just an example on how gender bias can swing both ways (and how much this is an actual thing): In Norway girls are starting to consistently do better, and we see the performance gap increase as the child goes from primary to secondary school and then to high school. The boys that are low performing are also consistently told by teachers that they are "trouble makers" and "have issues with focusing" etc etc, and are often called "the school losers" by the time they reach high school (many of these drop out of high school before graduating). However; on national tests were students are anonymous and graded by a third party (and done on computers so hand writing does not hint to any gender) the results are equal: boys and girls tend to score fairly similar (to the extent that there is no gender gap when you account for several years of results). So the only reason boys perform worse in school seems to be the gender bias against them being "troublesome" by the teacher to the point were they themselves just accept that they are "school losers". This is an example that strenghtens Devin's claim that "hey, if you're consistently told by everyone around you that you are shit, you tend to perform and think of yourself as shit"
@Daniele Esposito Numbers for 2019 show that for every age group between 25 and 65 there are a higher percentage of the women (in Norway) with a higher degree (Bachelor and above) than amongst men (I believe the overall gender distribution is slightly in favor of men in Norway than females, but only by a few percentage points). My point was even before they start on higher education though. Of people dropping out of school before finishing high school the boys are in the majority. Overall grades in secondary and high school favor girls when graded by their own teacher, though the gender gap dissapears on national tests where answers are written on computers and a third party grades you. It was to bring out more points that that there can be a huge difference in performance when you remove someone telling you that you are bad and letting people compete on a similar playing field. I want to emphasize though, this isn't an attempt to say "boohoo poor boys being stepped on by the oppressive system". Despite these numbers, Norway has same statistics as other countries on the other end: There are more men in high positions, in positions of power and topping the statistics of income. Overall gender gaps are skewed in favor of white men with well educated parents.
and why are men more 'troublesome' in schools? because men are less compliant than VVomen who are naturally followers... Again why? because men think more creatively, they think outside the box, break rules they don't agree with.
@@anab0lic now this iis getting a loong time ago since I read up on these studies, but if I remember correctly: First, this is perceived troublesomeness (if that is a word), so the studu never said that "boys are as a fact worse than girls", this is all statisticly based looking at averages (recognizing that there is a big spectrum here). But iirc it stated that statistically boys tend to be louder and take more space, this leads to boys more often interrupting the class or students. They tend to be in more open conflict with each other causing teachers to see it more often. They also (again, statistically) are more likely to challenge authority. This gives the impression to the teachers that there are more boys are troublesome than girls. This is, again, according to that study which based itself on averages and statistics acknowledging that there are tons of individual differences
It depends on the game, and the genre. There ARE biological differences between men and women. Once such difference between biological men and biological women is reaction time. Biological men, on average have faster reaction times than biological women to visual triggers, and to auditory triggers biological women on average are still slower than biological men, but it's slightly less of a gap than visual reaction times. There are games and genres that reaction time is a HUGE factor in performing well - this difference is most prominent in certain genres that require on having faster reaction times, like FPS, and RTS games. There are many studies you can look up about reaction time, but yea, in games where reacting faster, and milliseconds will make or break the match, even at the tippy-top of players, biological women on average will underperform in these types of games compared to the tippy-top of biological men. If this CSGO women's league allows transwomen to participate against biological women, I have little to no doubt, that those born biologically male (even after fully transitioning) will, on average, out-perform those who are biologically female. There are some things that are engrained in our biology, whether it be male or female; things like reaction time, speed, strength, bone density, etc. In some games/genres the differences between the biological sexes will have more of an impact. There are always going to be outliers, of course, and anyone can work hard to improve their own personal skills, but averages still exist. Yes, women can work harder to improve reaction times, and can absolutely become better than the average male player, but so can men who want to work hard at it also, and like I said, at the tippy-top of a competitive game's scene where milliseconds (CSGO, Volarant, SC2, etc.) matter, biological men will almost always perform better than biological women.
I agree 100%. There are still women that are able to perform at the top of esports (geguri from overwatch), but achieving top .0001% skill level in fast paced games when at a reaction time disadvantage is simply harder.
You are mentionning the studies about pentarflexion moments which were (fortunalety) debunked: those studies were not properly using the groups, no proper analysis and overall lack of scientifically accurate analysis. Try again
@Daniele Esposito yup and the article I found matching this is having incredibly low numbers even as a meta. Also funny to see that lots of its sources are statements and books, not that many studies... well at least there are some stud... damn 1974 qnd most of them rule out the cultural effects without even trying to test those. Well... this is not very shiny given the way things evolved to actually control and measure. Please remove dust from your sources, look into which ones are actually following the scientific method and then you'll be good. But for now at least, it follows the old rule of 75 yo 95 of wrong studies when it comes to cogscience
@Daniele Esposito it's my field of expertise... I know too well how biased and flawed those are and fighting against this takes time but they are more and more acknowledge as insuficient. Overall cogscience is moving from its past of pseudo science to something more like we find in the hard science 😉
@Daniele Esposito you're wrong if your only arguments are that I need to provide counter arguments: since their sources are already ruled out, the methodology doesn't require anything at all. This is something people often get wrong. The legitimacy of their claim is only valid as long as it lasted. However... it didn't last as those bio and cog studies were for most of them debunked (from their content to uow they were performed) years ago. Even when I was preparing my PhD it was often a source of laughable comments in the teams about how those were in their time trying to found the most spectacular findings even if it was with either too tiny groups, unsuficient data, and too often rushed. Not even ralking about lack of replicability when (few) teams attempted to. That's why it's cool to see that for like 10 years, CS (just to mention this field) is trying to clean up its mess. More and more studies are pushing toward cross-fields. "You have accused me to have published"... no, I stated that the excerpt and sources are. This is different, I couldn't care less about you, I'm focusing on what is said ; not the messenger
You changed my mind about this subject. I was of the opinion that if women are as good as men they didn't need their own league because it would come across as exclusionary, but your point on representation leading to more participation makes a lot of sense and resonates with a lot of (anecdotal) evidence i've heard before. That being said, at least one of the papers you talked about is not compeling at all: a sample size of 57 women is not statistically significant. I don't think this invalidates your point as the paper talks about hours played and not about representation, which I think is the more important point to increase participation of women in gaming, along with reducing arrassment online. Let me just make a point about women in STEM: My country (I'm not american) has a equal number of women in stem than men. However, there is still a lot of self segregation because men tend to go for engineering and women for bio/chem fields. So, just because there are more women, doesn't mean that the genders will be equally represented in every area. Edit: turns out the number of men and women in stem in my country is about the same as of jan/2021, according to eurostat. I initially wrote the number of women was higher.
Small sample studies can definitely be used especially if it’s a recent area of research, especially if there isnt much contradicting evidence. Big studies are normally conducted because of evidence in small studies, and small studies are often referenced. I definitely agree what you said about STEM, not knowing which country you’re in im assuming the ‘leaky pipe’ is still a problem and private vs public employment. The STEM arguments in America are always very surface level. reaching a political aim doesn’t result in improving the underlaying problem. Im also confused why Devin’s stem argument is that now its fixed because women see women in the job. When the biggest barrier to women in stem has always been the glass ceiling, women have always been ambitious but been blocked. Women in stem has meant some barriers have been removed because women removed them. Theres still pay issues and maternity issues etc, and intersectional gender issues etc. im also not in America and the American gaze of everything is very frustrating because it often doesn’t recognise problems even within America but particularly between, esports and women is a global issue so needs a global len. P.s women not doing something because men are mean is always funny to me. When oppressed groups have always fought back meanness but its the systemic structure which stops them
Separate leagues for sports that are not physical only hurts women by fully admitting that they are inherently terrible. There are many rules outlawing harassment in pro play and if they can't win the respect of the community that's on them
comparing progress in an mmo isnt really useful, as More Time = More Progress. then you try to say "its all equal if you ignore time spent". "mmo leveling progress" isnt skill. a braindead potato can level up in an mmo given enough time. Overwatch's PLAYTIME "level up" borders are not the same as actual earned COMPETITIVE rankings. "but ive played the game for 100 hours, im probably top500 in the world, i should rank up any moment now" -person stuck in bronze
Likewise exp in world of tanks is equally useless. There are also many studies that would indicate there is a strong preference towards males at the top end of esports, as the key physical performance metric will be reaction time which favours men heavily. That doesnt undercut the message of this video, but starting from a lie is aiming to fail.
I don’t necessarily disagree with the women in gaming houses ruining competitive integrity angle. When I used to play overwatch competitively, as soon as I would hear a female talk on the mic I knew the game was likely over. What I found was that even if the girl was an insanely good player, the other 4 men on the team wouldn’t focus on the game, instead they would either focus on there being a girl in the game, or try to get her info or flirt with her. They would also not want to seem “try hard” and be wierd and pretend to have fun losing etc. Basicly when you incorporate a female into a male competitive scene, the integrity is gone because most gamer men are virgins in basements that have more incentive to try to mate with the female rather than focus on the game. It’s not an issue of genders in gaming it’s an issue of biological drive to mate, and I always hated those games because I would see how beta men became at the mere voice of a woman. I tell my wife to never talk on the mic in shooter games if she actually wants to win otherwise the guys will focus on her rather than the game.
@@BatteryAz1z You're thinking of statistics. Studies themselves are typically fine. It is when people try to talk about what the studies say is when most of the bullshit happens.
couldn't that have to do with their treatment in the industry? I work in IT and have had female coworkers leave, not because they couldn't keep interest but because the industry is toxic towards them and treats them unfairly.
@@jordanreni4509 I’ve been in tech over 10 years. Women OBJECTIVELY RECEIVE MORE BENEFITS & FAVORS THAN MY MALE CO WORKERS Why? Because of guys like you who believe the LIES they peddle about women ❤ stahp it
I would like to share that in fighting games, female competitors are actually quite prevalent. Cuddle core, american tekken 7 player, is a perfect example of this. She competes at an extremely high level in her craft, and they are just as, if not more demanding, than other main stream competitive games. Rhythm games also see this effect. I think the main difference between her success and the lack there of in other main stream competitive games is the fact that they are team based. With solo play, I think women are able to have a lot of stigmas removed, and come into their own. More so due to baseless negative connotations people have when playing with or against women. Also important to note that the age demographic for Tekken 7 is significantly higher than the rest of the competitive game market, meaning higher levels of maturity (30 y/o adv).
If women are around the same skill level as men when it comes to competitive gaming in general then the idea that women are barely represented in team games can't be defended with the claim that men have stigma against women and thus choose not to play with them because there'd be nothing from stopping a group of women from forming their own team and competing at the same level as the men. Wasn't there an LoL event where a top female team went against a male team and the male team won in 13 minutes?
That makes sense actually. To be honest team video games are so toxic I (male) mostly didn't want to bother with that side of them, I can't imagine how it must be to try and weather all the additional crap from being female.
@@Shadowh8ter happy new years. Sorry for not responding quickly, gotten drunk. The point is the difference in mental pressure and factors. In team games, you have to be considerate with the mental of your team as well as the perception people put into your brand. Because this unfounded stigma, people have to work with an additional burden. In team games, there are more factors for this burden to effect. Solo games reduce the area where this burden is effected, making it more manageable. That was the entire point. With the all female league team, team siren, it was just a marketing disaster. They positioned themselves in a way to fail. Not because they were all female, but they made promises they couldn't keep. Aka, under qualified for the task of turning an industry on it's head. Made too many promises too quickly.
@@ladsbois7302 I agree that perception can affect performance, but not to the extent the difference exists. Female LoL pros are vastly inferior in account statistics compared to male pros. Even ignoring their professional record which you could try to excuse by saying the crowds don't like them due to them being women or something, their own personal accounts where they queue ranked and casuals are vastly worse than their male counterparts. When it comes to fighting games a female making it to world tournaments is an exception to the rule if it happens at all in many fighting games, and when they do make it to worlds they rarely to never make it to the higher brackets. The same even goes for online tournaments when covid was at it's peak and all tournaments happened online which should be even more comfortable for women. Neither of us truly know the correct answer as to why exactly women under perform in high end competitive gaming, but do you really think it's more of a stretch that the average woman doesn't have the drive or skills to compete in such games than this idea that almost every single game with a competitive scene in the past 10 years is in some way emotionally gatekeeping women in a way that doesn't equally happen to men? I feel like the later is such a stretch it's practically a conspiracy theory to me. I've played Smite at a top 1% level basically since it's launch. I've been on lower end competitive teams early on, and when I realized the game had no future financially I simply grinded ranked every season which I've always been 3k+ MMR in which is the top percentage of players. I can't count 10 female players I know in my ranked queues. Of the 4 I can think of, all 4 of them are girlfriends to top players they duo queue with. Is there possibly a girl here and there who don't let anyone know they're a girl in my high end lobbies? Maybe. Is it likely? Not really. And again, they'd be an exception to the rule. I just don't see how you can think women can perform at competitive games equally to men when it basically doesn't exist across all games across all of human history. We've also become extreme egalitarian in many countries. How egalitarian does things have to be for you to believe it's not external factors preventing women from becoming represented proportionally in competitive gaming? Because we're pretty damn egalitarian right now in society.
@@Shadowh8ter ooo, we are getting into a full blown discussion over this. I may be hung over, but I will try my best. I used to be a big MMO player. The one I played in particular was BDO, and was fairly decent at what I did. Other than that, I don't have much experience with high level team games, and usually spend my time playing solo games like Tekken 7, BlazBlue, and osu! standard. For Tekken, my highest rank was Mighty Ruler, which I would say to be the top 15% of players. BlazBlue is a more casual game, just for fun. osu! standard, rank 15,967 globally. Now we got how underqualified I am to talk about this out of the way, I would like to add a bit of a correction to your first paragraph. In my opinion, its less of the crowd, more of the team players as the important factor. Teams are looking for performance. Teams work best when they are on the same level, and are coordinated. Because a woman's presence is perceived to be so lucrative in high level, they not only have to deal with the expectation of being good enough for that team, but they also have to prove that they are beyond a "gender gap". This, to me, creates and us and them scenario for a team, and leaves the players extra stress for no reason. With all female teams, this would be better, but there are very little women who are public in gaming who are at said high level, making it much smarter business wise to make male focused teams. I personally don't think it's true that the average woman doesn't have the drive or skills. Let me use a good example, the digital art industry. I was personally interested in making art for some time, and done a whole load of research. Art is as, if not more, demanding then a bunch of competitive games. The art industry is extremely challenging, and difficult to get into. It takes tons of hard work, and patience. I found that a lot of high level, amazing digital artists were female. They put in the hours, and gotten amazing results. I think the main reason why we don't see a lot of women becoming such experts in team games is due to the people not culturally appealing to them. I said this before, there are competitive females out there, who perform amazingly in e-sports. Cuddle core is one, but also xootynator, top osu! standard player (current rank: #27), and tournament monster. In my personal experience there is a fair amount of women who are amazing at BDO pvp. I am also fairly certain I heard about women playing in a few european csgo circuits. The genre does not matter. They are there, but the reason why we keep thinking that they don't have any drive, is just in their numbers. Games have millions of male players, and only the top whatever percent of players are the best of the best. Women, on the other hand, are a much smaller number. The one in every X amount of players becomes a professional parameter applies to the population of women. Since there are so little women to begin with, though, much harder to come by talent of the same level. Well, if genre doesn't matter, why do we not see a larger amount of girls? There in lies the biggest problem. People are constantly pushing gaming is hostile to girls, and combining that with their own experience with shitters early on, they lose the motivation to play those team games. No matter how much we be nice, its hard to uproot such a stereo type. You may think its very improbable that hide their gender in high end lobbies, but its extremely common on all levels of expertise. I know a lovely lady from indonesia who has 3k hours into csgo at global elite, 2k hours in apex legends, and currently getting into Escape From Tarkov. Not once has she said a word due to their reactions. She had the character and love for the games to push through the struggle, but, at the end of the day, if you have to do all of this for games, its no wonder why a lot of women decide to put their time into other things. It was very lovely talking with you mate. Really cool to see you are at a very high level at smite. If I ever pick up that game, I will definitely know who to call hahaha. Alright my man, have a happy new years, and be sure to better spend your time than talking with a hungover dip shit in the comments lol.
