Andre is now a skid-steer cowboy. I wouldn't give y'all a hard time about that because I think it was awesome that it stood up like that and Andre didn't panic. If he would have panicked and overcorrected it one way or the other it would have most likely gone off the side of the trailer and been laying on its side.
I would love to see them drive that dance floor sized scissor lift onto a trailer. Or even which truck could pull or tow it. Lifts are 20 times heavier than they look. I got one stuck in gravel once and needed a WAY bigger crane than I thought to get it out. I was expecting a lull or truck to tow it out, nope, needed the big boy crane on a new HERTZIG construction job.
Another good reason to trailer skid loaders backwards is the windshield of the skid loader! They are expensive and rocks/road debris can break it very easily!
Seems like maybe a miss on their part but I bet the program to turn brake pedal into 7 pin brake output is well established. I would think at some point they could get that tuned for 1 pedal vs brake output. The ECM or some other body controller controls brake output voltage so their is no reason they couldn't figure it out.
Sounds like it might be a lawyer telling the software guys "We have to make braking with heavy trailer loads the 100% responsibility of the driver"... just guessing.
I think it's really for brake fade purposes, as people instinctively expect no brake fade from one-pedal, while the trailer's physical brakes are still working and fading
We really should use hybrids. They would definitely help with pollution for short driving stints but you have all the range of a gas vehicle. They are functional now without all the hassle of battery only and plug in only charging. People would accept that better then this current crop of crap of battery only thats a step backward in terms of convenience.
GM had the right idea with the hybrid pickups and SUVs in the mid/late 2000s, just wasn't executed well, but instead the just scrapped it instead of improving on it.
Great video. To use a sports analogy, too many people confuse power with endurance. “Range” is endurance. In football the defensive line is a powerful force to reckon with but anyone who has watched a defensive tackle try to run a fumble into the end zone will understand the difference.
@Big Paw Exactly. I can't wait to see battery energy density and charging times improve. When it does, I think that a lot of people will be willing to concede that EVs are the better way forward. The proof is in the pudding in this video. The torque and acceleration is vastly superior, and this is a ½ ton EV compared to a ¾ ton diesel. If we're being honest, the majority of folks are using their vehicles for short commutes (>60 miles)and puttering around town like 80% of the time, so for a lot of people...especially those who don't road trip much, an EV would be perfectly adequate for that general use case if available at the right price.
@@madguitarist EVs are a clear choice for one of the vehicles in a two vehicle household. It’s clearly better around town and you use the other vehicle on road trips.
How about a panic stop test between that 1/2 ton pickup VS an HD diesel pickup? That's where the problems arise, any truck can get the load moving, its the unplanned emergency stopping that'll get you.
@@chrishansel9324 It matters a lot if you are in the vehicle that the truck/trailer runs into because it can't stop because its overloaded. No, the RAM at that trailer weight isn't overloaded, but the F150 is.
Funny enough the brakes in that lightning are comparable to the 3/4 and to add to that, the regen also helps with braking so it's ver comparable and the lightning could actually be better.
@@user-st8ny6pi2d My Expedition was $150 to fill up. Most 3/4 tons are probably paying around the same, if not more. The Lightning is $13 at my current electricity rate. For fleets, maintenance and operations are a huge part of their costs. If the Lightning can get through a day, and charge overnight they're going to save a lot on fuel and there is no maintenance apart from tires. There's a reason it's sold out. People aren't stupid. They know what vehicle they need.
@@jghall00 1. People are stupid. They fall for propaganda all the time. 2. If it can get through a day (questionable) is not something anyone needs to ask when they purchase an ICE truck. 3. Thinking that $13 to recharge is going to remain $13 when the demand goes up is a fool’s hope 4. The reason they are sold out is because Ford can’t produce them. Rare metals that need to be strip mined are already scarce and will only get more so as the government pushes people toward EVs with artificially high fuel prices.
7:40 I mentioned this on the tug-of-war video, but it's worth repeating. You cannot compare torque values between these trucks. The only time it's appropriate to compare powertrain torque ratings for two vehicles is if they have identical geartrain reduction ratios. These vehicles do not. They are off more than your typical combustion vs. combustion match-up. All that matters at the end of the day is tire tractive force. This is the force that is pushing the vehicle forward at the contact patch. It’s dependent on wheel torque, tire radius, and coefficient of friction.
@@dundonrl If people started comparing wheel torque at a specific vehicle speed, that would absolutely be a fair comparison. But TFL isn't doing that. They are comparing powertrain (the input to the drivetrain) torque ratings. That doesn't work. And yes, as I broke down in a tug-of-war video comment, the RAM has about 7x more peak wheel torque than the Lightning does. Whether or not you could put that much more down to the ground is a separate calculation.
That was scary. Also I think backwards prevents the bucket from acting like a sail causing major drag when towing. I'm glad the TFL crew is safe. Awesome content as always.
@@wizofsorts physics are physics. They are not up to doing real work. Wow. They towed a ATV and trailer that would have been content behind a 2.3 ranger…. A normal 5000lbs RV would be a perfect test. Not a big ass toy hauler.
I've wondered what a diesel electric medium duty pickup would look like. Such a setup works well with trains. Probably too expensive and bulky though...
@@wizofsorts BEVs have some big shortcomings right now. With the energy storage shortcomings alone, you'll want people hating in electric trucks; ford and other manufacturers need to be pushed to either improve the tech or drop it if it becomes or remains a square peg into a round hole solution. Once Uncle Sam, in its over abundance of stupidity sunsets ICE vehicles, if that does happen, you can bet they'll be de-rating the performance of EVs for energy savings and environmental reasons, look at EV school busses today, they're not 0-60 performance monsters. Yes, they did this for safety and range reasons, but it's a glimpse of what's to come. That'll be a big EV selling point today, gone tomorrow.
I think ford went the right direction with keeping the ford lightning looking like a regular F150 and not trying and make it look ridiculous like most other electric cars have gone.
I was looking forward to buying a lightning as a 2nd vehicle, but Ford has priced me out of the market. I don’t need or want it bad enough to pay their new premium.
@@LucasLeCompteMusic and people wonder why college tuition is so high. Oh yeah that's right, the government again lol. Hurray for socialist policies. This country is done for.
In all reality the number 1 reason for loading the skiddy backwards is its counterweight and engine placement to allow for proper tounge weight. Same goes for excavators. Said counterweight would also help keep it from flipping when it's backed on the trailer.
I recently towed a lightly loaded 6×12 uhaul trailer behind my f150 4×4 5.0 XLT from NY to FLA. The return trip was minus the trailer. Without the trailer my range per tank was approx 440 miles...with the trailer approx 230 miles. With a Gas engine, the range was reduced by nearly half. The issue with electric trucks isn't range, it's charging time, an issue that battery tech and infrastructure improvements will solve.
The issue is with range as well. Until they can meet or exceed that 440 miles of range mark (unloaded) they simply aren’t comparable. For the additional cost, they need to be equal to or better than what they “compete” with.
We travel for work. Often state to state. If I'm traveling 500 miles to a job site with my trailer or tool box.... Do I now have to quote 2-3 days, 2-3 hotel nights, 2-3 per diems, etc to get there when I'm forced to drive an electric truck vs one day of travel and mileage with my current diesel?..... So not only does it make it more expensive for our customers, but I also am now losing jobs due to only being able to travel to one customer per week.
Interesting. I'm headed from Loveland, CO to Gillette, WY Monday morning. I have a 7 a.m. Tuesday appointment there. Now, I know which truck I must take.
Cummins and Alison yes, any domestic truck, hell NO! Come on TOYOTA, build us a REAL HD Diesel pickup and quite making excuses and putting out POS v6 turbo hybrid BS! You would EASILY destroy the domestic Diesel market if you tried.
If you watch the tug-of-war video the lightning was a split second faster reaction to start tugging and thats all it needed to pull the rope to pull the ram approximately a foot to win. As soon as the ram started it stopped the ford
Chargers cost money, time cost money, Electric cost money…… most likely won’t be a fleet vehicle….. haven’t read much good on EVs only they are “ saving the earth “ but that is not true.
Again you are over stating the capacity of that ram. The max tow on a 2500 Ram with the Cummins is 18950lbs. Thats a tradesman Crew Cab with 2WD. How do you get 20k towing with a payload under 2k????? 15% tongue weight on 20k is 3000lbs. 1800lb is only 9% of the GTW on a goosenect/5th wheel??? That truck weight 8200lbs and it has a GVWR or 10000lbs that's 1800lbs payload. Stop over stating the specs.
Excellent video. I'd really like to see yall implement a 0 - 60 - 0 test that can be be *repeatable* as new trucks come out. A short course Ike Gauntlet of sorts...
So $13K more expensive truck and that’s TFL’s price which no one can get. Then it only tow’s half the amount of a 3/4 ton diesel. I see no reason to consider this a vehicle for towing.
There actually is another group that can get that price. Stealership employees. 🤣 I've seen one on the road and it is owned by the top salesman at the local Ford dealership. The other ones are for sale for 30-40 over MSRP.
