Starfleet's territorial policy can be summed up as "Space is full of really cool stuff that we want to see. We keep going in a given direction until we run into someone who punches us in the face for looking at 'their' stuff"
I immediately thought of Jadzia's awful line in 'The Jem'Hadar'. A representative of the Dominion comes through the wormhole and says 'Stop violating our territory'. And she stupidly claps back with 'That won't stop us from exploring the Gamma Quadrant!'
@@Jokie155 Not exactly the smartest response from Jadzia, but fitting with Starfleet policy, and you have to remember that prior to that episode, the Dominion were mostly rumour. The Ferengi had managed to start trading with some of their subsidiaries, but no-one from our side had a clue how deep the rabbit hole went. Even later it was shown that it was still possible to go into the Gamma Quadrant and not be in Dominion space (go through the Wormhole and turn right? That's the Dominion. Turn left? That's not... yet)
I always went with that that area is connected to the rest of the UFP, it’s just above and/or below the plane of the galaxy/what is represented on maps.
Yeh. I always find it weird that when a map is shown,.they use a 2D map to try and represent a 3D area. Also, considering the size of space (making your trip down to the corner shop looks like peanuts in comparison) I'd be surprised if the whole "everything in blue = federation and everything in red = Klingon etc. is more a fake projection Vs actual reality where the actual maps of blue, red, green etc. is a more more wiery as Klingon/federatin/romulan influence only extents to a number of systems within the coloured areas and a number of heavily chartered routes between them - so the enterprise D could explore "federation space" (according to the map) and still discover new species and civilisations because, well.....the maps aren't actually accurate.
@@depreseo Problems resulting from trying to represent 3D space in 2D are not new, look at any flat map of the Earth. (With flat Earth maps the biggest problem is coping with the fact that the Earth isn’t flat, of course.) Anyway. The fact that the galactic disk is about a thousand light years thick leaves lots of room for regions of space claimed by various powers to overlap as seen on such maps, but how would we represent that without requiring some sort of holographic technology? Lots of cross-section maps showing which power’s claimed territory overlaps which other power’s at various locations? Something else I’ve never seen or heard addressed- the whole quadrant naming convention is an invention of the UFP. What conventions do the Klingons use? The Romulans? All the other powers? Is it common to all per some treaty we’ve never heard of, like the unspoken agreement that makes two ships from opposing powers always “right side up” when they randomly run into each other?
@@markfergerson2145the federations is more an exploratory body than either the klingons or romulans, so their maps would be larger and more detailed. Foreign powers would get a hold of these maps, either freely given, traded, or stolen, and would most likely base their own courses based on the same maps. That, and there would have to be some kind of agreeded upon mapping technique in order to properly show territories. And don't forget the god-magic that is the universal translator, it probably automatically changes everything over into the other side's map standard. As far as the ship's orientation goes, that's just lazy writing that we're all supposed to ignore
i tend to assume that a lot of weirdness in "why is the federation that shape" or "why is the federation out there?" can be explained by the fact that the federation grows mainly by absorbing other polities in as new members. so that bit on the other side of the romulans? the territory of species/star-nations found by a starfleet ship mapping along the borders of romulan space, which decided to join the UFP for the socioeconomic and military advantages that brings.
Yeah, but at the same time an unaligned system might be cought in the established rivalry of the Federation with one of their neighbours and because of their position far away from the center they will not profit from the Federations protection, in open out war might even be the first casualty. Like when Bajor signed a neutrality treaty with the Dominion in the Eve of the Dominion war.
@@dawoifee In those kinds of situations, if the planet or other polity is still in the application process, that application can be delayed until such a time as it's safe to do so - like with Bajor.
And this explains the hostility of modern romulans. They feel fenced in and the only way to break out is a fight with the UFP because they will stick their nose in member or not as long as they are asked.
This contradicts apocrypha (and canon?) that the Romulans were fighting an all out war on their border opposite the Neutral Zone during the Federation's Golden Age. And that's what kept them completely isolationist during that time. They didn't want to stir the Federation or even let the Federation know they were vulnerable while they were in a total war of attrition. Once they destroyed the other power they were then free to concentrate on their Alpha rivals once again..... "We're back."
It's been thought to be a thing at least since the Romulans 'reappeared' in early TNG. Their commander even implied they had been occupied with something like that or equally absorbing, that episode.
The UFP's local neighborhood is a fairly thick section of the Milky Way. The enemies could've been above or below the areas that Starfleet was exploring.
3:30 For pre warp politics, I will once again point to the North Sentinel Islands. India claims the whole island chain as their own territory and controls access. If you want to go there, you have to ask them. The inhabitants are pre-metallurgy and murderously isolationist. So they don't do diplomacy or seafaring. And they definitely do not consider themselves Indians or take part in the Indian government. It is about as close to a "pre-warp" case as we can get on earth.
@@Silverhawk100eh no. If you know your history you would know that many societies were history xenophobic. The first U.S. contact with Koreans ended up with dead Americans for example.
@@Ggdivhjkjl Yes, they do mind. They have not let anyone visit without incident for decades, particularly if the visits are by individuals or in small numbers.
Starfleet maps much like chess should be Tridimensional meaning the Federation could border 2 places in the same place of a 2-dimensional map because the borders are at different levels, or they could control territory above or below another government's territory allowing them to pass to other areas of the quadrant.
Why? this doesn't make sense because the entire setting is in a galaxy, which while not completely flat, is a disk. The entire point of border is to shows the area where the governing bodies exerts control. its both political AND military, in the case of Trek universe with warp drive, having a abnormal shaped border in the Y axis does nothing for anyone, because a small mistake or inaccuracy in jump just create political issues.
@@GIIToTIIG "Why? this doesn't make sense because the entire setting is in a galaxy, which while not completely flat, is a disk." Come on man, don't be obtuse - that "disk" is hundreds of light-years tall, and thus could easily accommodate what OP was saying.
@@GIIToTIIG You mean Z Axis, X and Y are what make a 2 dimensional image. It's a "disc" but it's about 1,000 Light Years thick out at the arms, and it's 2,600 Light Years thick towards the center. Sure that's a fraction of the radius that's about 50,000 Light Years, but it's far from nothing. 1,000 LY is plenty to go around another empire. I mean do you know how many star systems are within 1,000 LY of each other? A lot. To you the galaxy is a disc, but to some alien it might be a wheel. X, Y, Z is relative to your perspective. If you can occupy a star system and go around, civilizations will. Not saying it's impossible to fully control a region, but space exists in three dimensions and it's weird you'd try to pretend otherwise. Space combat won't look like a WWII battle like Star Trek does either.
@@GIIToTIIG The galaxy is 1,000 light years deep at it's edges and 3,600 in the middle bulge. But you are also overlooking the fact the the galaxy itself is surrounded by space. They could simply leave the galaxy and re-enter it at some other point. This is why 2D maps don't work in a 3D environment. You cannot have a border if others can simply fly around it. It's like nations on earth only have jurisdiction 12 miles out from their coastline. The cannot own all of the ocean. The same applies with planets. Nobody can own all the space between the stars. How would you police it without absolutely huge fleets of ships? If I'm to believe Star Trek just about every bit of the Milky Way is part of some greater empire, union, confederation, etc etc all constantly pushing and shoving against each other. Yet the super advanced aliens only ever have one planet.
I always felt like the dividing line between the alpha and beta quadrants running down the centre of the federation was kinda dumb because the whole alpha/beta quadrant divide functionally never comes up in the show. It'd make far more sense if Sector 001 was on the 45 degree line of the alpha quadrant. That would make the Federation, Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians all firmly Alpha Quadrant powers, which is how the shows treated them.
