Yuval Noah Harari: Perils of viewing Israel-Palestine through the 'victimhood' context | GZERO World
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- Опубликовано: 13 мар 2024
- Within the context of the Israel-Gaza war, @YuvalNoahHarari and Ian Bremmer talk about transforming victimhood narratives into shared empowerment and the subtle, yet crucial, distinction between positive patriotism and dangerous nationalism.
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In a wide-ranging conversation with Ian Bremmer, filmed live at the historic 92nd Street Y in NYC, bestselling author Yuval Noah Harari discusses the profound role narratives play in conflict resolution and identity politics. It’s through this framing that Harari and Ian address the latest conflict between Israel and Gaza. Victimhood, Harari posits, often comes with an element of truth, but it carries the danger of absolving individuals or nations of responsibility. "If you think about yourself primarily as a victim, it relieves you of all responsibility," he explains.
Bremmer also presses Harari on the notion of narratives, and particularly, how to distinguish between patriotism and nationalism. Harari describes patriotism as the love for a unique group and a willingness to do more for them, akin to how we treat our families. Nationalism, however, turns perilous when it crosses into supremacism - when love for one's group becomes an excuse to despise and discriminate against others. Harari asserts, "It becomes dangerous when we start saying this group of people, they are not just unique. They are superior."
Harari defends the possibility of simultaneously supporting the rights and dignities of both Israelis and Palestinians. Holding dual narratives of both people's aspirations to live dignified lives in their homelands is not only possible but necessary, according to Harari. "Just because you are in favor of the rights of Palestinians doesn't mean you have to be also in favor of destroying Israel completely," he states.
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Oh no Mr. Hararai. You now made it clear where you are standing on this. Israel makes a best effort!?
I'm thinking that as Mr. Harari speaks of a People feeling superior he also takes on this motive while speaking of the Palestinians potential futures. I would imagine that most Palestinians don't have that luxury while they are being ethnically cleansed in Palestine at this moment.
Jonathan, I am sorry but you don't understand the conflict at all. The people who feel superior are the Muslim Arab population who do not agree to allow Jews to live here (unless as 2nd class citizens), let alone be a majority. They are the ones who want ethnic cleansing but thank g-d we can defend ourselves and prevent it. Those non-Jews who wish to live in peace live peacefully alongside Jews. The proof is in the numbers! Look how many Jews live in Muslim countries before and after 48 and look at the number of Muslims living in Israel...
Is Mr. Harari being deliberately naive?
"The Israeli government dispatched a medical aid team to assist survivors in Rwanda, led by the minister of environmental protection, Yossi Sarid. But that mission was all for show, because the Israeli government had shipped weapons to the brutal Hutu regime, which had killed around 800,000 Tutsis in 100 days. Such shipments included Uzi submachine guns and hand grenades, both before and during the genocide."
The Palestine Laboratory by A Lowenstein
But he is not wrong.. you probably are... if you don't want to realize this reality, it doesn't changes that the facts ... i advice you to listen less to Al-Jazeera and other biased media outlets and think for yourself
@@sreddie1 Your opinion versus my facts. Ok
@@sreddie1
Nice biaised advice...
@@seanomaille8157 your "facts" are nothing more than a modern antisemitism.. blaming Israelis and Jews for all wrongs in the world, and use biased half-truths to push your agenda.
I'll take Yuval's and my facts , and our opinions anytime over your crazy racist BS
I mean check his background.... You'll be less surprised
Theory, even the most brilliant one, may fall short in the face of reality. especially when you are part of the equation.
Victimize oneself can serve too many purposes, being one of them "best midia excuse to carrying a pre defined plan." As he cited, " Superpowers also do it like Russia, " but he forgot to mention Israel.
But he is not wrong.. you probably are... if you don't want to realize this reality, it doesn't changes that fact they are... i advice you to listen less to Al-Jazeera and other biased media outlets and think for yourself
@@sreddie1I listen to BBC and CNN and even their mild coverage is horrible to listen to. Israel is becoming a pariah state.
Kkk
defintely he is brave and noble man, but he say: Israeli has the right to live in their homeland and i totally agree but the question is: what is their homeland? is it the land that they migrated to and occupied by killing its people and stealing their homes and land? does this make it their legitimate land?!?