@@christophercarillo6342 they have to honor the price because of the email they received about any one marking them up or telling customers they needed to pay additional to keep the reservation will have all Lightenings allocated revoked
@@gelu88 sure. I could spend $15-$30k more for a truck that has 1/3 the range, and has to spend half its life leashed to a charger. A truck that has the ground clearance of a CR-V. Or… I could spend less money, not pay interest on the money set aside for fuel (that same $15-30k), and get more actual work out of the truck over its lifetime. But my operating cost?
A good way to check if the regen is working, is check brake temperature. Have you guys done a weight test? ( load the truck to max bed weight and see range difference? ) Good test, thanks for sharing!
I tow equipment and the wheelie is the reason I get trailers that have loading ramps with bracing that goes all the way to ground so no seesaw action. This also helps to keep trailer for lifting trucks rear axle off ground causing it to roll. Glad Andre saved it. Excellent skills under pressure
It doesn’t matter which way you haul a skid steer. I do it every single day. For those talking about the windshield…there is rear glass as well so you can break it just as easy. It does help if you have an implement on the front as a counter weight. I tow them backwards without anything on them and forwards when I have something on the front. Good rule of thumb is to always wear your seatbelt for that reason if you flip it over.
Diesel per gallon in SW Ohio $5.55 per gallon, Reg gas is $3.75 per gallon, EV limited range and initial cost too expensive, I’ll have to stay with a gas truck for the foreseeable future!
So 1mile per kwh is equal to 33.7mpge vs 11.1mpg. great efficiency but really won't compete for towing til battery capacity and recharge times improve. But the ford would suit my needs no problem.
I'm curious if you guys can do a range test while towing smaller loads. I'm looking to buy a new daily commuter that can tow jet skis or atvs on the weekend. Currently looking at the maverick hybrid vs lightning. Love the vids!
Andre knows his numbers 😍. I get clowned on at work for knowing these things. I work construction. BUT I LIVE FOR CARS AND TRUCKS. I shoulda been a RUclipsr. I had that idea in 03 but everyone called me dumb af. 😭😭😭
When the Lightning was towing an RV, you had to re-charge sooner. I seem to remember that it yielded only about 90 miles of towing a lighter trailer. Would the difference be a result of higher wind resistance? Or is my memory wrong?
They didn't even get 90. It was 75 and have to charge now. I hate these weight test they do cause no one will pull a flatbed with a skid steer with a half ton truck. Throw a 10,000lb 37ft camp trailer behind that Ford and the range would be even less.
@@deanmorris6679 100% correct. More recently the guys have gotten better at mentioning the type of trailer affects performance but in the past it was strictly the weight is all they seemed to care about. Towing with a flat trailer is totally different than towing an enclosed type trailer. An empty enclosed car trailer weighing around 4000 pounds would get worse fuel mileage than that loaded flat trailer did.
@@matthewanderson9912 I see a lot of people pulling RVs with suvs that have no business pulling them. They don't pull flatbeds. Them just going by weight does not account for the wind load that can be upto a couple thousand pounds depending on wind.
Less than finding a 300# barrels worth of crude, drilling or fracking for it. Transporting it to a refinery where it uses water cobalt and electricity to turn crude oil into barrels of petroleum products that can be burned in various engines. And then transporting it again before storing it in an underground tank. So you can use even more energy pumping it into your tank to burn it at 15-25% total efficiency. 👍🏻
Actually, most electrify comes from fossil fuels, which are used to power turbines. These turbines have a system efficiency of around 40%, which is more efficient than most non-hybrid autocycle car engines. That said, there's also efficiency loses by sending the power through transmissions lines and transformers. There's also an efficiency loss when charging and discharging. By the time your electricity reaches your wheels, your total thermal efficiency is probably +/- 10%, which is just on par with most ICE cars, maybe even worse than most ICE cars. People also claim other sources are cleaner, but none of them are as reliable. To run a wind or solar farm, you have to have traditional sources, mainly fossil fuel generation, to run standby, which defeats the purpose of these farms. Basically, for amount of power from a "green", you need the same amount on standby from a more stable source. Also, there's a relationship between ecology and economy. Here in California, we claim to be "green", because we produce a lot of power from wind and solar, but we don't like to talk about is just how much energy we must import due the instability of our power grid. Much of this imported power is from coal and gas generation, and to send this energy to our state is very inefficient and extremely expensive. At peak hours during the summer months, we pay $0.65/kWh, by far the most expensive power in the nation. And really, probably the most broken and inefficient power in the nation.
Love the videos! For next time, can you guys maybe do a cost per mile comparison? Obv. it'll vary state-to-state, but it would be a cool comparison to see the difference
Just do the math based on your electricity and diesel rates. 11.1 mpg diesel and 1 kwh /mile. If you used a more expensive dc fast charger around here it is $.43 per kwh. Diesel here is ~$5.6 per gallon. So at 100 miles of towing, it would be $50.45 for the diesel and $43 for the electric. So only $7 savings if using DC fast charge. But if I charge at home, the electricity cost for me in western WA would be $9.2 total for a savings of ~$41, which is obviously very significant given this example is talking about only 100 miles.
@@curtisbme If you're going to be towing for business use where TCO is king, you'd almost certainly only consider electric at this point if you work locally and charge at home or the shop yard. Off-peak EV charging for homeowners is listed at $.14 per kWh. Call it $.17 (the peak rate) for the worst-case scenario for a small business, So, $17 vs $50 *before* factoring the extra diesel burned in more-frequent starts and stops in local driving vs. that working in the EV's favor with regen.
They never speak of maintenance either. The electric vehicle essentially needs nothing done to its power train. Keep tires on it and you’re good to go. That’s a big difference as miles add up.
well that depends were you charge the Lightning. If they charged at the ranch at .14 per KW and I think they went 25 miles and at 1 mile per KW that .14 x 25= $3.50. Diesel average in Colorado is $3.90 and they averaged 11 mpg so they used 2.27 gallons. 2.27x $3.90= 8.85
Great video, you can place blocks under the rear of the trailer to keep things stable and level. Keep the Lightning videos coming. Thanks for doing what you do!
@@TFLtruck Very true, the two compete in weight, however Roman was referring to Horsepower and Torque in that quote. P.S. 3/4 ton is a payload classification and has nothing to do with GVWR. The label "Heavy Duty" is given to a truck when it's parts are beefed up for daily heavy hauling. I'm sure Ford would never call the Lightning HD.
All comes down to your use case. I tow 9500 pounds about a dozen times a year or once a month. However when I do it’s typically 100 to 300 miles. Occasionally further. I just couldn’t deal with dropping the trailer to recharge and then wait over an hour to get to 80%. If you don’t do that kind of towing though the lightning would do fine
I find it bemusing how EvGo, Electrify America etc all love to show pictures of nice, pull-through charging stations in their promotional materials, but I have yet to see such a facility actually deployed in the real world!
This! Towing our surfboat to Powell is 700 miles one way over the Rockies and through a desert... Can’t do that with an EV. EV trucks have a place but it’s not replacing an HD truck anytime soon
that is not the point of this series of videos. The point of this videos series is to show that electric trucks, specifically the F150 Lightning, are vary capable.
@@chrishansel9324 I mean its not really showing me its very capable... Its showing me that its good for 80% of normal people who "want" the truck image but should just get an SUV... But this truck is far from capable for people who actually use their trucks for hobbies or work. Its great for what it is, but that doesnt make it capable...
Andre is now the skid-steer master. Great video. The Lightning is blazingly quick, but for $13K less, I would choose the Ram if I Was towing heavy loads all the time.
Great video. I would love to see a pop up camper range test. The ki d of camp trailer that would match the height and width of the trucks bed. I would also love to see a 25-75 acceleration test. Keep these videos coming!
@The Fast Lane Truck did you guys swap back the tire to the lightning 🌩 stock tires? If not your range and acceleration might have been affected by the GR tires.
The big thing with towing 10,000 lbs in a trucks rated at the same is you can do it, but should you do it? We always stayed under 75% for the sake of that additional margin of safety. If we were going over 75% for the truck, we used one of our heavier trucks up to an F450. Then it was a Peterbuilt with one of the different trailers we had. This was especially important when hauling fluids or livestock. Those loads never sit perfectly still. It’s depends on what you tow as well as how much you tow.
@@jeffschlagel5632 Andy that is when the truck is new and in the Summer time, wait until the battery ages some and the weather is cold probably 40-50 miles.
Other than weight and cost, are there any other reasons why diesel electric has been in trains forever and not in road going vehicles? Seems like the best of both worlds. Tired of the electric vs diesel debate because you aren't going to convert someone to either side. If I personly had to choose only one it would be diesel for distances and time purposes and that's all that matters to me.
You don’t have to fall on one side or another, if I needed to tow distance I’d go diesel or gasoline, if I needed an around town truck I’d go electric.