Both of the studies shown were looking at xp/hr, which is designed to be relatively even among all players - it's not a component of skill. There is some optimization that can be done, but that often requires lots of game knowledge, which again, is not a component of skill. Further, these studies were looking at average players - where you wouldn't expect to see a significant difference in play because the center of the bell curves would be nearby. In order to see a difference, you would need to look at the ends of the bell curve.
I speak on behalf of a foreign indie girl vtuber. I watched a few of your videos to the end, it was interesting:3 Here I get hate for being a vituber girl, supposedly I'm ugly, but I've never heard such a claim to guys. The market here is quite narrow, but there is little competition. But in general, it is difficult to break through, many simply do not like twitch, because it constantly causes scandals. But I like this platform. I am glad that I found a person who also takes streaming seriously and tells useful things:3
People need to take care when analyzing studies because your own bias seeps into it and you make the wrong conclusions. Fixing the variable for time spent eludes to the fact there is a gender difference. You can create any study to equalize genders or any other topic if you pick out which variables to fix. The study itself points to the fact males will spend more time in videos games than females; this is a gender behavior trait when it comes to video games; males have a higher interest in it overall than females and will put an insane amount of hours on average compare the females. So if you are looking at the EXTREMES of who spends more time and is going to qualify for eSports it's going the be overwhelming males that's just how statistics work, no amount of attempted inclusion is going to change that, however ; that doesn't mean those changes should not still happen. We should all support a no harassment regardless of which gender it is.
This is exactly right; and imo what is also not helping is the amount of women who are on Twitch and not playing competitive games but selling OF (which fuels the bias Devin mentioned). I think Twitch also bears some responsibility for allowing their platform to become a place where female creators sexualize themselves through ASMR or Hot Tub streams to and funnel viewership to OF as an alternative to creating quality content. The market will only take people as seriously as they take themselves. Some creators are even essentially training these responses from their viewers and are more than happy to take the money that comes with it - but not the criticisms.
Could the reason be that gaming is unwelcoming for female players? Multiple times I have logged off a game and stopped playing for the day after a match of harassed and singled out as soon as I speak in lobby. It's seriously uncomfortable and very unmotivating to log into a game just to be targeted. Sure it might not happen every game, but it happens enough for it to affect my motivation and my gameplay. Sometimes I'm not even allowed to play as the grief me or dodge queue. This happens to multiple women in gaming, the unwelcome climate could be the reason why women play less than men.
and now think about WHY it is that VVomen don't devote hundreds and thousands of hours towards these games, could it be, maybe just maybe, due to the fact that in life we are naturally drawn to the things that we inherently know we are good at or have the potential to be? Games at their core are an excessive in problem solving skills, something men do far better at, for evolutionary reasons, no doubt about that.
@@CheeryCherri I think this ignores the fact that men also get flamed online as well. I remember as a kid playing games and being called the F slur in the N-word all the time (I’m not black or gay that’s just what people do to piss you off). Online gaming especially competitive can often be very toxic. But to act like it’s just women that are getting this harassment is unfounded in my opinion. Yes, women are going to get heckled with different things than men do, but it doesn’t change the fact that either way you’re going to get heckled for something because that’s just how competitive gaming has always been. If you’re trying to say that women won’t compete because of the toxic environment then I would have to question. Do you believe that women are less mentally resilient when taking harassment? Because in my opinion, that’s what you’re implying. To say that women are discouraged from playing games because they get too much trash talk online implies that women can’t take the heat. I was 12 when people used to hurl slurs at me. Call me names tell me that they hope I die and all kinds of other awful things that they would want to do to my family. But even as a kid, I understood that those people were just rude people and that even if they annoyed me, I would just eventually get over it because that’s just the nature of competitive games with random people online. If you’re trying to say that women are not mentally resilient enough to deal with simple trash talk then I have no idea how you would expect them to take the stress of hundreds of hours of practice just to lose a game against someone you thought you could win. I don’t necessarily believe women are less mentally strong, but I do think your argument implies that.
I like the fact that Riot games is trying to even out the ratio between male and female playable characters in league (although I don't play it) and started right away with this task when releasing Valorant. The enemy is playing a female character so although I still hear them assuming the other player is a man, it happens they just say "she's here" and that changes something in their mind, being exposed to the presence of female agents. You don't have that in many competitive fps games. Also the stats shows that women play mostly female character, so having more choice, and not being stuck in a support role, really does help. When you're new to the game and you have to choose who to play, you go by looks, that's the only info you get in your first game. Then you stick with that character, because you're still new let's not add too much stuff to learn right away.
Yes, let's ignore the clip we just saw of a woman playing a competitive FPS and getting MVP. Also, yeah, MMOs totally don't have any competitive elements in them or anything like that...
The idea women are equal to if not better than men at competitive games is the most nonsensical shit imaginable. I think it's completely possible, plausible, and actually happens where SOME women can achieve peaks the same way men can, but the idea women (the entire gender) are on average equal to men (the entire gender) when it comes to competitive games is absolute nonsense and no valueless study would convince me otherwise. The extreme majority of the top chess players are men. The extreme majority of top FPS players are men. The extreme majority of top fighting game players are men. The extreme majority of top MOBA players are men. The idea that every single competitive game industry is just gatekeeping women out of them with sexism is absolute bullshit. You could at the slightest argue it'd be harder for women to get access to teamed esports due to there being a lack of synergy with males and females in a professional setting but that's a false argument because the implication of women being equal to men would imply that there'd just be an all girls team who would be just as good as an all boys team. There's such overwhelming evidence that women are not equal to men in competitive games whether it be esports or not is overwhelming and the only counter to this claim is irrelevant paper studies or low IQ defenses that women are actually chad god gamers who are just too scared to make millions in competitive gaming because sometimes beta nerds are cringe on twitter.
the STEM example works for anything but competitive sports. Also, using a study comparing performance in MMO's, rather than a competitive shooter or MOBA, where reaction time and physical ability, would shine, is misleading. It sickens me that there is so much harassment in the gaming community, but even with all those unfavourable odds you would think in the last say 10 years eSports have been popular at some capacity, that we would have seen a crazy talented female player in any proper eSport dominate and become one of the best (at least in a t1/t2 team), yet there have been zero. I would love to be proven wrong, just seems highly unlikely we haven't seen a single female player at a high level.
So I personally don't give a s**t about the league or women playing, but I genuinely do not understand how a study can conclude that the difference comes only from time played. We have loads of female pro players who continue to put in and have put in hours that are on-par with current male pros, but no matter what female player you take, say in the CSGO scene, they will get absolutely mollywhopped by even a Tier 4 male player. Pro women literally used to struggle to hit Global in matchmaking, so Tier 40 could be more relevant. ALSO - women can't compete with men in pro gaming because unlike STEM, the disadvantage they have comes from societal gender roles (through their parents) and it is not possible to make up that gap as you add time to it later in life. The evidence for this is beyond clear - female pros are getting paid and have leagues with semi-relevant funds, they're not good. They also have the right to participate in the male events, yet they never do. The expected value of a female teams' participation in a male event de facto is zero. ALSO #2 - It is soooo misleading to refer to a Hearthstone female pro player like that is indicative of ability. You are replacing the main skill needed for most pro games which is hand-eye coordination with an RNG-decisionmaker combo. That example is the epitome of irrelevant - it's like saying Botez is a pro gamer. I believe there is 1 example that actually works for you, believe it was a female Overwatch or female Valorant player who made a pro league. The conclusion of your video is entirely based on 1 false premise - that we can generate a "ceteris paribus" situation where we can control for the "time played" factor. The reality is that we can't and any game that is even in-part built on hand-eye coordination will always lead to male player domination since that is just what we grow up doing. Naturally this leads to other societal issues eventually through men having limited skills in a bunch of categories, but within the confines of this topic, this is not a relevant piece of the puzzle.
Then why the same bias is in the chess world. Women are thought to be not suitable for chess, said many famous male chess players. Is that again the eye and hand coordination that's the issue? Standard Chess is a slow sport! No. Its the bias. Somehow in every field there are excuses to write off women as worse. That's sexism my friend.
If there are 99 male players putting in 10k hours into a game for every 1 female player putting in 10k hours, and those female players that do put in the hours are constantly being discouraged, harassed, locked out of opportunities for practice, teams, etc. Then obviously women are going to seem like they're just incapable of competing when the field is dominated by men, and even those 1 in 100 women who do put in the time and effort can't compete with the men that have more resources and acceptance in the field. This seems like you're trying to debunk scientific studies with your idea of common sense when I bet you didn't even read the methodology or conclusions of those studies cited for yourself, you just look at reality and are saying "well obviously women can't perform well in gaming" the lack of women who have made it to professional gamer status through exclusively their own effort in hand-eye coordination games rather than being on a sponsored female team or something means that we don't have the proper data to support your conclusions though, because obviously there's more factors in whether someone can be the best of the best than just the amount of hours played. I'm sure there are total scrubs out there who've put as much hours into LoL as a lot of the LoL pros and just aren't able to get to that level due to other reasons. Just because there are far less women in that category than men (to an extreme degree, let's be 100% honest-- almost no woman can no life a game as much as a lot of men do, it's completely socially unacceptable and frowned upon in comparison) doesn't mean that gender/biological sex is a restrictive factor. And his conclusion isn't "entirely based on one false premise" either, because he additionally lays out the barrier to entry for women in gaming and the harassment they constantly face. I don't really agree with your assertion that the societal gender roles causing men to have more experience with hand-eye coordination means that women just will never be able to be on the same playing field at the top of the top either-- otherwise men in general with a lot of gaming experience or experience with activities that requires that hand-eye coordination would just be flat out better than women if all else was equal, but that doesn't seem to be the case (even though all else is never truly equal regardless) TL;DR you seem to be arguing based on your opinions, views, and how you think things are, but not arguing with legitimate points of data. Opinions are great, but you can't disagree with studies and facts with just an opinion alone.
@@ankontini Yeah those pro's have never seen grass in their life. You could maybe argue that men behaviourally are superior for professional sports at the extremes, therefore even in chess they are way more likely to dominate female players because of competitive drive, narcissism, or some other masculine trait, but I feel like female athletes can take on these more masculine traits and become the best. Anyway, I do think chess is just the bias and aura around chess being a male sport/activity and women shouldn't bother etc etc. Still not comparable to a shooter game where reaction time and hand to eye coordination plays a big role, so your chess example doesn't make much sense in this instance.
For Hearthstone, VKLiooon is a woman who won the world championship back in 2019! >She also went on to tell an anecdote about how, at a major tournament a couple of years ago, a male player told her she was in the wrong queue because "this isn't for you". Finally, she was asked what it meant to her to be the first woman to win Hearthstone's biggest prize: "I want to say for all the girls out there who have a dream for esports competition, for glory, if you want to do it and you believe in yourself you should just forget your gender and go for it."
At the end of the day, it's not even about well/fast/aggressively/competitively women can play, it's just that they should not get shit shoveled their way for competing or even playing in the first place. It is generally admitted that in any team sport, playing at home is an advantage, right? The way it is, women NEVER play at home. And that's a HUGE understatement.
It doesn't matter whether the mean average male or female gamer is better. What matters is that all of the top gamers are men because these are the ones you'll want to be watching on the screen. That said there are no physical limitations for a woman to become as good of a gamer as the guys, such as there are in every physical sport. Woman can and do currently play in the multi gender team leagues that currently exist. It's possible that women just aren't as insane as the top level men to dedicate 14 hours every day sitting on a chair to become a top level gamer, and that's arguably a good thing. Men take risky behaviour a lot more. This is the same reason why CEOs are mostly men, its nothing to do with sexism and arguably isn't even a problem. The only thing against the points that I've raised is that women might not feel comfortable joining a team with 5 or 6 guys, as they would if there were 5 or 6 girls, and that could be disuading good girl gamers from becoming e sports players, and females may want to watch other females in e sports because they can relate more, though the league will still have very low viewership because they aren't going to be nearly as good at the games as the generic leagues.
the main problem I run into, and I see is that women such as I did not get the advantage of starting gaming earlier than male counterparts. My brothers would game and I wanted to also game such as them. Instead, I was handed Disney princess games and wii sports. I would often ask for more games or different consoles and the response was way different than when my brothers were. If I wasn't so late to the gaming scene I feel as if I would be better as some of these men who been playing games as far as they can remember. I started gaming around 16, but even then, was limited due to my parents telling me they won't support it. even to this day when I say I want a career in gaming as a female both sides of my family keep telling me to search after different careers.
Videos like these are pretty boring, because most people are going to take the safest positions about this type of stuff. Just like with the streaming video there's not enough data publicly available to arrive at any conclusion really. It's always really strange metrics that don't mean much. Where's the data for games like LoL, DotA, OW, CS, etc where we should be able to ascertain per capita rank statistics by X demographic? Not to get too tin foil hat about it, but this type of data seems like it should be easy to obtain yet NO ONE across the many competitive games seems to track and publish this data. Also, if you're a woman who can compete at the highest level odds are you'd find more success in content creation rather than eSports and I'd imagine if you're going to have to deal with harassment, you might as well get paid better and establish your own brand.
@@AxisZtv Because he can't address any of the points you have given so instead of confronting the content of your post, he is attempting to dismiss your post and character assassinate you.
I think you can look at the measurable things and logically form an opinion like 'well there's only 3 women in the top 100 therefore women are bad at esports' or something to that effect and that makes perfect sense. I simply can't fault that as a valid point. I'm not arguing that in this moment, women just can't seem to compete consistently at that level. The problem is it's not addressing the societal cause that women have been, and still are, actively discouraged from starting or continuing anything. The barriers they must overcome when compared to men are more plentiful and difficult to bypass. Deep rooted opinions on what women are here for, assumptions that girl streamer = hot tub etc. etc. Men don't have to deal with the same type of problems, or even the amount of problems, and are actively encouraged to succeed in a society that's be been moulded to make men successful for hundreds of years. I think I agree with your final point and see that as one of the many 'actively discouraging' techniques - for lack of a better word - that I've mentioned.
@@ZupaTr00pa This is why we don't want to use raw numbers. We already know women are under represented at the higher end of competitive bell curves compared to men. I'm more curious if there is statistical parity on the bell curve of women among themselves. For example if we look at 1000 men and 100 of them are Diamond ranked then all else equal (controlling for things like playtime, platform, role type, etc), we should see something similar for 1000 women. The problem is this type of data doesn't seem to be published. The societal stuff is a completely different conversation, but without the aforementioned type of data, we can't really do a cross sectional analysis. I also don't think the societal (gaming spaces) conversation is one being had honestly. I will say MOST competitive gaming spaces harbor a lot of toxicity. They always have. Something like 75% of online gamers report harassment of some kind (I'll source this at the bottom). I don't know if it's the case that women receive harassment at higher rates than men. All we know is that the harassment is different, but for every rape threat, cunt, and "go back to the kitchen" there's also a slew of "kill yourself," you soy boy virigin basement dwelling neckbeard beta cuck along with various death threats (which btw some women engage in this behavior as well). As someone who has been on the internet for over 20 years, you have to get tougher skin, but as someone who wants these spaces to be more welcoming game devs/publishers need to take moderation much more seriously. While not all that competitive, there's a reason FFXIV boast having one of the best online communities, it's because they have some strictly enforced moderation. Source: www.adl.org/news/press-releases/two-thirds-of-us-online-gamers-have-experienced-severe-harassment-new-adl-study
I am high up in STEM, a Principal Architect in the IAM field so generally when I work with people who are highly skilled, and when I look at the team members I work with, I can see the sexism that exists in STEM easily, and not by the number of women I work with (though it is there as well, not as bad as you'd imagine though). When I look around, I see men with a variety of skills some good, some not so good, when I look at the women every single one of them is an all-star. This isn't caused by sexist hiring practices, it is because to get this far in Information Security and be a female you have to be an all-star.