The Palestinian mandate was supposed to be converted into two states, one Jewish, one Arab. The mandate was established on land previously being submitted to Ottoman imperial rule. Are you against this decision, and if yes, why? Would a civil war (which actually happened) have been the better option? It was clear that the Arabs wouldn't accept to live with Jews, and the Jews, in turn, didn't feel it possible to live with Arabs (even though the latter has been the case, whereas the Arabs did expel Jews from the areas the Arabs conquered in 1948). The Arabs rioted against the Jews in 1929 and again in the Arab revolts in the 1930s. Why is the expulsion of Jews okay, but not the expulsion of Arabs? Are population transfers reason to insist that a nation shouldn't exist? If so, why would you think that Turkey or Pakistan should be allowed to exist, but not Israel? Is it occupation of other countries or people's areas? If so, why should Morocco, Iran, Iraq, or Turkey exist, but not Israel?
very well put
And how exactly did you think your country was founded? You think your country’s founders was the first to step their foot on that land and magically noone was living there and founded it? Or there was some small amount of people living there and your country’s founders just went up to them and asked them nicely to have their land and they just accepted? You need to learn some history.
You should educate yourself about Muslim colonialism (how they invaded and conquered many countries and who lived there before) and where are now all the Jews that lived in those countries from ancient times. How many were killed and how many were displaced. Do you know Egypt's history before Muslims came and destroyed its native people? So many muslim countries 50+ do you think they did that by asking ? Not only many jewish people were ethically cleansed from many muslims countries just see how christians are treated there.
Palestinians are mainly Arab migration workers that for 1920 flooded the land to work for British. In their names you can see their origin. So technically they are not Palestinians. Does this knowledge change anything in the current situation? No.
Quote from Zuheir Mohsen a senior member of the Palestine Liberation Organization,
"There's no such thing as a separate Palestinian people, there's no difference between Jordanians Palestinians Syrians... the Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons. The creation of a Palestinian state is a new instrument in our ongoing war against the state of Israel and for the purpose of our Arab unity.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen
"Mohsen himself stated that there were "no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese", though Palestinian identity would be emphasised for political reasons. In a March 1977 interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw he stated that "between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese there are no differences. We are all part of one people, the Arab nation [...] Just for political reasons we carefully underwrite our Palestinian identity. Because it is of national interest for the Arabs to advocate the existence of Palestinians to balance Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons", representing the Ba'athist perceptive regarding the question of Palestine"
At the formation of (Trans)Jordan, 50% population was already Palestinian.
Then Jordan annexed West Bank in 1950 and the number rose to ~75%. Entire West Bank was given Jordanian citizenship.
Then another demographic change happened in 1967 when Israel took control over West Bank. The number reduced but then Jordan which was already using Palestinian Fidayeens (suicide bombers) as proxies against Israel decided to give refuge to Paleatinian militants. But that backfired and resulted in Black September (Jordan Civil War) where Palestinian militants killed Jordanian PM and created unrest in Jordan. Eventually Jordan booted these troublemakers and Palestinian militants relocated to Lebanon (which already had sizeable Palestinian refugees). Again it resulted in (Lebanese) Civil War.
Moral of the story: Don't consider Palestinian as some innocent people who are being oppressed by devilish Israel. Palestinians have their own devilish intent but lacked resources to realise it. But time and again Palestinians have shown they have devilish intent and if provided with resources can realise it too.
Here are few examples of "innocent" activities carried by Palestinians:
1. Fidayeen attacks on Israeli civilians while West Bank Palestinians were citizens of Jordan.
2. No claim on Palestinian land as per first charter of PLO in 1964 but wanted end of existence of Israel, indirectly meaning wipe Israel out of map and subsume the Palestinian land into Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt and no need of separate Palestine.
2. Black September (Jordan Civil War).
3. Lebanese Civil War.
4. Munich Massacre.
5. Air France hi-jack.
6. Italian Cruise ship hi-jack.
7. Oct 7 massacre.
Now some people will try to segregate Hamas and other militants from Palestinians; but unfortunately the hatred indoctrinated on both sides means Hamas and Palestine are two sides of same coin and can't be separated.