Been saying this for years but it finally seems like it might happen with the ram EV it supposedly will have a range extender that will function similarly to what trains have... honestly I'd imagine HD trucks will go that way once that kind of setup is more proven
You guys are SOOOO close to getting it. It is all about use-case. If you have a landscaping company, or you are talking about a garbage truck or a school bus, plow, etc., something that is going to charge at your company every night, then the EV truck makes sense. In your example, let's say diesel is $5 per gallon, and a kWh is $0.14 (average cost in CO). At 11.1 miles per gallon, the Cummins costs about $0.45 per mile to haul with, while the F150 Lightning is $0.14 per mile. Every mile, you save $0.31. If you pay $19k more for the F150, that means that if you are going to drive the truck for more than 62k miles (which I imagine you will), then it is cheaper in the long run to use the electric powertrain. This doesn't even take into account the incredible volatility of gas/diesel prices vs electricity prices. Nor does it account for the resale value (which will you be able to sell easier in 5 or 10 years?) And finally, you are comparing a top-trim F150 to a mid trim Ram. The Laramie Longhorn will tow the same, but you could at least substitute the price to make it apples to apples, or use one of the lower trim Fords with the same drivetrain. /end rant
Bruh, I just looked at a Ram 2500 Limited Longhorn with the diesel and similar features as the F150 you have (e.g. LSD, air leveling, heavy duty alternators for PTO) Price is $79k.... At that price difference, the payback time is 12k towing miles, not even counting unladen miles, and not even talking about maintenance costs. Also, don't talk to me about "25 years from now" if you've never worked on a 25 year old diesel truck from the rust belt. Spoiler alert: not much of it lasts for 25 years....
They had to use the diesel to tow the trailer to where they wanted to test the electric because if they would have used the electric pickup to tow the trailer there there wouldn't be any battery power left to do the test
@@chrishansel9324 Some people have never thought how they actually use a vehicle vs what they think they would. I tow a pontoon 30 miles 1 way to the lake cabin in the spring and home in the fall, plenty of range. As far as the math goes he could be using NEW math where you don't like the outcome so you ignore facts and insert your own reality.
Neither will be of any use as no refined fuel, and no electricity generation to recharge with. Solar charging an EV would be possible but will take days.
@@gelu88 131 KW battery that was getting .9 KW/m in the video towing and it doesn’t let you deplete the entire battery - you won’t get near 150 miles of towing.
@@gelu88 so the next town with a charger is 170 miles and that's all hills between us. The odds are not in electrics favor. They don't make sense for long haul or people who's time is money.
Andre please tow your boat with the lightning and let us know the result! I think that is the sweet spot that Ford was imagining with the lightning. Shorter day trips close to home. See if you can go from your house to horsetooth and back! That would be a very practical real world test!
I like these comparison videos. Yes, everyone knows an EV will never out distance a diesel anytime soon. I’m pretty sure when the first car came out people thought their horses could go farther and eat hay anywhere. It’s still early tech and improving. Enjoy the videos for the entertainment
How long do EV’s get to use the “it’s early tech” excuse? Production EV’s have been around for over 130 years and have the same limitations now they’ve always had. The difference is now they have a huge iPad glued to the dash to tell you the limitations.
@@CommonSense823 I’d refer to mainstream adoption of EVs when talking about timeframe. We’ve really only had a 10-15 year period where this has been the case, so to me the early tech “excuse” would be valid for another 10-15 from now.
@@CommonSense823 I dont necessarily consider market share when using that term (since it's rather early days for them being sold in this manner), more with who is making them and how they are being sold to the consumer.
I was thinking 11 seconds. Glad to see I was close. Seems like the lightening would be a good around town vehicle. Not so much if you wanna travel. It's impressive for sure
That 0-60 on the Lightning with the trailer. WOW. Thats faster than a Chevy Spark with just a driver to 60mph. Impressive considering the Spark weighs all of what, 2700lbs??
@@302Mustang13 Still slower. The best 0-60mph unloaded data I could find was from MotorTrend with a 2021 HD shootout they did. Ram ran 0-60mph in 7.6 seconds.
@@killercan10 TFL said they usually get about 9 seconds in the Ram. Keep in mind this is at a mile above sea level and not on a test track that is prepped.
You mentioned aerodynamics and its affect on range, it would be really interesting to see the difference between a conventional and a teardrop travel trailer of roughly the same weight tested against each other.
Nice video and good to see Roman out with these types of videos. I’m not surprised by the better fuel efficiency than expected for both trucks honestly. Everyone gets hung up on the weight when towing but the size and type of trailer will determine the towing experience and especially the efficiency more than just the weight. Those campers and enclosed car trailers and horse trailers are like having a parachute behind you. And if they are long, they really will negatively affect a traditional 1500 truck due to their lighter weight. The Lightening is pretty heavy though so that’s a good thing for towing those types of trailers. Electric trucks may end up being the future, but right now and in the foreseeable future they are an answer to a question that no one asked.
It is the solution that would work in 99% of the situations that my neighbors and I have needed our trucks for in past 20 years. Towing around our properties, to and from hardware and tool rentals, and towing boats to the lake. Especially as very little of that is at freeway speed so the range isn't reduced as much. Most of the contractors I've worked with that have trucks would rarely have a work day that charging (or towing) would be an issue (assuming they are able to charge at home every night).
@@curtisbme I would say you and your neighbors are in the minority for typical truck users, especially contractors using them for work. I helped some family with a pressure washing business for a few years and I towed at a minimum 50 miles a night, and in most instances it would be 100 or more miles a night. That wouldn’t work with an electric truck. I would say outside of strictly city usage most contractors that tow would tow more than 100 miles a day.
@@matthewanderson9912 Certainly possible but I'd put money on the majority of truck owners never towing anything let alone someone regularly. Can't find statistics but a good chuck of suburban owners have never even gotten the bed dirty, especially those that jack it up and do aesthetic mods.
@@curtisbme you’re probably partly correct with city and suburban owners. But most everyone in the rest of the country use them atleast some of the time. I tow an enclosed car trailer with mine. Typically it’s a 250ish mile round trip for me. Not possible with an EV. I have friends at work that both tow campers. About the same distances. Anyways I like the idea of the performance of an EV with their instant torque. But until the technology allows for them to be driven like a typical gas or diesel truck (400 miles, refuel in a matter of a few minutes and go 400 more) I’m not interested. The whole political side of it is for another discussion too but no matter which side you’re own EVs are most certainly not zero emission vehicles.
I spotted them Thursday around noon from I-25 when they were swapping to the lightning. I almost slammed on my breaks, first time I see you guys filming in person. Keep up the awesome work!!
So the Ford lightning towed a 4K trailer around 67 miles before needing to recharge, I'm guessing its will go around 50 miles or less with 10K load! No thank you!! Grocery getter is all it is.
One point to raise is with a tune and few small upgrades you can increase the power of the diesel by quite a bit but the lighting you're kinda stuck where you are save a few power adjustments via upload but you're limited power wise
Thank you for a very interesting video. One thing you did NOT included in your calculations is the difference in routine maintenance. If the Lighting is like any other EV there is very little maintenance, rotate the tires, add window washer fluid, change the window wipers and cabin air filter and maybe at 125,000 miles replace battery coolant. All the internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles require much more routine maintenance, oils changes, oil filters, more frequent brake service to mention a few. The Cummins probably also needs diesel exhaust fluid (DEF). Perhaps you can get from the vehicle manuals the recommended services and their frequency, get a cost estimate from your auto mechanic and then compare routine maintenance cost of the EV to the ICE . Regardless thank you for video.
@F Democrats Those are good thing to consider. The F-150 Lighting offers an 8 year 100,000 mile warranty on the battery. The warranty is that the battery will still deliver 70% of their original rating. With other EVs, with liquid temperature management systems, people have reported very little degradation of their battery after 100,000 miles. Batteries from that are no longer being used in vehicles are being used as stationary storage systems. Thus providing a "second life." Mining of any materials has environmental and social impacts whether that's materials are used in batteries or burnt as fossil fuels. Material used in batteries can be recycled and there are already companies starting to recycle battery materials. Fossil fuels you used them once and their waste goes into the environment.
My 2012 ram Cummins with over 100 thousand miles is still worth around 40 grand I’ll have it for another ten years. These electric vehicles battery efficiency will die in a few years to keep you having a car payment. Just like home appliances cheaper to get rid of them then fix them
@@ElGuajiro48 half our garbage in this country is recycled other is dumped in land fills or sent to other countries to land fills wait for these panels and batteries to start being dumped 👍
Serious question; you always say that altitude affects ICE engines, which it does, but I'm sure you can tune the CPU and other things like the air intakes to account for this. It wont counteract the low air levels 100% but I'm sure dealerships and manufacturers do this for cars meant for high altitude locations. I used to pass by Death valley a lot and you can tell from the sound of the engine that it was not working in an optimal way even when there was too much air down there. Its the same principle, just needs tuning.
You cannot "tune" less air at higher altitudes. Turbos can help compensate for this, but you are going to lose power at altitude with any non forced induction ICE engine. Simple physics.
@@johnfischer1708 I know all about the air-fuel mixture 14.7:1, I watch Engineering Explained :) My point was if you live and drive a car in San Diego, when you go to the high sierras the engine will not work properly and you can feel the difference immediately. You would have to fix or "tune" it if this was a permanent move. Same if you go down to Death Valley. But in Colorado, cars will have to be "tuned" to the high altitude from the factory, and they will also not work properly in they drive down to Death Valley not because there is less air but because, the word I'm looking for is calibrated or acclimatized, to the air levels in that location.
