@@bahamaviking1069 pretty much. Dude only bitches about stuff he doesn't like and does "Lore Talks" which is basically just him rambling about something he's already talked about but now he's doing some speculation too
i know these vids take an awful lot of work for the views, but just know you're appreciated and i always look forward to them and have for years. Thank you! LLaP!
I always thought that Garak took over Cardassia after the war ended 'cause he was literally the only person left alive who had any governmental training/knowledge as well as he had the "trust" of Starfleet since he had worked with them during the war.
@@Hakar17 idk if they ever did in the books but in the post DS9 audio series that the actors did (I think on the channel 7th Rule) they did get together but got divorced after a while.
8:08 Thats a crucial flaw in that system. Tain should have known that weakness and set up a dead man switch. If he were captured or killed by him not checking in to the switch would activate the system to select and reveal information needed for continuance of all operations.
Same weakness in Star Wars's 2 Sith rule. There *should* be a deadman switch where it reveals all the knowledge of the master to the apprentice should said apprentice manage to kill their master as *intended* to prevent loss of knowledge and experience.
BASHIR: I take it you didn't enjoy your brief stint on Romulus. You were posing as a... gardener weren't you? GARAK: One of the few instances where my cover proved to be more enjoyable than the actual assignment.
Section 31’s greatest advantage was their invisibility. Being unable to even name or speculate on the covert branch of the Federation until the latter end of the Dominion War was the sign of their masterful secrecy. The Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar were wickedly effective, but you knew they were there and could thus be undermined, suspected, resisted, or countered through an intense level of luck. But if you don’t know Section 31 exists…well.
tracking how the power vacuum is filled would be difficult as many of your assets to keep an eye on it were likely purged or side stepped to fill it, so section 31 would have to do a lot of square 1 work to spy on the new spies
Excellent video. Top drawer video production. In my head-canon watching DS9 during its first run on television I was reminded of the tension between the SS (military wing of the Nazi party) and the Wehrmacht (regular German army) in the Third Reich when I thought about the Obsidian Order versus the military in the Cardassian empire.
my favourite secret military branch in the star trek mythos. muchos gracias 🎉 they don't write characters like Elim Garak no more. we 90s Star Trek fans were so spoilt for choice compared to now. Live long & prosper 👍
@FosterTravis1071 that's more of a central organizing command than true integration. Each department still does their own thing and governed by different charters and laws. It's kinda like multiple companies doing their own thing but being owned by 1 company at the top.
Right, but to mirror the Obsidian Order, those conglomerated agencies would have to first fall out of the control of a withering elected government, and then become an arm of a new fascist state.
The Obsidian Order were clearly modelled after the Okhrana and KGB. They gave the Cardassians a darker more sinister aspect than the Klingons as villains - particularly after Chain of Command. The Tal Shiar almost seem cuddly by comparison, since they are more pragmatic. The Obsidian Order possess a certain sadism that goes beyond mere intelligence gathering.
Plus the Fact tain as head had garrak wipe out the old powers of the obsidian order the tal shiar and even some klingons for some reason despite the fact most these people according to garak like tain were retired or getting ready to meaning their deaths realistically wasen't needed he just wanted them gone.
I can see those but also the CIA since you have episodes with characters saying the Obsidian Order is the best out of all of them and in our world the CIA has done the most harm worldwide than all others, while also some good but the harm outweighs the bad easily. Others could be the "best" like Section 31 but regardless, all of these agencies in real life are a parasite that has to be controlled for the good of humanity, even when we do need them for good work. I would say South America, Cuba, and close to our borders would love to have a word with the CIA, but it's worldwide. Not counting the DEA,FBI, and other agencies that have offices in other countries as well.
There is a trilogy of DS9 books that talks about how and when the Cardassians made their presence known to the Bajorans. In it, it is strongly implied that Tain had Garak kill the previous Kai of Bajor before Opaka. Also, there was a woman "observer" from the Obsidian Order that Dukat had to deal with every now and then. She was the one who conceived the idea of constructing an orbital ore processing station to steal Bajor's natural resources because mining the planet directly would've rendered it uninhabitable.