I can only imagine it came from early human space exploration, establishing some sort of navigational meridian line from Sol to the middle of the galaxy, so it was easy to say if they were "east" or "west" of Earth. Basically, using Sol system as the equivalent of Greenwich, with the other dividing line marking Gamma and Delta being like the equator.
I only remember the Klingons and Romulans lumped in with the Alpha Quadrant during the Dominion war, which made sense as the Alpha Quadrant is where the near end of the wormhole lies. It's inaccurate, like talking about "the West" during the cold war (including Australia, Japan etc). It's a vague political grouping only loosely tied to geography.
@@smartalec2001This is a logical response, but I want the Beta Quadrant to be afar off from the Romulans. It’s almost never mentioned as being nearby in canon.
@@EpicEnterprisesLoganUtah Another example of this would be the episode Message in a Bottle from Voyager. Seven detects the Prometheus via the Hirogen network and explicitly describes it as being “in the alpha quadrant”. That effectively puts it deep inside federation territory but it’s the only ship in range of the network? That makes a lot more sense if the Prometheus is somewhere like the Shackleton Expanse, which would imply that even this far out area is still in the alpha quadrant.
28 дней назад+113
"There's a word for that - - Surrounded." - Captain Benjamin Lafayette Sisko. Maybe the Romulans have some legitimate beefs?
I always assumed the Romulans had to keep most of their fleet on the Federation and Klingon borders and lacked ships to expand. At least until the Dominion war.
I always did this in Star Trek Infinite. If you expand fast enough you can just border-lock someone in and cut off their resource access and growth and effectively stifle them into insignificance so you can either absorb them or swat them like a fly when the time comes. Makes sense the Romulans would see it this way.
I'd figure the Federation had colonies in the Galactic high-plane and the Romulans or Klingons in the center/lower plane of the galaxy and then the blue areas are again uncontested
I'm very interested in the individual states marked in yellow on the fringes of Klingon space. The Klingons have always tended to advance their boarders was by way of peaceful means; Eternal Peace for whomever gets in their way, that is. Anyone who can enforce a hard boarder with both the Empire and the Federation has to be very interesting.
Like the First Federation? If a single one of their gigantic ships (with an apparent crew of one!) could take the Enterprise-nil in tow with little effort, it could do the same to anyone else’s ships. I’ve always hoped for another appearance by them *in canon* but no luck so far.
I believe those are just nebulae - various nebulae are marked on that map with different colours, but they just say the nebula names, not the names of any civilizations or empires.
Love for you to do a follow-up video on the Shackleton Expanse! Also, the territories to the galactic south (read: rimward) of Sol are referred to in beta canon as the Taurus Reach.
Ive always head canoned that, kinda like how in real life flat projections of a round earth are heavily distorted, the Star Trek maps are also experiencing heavy distortions, and that some of the territories shown are actually above or below other powers. It might also explain how, for example, many "Alpha Quadrant" species arent depicted as being in the Alpha Quadrant. Maybe they are, just a 2-D map with the Federation, Romulans, and Klingons all ontop of each other would be hard to read.
@rumham8741 In fact earth and the Solar system is merely 50 light years above the 500 light year mark of the 1000 ly thickness, we're literally in the middle of the "vertical" axis
This is a great video. There's been a need for a little clarification after a lot of the things that have happened in the prime timeline. Examples: Dominion ships crossing over Romulan territory to shoot KDF/Starfleet ships, the actual size of the federation, some of the named systems that you included in this video already, etc. I am always trying to keep a good map in my mind when I re-watch old episodes, and so many of the maps you find online contradict each other. I'm also really interested in Starfleet's updated fleet post Dominion War. Is the Sovereign meant to be a direct successor to the Galaxy in terms of role? I know that's a muddled question, as Starfleet had to come to terms with the waning golden area of exploration and produce ships with far more advanced defensive capabilities. As such, the Sovereign can be seen a somewhat of a 'fast battleship,' but it also still contains all the science labs and sensors etc, that a deep space explorer would need. How does that compare to the Intrepid class, and was that ship updated in canon to a new variant? I know the Defiant, Akira, Steamrunner, and Norway were pure combat-focused, but there was the Luna and Nova. Is there a direct successor to the Oberth? I read somewhere that the Nova was short-range science, so is there anything really properly replacing the Oberth an an all-around science-focused vessel? Ok, I've let my inner nerd out here for far too long. But I would love to see a video or segment of one talking about it, if there hasn't been one already. Cheers!
In the 80s FASA game universe it was a unorganized triangle where piracy ruled, many skirmishes between UFP-Klingon/Romulans occured there... they never got to Cardassian or Borg stage (wish they didn't kill it as canon) but I think most maps now have it as UFP space... thanks for a great video.
AFAIK that area seems to only exist post-Khitomer. I believe that's relatively new territory settled after the Federation establishes good relations with the Klingons and that the Klingon Empire allows the Federation free and safe passage between Starbase 234 and Archer.
IIRC an episode in SNW S2 where the B plot revolves around securing an alliance with a minor power that exists in the corridor between the Klingons and the Romulans. With the Feds needing it to help strengthen their access to the worlds on the other side.
@@alvarosuegart6468 The issue with having things above or below another nation's territory is that, while space itself is 3 dimensional, the actual disk of the milky way is very thin, at only around 1000ly from "top" to "bottom" compared to its 100,000ly estimated diameter. You'd only really be able to have something like that in the galactic bulge (which appears to be inaccessible anyway due to a barrier) and the "halo" regions of the galaxy. As a result, on a galactic scale, 2D maps work fine for representing territory within the galactic disk on a large scale. 3D maps would only be needed for fine detail along borders as significant overlap is highly unlikely unless two nations have a peace agreement.
I found this synopsis, fascinating. I’ve been a trekker for over fifty years and I’d never realized this open zone. Thank you for reminding me that subscribing to your channel was one of my better ideas. I look forward to seeing more on this topic.
Looking at how far Earth is from Klingon space vs Romulan space just makes it even sillier that a Klingon somehow ended up on Earth by chance in the pilot of ST: Enterprise but it was many episodes before Romulans were ever encountered.
@@347Jimmy are you sure japan was not aware of indoesians? I mean japan did have a few wars in korea and they did have navel vessels. Of course just cause you are aware it dont mean you seek trade.
@@Marveryn the earliest known contact between the Japanese and Indonesians was in the 17th century, so as far as we know the Dutch travelled there first. But you raise an interesting point about awareness- the Japanese most likely were quite aware of Indonesia before they (or the Dutch) travelled there. Just applying this analogy to the Trek situation, the Romulans probably knew about us long before we ever met them.
The Milky Way galaxy is 100000 light years across but the galaxy is roughly 1,000 light-years thick. So, it’s very long but relatively thin so I’m thinking that the map could be more squishy and not like we see it on screen, perhaps.
Using Voyager speeds as an example, that’s still a year’s travel. The SS Valiant who headed straight up to the galactic edge took 4 years at, judging at the time period, somewhere between warp 5 and 6 speeds.
Keep in mind most of space is... well, empty space, or star systems without much of interest in them. So I generally figure various powers just claim individual systems, not big painted swaths on a map like this. You can draw in a map like this if you want as an overall approximation, but especially on the 'borders' I imagine you'd find plenty of systems that belong to the other side, all mixed and blended together. It's not like on Earth where you have clear geographical boundaries between countries.