I agree with everything, however... having a separate league for women may not be such a bright idea. It further spreads the idea that women are not good enough be in the same leagues as men. And while having a separate female category will initially encourage women to play, it will not help women in the long run. Because if they can't compete with men who are better, because of their experience and exposure to the game, they will not be able to progress and get better skills. At least this is what the same issue in the chess community taught us. A few of the worlds best female chess players consciously stopped competing in women's tournaments because that was holding them back. For example Judith Polgar. We still haven't been able to solve these issues in women's chess. Women's tournaments still exist, women can compete in men's tournaments, but not vice versa. And there are women only titltes. Are these women's only privileges harming or promoting women in chess/esports? That needs to be discussed.
If you think that it further spreads the idea that women aren't as good as men after all the points made in the video, then that's on you and every other man who is misinformed.
@@xKumei whether women are as good as men or have the genetic ability to be as good as men are two different things. The difference between the two is huge. One of them is an objective fact, due to the fact that women have been ostracized and bullied in the gaming industry. Fewer players of a group with fewer hours played, leads to fewer successes by the group. The other is a sexist opinion. And by the way, I don't know many men called Angelina. Do you?
@@ankontini Yeah I didn't write that comment very well. I guess to me it seems like the decision we have right now isn't between women's and "men's" leagues, but between having women's leagues or little to no women playing at all given the reasons outlined in the video. Do you think the solution is try and get more women involved in the main leagues in an organized way? Or do you think there just needs to be a focus on helping women bridge the gap between the leagues? I don't really understand how your chess example harms anything, given that the women who are able to compete in the main league continue to do so. They aren't relegated to only playing there and it still provides more opportunity than would otherwise be there for other women.
We see this happen with every Women's League in existence. Soccer and basketball come to mind. The only place a Women's League dominates is volleyball, and I think we know why. Otherwise, women's leagues are underfunded, massively under represented in media coverage, and generally treated worse (see the many news stories about women's teams given unsanitary/dangerous hotel rooms).
@@xKumei I appreciate your comment. There is no easy answer to this and I am not strongly opposed to having womens leagues. However, my experience in chess as a female player was that in team championships where I had to play against a woman, the other teams frequently didn't have one on their team, or matched me against a child, or the put a novice woman against me so that they dont get a penalty. While I was winning without effort, my men fellow players were playing real games and becoming stronger because of that. The captain was also satisfied having a somewhat mediocre female player and never pushed me to prepare or something. I would win awards while men of my strength wouldn't ever get prizes. So why would I want to become better if I am already getting attention and prizes? You have to be very aware and you have to adore the sport as a woman to motivate yourself in a system that rewards you for just being there. And then the whole idea that circulated, that women are worse players than men, and there is nothing we can do about, as a woman you start to believe it. Because playing in strong tournaments is one of the greatest ways to improve. Keep playing against novices and you will never improve. Very few women have had the ambition to break that barrier and challenge the unattainable world of men. And they faced great obstacles. That is why I am not giving a definite answer. I think we just need to discuss more on the issue and decide whether we can fix these issues by concentrating on other things, like creating an accepting non toxic environment for women and maybe not laying so muh emphasis on womens leagues.
People forget that in Starcraft 2, one of the best zergs in the world was a woman for a long period of time. Scarlett made it out of the group stages in GSL (the most competitive league) in 2020 multiple times making her one of the best players as recently as a year ago. It's just a numbers/time game
disparities in STEM are clear. in the usa females get 60% of the scholarships, grants, loans, "pre-approved" placement in classes and courses. yet when it comes time to graduate only 6% (!!) stick it out. of those remaining 6% who didnt waste that funding, only 50% stay in their STEM field more than 2 years. of that remaining 50% of 6%, another 50% (so now were down to 1.5% of the original 60%) will get preggers and leave to take car of their child. then 50% of those (down to 0.75% now) will return after 2 years of childcare, but then another 50% (0.3%), will leave STEM again forever in another 2 years. from 60% of funding to 0.15% use.
Both your comments were great. Any source for the statistics in this comment? Would like to use it as an argument point myself with other people later down the line as it's a great statistic and exemplifies the fact that men and women simply make different choices lol.
@@ZupaTr00pa The early half of those statistics I'd attribute to women being less interested in things than men (you can find studies on this super easily, as well as studies done on babies to weed out the idea it's societally created) and the later half due to the biological fact that women are on a shorter timer than men, and naturally most women would rather stay with their childrens when given the option to because most parents regardless of gender would rather stay with and raise their child than work all day and miss like 80% of their kid growing up. Men don't really have a biological timer because their sperm and lower half works for an extremely long time, arguably never stopping until extremely old ages, whereas women's biological timer starts to die down in their mid to early 30s and almost completely dies off by the time they hit 40. Also statistically women date up not down, so a woman working on STEM who got pregnant is more than likely dating a man more successful than her career wise so it's no surprise out of the two of them she'd be the one to stay home and raise the child. That's also easy info to look up.
Getting a job in STEM has very little to do with ability. That has been the case for decades and will continue to be the case, except for women, because we just need more. It is much easier to tell if someone is good in sports/esports than in engineering and science.
This is an incredibly important and well structured video. Possibly one of your most important. No matter how good someone is or is not at gaming or streaming, regardless of race, colour or gender, no one deserves to be judged in a community that should embrace differences better than any other on the planet. We have a chance to be the leaders in equality. That will truly put esports on the map.
Yeah I think the problem of women in gaming is not so much the skill gap, but the toxicity towards women in general. We need to cut that out, then we can start to see representation because right now women are just too scared to join a team of all men. However this could just be solved by making a team of all women. Yet when that was tried the skill gap was so enormous that they didn't even get off the ground
@@pepsiman4418toxicity towards women in general? Who wins more divorce cases? Who gets harsher prison sentences? Who gets more government benefits? Who gets celebrated more? Who gets the schools tailored to them more? How about women just not care what society thinks and just play the damn game and get good at it?
Scarlett alone disproves this entire video. Game is game. Jessie Owens won 4 gold medals in 1936 in Germany, arguably the most hostile environment imaginable for a competitor. You are never going to convince people that leveling up in an MMO is equivalent to top tier competitive gaming. Billiards, chess, darts all have women's division despite no obvious advantage for men. I support you creating women's divisions and teams, and I think that's great. But to attribute known and measurable advantages to "culture" is nonsense. Also, of course any man or woman can learn to reach a level of competence in any game, and those cultural factors may inhibit populations of women from doing so. But top tier esports is all about skill. I once again refer to Scarlett disproving the entire premise of this video. Let me know when you make a video advocating for more men in nursing and makeup sales Devin. The only import in this video is as a lesson in what a "straw man" argument is.
I think y'all in the comments, really overestimate reaction time when it comes to pro/high level play. Most high level gameplay has little to do with simple reaction time. 90% of y'all will see a sick play and say "nice reactions" when it was actually just a prediction based on knowledge from thousands of hours of play or previous actions made by the opponent in the game. I'm not saying reaction time doesn't factor in any way, of course it does, but I swear every single person and their mom will say "reaction time" and pretend that is the whole reason when it's obviously not the whole story to anyone who as reached a high level in any competitive game. There are men who are at the top of the games they play and they don't have better reactions than other men who are worse than them. Things like on the fly decision making, strategy, precision, knowledge checks, teamwork(if it applies) are all weighed way more heavily in most competitive games regardless of how important reaction times can be. Cultural factors are the main reasons women aren't playing games and succeeding at the highest level. Now if those are ever addressed the top 5-10 best players of certain games may still be male due to "reaction time." It's an obvious possibility because the reaction time difference is a fact. However, if you think the overwhelming majority of top players in gaming being male is because "reaction times" you just aren't a good player or you fundamentally don't understand high level play.
This. Also, IIRC, fighting games have ways where you can punish players try to brute react their way into an advantage. The only thing in fighting games that comes to mind that high reaction speed gets you that yomi and game knowledge don’t is some hit confirm situations.
It's not cultural factors it's biological factors. Women are less interested in things than men. The study Devin tries to use as an argument completely backfires on him because he tries to remove the amount of time spent men dedicated compared to women. Men play games exceptionally more than women, which makes sense as women are far more interested in people than men are, and men are far more interested in things than women are. Less time spent means you likely aren't going to be able to compete at the highest level. This filtering factor combined with the fact most women who play video games play more casual/social games results in an extreme, extreme, extreme minority of women from being interested in competitive gaming and being willing to put in enough hours to become that good at the games.
@@Shadowh8ter "Women are biologically less interested in things than men." is basically your entire argument and it's so incredibly ridiculous that I'm genuinely amazed you arrived at that conclusion. Forget understanding games, if you understood biology you would understand that the environment can greatly affect how genes express themselves. So to even say "it's just biology" without attempting to address the environment is beyond silly. I don't understand why you even began to talk about social behaviors without addressing the society in which those behaviors are being expressed. Men play more games than women because it's a socially reinforced behavior for men and not for women. This is obvious to literally everyone. Parent's reinforce it in early childhood due to learned gender biases. Greater society also reinforces it through media and advertisements. It's a self-sustaining system of reinforcement.
@@Kekkai_ Lol I hate these low IQ takes that anything you don't like is just due to society. These exact same studies have been done on infants and extremely young children with identical results to their older counterparts. Young girls are less interested in objects than men. I don't know which incel or morbidly obese cat mom put it into your head that women being more interested in people than men is socially constructed but it's objectively false. I didn't even get into the fact that women are higher in trait neuroticism than men leading them to be less interested in higher stress/aggressive environments as they react to negative stimuli greater than men. The most dent head take you could ever hold is that every single difference between men and women besides physical is environmentally created, it's absolute nonsense and nothing suggests otherwise other than none peer reviewed, never replicated, never cited studies made by 3 feminist college kids. Also, reminder the more egalitarian and more wealthy a society becomes the more different the choices men and women make become. Your idea that it's socially constructed is absolutely unfounded because the poorest and least equal societies, aka the ones that treat women the worst, are the societies that have men and women becoming more similar in careers and life choices. To suggest women make these choices due to sexism in society is to suggest Sweden is one of the most sexist countries on the planet as it has the least amount of women entering male dominated fields, favoring female dominated fields such as nursing.
@@Shadowh8ter Jeez I wished you would have addressed anything I said instead of creating some strawman of my points. This is the problem with talking on the internet. Kids don't read. You attacked multiple points that I literally never said. You are acting like I would disagree with facts lmao. If you read anything I wrote you'd understand that I'm arguing that these biological factors alone don't seem to be substantial when our society is set up the way it is. "anything you don't like is just due to society." Where did you get that idea from what I said? When you have biological facts you have to take into account the environment. This means that you can't ignore the environmental factors. This doesn't mean that you should ignore biological factors. If you read my first comment I consider the obvious biological factors and acknowledge their possible effects. "Young girls are less interested in objects than men." If you know anything about these factors you keep bringing up is that these factors cannot account for the overwhelming male vs. female disparity in competitive gaming. Also to pretend like even these traits are purely biological is something not even the people creating these studies would say with certainty. So why is it so crazy to consider that a change in environment may lead to a change in observed behavior? "The most dent head take you could ever hold is that every single difference between men and women besides physical is environmentally created, it's absolute nonsense and nothing suggests otherwise other than none peer reviewed, never replicated, never cited studies made by 3 feminist college kids." Again, I never said anything close to this. Even in my initial comment I say that regardless of environmental factors there is probably going to be males succeeding at higher rates in competitive gaming due to biological factors. My point was the overwhelming difference is not something that can simply be attributed to biology. "To suggest women make these choices due to sexism in society is to suggest Sweden is one of the most sexist countries on the planet as it has the least amount of women entering male dominated fields, favoring female dominated fields such as nursing." And for the last time, I've never mentioned sexism even once in my arguments. What I was talking about has less to do with sexism and more gender roles, gender conformity, behavioral reinforcement, childhood development, etc. To conflate that with just "sexism" is again a fundamental misrepresentation of what I'm claiming. Just because you heard other people make random arguments about some topic doesn't mean I'm making those same exact arguments. People are different. You literally sound deranged. Get some water. Take a deep breath. Read what I actually said. Then maybe get back to me. Regardless, if you think that these large scale socio-cultural behaviors can be completely hand waved by saying "its biology" you are literally not worth talking to.
I agree with the premise for the video but a big problem in the studies you pointed out are the game genre. Ofc women will perform just as well in a game like ffxiv to men as the form of progression isn’t skill based rather achievement based. I’d like to see a study into a competitive game genre like fighting games or mobas be used to support your claim as it’ll give the video more credence. I also feel like a missing component to this video is how society views video games and more specifically competitive video games. I might be wrong but i feel like playing video games on your pc all day is more of guy thing than a girl thing in the sense that way more guys to tend to be like this than girls and this gives into the notion that because women in comparison to men don’t play competitive or pc games as much as men, that it in of itself means that women are inferior even if sex rarity has nothing to do with performance. It’s like the idea of bandwagoning but instead of calling women frauds for hoping on the wave late or assuming that women can only like dressing up, putting on makeup, or going out. It’s more along the lines of 19th century science where the justify sex bais by using extremely evidence.
Game studios like to show how inclusive and diverse they are, but there's a reason a company like Riot has never done something as simple as releasing a graph of the average male MMR vs the average female MMR and the average top 10% male MMR vs the average top 10% female MMR. It'd take them less than 10m to produce that data, throw it into a graph, and post it to twitter, but we know that'd never happen because it'd show men having a bit more average MMR than women and it'd show the top 10% of men having obscenely higher MMR than the top 10% of women, and that'd go against the narrative.
I don't want to come off as a bigot here but I truly think including someone like Amouranth in this discussion is just highlighting the root of the issue you want to address. These women who are skilled gamers face hardship because they have colleagues like Amouranth. Some people will find it incredibly hard to take female streamers serious when the face of female streamers is sitting in a kiddie pool playing with a sharpie. They have to deal with people who see that content on the front page, as the face of their industry and in turn get ridiculed because they are being directly compared. I understand the whole "sex sells" but when your bringing that into an industry that it doesn't belong in, all you do is bring down the rest of the crowd who are trying to do it properly. This is the equivalent of having a hospital where a handful of doctors get to work in a Hooters uniform. You're no longer a hospital known for your great doctors and life saving treatments, you are now known as the hospital who has the Hooters girls. Sure those doctors may be great at their craft but it's hard to take them seriously. This has become the issue with gaming and streaming. There are a handful of streamers 'posing' as gamers getting all the attention while incredibly talented gamers are constantly asked why they are wearing a black t-shirt instead of a bikini. The space has turned so sexual that's now the face of it instead of these women being appreciated for the skills and intellect they bring to the industry.
For the first time. I lost braincells watching a Devin Nash video. Sorry, I don't agree in the slightest. You can't say women are equal to men in terms of competitive game performance when you the study YOU CITED uses WORLD OF TANKS. As the main reference point of study. A game entirely irrelevant and obsolete to the major competitive esports titles such as League of Legends, CS:GO, etc. Where is this "truth" you talk about? All I heard was blatant misinformation. The video contained way too many generalities that were vaguely true and untrue.