I agree with much of it, but what I don't like is this narrative that levels up the oppression, as if both people (Palestinians and Israelis) were being mistreated equally. We all know that is not the case, and an honest debater should leave that clear from the start.
When you want to bring a positive message, and to start a political argument, you shouldn't bring up facts about who is more oppressed, even though it feels urgent and purly unjust to ignore that theres a side who constantly attacks the Israelis, non stop for almost 80 years, with no any intention for peace, while as soon as Israelis try to defend themselves the UN and all of that shit would be quick to condem, accuse, and oppress any attempt of them defending themselves, which is not a lot to ask.
The only reason there's an inequality is because one side is significantly more talented, intelligent, skilled, funded, trained, educated, and enlightened.
It's only one sided because one of these groups of people built their entire culture around scholarship while the other built it's entire culture around martyrdom.
If the shoe were on the other foot, if you flipped a magic switch that had them change sides... do you think for a second they'd be more gentle? Or do you think they'd be far, far, FAR more oppressive?
He's an Israel apologist
His argument doesn't appear to be in good faith.
If you're supporting continued Israeli settlements and occupation in Gaza and West Bank, then you aren't giving Palestinians a path to a better life or dignity in their own homeland.
Also, Germany and Japan changed after WW2 because they were built up economically with the help of the US. US and Israel have not done anything of the sort in Palestinian lands, in fact one could easily make an argument that US and Israel have worked to do the opposite.
Yes but the Palestinians will never, ever accept a Jewish state. Not for centuries.
Yes, I'm so tired of this victimhood, which has been used as a cover for genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
@@user-bl1ji7io6u All sides can play the history game, it's a nonsense distraction. What matters is the here and now.
He doesn't supports settlements, but go ahead and act as an agent of division and disinformation. He didn't say Germany resolved by magic, he indicated "the right decisions" needed to be made. In fact, he literally called for the rebuilding of Gaza in this clip. So sick of people like you lying endlessly to create division.
Muslims mostly like to blame others for their misery!!! When it comes to solution and taking action for change then their arguments fall apart and their true faces become obvious!!!
Just look at Iran Afghanistan Syria Libya Sudan Yemen Lebanon Iraq.... Turkey.
Turkey alone continuously bombs Kurdish people much like Iran!!!
I'm an Iranian national and I stand with people and state of Israel ❤️🌷🌺🌹❤️
We understand the evils of Islam!!!
Hamas and Hezbollah must be eradicated!!!!
من ایرانیم و در کنار مردم و دولت اسراییل هستم 🌺ما از نیات شیطانی اسلام آگاهیم!!! حماس و حزبالله باید نابود شوند!!!
Thank you very much, Yuval Noah Harari, for all that you have said about pain, suffering, victimhood, war, etc., etc. It ALL NEEDS to be SAID, and said OFTEN, and said FORCEFULLY !!! However, it ALSO NEEDS TO BE CAREFULLY CONSIDERED, THOUGHT ABOUT, and PRACTISED !!! Great thoughts, great truths DIE if they are NOT PRACTICED !!!
I have respect for Harari who is an interesting thinker, but I don't understand how you can talk about victimhood in an abstract, cultural sense, when there are tens of thousands of actual victims in brutal massacres and human rights abuses. Though this man is very intelligent, he seems to have a selective blindness to the extreme Israeli nationalism that is attempting to cleanse the country of its Palestinian population. In practical terms, this is an emergency, and in theoretical terms it is one population dehumanizing another.
How do you see Israel ethnic cleaning.? Palestinian populations have grown exponentially the past 25 years. Please explain your position other than repeating what you hear from people saying words without understanding and fact checking.
@@tr3derThat's hilarious that you accuse me of plagiarism when I have explained my own views on such particular terms - how could these be taken from anywhere else? I would expand on my meaning, but by your limited command of English I expect that would be a waste of time. I suggest in future you look at the number of people being killed and think less about the nationality/religion of the victims
@@robertosullivan7638 I think this comment is intended for someone else
@@tr3der Like someone with a conscience? Or someone who doesn't connect population growth with ethnic cleansing, ie. someone who isn't morally devoid?