I think the thing to remember is that interstellar polities aren’t actually solid object. It’s like a sponge and another sponge growing interweaved. Idk if “empty space is “within borders””
Don't forget that Terra Lysium is somewhere DEEP in the Beta Quadrant (well beyond the Shackleton Expanse), and somewhere out there lie the Fendomar (Janeway mentions them in Endgame).
I guess by their nature they expanse faster than the other powers. Instead of sending and army to a planet for a length conquest attempt. They send a few diplomats and get them to join the federation.
@@BartJBols they kind of are. I think it was Spacedock's channel that talked about how the federation pretty much forced the dominion war to happen. They were told to stay out of the gamma quadrant but they didn't, and made no attempt to stop anyone else
Fun tidbit about Seven Of Nine in Star Trek Fleet Command, one of her perks is an omage to Star Wars' This is where the fun begins. Of course the perk doesn't say that verbatim but that's what it heavily alludes to
I was excited when I saw this video and it’s a great video but one minor thing, in season 1 episode 5 of Star Trek: Strange New Worlds the R’ongovian Protectorate who are a species who live between the Romulan and Klingon empires was seeking to ally themselves with whoever could empathise with them, as it happened they allied themselves with the Federation to the point of raising the UFP flag on their Solar Sail ship, I’m not sure if they joined the federation but it might be that when the map was created in the 24th century that the R’ongovians had no alliance with the UFP and the space between the empires was not blue, denoting federation territory.
I've always wondered what kind of star systems might be found at the very edge of the galaxy's spiral. As a smattering of gravity-centric stars that's dense at the center and loose at the edges, I wonder how far removed from the galaxy a star might be but still be part of the spiral. A planet where the whole night sky is accretion disk on one side and blank nothingness on the other.
2 52...... It's funny you bring that up, traveling up and over. I don't think I've seen a space movie or show that allows ships to travel in all directions. Every ship seems to travel on a 2D plain, like they're still driving cars or sailing boats.
That area would make for a great place to set one end of an experimental transwarp corridor. It's so remote, it would benefit the most from a quick connection to the core systems. You'd ideally want to place the other end a couple sectors away from Earth and other major systems though, in case anything goes wrong or the gate is hijacked.
You know… Looking at that map just drives home how *nonsense* warp drive scaling is. Like, the Enterprise-D can be out there, exploring the frontier, and still somehow warp back to Earth in the space of, like, a few hours, in case of brain-hijacking parasites attempting a takeover or Wesley and his friends having a training accident. (In the latter case especially, there’s no way they would have delayed the inquiry for weeks or months for the Enterprise to make it. They would have just been told about the results after it was all over.) Kirk’s Enterprise could reach both the Galactic Barrier and the Great Barrier at the *center* of the galaxy. (Sure, the former would have to *completely* encase the galaxy, but Earth is nowhere near the galactic center. Unless Star Trek 5 is stricken from canon, I suppose…) Why was Voyager having so much trouble getting home? 😂
i mean, everything in Star Trek has a Narative Travel Time, even the Turbolifts, at least for the Galactic Barrier there is a good Head Canon Idea: they traveld up or down so not that hard for the Enterprise to do ... but only that they found a buoy from a ship that was launched 2 years after First Contact and with only able to travel at the speed of light it's quite ambitious project but well, SciFi in general could be improved a lot if authors have a better sence of scale
@@alanb8884 It was first _reached_ by the Enterprise in the second pilot episode "Where No Man Has Gone Before." That's why they knew about it, and were concerned about it in the episode you're referring to. I believe they also crossed it in the episode with the Medusan, and had trouble re-entering the galaxy.
Heh - I guess the main challenges Voyager faced were things like having no navigational charts of the area, no starbases to recharge ship power at or get spare parts and dilithium from, etc. Stuff that Ron D. Moore originally wanted to lean more into, with the ship gradually breaking down and needing jury rigging. Execs weren't keen. At least in coming to and from Federation space, Enterprise could make sure to be well stocked for a trip they knew they'd be taking, unlike Voyager. Moore'd take that idea of emphasising supply shortage and mechanical fatigue when he went on to make the Battlestar Galactica reboot.
It would have made so much more sense for Sol, Vulcan, Andoria, Romulus, and Qo'nos to be in the Alpha Quandrant, then going clockwise around the galaxy would be the Beta (Cardiassia, Bajor, etc), Gamma (where it is), and Delta (also where it is). That way you're going in alphabetical order for the Greek letters and lining things up with the descriptions of where the systems are as far as "Alpha Quadrant powers" are concerned.
Please please Do the Southern frontier video too! This was great! I've stared at the federation map for years and not really noticed the point you make!
Agreed. Space apartheid? I seem to recall something about the Klingons left non-Klingon subjects alone as long as they tithed and didn't object to resource extraction. 2nd class citizens, unimportant to politics.
they are from TOS - The Corbomite Maneuver i would guess they're some old Power that retreatet again from the Galaxy, like the Vorlons and others from Babylon 5
I think this whole area on this map is maybe about 2000 light years in diameter, maybe even less, im not sure, so for Voyager that distance is only a 2 year journey, considering they originally had decades to come back home, this area is just a small portion of both Alpha and Beta quadrant, the quadrants are so big, it would take years and definitely more than a decade for conventional warp drives to go across these distances
@@gate8475 Oh is it just a small part of the Alpha and beta? i see. It looks like its portraying the quadrants in full. Isn't Earth fairly far out on an arm in the milky way?
@@macfineYes, indeed, our system is located on one of the arms, one of many in our galaxy, ours is called the Orion arm; thats our neighbourhood, and its a pretty big neighbourhood, Solar system position is somewhat half way from the centre, little bit more; still, the galaxy is a pretty big place, so the area on this map is only a part of it, Federation and the rest of the gang are actually small comparing to Borg area for example, they stretch triple the size of federation if not even more, but that is before janeway destroyed them and reduced them, but anyway federation territory is large for the conventional warp drives, quantum slip stream would be better option when you have a large territory, thats what the Borg used to get around along with the conduits
I don’t remember the name of the novel but one of the destiny verse books mentioned that the failure to use the starbase at farpoint because it was a space dwelling life form, meant that federation attempts at exploration in the beta quadrant were stalled and with the return of the Romulans, the USS enterprise was pulled away from it mission of exploration to help defend the frontiers. I also think that the outer part of the Federation‘s presence in the beta quadrant is limited by the end of the Orion arm of the Galaxy. There may well be a large gap between galactic arms like the void in Voyager s5e1.
I like to imagine that the "Alpha/Beta" quadrant naming confusion comes down to a translation issue between some of the major powers of the area. Maybe the Vulcan alphabet is similar enough to the Human alphabet that they have an 'a' and a 'b' sound - but their alphabet has those letters in the opposite order. So if you're referring to the "first" quadrant in the list, a human might call it the Alpha quadrant, whereas a Vulcan might call if the "Beta" quadrant. The Romulans probably orchestrated this confusion in the first place by editing some well-place communiques in the early days of the Federation. And then you get the Klingons chiming into argue that the real delineation is between "subjugated space" and "yet-to-be-conquered space", and *of course* they're going to claim that their space covers most of (what they call) "Alpha space"...
I've always liked to think there's a natural barrier on the far side of klingon and romulan space, like the Nekrit expanse from Voyager, which keeps them pushing toward and into conflict with the federation
With territory on the far side of the Klingon and Romulan Empires, they probably have a negotiated corridor for trade and for Starfleet to post ships and stations in those areas. Or vessels passing through either government's territory may be granted limited diplomatic immunity for safe passage purposes. As for exploration, I can well imagine a Klingon ship happening on some anomaly, and the science officer on board simply recommends they call up the Federation for better analysis.