I mean, I adree with you, but you should be surprise how not so irrelevant World of Tanks still is. Esport wise, yeah, it's not amazing indeed. But there is still a ton of active players. Far more than a lot of 5 stars games. But, I agree, that's not a good game to take as an exemple because how small the competitive scene is in this game. I personnaly played in multiple major tournaments in WoT the last 2/3 years. So I know more than anybody else, that this game isn't really good for this kind of studies, just because the esport around it is just too small. We'll have a 130k cash prize tournament in China in few month tho, I am very hyped.
Probably, though it's not exactly wrong when it comes to the main competitive gaming genres. It's a known fact women have slower reaction speeds on average than men and have slower twitch muscles than men on average, both of which heavily contribute to your abilities in FPS games, MOBAs, and fighting games. None of those are disputed facts and all of which contribute to average skill when it comes to gaming. This doesn't mean a woman can't be as good as a man, it doesn't even mean a woman can't be better than men in any given game, it's just a piece to explain a broader trend that women perform lower than men on average in competitive games.
@@Shadowh8ter Even if they have slower response times you have to account for the individual females playing and control for other factors such as dedicated practice time, motivation, competitiveness etc. It's possible that a higher subset of men in general play games thus the ratio of those with sufficient motivation and ability is higher for example. The fact may be that there are fewer females, but the causality is not established which is why he rightly brought up STEM science. All that aside, what is the point of the assertion to begin with. An ah, hah men are better than women or that women should compete seperately?
@@trollingisasport You're right that due to there being much more men who play competitive games, and the fact men tend to put much more time into games leads them to perform at a competitive level for more often than women. I was simply giving an extremely mild defense of the idea that "women as a monolith are worse then guys at gaming". I don't think it should really be taken as anything more than just a "well sure I guess" kind of statement. I do however think they should compete separately, tho not because of simply the biological reasons. Regardless of the reasons women are just exceptionally worse than men at competitive games when it comes to the highest ends. Whenever a high end pro gamer girl is brought up it's almost always the exception in the game, not the rule, and there's few to none of them who can even compete at the lower end of the top brackets men compete in let alone getting close to the top of the men in the top brackets. I feel like women should be allowed to compete in competitive games the same way women can compete in soccer. Have their own league where they can prosper. They will of course and rightly should make less money than the men (unless they get more viewership of course) but I feel like it's more of a problem to basically have little to no women in competitive gaming at all rather than have them in a separate league if they choose to do so. It's not like we just do this with physical sports. As far as I know there's no real biological reason as to why women perform worse at billiards than men yet there's still a female billiards league. For whatever reason women just don't perform the same as men do and thus they have a female league so they can still compete.
@@Shadowh8ter Yeah, I agree. I'm not against them having seperate leagues but I just hope people don't equate gaming with something like a physical sport in which the sexual differences might actually lead to physical injury or things like muscle mass have an overwhelming advantage.
Tell me how many women are in the top 1000 players on any major server? By the way you need 5 different roles. Can you gather 20 for 4 teams? I doubt that. Don't get me wrong in Starcraft 2 there is Scarlett, but its a 1v1. It's easier to draw 2-3 good female players. In LOL you need 5 (one for each role.)
I really liked this video and how you presented it. I'll make it a point (even make a post-it on my monitor), to link this video to at least 10 people who I think would appreciate, or could stand to hear the information presented in it.
Honestly I've given up on trying to play competitively because of these issues - I actively avoid any game with voice chat. Before you even said your argument I was thinking to myself 'Its because we get pushed out'. I remember years ago when somebody announced an all female league team, that made me try harder, but it's just too much - I admire all the women who've succeeded despite everything, I just don't have that kind of willpower. I see a lot more women starting streaming now because they can be vtubers, but I feel it's just putting a bandaid over the underlying issues. I hope I can see change being made over the years! Thanks for speaking about this.
I’m commenting as I’m watching and to address your point made at like 13:30. The evidence of men being better at gaming was stated at the beginning of the video. Men are more likely to play more. Yeah they’re equal if they have the same time played but you definitely would see more men being on the game for over 24 hours than you would see women.
I want to agree with this video so bad but there’s a part of me that resonates with the having thicker skin. Yeah there is an issue in the gaming community but at the same time it’s an online community where people don’t even see other people as human entirely. People are hidden behind the screen which allows them to be they’re true self unapologetically and some people are just assholes. [talking about the streaming harassment, online gaming harassment] even decent people would try to verbally hurt someone if they were pissed enough. Everyone who plays fps games have to adapt a thicker skin. It’s a pre-requisite for playing a game that can enrage you. Some people curse to relieve that rage and others talk shit to other people. Not wanting to develop a thicker skin is a shoulda woulda coulda mindset.
@@iMistTheVoices The problem is that women have to develop an even thicker skin than men if they want to be in the gaming space as a woman because of the fact that women just automatically get treated fucking awfully by a sizeable portion of gamers who might not have that toxicity trigger flipped in other situations if it was just a lobby full of men (I'm sure there's a lot of crossover though between general toxic people and people who make gaming unwelcoming for women) Being constantly dehumanized and debased for your gender on top of everything else you hear and see in gaming communities can easily lead women to just quitting because it makes games way less fun to have to deal with shitheads like that. Any way to make gaming a more positive space (for everyone) should be encouraged.
@@sere971 I can partially agree that women would have to have thicker skin than (white) men. But I can’t as a whole agree. I can’t speak from the perspective of white people but from my perspective the fallback jokes are always racism. I’m not saying that to say that my struggle is more or less than women but to show that I understand what it’s like to be dehumanized. (Something that Devin can’t relate to). And I’m still standing what I stand on;However, I do think it’s harder for women to develop thick skin because of how more tuned into emotions they are but I don’t think they develop Thicker skin. Especially when what I’m hearing from Devin is that they get told to get back into the kitchen or minor offenses like that. It’s still rude most definitely but that’s another reason why men are better at games then women because they don’t let those insults stop them from playing the game because they love the game that much. Typically
@@iMistTheVoices Forgive me but your point almost feels like the 'all lives matter' issues that was stirred from George Floyd's death. I agree that white western males are in the 'position of power' for lack of a better term. Any other race or gender is automatically placed below them. My point is we should be supporting everyone to be treat as equal as possible no matter what their situation or problems are and not comparing one group's situation as being more or less difficult than another. It feels - and again forgive me, I'm not trying to offend - but it feels like your point is closer to just infighting and not supporting each other. Earlier it was BLM but that didn't invalidate women in esports. Now it's women in esports and that doesn't invalidate BLM. Topics rotate into the spotlight but that's not the time to say 'but these people are treated badly too! Where's your support for them?!?'. I hope that makes sense.
@@ZupaTr00pa no offense taken. I didn’t mean for my point to be viewed as an all lives matter points. I meant it to show that my opinion isnt from an ignorance standpoint but from a point that understands the emotion of being dehumanized. Like I’d had to grow up with lynching jokes and stuff from randoms online. instead of letting that discourage me from playing a game I enjoyed. I utilized the muting/blocking or banning feature. I can imagine how it’d feel to be objectified and stuff on the game but if you are going to let the action of trolls determine how you stream/play a game. I don’t see a world where trolling or assholes are ever going to be moderated. To where your feelings are going to be safe. You’d need to, instead, develop thicker skin to be better suited in a harsher environment. I don’t see how “support groups” are going to make someone want to play a game and deal with the same issues as before. (Unless that support group is going to bully the trolls that they encounter) which doesn’t seem like a smart idea. If equality is to be established, it should be established with a mindset and teaching how to ignore ignorance instead of letting it influence your desire to play a game because that won’t ever go away.
Seems like Devon is inferring a lot from this early 1900s Harvard study. Women are constantly told what to do by people. Go in to STEM! Don't go in to STEM! Don't have kids and focus on your career! Have kids and maintain a home! This is a rare whiff for Devon, and also sort of implies that women as so stupid that they need to be propagandized to do the things you want them to do. Does anyone ever ask women what they want without coloring the data or the questions? Get 1000 women and 1000 men to go through some FPS combine and then we'll have some recent data directly related to this, otherwise this is all speculation.
This is literally what I was thinking. I've conversations with My fiance and showed her how women are just treated lik their dumb being told what to do. I do not understand why not just let men and women choose what they want and not have propaganda for both and observe what they do.
If I could like this comment a million times I would. If I was a women in today's world with this media I would be furious on how everyone is telling me get a career don't get marriage. Do this do that. Oh you should get this you think this way.
The thing about these kind of videos is that you can find a ton of arguments to favor the theory of discrimination. But it becomes really hard to explain why woman simply aren't represented in high elo. In e-sports, sure, maybe the industry is discriminatory, could be argued. But why are the vast majority of high elo players male?
Its also numbers wise there are more men playing in esports then girls but ultimately good is good if they are good then it will show at some point is a competition its just as of yet none/not many girls have got there
Thank you for pointing this out! A lot of creators struggle with growth, but as a woman I seem to not be able to gain the same level of respect as my male counterparts, even if I am better or more knowledgable, the men are still promoted more. And as the study mentioned, women don't support each other. I have been burned more by female creators than the male ones. It is really sad.
" women don't support each other. I have been burned more by female creators than the male ones" If the past wasn't so heavily lied about, you would have known; women are women's worst enemy. It wasn't even that long ago (less than 30years) that this was considered common sense and well known.
Don't know if you will see this found it a bit late but personally when you were talking about you appearance and your point being judged I feel that the way you present yourself shows how you see yourself not everyone ofc but someone like amoranth who sexulized themselves nobody told her to do it that way that's the way she decided to it and good on her but you can't present yourself in one way and then say hey respect my words and take what I'm saying with a informative mindset
Yeah I thought the same. If Devin had presented this video in a hot tub wearing a speedo I think a lot of people would take his opinion less seriously.....
you lost me when you said no one takes ammouranth seriously because "...hot chick..." hmmmm does it have something to do with what and how she chooses to stream? have you taken a look at some of her content in the past 12 months - 24 months? no one is taking her seriously because she is not doing anything seriously, she is not conducting her streams professionally like you are. Men in the gaming world get harassment also, if they are playing a competitive game and for whatever reason are not good, they will let you know. I actually get "hate messages" while i play new world from people on my team, and others that i try and kill in the Open world, i havent told them my gender, but regardless, they are willing to be nasty. my point is, acting like this is a one sided issue is not helping the issue. so you know what i do? i block them and keep playing, if it is over an open mic, ill mute them. Great implemented feature others should use more often.
@@Atlantplay im not new at this game, been at it since launch, people are nasty towards people because it is a human thing to do. play a competitive game, people take things way to seriously.
Disappointed to see my comment was deleted/removed/hidden. (at the very least, I can't seem to find it anywhere) I thought I was fairly measured in the coverage of my opinion without being offensive or aggressive.
@@Ryan11111 I said "deleted/removed/hidden.". I posted a comment a few hours after this video was posted and it submitted without issue. I even refreshed to make sure it's posted properly since YT does funky stuff whenever it detects certain words, irrespective of if they're bad or not. It was there. When I woke up and checked back, the comment was gone. So yes it was deleted/removed/hidden.
Tough I agree that its a hostile environment for women the same can be said for men. Most epsorts games are toxic its fair to say that women have more than their fair share of this. However women just dont put in the time like the earlier study says when compensated for time they are equal but thats not how the top functions. The top players blast years of their life on a game to autistic degrees generated by a desire to be the best that most people will never experience. I dont know a lot of women willing to go the max on anything expecially with the newer generations coming who are more work-life balance aware than any generation thus far. I think women are smarter than men and realize that ambition and accomplishments represented in dollar amounts at the end of your life mean nothing. This is probably the reason why they are not willing to make the trade off you have to make it to the top.
the same can't be said for men because men aren't harassed in gaming on the basis of being men-- they're just harassed because gaming communities are toxic lol. It's not the same because that other toxicity doesn't just go away because you're a woman-- there's just additional layers of toxicity and insults heaped on top, and you're discounted for an additional reason that men don't have to deal with. I do agree that women are far less willing (and less able due to social expectations, but that's a different conversation) to put in the sheer ridiculous amount of hours it takes to be the best of the best though, but the situation is very much a gendered issue for harassment based on just being a man or woman.
I'm a woman in a gaming niche dominated by men (city builders & management games). Devin. Thank you. Thank you for being a voice that will be heard more then mine and saying the difficult things that I want to say. Your passion at 16:13 fills me with hope - maybe our children or their children will live in a world where we are finally equal.
Great video as always Devin. I would like to bring up one point that I have not seen mentioned. Women have different interests than me. The STEM field is a good analogy because you are correct that for a long time women were prevented from participating. However since opening up the field it remains male dominated. This is for the same reason the trades are male dominated. It is because women have the right to choose how they spend their time and dedicate their efforts. The reality is to get women to participate in male dominated fields you would have to remove their right to choose how they allocate their time. I for one have no desire to force women to participate in activities they don't desire. A better way to evaluate men vs women in a field is not to start at the top. When you are comparing the most elite at something you will get a warped perspective. Women who are elite at anything competitive are far better than the vast majority of men. However in almost every field there are very few women who beat the most elite men. This is not limited to male dominated fields. My sister is a very good volleyball player and played in college. She will beat me 10/10 times despite the fact I am taller and stronger than her. However the Olympic women's volleyball teams will loose 10/10 times to the men's teams despite the fact that volleyball is a female dominate sport in the USA in terms of participation. A better look at men and women in video games in not esports but who is watching the RUclips videos and streams. Viewership is overwhelmingly male. Men prefer these activities to women. In conclusion I believe there are girls good enough to compete on esports teams, but there are very few who have the drive to do it and that is okay. It should be up to them if they want to pursue esports. Men should not be gatekeeping and women should be given a fair shot, however it should not be a slight to women if they never hit the top. I am sure there is a woman would could go pro in League, but I would challenge anybody to tell me of a women would could be the next Faker.
It's like people forgot this discussion has already been debated and concluded. We already have massive global studies that have spanned across years with the results that the more egalitarian a society gets the less similar the choices and jobs of men and women become. The more free men and women are to choose what they want to do in life the less likely women will enter mens spaces and the less likely men will enter womens spaces, and that's one of the most factual statements you can make in the current year.
Sure, there are some interests and fields that are dominated by one gender. But you also have to keep in mind that removing gender biases doesn't happen overnight. Those biases are built into the system. If people tend to think one gender is better at x than the other, then the entire system will be geared towards that bias. The people who choose who gets scholarships and entry into schools, the teachers, the staff, the students, the people who hire for that profession, etc. will all naturally tend to assume "x profession is really for y gender because they are naturally better at it" and thus those professions will be harder for the other gender to get into, to succeed in, to feel fulfilled and happy and to enjoy their job. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. Even if one gender has some tiny advantage such as slightly faster reaction times that doesn't explain why that field should be so completely dominated by one gender. There are plenty of other skills that go into competitive gaming that women can excel at. The problem is that women are so thoroughly harassed in competitive esports that the environment is extremely hostile to them which makes it even harder to get ranked. Teammates are uncooperative or even team kill women when they speak on mic. If your team is turning against you just for being a woman how are you supposed to get as much play time? How are you supposed to rank up when you often get team killed or your team wont give you call outs? To be afraid to even speak to give call outs because there is a high potential you will get harassed for being a woman. To say nothing of the mental fatigue it takes to be constantly told to go make a sandwich, get in the kitchen, send nudes, etc. when you're just trying to play the game.
It boggles my mind how people cannot accept this truth. They rather believe the feminist oppression narrative, maybe because it feels like a morally superior point to stand behind. Thank you for stating it so eloquently here.
