@@qtherage7536 You’ve definitely played more than me lol but I think with the Blighted Reach expansion it’s as much of a 4X as the base game of Twilight Imperium 4 is.
@ yeah I’ve played the campaign a few times. I love arcs I just don’t know if I classify it as a 4x. Although i guess depending on the faction it could technically be one. I find arcs to be such a unique game the campaign is incredible
You mostly compare it to TI, but then *Eclipse enters the chat*. I believe it's really a hard area they're exploring here with this design, because how many different space 4x can an average player have. I'd like to see detailed comparison between the games.
Yep, eclipse is definitely a little bit less known, and I played it less, so making less of the comparison in my head. I really like this game's approach to modifying ships over Eclipse, and how the combat is handled. -Ashton
@@Shelfside Hmm, interesting. As it seems Eclipse 2nd went much further into ship designs in comparison to what I gathered and it was 'kind of a gamble how a combat would turn out'. I maybe paraphrasing a bit, but I'm pretty sure you said something along those lines about Eclipse 2nd in your review as a positive and how it kept everybody around the table interested on how the battle would turn out. (Obviously more experience with other games or in the long run etc might change ones mind. Not trying to start an argument here, I just want to try and find 'my perfect 4x game'. 🤓 I'd really like a 'nice' 4x game. It's obvious Twilight Imperium (4?) is considered the best in the genre, but also doesn't play very well below 4 players and takes tons of time. And thus is rather hard to table. Space Empire 4x I'd really like (I think), even though it's only cardboard. It's also pretty much always out of print (or at least not in stores). Also mosty because I'd really like a solo and/or coop variant, which Orion seems to have too, to keep up with the rules and being able to enjoy a game even without anyone in my gamegroup being interested. EVE Online .... or EVE: War for New Eden as the boardgame is actually called, seems to be more driven about the combat than anything else. Sadly not a lot of people (that are into 4x) seem to have made comparisons/reviews of it, so it's a bit hard to compare to someone who hasn't have any 4x experience in boardgames (but has limited shelf space). I've seen some people mentioning Arcs, but seems a bit too abstract to me. I think the ships-on-a-stick from Orion look really nice, especially with the see-through footing, the blackones are kinda ruining the board/immersion imho. But since 6 players is max anyway, it feels kinda nonsense to have like 13 different entire ship collections (15-16 maybe even through stretch goals and haven't even included the pirates in that), although the C'thulhu race seem worthy of an entire new ship range. I like miniatures, but I only have a set space to put boardgames in. . I'm currently interested in Cloudspire. I quite like the 'mini's' and they really uplift/help the game, but all of those almost take in more space than the actual game+expansions and I've already seen some 'fix-designs' to 3D print which still 'marks towers' as such, but don't really near as much take up so much space. With Orion I'd be MORE than fine with 6 different mini's for the races, extra the C'thulhu one (imho needs Antarans like coop rules...if any) and obviously (?) the Antarans, as they are just too unique. Lots of people claiming one needs Antarans expansion for solo/coop, yet update (and unlocks) claim 'bot' is pretty much single 6-8 card automata. . Oh well, I just hope Orion is as I think it is for me and has something akin to Eclipse 2nd for storing solution. Organization of games is like 35% of the reason one doesn't want to start certain games!! . Team 'Setup should be only 2nd to index...followed by quick explanation of the turn/round' etc. It's weird people who can think of complex games have a hard time actually explaining it....
Would love to see your personal ranking of TI4, TI3, Civilization 2010, Eclipse 2, Master of Orion, Clash of Cultures, Star Trek Ascendancy and Space 4X!
Great Review! I am curious: have you played a 4X called "Fractal Beyond the Void"? It was a kickstarter 2 years ago and not sure what people think about it!
The thirty minute rule review stated that when you attack, you don’t move until after you win. Your review shows movement before attacking. Which is it?
How do you guys get so much out of so few gameplays? You came up with such detailed aspects of mechanics that never appear in any other reviews. For this game could the instant win mechanics be withheld until turns 4 or 5?