Victims of massacres or victims of being used as human shields and bad choices of governance
At the end of the war of 1948, there were 156,000 Arabs in Israel and zero Jews in the West Bank and Gaza. The population of Jews in Arab countries from 1948-72 went down by 95% while the population of Arabs in what was once the British mandate probably doubled. I wonder who is responsible for ethnic cleansing.
Except that the Palestinians are victims of the state of Israel. He suggests personal and community power that Israel denies Palestinians.
My abusive parents were victims apparently. Everything they did to me was my fault. And I was under ten.
I felt he is a mild version of Netanyahu... throwing Saudi Arabia in the middle and ignoringthe Palestinians
LOL! NO , no he's not . HE SAID that a Peace agreement between Saudi Arabia and Israel SHOULD INCLUDE the Palestinians . You didn't listen. So you must be Trolling ...
Why would you do anything other than ignore them? They cannot be negotiated with. There is no reason to talk to them.
1 state 2 states whatever but the palestinians to be recognized as citizens ! And rebuilding Gaza for PALESTINIANS not for the americans or canadians jews !
And no, presenting others atrocities it doesn't take the blame for the present atrocity and it is not less important !
👍🎩
Harari and his stories. Enough already.
I simply do not understand why people feel Hararis message is somehow radical. He is talking sence here thriugh a very broad scope. Maybe it will not help the Palestinians right now but he is still making sence. He is not a crisis worker or a politician so he has the right to think about these things. His occupation is to think.
+
Interesting you used the word occupation.
I love watching G Zero Media and drinking G Zero Glacier Freeze. Thanks Ian!
I didn’t know about the Rwandan genocide, where were the riots and protests for them? 😔 So sad.
Can one feel patriotism for a country made up of a variety of very different cultures?
Is the population of the United States a “unique group of people “?
Does the average American “love and care about “ all classes and cultures that comprise the country?
👍🎩
When Americans get out into the rest of the world, they can definitely see their unique traits which unite the various heritages that comprise the US.
Harari has a brilliant mind, and I think he's both compassionate and reasonable and has always something interesting to say, but it's a pity that he uses Rwanda as an example. I think he doesn't know the country and should inform himself better. First of all, consider that Kagame, Rwanda's dictator, is probably laughing at Putin's meager 87% of the vote in the elections. If Harari mentions the genocide, he should also not forget that Rwanda took part in two wars after the genocide, were there were at least five times as many deaths. The Congo wars are the bloodiest wars in Africa's recent history, they are also known as the Africa's World War.
In the aftermath Rwanda established a repressive dictatorship in which any dissent would be crushed mercilessly. Little has changed. And by the way, Harari should also note that he would probably get into big trouble if he was in Rwanda and says what he says in this interview, as any mentioning of hutus and tutsis in public is dangerous and generally not a good idea.
gosh. Thank you for this perspective.
Don't agree. He is neither brilliant nor compassionate. I read his books.
For the worst storm to pass, Israel needs to IMMEDIATELY STOP its GENOCIDE, it is currently committing in Gaza as we speak.
It is pretty presumptuous of Mr Harari to sit on stage, and show us how "things are terrible now, but things will be better".
I am dissapointed. Honestly, I thought he would have a better stance on this, especially because he is a big opponent on Netanyahu. If he can not see what his own people are doing right now, in the name of victims of October 7th, he might as well be blind.
I hope from the bottom of my heart you are right but thinking about my experiences I have a different point of view. I hope I am wrong but until now, the seventh of October proved me right. And yes I am not as eloquent and smart as you are. Moreover it is difficult to explain the content and source of my words… wishing you the best. ❣️
Victimhood is what led to the creation of Israel, and the Europeans played well into that narrative.
Great!
I don't think it makes sense to compare this situation with Rwanda. People killing with knifes is pretty different from attacking from the sky with a huge military advantage. It seems much more cowardly to me.
I am fascinated by how all the moral responsibility for the dead children in Gaza is placed on Israel. After the barbaric terrorist attack on 7 October, Hamas chose to hide in and under its own civilian population, and continues to attack with its own families as shields. Hamas has chosen the battlefield on which this madness unfolds, and are at least complicit.