I agree that there is a bias barrier to women and that they are treated poorly online. That is undeniable, however what do you do about that? You can't force people to think the way you want. Efforts to force men to not be toxic toward women will only have a reactionary effect. And while there is a lot of negative treatment toward women online there is also a lot of white knights who take it to far the other direction. There is no good answer to toxic behavior online. It is far from exclusive to esports. Just look at the comments on this video, do you really think people would be this intense face to face? Of course not. There is really only two things that can be done to improve the situation. One there needs to be a woman who breaks though much like Jackie Robinson did for baseball. It is a extremely difficult thing to do as Devin highlighted but once it is done there will be more to follow. Second people need to accept that they cannot force the toxicity to go away, they can only control their own behavior. Individuals must choose to be kind a gracious and ignore the negativity.
@@darthvader8947 I certainly think it's a bigger problem than just esports, it's a culture wide issue. But esports could make steps to try to help women get into the sport more, and hopefully we will see some women break through, but right now the path to being a female competitor is so difficult a woman would have to be a damn god to succeed.
Moral of the video: Women can’t handle trash talk and men can. Evil women hating men In esports and the world just won’t accept women into esports. I got this from this video because I know that men have racial slurs homophobic, and transphobic slurs thrown at them all the time in games, and they don’t quit. When I was 12 years old, I remember people talking about the awful terrible things they were going to do to my family because they got mad that I beat them in a video game. Yes, women get heckled for different things than men usually but that doesn’t change the fact that anyone that plays games competitively is going to get flamed by somebody at some point. Also, I find the fact that you say women aren’t accepted in esports kinda weird. If there was a woman that was good enough to play on some of the best teams in the world, we would see at least one. When it comes to games like League of Legends, overwatch and others there’s not even one girl at the top. Even with all of these obstacles that you believe exist for women, there should at least be one, but there’s not so your explanation doesn’t really tell us why there isn’t at least one. I know some rough girls that can definitely deal with the boys and the Trash Talk and stuff like that so don’t tell me there aren’t women out there that could deal with the toxic environment.
Not a whole lot you can attack you on your points even if I tried. My little sister and I have played enough Overwatch together to tell you, I already know. If you don't I can't tell you how many times I've heard her told "get someone a sandwich" or to "get into the kitchen and do something productive" or "why arnt you healing girls can't dps." While they're dying repeatedly to something unrelated. Like blaming their shit gameplay on someone else is going to change something besides the player count. I've played in a guild in WoW for years thats 60/40 f/m. Maybe I have a little insight. Three of the best players in the guild are female of varying ages. One of the best rated pve players on the server is also female. Shes in the top .1% in most of the things she does. Sex has nothing to do with how good you are at video games. Time and skill and luck are the attributing factors. Is the bigger overall issue the toxicity in general? Because we can be pretty shit to each other and its just normal banter. Like we have to have some form of civility and talk. I've seen/heard grown ass men act like 10 year olds online over stupid and I mean stupid shit. Is it that its not a normal for girls to play video games growing up and we need to change that? My sister is probably rare growing up playing video games. My mom kept getting her barbies and other girlie things while we were playing Super Smash Bros and Mario Kart. One of the best things growing up was sharing my love of games with my little sister. I want to share this hobby of mine with as many people as possible. Its the most amazing medium for content. You would think that most hobbies, guys would love for women to have an interest in from even a selfish standpoint. Arn't you tired of it being a sausage fest. Gaming's landscape has changed quite a bit over the decades. Its constantly been the scapegoat of whatever a politician/news anchors agenda has been outside of having them be rated. I played Doom when I was 5 or 6 and still not a killer. Same with GTA(I was 13) and so many others. Not a satanist either. I wonder if this is some guys "last bastion" of women free area. Like this is only for us. Even though a woman might have wrote the story and more helped with level design. Speaking of women writers in games. Natsuko Ishikawa is probably one of the best writers to have penned words to paper. Please either go play Ff Shadowbringers or watch a video. You'll laugh and cry harder than a video game has any right to make you. Devin my brain hurts....I know I went off topic alot but just don't understand all the stupid.
It's actually so easy to attack his video it's crazy. There's overwhelming evidence women simply aren't equal to men in competitive gamings, and there's a mountain of biological, non-social reasons as to why that may be. He literally cites a study that talks about men and women leveling up in MMORPGs as a defense for how women can compete with men in gaming, and men still destroy women in the study unless you equalize for time spent per day because men on average spend more time on games than women. This was probably the second worst video he's produced in the past year or so when it comes to research and knowledge on the subject.
Which DOOM and which GTa are you talking about..? No way you were grew up in the 90's and turned out so soft and so sensitive to some competitive shit talk... 🧚🏻♂️
@@movement2contact Its nothing to do with being competitive. Its about abusing your teammates because their genetalia. Getting someone a sandwich isn't helpful commentary in any damn game. Unless your lazy and can't get yourself food. I personally am not effected by it but its annoying to hear the same stupid comment repeated because the brain is smooth on their end. Though you had no intention of having a good faith argument. Just another silly comment because you automatically disagree. Probably because your ignorant on the topic or open to verbally abusing half the population. Either way on you dude.
I personally know females can do amazing in STEM my dad was the technology, engineering, and machine shop teacher at our high school and ran the Robotics program. He loved having girls join the program and how the girls could bring a different view to a problem. For many years he had award winning teams from many levels of championship and at minimum there was one girl on each team if not more. One of those was even my sister.
its called Personal Choice, they have the ability to go into Stem fields but they choose not to, youc ant force them and when not force they will not go to it.
Thank you for this. I talk about this often and every damn time I mention the struggles I get told to stop acting like a victim, comments on how I look, and even someone that stalked me, when I approach the topic in a similar manner as you and speak about the issues not only directed at females but all minority groups within gaming spheres. Hell, the number of times I have been told to kill myself simply because I have noted the difference between male and female players in FPS lobbies is disgusting. This is a huge issue that needs to be addressed, so once again thank you for talking about it!
Once again, Devin Nash produces another amazing video with wonderful content and information. As a female in the gaming/streaming industry, it's not easy sometimes but I appreciate and value men in this industry such as yourself who put emphasis on this topic. Also, as a female streamer, it's challenging against other female creators as well considering some of the top women on Twitch are successful due to other topics besides gaming. I want my community to be about people coming and hanging out and supporting a stream where it's more about my personality and content than showing my body. No hate thrown to women who do that at all, it's just a weird gray area for those female streamers who choose not to do that and it makes people look differently at other female streamers/gamers. I feel like sometimes we don't get taken as seriously because of categories such as hot tubs and whatnot. Like I said, no hate at all women are free to do whatever they please. It's just challenging at times and frustrating being in that middle gray area but I wholeheartedly appreciate this video and thank you SO much for bringing more awareness to this!
I agree with everything you said in this video, but 4 minute mile was kinda a bad example ironically. I get the intent in that example, but It kinda gives more ammo to the incel women haters in gaming, cause still no woman has yet ironically ran a mile in 4 minutes)))
It would be career suicide trying to create a study saying that women are worse than men at video games. The stigma comes from women entering tournament qualifiers and losing out immediately.
This. Are there women who can compete at the highest level of video games? Sure. Is that an exception or the rule? An exception. Women on average simply aren't as good as men at video games, there's nothing wrong with that. The extreme majority of top chess players are all men, there's nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with men and women being a bit different and people need to get over that.
@@Shadowh8ter I wonder if our society placed women above men for hundreds of years whether we'd see men struggle to compete instead. If every time a man gave something a go they were belittled and discouraged from even taking part. Meanwhile women would be told to push themselves and become the best. Would we still have this 'natural' divide between ability? Would men and women be equal? or would men still be better? I think for the biological factors then we'd see men still outperform on average but for things like chess or certain esports I think it'd be much closer, if not majorly in favour of women. I think it's the societal roots that are skewing and distorting everything.
@@ZupaTr00pa 1. Men weren't put above women for hundreds of years. Men and Women struggled together throughout the entirety of human history. Men and women are biologically different, and because of that it put men and women in separate roles. A woman isn't below a man because she stays home to take care of the children, that's equally as important as the man going out to work or dying in a war. 2. You make it sound like women have uniquely been disincentivized from entering fields that aren't normal for their gender. Hundreds of years ago you'd be criticized as a man for being a stay at home father while your wife does the work and brings in the money. You also make it sound like for hundreds of years men were told to strive and women weren't, this is absolute nonsense. Stop getting your perception of human history from morbidly obese lonely women in their mid 40s with brightly dyed hair. 3. Your idea could never be reality because men are high in testosterone, more assertive, higher in competitiveness, and lower in neuroticism than women which means yes, if men were pushed away from gaming they'd still be superior to women in gaming due to these biological facts. 4. You try to frame your comment in "past hundreds of years" yet gaming is like 30 years old, and mainstream competitive gaming is like 10 years old. Men and women are treated identically in society in the past decade, and there have been little to no stigma against women in gaming. If anything it's easier to be a woman in gaming now than ever. You can go spend a week working on a vtuber rig in vrchat or whatever other programs there are and get near guaranteed success due to being a woman in gaming whose not dressed up like as slut. 5. The more egalitarian a society gets the more different men and women become in terms of the choices they make. This means the more equal men and women become, the less likely women are to want to pursue jobs that are dominated by men. This is an objective fact, it's one of the most supported facts in scientific history, right up there with gravity. Your idea that it's societies fault women don't perform as well at gaming then men but that's quite obviously not the case. The reason why women don't enter STEM, the reason women don't play many games, the reason women rarely enter competitive games, all of which is due to the biological nature of man and woman. Men are interested in things, women are interested in people. It's no surprise men are the gender more likely to waste hundreds of thousands of hours being good at a video game and women more often than not are not willing to do such a thing.
@@Shadowh8ter 1. I think women staying at home was absolutely a sign of being below men, socially speaking. I'm not a historian but I'm pretty sure if a woman arrived at a building site 200 years ago they would not be well accepted by the male dominated space. Even today I'd say the same. Equally any man who stayed at home to look after the kids and let the woman be the bread winner would be seen as weak and it'd be implied something was wrong. I'd say we still see that as a problem today too, though on a lesser scale. That's the societal problem - that we tend to jump to conclusions and assumptions when in reality it doesn't matter if mum goes to work and dad stays at home or not. 2. Women have been as uniquely disincentivized as much as black people or transgender people - in other words they haven't. The point is anybody living in the west that isn't a white western male is going to have more problems navigating society in general. I think women have absolutely been told they can't do XYZ. Devin makes this point clearly when the Harvard professor stated that female mental capacity is less. This attitude has been and still is rife in society and, whether true or not, implies that women 'can't' and 'should not' and that man 'can' and 'should'. Women were, and still are, squashed into whatever boxes they were given. 3. That could be true for sure. I don't know enough to say otherwise on that one. Not that I'm an expert on any of this tbh. I linked another article elsewhere that mentioned the gap between reaction times is closing between men and women, possibly due to more women's exposure to things like racing cars etc. This is interesting as it suggests that the biological factors many feel are concrete may not be as set in stone as once thought. 4. This is not a problem unique to the past 30 years. Women must have gotten the ability to vote at the same time as men then? Men must have gotten the same paternity rights when women did? The way we as a society say that this is how it's done and push people around into 'just how it is' scenarios I don't think is right. 'Men and women are treated identically in society in the past decade, and there have been little to no stigma against women in gaming' This is fundamentally untrue for the reasons Devin states here and in his other video about women in streaming but also for so many other reasons across society. While I agree it's probably easier than ever to be a woman in gaming, that's nothing compared to how easy it is to be a man in gaming. 'near guaranteed success due to being a woman in gaming whose not dressed up' Again, I don't think that's true at all for the reasons in the videos and mentioned above. Your logic suggests almost every woman who is just wearing everyday clothes will get 'near guaranteed' success in the gaming industry which... come on. That's just not true. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you. 5. Yes I believe you're right about the egalitarian society part. However in this article it states... www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-women-equality-preferences-20181018-story.html “If you randomly take a woman or man from the U.S. or some other country, knowing this person’s gender would tell you very little about their preferences.” and that 'The [research we've done] does not address why women and men overall scored differently on these traits - for instance, whether this gender gap is biological or if it is imparted by the culture.' and finally that “We find enough variability across countries to indicate that people respond to the conditions in which they grow up”. Now this is just one study, I may well be missing something huge (like a study that has specifically addressed the biological vs culture thing), but it seems that the egalitarian thing isn't as big of a factor than simply the environment in which they are raised. If I'm told every day, from a young age, I will never be an accountant by the people I care about and have influence over me, and the society around me says the same thing, I'm probably not going to be an accountant. To be honest, I don't really care if men are better at video games or if women are better. I care more about putting people into boxes they either don't want to be in, or don't know they don't want to be in just because 'that's how it is. Better toughen up and accept it'. Please - I don't want to keep throwing more and more hours into this xD (why do I do this to myself). But I feel I'm learning a lot about the area and taking on different opinions such as yours and I appreciate the time you're taking as well. :)
@@ZupaTr00pa 1. Of course they wouldn't have. You're so privileged it's insane. You do know 200 years ago the average life expectancy was like 35 right? Do you know that? That the extreme majority of people never made it to the age of 40? Do you understand what that means? That means death is extremely common and the death of a woman is far more horrible for a species with a low life expectancy than that of mens because women can produce more children and men can't. What do you think people did 200 years ago? You think they were working in an office typing up reports? Jobs were dangerous 200 years ago, life was dangerous 200 years ago, you'd die from common diseases 200 years ago. Women weren't kept from mining in coal factories because "eww, disgusting women" they were kept from mining in coal factories because in an old society it's imperative women are kept safe and protected. 2. Lol women have been told they can't do XYZ, meanwhile there are diversity quotas giving women who don't deserve XYZ the XYZ because companies want to look like they have a diverse company despite the fact a minority of women want to work in the industry. Women are put down in society yet there's many, many, many female only scholarships and job openings in the country and 0 men only scholarships or job openings with the exception of like being a model for male clothing or something. Stop drinking the koolaid homie. The most egalitarian country in the world is Sweden I believe and they have the least amount of women working in stem and the most amount of women working as nurses, there's a reason for the most equal society in the West having the least amount of women in male dominated careers and it's because women don't want to. 3. Highly doubt it, and any article that'd suggest otherwise I'd be highly skeptical of their methodology, sample size, and repeatability. This isn't a diss on you but a reminder that a study means nothing if it's not repeatable. 4. Reminder that the majority of women didn't want equal rights when it was given to them as there were many privileges women uniquely had were lost once they were given equal rights. The idea that throughout all of human history women were fighting to work 40 hours a week, die in coal mines, and get shot in wars is nonsense. Also you citing Devin means nothing to me because Devin Nash is ideologically biased in this discussion. Do I need to remind you his study used for suggesting men and women are equal in gaming is a study that goes over how fast men and women level? Reminder that in the same study men were vastly superior to women in leveling until you controlled for time spent? He's not an honest actor in this discussion and nothing he says is credible. He praised amouranth when she's literally a cam whore that devalues women as a whole in gaming. As for your later point you're misunderstanding me a bit, but yes. If you are a woman who has the quality and ability to become a streamer and you put in proper effort and strategies to be a successful streamer you will become a successful streamer so long as you aren't entering a saturated gaming space. Literally dozens of vtuber girls get signed on every few months and they all get hundreds of active viewers with successful youtube and twitch channels, most of which are horrible at games or aren't that interesting but gain a guaranteed floor of success due to being women in gaming. 5. I've read that article and yes that researcher has no idea what he's talking about. Reminder that this is THE MOST repeatable scientific study with the exception of core truths like gravity and the world being a globe. If you have 1 study that shows these results then you could argue it's cultural, however these studies have been done hundreds of times across like two decades in essentially every single country in the world and it tracks that the less free a society becomes, and as well the less financially well off a country becomes, the more similar men and women become, and the more free a society becomes and the more wealthy a society becomes the more different men and women become. You can't honestly believe that every single successful country in the world regardless of language, region, and history EQUALLY oppress their women the more successful their country becomes. Reminder that to suggest this data is cultural and not biological is to suggest the least equal and wealthy countries in the world treat women more equally than wealthy first world countries. Men and women choose similar jobs more often in second and third world countries, or countries where women have less rights in law than Sweden, so are you implying in Sweden they're telling women to stay in kitchens and Saudi Arabia is telling women to get into stem and become doctors? The moment you think about the topic the moment the idea it's socially constructed falls apart because we know these countries treat women like shit. Also as for your last last point, I agree nobody should be put in a box. If a woman wants to become a pro gamer I think she should be able to do so, and I think anyone who goes against her simply because she's a woman is an asshole. But I just also know an extreme minority of women put as much time into video games as men so the chances of a woman actually being that good is rare, and I know many people watch girl streamers simply because they're women rather than hate them because they're women, and I also know women react far more negatively to negative messages than men due to women being higher in trait neuroticism. A lot of words and I don't expect you to reply to any of it as it's too much but there was a lot of info I figured you'd deserve to know about. I'd post links to back up more of my stuff but I've had probably 10 messages not get sent in the past two days in this comment section due to me posting links to articles of pastebins to my actual uncensored messages so people could read them and see the links.