Cheers! 3 game plays is quite a bit of time spent, especially with our group of 2-3 players who are quite experienced in epic games. The instant win mechanics typically get withheld until round 3+ because orion is just too hard to take without a strong army, and typically people aren't foolhardy to leave their base vulnerable to attack. -Ashton
Mmmmm. I remember the tactical ship combat in MoO2. I liked trying to use tractor beams, bring an enemy shields down on that side and board them to capture the ship. But... The combat took forever and the computer AI option would often cause unnecessary losses.
I still have Master of Orion II on my PC, as a matter of fact I played it only some few days ago! I was not a fan of the sequels MoO 3 and WG version (the latest PD version), hence I am not so sure about this board game by WG... Guess I have to wait and see more reviews on the final game (not this beta one).
It's definitely more on the aggressive side - turtling is heavily discouraged and there's a decent amount of early wars. Of course, this doesn't mean that everyone has to play like an expansionist. You can still win games while only sitting on 1-2 planets for most of the game.
It's extremely easy to attack people. Although, the pirates do slow down initial p2p aggression so the game doesn't completely collapse early. Though at some point late game it could be a cold war since everyone is so interconnected, yet is saving actions to prioritize exploration/economy/etc -Ashton
How punishing is losing? The biggest downside to eclipse is that losing combat is brutal, replacement is hard, battles often one sided. Can be rough if you lose your fleet early@@Shelfside
@@plasmapanasonic4741 Not too bad in our experience, although its much different playing this 3P versus my eclipse 6P. If someone gets too behind militarily in MoO, someone can just take their base which spirals the game to a showdown for the rest to cover for that guy, or the game just ends. -Ashton
Those miniatures remind me of StarCraft: The Board Game, including how fragile the stands are. I’d love to play 4X games but we only often play at 2 players..
This game also has solo/coop modes, and includes automas. The core game includes 2 automas so you'd be able to play a 4 player game with your friend :) The stands are made with HIPS (High Impact Polystyrene) so they shouldn't break easily.
Good remarks. Looks like balancing is yet to be perfected. Its annoying when some missions or random victory points is too important. Dune Imperium does this in a good way like you say. The buildings should perhaps be in different colors. Trading with the diplomats should always give some benefit. It's important that you don't feel like you rather not trade in order to not give your opponents to much gain or risk a spy. I think Advanced civ (today's mega empires) is a great example were the trading system really lifts the rest of the game.
Definitely agree that it's a great review with valid critiques! The team at Archon are definitely taking the feedback very seriously :) Trading with diplomats almost always give a benefit - the most effective way to do this is to exchange a diplomat for a diplomat as it keeps the cycle going. At the beginning of the game it's not really even worth going for spies, as it makes you less trustworthy in the eyes of other players, and the effects of spies aren't too strong at just the first level. Also, it's relatively easy to track who has searched for new diplomats and who is still just using their base diplomats. In every game of Orion I've played so far, I have never felt like I don't want to exchange diplomats because I'm giving something to another player - I'm trading because I want something THEY have. Otherwise, the diplomats are just sitting in my hand and not doing anything, and if everyone else is trading, it puts me really behind. Kind of like real life!
This game is too late, I already have TI4, Eclipse, and Voidfall, and none of these even hit the table as often as they should. So... yeah. Sorry but there's no room for this one in my collection.
The 1990's Microprose video game was based on a hex and counter board game in 1974 called Stellar Conquest, possibly the first space themed 4x game. (edit) D'oh, you beat me to it 30:42 , but it wasn't AH was not the original publisher, that would be a company called Metagaming, A.H. would acquire it in 1984 (after turning their nose up to it and it's designer in 1973)
I think the minis maybe a little to big. I feel like the whole review I could not see what was going on on the board and we where looking top down not sitting. Myab that is why in the videos of playing they where always standing.
There are a lot of missed opportunities with this game. Trading like settlers of catan is horrible mechanic. Trading should jut let you choose resources based on your agreements. Everyone gets what they want. Diplomats should go into a deck where the player shuffles and draws. Emulates spies infiltrating or failing to.
Eh, games get delayed, nothing from them suggests the game won't be made and they've kept up communication the whole time, but yeah, the delays are pretty massive, I've had many games launch and deliver since then.