My intention is in no way to downplay the Palestinian suffering and the injustices committed against them. The right-wing Israeli government is to the highest degree guilty of killing innocent children. But Yuval's point about victim mentality has to go both ways.
One has to stop this naive narrative. The reality hasn't sent a clear enough message for our historian.
4:07 great
Still it is a difference when Israelis call themselves "victim" or when Palestinians do so, simply because of the amount of crimes they have had to experience and have done themselves.
The palestinians attack and then act as victims thats the whole story again and again
At the formation of (Trans)Jordan, 50% population was already Palestinian.
Then Jordan annexed West Bank in 1950 and the number rose to ~75%. Entire West Bank was given Jordanian citizenship.
Then another demographic change happened in 1967 when Israel took control over West Bank. The number reduced but then Jordan which was already using Palestinian Fidayeens (suicide bombers) as proxies against Israel decided to give refuge to Paleatinian militants. But that backfired and resulted in Black September (Jordan Civil War) where Palestinian militants killed Jordanian PM and created unrest in Jordan. Eventually Jordan booted these troublemakers and Palestinian militants relocated to Lebanon (which already had sizeable Palestinian refugees). Again it resulted in (Lebanese) Civil War.
Moral of the story: Don't consider Palestinian as some innocent people who are being oppressed by devilish Israel. Palestinians have their own devilish intent but lacked resources to realise it. But time and again Palestinians have shown they have devilish intent and if provided with resources can realise it too.
Here are few examples of "innocent" activities carried by Palestinians:
1. Fidayeen attacks on Israeli civilians while West Bank Palestinians were citizens of Jordan.
2. No claim on Palestinian land as per first charter of PLO in 1964 but wanted end of existence of Israel, indirectly meaning wipe Israel out of map and subsume the Palestinian land into Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt and no need of separate Palestine.
2. Black September (Jordan Civil War).
3. Lebanese Civil War.
4. Munich Massacre.
5. Air France hi-jack.
6. Italian Cruise ship hi-jack.
7. Oct 7 massacre.
Now some people will try to segregate Hamas and other militants from Palestinians; but unfortunately the hatred indoctrinated on both sides means Hamas and Palestine are two sides of same coin and can't be separated.
WEF puppet
I Like Harari but come on they slaughtered 13.000 children, 13.000 thousand. Israel Shows such cruelty i really cant Imagine how they can See themselves as victims
Palestinians attack and then act as victims thats the whole story again and again.
At the formation of (Trans)Jordan, 50% population was already Palestinian.
Then Jordan annexed West Bank in 1950 and the number rose to ~75%. Entire West Bank was given Jordanian citizenship.
Then another demographic change happened in 1967 when Israel took control over West Bank. The number reduced but then Jordan which was already using Palestinian Fidayeens (suicide bombers) as proxies against Israel decided to give refuge to Paleatinian militants. But that backfired and resulted in Black September (Jordan Civil War) where Palestinian militants killed Jordanian PM and created unrest in Jordan. Eventually Jordan booted these troublemakers and Palestinian militants relocated to Lebanon (which already had sizeable Palestinian refugees). Again it resulted in (Lebanese) Civil War.
Moral of the story: Don't consider Palestinian as some innocent people who are being oppressed by devilish Israel. Palestinians have their own devilish intent but lacked resources to realise it. But time and again Palestinians have shown they have devilish intent and if provided with resources can realise it too.
Here are few examples of "innocent" activities carried by Palestinians:
1. Fidayeen attacks on Israeli civilians while West Bank Palestinians were citizens of Jordan.
2. No claim on Palestinian land as per first charter of PLO in 1964 but wanted end of existence of Israel, indirectly meaning wipe Israel out of map and subsume the Palestinian land into Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt and no need of separate Palestine.
2. Black September (Jordan Civil War).
3. Lebanese Civil War.
4. Munich Massacre.
5. Air France hi-jack.
6. Italian Cruise ship hi-jack.
7. Oct 7 massacre.
Now some people will try to segregate Hamas and other militants from Palestinians; but unfortunately the hatred indoctrinated on both sides means Hamas and Palestine are two sides of same coin and can't be separated.