After watching the video, I think the women's leagues should be just a transitory solution to create support network for competitive women, but the end goal should be to make them competitive with the "regular" leagues, until women can beat men regularly and the two leagues can be integrated. Otherwise I think the women leagues will be stuck forever with the stigma taken from physical female sports(that women are inferior in strength) and thus the regular(male dominated) leagues are the one pushing the boundaries of competitive play = always less watch time for the female leagues. I also think it needs to be done carefully and slower rather than faster, so the achievements of the women speak for themselves, rather than being pushed artificially forward with just a PR stunt. Setup proper groundwork and support network -> establish regularly scheduled matches between the two leagues -> as women's experience grows and world-class talent is found, they should penetrate into the regular leagues -> eventually gain enough respect that women are no longer looked down upon (so even a sexist manager will not have any arguments left when a female(s) obliterates his lineup in a competition) -> exclusively-female league is no longer needed.
Been catching up on your vids today. Love this one, 100% spot on. An absence of "evidence" is not evidence to the absence. But my guy, I gotta say with love, it's Har-vard not Hard-vard.
There’s a bit of a difference between Anne and amourath… one plays games, the other runs a cam show for 13 year olds. I feel Anne’s pain, but unfortunately the top female streamers on twitch aren’t actually “gamers”, which causes the “women suck at games durr” stigma
THIS! I agree 100%. As a female streamer/gamer, those types of streams really make it difficult to succeed because of my morals of having a community of people who enjoy my content and personality rather than hot tub streams but that's no hate to those types of females at all who do that, it just creates this weird gray area of us being taken more seriously because of those who choose otherwise. Idk I get hate sometimes for having this view but it's either females are laughed at because they hear "female streamer" and think I'm in a hot tub but in reality I hang out with my dogs and community and laugh at my expense so yeah.
@@tinktribe1251 it’s a matter of time and place. I think twitch is for younger audiences who realize sometimes watching somebody with an interesting personality play games at much higher skill levels than their own. Games are fun and bring us together. It seems the “just chatting” sub genre is doing everything it can to take that away. TIME AND PLACE
While i have always been 99% convinced that gender makes no difference to your performance in-game, you also can't disregard the fact that making a study that would even suggest that women could have worse performance potential in video games is very likely to get fired these days. Once you go past the news and to the universities themselves, you find a general justified fear by researches, no matter their gender, to publish their findings if they were to find non-males to be objectively disadvantaged. Cancel culture in research fields is a loooot worse and prominent than it is on the internet and people are losing their jobs over this.
It's kind a fact gender makes a difference in gaming performance when it comes to most competitive games. It's a well known and accepted fact men have faster reaction times and faster twitch movement than women do, nobody debates that fact. Whaddya think snapping onto targets in FPS games and reacting to 7 frame jabs in fighting games is? It's reaction time and twitch movement. Nothing wrong with women competing in video games but there's a reason even when it comes to online tournaments, even online 1v1 tournaments for essentially any competitive game genre it's 99% men, and that's just because men at the top of the bell curve are far better than women at the top of the bell curve. Men and women aren't just different when it comes to physicality and people gotta get over that fact. Men and women on average have around the same IQ's, women on average being a bit higher than men. However when it comes to the LEAST intelligent people it's almost all men, and when we go to the MOST intelligent people it's almost all men. Men and women on average have similar temperament and rates of violence, however if you look at the LEAST violent type of person they're almost all women and if you look at the MOST violent people they're almost all men.
@@Shadowh8ter the biological differences can be both positives and negatives, im not sure which outweighs which and i think it might be near impossible to tell. However academic cancel culture hurts females so much. Sure you get "protected" from negativity, but that also shields you from a productive acceptance of your differences and you are being robbed of the ability to work on yourself in the best way possible since making research towards that would be labeled sexist and you would just get your papers erased or even get fired.
@@MyPlaylists22 100% agree. Academic cancel culture is a plague and it's the reason why a decade ago I'd pull out studies and paper when I debate and now studies and papers have become near worthless in most topics due to academics being regulated so heavily on ideological grounds.
Not saying this is video is incorrect, but the "harassment" Anne deals with is typical regardless of sex, but apparently it's a bigger problem because she is female and it's 2022.
You know, that might have something to do with them getting a bunch of shit just cause they are female. The gaming community needs to better themselves
@@andrewhenshaw4067 People will have detractors in any major thing they do. The fact that women suddenly claim that they can't improve themselves due to "male gamers being meanies" shows they had no real drive there in the first place.
I don't know, Could the patriarchy stuff actually be real? I study a STEM carrier and the same under-representation occurs and I don't know how to think about this. PS: didn't know he was going to talk about it, lol. PS2 (subjective POV): well... the thing with STEM is a bit more complicated I would say. In my area, women tend to be more widely represented in fields like astronomy or astrophysics and hardly in pure theoretical physics or abstract math.
The _actual_ biggest reason IMO why there are so few women in any _top .1%_ of anything(except where pure physical strength is a major factor like some sports) is because women are more risk averse than men. Testosterone makes men take more risks, that's why most criminals, ma 55 sh0 ot 3rs, the top wealthiest and homeless people(in western countries) etc. etc. are men. Does this mean no woman will ever take the same risks as men, which is required to reach the highest of hights and lowest of lows? *No.* Obviously not. It just means that the percentage will be lower. Does this mean that women as a group inately have issues entering the _top 5 or even 1%_ in anything not related to raw physical strength(let's say after we ironed out most of the unfair disadvantages)? *No.* It only means the _absolute peak .1%_ will have more men. Do the issues Devin bring up here make it harder or less likely for the average women to enter certain fields? Yep. But it's absolutely not the reason why there are very few women in the top .1%. The women who do reach these insane hights in any field(99.9% of men also don't reach this height, obviously) wont be deterred by silly things like other peoples expectations. Just like the top .1% of men in these fields don't give a shit about all the people who try to tear them down. To reach the top .1% of anything you need to sacrifice _a looooooooooooooot of time/patience/health/sanity/opportunities etc._ to get there, and even if you do sacrifice that time(and all the rest) there's an incredibly low chance that you have all it takes to get there(including biology, physical and mental health, mentality, circumstances etc. etc.). Hence the risk is very high if you care about having a secure financiel life in old age. Someone saying that whatever you are don't belong in the thing you are willing to sacrifice everything for is not going to deter you even a little bit. These people are _incredibly rare._ Hence why there are _so incredibly few people_ going in and out of the top teams etc. compared to the absolutely insane amount of people who play those games and want to be able to earn a living from playing them. If you've actually spent a large amount of time in online games you know that _everyone_ gets treated like shet unless they find a group that aren't like that and stick with those people(unless you're just an average player that never says anything). People who want to insult you because they feel bad about something will use _anything_ they can to make you annoyed, if you're a woman they will use that because women tend to be sensitive about it(we shouldn't encourage this btw). If a woman isn't sensitive about it they will try something else against her. In games where my username includes my birth year I get called old and gross by those kinds of people. If they know where I'm from they will attack my country(Sweden) and use stereotypes about it. If they know what other games I play or what I prefer to play in the game they will attack that. Part of me enjoys the challenge of making them mad when they're trying to make me(or someone else) mad and out-arguing them so I probably encounter this a fair bit more than your average gamer~. All the women I befriended in games had no more issues then me being a decent player and wasn't having any extra issues with toxic people just because they were women, the issues and opportunities they had were just slightly different. Am I saying there are no issues with being a woman and playing video games? No. But there are positives as well. There are also negative aspects of being just another dude...especially if you're not very good at the game. Anyone like me who has ever pretended to be a girl in a video game(Tibia for me, when I was a 12yo) knows that there are some pretty neat perks that come with it(you can also see this by just playing with girls/women who are average gamers in terms of skill). You will be much more readily accepted into groups that don't like toxic people without having to prove yourself, cause most people view women as less toxic(which is a complete myth btw). People will help you out without asking anything in return, even give you a decent amount of resources, mats etc. that you need without requiring a big favor in return. Not to mention people giving you their time in form of helping you understand the game or tanking for you in wow or helping you with quests etc. Does this come with the risk of some of them being creepy? Sure, but most games today have all the tools you need to get rid of these people. Also Devin's point on nobody caring _at all_ about how you look or speak etc. as a guy just isn't true. The halo effect(and its opposite) is very much a thing for men just as well as for women and there are plenty of people who aren't hormonal teenage/early 20s turbo c0 0mers who will treat a women they don't find attractive as just another human. Not to mention all the shet you get if you sound young or old or have certain accents(including regional english accents) or timid or too forceful etc. etc. in VC that isn't related to gender... _If anyone actually read that, you must have some serious patience, my friend :3_ _I get that part of the reason Devin made this video is to debunk the clowns who _*_actually_*_ think wom. en are mentally d3 ficient but I don't think that's the meat of the issue of why the top .1% of performers in anything are mostly men. As I laid out above. Have a nice day ^^_ _Edit: and what I mean when I say .1% is obviously highly dependant on the field/game etc. and in most cases I'm actually talking about the .000001% or something to that effect._
Ironically in physical sports.... women DO perform worse than men due to their physical disadvantages, quite obviously, which is why there's been a huge debate about whether trans women in female leagues is actually fair to biological women or not. Yet that hasn't stopped calls for more gender representation in Soccer, Equal Treatment and Pay, even though women's tournaments don't pull in as many viewers and therefore ad dollars as men's leagues. So this little exercize of trying to find a study that proves women perform worse than men at gaming would make zero difference to the current push for more gender representation in gaming and eSports. If there WAS a study that did show women performed worse than men at gaming... you would still make a video about it, just with a different point.... saying perhaps that women are performing more poorly due to the lack of female role models in eSports and the lack of encouragement/sexist environment etc... so honestly it's just theatre... there IS no study that would disuade your opinion that women need to be equally represented in your industry, which is perfectly fine... just be honest about it rather than trying to Google studies showing women perform worse when there simply isn't one. eSports do not require physical capability, so much so that no matter how physically fit you are there's no difference in performance. So why on earth is there a women's league? If women are just as capable as men.... then what justifies women having their own league other than merely excluding men? There are no "men only" leagues despite men being over-represented in eSports in general... there is no league that will openly turn a woman, or a female team away solely due to their gender, that would be viewed as extremely sexist and childish... yet rather than leading by example, ESL are segregating women into their own league despite NO evidence of women performing poorer than men according to your research Devin and therefore no justification on why they can't compete WITH men in an all-sex league. IF there WAS a study showing women perform worse, then that would be justification for women having their own league.... so that they are equally represented and protected in the competitive arena... except it seems you want say that both 1) Women and men perform the same in gaming, they are just as capable as men and 2) They still need their own teams and leagues, it makes no sense. All this does is make the women's league a "side-show" to the men's league, whether you like it or not eSports viewership is predominantly men.... as seen in physical sports..... making the EXACT same mistake as the physical sports world did.... and look how that turned out, women are paid much less, not watched as much etc. I respect your passion for this but you can't "force" this to happen... no matter how many talented and capable females you know in the industry... as long as men are much more interested in gaming and women are more interested in beauty.... you will never ever truly a completely equal industry, and I don't mean just in terms of equal representation, or viewership or equal pay, but everything, 50/50... you also must ackowledge that's due to women themselves making that decision... most women couldn't care less about playing competitive gaming let alone in eSports... women will make decisions for themselves regardless of what man tells them to "get back in the kitchen"... I think women... like most people, are strong minded and wouldn't let that stop them... to blame men for women making their own decisions is counter productive. However there are never any calls for equal representation for women in the street cleaning industry or construction or lesser well paid industries... not a problem, but CEOs.... well now that's something people care about representation wise.... there's quite a seeping amount of "classism" in these kinds of topics that most people seem to be unaware of apart from those outside the elite/media upper class Califnornia/Austin bubble... only the billionaire CEO positions, millionaire eSports competitors, multi-millionaire sports athletes, TV hosts who are seen on prime time and actors in movies matter.... all the lesser-paid peasentry roles seem to matter much much less to this conversation and I think this undertone of what's NOT talked about rather than what is.... is the reason why a lot of people push back on this conversation all together... because it's not really about... women, or race, or LGBTQ communities at all.... it's about... look at the roles the elites take up, look at all the people who never have to work a 9 - 5 jobs in their lives again... let's talk about diversity in those roles... because honestly who gives a shit about whether the plumber you call to fix your leak is either a man or a woman.... you don't care as long as they do the job well and they take the least amount of money. It's... rather telling about how industries that take up such a small percentage of most workers.... are getting the most attention here.... merely because they are high paying roles.
What a fantastic comment, and you made a great point at the start, the fact that despite women obviously being physically weaker to men people these days still push for women to compete in male sports. 100% stealing that argument point.
This comment section sucks and is a massive letdown. Thank you for the video. I'm writing my university thesis on this issue as a game developer and a gamer. These issues need to be addressed more and this topic needs to be spoken about more. Solid video. Thanks for speaking for women, because you know we won't be heard
Any good recommendations for getting into this topic academically? Other than Jane's (2017) "Misogyny Online" and a couple of general research papers about gender-workplace dynamics in the tech industry, I don't have much on gender and gaming, specifically.
I just wish everyone was like me... I don´t care if it´s a woman or man... and i dislike supporting one party over another. Simply because in my head, if a person, no matter of gender, belief, sexuality or what not, does a good job at what they are doing, and i am looking for that type, then i will (rather would since i don´t run a company) employ them.
A women player that comes to mind for me when it comes to esports and pros is the player Karma(Rocket League) who is currently on Relax but most notable was on Splyce. She is a good player and much better than me. She has played in Lan events and has been a pro since 2016. Although she may not be within the top seeds for player in NA, she has still preformed and is much much better than 99% of rocket league players.
“They are just as good when you account for time played” - That’s the same as saying that they aren’t as good. If you aren’t willing to put in the time you will never be top 1% of the 1%.
I've said this before and I'll it again. Good luck finding women who are willing to put themselves through 50 hour work weeks, all the stress, blood tears and sweat just to have a shot getting top 16. I get it, we all want women to compete with men in Esports, but I can guarantee you that even if they start "Competing" it's going to be a very long time before they stop getting 30-0'd in 20 minutes in league of legends.
So basically you just said that women perform worse because they have worse self-esteem and that society needs to change instead of the individual women themselves. It's always society's fault instead of yourself.
