I can't agree with this take at all. The first part of it before the time skip is fine, but the afterwards when he's older it's demonstrated in any scene he's in with Silco that he hates the position he's in, both for himself and his daughter and is actively fighting to try and push back against Silco. He's afraid. For his daughter and well as the mess he's found himself in. He's LITERALLY stuck between a rock and a hard place. What he did before the time skip was fucking stupid and terrible, but after he shows signs he'd consider pulling the pin on a grenade to blow both himself and Silco up, but his fear for his daughter and himself is what keeps him from going through with the act. You sit there and paint him as if he's a completely selfish individual that doesn't deserve any amount of sympathy for the position he finds himself in after the time skip. I won't forgive him for what he did prior to the time skip, but the picture you are painting him as after the time skip is off base and coming from some odd position that doesn't make any sense when you pay attention to his mannerisms anytime he's around Silco or the point on the bridge when he doesn't want to fire on Caitlyn. He's not a good man, but he's not Silco. Silco is a monster that develops a soft spot for Jinx. Marcus is a fool who makes a terrible choice and then gets stuck in a terrible predicament. He's no saint, but far from the selfish devil you seem to want to paint him as.
This video is not about how sympathetic Marcus is, it's about what we can learn about planning for and being a father from his approach and choices. Marcus's decisions are erratic and often irrational, in that he claims he doesn't have a choice or is put into an impossible position, and yet over and over again it's his own choices that lead him there. Appreciate you took the time for such a detailed comment, thanks!
I agree. Marcus never came off as selfish or arrogant to me post time skip, he came off as someone who was foolish and immature when they were young, began a family without thinking about how those problems may impact the family, and now is trapped in a terrible place because of their past actions and can't find any kind of good outcome. When he was younger, he looked down on the Undercity, and attempted to do something similar in action to what Greyson did with Vander, but fundamentally not the same in spirit. After making his deal with Silco, he came tainted with the corruption of politics, and when he grew up, fell in love with a woman and had a daughter, he began to realize he made a terrible mistake and regrets those younger rash decisions. However, what exactly is he able to do about it now? His wife is gone, meaning if he dies, his daughter will have no one left. Silco shows he very easily can get access to her, despite being an Undercity resident, and even shows he has enough power to bring one of his minions who is very clearly an "undercity thug" type into Piltover as well, with no attempts to hide their identities. He even not just "showed up at his door", but got inside his house AND was able to get his daughter to "trust" him enough to play a game together, without Marcus ever hearing any word he was coming. Silco was showing off that he can reach Marcus, but especially his daughter, anywhere at any time, and there's nothing Marcus could do to ever stop him. Caitlyn spelled it out when she met with the Coucil, he didn't work with Silco because of what he had to gain, but because of what he had to lose. He can't fight Silco out of fear of what Silco WILL do to his daughter, not because of what Silco "might" do, but he also doesn't have the strength of will needed to actually try and do what he can to change things either. He matured far too late in life, allowing himself to make serious mistakes that will have a lasting impact, before he ever learned not to make those kinds of mistakes in the first place. Vi was able to mess up and learn because of Vander watching over her like BadgerDad mentioned in the parenting video, which gave her a safe space to grow and mature, and tragically that was cut short and she ended up making a terrible mistake with Powder that she now has to live with the consequences of. Marcus effectively did the same thing, but while Vi is more sympathetic and understandable because she was young and was still learning, Marcus was already an adult, he should have learned these lessons by now yet didn't. He's certainly absolutely not meant to be a "good person" or a "good father", he's 100% a villain and you are meant to critique him for his failings. Even if he "tried to be the best father he could", that still doesn't mean he was a "good father", but I wouldn't say that why he failed was because he was selfish, but because he was foolish. He comes across as almost a "middle ground" between Vander and Silco as fathers. Vander began descending into the brutality of the Undercity, but realized his mistake extremely quickly and stepped back to try and make up for his mistakes by raising a daughter to be the best person she could. Silco descended into the brutality, let himself become consumed by it, and when he realized his mistakes after getting a daughter, chose to try and help Jinx grow into "someone who could survive in that brutality". Marcus stands between the two, let himself get mired in the corruption and brutality of the city, but he never allowed himself to be consumed by it and fully embrace it like Silco did, but he never had the strength to pull himself out of it like Vander either. It does ultimately make him the worst father of the three, as despite Vander's failings and Silco's... everything, they both tried to make their daughters "Strong" based on what they personally thought strength was, whereas Marcus did nothing for his daughter. If I were to describe things in terms of the video's metaphor, I'd say "the issue with his character" wasn't that he crossed the line in the sand and refused to go back, but rather he never learned to pay attention to where the line was, crossed it, and by the time he realized he did, he was too deep to ever have a chance of going back. Like Topgamer said, he's absolutely no saint and certainly is a terrible father, but he's no erratic and irrational devil either. He's a tragic but human character precisely because you can see "what he had the potential to be" all over the show, and then look at him and see how he failed to become any of that.