I watched a live-play of Star Trek Adventures where such a corridor, through Klingon space, was an important plot point. The USS Sally Ride (the players' ship) was flying through the corridor, on its way to the Shackleton Expanse, during the Klingon-Cardassian war. Specifically, they were about halfway through it when the Klingons declared war on the Federation. They spent three or four episodes of the live-play in Klingon territory, and it was great!
I think in Discovery they say that in the 30th century the federation covers most of the galaxy, but by the 32nd century it is down to just a handfull.
The Federation during the Lost Era expanded at an absolutely staggering rate. Its not hard to see why. Large stellar states joining them means they expand in leaps and bounds, often with pre built infrastructure.
When the gang down the road try to surround you, you don't react well, especially when the weirdo tries to get behind yer back, y'know him, Tomed... Tommy? anyway caused a bit of an incident. Was years ago. Anyway all this Hi Vi's these days, who needs streetlights. 😂
I always marvel at how big the federation actually is. Like, flying from one end to the other would take several years. From what we can deduce with Voyager needing over 70 yeasr for their roughly 70 000 lightyear long trip, we can roughly say that at constant achieveable warpspeed, a starfleet ship needs 1 year for 1000 lightyears. And yet here we see the Enterprise D hoping around a stretch of space that looks a lot bigger than just a mere 1000 lightyears, in time-spans that is surely not as long as several years. So the Enterprise D must have gone above their normal warpspeed quite a lot of times to swing by so many distant systems in that timeframe.
FASA had this area called the Triangle, I belive. Perhaps the maps of Fasa are not so much not canon as just very old, and the areas between Klingon and romulan space were not as close together. Just a notion as a map can change, depending mainly on War and Politics.
I would love a video that visually show how the borders have developed and changed from beginning of Earth exploration up til now. Also whats the unclaimed space on left of Federation borders ? Near Breen space.
I am preparing a fanfic which involves a large region of space on the far side of the Klingon Empire, which I take to mean directly below the right side the Klingon Empire as we see in this map, but still quite some distance from the Federation territory, down (as it were) from the blue as well as below the red. It is a very dangerous place so folks avoid it anyway.
It would be a interesting plotline in a future Star Trek television series or feature film if this area seceded from the Federation for a variety of reasons and how the Federation, a voluntary union of planets, dealt with it. Accept the secession of a disconnected territory or invade it.
I always assumed that this blob of space was connected underneath the klingon/romulan territory, it is absolutely clear toe how Territorial Empires could feel threatened by a multi species coalition that rapidly expands around them. In a weird TOS novel I red about the last Planet that wasn't part of any galactic power located between Fed, Klin and Rom space which made it the whole focus of that story because the Federation only could expand in that direction... I guess the Alpha Quadrant was considered complete 1st Federation space at that point or never crossed the mind of the writing person that such a wording is really 1-2 dimensional and space doesn't work that way.
When i see these galactic maps i always wonder how far the Romulans actually explored into the delta quadrant, Voyagers original route home would have cut straight through Romulan territory but we got the transwarp hub ending instead
Makes sense why the Romulans would partner with the Federation on the artifact. If there is a Borg presence in the beta quadrant (unexplored Romulan space). Wonder if there is a transwarp hub there?
Yeah I'd honestly take the map with a ton of salt. With how close Bajor is said to be to earth, soothing silly "small" like 50lys I can only really imagine the federation as a blobby sphere. And for the alpha/beta thing, I don't agree with Sol being the dividing line, but the mid line, with all the known powers being tiny and concentrated in an area the relative size of a pin point to the size of the galaxy.
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Starfleet's territorial policy can be summed up as "Space is full of really cool stuff that we want to see. We keep going in a given direction until we run into someone who punches us in the face for looking at 'their' stuff"
I immediately thought of Jadzia's awful line in 'The Jem'Hadar'.
A representative of the Dominion comes through the wormhole and says 'Stop violating our territory'. And she stupidly claps back with 'That won't stop us from exploring the Gamma Quadrant!'
@@Jokie155 Not exactly the smartest response from Jadzia, but fitting with Starfleet policy, and you have to remember that prior to that episode, the Dominion were mostly rumour. The Ferengi had managed to start trading with some of their subsidiaries, but no-one from our side had a clue how deep the rabbit hole went. Even later it was shown that it was still possible to go into the Gamma Quadrant and not be in Dominion space (go through the Wormhole and turn right? That's the Dominion. Turn left? That's not... yet)
That's basically every nation state's mantra to exploration.
@@markdavidson1049 replacing "see" with "own" as appropriate, but yeah
I always went with that that area is connected to the rest of the UFP, it’s just above and/or below the plane of the galaxy/what is represented on maps.
Yeh. I always find it weird that when a map is shown,.they use a 2D map to try and represent a 3D area. Also, considering the size of space (making your trip down to the corner shop looks like peanuts in comparison) I'd be surprised if the whole "everything in blue = federation and everything in red = Klingon etc. is more a fake projection Vs actual reality where the actual maps of blue, red, green etc. is a more more wiery as Klingon/federatin/romulan influence only extents to a number of systems within the coloured areas and a number of heavily chartered routes between them - so the enterprise D could explore "federation space" (according to the map) and still discover new species and civilisations because, well.....the maps aren't actually accurate.
Yeah people keep forgetting that space is 3D, there's probably parts of other territories that the UFP has surrounded over and/or under.
@@depreseoyeah it’s gonna be more like a sponge in the centre with strands reaching out, not just a blob.
@@depreseo Problems resulting from trying to represent 3D space in 2D are not new, look at any flat map of the Earth. (With flat Earth maps the biggest problem is coping with the fact that the Earth isn’t flat, of course.)
Anyway.
The fact that the galactic disk is about a thousand light years thick leaves lots of room for regions of space claimed by various powers to overlap as seen on such maps, but how would we represent that without requiring some sort of holographic technology? Lots of cross-section maps showing which power’s claimed territory overlaps which other power’s at various locations?
Something else I’ve never seen or heard addressed- the whole quadrant naming convention is an invention of the UFP. What conventions do the Klingons use? The Romulans? All the other powers? Is it common to all per some treaty we’ve never heard of, like the unspoken agreement that makes two ships from opposing powers always “right side up” when they randomly run into each other?
@@markfergerson2145the federations is more an exploratory body than either the klingons or romulans, so their maps would be larger and more detailed. Foreign powers would get a hold of these maps, either freely given, traded, or stolen, and would most likely base their own courses based on the same maps. That, and there would have to be some kind of agreeded upon mapping technique in order to properly show territories. And don't forget the god-magic that is the universal translator, it probably automatically changes everything over into the other side's map standard.
As far as the ship's orientation goes, that's just lazy writing that we're all supposed to ignore
i tend to assume that a lot of weirdness in "why is the federation that shape" or "why is the federation out there?" can be explained by the fact that the federation grows mainly by absorbing other polities in as new members. so that bit on the other side of the romulans? the territory of species/star-nations found by a starfleet ship mapping along the borders of romulan space, which decided to join the UFP for the socioeconomic and military advantages that brings.
UFP NATO
Yeah, but at the same time an unaligned system might be cought in the established rivalry of the Federation with one of their neighbours and because of their position far away from the center they will not profit from the Federations protection, in open out war might even be the first casualty.