Timestamp 19:30. I understand that's its hard to be judge because of your looks. But certain content creators use their looks as leverage and how they make fame. That's why people assume that. We assume things about amoranth by her looks because her brand is based on that. Alot of female creators awesome and they have a hard road and do amazing work. Like poki. But poki doesn't also run her brand off her look so people don't make those comments towards her. My point is amoranth gets the assumption/stereotype because she upholds it.
I'm pretty sure Poki gets exactly the same kind of comments as Amouranth because she's female. I don't disagree that Amouranth uses her appearance to help fuel her success but the assumption of anything other than 'hey, she's hot' based on her looks alone IS the problem here. There's the feeling that they're taking the easy option, they're cheating the system somehow and they're just softcore porn dolls and not humans. Anybody not thinking with their genitals or with outdated opinions has to realise this. These girls work incredibly hard and the persona they do or do not portray is only that. Devin often says don't hate the player, hate the game and Amouranth is one of the purest examples of that.
@@ZupaTr00pa I agree with the saying don't hate the player hate the game. How can Devin protray that amouranth is like some hero or cares that she gets these comments about her appearance. My point being is the stereotype will always exist because amouranth keep proving them right. I personally don't have any negative comments about poki because it's like damn you worked hard to hit immortal in valorant. How can amouranth sit here and be upset about people making comments about her appearance when that's her entire brand.
@@minecraft3114 I understand what you're saying. I guess it hits harder when all the comments are based on appearance - genetics and semi-uncontrollable factors - vs the quality of the content - almost entirely controllable. If you think back to times where you or others were bullied because of how you looked and think about how that would make you feel. I personally remember, vividly, times where kids would do this but don't really remember times where people said my point that I made was stupid. Does this make sense? I think that the visceral feeling that kids had when they were told they had big ears or were ugly is the same these streamers feel today. That is incredibly draining to hear every single day for years on end. I don't accept your view that Poki hitting immortal is somehow more or less impressive or successful than what Amouranth is achieving in general. Amouranth's success is unprecedented and entirely valid. She's financially well off, her skills as a content marketer are better than almost anybody else, she pulls a consistent 10k viewer average... this is not luck and should not be compared to achieving immortal in Valorant. Your point just feels like a way to just invalidate one success over another when we should be celebrating and encouraging the varied success of all women in the industry.
@@ZupaTr00pa your saying that amouranth success is valid. But her success as a content creator or marketer is based on her appearance. How can amoranth talk about how it's hard to be a content creator and how she deals with sexist comments when she used sex as a way to market her content. It's not right for people to judge women about their appearance or judge their value based on looks. But that's all amoranth has done. It just feels like Devin protray her as this girl who cares that's its a toxic environment. Amoranth contributions to the stereotype by making content based on her appearance. Rather then skills
@@minecraft3114 I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I strongly believe if Amouranth were to completely lose her appearance in a fire or something that she would be able to pivot into something else and still be successful because of her knowledge, skills and work ethic. It feels that you fundamentally believe that because the content is based on appearance, Amouranth needs to just accept there's going to be sexist trolls and that abuse in this industry is just how it is and if she doesn't like it she can just lump it. This is not how it should be. At all. Amouranth could spend the next 2 years getting immortal in Valorant and I guarantee she will be getting exactly the same abuse. Poki gets it. All women get it. I understand why you would think that it looks like she's perpetuating the stereotype but that is only a surface level understanding based on the rooted opinion that Amouranth's style of content is simply not as valid as other people's. We as individuals don't get to choose what people watch or what good content is. I might not agree that sexualised content is appropriate for Twitch but that doesn't make it any more or less valid or deserving of abuse.
I dont get the whole "harrasment" thing men face nothing less just take a look at joispoi24's videos he has like 100s of videos of pp ltelling him disgusting things
Hafu is one of my favourite, most inspirational streamers. She just works so so hard to get where she wants and doesn't give a **** what people think of her.
I just finished reading the first paper you cited and the methodology is incredibly flawed. In both games, the primary metric for assessing performance was experience gains per hour, something that says almost nothing about a player's skill. Most charitably, the methodological flaws here can be viewed as a product of ignorance (an honest mistake from people who don't play games). However, someone less charitable might argue that the researchers had clear ideological biases clouding their judgment. Honestly, my money's on some combination of the two. But either way, this paper doesn't address the perceived skill disparity between men and women in gaming.
bullshit, men in general are just not interested to watch woman sports cos they want to watch best vs best, so woman sport does not make as much money from advertisement and merchandize, that's it, you cannot force me to watch something i don't want to, and until this stands true you can simp as much as you want but woman sport will not be as popular as men sport unless woman teams start to actually win some games
I honestly believe the bias is only because there are at MOST 1 girl gamer to every 10 male. And of that 1/10 not even 1 in 100 spend as much time gaming as a male does, meaning they will not have as much time put in, and the end result is 1 good female for every 100 good guys. thats not a bias, its simply a fact. so the odds of running into one of the equally good females is abysmal.
Sorry, the study that shows they're worse in video games is the past 20+ years of competitive gaming with next to zero accomplished females. Not saying they *can't* but it's plainly obvious that they're unwilling, for whatever reason, and a soon to be failure of a spinoff league in the vein of the wnba isn't the solution. It has been shown in traditional sports that both men AND women are uninterested in women only competitions that are played at a lower skill level.
fax. if they were top tier competitive and could handle the climb to the top they would be there already. there's nothing holding them back other than skill and excuses.
Why don't women perform to the same level as men?
Answer: Its men's fault.
its annoying
Thank you so much for making this video
just an example on how gender bias can swing both ways (and how much this is an actual thing): In Norway girls are starting to consistently do better, and we see the performance gap increase as the child goes from primary to secondary school and then to high school. The boys that are low performing are also consistently told by teachers that they are "trouble makers" and "have issues with focusing" etc etc, and are often called "the school losers" by the time they reach high school (many of these drop out of high school before graduating). However; on national tests were students are anonymous and graded by a third party (and done on computers so hand writing does not hint to any gender) the results are equal: boys and girls tend to score fairly similar (to the extent that there is no gender gap when you account for several years of results). So the only reason boys perform worse in school seems to be the gender bias against them being "troublesome" by the teacher to the point were they themselves just accept that they are "school losers".
This is an example that strenghtens Devin's claim that "hey, if you're consistently told by everyone around you that you are shit, you tend to perform and think of yourself as shit"
@Daniele Esposito Numbers for 2019 show that for every age group between 25 and 65 there are a higher percentage of the women (in Norway) with a higher degree (Bachelor and above) than amongst men (I believe the overall gender distribution is slightly in favor of men in Norway than females, but only by a few percentage points).
My point was even before they start on higher education though. Of people dropping out of school before finishing high school the boys are in the majority. Overall grades in secondary and high school favor girls when graded by their own teacher, though the gender gap dissapears on national tests where answers are written on computers and a third party grades you. It was to bring out more points that that there can be a huge difference in performance when you remove someone telling you that you are bad and letting people compete on a similar playing field.
I want to emphasize though, this isn't an attempt to say "boohoo poor boys being stepped on by the oppressive system". Despite these numbers, Norway has same statistics as other countries on the other end: There are more men in high positions, in positions of power and topping the statistics of income. Overall gender gaps are skewed in favor of white men with well educated parents.
and why are men more 'troublesome' in schools? because men are less compliant than VVomen who are naturally followers... Again why? because men think more creatively, they think outside the box, break rules they don't agree with.
@@anab0lic now this iis getting a loong time ago since I read up on these studies, but if I remember correctly:
First, this is perceived troublesomeness (if that is a word), so the studu never said that "boys are as a fact worse than girls", this is all statisticly based looking at averages (recognizing that there is a big spectrum here). But iirc it stated that statistically boys tend to be louder and take more space, this leads to boys more often interrupting the class or students. They tend to be in more open conflict with each other causing teachers to see it more often. They also (again, statistically) are more likely to challenge authority. This gives the impression to the teachers that there are more boys are troublesome than girls. This is, again, according to that study which based itself on averages and statistics acknowledging that there are tons of individual differences
It depends on the game, and the genre. There ARE biological differences between men and women. Once such difference between biological men and biological women is reaction time. Biological men, on average have faster reaction times than biological women to visual triggers, and to auditory triggers biological women on average are still slower than biological men, but it's slightly less of a gap than visual reaction times. There are games and genres that reaction time is a HUGE factor in performing well - this difference is most prominent in certain genres that require on having faster reaction times, like FPS, and RTS games.
There are many studies you can look up about reaction time, but yea, in games where reacting faster, and milliseconds will make or break the match, even at the tippy-top of players, biological women on average will underperform in these types of games compared to the tippy-top of biological men. If this CSGO women's league allows transwomen to participate against biological women, I have little to no doubt, that those born biologically male (even after fully transitioning) will, on average, out-perform those who are biologically female.
There are some things that are engrained in our biology, whether it be male or female; things like reaction time, speed, strength, bone density, etc. In some games/genres the differences between the biological sexes will have more of an impact. There are always going to be outliers, of course, and anyone can work hard to improve their own personal skills, but averages still exist. Yes, women can work harder to improve reaction times, and can absolutely become better than the average male player, but so can men who want to work hard at it also, and like I said, at the tippy-top of a competitive game's scene where milliseconds (CSGO, Volarant, SC2, etc.) matter, biological men will almost always perform better than biological women.
I agree 100%. There are still women that are able to perform at the top of esports (geguri from overwatch), but achieving top .0001% skill level in fast paced games when at a reaction time disadvantage is simply harder.
You are mentionning the studies about pentarflexion moments which were (fortunalety) debunked: those studies were not properly using the groups, no proper analysis and overall lack of scientifically accurate analysis.
Try again
@Daniele Esposito yup and the article I found matching this is having incredibly low numbers even as a meta. Also funny to see that lots of its sources are statements and books, not that many studies... well at least there are some stud... damn 1974 qnd most of them rule out the cultural effects without even trying to test those. Well... this is not very shiny given the way things evolved to actually control and measure.
Please remove dust from your sources, look into which ones are actually following the scientific method and then you'll be good. But for now at least, it follows the old rule of 75 yo 95 of wrong studies when it comes to cogscience
@Daniele Esposito it's my field of expertise... I know too well how biased and flawed those are and fighting against this takes time but they are more and more acknowledge as insuficient. Overall cogscience is moving from its past of pseudo science to something more like we find in the hard science 😉
@Daniele Esposito you're wrong if your only arguments are that I need to provide counter arguments: since their sources are already ruled out, the methodology doesn't require anything at all. This is something people often get wrong. The legitimacy of their claim is only valid as long as it lasted. However... it didn't last as those bio and cog studies were for most of them debunked (from their content to uow they were performed) years ago. Even when I was preparing my PhD it was often a source of laughable comments in the teams about how those were in their time trying to found the most spectacular findings even if it was with either too tiny groups, unsuficient data, and too often rushed. Not even ralking about lack of replicability when (few) teams attempted to.
That's why it's cool to see that for like 10 years, CS (just to mention this field) is trying to clean up its mess. More and more studies are pushing toward cross-fields.
"You have accused me to have published"... no, I stated that the excerpt and sources are. This is different, I couldn't care less about you, I'm focusing on what is said ; not the messenger
You changed my mind about this subject. I was of the opinion that if women are as good as men they didn't need their own league because it would come across as exclusionary, but your point on representation leading to more participation makes a lot of sense and resonates with a lot of (anecdotal) evidence i've heard before.
That being said, at least one of the papers you talked about is not compeling at all: a sample size of 57 women is not statistically significant.
I don't think this invalidates your point as the paper talks about hours played and not about representation, which I think is the more important point to increase participation of women in gaming, along with reducing arrassment online.
Let me just make a point about women in STEM: My country (I'm not american) has a equal number of women in stem than men. However, there is still a lot of self segregation because men tend to go for engineering and women for bio/chem fields. So, just because there are more women, doesn't mean that the genders will be equally represented in every area.
Edit: turns out the number of men and women in stem in my country is about the same as of jan/2021, according to eurostat. I initially wrote the number of women was higher.
Small sample studies can definitely be used especially if it’s a recent area of research, especially if there isnt much contradicting evidence. Big studies are normally conducted because of evidence in small studies, and small studies are often referenced. I definitely agree what you said about STEM, not knowing which country you’re in im assuming the ‘leaky pipe’ is still a problem and private vs public employment. The STEM arguments in America are always very surface level. reaching a political aim doesn’t result in improving the underlaying problem. Im also confused why Devin’s stem argument is that now its fixed because women see women in the job. When the biggest barrier to women in stem has always been the glass ceiling, women have always been ambitious but been blocked. Women in stem has meant some barriers have been removed because women removed them. Theres still pay issues and maternity issues etc, and intersectional gender issues etc. im also not in America and the American gaze of everything is very frustrating because it often doesn’t recognise problems even within America but particularly between, esports and women is a global issue so needs a global len.
P.s women not doing something because men are mean is always funny to me. When oppressed groups have always fought back meanness but its the systemic structure which stops them
Separate leagues for sports that are not physical only hurts women by fully admitting that they are inherently terrible. There are many rules outlawing harassment in pro play and if they can't win the respect of the community that's on them
comparing progress in an mmo isnt really useful, as More Time = More Progress. then you try to say "its all equal if you ignore time spent".
"mmo leveling progress" isnt skill. a braindead potato can level up in an mmo given enough time.
Overwatch's PLAYTIME "level up" borders are not the same as actual earned COMPETITIVE rankings.
"but ive played the game for 100 hours, im probably top500 in the world, i should rank up any moment now" -person stuck in bronze
Likewise exp in world of tanks is equally useless. There are also many studies that would indicate there is a strong preference towards males at the top end of esports, as the key physical performance metric will be reaction time which favours men heavily.
That doesnt undercut the message of this video, but starting from a lie is aiming to fail.
@@anonymousalexander6005 True its a matter of choice. If they do not want to enter something, do not force them into it, that's what I believe.
@@nushia7192 Its still men's fault. Anytime women aren't doing enough of something. Its mens fault.
I don’t necessarily disagree with the women in gaming houses ruining competitive integrity angle. When I used to play overwatch competitively, as soon as I would hear a female talk on the mic I knew the game was likely over. What I found was that even if the girl was an insanely good player, the other 4 men on the team wouldn’t focus on the game, instead they would either focus on there being a girl in the game, or try to get her info or flirt with her. They would also not want to seem “try hard” and be wierd and pretend to have fun losing etc. Basicly when you incorporate a female into a male competitive scene, the integrity is gone because most gamer men are virgins in basements that have more incentive to try to mate with the female rather than focus on the game. It’s not an issue of genders in gaming it’s an issue of biological drive to mate, and I always hated those games because I would see how beta men became at the mere voice of a woman. I tell my wife to never talk on the mic in shooter games if she actually wants to win otherwise the guys will focus on her rather than the game.
What the fuck is this word vomit we are civilized people not apes
bro said biological drive to mate as if humans don't have a sense of discipline and self control
mmos? really?
Worse, MMO leveling. Not even pvp, leveling.
@@masterlinktm Studies say 98% of studies are bs. But don't take my study for it.
@@BatteryAz1z You're thinking of statistics. Studies themselves are typically fine. It is when people try to talk about what the studies say is when most of the bullshit happens.
And there's more women leaving the stem because they were forced into it, let them choose, do not force them.
couldn't that have to do with their treatment in the industry? I work in IT and have had female coworkers leave, not because they couldn't keep interest but because the industry is toxic towards them and treats them unfairly.
Exactly.
@@jordanreni4509my god women never stop complaining and playing the victim
@@johnathanmenezes2122 the adults are talking
@@jordanreni4509 I’ve been in tech over 10 years.
Women OBJECTIVELY RECEIVE MORE BENEFITS & FAVORS THAN MY MALE CO WORKERS
Why?