After HoMM, I don't trust Archon making a polished game and that one was a much simpler game. There are also too many random things going on for a strategy game: action cards, dice combat, tile exploration. A streak of bad luck and I'll just waste 5h looking out of the window without any chance to catch up. Voidfall and TI4 are doing all of these much better.
I recommend actually trying the TTS version. While some randomness is present in the game, it's nowhere near close to the deciding factor in a game. When I started playing this game I had the exact same mentality but was proven wrong multiple times just by trying to actually win, even when I knew I was in a terrible position. The final round is the most important, and it's where the biggest point swings can happen, especially if you've been preparing for it the entire game.
@@Elitistb616 I . . . I . . . did . . . did you? Does it not strike you as strange providing a review for a prototype, regardless of the disclaimer that the score is tentative and then ending the video with the idea that this game could possibly end up in his top 10 games of all time? May I ask you an honest question: Why do you think content creators create early content for crappy Kickstarter projects? It's fine to do paid previews . . . just don't call the damn thing a review. There is a reason why many countries are starting to mandate that content creators provide information within the description of the video detailing if the product is a paid preview or if the product was provided to them for free for the purpose of review. That information is not available in the description . . .
@ he said it’s sponsored, so I imagine so. And he also said that at the beginning. So I guess it’s up to you whether you believe his following thoughts, which, after years of watching the channel, I do. In fact, his negatives throughout the video (not just in the cons section but later as well), has made me rethink whether I am going to back the project or not (I’m a big MoO fan so was initially excited, but the negatives he points out give me pause as to whether they can fix these issues before the game comes out).
Yeah that heroes 3 rulebook…. My god! When the fans have to do a rulebook for you, you’ve fucked up! I got that game because I loved the game as a child and while I enjoy it, the rulebook is a complete mess that I cut out pages and reorganized them or took pages out of multiple books to make a new book just so I can reference it easier And honestly if the game wasn’t heroes it would not of been near as successful. I enjoy it enough because it’s true to the ip but as a actual board game it’s very average
@@qtherage7536 Agree with the rulebook, but the game regardless is good, and i'm very glad i backed it. Backed the Core version first time, and liked it so much i went all in shaded version the second time round!
I actually prefer a faster cadence. I've lost most of my patience for slow talkers over the years. I guess the internet has ruined me. Maybe having a little more variety in tone/enthusiasm would make it a little easier to follow, though. Appreciate their reviews as always regardless!
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
I’d love to see a video of you comparing all the modern 4x games. Like an Arcs, Eclipse, TI4 Orion showdown!
ahahaha you're killing me!!! -Ashton
Is Arcs a 4x? I’ve played it a dozen times and it has no semblance of a 4x to me
@@qtherage7536 You’ve definitely played more than me lol but I think with the Blighted Reach expansion it’s as much of a 4X as the base game of Twilight Imperium 4 is.
@ yeah I’ve played the campaign a few times. I love arcs I just don’t know if I classify it as a 4x. Although i guess depending on the faction it could technically be one.
I find arcs to be such a unique game the campaign is incredible
Maybe not an in depth comparison.
Love to see Alexander on there :)
I really liked Master of Orion in 1993 💙
The creators of the original Master of Orion game have played our board game as well and they love it ;)
Wow! Alexander gives a Stellar Conquest reference. Impressive.
Another excellent review.
Thanks for the video!
You mostly compare it to TI, but then *Eclipse enters the chat*. I believe it's really a hard area they're exploring here with this design, because how many different space 4x can an average player have. I'd like to see detailed comparison between the games.
Yep, eclipse is definitely a little bit less known, and I played it less, so making less of the comparison in my head. I really like this game's approach to modifying ships over Eclipse, and how the combat is handled. -Ashton
@@Shelfside
Hmm, interesting. As it seems Eclipse 2nd went much further into ship designs in comparison to what I gathered and it was 'kind of a gamble how a combat would turn out'. I maybe paraphrasing a bit, but I'm pretty sure you said something along those lines about Eclipse 2nd in your review as a positive and how it kept everybody around the table interested on how the battle would turn out. (Obviously more experience with other games or in the long run etc might change ones mind. Not trying to start an argument here, I just want to try and find 'my perfect 4x game'. 🤓
I'd really like a 'nice' 4x game. It's obvious Twilight Imperium (4?) is considered the best in the genre, but also doesn't play very well below 4 players and takes tons of time. And thus is rather hard to table.