Like when Bajor signed a neutrality treaty with the Dominion in the Eve of the Dominion war.
@@dawoifee
In those kinds of situations, if the planet or other polity is still in the application process, that application can be delayed until such a time as it's safe to do so - like with Bajor.
And this explains the hostility of modern romulans.
They feel fenced in and the only way to break out is a fight with the UFP because they will stick their nose in member or not as long as they are asked.
This contradicts apocrypha (and canon?) that the Romulans were fighting an all out war on their border opposite the Neutral Zone during the Federation's Golden Age.
And that's what kept them completely isolationist during that time.
They didn't want to stir the Federation or even let the Federation know they were vulnerable while they were in a total war of attrition. Once they destroyed the other power they were then free to concentrate on their Alpha rivals once again..... "We're back."
I know exactly what your talking about, it was either in a source book for a startrek adventure game or a novel. I can't really recall
It's been thought to be a thing at least since the Romulans 'reappeared' in early TNG. Their commander even implied they had been occupied with something like that or equally absorbing, that episode.
TOS Balance of Terror the Romulan commander also referred to military achievements in wars, but can't be with the Federation.....same enemy?
The UFP's local neighborhood is a fairly thick section of the Milky Way. The enemies could've been above or below the areas that Starfleet was exploring.
Except false. Part of the 3D border can still be opposite of the federation.
3:30 For pre warp politics, I will once again point to the North Sentinel Islands.
India claims the whole island chain as their own territory and controls access. If you want to go there, you have to ask them.
The inhabitants are pre-metallurgy and murderously isolationist. So they don't do diplomacy or seafaring. And they definitely do not consider themselves Indians or take part in the Indian government.
It is about as close to a "pre-warp" case as we can get on earth.
They met the British and it nearly cost them their existence. Frankly, it's a reasonable reaction.
@Silverhawk100 From what I see on Wikipedia, they already fled from or tried to murder everyone landing before even speaking with the british.
@@Silverhawk100eh no. If you know your history you would know that many societies were history xenophobic. The first U.S. contact with Koreans ended up with dead Americans for example.
They don't mind women visiting.
@@Ggdivhjkjl Yes, they do mind. They have not let anyone visit without incident for decades, particularly if the visits are by individuals or in small numbers.
It’s Space Alaska, obviously
On point!
@@alanb8884 thank you!
Trudeau is rather Romulanesque, I'll grant you that.
Starfleet maps much like chess should be Tridimensional meaning the Federation could border 2 places in the same place of a 2-dimensional map because the borders are at different levels, or they could control territory above or below another government's territory allowing them to pass to other areas of the quadrant.
Why? this doesn't make sense because the entire setting is in a galaxy, which while not completely flat, is a disk.
The entire point of border is to shows the area where the governing bodies exerts control. its both political AND military, in the case of Trek universe with warp drive, having a abnormal shaped border in the Y axis does nothing for anyone, because a small mistake or inaccuracy in jump just create political issues.
correct take
@@GIIToTIIG "Why? this doesn't make sense because the entire setting is in a galaxy, which while not completely flat, is a disk." Come on man, don't be obtuse - that "disk" is hundreds of light-years tall, and thus could easily accommodate what OP was saying.
@@GIIToTIIG You mean Z Axis, X and Y are what make a 2 dimensional image. It's a "disc" but it's about 1,000 Light Years thick out at the arms, and it's 2,600 Light Years thick towards the center. Sure that's a fraction of the radius that's about 50,000 Light Years, but it's far from nothing. 1,000 LY is plenty to go around another empire. I mean do you know how many star systems are within 1,000 LY of each other? A lot.
To you the galaxy is a disc, but to some alien it might be a wheel. X, Y, Z is relative to your perspective. If you can occupy a star system and go around, civilizations will. Not saying it's impossible to fully control a region, but space exists in three dimensions and it's weird you'd try to pretend otherwise. Space combat won't look like a WWII battle like Star Trek does either.
@@GIIToTIIG The galaxy is 1,000 light years deep at it's edges and 3,600 in the middle bulge. But you are also overlooking the fact the the galaxy itself is surrounded by space. They could simply leave the galaxy and re-enter it at some other point. This is why 2D maps don't work in a 3D environment. You cannot have a border if others can simply fly around it. It's like nations on earth only have jurisdiction 12 miles out from their coastline. The cannot own all of the ocean. The same applies with planets. Nobody can own all the space between the stars. How would you police it without absolutely huge fleets of ships? If I'm to believe Star Trek just about every bit of the Milky Way is part of some greater empire, union, confederation, etc etc all constantly pushing and shoving against each other. Yet the super advanced aliens only ever have one planet.
god i hate the destruction of Romulus so much.
It's been 15 years and I still don't consider it remotely canon.
I loved that movie but destroying the main rival was such a mistake
Destruction of Romulus, Destruction of Shady Sands (Fallout), Destruction of Courosaunt (Star Wars). Pattern recognition.
f the romulans
It's amazing how JJ Abrhams screwed up the continuity for both Star Wars and Star Trek.
I always felt like the dividing line between the alpha and beta quadrants running down the centre of the federation was kinda dumb because the whole alpha/beta quadrant divide functionally never comes up in the show. It'd make far more sense if Sector 001 was on the 45 degree line of the alpha quadrant. That would make the Federation, Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians all firmly Alpha Quadrant powers, which is how the shows treated them.
I can only imagine it came from early human space exploration, establishing some sort of navigational meridian line from Sol to the middle of the galaxy, so it was easy to say if they were "east" or "west" of Earth. Basically, using Sol system as the equivalent of Greenwich, with the other dividing line marking Gamma and Delta being like the equator.
I only remember the Klingons and Romulans lumped in with the Alpha Quadrant during the Dominion war, which made sense as the Alpha Quadrant is where the near end of the wormhole lies. It's inaccurate, like talking about "the West" during the cold war (including Australia, Japan etc). It's a vague political grouping only loosely tied to geography.
Exactly! This may be my greatest beef with the STO universe. It’s not canon that the Alpha Quadrant has anything to do with the Beta Quadrant.
@@smartalec2001This is a logical response, but I want the Beta Quadrant to be afar off from the Romulans. It’s almost never mentioned as being nearby in canon.
@@EpicEnterprisesLoganUtah Another example of this would be the episode Message in a Bottle from Voyager. Seven detects the Prometheus via the Hirogen network and explicitly describes it as being “in the alpha quadrant”. That effectively puts it deep inside federation territory but it’s the only ship in range of the network? That makes a lot more sense if the Prometheus is somewhere like the Shackleton Expanse, which would imply that even this far out area is still in the alpha quadrant.
"There's a word for that - - Surrounded." - Captain Benjamin Lafayette Sisko. Maybe the Romulans have some legitimate beefs?
It's should be a 3D map. The Romulans have plenty of corridors to other space.
I always assumed the Romulans had to keep most of their fleet on the Federation and Klingon borders and lacked ships to expand. At least until the Dominion war.
I always did this in Star Trek Infinite. If you expand fast enough you can just border-lock someone in and cut off their resource access and growth and effectively stifle them into insignificance so you can either absorb them or swat them like a fly when the time comes. Makes sense the Romulans would see it this way.
@@rumrunner8019
Doesn't _quite_ work that way. People forget that while space is 3D, the Milky Way galaxy is a thin disk.
OMG that is a question that gets stuck in my mind whenever I see a map of the Star Trek galaxy. This video is a godsend!
No, it's a Ricsend.