Some samples from last 20 years:
Nigeria vs Boko Haram 350,000 dead
Sudan vs JEM/Darfur 300,000 dead
Yemen vs Houthis 233,000 dead
Pakistan vs Islamists 50,000 dead
Syria's civil war 400,000 dead
South Sudan's civil war 400,000 dead
Ethiopia and Eritrea vs Tigray 600,000 dead
Do you remember protests for all these dead?
Me, neither.
It is not about people or land in Gaza.
People talking about the two state solution should remember how many times Palestinians have rejected it in the past. Not a good idea to force solutions on people who don't want it.
Isreal badly needs fresh critical thinkers like yuval
Well, Palestine has zero of them so…..
In Israel at least half of the population thinks like him, but I never heard anything even close from our cousins.
@@sergeedelstein3463Truth truth truth. At least Jews try to seek the truth - 'the next world on earth.' To me that is Science. We knew that there was more than myth and idolatry. Einstein is our messiah, not Jesus, and likewise he made mistakes as all messiahs do!
@@user-bl1ji7io6uWell Catholicism is very particular and controlling, insisting religion cannot be individual. Translation forbidden so you have to rely on an intellectual elite for connection to God and thus Power. Still, even 2000+ years into this Christianity / Islam experiment, it's about controlling knowledge, because turns out, knowledge really does equal power.
But he has a decision to make right now Israel vision or humanity vision
Keep this guy away from your children!
I think his analysis and comparisons are very shallow and hardly useful for what's happening in the real world. For example, countries in the 'global south', which to a large extend have been real victims of colonial exploitation, are more and more going their own way (and maybe even standing up) against developed countries/their former colonizers, i.e. they do take responsibility ... but the latter group of countries does not like that.
Gross!
Very insightful from a human perspective. It is difficult to change narratives that are so deeply ingrained in humanity.
He sure looks like a real fraud ... 😂
Yuval should clearly define that Israel is committing a genocide. Sure he can say both sides approach from victims view. But he should say even if there are some victim elements with the Jewish claim. In fact 99.9 percent is Israelis brutally depriving Palestinians of all human rights.
It seems that Harari has adopted the victimhood story of the Israeli ethno-state. Now he's using it to defend genocide. Absolutely disgusting.
📍5:04
Deuteronomy 23:17 KJV - There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Wel isreal is the best player of victimhood.
Harari is hyped as a great thinker and visionary. Over time, I have come to believe that he is highly overrated and an extremist pandering to a targeted audience of self-proclaimed intellectuals and pseudo-intelligentsia.
well , nobody's perfect 😉, maybe we can still learn something from him? I am sort of desperate right now for any kind of sense or wisdom 🙄🙄🙄!!
Only smart people can identify smart people
Hypocrite!
🇺🇦❤️🇮🇱🙏
Yuval, I love you!
GenocideJoe :(
Harari is not discerning anymore
This man is intellectually dishonest and morally bankrupt.
😈😈
True about the other cultures being able to forgive and live as neighbors again, inc vietnam, n and s ireland, indigenous americans, balkans, and everywhere else, etcetcet. cHowever, historically, the Palestinians rejected several peace deals, violated ceasefires and committed terrorist acts repeatedly, and for whatever reason, their grudges appear almost ingrained. Would love to hear his solution to that.
You are very optimistic. About Hutu and Tutsi, I am really no expert, but it seems as if that conflict is flaring up again right now this time not in Ruanda but in neighbouring Congo. And you can have no idea just how much I hate to say this, but I never ever imagined that I would see anti-Semitism flare up again in Germany as it has since Oct 7th. Disguised as concern over the plight of Palestinians, of course. Even more worrisome that it seems to be even worse in other Western countries.
fake man
Look up the history of Palestinian ppl, no history. It started after Israel was created
There were also no blacks and no South Africans in South Africa before whites came. Yet, black South Africans still were oppressed. This is a weird argument
It's not an argument. It's a version of the 75 year old meme: "a land without people for a people without a land". It's nonsense, of course. The territory of Palestine had an Arab population that greatly dwarfed the Jewish population at the beginning of the 20th century. And it was significantly larger than the Jewish population right up to 1948, even though the UN granted them a smaller portion of the territory than it granted the Zionists. But why let facts get in the way of saying what you need to believe to stop you having to think for yourself? @@jonathanludd