I love the Point of No Return, some of the most powerful storytelling is raising the question of this line - is there truly a point of no return and where is it in character decisions? For example, do you think Jinx has a point of no return?
I'm theorizing that maybe that one weird lady with the nose tubes whose son got killed might take in this guy's daughter if Silco had the girl taken away. It would be interesting to see more of Nosetube, she did seem sort of standout to me.
About that last part there buddy , in comparison Marcus is a better dad or father than Silco because his kid isn't a insane supervillain with a traumatic past like Jinx
One thing about Marcus that I think is that he learned the wrong lessons from his mentor,, Grayson. Her and Vander had a relationship built on mutual respect and solidarity, namely keeping open conflict off the table. Marcus and Stilco clearly had no respect for each other, but I think he continued to entangle himself with the crime boss and justified it because he drew from Grayson's example. Certainly did not help that Stilco probably had incriminating leverage on Marcus.
Interesting you say that Grayson was his mentor, it didn't come across like that to me. Marcus doesn't really appreciate Grayson, and repeatedly pushes against her approach and authority. I think Silco didn't respect Marcus because of how easily he was bought early on. If Marcus had worked with Silco as a 'necessary evil', I think Silco would've been more frustrated but also respected Marcus. The funny thing is, I don't know if Silco had incriminating leverage given how he visits Marcus's daughter. Why would he need to do that if he had Marcus owned already? This is also where I'm sure it's sensitive for some, that Marcus had other options besides stay where he was and continue helping Silco. They weren't easy or good options, but they existed, yet he chose to stay in the city, with his daughter and do Silco's bidding no matter how many it hurt. Those 'non choices' absolutely are choices - it's what makes Marcus's story so emotionally powerful - what would any of us do in his situation?
@@badgerdad6690Reason I say she was his mentor is because she took him with her to meet Vander, like she was showing him the ropes. Also, he went to her grave and grieved for her, even years later. It was clear he respected her dearly. She saw something in him,like she had in Caitlyn, and had not realised that he had severe flaws.
@@johnaucamp7106 Great point, forgot about the grave visit. He was probably too hard headed, and maybe she thought she could help him work through his flaws by guiding him during tricky situations (like with Vander and the 'bombing' implications).
@@badgerdad6690 I think she wanted to show her that being hard handed in dealing with the Undercity isn't their only option, but his prejudice blinded him. I think Grayson shrugged off Marcus' prejudice against the lower city as she probably got it from many above and below her, and hoped to partially cure him of this.
I absolutely agree with you that Silco, although obviously the villain, is still a better father than Marcus. I think that is why I enjoyed Silco so much. He is very complex in motivation and attitude which makes him a great villain, but also relatable enough to see his humanity. And the wonderful duality of bad man but good father really hammers that home.
I think from the christian perspective it's that there is no point of no return when it comes to God, you can always repent to him and ask forgiveness and his mercy, but that doesn't mean you are freed from the consequences of your actions here in this world. You still made the choices and have to take whatever real consequences there are for you. But I still firmly believe that it is never to late to try and do what is right. You may not be rewarded, you may die, but I think that it is possible to choose good over evil
![Twenty One Pilots - “The Line” (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Music Video]](/img/1.gif)
I can't agree with this take at all. The first part of it before the time skip is fine, but the afterwards when he's older it's demonstrated in any scene he's in with Silco that he hates the position he's in, both for himself and his daughter and is actively fighting to try and push back against Silco. He's afraid. For his daughter and well as the mess he's found himself in. He's LITERALLY stuck between a rock and a hard place.
What he did before the time skip was fucking stupid and terrible, but after he shows signs he'd consider pulling the pin on a grenade to blow both himself and Silco up, but his fear for his daughter and himself is what keeps him from going through with the act. You sit there and paint him as if he's a completely selfish individual that doesn't deserve any amount of sympathy for the position he finds himself in after the time skip. I won't forgive him for what he did prior to the time skip, but the picture you are painting him as after the time skip is off base and coming from some odd position that doesn't make any sense when you pay attention to his mannerisms anytime he's around Silco or the point on the bridge when he doesn't want to fire on Caitlyn.