@@bluceree7312 Sure, in the days of carburetors. Modern vehicles adjust the Fuel/Air mixture automatically so need to "tune" anything if you go to high altitudes anymore.
I would really like to see the lightning range with max load without hauling any trailer. What would be the max range. I personally rarely tow trailers but carry alot of load as a farmer. Can I get 200 miles with the lightning?
No. They have already tried to drive it down the hiway with no load or trailer to the next fast charger and didn't think they would make it and had to stop and slow charge 30 minutes and then turn around and go back 150 miles and then charge it 2 hours to get it back up over 95% charge. It's only good for about 100 miles away from home and then you charge it someplace while you eat or shop and then drive back assured that it is charged a bit more than you must have to.make it. If you drove it to an office job and charged it while you worked you might get away with driving most of the evening and then charging while you sleep and it's always ready to go that way but your not going to go 20 miles and check cows and then 20 miles to get feed or mineral blocks and then later 30 miles to get tractor parts etc etc without stopping to charge it before 5 in the evening to be sure you don't get in a bind to far away from a charger. If you could practice doing all that and mapping out your most regular activities you could probably run it down lower on charge before you must charge it but you would have to have another vehicle to be able to use the electric all day and come home with 15% charge and leave it charging in the evening while you take the wife to dinner someplace in the other vehicle.
The answer is yes. It all depends on how you drive it. If you drive like an idiot no if you drive sensibly yes. I you really want to learn about driving an EV I would watch other you tube channels.
I just want point out that if we want to compare the energy consumption of these trucks, we need to use the same units of energy. The diesel Ram, burning 41kWh of thermal energy per gallon of diesel uses 3.7kWh per mile traveled, while the lightning used 1.0kWh per mile. That’s nearly four times more energy used by the Ram to do the same work.
Keep in mind that using a Jake brake in slippery conditions will cause jack knife. The truck wants you to slow via both trailer brake and truck slowing weather regen or brakes
You should consider installing a full top on the pickup bed and do a distance trial. The upright tailgate probably affects mileage from driven wind from the front.
I think someone did a video about that on another channel, and the results were negligible. I have an 87 Ford Ranger that when I got it, it was just an open bed. I put a camper shell on it to keep stuff dry during the winter. I thought the extra weight of the camper shell would make some sort of fuel economy difference, but my fuel economy hasn't changed due to the shell/no shell like I thought it might, it stayed the same, so open bed VS camper shell doesn't change anything...maybe a tonneau cover might make a difference?
@@wildbill23c I was thinking of a flat cover, not a shell. Or else owners could consider leaving the tailgate down. Don't think the wind buffeting against the upright tailgate is good for mileage distance.
@@heretoforeunknown flat tops create worse milage. Tailgate actually redirects the airflow up and forward, creating a bubble. The air then passes over the roof, over the bubble, and off. bed covers prevent that bubble from forming, essentially turning the entire truck bed into a giant spoiler.
Good Job, Andre. You got it on there. I'm enjoying the EV truck videos even though I'm not in the market for one. It is fun to see the technology advance. I'm sure they will be there someday.
Have you discussed the cost of setting up a charger for the home for the regular folks? What about apartment dwellers? You can't park and leave your EV at a charger and go to bed. I'm not going sit sit outside Walmart for an hour everyday waiting to get to 80%. You would never get 100%. It's not all about access to travel charging, but residential charging as well.
The zero to sixty test was interesting but pointless, it doesn't matter how fast a work truck accelerates. And 68k is crazy expensive for a truck, 80k is just asinine for a truck with that limited a range. As you noted you can buy a lot of diesel for that price difference.
After diesel went over 5 bucks my friend sold his 2019 Ram diesel back to the dealer and made a grand and went out and bought his wife a little suv and took her gas powered 4 door truck.
Andre is now a skid-steer cowboy. I wouldn't give y'all a hard time about that because I think it was awesome that it stood up like that and Andre didn't panic. If he would have panicked and overcorrected it one way or the other it would have most likely gone off the side of the trailer and been laying on its side.
This.
i have to give them credit for not editing that part out... lol, it was a clencher moment
I would love to see them drive that dance floor sized scissor lift onto a trailer. Or even which truck could pull or tow it. Lifts are 20 times heavier than they look. I got one stuck in gravel once and needed a WAY bigger crane than I thought to get it out. I was expecting a lull or truck to tow it out, nope, needed the big boy crane on a new HERTZIG construction job.
I’d put some weights on te bucket.
Yup it'll happen learn to go with it
Another good reason to trailer skid loaders backwards is the windshield of the skid loader! They are expensive and rocks/road debris can break it very easily!
Yes sir broke one before at the beginning of the shift 😂 it was - 5 in mason city Iowa
All the skid steers I drove have plexiglass windshields.
@@dundonrl 3/4" gravel don't care.
@@TOM-yd8ub Neither does a bucket of heavy snow when it rolls down after putting it as high up as you can (knocked the glass out of the door)!
You guys need to do a 60 to 0 that’s more important than 0-60 times. The lightening can pull 10k pounds but can it stop it
I think the one-pedal function is disabled because you have to press the brake to engage the trailer brakes on heavy loads.
Seems like maybe a miss on their part but I bet the program to turn brake pedal into 7 pin brake output is well established. I would think at some point they could get that tuned for 1 pedal vs brake output. The ECM or some other body controller controls brake output voltage so their is no reason they couldn't figure it out.
Yes, but strong re-Gen deceleration can also trigger the brake lights and the trailer brakes.
No. You dont. During 1 pedal, the brake lights come on when you let up the accelerator. Trailer brakes would work
Sounds like it might be a lawyer telling the software guys "We have to make braking with heavy trailer loads the 100% responsibility of the driver"... just guessing.
I think it's really for brake fade purposes, as people instinctively expect no brake fade from one-pedal, while the trailer's physical brakes are still working and fading
What we need is a diesel electric hybrid for towing... Speed, power, AND range.
We really should use hybrids. They would definitely help with pollution for short driving stints but you have all the range of a gas vehicle. They are functional now without all the hassle of battery only and plug in only charging. People would accept that better then this current crop of crap of battery only thats a step backward in terms of convenience.
GM had the right idea with the hybrid pickups and SUVs in the mid/late 2000s, just wasn't executed well, but instead the just scrapped it instead of improving on it.
@@jimbob1096 diesel has the least pollution of ppm with the def systems
Facts
Need a pickup bed generator. Solved.
Great video. To use a sports analogy, too many people confuse power with endurance. “Range” is endurance. In football the defensive line is a powerful force to reckon with but anyone who has watched a defensive tackle try to run a fumble into the end zone will understand the difference.
I’d take the Cummins anyday …
Need that test from Washington to NYC SAAME TEST 650 MILES A DAY.
The EV at max capacity can out accelerate my Peterbilt 359 with no trailer but that doesn't mean the EV is a better truck.
Your Pete empty weighs more than either of their entire rigs lol. The shifting and building boost just slows our big trucks down so much
No, but the Tesla semi might be, if it ever comes out.
@Big Paw Exactly. I can't wait to see battery energy density and charging times improve. When it does, I think that a lot of people will be willing to concede that EVs are the better way forward. The proof is in the pudding in this video. The torque and acceleration is vastly superior, and this is a ½ ton EV compared to a ¾ ton diesel.
If we're being honest, the majority of folks are using their vehicles for short commutes (>60 miles)and puttering around town like 80% of the time, so for a lot of people...especially those who don't road trip much, an EV would be perfectly adequate for that general use case if available at the right price.
You can probably fit more people in your Peterbilt, doesn't mean you are taking the family to the zoo in it.
@@madguitarist EVs are a clear choice for one of the vehicles in a two vehicle household. It’s clearly better around town and you use the other vehicle on road trips.
Andre handled the bobcat like it's his job. Smooth operation, layed her down nice smooth and straight.
Oh yea!
How about a panic stop test between that 1/2 ton pickup VS an HD diesel pickup? That's where the problems arise, any truck can get the load moving, its the unplanned emergency stopping that'll get you.
Agreed! They should do a 60-0 along with the 0-60 to really test the trucks.
The RAM will be better because it is not maxed out. so I don't see how this matters.
@@chrishansel9324 It matters a lot if you are in the vehicle that the truck/trailer runs into because it can't stop because its overloaded. No, the RAM at that trailer weight isn't overloaded, but the F150 is.
@@chrishansel9324 I'm not sure, there's an extra 800 pounds of inertia to contend with.
Funny enough the brakes in that lightning are comparable to the 3/4 and to add to that, the regen also helps with braking so it's ver comparable and the lightning could actually be better.
Translation: Lightning is a great in-town tow vehicle
Cummins is a great out-of-town tow vehicle
Except that the Cummins does just fine in-town too. Why limit yourself to in-town for a higher price?
@@CommonSense823 fuel.
@@jghall00 The long range battery has a minimum buy in of 83k (xlt) . Even if it was free to charge it makes no sense.
