forgive me lord for I have simped.
Still bummed Septimus didn't win the throne :/
I loved the comics (I own them!) and I enjoyed the movie and I'm probably going to agree with you on the protagonist and I'm very much looking forward to your thoughts on this matter but I'm only a minute in and the music overpowering your voice is kinda driving me up a wall.
(Rather specifically, my brain is going "okay you need to close down that tab, whichever other tab is playing music right now; I mean we're trying to listen to her talk, why would you have something that distracting going on in the background? go turn off the music so we can listen to her" and it's hard to explain to my own brain that I can't actually do that.)
Eh, it's only five more minutes. I can put up with this. Onward!
other thing that I don't like about the coronation scene are that the people from wall are there and hennery is gay which feels so tacked on and irrelevant
I love your videos and your perspective... but the music in the background is both distracting and just bad.
OOOOO entiendo tu punto. Captain Shakespeare y el guardián del muro tienen mas carisma.
👍🏻
Claire yet again!
You said "Eh"...about Matt Murdock....okay...pre-Matt Murdock...but there must be some...granular...seeds...of Matt in there somewhere! Do the things that happen to him change him for the worse...or is he still a good man? Also being king (substitute for the super soldier serum) didn't corrupt Tristan. Yeah. I know. I'm stretching it. Actually...since you are away play-stabbing people...I can fill this comment with a lot of nonsense..."Pancakes don't have bones, because: Oranges." 'Do you soak your feet post-prandial?" I could tell "ginger" jokes...if I knew any. Wait! YOU should come to Canada! You'd be SO easy to find in the snow! Thank-you! I'm here all week...!
Super. The book is on my to-read list for March and now I'm dreading a little that he'll be as bland as Richard Mayhew from Neverwhere. I love Gaiman, I love his works, but boooy, an MC shouldn't feel like toast dipped in skimmed milk dragged along by other characters or plot - and he can do interesting main characters, too! Coraline is one of my most favourite girl protagonists, I love Bod, I love Shadow, just...gaah, Neverwhere...
Sorry, i'm done. Feel free to delete. :)
Don't worry, it doesn't feel that bad in the book! He does actually have SOME agency (even gets his hand badly burned in a fight while protecting the star at one point. In the book you see and hear more of what's going on in his head - which is hard to do in a movie format without using the Dreaded Narration Trope - so, while he's still very much the Ordinary Bloke in an Extraordinary World, you do develop a sort of bond with him... kind of like the dumb puppy who keeps trying to be a Proper Dog but falls on his face as many times as he progresses.
Harry Potter is such the worst person, pretty much every other student is more interesting, sympathetic etc. He just breezes through the world being rescued by others while whinnings about how people dont do what he wanted.
Unpopular opinion ahead... Honestly, it's an issue I have with most of Neil Gaiman's main characters... At least from the few books I have read by him. The main character is never the most interesting character. On the contrary....
Is Harry endearing? I find him insufferably prideful and annoying.
Also I find Captain America boring and don't like him.
Sorry I cannot have anyone disagree with me, it's a bad habit.
I feel that movie Harry comes off a lot less likeable than book Harry. The main reason I'm at all interested in Captain America in the recent movies is basically for aesthetics/shipping.
Captain America is the drying paint of the MCU.
Tristan Thorne: They call me Bland, Mr Bland, within 20 seconds after speaking with me, you will forget that I ever existed, why? because I am bland, never to be remembered in hindsight or foresight.
You are probably right, but I still gonna hit the thumbs down button.