This is nothing special at all, simply think 3D instead of 2D.
I'd figure the Federation had colonies in the Galactic high-plane and the Romulans or Klingons in the center/lower plane of the galaxy and then the blue areas are again uncontested
It should be canon that you're doing these briefings for Starfleet training videos XD
I feel privileged, then,to be getting my hands on them as a Terran. Too much Intel never hurt anyone... that held onto it.
Adm. Mark Hale's Starfleet cadet primers
Bonus points for the citation of the cat from red dwarf.
I'm very interested in the individual states marked in yellow on the fringes of Klingon space. The Klingons have always tended to advance their boarders was by way of peaceful means; Eternal Peace for whomever gets in their way, that is. Anyone who can enforce a hard boarder with both the Empire and the Federation has to be very interesting.
I’d like a few series of Star Trek focusing on non-Starfleet factions and individuals.
Like the First Federation? If a single one of their gigantic ships (with an apparent crew of one!) could take the Enterprise-nil in tow with little effort, it could do the same to anyone else’s ships.
I’ve always hoped for another appearance by them *in canon* but no luck so far.
I believe those are just nebulae - various nebulae are marked on that map with different colours, but they just say the nebula names, not the names of any civilizations or empires.
Loved that quote, they extend their empire through peaceful mean...eternal peace...
Those are just nebula, not territories
The Terran Empire is assimilating more worlds!
All hail the Empire!
@@prof.badfellow9868 The Galactic Empire???…..lol just kidding
@@zazaranger5 Hmmmmm... your comments are suspiciously non-Terran in nature. Are you sure you're an Earther?
Love for you to do a follow-up video on the Shackleton Expanse!
Also, the territories to the galactic south (read: rimward) of Sol are referred to in beta canon as the Taurus Reach.
Ive always head canoned that, kinda like how in real life flat projections of a round earth are heavily distorted, the Star Trek maps are also experiencing heavy distortions, and that some of the territories shown are actually above or below other powers. It might also explain how, for example, many "Alpha Quadrant" species arent depicted as being in the Alpha Quadrant. Maybe they are, just a 2-D map with the Federation, Romulans, and Klingons all ontop of each other would be hard to read.
Fun fact: The Milky Way's average thickness in comparison to its total area is thinner than a sheet of notebook paper.
@@Unpainted_Huffhines Fun fact: Star Trek isnt real
@@dansparce Funner fact: what I said has nothing to do with Star Trek.
@rumham8741 In fact earth and the Solar system is merely 50 light years above the 500 light year mark of the 1000 ly thickness, we're literally in the middle of the "vertical" axis
I guess that sort of region was where Sulu on the excelsior was charting gaseous anomalies in beta Quadrant for 3 years
This is a great video. There's been a need for a little clarification after a lot of the things that have happened in the prime timeline. Examples: Dominion ships crossing over Romulan territory to shoot KDF/Starfleet ships, the actual size of the federation, some of the named systems that you included in this video already, etc. I am always trying to keep a good map in my mind when I re-watch old episodes, and so many of the maps you find online contradict each other.
I'm also really interested in Starfleet's updated fleet post Dominion War. Is the Sovereign meant to be a direct successor to the Galaxy in terms of role? I know that's a muddled question, as Starfleet had to come to terms with the waning golden area of exploration and produce ships with far more advanced defensive capabilities. As such, the Sovereign can be seen a somewhat of a 'fast battleship,' but it also still contains all the science labs and sensors etc, that a deep space explorer would need. How does that compare to the Intrepid class, and was that ship updated in canon to a new variant? I know the Defiant, Akira, Steamrunner, and Norway were pure combat-focused, but there was the Luna and Nova. Is there a direct successor to the Oberth? I read somewhere that the Nova was short-range science, so is there anything really properly replacing the Oberth an an all-around science-focused vessel?
Ok, I've let my inner nerd out here for far too long. But I would love to see a video or segment of one talking about it, if there hasn't been one already. Cheers!
Would be really nice to see someone try to create a 3D map of Star Trek's claimed space.
In the 80s FASA game universe it was a unorganized triangle where piracy ruled, many skirmishes between UFP-Klingon/Romulans occured there... they never got to Cardassian or Borg stage (wish they didn't kill it as canon) but I think most maps now have it as UFP space... thanks for a great video.
I built several campaigns in The Triangle, based out of Starbase 10 for ST:RPG.
AFAIK that area seems to only exist post-Khitomer. I believe that's relatively new territory settled after the Federation establishes good relations with the Klingons and that the Klingon Empire allows the Federation free and safe passage between Starbase 234 and Archer.
IIRC an episode in SNW S2 where the B plot revolves around securing an alliance with a minor power that exists in the corridor between the Klingons and the Romulans. With the Feds needing it to help strengthen their access to the worlds on the other side.
It may be possible that the area at the time was very small and was under or above Klingon or romulans territory so it wouldn't appear in most maps
@@alvarosuegart6468
The issue with having things above or below another nation's territory is that, while space itself is 3 dimensional, the actual disk of the milky way is very thin, at only around 1000ly from "top" to "bottom" compared to its 100,000ly estimated diameter. You'd only really be able to have something like that in the galactic bulge (which appears to be inaccessible anyway due to a barrier) and the "halo" regions of the galaxy.
As a result, on a galactic scale, 2D maps work fine for representing territory within the galactic disk on a large scale. 3D maps would only be needed for fine detail along borders as significant overlap is highly unlikely unless two nations have a peace agreement.
I found this synopsis, fascinating. I’ve been a trekker for over fifty years and I’d never realized this open zone. Thank you for reminding me that subscribing to your channel was one of my better ideas. I look forward to seeing more on this topic.
Ya, that is what I always assumed. That we were viewing a 2D representation of a 3D world. So there was just stuff behind that linked it.
2:51 The Mario jumping sound made me smile. :)
Good catch, I missed that!
Looking at how far Earth is from Klingon space vs Romulan space just makes it even sillier that a Klingon somehow ended up on Earth by chance in the pilot of ST: Enterprise but it was many episodes before Romulans were ever encountered.
Skulking about is very time-consuming, especially when done effectively in the Romulan fashion.
I have taken it on faith. And if you call original cannon the romulans did not have warp drive. So it makes everything very interesting
Dutch explorers met the Indonesians long before the isolationist Japanese, and those Dutch guys had to go around Africa to get there 🤷🏻♂️
@@347Jimmy are you sure japan was not aware of indoesians? I mean japan did have a few wars in korea and they did have navel vessels. Of course just cause you are aware it dont mean you seek trade.
@@Marveryn the earliest known contact between the Japanese and Indonesians was in the 17th century, so as far as we know the Dutch travelled there first.
But you raise an interesting point about awareness- the Japanese most likely were quite aware of Indonesia before they (or the Dutch) travelled there.
Just applying this analogy to the Trek situation, the Romulans probably knew about us long before we ever met them.
That part of the Map is in fact a different colour to Federation territory, it's just that Hoomin eyes aren't sensitive enough to discern that.
The Milky Way galaxy is 100000 light years across but the galaxy is roughly 1,000 light-years thick. So, it’s very long but relatively thin so I’m thinking that the map could be more squishy and not like we see it on screen, perhaps.
Using Voyager speeds as an example, that’s still a year’s travel. The SS Valiant who headed straight up to the galactic edge took 4 years at, judging at the time period, somewhere between warp 5 and 6 speeds.