@@user-st8ny6pi2d My Expedition was $150 to fill up. Most 3/4 tons are probably paying around the same, if not more. The Lightning is $13 at my current electricity rate. For fleets, maintenance and operations are a huge part of their costs. If the Lightning can get through a day, and charge overnight they're going to save a lot on fuel and there is no maintenance apart from tires. There's a reason it's sold out. People aren't stupid. They know what vehicle they need.
@@jghall00 1. People are stupid. They fall for propaganda all the time.
2. If it can get through a day (questionable) is not something anyone needs to ask when they purchase an ICE truck.
3. Thinking that $13 to recharge is going to remain $13 when the demand goes up is a fool’s hope
4. The reason they are sold out is because Ford can’t produce them. Rare metals that need to be strip mined are already scarce and will only get more so as the government pushes people toward EVs with artificially high fuel prices.
7:40 I mentioned this on the tug-of-war video, but it's worth repeating. You cannot compare torque values between these trucks.
The only time it's appropriate to compare powertrain torque ratings for two vehicles is if they have identical geartrain reduction ratios. These vehicles do not. They are off more than your typical combustion vs. combustion match-up.
All that matters at the end of the day is tire tractive force. This is the force that is pushing the vehicle forward at the contact patch. It’s dependent on wheel torque, tire radius, and coefficient of friction.
Actually you can, the torque from the diesel when in low gear and low range will be A LOT more than the EV could even dream about!
@@dundonrl If people started comparing wheel torque at a specific vehicle speed, that would absolutely be a fair comparison. But TFL isn't doing that. They are comparing powertrain (the input to the drivetrain) torque ratings. That doesn't work.
And yes, as I broke down in a tug-of-war video comment, the RAM has about 7x more peak wheel torque than the Lightning does. Whether or not you could put that much more down to the ground is a separate calculation.
That was scary. Also I think backwards prevents the bucket from acting like a sail causing major drag when towing. I'm glad the TFL crew is safe. Awesome content as always.
Too bad you can’t hand it off to the Diesel once you’ve accelerated on the highway to avoid taking the next exit to recharge for 30 minutes.
Haters will hate
Oh you’re wrong ! They’d have to charge for 10 hours! Lol 😂
@@wizofsorts physics are physics. They are not up to doing real work. Wow. They towed a ATV and trailer that would have been content behind a 2.3 ranger….
A normal 5000lbs RV would be a perfect test. Not a big ass toy hauler.
I've wondered what a diesel electric medium duty pickup would look like. Such a setup works well with trains. Probably too expensive and bulky though...
@@wizofsorts BEVs have some big shortcomings right now. With the energy storage shortcomings alone, you'll want people hating in electric trucks; ford and other manufacturers need to be pushed to either improve the tech or drop it if it becomes or remains a square peg into a round hole solution.
Once Uncle Sam, in its over abundance of stupidity sunsets ICE vehicles, if that does happen, you can bet they'll be de-rating the performance of EVs for energy savings and environmental reasons, look at EV school busses today, they're not 0-60 performance monsters. Yes, they did this for safety and range reasons, but it's a glimpse of what's to come. That'll be a big EV selling point today, gone tomorrow.
I think ford went the right direction with keeping the ford lightning looking like a regular F150 and not trying and make it look ridiculous like most other electric cars have gone.
Agreed.
I was looking forward to buying a lightning as a 2nd vehicle, but Ford has priced me out of the market. I don’t need or want it bad enough to pay their new premium.
Yep. They jacked up all EVs $7500 the day the government announced that is how much of a rebate the government was giving for buying and EV.
@@LucasLeCompteMusic government subsidies always read like indirect gifts to industry.
I hear that I wanted a Bronco but damn they jacked the price up to we’re it’s not something I’d touch now
The Lighting Pro is 47k or so. Smaller battery but still the best deal for a EV! Well worth it especially for a second vehicle.
@@LucasLeCompteMusic and people wonder why college tuition is so high. Oh yeah that's right, the government again lol. Hurray for socialist policies. This country is done for.
In all reality the number 1 reason for loading the skiddy backwards is its counterweight and engine placement to allow for proper tounge weight. Same goes for excavators. Said counterweight would also help keep it from flipping when it's backed on the trailer.
I recently towed a lightly loaded 6×12 uhaul trailer behind my f150 4×4 5.0 XLT from NY to FLA. The return trip was minus the trailer. Without the trailer my range per tank was approx 440 miles...with the trailer approx 230 miles. With a Gas engine, the range was reduced by nearly half. The issue with electric trucks isn't range, it's charging time, an issue that battery tech and infrastructure improvements will solve.
The issue is with range as well. Until they can meet or exceed that 440 miles of range mark (unloaded) they simply aren’t comparable. For the additional cost, they need to be equal to or better than what they “compete” with.
That’s a pretty big hit. The range drop towing 7,500 in a diesel f250 for me is 450 down to 300.
These numbers will only improve. We're here comparing brand new tech with twenty year developed tech in a diesel. Electric is clearly way better.
@@wizofsorts EV have been around for over 100 years. It's not new tech.
@@AkioWasRight not as a mass marketed means of transportation
We travel for work. Often state to state. If I'm traveling 500 miles to a job site with my trailer or tool box.... Do I now have to quote 2-3 days, 2-3 hotel nights, 2-3 per diems, etc to get there when I'm forced to drive an electric truck vs one day of travel and mileage with my current diesel?..... So not only does it make it more expensive for our customers, but I also am now losing jobs due to only being able to travel to one customer per week.
The numbers don't lie. Definately not replacing my Ecoboost F-150 with the Lightning. Thanks for clearing that up...
Interesting. I'm headed from Loveland, CO to Gillette, WY Monday morning. I have a 7 a.m. Tuesday appointment there. Now, I know which truck I must take.
I’ll
Take
That diesel anyday!! That ram is a good looking truck!
EV's were invented first but when ICE came along they withered away.
@@tonysheerness2427 only because oil was cheap and batteries sucked back then.
@@chrishansel9324 Oil is still cheap, they are playing politics with it.
Cummins and Alison yes, any domestic truck, hell NO!
Come on TOYOTA, build us a REAL HD Diesel pickup and quite making excuses and putting out POS v6 turbo hybrid BS!
You would EASILY destroy the domestic Diesel market if you tried.
If you watch the tug-of-war video the lightning was a split second faster reaction to start tugging and thats all it needed to pull the rope to pull the ram approximately a foot to win. As soon as the ram started it stopped the ford
Should have kept tugging till one of them gave out instead of trying not to break them.
@@roddycreswell8613 I imagine the Ford motors would cut back power before the electric motors started smoking and catching fire like power tools.
@@roddycreswell8613 or kept going until one ran out of gas or battery power lol
Lower speeds = more range. Lightning is awesome for towing around town. Fleets will buy them up.
Nope, fleets aren't setup to charge or maintain EVs.
@@dundonrl Yet. They're not set up yet. If someone tells them they can save 70% on fuel, you think they won't install chargers?
Chargers cost money, time cost money, Electric cost money…… most likely won’t be a fleet vehicle….. haven’t read much good on EVs only they are “ saving the earth “ but that is not true.
Again you are over stating the capacity of that ram. The max tow on a 2500 Ram with the Cummins is 18950lbs. Thats a tradesman Crew Cab with 2WD. How do you get 20k towing with a payload under 2k????? 15% tongue weight on 20k is 3000lbs. 1800lb is only 9% of the GTW on a goosenect/5th wheel??? That truck weight 8200lbs and it has a GVWR or 10000lbs that's 1800lbs payload. Stop over stating the specs.
Andre is a Legend. 🎉
Excellent video.
I'd really like to see yall implement a 0 - 60 - 0 test that can be be *repeatable* as new trucks come out.
A short course Ike Gauntlet of sorts...
So $13K more expensive truck and that’s TFL’s price which no one can get. Then it only tow’s half the amount of a 3/4 ton diesel. I see no reason to consider this a vehicle for towing.
There actually is another group that can get that price. Stealership employees. 🤣 I've seen one on the road and it is owned by the top salesman at the local Ford dealership. The other ones are for sale for 30-40 over MSRP.
I got my Lightning for MSRP. Most dealerships are honoring MSRP for reservation holders. If you abandon an order they will add ADM.
@@christophercarillo6342 they have to honor the price because of the email they received about any one marking them up or telling customers they needed to pay additional to keep the reservation will have all Lightenings allocated revoked
Operating cost? This thing will cost a faction as much to charge if you do it at the shop. You'll make that money back fast if you drive enough
@@gelu88 sure. I could spend $15-$30k more for a truck that has 1/3 the range, and has to spend half its life leashed to a charger. A truck that has the ground clearance of a CR-V.
Or… I could spend less money, not pay interest on the money set aside for fuel (that same $15-30k), and get more actual work out of the truck over its lifetime.
But my operating cost?
A good way to check if the regen is working, is check brake temperature. Have you guys done a weight test? ( load the truck to max bed weight and see range difference? ) Good test, thanks for sharing!
I tow equipment and the wheelie is the reason I get trailers that have loading ramps with bracing that goes all the way to ground so no seesaw action.