There is no evidence that the Detapa Council was ever dissolved, only that it grew weaker and weaker over the last 5 centuries. Though its stated multiple times in DS9 that leaving Bajor was political decision, aka from Detapa Council and not a military one. Showing the Council still had some power over foreign policy. There is also no evidence that life on Cardassia got that much better for the weakest and poorest members of their society during last 5 centuries. We know from Gul Madred that by the 24th century many orphan children lived on the streets of Cardassia. Some think later in 24the Century the military aka Central Command took over or at least grew in political power and Cardassia got better, but we have no evidence of this. At best it seems the Central Command used conquest to distract the population and used plundered resources as stop gap measures to paper over problems but not solve them. We also only have Advocate Kovat's word that there was no crime on Cardassia and the poorest members of their society could walk the streets at night in safety. Cardassia is based on fascist Italy and Soviet Union, which both had crime and massive corruption. Its just that it was covered up to maintain the illusion of a Great Nation. At best this means the Order was obsessed with maintaining the status quo and at worst was playing the power and corruption games at the expense of the Cardassian people like rest of Cardassian government. Oh and people do not call it the Battle of the Omarion Nebula, but the Massacre at the Omarion Nebula.
The idea of them having always-on surveillance in _every_ Cardassian citizen's home is frankly hilarious. Even with the idea _wasn't_ explicitly for counterterrorism but so that they could (2:58) "find... traitors wherever they needed to," the *sheer volume of data* an Obsidian Order operative would need to comb through to find something incriminating would easily exhaust their resources. Even if you assume that they developed cutting-edge machine learning models to find "the good bits," a far more efficient use of that technology and those resources would be to build a system that simply _invented_ "evidence" as needed, _a la_ "In the Pale Moonlight."
@@shocktnc Some of the writers would loudly complain during the pre-DISC era of Trek about how much canon there was and how "careful" they had to be with it. Seems that went out the window with the more recent era of Trek, for a substantial part of it anyway.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
I just wanna say, I appreciate that you're actually exploring lore and talking about it instead of just making an AI read wookipedia.
I love how many people are turning on Eckharts Ladder lmao
I haven't watched his shit in ages. Is that what he's doing these days?
@@bahamaviking1069 pretty much. Dude only bitches about stuff he doesn't like and does "Lore Talks" which is basically just him rambling about something he's already talked about but now he's doing some speculation too
Hear hear!
Wait what happened?
i know these vids take an awful lot of work for the views, but just know you're appreciated and i always look forward to them and have for years. Thank you! LLaP!
I always thought that Garak took over Cardassia after the war ended 'cause he was literally the only person left alive who had any governmental training/knowledge as well as he had the "trust" of Starfleet since he had worked with them during the war.
Read a stitch in time.
it would also help that his husband is a member of Starfleet
@@thedemolitionmunicipleDo they canonically get together?
@@Hakar17 idk if they ever did in the books but in the post DS9 audio series that the actors did (I think on the channel 7th Rule) they did get together but got divorced after a while.
@Blimbus-Blombo Interesting I've seen them shipped alot in various fanfics but never anything like a novel or the like.
8:08 Thats a crucial flaw in that system. Tain should have known that weakness and set up a dead man switch. If he were captured or killed by him not checking in to the switch would activate the system to select and reveal information needed for continuance of all operations.
So kill him and get the info you want?
@@LordTalax Depends on the circumstances of his death.
@@LordTalaxonly if you're the person replacing him. Basically sends an email to his replacement with a briefing.
Same weakness in Star Wars's 2 Sith rule.
There *should* be a deadman switch where it reveals all the knowledge of the master to the apprentice should said apprentice manage to kill their master as *intended* to prevent loss of knowledge and experience.
_”Just plain, simple Garak.”_
BASHIR: I take it you didn't enjoy your brief stint on Romulus. You were posing as a... gardener weren't you?
GARAK: One of the few instances where my cover proved to be more enjoyable than the actual assignment.
A video about Garak would be a great follow up to this.
One of the best storylines in Star Trek. Deep intrigue and suspense without having to darken the Starfleet reputation with Section 31 stuff.
Section 31 be laughing their arses off when the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order got themselves obliterated, I'm sure.
Section 31’s greatest advantage was their invisibility. Being unable to even name or speculate on the covert branch of the Federation until the latter end of the Dominion War was the sign of their masterful secrecy.
The Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar were wickedly effective, but you knew they were there and could thus be undermined, suspected, resisted, or countered through an intense level of luck. But if you don’t know Section 31 exists…well.
My thoughts as well.
@@SchneeflockeMonsoonit’s rather difficult to hit a target that you don’t know is there
@@littleredpony6868
“Can’t hit what ain’t there!”
-Scout, TF2, son of the Spy
tracking how the power vacuum is filled would be difficult as many of your assets to keep an eye on it were likely purged or side stepped to fill it, so section 31 would have to do a lot of square 1 work to spy on the new spies
Whenever you upload a video it makes my day. Keep up the great work
Excellent video. Top drawer video production.
In my head-canon watching DS9 during its first run on television I was reminded of the tension between the SS (military wing of the Nazi party) and the Wehrmacht (regular German army) in the Third Reich when I thought about the Obsidian Order versus the military in the Cardassian empire.
3:18 "There... Are... FOUR LIGHTS!!!"
The Cardassians & Romulans making the same mistakes of letting their Intelligence branches too far off the leash.
HECK YEAH!! ITS ABOUT TIME!!!
vid idea: a specific history of the invasion of bajor
It's been far too long since I've enjoyed your videos. Curse the algorithm! :)
Thanks for the content and especially digging more into obsidian order!
Thank You!
Excellent work!
They did the order so wrong in deep space nine. No way any secret order would just go all in on one high risk, and highly visible operation.
The order would not, but tain would, he was using the situation to come out of retirement. He had to take some risks.
would love to see some lore as to what happened to Cardassia after the events of DS9.
my favourite secret military branch in the star trek mythos. muchos gracias 🎉
they don't write characters like Elim Garak no more.
we 90s Star Trek fans were so spoilt for choice compared to now. Live long & prosper 👍
I wonder if the Pakleds had a secret intelligence agency?
A secretly intelligent agency
They secretly looked for thing to make them strong.
Pakled Intelligence would just openly ask people what they're doing.
Nice!
Imagine if the CIA, NSA, and FBI were consolidated into a single department. That would be like the Obsidian order in its beginning.
The DNI.... it's been awhile since we got the very thing
@FosterTravis1071 that's more of a central organizing command than true integration. Each department still does their own thing and governed by different charters and laws.
It's kinda like multiple companies doing their own thing but being owned by 1 company at the top.
Right, but to mirror the Obsidian Order, those conglomerated agencies would have to first fall out of the control of a withering elected government, and then become an arm of a new fascist state.
The Obsidian Order were clearly modelled after the Okhrana and KGB. They gave the Cardassians a darker more sinister aspect than the Klingons as villains - particularly after Chain of Command. The Tal Shiar almost seem cuddly by comparison, since they are more pragmatic. The Obsidian Order possess a certain sadism that goes beyond mere intelligence gathering.
Plus the Fact tain as head had garrak wipe out the old powers of the obsidian order the tal shiar and even some klingons for some reason despite the fact most these people according to garak like tain were retired or getting ready to meaning their deaths realistically wasen't needed he just wanted them gone.
More likely the East German stasi given that the stasi had would have a pair of your underpants so they could track you anywhere even in west Germany
I can see those but also the CIA since you have episodes with characters saying the Obsidian Order is the best out of all of them and in our world the CIA has done the most harm worldwide than all others, while also some good but the harm outweighs the bad easily. Others could be the "best" like Section 31 but regardless, all of these agencies in real life are a parasite that has to be controlled for the good of humanity, even when we do need them for good work. I would say South America, Cuba, and close to our borders would love to have a word with the CIA, but it's worldwide. Not counting the DEA,FBI, and other agencies that have offices in other countries as well.
There is a trilogy of DS9 books that talks about how and when the Cardassians made their presence known to the Bajorans. In it, it is strongly implied that Tain had Garak kill the previous Kai of Bajor before Opaka. Also, there was a woman "observer" from the Obsidian Order that Dukat had to deal with every now and then. She was the one who conceived the idea of constructing an orbital ore processing station to steal Bajor's natural resources because mining the planet directly would've rendered it uninhabitable.
0:25 Oh like the FBI!
Is it wrong to have the hots for Cardassian Seska?