Keep in mind most of space is... well, empty space, or star systems without much of interest in them. So I generally figure various powers just claim individual systems, not big painted swaths on a map like this. You can draw in a map like this if you want as an overall approximation, but especially on the 'borders' I imagine you'd find plenty of systems that belong to the other side, all mixed and blended together. It's not like on Earth where you have clear geographical boundaries between countries.
I think the thing to remember is that interstellar polities aren’t actually solid object. It’s like a sponge and another sponge growing interweaved. Idk if “empty space is “within borders””
Don't forget that Terra Lysium is somewhere DEEP in the Beta Quadrant (well beyond the Shackleton Expanse), and somewhere out there lie the Fendomar (Janeway mentions them in Endgame).
2 01..... "The Devron System, Will. We have to go to the Devron System." I don't know why this map made me think of that episode, but it did.
Random Red Dwarf reference!
these kinds of maps certainly make the UFP look like grabby aliens.
We are grabby aliens. If Humans had FTL travel, we'd have claimed lots of territory.
I guess by their nature they expanse faster than the other powers. Instead of sending and army to a planet for a length conquest attempt. They send a few diplomats and get them to join the federation.
@@BartJBols they kind of are. I think it was Spacedock's channel that talked about how the federation pretty much forced the dominion war to happen. They were told to stay out of the gamma quadrant but they didn't, and made no attempt to stop anyone else
Fun tidbit about Seven Of Nine in Star Trek Fleet Command, one of her perks is an omage to Star Wars' This is where the fun begins. Of course the perk doesn't say that verbatim but that's what it heavily alludes to
It’s already strange enough that the territories don’t overlap in such a top-down view, what with the universe not being a flat plane and all.
I always love this part of federation space and just thought it was a side Branche of of the Federation. I like having more little stories from afar.
I believe we are seeing an attempt to express a 3 dimensional map displayed in 2 dimensional view.
Love the stellar cartography editions!!
3:08 random cat sighting!
I was excited when I saw this video and it’s a great video but one minor thing, in season 1 episode 5 of Star Trek: Strange New Worlds the R’ongovian Protectorate who are a species who live between the Romulan and Klingon empires was seeking to ally themselves with whoever could empathise with them, as it happened they allied themselves with the Federation to the point of raising the UFP flag on their Solar Sail ship, I’m not sure if they joined the federation but it might be that when the map was created in the 24th century that the R’ongovians had no alliance with the UFP and the space between the empires was not blue, denoting federation territory.
I've always wondered what kind of star systems might be found at the very edge of the galaxy's spiral. As a smattering of gravity-centric stars that's dense at the center and loose at the edges, I wonder how far removed from the galaxy a star might be but still be part of the spiral. A planet where the whole night sky is accretion disk on one side and blank nothingness on the other.
Im all in favor of as many of these map videos as possible, sir!
2 52...... It's funny you bring that up, traveling up and over. I don't think I've seen a space movie or show that allows ships to travel in all directions. Every ship seems to travel on a 2D plain, like they're still driving cars or sailing boats.
Love this one, exploration of the further reaches of the galaxy is great.
What a great video. This is your best one yet.
Love this video. Yes please to more on the explored part of southern galactic space!
That area would make for a great place to set one end of an experimental transwarp corridor. It's so remote, it would benefit the most from a quick connection to the core systems. You'd ideally want to place the other end a couple sectors away from Earth and other major systems though, in case anything goes wrong or the gate is hijacked.
Right off the bat, a montage of colorful maps.
Loved this and i would definitely enjoy seeing a video on the rimward un explored territory.
You know… Looking at that map just drives home how *nonsense* warp drive scaling is. Like, the Enterprise-D can be out there, exploring the frontier, and still somehow warp back to Earth in the space of, like, a few hours, in case of brain-hijacking parasites attempting a takeover or Wesley and his friends having a training accident. (In the latter case especially, there’s no way they would have delayed the inquiry for weeks or months for the Enterprise to make it. They would have just been told about the results after it was all over.) Kirk’s Enterprise could reach both the Galactic Barrier and the Great Barrier at the *center* of the galaxy. (Sure, the former would have to *completely* encase the galaxy, but Earth is nowhere near the galactic center. Unless Star Trek 5 is stricken from canon, I suppose…) Why was Voyager having so much trouble getting home? 😂
Because all star ships can travel at plot warp speed when they need to.
i mean, everything in Star Trek has a Narative Travel Time, even the Turbolifts, at least for the Galactic Barrier there is a good Head Canon Idea: they traveld up or down so not that hard for the Enterprise to do ... but only that they found a buoy from a ship that was launched 2 years after First Contact and with only able to travel at the speed of light it's quite ambitious project
but well, SciFi in general could be improved a lot if authors have a better sence of scale
The Galactic Barrier was breached using tech upgrades from Andromeda Galaxy aliens creating ridiculously high speeds (Warp 15 if I recall).
@@alanb8884 It was first _reached_ by the Enterprise in the second pilot episode "Where No Man Has Gone Before." That's why they knew about it, and were concerned about it in the episode you're referring to. I believe they also crossed it in the episode with the Medusan, and had trouble re-entering the galaxy.
Heh - I guess the main challenges Voyager faced were things like having no navigational charts of the area, no starbases to recharge ship power at or get spare parts and dilithium from, etc. Stuff that Ron D. Moore originally wanted to lean more into, with the ship gradually breaking down and needing jury rigging. Execs weren't keen. At least in coming to and from Federation space, Enterprise could make sure to be well stocked for a trip they knew they'd be taking, unlike Voyager.
Moore'd take that idea of emphasising supply shortage and mechanical fatigue when he went on to make the Battlestar Galactica reboot.
Very awesome job on this. I always enjoy your videos.
Love this map talk. Would be cool for ya to do points of interests in different sectors.
Ty for the video and LLAP!
It would have made so much more sense for Sol, Vulcan, Andoria, Romulus, and Qo'nos to be in the Alpha Quandrant, then going clockwise around the galaxy would be the Beta (Cardiassia, Bajor, etc), Gamma (where it is), and Delta (also where it is). That way you're going in alphabetical order for the Greek letters and lining things up with the descriptions of where the systems are as far as "Alpha Quadrant powers" are concerned.
Please please Do the Southern frontier video too! This was great! I've stared at the federation map for years and not really noticed the point you make!
always such fantastic videos
Please more of that! I love such stuff!
Drives me crazy we don’t see any of the conquered aliens in the Romulan, Klingon and Cardassia empires.
Agreed. Space apartheid? I seem to recall something about the Klingons left non-Klingon subjects alone as long as they tithed and didn't object to resource extraction. 2nd class citizens, unimportant to politics.
Ahhhh, I see what you did there! "Sovereignty" and then you show a Sovereign-class ship. I get it.
Nice video. Hope you feel better soon!😉👍✨
People always forget about the 3D nature of space.
Great video!
Could you do a video about this "Diminutive but powerful" first Federation? Never heard of it before and i'm interested!
TOS, the corbanite maneuver. Great episode, with a special guest appearance
they are from TOS - The Corbomite Maneuver
i would guess they're some old Power that retreatet again from the Galaxy, like the Vorlons and others from Babylon 5
Definitely worth watching "The Corbomite Maneuver." We know so little about them, but they seem really cool!
I feel like the trip out to veridian from earth should take a sizable % of the time it was to take voyager get home..
I think this whole area on this map is maybe about 2000 light years in diameter, maybe even less, im not sure, so for Voyager that distance is only a 2 year journey, considering they originally had decades to come back home, this area is just a small portion of both Alpha and Beta quadrant, the quadrants are so big, it would take years and definitely more than a decade for conventional warp drives to go across these distances
@@gate8475 Oh is it just a small part of the Alpha and beta? i see. It looks like its portraying the quadrants in full. Isn't Earth fairly far out on an arm in the milky way?