This also helps to keep trailer for lifting trucks rear axle off ground causing it to roll.
Glad Andre saved it. Excellent skills under pressure
It doesn’t matter which way you haul a skid steer. I do it every single day. For those talking about the windshield…there is rear glass as well so you can break it just as easy. It does help if you have an implement on the front as a counter weight. I tow them backwards without anything on them and forwards when I have something on the front. Good rule of thumb is to always wear your seatbelt for that reason if you flip it over.
Diesel per gallon in SW Ohio $5.55 per gallon, Reg gas is $3.75 per gallon, EV limited range and initial cost too expensive, I’ll have to stay with a gas truck for the foreseeable future!
Mine is ordered and I can’t wait.
The EV is no competition for the Cummins as a truck. If you are hauling every day, all day, stopping to charge 3 or 4 times a day is not an option.
I could see an EV for local deliveries, and when I say local, I mean walking distance. Anything more, gasoline. More than that, diesel.
the ford is also a 1/2 ton truck, running at max load in this test. anyone that tows frequently is gonna be looking at a 3/4
Andre! Is the wheely king!
So 1mile per kwh is equal to 33.7mpge vs 11.1mpg. great efficiency but really won't compete for towing til battery capacity and recharge times improve. But the ford would suit my needs no problem.
indeed, 40mpge as it is compared to a diesel
All we need is a bunch of landscapers towing 13k lbs doing 10 second 0-60 up Ventura blvd…smh
Brakes & tires?
Lol quote from video "range doesn't matter"
Nope, not a sponsored video.
Wow I didnt expect that kind of difference. Interesting to see.
I'm curious if you guys can do a range test while towing smaller loads. I'm looking to buy a new daily commuter that can tow jet skis or atvs on the weekend. Currently looking at the maverick hybrid vs lightning. Love the vids!
Andre knows his numbers 😍. I get clowned on at work for knowing these things. I work construction. BUT I LIVE FOR CARS AND TRUCKS. I shoulda been a RUclipsr. I had that idea in 03 but everyone called me dumb af. 😭😭😭
When the Lightning was towing an RV, you had to re-charge sooner. I seem to remember that it yielded only about 90 miles of towing a lighter trailer. Would the difference be a result of higher wind resistance? Or is my memory wrong?
That's what I was thinking.
If its the same test I'm thinking about, it got 110 miles but they didn't run it completely down and left enough to safely get to a charging station.
They didn't even get 90. It was 75 and have to charge now. I hate these weight test they do cause no one will pull a flatbed with a skid steer with a half ton truck. Throw a 10,000lb 37ft camp trailer behind that Ford and the range would be even less.
@@deanmorris6679 100% correct. More recently the guys have gotten better at mentioning the type of trailer affects performance but in the past it was strictly the weight is all they seemed to care about.
Towing with a flat trailer is totally different than towing an enclosed type trailer. An empty enclosed car trailer weighing around 4000 pounds would get worse fuel mileage than that loaded flat trailer did.
@@matthewanderson9912 I see a lot of people pulling RVs with suvs that have no business pulling them. They don't pull flatbeds. Them just going by weight does not account for the wind load that can be upto a couple thousand pounds depending on wind.
3:52 Best line ever! "I applaud you for your... BALLS..."
But all that fantastic towing capacity and almost instant(very fast) battery drain. 🔋 💀 ☠️
This is what I asked for a while back with the model x great! Thanks
Thanks for the ❤️ guys
How much energy does it take to make the electricity that powers the Lightning?
Depends on the source.
Less than finding a 300# barrels worth of crude, drilling or fracking for it. Transporting it to a refinery where it uses water cobalt and electricity to turn crude oil into barrels of petroleum products that can be burned in various engines. And then transporting it again before storing it in an underground tank. So you can use even more energy pumping it into your tank to burn it at 15-25% total efficiency. 👍🏻
Actually, most electrify comes from fossil fuels, which are used to power turbines. These turbines have a system efficiency of around 40%, which is more efficient than most non-hybrid autocycle car engines. That said, there's also efficiency loses by sending the power through transmissions lines and transformers. There's also an efficiency loss when charging and discharging. By the time your electricity reaches your wheels, your total thermal efficiency is probably +/- 10%, which is just on par with most ICE cars, maybe even worse than most ICE cars.
People also claim other sources are cleaner, but none of them are as reliable. To run a wind or solar farm, you have to have traditional sources, mainly fossil fuel generation, to run standby, which defeats the purpose of these farms. Basically, for amount of power from a "green", you need the same amount on standby from a more stable source.
Also, there's a relationship between ecology and economy. Here in California, we claim to be "green", because we produce a lot of power from wind and solar, but we don't like to talk about is just how much energy we must import due the instability of our power grid. Much of this imported power is from coal and gas generation, and to send this energy to our state is very inefficient and extremely expensive. At peak hours during the summer months, we pay $0.65/kWh, by far the most expensive power in the nation. And really, probably the most broken and inefficient power in the nation.
I whatched a test with the Ford lighting, the Rivan and the Gmc hummer and the hummer was a beast.
Love the videos! For next time, can you guys maybe do a cost per mile comparison? Obv. it'll vary state-to-state, but it would be a cool comparison to see the difference
Just do the math based on your electricity and diesel rates. 11.1 mpg diesel and 1 kwh /mile.
If you used a more expensive dc fast charger around here it is $.43 per kwh. Diesel here is ~$5.6 per gallon. So at 100 miles of towing, it would be $50.45 for the diesel and $43 for the electric. So only $7 savings if using DC fast charge. But if I charge at home, the electricity cost for me in western WA would be $9.2 total for a savings of ~$41, which is obviously very significant given this example is talking about only 100 miles.
@@curtisbme If you're going to be towing for business use where TCO is king, you'd almost certainly only consider electric at this point if you work locally and charge at home or the shop yard. Off-peak EV charging for homeowners is listed at $.14 per kWh. Call it $.17 (the peak rate) for the worst-case scenario for a small business, So, $17 vs $50 *before* factoring the extra diesel burned in more-frequent starts and stops in local driving vs. that working in the EV's favor with regen.
They never speak of maintenance either. The electric vehicle essentially needs nothing done to its power train. Keep tires on it and you’re good to go. That’s a big difference as miles add up.
well that depends were you charge the Lightning. If they charged at the ranch at .14 per KW and I think they went 25 miles and at 1 mile per KW that .14 x 25= $3.50. Diesel average in Colorado is $3.90 and they averaged 11 mpg so they used 2.27 gallons. 2.27x $3.90= 8.85
I saw a lightning yesterday in corpus Christi with zero dang dcfcs. That light bar is a big giveaway
That ev can’t pull 20k. Cummins for the win
Load the skid steer backwards because a lot of the weight is in the back of the skid steer, to bakance out the loader when its in use.
Great video, you can place blocks under the rear of the trailer to keep things stable and level. Keep the Lightning videos coming. Thanks for doing what you do!
TFL have you guys been told the cost to replace the battery on the Lightning?
Did Roman just say "Electric trucks are kind of competing in the Heavy Duty space"?
0of
They are not even competing in the mid-size/small truck space.
He's a comedian 🤣
Well, the Lightning has a GVWR of 8,550 lbs. this makes it a 3/4-ton classification.
@@TFLtruck having a 7 pin connector and a brake controller doesn’t make it “competitive”
@@TFLtruck Very true, the two compete in weight, however Roman was referring to Horsepower and Torque in that quote.
P.S. 3/4 ton is a payload classification and has nothing to do with GVWR. The label "Heavy Duty" is given to a truck when it's parts are beefed up for daily heavy hauling. I'm sure Ford would never call the Lightning HD.
Doesn’t surprise me that nobody could run a skid steer
That EV is faster 0-60 while towing 10,000 lbs then my 03 Honda CRV on its own. That time is unbelievable!
That's a good tip on loading the front end loader - something a lot of people would not have thought of.
I think most people who own front end loaders would have.
All comes down to your use case. I tow 9500 pounds about a dozen times a year or once a month. However when I do it’s typically 100 to 300 miles. Occasionally further. I just couldn’t deal with dropping the trailer to recharge and then wait over an hour to get to 80%.
If you don’t do that kind of towing though the lightning would do fine
I find it bemusing how EvGo, Electrify America etc all love to show pictures of nice, pull-through charging stations in their promotional materials, but I have yet to see such a facility actually deployed in the real world!
Excellent video gentlemen!
But the diesel can pull double that and go where ever you need to go when ever you need to go there.
This! Towing our surfboat to Powell is 700 miles one way over the Rockies and through a desert... Can’t do that with an EV. EV trucks have a place but it’s not replacing an HD truck anytime soon
Its a ridiculous comparison. These "influencers" are running out of original ideas.
that is not the point of this series of videos. The point of this videos series is to show that electric trucks, specifically the F150 Lightning, are vary capable.
@@chrishansel9324 Capable as in having to drive at 40mph to have any chance at making it to a charger in optimal conditions?
@@chrishansel9324 I mean its not really showing me its very capable... Its showing me that its good for 80% of normal people who "want" the truck image but should just get an SUV... But this truck is far from capable for people who actually use their trucks for hobbies or work. Its great for what it is, but that doesnt make it capable...