There is no evidence that the Detapa Council was ever dissolved, only that it grew weaker and weaker over the last 5 centuries. Though its stated multiple times in DS9 that leaving Bajor was political decision, aka from Detapa Council and not a military one. Showing the Council still had some power over foreign policy.
There is also no evidence that life on Cardassia got that much better for the weakest and poorest members of their society during last 5 centuries. We know from Gul Madred that by the 24th century many orphan children lived on the streets of Cardassia. Some think later in 24the Century the military aka Central Command took over or at least grew in political power and Cardassia got better, but we have no evidence of this. At best it seems the Central Command used conquest to distract the population and used plundered resources as stop gap measures to paper over problems but not solve them. We also only have Advocate Kovat's word that there was no crime on Cardassia and the poorest members of their society could walk the streets at night in safety. Cardassia is based on fascist Italy and Soviet Union, which both had crime and massive corruption. Its just that it was covered up to maintain the illusion of a Great Nation. At best this means the Order was obsessed with maintaining the status quo and at worst was playing the power and corruption games at the expense of the Cardassian people like rest of Cardassian government.
Oh and people do not call it the Battle of the Omarion Nebula, but the Massacre at the Omarion Nebula.
I hope they release more of STO. I'm waiting to see Mark Hale shenanigans.
Aye; a lot of content to be explored after the Borg stuff...I reckon more Romulan stuff will come first, however
It being an ‘order’ suggests to me that it started life as a military unit given that it’s a word to describe ‘fleets’ in Cardassian parlance.
Let us SHINE
Section 31 but left unchecked and basically unopposed
So, Elim was the last man standing, as it were, hem hem.
The idea of them having always-on surveillance in _every_ Cardassian citizen's home is frankly hilarious. Even with the idea _wasn't_ explicitly for counterterrorism but so that they could (2:58) "find... traitors wherever they needed to," the *sheer volume of data* an Obsidian Order operative would need to comb through to find something incriminating would easily exhaust their resources. Even if you assume that they developed cutting-edge machine learning models to find "the good bits," a far more efficient use of that technology and those resources would be to build a system that simply _invented_ "evidence" as needed, _a la_ "In the Pale Moonlight."
Off topic but, I wonder how many ships a planet would be able to produce. A thousand? Considering the size of most ships in Star Trek
For Mars, it was four during the Borg incursion.
With the technology for automatic and self replicating manufacturing you can turn an entire planet into ships.
Those obsidian keldons didn't do too well against the the Dominion, even with five Tal ' shiar Warbirds present
OP. Maybe you can do a video about Babylon 5 Psi Corp.
🖖
SPACE!!!
So does Star fleet not have a commodore? Above the rank of captain also why is there 2 commander ranks?
the Obsidian Order got slapped around by the dominion lol!
Sounds like cia.
Truly, a *black* ops division.
I love the "β" to mark Beta Content.
0:07 isn’t that true of every secret service?
Everyone has reason to fear the order... Enbrain Tain
Paramount needs to hire you as a writer for all their Trek shows
Knowing lore and being able to write it are very different. Though he would a great one to give them an earfull when they break cannon
@@shocktnc Some of the writers would loudly complain during the pre-DISC era of Trek about how much canon there was and how "careful" they had to be with it.
Seems that went out the window with the more recent era of Trek, for a substantial part of it anyway.
So they are kgb/ real world smersh
I trust the UNIVERSE!
SCIENCE!!!
Why are there so many weird comments with blue text in them?
A new RUclips "feature." Auto-generated search links in comments.
Pithas Lok
The more you draw power away from the people and towards a central authority, the more evil that power becomes.
Absolute power absolutely corrupts
The Obsidian Order: So named, because the Cardassian heart is hard and black. And their ways are evil.
Is it possible to support you?
Compared to Section 31 the Obsidian Order and Tal-Shair were rank amateurs.
The Obsidian Order 🫡
701
I thought Gul was over Legate
comment
Reply
5th 😢
First! King me!
Nah... it was @MrGhjkl63
@@kva7922046 nuh uh
Why is there only a single decent comment?
0 likes in 20 seconds, fell off
Can't you come up with your own comment? Do you really have to use a dumb meme? Say something original...
Fuck your comment.
Garak and tain
What about them?
@inajar7947 main player's that's what