He's not a good man, but he's not Silco. Silco is a monster that develops a soft spot for Jinx. Marcus is a fool who makes a terrible choice and then gets stuck in a terrible predicament. He's no saint, but far from the selfish devil you seem to want to paint him as.
This video is not about how sympathetic Marcus is, it's about what we can learn about planning for and being a father from his approach and choices. Marcus's decisions are erratic and often irrational, in that he claims he doesn't have a choice or is put into an impossible position, and yet over and over again it's his own choices that lead him there.
Appreciate you took the time for such a detailed comment, thanks!
I agree. Marcus never came off as selfish or arrogant to me post time skip, he came off as someone who was foolish and immature when they were young, began a family without thinking about how those problems may impact the family, and now is trapped in a terrible place because of their past actions and can't find any kind of good outcome. When he was younger, he looked down on the Undercity, and attempted to do something similar in action to what Greyson did with Vander, but fundamentally not the same in spirit. After making his deal with Silco, he came tainted with the corruption of politics, and when he grew up, fell in love with a woman and had a daughter, he began to realize he made a terrible mistake and regrets those younger rash decisions.
However, what exactly is he able to do about it now? His wife is gone, meaning if he dies, his daughter will have no one left. Silco shows he very easily can get access to her, despite being an Undercity resident, and even shows he has enough power to bring one of his minions who is very clearly an "undercity thug" type into Piltover as well, with no attempts to hide their identities. He even not just "showed up at his door", but got inside his house AND was able to get his daughter to "trust" him enough to play a game together, without Marcus ever hearing any word he was coming. Silco was showing off that he can reach Marcus, but especially his daughter, anywhere at any time, and there's nothing Marcus could do to ever stop him. Caitlyn spelled it out when she met with the Coucil, he didn't work with Silco because of what he had to gain, but because of what he had to lose. He can't fight Silco out of fear of what Silco WILL do to his daughter, not because of what Silco "might" do, but he also doesn't have the strength of will needed to actually try and do what he can to change things either.
He matured far too late in life, allowing himself to make serious mistakes that will have a lasting impact, before he ever learned not to make those kinds of mistakes in the first place. Vi was able to mess up and learn because of Vander watching over her like BadgerDad mentioned in the parenting video, which gave her a safe space to grow and mature, and tragically that was cut short and she ended up making a terrible mistake with Powder that she now has to live with the consequences of. Marcus effectively did the same thing, but while Vi is more sympathetic and understandable because she was young and was still learning, Marcus was already an adult, he should have learned these lessons by now yet didn't.
He's certainly absolutely not meant to be a "good person" or a "good father", he's 100% a villain and you are meant to critique him for his failings. Even if he "tried to be the best father he could", that still doesn't mean he was a "good father", but I wouldn't say that why he failed was because he was selfish, but because he was foolish. He comes across as almost a "middle ground" between Vander and Silco as fathers. Vander began descending into the brutality of the Undercity, but realized his mistake extremely quickly and stepped back to try and make up for his mistakes by raising a daughter to be the best person she could. Silco descended into the brutality, let himself become consumed by it, and when he realized his mistakes after getting a daughter, chose to try and help Jinx grow into "someone who could survive in that brutality". Marcus stands between the two, let himself get mired in the corruption and brutality of the city, but he never allowed himself to be consumed by it and fully embrace it like Silco did, but he never had the strength to pull himself out of it like Vander either. It does ultimately make him the worst father of the three, as despite Vander's failings and Silco's... everything, they both tried to make their daughters "Strong" based on what they personally thought strength was, whereas Marcus did nothing for his daughter.
If I were to describe things in terms of the video's metaphor, I'd say "the issue with his character" wasn't that he crossed the line in the sand and refused to go back, but rather he never learned to pay attention to where the line was, crossed it, and by the time he realized he did, he was too deep to ever have a chance of going back. Like Topgamer said, he's absolutely no saint and certainly is a terrible father, but he's no erratic and irrational devil either. He's a tragic but human character precisely because you can see "what he had the potential to be" all over the show, and then look at him and see how he failed to become any of that.
I love the Point of No Return, some of the most powerful storytelling is raising the question of this line - is there truly a point of no return and where is it in character decisions? For example, do you think Jinx has a point of no return?
Personally yes, and it to me is the tea party scene + Silco’s death.
I think jinx point of no return was the bridge scene. Once she was injected with shimmer and pulled all of them into one room, the end was inevitable.
Why does this vid just have 28 views?! How does this just get 28 views?! This is too good to have just 28 views. Really great content!