Andre is now the skid-steer master. Great video. The Lightning is blazingly quick, but for $13K less, I would choose the Ram if I Was towing heavy loads all the time.
Great video. I would love to see a pop up camper range test. The ki d of camp trailer that would match the height and width of the trucks bed. I would also love to see a 25-75 acceleration test. Keep these videos coming!
@The Fast Lane Truck did you guys swap back the tire to the lightning 🌩 stock tires? If not your range and acceleration might have been affected by the GR tires.
You averaged 52 mph in a 60 mph speed zone with the Lighting, what was you average mph in the same 60 mph speed zone with the Ram?
75 …
The big thing with towing 10,000 lbs in a trucks rated at the same is you can do it, but should you do it? We always stayed under 75% for the sake of that additional margin of safety. If we were going over 75% for the truck, we used one of our heavier trucks up to an F450. Then it was a Peterbuilt with one of the different trailers we had. This was especially important when hauling fluids or livestock. Those loads never sit perfectly still. It’s depends on what you tow as well as how much you tow.
I LOVE my Ford Lightning! Highly recommended it if you AREN'T towing long distances
80 miles towing doesn't even get me to the next city. Its useless.
@@jeffschlagel5632 Andy that is when the truck is new and in the Summer time, wait until the battery ages some and the weather is cold probably 40-50 miles.
@@jeffschlagel5632 still pretty damn impressive for an ELECTRIC truck right?
@@RobertoHernandez-cd9bs no not at all.
Other than weight and cost, are there any other reasons why diesel electric has been in trains forever and not in road going vehicles? Seems like the best of both worlds. Tired of the electric vs diesel debate because you aren't going to convert someone to either side. If I personly had to choose only one it would be diesel for distances and time purposes and that's all that matters to me.
The Fisker Karma was a gas electric vehicle
A diesel hybrid would be cool to see the range.
@@kc510 the Fisker wasn’t a hybrid it works like a generator running electric motors
You don’t have to fall on one side or another, if I needed to tow distance I’d go diesel or gasoline, if I needed an around town truck I’d go electric.
Been saying this for years but it finally seems like it might happen with the ram EV it supposedly will have a range extender that will function similarly to what trains have... honestly I'd imagine HD trucks will go that way once that kind of setup is more proven
You guys are SOOOO close to getting it.
It is all about use-case. If you have a landscaping company, or you are talking about a garbage truck or a school bus, plow, etc., something that is going to charge at your company every night, then the EV truck makes sense.
In your example, let's say diesel is $5 per gallon, and a kWh is $0.14 (average cost in CO). At 11.1 miles per gallon, the Cummins costs about $0.45 per mile to haul with, while the F150 Lightning is $0.14 per mile. Every mile, you save $0.31.
If you pay $19k more for the F150, that means that if you are going to drive the truck for more than 62k miles (which I imagine you will), then it is cheaper in the long run to use the electric powertrain.
This doesn't even take into account the incredible volatility of gas/diesel prices vs electricity prices. Nor does it account for the resale value (which will you be able to sell easier in 5 or 10 years?)
And finally, you are comparing a top-trim F150 to a mid trim Ram. The Laramie Longhorn will tow the same, but you could at least substitute the price to make it apples to apples, or use one of the lower trim Fords with the same drivetrain.
/end rant
Bruh, I just looked at a Ram 2500 Limited Longhorn with the diesel and similar features as the F150 you have (e.g. LSD, air leveling, heavy duty alternators for PTO)
Price is $79k....
At that price difference, the payback time is 12k towing miles, not even counting unladen miles, and not even talking about maintenance costs.
Also, don't talk to me about "25 years from now" if you've never worked on a 25 year old diesel truck from the rust belt.
Spoiler alert: not much of it lasts for 25 years....
Need to do a long downhill breaking test ev vs gas vs diesel.
they did
Ike Gauntlet videos.
Mentioned your tongue weight was heavier than you'd want or like, good thing about that skid steer vs a loaded trailer is you can move it to adjust!
They had to use the diesel to tow the trailer to where they wanted to test the electric because if they would have used the electric pickup to tow the trailer there there wouldn't be any battery power left to do the test
did you watch the same video? they only used 16% to do half the trip in the lightning 32% total. I guess math was not you subject.
@@chrishansel9324 Some people have never thought how they actually use a vehicle vs what they think they would. I tow a pontoon 30 miles 1 way to the lake cabin in the spring and home in the fall, plenty of range. As far as the math goes he could be using NEW math where you don't like the outcome so you ignore facts and insert your own reality.
@@lonsmithwesson1661 If you are only towing 60 miles you should be fine on one charge. Math does not lie EVs are two and a half time more efficent.
Here is a better question in a post apocalyptic world what would u rather have an ice car or an electric vehicle
Neither will be of any use as no refined fuel, and no electricity generation to recharge with.
Solar charging an EV would be possible but will take days.
Ohhh yeahhh dodge Cummins, my lightening can tow as much as you for about 50 miles before my battery goes dead.
More like 150 miles, but if lying to yourself makes you happy have fun paying for the gas.
@@gelu88 my truck cost 62k new u can’t touch a lightning for less then 90k, and ford just announced a price hike on them, 30k can buy a lot of gas
@@gelu88 131 KW battery that was getting .9 KW/m in the video towing and it doesn’t let you deplete the entire battery - you won’t get near 150 miles of towing.
@@gelu88 so the next town with a charger is 170 miles and that's all hills between us. The odds are not in electrics favor. They don't make sense for long haul or people who's time is money.
Andrey, you scared the sh*t out of me doing that wheeley with the skidsteer.
Andre please tow your boat with the lightning and let us know the result! I think that is the sweet spot that Ford was imagining with the lightning. Shorter day trips close to home. See if you can go from your house to horsetooth and back! That would be a very practical real world test!
True. A boat tow and launch with the AWD is perfect for the Lightning.
I just dont know yet about electricity, I'm watching this on my Abacus.
I like these comparison videos. Yes, everyone knows an EV will never out distance a diesel anytime soon. I’m pretty sure when the first car came out people thought their horses could go farther and eat hay anywhere. It’s still early tech and improving. Enjoy the videos for the entertainment
How long do EV’s get to use the “it’s early tech” excuse? Production EV’s have been around for over 130 years and have the same limitations now they’ve always had. The difference is now they have a huge iPad glued to the dash to tell you the limitations.
@@CommonSense823 I’d refer to mainstream adoption of EVs when talking about timeframe. We’ve really only had a 10-15 year period where this has been the case, so to me the early tech “excuse” would be valid for another 10-15 from now.
@@ALMX5DP if you consider 4% “mainstream” I guess.
@@CommonSense823 I dont necessarily consider market share when using that term (since it's rather early days for them being sold in this manner), more with who is making them and how they are being sold to the consumer.
@@CommonSense823 It was close to 0% decades ago
I was thinking 11 seconds. Glad to see I was close. Seems like the lightening would be a good around town vehicle. Not so much if you wanna travel. It's impressive for sure
It's not impressive at all! The infrastructure SUCKS for EVs, the range SUCKS for EVs and charging time SUCKS for EVs!
That 0-60 on the Lightning with the trailer. WOW. Thats faster than a Chevy Spark with just a driver to 60mph. Impressive considering the Spark weighs all of what, 2700lbs??
It's probably almost as quick as the Dodge Cummins unloaded.
@@302Mustang13 Still slower. The best 0-60mph unloaded data I could find was from MotorTrend with a 2021 HD shootout they did. Ram ran 0-60mph in 7.6 seconds.
@@killercan10 TFL said they usually get about 9 seconds in the Ram. Keep in mind this is at a mile above sea level and not on a test track that is prepped.
To be fair, the Spark has less than a fifth of the hp and an eighth of the torque.
You mentioned aerodynamics and its affect on range, it would be really interesting to see the difference between a conventional and a teardrop travel trailer of roughly the same weight tested against each other.
It’s a 10% difference, they could go 8-10 miles more is all.
Would love to see the 0-60 on the deisel maxed out.
Double the weight, double the time.
Now we all need a sticker with Keep you bucket down 🙋🏻♂️
Nice video and good to see Roman out with these types of videos.
I’m not surprised by the better fuel efficiency than expected for both trucks honestly. Everyone gets hung up on the weight when towing but the size and type of trailer will determine the towing experience and especially the efficiency more than just the weight. Those campers and enclosed car trailers and horse trailers are like having a parachute behind you. And if they are long, they really will negatively affect a traditional 1500 truck due to their lighter weight. The Lightening is pretty heavy though so that’s a good thing for towing those types of trailers.
Electric trucks may end up being the future, but right now and in the foreseeable future they are an answer to a question that no one asked.
It is the solution that would work in 99% of the situations that my neighbors and I have needed our trucks for in past 20 years. Towing around our properties, to and from hardware and tool rentals, and towing boats to the lake. Especially as very little of that is at freeway speed so the range isn't reduced as much. Most of the contractors I've worked with that have trucks would rarely have a work day that charging (or towing) would be an issue (assuming they are able to charge at home every night).