@@macfineYes, indeed, our system is located on one of the arms, one of many in our galaxy, ours is called the Orion arm; thats our neighbourhood, and its a pretty big neighbourhood, Solar system position is somewhat half way from the centre, little bit more; still, the galaxy is a pretty big place, so the area on this map is only a part of it, Federation and the rest of the gang are actually small comparing to Borg area for example, they stretch triple the size of federation if not even more, but that is before janeway destroyed them and reduced them, but anyway federation territory is large for the conventional warp drives, quantum slip stream would be better option when you have a large territory, thats what the Borg used to get around along with the conduits
I like that you said they can go up and over to get to a different location. There is only so much of claimed space.
I really liked this one. I love maps in general.
While on the map it seems isolated, it's a 2d map of 3d space, which could easily have other things there that wouldn't be seen
I don’t remember the name of the novel but one of the destiny verse books mentioned that the failure to use the starbase at farpoint because it was a space dwelling life form, meant that federation attempts at exploration in the beta quadrant were stalled and with the return of the Romulans, the USS enterprise was pulled away from it mission of exploration to help defend the frontiers.
I also think that the outer part of the Federation‘s presence in the beta quadrant is limited by the end of the Orion arm of the Galaxy. There may well be a large gap between galactic arms like the void in Voyager s5e1.
That's good sciencing!
Hope you feel better soon, Ric!
I always thought that after the Dominion War federation and Klingon would have more solid alliance and trade more and explore and share notes😅
I 100% noticed this and do love maps
Ah yes the bountiful ancestral hunting grounds of the Excelsior Class.
Ive been waiting for this answer for long time
I like to imagine that the "Alpha/Beta" quadrant naming confusion comes down to a translation issue between some of the major powers of the area.
Maybe the Vulcan alphabet is similar enough to the Human alphabet that they have an 'a' and a 'b' sound - but their alphabet has those letters in the opposite order. So if you're referring to the "first" quadrant in the list, a human might call it the Alpha quadrant, whereas a Vulcan might call if the "Beta" quadrant. The Romulans probably orchestrated this confusion in the first place by editing some well-place communiques in the early days of the Federation.
And then you get the Klingons chiming into argue that the real delineation is between "subjugated space" and "yet-to-be-conquered space", and *of course* they're going to claim that their space covers most of (what they call) "Alpha space"...
I've always liked to think there's a natural barrier on the far side of klingon and romulan space, like the Nekrit expanse from Voyager, which keeps them pushing toward and into conflict with the federation
With territory on the far side of the Klingon and Romulan Empires, they probably have a negotiated corridor for trade and for Starfleet to post ships and stations in those areas. Or vessels passing through either government's territory may be granted limited diplomatic immunity for safe passage purposes.
As for exploration, I can well imagine a Klingon ship happening on some anomaly, and the science officer on board simply recommends they call up the Federation for better analysis.
Nice world-building. Especially when one race has to police an entire empire.
In theory, the UFP is a joint effort.
I watched a live-play of Star Trek Adventures where such a corridor, through Klingon space, was an important plot point. The USS Sally Ride (the players' ship) was flying through the corridor, on its way to the Shackleton Expanse, during the Klingon-Cardassian war. Specifically, they were about halfway through it when the Klingons declared war on the Federation. They spent three or four episodes of the live-play in Klingon territory, and it was great!
Same for star trek Fleet command... Part of Federation space out in the middle of alone in space aka lost in space! lol
Wonder what the maps look like between the 31st to 32nd centuries?
I think in Discovery they say that in the 30th century the federation covers most of the galaxy, but by the 32nd century it is down to just a handfull.
i always wounderd what was going on there good video
Thank you!
The Federation during the Lost Era expanded at an absolutely staggering rate. Its not hard to see why. Large stellar states joining them means they expand in leaps and bounds, often with pre built infrastructure.
When the gang down the road try to surround you, you don't react well, especially when the weirdo tries to get behind yer back, y'know him, Tomed...
Tommy? anyway caused a bit of an incident.
Was years ago. Anyway all this Hi Vi's these days, who needs streetlights. 😂
I always marvel at how big the federation actually is. Like, flying from one end to the other would take several years. From what we can deduce with Voyager needing over 70 yeasr for their roughly 70 000 lightyear long trip, we can roughly say that at constant achieveable warpspeed, a starfleet ship needs 1 year for 1000 lightyears. And yet here we see the Enterprise D hoping around a stretch of space that looks a lot bigger than just a mere 1000 lightyears, in time-spans that is surely not as long as several years. So the Enterprise D must have gone above their normal warpspeed quite a lot of times to swing by so many distant systems in that timeframe.
Ive always imagined the federation to be twice the size of the Romulans and Kingons combined. And without strange maps.
FASA had this area called the Triangle, I belive. Perhaps the maps of Fasa are not so much not canon as just very old, and the areas between Klingon and romulan space were not as close together. Just a notion as a map can change, depending mainly on War and Politics.
I would love a video that visually show how the borders have developed and changed from beginning of Earth exploration up til now.
Also whats the unclaimed space on left of Federation borders ? Near Breen space.
Can you 🙏 🙏 🙏 🙏 do more Star Trek map videos
This was sweet.
I am preparing a fanfic which involves a large region of space on the far side of the Klingon Empire, which I take to mean directly below the right side the Klingon Empire as we see in this map, but still quite some distance from the Federation territory, down (as it were) from the blue as well as below the red. It is a very dangerous place so folks avoid it anyway.
Might as well do an episode covering the entire map. I don't think anyone would say no to that lol.
I dig the outro music
Starfleet "Finders Keepers" Protocol is a core principle
It would be a interesting plotline in a future Star Trek television series or feature film if this area seceded from the Federation for a variety of reasons and how the Federation, a voluntary union of planets, dealt with it. Accept the secession of a disconnected territory or invade it.
I always assumed that this blob of space was connected underneath the klingon/romulan territory, it is absolutely clear toe how Territorial Empires could feel threatened by a multi species coalition that rapidly expands around them. In a weird TOS novel I red about the last Planet that wasn't part of any galactic power located between Fed, Klin and Rom space which made it the whole focus of that story because the Federation only could expand in that direction... I guess the Alpha Quadrant was considered complete 1st Federation space at that point or never crossed the mind of the writing person that such a wording is really 1-2 dimensional and space doesn't work that way.
When i see these galactic maps i always wonder how far the Romulans actually explored into the delta quadrant, Voyagers original route home would have cut straight through Romulan territory but we got the transwarp hub ending instead
Makes sense why the Romulans would partner with the Federation on the artifact. If there is a Borg presence in the beta quadrant (unexplored Romulan space). Wonder if there is a transwarp hub there?
Yeah I'd honestly take the map with a ton of salt.
With how close Bajor is said to be to earth, soothing silly "small" like 50lys I can only really imagine the federation as a blobby sphere.
And for the alpha/beta thing, I don't agree with Sol being the dividing line, but the mid line, with all the known powers being tiny and concentrated in an area the relative size of a pin point to the size of the galaxy.
I usually refer to what you call "Galactic South" as Rimward as opposed to Coreward and west and east as Spinward and Anti-spinward respectively.
a 2d map is really outdated considering the galaxy is 3d
3:26 "each member maintains their sovereignty" *shows Sovereign class starship* Lol