Thanks it’s the curse of a small channel, eventually the algorithm will give it a chance but takes a lot longer. Slow and steady!
@@badgerdad6690 From one small channel to another, you're doing great! Better slow and steady than fast and fruitless.
@@TheRevenantEdits Thanks! I'm much more into organic growth and quality vs. tons of mediocre clickbait videos. I know it'll be slow, and that's ok :)
I'm theorizing that maybe that one weird lady with the nose tubes whose son got killed might take in this guy's daughter if Silco had the girl taken away. It would be interesting to see more of Nosetube, she did seem sort of standout to me.
Nosetube lady is theorized to have connections to another major character from League of Legends, so we may see more of her
If I am not mistaken this red-haired nosetube lady's name is Reni (or maybe spelled Renee) ☺
About that last part there buddy , in comparison Marcus is a better dad or father than Silco because his kid isn't a insane supervillain with a traumatic past like Jinx
Such good discussions in the comments agreed, got to give it a rewatch
I love engaging with the comments, really great insights and discussion.
One thing about Marcus that I think is that he learned the wrong lessons from his mentor,, Grayson. Her and Vander had a relationship built on mutual respect and solidarity, namely keeping open conflict off the table. Marcus and Stilco clearly had no respect for each other, but I think he continued to entangle himself with the crime boss and justified it because he drew from Grayson's example. Certainly did not help that Stilco probably had incriminating leverage on Marcus.
Interesting you say that Grayson was his mentor, it didn't come across like that to me. Marcus doesn't really appreciate Grayson, and repeatedly pushes against her approach and authority.
I think Silco didn't respect Marcus because of how easily he was bought early on. If Marcus had worked with Silco as a 'necessary evil', I think Silco would've been more frustrated but also respected Marcus. The funny thing is, I don't know if Silco had incriminating leverage given how he visits Marcus's daughter. Why would he need to do that if he had Marcus owned already?
This is also where I'm sure it's sensitive for some, that Marcus had other options besides stay where he was and continue helping Silco. They weren't easy or good options, but they existed, yet he chose to stay in the city, with his daughter and do Silco's bidding no matter how many it hurt. Those 'non choices' absolutely are choices - it's what makes Marcus's story so emotionally powerful - what would any of us do in his situation?
@@badgerdad6690Reason I say she was his mentor is because she took him with her to meet Vander, like she was showing him the ropes. Also, he went to her grave and grieved for her, even years later. It was clear he respected her dearly. She saw something in him,like she had in Caitlyn, and had not realised that he had severe flaws.
@@johnaucamp7106 Great point, forgot about the grave visit. He was probably too hard headed, and maybe she thought she could help him work through his flaws by guiding him during tricky situations (like with Vander and the 'bombing' implications).
@@badgerdad6690 I think she wanted to show her that being hard handed in dealing with the Undercity isn't their only option, but his prejudice blinded him. I think Grayson shrugged off Marcus' prejudice against the lower city as she probably got it from many above and below her, and hoped to partially cure him of this.
@@badgerdad6690 This is what I love about Arcane. Its so layered that we can discuss a side character like this for hours. Few shows have this depth.
bro wtf how do you have so low views, ur content is top notch
The curse of a new channel ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I didn't even realized that Marcus's daughter was probably born during the time skip and it's also implied that his wife died at some point.
Right, as another commenter noted, pretty much all the pictures we see don’t have his wife. Probably too painful, or maybe he adopted her?
@@badgerdad6690 Probably too painful and very possible she died in child birth.
I absolutely agree with you that Silco, although obviously the villain, is still a better father than Marcus. I think that is why I enjoyed Silco so much. He is very complex in motivation and attitude which makes him a great villain, but also relatable enough to see his humanity. And the wonderful duality of bad man but good father really hammers that home.
Great comment, the nuances and small details are what makes me come back to this show again and again.
I think maybe the wife died during childbirth because there is no picture of him and his wife with his daughter together
Great point! I didn't scour every bit of footage so it's possible there was something I missed, this clue makes sense
I think from the christian perspective it's that there is no point of no return when it comes to God, you can always repent to him and ask forgiveness and his mercy, but that doesn't mean you are freed from the consequences of your actions here in this world. You still made the choices and have to take whatever real consequences there are for you. But I still firmly believe that it is never to late to try and do what is right. You may not be rewarded, you may die, but I think that it is possible to choose good over evil
Excellent comment, appreciate you taking the time!
silco is not as good as a dad as you seem to think! he encourages jinx's mental health issues!