@@curtisbme I would say you and your neighbors are in the minority for typical truck users, especially contractors using them for work. I helped some family with a pressure washing business for a few years and I towed at a minimum 50 miles a night, and in most instances it would be 100 or more miles a night. That wouldn’t work with an electric truck.
I would say outside of strictly city usage most contractors that tow would tow more than 100 miles a day.
@@matthewanderson9912 Certainly possible but I'd put money on the majority of truck owners never towing anything let alone someone regularly. Can't find statistics but a good chuck of suburban owners have never even gotten the bed dirty, especially those that jack it up and do aesthetic mods.
@@curtisbme you’re probably partly correct with city and suburban owners. But most everyone in the rest of the country use them atleast some of the time. I tow an enclosed car trailer with mine. Typically it’s a 250ish mile round trip for me. Not possible with an EV. I have friends at work that both tow campers. About the same distances.
Anyways I like the idea of the performance of an EV with their instant torque. But until the technology allows for them to be driven like a typical gas or diesel truck (400 miles, refuel in a matter of a few minutes and go 400 more) I’m not interested. The whole political side of it is for another discussion too but no matter which side you’re own EVs are most certainly not zero emission vehicles.
I spotted them Thursday around noon from I-25 when they were swapping to the lightning. I almost slammed on my breaks, first time I see you guys filming in person. Keep up the awesome work!!
So the Ford lightning towed a 4K trailer around 67 miles before needing to recharge, I'm guessing its will go around 50 miles or less with 10K load! No thank you!! Grocery getter is all it is.
Andre don't care if he dies as long as u get it on video and it looks good that dedication
One point to raise is with a tune and few small upgrades you can increase the power of the diesel by quite a bit but the lighting you're kinda stuck where you are save a few power adjustments via upload but you're limited power wise
And shorten it's life by half.
A few key strokes and you can recalibrate power delivery and torque limiting on the lightning.
Great job Andre!
Thank you for a very interesting video. One thing you did NOT included in your calculations is the difference in routine maintenance. If the Lighting is like any other EV there is very little maintenance, rotate the tires, add window washer fluid, change the window wipers and cabin air filter and maybe at 125,000 miles replace battery coolant. All the internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles require much more routine maintenance, oils changes, oil filters, more frequent brake service to mention a few. The Cummins probably also needs diesel exhaust fluid (DEF). Perhaps you can get from the vehicle manuals the recommended services and their frequency, get a cost estimate from your auto mechanic and then compare routine maintenance cost of the EV to the ICE . Regardless thank you for video.
@F Democrats Those are good thing to consider. The F-150 Lighting offers an 8 year 100,000 mile warranty on the battery. The warranty is that the battery will still deliver 70% of their original rating. With other EVs, with liquid temperature management systems, people have reported very little degradation of their battery after 100,000 miles. Batteries from that are no longer being used in vehicles are being used as stationary storage systems. Thus providing a "second life." Mining of any materials has environmental and social impacts whether that's materials are used in batteries or burnt as fossil fuels. Material used in batteries can be recycled and there are already companies starting to recycle battery materials. Fossil fuels you used them once and their waste goes into the environment.
My 2012 ram Cummins with over 100 thousand miles is still worth around 40 grand I’ll have it for another ten years. These electric vehicles battery efficiency will die in a few years to keep you having a car payment. Just like home appliances cheaper to get rid of them then fix them
@@ElGuajiro48 half our garbage in this country is recycled other is dumped in land fills or sent to other countries to land fills wait for these panels and batteries to start being dumped 👍
Serious question; you always say that altitude affects ICE engines, which it does, but I'm sure you can tune the CPU and other things like the air intakes to account for this. It wont counteract the low air levels 100% but I'm sure dealerships and manufacturers do this for cars meant for high altitude locations.
I used to pass by Death valley a lot and you can tell from the sound of the engine that it was not working in an optimal way even when there was too much air down there. Its the same principle, just needs tuning.
You cannot "tune" less air at higher altitudes. Turbos can help compensate for this, but you are going to lose power at altitude with any non forced induction ICE engine. Simple physics.
@@johnfischer1708 - Who builds non-FI automotive/truck engines in 2022 ??
@@johnfischer1708 I know all about the air-fuel mixture 14.7:1, I watch Engineering Explained :) My point was if you live and drive a car in San Diego, when you go to the high sierras the engine will not work properly and you can feel the difference immediately. You would have to fix or "tune" it if this was a permanent move. Same if you go down to Death Valley. But in Colorado, cars will have to be "tuned" to the high altitude from the factory, and they will also not work properly in they drive down to Death Valley not because there is less air but because, the word I'm looking for is calibrated or acclimatized, to the air levels in that location.
@@bluceree7312 Sure, in the days of carburetors. Modern vehicles adjust the Fuel/Air mixture automatically so need to "tune" anything if you go to high altitudes anymore.
@@sking2173 Sorry I meant "Forced Induction", not fuel injected. I edited my post accordingly to reduce confusion.
To me it's great that Ford kept the classic F150 looks. I'm glad people don't recognize it as an electric vehicle.
And every aftermarket accessory that fits any other f150 fits here too. Great decision IMO.
I think you guys should have a camera recording the diesel exhaust sound everytime you do towing videos
I would really like to see the lightning range with max load without hauling any trailer. What would be the max range. I personally rarely tow trailers but carry alot of load as a farmer. Can I get 200 miles with the lightning?
No. They have already tried to drive it down the hiway with no load or trailer to the next fast charger and didn't think they would make it and had to stop and slow charge 30 minutes and then turn around and go back 150 miles and then charge it 2 hours to get it back up over 95% charge.
It's only good for about 100 miles away from home and then you charge it someplace while you eat or shop and then drive back assured that it is charged a bit more than you must have to.make it. If you drove it to an office job and charged it while you worked you might get away with driving most of the evening and then charging while you sleep and it's always ready to go that way but your not going to go 20 miles and check cows and then 20 miles to get feed or mineral blocks and then later 30 miles to get tractor parts etc etc without stopping to charge it before 5 in the evening to be sure you don't get in a bind to far away from a charger.
If you could practice doing all that and mapping out your most regular activities you could probably run it down lower on charge before you must charge it but you would have to have another vehicle to be able to use the electric all day and come home with 15% charge and leave it charging in the evening while you take the wife to dinner someplace in the other vehicle.
@@crazyoilfieldmechanic3195 They are new to EVs and don't understand how to drive them to max efficiency.
The answer is yes. It all depends on how you drive it. If you drive like an idiot no if you drive sensibly yes. I you really want to learn about driving an EV I would watch other you tube channels.
I just want point out that if we want to compare the energy consumption of these trucks, we need to use the same units of energy. The diesel Ram, burning 41kWh of thermal energy per gallon of diesel uses 3.7kWh per mile traveled, while the lightning used 1.0kWh per mile. That’s nearly four times more energy used by the Ram to do the same work.
The Ram carries 1267kWh of thermal energy in its fuel tank.
Keep in mind that using a Jake brake in slippery conditions will cause jack knife. The truck wants you to slow via both trailer brake and truck slowing weather regen or brakes
You should consider installing a full top on the pickup bed and do a distance trial. The upright tailgate probably affects mileage from driven wind from the front.
I think someone did a video about that on another channel, and the results were negligible.
I have an 87 Ford Ranger that when I got it, it was just an open bed. I put a camper shell on it to keep stuff dry during the winter. I thought the extra weight of the camper shell would make some sort of fuel economy difference, but my fuel economy hasn't changed due to the shell/no shell like I thought it might, it stayed the same, so open bed VS camper shell doesn't change anything...maybe a tonneau cover might make a difference?
@@wildbill23c I was thinking of a flat cover, not a shell. Or else owners could consider leaving the tailgate down. Don't think the wind buffeting against the upright tailgate is good for mileage distance.
@@heretoforeunknown IDK, I never saw any decrease or increase open bed with tailgate up VS camper shell covering the bed.
@@heretoforeunknown flat tops create worse milage. Tailgate actually redirects the airflow up and forward, creating a bubble. The air then passes over the roof, over the bubble, and off. bed covers prevent that bubble from forming, essentially turning the entire truck bed into a giant spoiler.
Good Job, Andre. You got it on there. I'm enjoying the EV truck videos even though I'm not in the market for one. It is fun to see the technology advance. I'm sure they will be there someday.
Battery technology is the big problem. The trucks are sweet though
Have you discussed the cost of setting up a charger for the home for the regular folks? What about apartment dwellers? You can't park and leave your EV at a charger and go to bed. I'm not going sit sit outside Walmart for an hour everyday waiting to get to 80%. You would never get 100%. It's not all about access to travel charging, but residential charging as well.
The zero to sixty test was interesting but pointless, it doesn't matter how fast a work truck accelerates. And 68k is crazy expensive for a truck, 80k is just asinine for a truck with that limited a range. As you noted you can buy a lot of diesel for that price difference.
After diesel went over 5 bucks my friend sold his 2019 Ram diesel back to the dealer and made a grand and went out and bought his wife a little suv and took her gas powered 4 door truck.
Andre didn't panic, that's what matters. We all have pucker panic at some point in time.