Space Empire 4x I'd really like (I think), even though it's only cardboard. It's also pretty much always out of print (or at least not in stores). Also mosty because I'd really like a solo and/or coop variant, which Orion seems to have too, to keep up with the rules and being able to enjoy a game even without anyone in my gamegroup being interested.
EVE Online .... or EVE: War for New Eden as the boardgame is actually called, seems to be more driven about the combat than anything else. Sadly not a lot of people (that are into 4x) seem to have made comparisons/reviews of it, so it's a bit hard to compare to someone who hasn't have any 4x experience in boardgames (but has limited shelf space).
I've seen some people mentioning Arcs, but seems a bit too abstract to me. I think the ships-on-a-stick from Orion look really nice, especially with the see-through footing, the blackones are kinda ruining the board/immersion imho. But since 6 players is max anyway, it feels kinda nonsense to have like 13 different entire ship collections (15-16 maybe even through stretch goals and haven't even included the pirates in that), although the C'thulhu race seem worthy of an entire new ship range. I like miniatures, but I only have a set space to put boardgames in.
.
I'm currently interested in Cloudspire. I quite like the 'mini's' and they really uplift/help the game, but all of those almost take in more space than the actual game+expansions and I've already seen some 'fix-designs' to 3D print which still 'marks towers' as such, but don't really near as much take up so much space.
With Orion I'd be MORE than fine with 6 different mini's for the races, extra the C'thulhu one (imho needs Antarans like coop rules...if any) and obviously (?) the Antarans, as they are just too unique. Lots of people claiming one needs Antarans expansion for solo/coop, yet update (and unlocks) claim 'bot' is pretty much single 6-8 card automata.
.
Oh well, I just hope Orion is as I think it is for me and has something akin to Eclipse 2nd for storing solution. Organization of games is like 35% of the reason one doesn't want to start certain games!!
.
Team 'Setup should be only 2nd to index...followed by quick explanation of the turn/round' etc. It's weird people who can think of complex games have a hard time actually explaining it....
Would love to see your personal ranking of TI4, TI3, Civilization 2010, Eclipse 2, Master of Orion, Clash of Cultures, Star Trek Ascendancy and Space 4X!
I love space-themed 4x games❤ I hate how hard it is to get a group to play them😢
Great Review! I am curious: have you played a 4X called "Fractal Beyond the Void"? It was a kickstarter 2 years ago and not sure what people think about it!
They also have buildings called udp and tcp! Bunch of IT nerds!
"Master of Orion is a game I never played"
You need to change this.
Are you guys planning on doing a review on Arcs? I'd be surprised if Daniel had nothing to say about it
The thirty minute rule review stated that when you attack, you don’t move until after you win. Your review shows movement before attacking. Which is it?
When performing the attack action, you first declare that you're attacking and only move into the system if you've cleared all of the enemy ships.
How does this compare to Andromedas edge?
After this good review I would totally be hyped by a review of ARCS.
Is it coming? :-) :-)
ha ha ha, hopefully one day! -Ashton
What is the game shown at 0:24 in the video (between Space Empires 4x and Twillight Imperium 4)?
galactic era! We've done a full review on it as well -Ashton
Smaller tokens will help they don't need to be that size imo
How do you guys get so much out of so few gameplays? You came up with such detailed aspects of mechanics that never appear in any other reviews. For this game could the instant win mechanics be withheld until turns 4 or 5?
Cheers! 3 game plays is quite a bit of time spent, especially with our group of 2-3 players who are quite experienced in epic games. The instant win mechanics typically get withheld until round 3+ because orion is just too hard to take without a strong army, and typically people aren't foolhardy to leave their base vulnerable to attack. -Ashton
What is the game that's appears at 0:23
galactic era! -Ashton
Mmmmm. I remember the tactical ship combat in MoO2. I liked trying to use tractor beams, bring an enemy shields down on that side and board them to capture the ship. But... The combat took forever and the computer AI option would often cause unnecessary losses.
I still have Master of Orion II on my PC, as a matter of fact I played it only some few days ago!
I was not a fan of the sequels MoO 3 and WG version (the latest PD version), hence I am not so sure about this board game by WG...
Guess I have to wait and see more reviews on the final game (not this beta one).
how is the conflict and combat in this game? It is more of a cold war like TI4? or easy to attack others? or a happy medium like eclipse?
It's definitely more on the aggressive side - turtling is heavily discouraged and there's a decent amount of early wars. Of course, this doesn't mean that everyone has to play like an expansionist. You can still win games while only sitting on 1-2 planets for most of the game.
It's extremely easy to attack people. Although, the pirates do slow down initial p2p aggression so the game doesn't completely collapse early. Though at some point late game it could be a cold war since everyone is so interconnected, yet is saving actions to prioritize exploration/economy/etc -Ashton
How punishing is losing? The biggest downside to eclipse is that losing combat is brutal, replacement is hard, battles often one sided. Can be rough if you lose your fleet early@@Shelfside
@@plasmapanasonic4741 Not too bad in our experience, although its much different playing this 3P versus my eclipse 6P. If someone gets too behind militarily in MoO, someone can just take their base which spirals the game to a showdown for the rest to cover for that guy, or the game just ends. -Ashton
Those miniatures remind me of StarCraft: The Board Game, including how fragile the stands are.
I’d love to play 4X games but we only often play at 2 players..
This game also has solo/coop modes, and includes automas. The core game includes 2 automas so you'd be able to play a 4 player game with your friend :)
The stands are made with HIPS (High Impact Polystyrene) so they shouldn't break easily.
Good remarks. Looks like balancing is yet to be perfected. Its annoying when some missions or random victory points is too important. Dune Imperium does this in a good way like you say. The buildings should perhaps be in different colors. Trading with the diplomats should always give some benefit. It's important that you don't feel like you rather not trade in order to not give your opponents to much gain or risk a spy. I think Advanced civ (today's mega empires) is a great example were the trading system really lifts the rest of the game.
Definitely agree that it's a great review with valid critiques! The team at Archon are definitely taking the feedback very seriously :)
Trading with diplomats almost always give a benefit - the most effective way to do this is to exchange a diplomat for a diplomat as it keeps the cycle going. At the beginning of the game it's not really even worth going for spies, as it makes you less trustworthy in the eyes of other players, and the effects of spies aren't too strong at just the first level. Also, it's relatively easy to track who has searched for new diplomats and who is still just using their base diplomats. In every game of Orion I've played so far, I have never felt like I don't want to exchange diplomats because I'm giving something to another player - I'm trading because I want something THEY have. Otherwise, the diplomats are just sitting in my hand and not doing anything, and if everyone else is trading, it puts me really behind. Kind of like real life!
This game is too late, I already have TI4, Eclipse, and Voidfall, and none of these even hit the table as often as they should. So... yeah. Sorry but there's no room for this one in my collection.
The 1990's Microprose video game was based on a hex and counter board game in 1974 called Stellar Conquest, possibly the first space themed 4x game.
(edit) D'oh, you beat me to it 30:42 , but it wasn't AH was not the original publisher, that would be a company called Metagaming, A.H. would acquire it in 1984 (after turning their nose up to it and it's designer in 1973)
Metagaming -- where Steve Jackson got his start. I loved those games!
What's your opinion of EVE: War for New Eden, compared to Master of Orion?
I think the minis maybe a little to big. I feel like the whole review I could not see what was going on on the board and we where looking top down not sitting. Myab that is why in the videos of playing they where always standing.
I like 4x but how does this play with 2 players. Most of the time that’s how I play. Occasionally three players.
This looks good but man what I would do for this game to be an "Endless Space" game...
Have they found any RUclipsr who actually played the video game?!?
I don't understand how it can be a 7 out of 10 tentative score but then possibly reach your top 10 games of all time
Maybe because you have to spent a lot of time on the game to actually like it
@arepasxo fair enough I guess you could argue either way
haha, there's the difference between tentative and personal score! Still undecided on top 10 games as we haven't tried 4P (and all the techs) -Ashton
He was paid.
@@bmrigsso , you would want to be if you laid out a video that I’m sure took 10-15 hrs to do . Should he work for free ?
As Eclipse fan, this looks very medicore
Combat sucks in eclipse though. That's My biggest gripe with it.
Visually maybe but the potential gameplay/interaction to this looks MUCH better.
There are a lot of missed opportunities with this game. Trading like settlers of catan is horrible mechanic. Trading should jut let you choose resources based on your agreements. Everyone gets what they want.
Diplomats should go into a deck where the player shuffles and draws. Emulates spies infiltrating or failing to.
It will probably come out before Stellaris.
Never back anything from Academy Games, they are crooks.
Eh, games get delayed, nothing from them suggests the game won't be made and they've kept up communication the whole time, but yeah, the delays are pretty massive, I've had many games launch and deliver since then.
After HoMM, I don't trust Archon making a polished game and that one was a much simpler game.
There are also too many random things going on for a strategy game: action cards, dice combat, tile exploration.
A streak of bad luck and I'll just waste 5h looking out of the window without any chance to catch up.
Voidfall and TI4 are doing all of these much better.
I recommend actually trying the TTS version. While some randomness is present in the game, it's nowhere near close to the deciding factor in a game.
When I started playing this game I had the exact same mentality but was proven wrong multiple times just by trying to actually win, even when I knew I was in a terrible position. The final round is the most important, and it's where the biggest point swings can happen, especially if you've been preparing for it the entire game.
MoO 2&2 sucked months of my life.
Understood
sad to see you venture into sponsored galaxies. you were awesome
This feels like a commercial . . .
Did ... did you actually watch the video?
@@Elitistb616 I . . . I . . . did . . . did you? Does it not strike you as strange providing a review for a prototype, regardless of the disclaimer that the score is tentative and then ending the video with the idea that this game could possibly end up in his top 10 games of all time? May I ask you an honest question: Why do you think content creators create early content for crappy Kickstarter projects? It's fine to do paid previews . . . just don't call the damn thing a review. There is a reason why many countries are starting to mandate that content creators provide information within the description of the video detailing if the product is a paid preview or if the product was provided to them for free for the purpose of review.
That information is not available in the description . . .
Did you make it to the “Cons” section? A commercial would never feature that.
Okay. But did Shelfside receive money for this "review"? And how much in that case?
@ he said it’s sponsored, so I imagine so. And he also said that at the beginning. So I guess it’s up to you whether you believe his following thoughts, which, after years of watching the channel, I do. In fact, his negatives throughout the video (not just in the cons section but later as well), has made me rethink whether I am going to back the project or not (I’m a big MoO fan so was initially excited, but the negatives he points out give me pause as to whether they can fix these issues before the game comes out).
Any game by archon studios is a skip for me. When they ever succeed in a making a good rulebook, call.
The rulebook and a TTS version will be available before the campaign launches
Yeah that heroes 3 rulebook…. My god! When the fans have to do a rulebook for you, you’ve fucked up!
I got that game because I loved the game as a child and while I enjoy it, the rulebook is a complete mess that I cut out pages and reorganized them or took pages out of multiple books to make a new book just so I can reference it easier
And honestly if the game wasn’t heroes it would not of been near as successful. I enjoy it enough because it’s true to the ip but as a actual board game it’s very average
@@qtherage7536 Agree with the rulebook, but the game regardless is good, and i'm very glad i backed it. Backed the Core version first time, and liked it so much i went all in shaded version the second time round!
Wow you talk so fast... I just left.
I actually prefer a faster cadence. I've lost most of my patience for slow talkers over the years. I guess the internet has ruined me. Maybe having a little more variety in tone/enthusiasm would make it a little easier to follow, though. Appreciate their reviews as always regardless!
Adjust the playback speed. You can make it slower.