Because of guys like you who believe the LIES they peddle about women ❤ stahp it
I would like to share that in fighting games, female competitors are actually quite prevalent. Cuddle core, american tekken 7 player, is a perfect example of this. She competes at an extremely high level in her craft, and they are just as, if not more demanding, than other main stream competitive games. Rhythm games also see this effect. I think the main difference between her success and the lack there of in other main stream competitive games is the fact that they are team based. With solo play, I think women are able to have a lot of stigmas removed, and come into their own. More so due to baseless negative connotations people have when playing with or against women. Also important to note that the age demographic for Tekken 7 is significantly higher than the rest of the competitive game market, meaning higher levels of maturity (30 y/o adv).
If women are around the same skill level as men when it comes to competitive gaming in general then the idea that women are barely represented in team games can't be defended with the claim that men have stigma against women and thus choose not to play with them because there'd be nothing from stopping a group of women from forming their own team and competing at the same level as the men.
Wasn't there an LoL event where a top female team went against a male team and the male team won in 13 minutes?
That makes sense actually. To be honest team video games are so toxic I (male) mostly didn't want to bother with that side of them, I can't imagine how it must be to try and weather all the additional crap from being female.
@@Shadowh8ter happy new years. Sorry for not responding quickly, gotten drunk. The point is the difference in mental pressure and factors. In team games, you have to be considerate with the mental of your team as well as the perception people put into your brand. Because this unfounded stigma, people have to work with an additional burden. In team games, there are more factors for this burden to effect. Solo games reduce the area where this burden is effected, making it more manageable. That was the entire point.
With the all female league team, team siren, it was just a marketing disaster. They positioned themselves in a way to fail. Not because they were all female, but they made promises they couldn't keep. Aka, under qualified for the task of turning an industry on it's head. Made too many promises too quickly.
@@ladsbois7302 I agree that perception can affect performance, but not to the extent the difference exists. Female LoL pros are vastly inferior in account statistics compared to male pros. Even ignoring their professional record which you could try to excuse by saying the crowds don't like them due to them being women or something, their own personal accounts where they queue ranked and casuals are vastly worse than their male counterparts.
When it comes to fighting games a female making it to world tournaments is an exception to the rule if it happens at all in many fighting games, and when they do make it to worlds they rarely to never make it to the higher brackets. The same even goes for online tournaments when covid was at it's peak and all tournaments happened online which should be even more comfortable for women.
Neither of us truly know the correct answer as to why exactly women under perform in high end competitive gaming, but do you really think it's more of a stretch that the average woman doesn't have the drive or skills to compete in such games than this idea that almost every single game with a competitive scene in the past 10 years is in some way emotionally gatekeeping women in a way that doesn't equally happen to men?
I feel like the later is such a stretch it's practically a conspiracy theory to me. I've played Smite at a top 1% level basically since it's launch. I've been on lower end competitive teams early on, and when I realized the game had no future financially I simply grinded ranked every season which I've always been 3k+ MMR in which is the top percentage of players. I can't count 10 female players I know in my ranked queues. Of the 4 I can think of, all 4 of them are girlfriends to top players they duo queue with.
Is there possibly a girl here and there who don't let anyone know they're a girl in my high end lobbies? Maybe. Is it likely? Not really. And again, they'd be an exception to the rule. I just don't see how you can think women can perform at competitive games equally to men when it basically doesn't exist across all games across all of human history. We've also become extreme egalitarian in many countries. How egalitarian does things have to be for you to believe it's not external factors preventing women from becoming represented proportionally in competitive gaming? Because we're pretty damn egalitarian right now in society.
@@Shadowh8ter ooo, we are getting into a full blown discussion over this. I may be hung over, but I will try my best. I used to be a big MMO player. The one I played in particular was BDO, and was fairly decent at what I did. Other than that, I don't have much experience with high level team games, and usually spend my time playing solo games like Tekken 7, BlazBlue, and osu! standard. For Tekken, my highest rank was Mighty Ruler, which I would say to be the top 15% of players. BlazBlue is a more casual game, just for fun. osu! standard, rank 15,967 globally.
Now we got how underqualified I am to talk about this out of the way, I would like to add a bit of a correction to your first paragraph. In my opinion, its less of the crowd, more of the team players as the important factor. Teams are looking for performance. Teams work best when they are on the same level, and are coordinated. Because a woman's presence is perceived to be so lucrative in high level, they not only have to deal with the expectation of being good enough for that team, but they also have to prove that they are beyond a "gender gap". This, to me, creates and us and them scenario for a team, and leaves the players extra stress for no reason. With all female teams, this would be better, but there are very little women who are public in gaming who are at said high level, making it much smarter business wise to make male focused teams.
I personally don't think it's true that the average woman doesn't have the drive or skills. Let me use a good example, the digital art industry. I was personally interested in making art for some time, and done a whole load of research. Art is as, if not more, demanding then a bunch of competitive games. The art industry is extremely challenging, and difficult to get into. It takes tons of hard work, and patience. I found that a lot of high level, amazing digital artists were female. They put in the hours, and gotten amazing results. I think the main reason why we don't see a lot of women becoming such experts in team games is due to the people not culturally appealing to them. I said this before, there are competitive females out there, who perform amazingly in e-sports. Cuddle core is one, but also xootynator, top osu! standard player (current rank: #27), and tournament monster. In my personal experience there is a fair amount of women who are amazing at BDO pvp. I am also fairly certain I heard about women playing in a few european csgo circuits. The genre does not matter. They are there, but the reason why we keep thinking that they don't have any drive, is just in their numbers. Games have millions of male players, and only the top whatever percent of players are the best of the best. Women, on the other hand, are a much smaller number. The one in every X amount of players becomes a professional parameter applies to the population of women. Since there are so little women to begin with, though, much harder to come by talent of the same level.
Well, if genre doesn't matter, why do we not see a larger amount of girls? There in lies the biggest problem. People are constantly pushing gaming is hostile to girls, and combining that with their own experience with shitters early on, they lose the motivation to play those team games. No matter how much we be nice, its hard to uproot such a stereo type. You may think its very improbable that hide their gender in high end lobbies, but its extremely common on all levels of expertise. I know a lovely lady from indonesia who has 3k hours into csgo at global elite, 2k hours in apex legends, and currently getting into Escape From Tarkov. Not once has she said a word due to their reactions. She had the character and love for the games to push through the struggle, but, at the end of the day, if you have to do all of this for games, its no wonder why a lot of women decide to put their time into other things.
It was very lovely talking with you mate. Really cool to see you are at a very high level at smite. If I ever pick up that game, I will definitely know who to call hahaha. Alright my man, have a happy new years, and be sure to better spend your time than talking with a hungover dip shit in the comments lol.
It really sucks when content creators say "I will include the links below" but when I look there is nothing to see.
Both of the studies shown were looking at xp/hr, which is designed to be relatively even among all players - it's not a component of skill. There is some optimization that can be done, but that often requires lots of game knowledge, which again, is not a component of skill. Further, these studies were looking at average players - where you wouldn't expect to see a significant difference in play because the center of the bell curves would be nearby. In order to see a difference, you would need to look at the ends of the bell curve.
I speak on behalf of a foreign indie girl vtuber. I watched a few of your videos to the end, it was interesting:3 Here I get hate for being a vituber girl, supposedly I'm ugly, but I've never heard such a claim to guys. The market here is quite narrow, but there is little competition. But in general, it is difficult to break through, many simply do not like twitch, because it constantly causes scandals. But I like this platform. I am glad that I found a person who also takes streaming seriously and tells useful things:3
People need to take care when analyzing studies because your own bias seeps into it and you make the wrong conclusions. Fixing the variable for time spent eludes to the fact there is a gender difference. You can create any study to equalize genders or any other topic if you pick out which variables to fix. The study itself points to the fact males will spend more time in videos games than females; this is a gender behavior trait when it comes to video games; males have a higher interest in it overall than females and will put an insane amount of hours on average compare the females. So if you are looking at the EXTREMES of who spends more time and is going to qualify for eSports it's going the be overwhelming males that's just how statistics work, no amount of attempted inclusion is going to change that, however ; that doesn't mean those changes should not still happen. We should all support a no harassment regardless of which gender it is.
This is exactly right; and imo what is also not helping is the amount of women who are on Twitch and not playing competitive games but selling OF (which fuels the bias Devin mentioned). I think Twitch also bears some responsibility for allowing their platform to become a place where female creators sexualize themselves through ASMR or Hot Tub streams to and funnel viewership to OF as an alternative to creating quality content. The market will only take people as seriously as they take themselves. Some creators are even essentially training these responses from their viewers and are more than happy to take the money that comes with it - but not the criticisms.
Could the reason be that gaming is unwelcoming for female players? Multiple times I have logged off a game and stopped playing for the day after a match of harassed and singled out as soon as I speak in lobby. It's seriously uncomfortable and very unmotivating to log into a game just to be targeted. Sure it might not happen every game, but it happens enough for it to affect my motivation and my gameplay. Sometimes I'm not even allowed to play as the grief me or dodge queue. This happens to multiple women in gaming, the unwelcome climate could be the reason why women play less than men.
and now think about WHY it is that VVomen don't devote hundreds and thousands of hours towards these games, could it be, maybe just maybe, due to the fact that in life we are naturally drawn to the things that we inherently know we are good at or have the potential to be? Games at their core are an excessive in problem solving skills, something men do far better at, for evolutionary reasons, no doubt about that.
@@CheeryCherri I think this ignores the fact that men also get flamed online as well. I remember as a kid playing games and being called the F slur in the N-word all the time (I’m not black or gay that’s just what people do to piss you off). Online gaming especially competitive can often be very toxic. But to act like it’s just women that are getting this harassment is unfounded in my opinion. Yes, women are going to get heckled with different things than men do, but it doesn’t change the fact that either way you’re going to get heckled for something because that’s just how competitive gaming has always been. If you’re trying to say that women won’t compete because of the toxic environment then I would have to question. Do you believe that women are less mentally resilient when taking harassment? Because in my opinion, that’s what you’re implying. To say that women are discouraged from playing games because they get too much trash talk online implies that women can’t take the heat. I was 12 when people used to hurl slurs at me. Call me names tell me that they hope I die and all kinds of other awful things that they would want to do to my family. But even as a kid, I understood that those people were just rude people and that even if they annoyed me, I would just eventually get over it because that’s just the nature of competitive games with random people online. If you’re trying to say that women are not mentally resilient enough to deal with simple trash talk then I have no idea how you would expect them to take the stress of hundreds of hours of practice just to lose a game against someone you thought you could win. I don’t necessarily believe women are less mentally strong, but I do think your argument implies that.
I like the fact that Riot games is trying to even out the ratio between male and female playable characters in league (although I don't play it) and started right away with this task when releasing Valorant. The enemy is playing a female character so although I still hear them assuming the other player is a man, it happens they just say "she's here" and that changes something in their mind, being exposed to the presence of female agents. You don't have that in many competitive fps games. Also the stats shows that women play mostly female character, so having more choice, and not being stuck in a support role, really does help. When you're new to the game and you have to choose who to play, you go by looks, that's the only info you get in your first game. Then you stick with that character, because you're still new let's not add too much stuff to learn right away.
Let me guess, you're going to ignore overlapping bell curves. Tiny differences in trait behavior results in highly concentrated extremes. That is all.
Gaming is supposed to be an escape from the limitations of reality for everyone. Esports just adds competitive arguments.
esports is for getting serious, escaping reality is for casuals
@@delgadotonizas1481 Jesus cristo this response deserves to be etched in stone 🗿❤️
Advancing in MMOs has nothing to do with the ability to be a top esports player.
I agree
Yes, let's ignore the clip we just saw of a woman playing a competitive FPS and getting MVP.
Also, yeah, MMOs totally don't have any competitive elements in them or anything like that...
@@TalonBrush like pvp?
The idea women are equal to if not better than men at competitive games is the most nonsensical shit imaginable. I think it's completely possible, plausible, and actually happens where SOME women can achieve peaks the same way men can, but the idea women (the entire gender) are on average equal to men (the entire gender) when it comes to competitive games is absolute nonsense and no valueless study would convince me otherwise.
The extreme majority of the top chess players are men. The extreme majority of top FPS players are men. The extreme majority of top fighting game players are men. The extreme majority of top MOBA players are men. The idea that every single competitive game industry is just gatekeeping women out of them with sexism is absolute bullshit. You could at the slightest argue it'd be harder for women to get access to teamed esports due to there being a lack of synergy with males and females in a professional setting but that's a false argument because the implication of women being equal to men would imply that there'd just be an all girls team who would be just as good as an all boys team.
There's such overwhelming evidence that women are not equal to men in competitive games whether it be esports or not is overwhelming and the only counter to this claim is irrelevant paper studies or low IQ defenses that women are actually chad god gamers who are just too scared to make millions in competitive gaming because sometimes beta nerds are cringe on twitter.
the STEM example works for anything but competitive sports. Also, using a study comparing performance in MMO's, rather than a competitive shooter or MOBA, where reaction time and physical ability, would shine, is misleading. It sickens me that there is so much harassment in the gaming community, but even with all those unfavourable odds you would think in the last say 10 years eSports have been popular at some capacity, that we would have seen a crazy talented female player in any proper eSport dominate and become one of the best (at least in a t1/t2 team), yet there have been zero. I would love to be proven wrong, just seems highly unlikely we haven't seen a single female player at a high level.
So I personally don't give a s**t about the league or women playing, but I genuinely do not understand how a study can conclude that the difference comes only from time played. We have loads of female pro players who continue to put in and have put in hours that are on-par with current male pros, but no matter what female player you take, say in the CSGO scene, they will get absolutely mollywhopped by even a Tier 4 male player. Pro women literally used to struggle to hit Global in matchmaking, so Tier 40 could be more relevant.
ALSO - women can't compete with men in pro gaming because unlike STEM, the disadvantage they have comes from societal gender roles (through their parents) and it is not possible to make up that gap as you add time to it later in life. The evidence for this is beyond clear - female pros are getting paid and have leagues with semi-relevant funds, they're not good. They also have the right to participate in the male events, yet they never do. The expected value of a female teams' participation in a male event de facto is zero.
ALSO #2 - It is soooo misleading to refer to a Hearthstone female pro player like that is indicative of ability. You are replacing the main skill needed for most pro games which is hand-eye coordination with an RNG-decisionmaker combo. That example is the epitome of irrelevant - it's like saying Botez is a pro gamer. I believe there is 1 example that actually works for you, believe it was a female Overwatch or female Valorant player who made a pro league.
The conclusion of your video is entirely based on 1 false premise - that we can generate a "ceteris paribus" situation where we can control for the "time played" factor. The reality is that we can't and any game that is even in-part built on hand-eye coordination will always lead to male player domination since that is just what we grow up doing. Naturally this leads to other societal issues eventually through men having limited skills in a bunch of categories, but within the confines of this topic, this is not a relevant piece of the puzzle.
Then why the same bias is in the chess world. Women are thought to be not suitable for chess, said many famous male chess players. Is that again the eye and hand coordination that's the issue? Standard Chess is a slow sport! No. Its the bias. Somehow in every field there are excuses to write off women as worse. That's sexism my friend.
If there are 99 male players putting in 10k hours into a game for every 1 female player putting in 10k hours, and those female players that do put in the hours are constantly being discouraged, harassed, locked out of opportunities for practice, teams, etc.
Then obviously women are going to seem like they're just incapable of competing when the field is dominated by men, and even those 1 in 100 women who do put in the time and effort can't compete with the men that have more resources and acceptance in the field.
This seems like you're trying to debunk scientific studies with your idea of common sense when I bet you didn't even read the methodology or conclusions of those studies cited for yourself, you just look at reality and are saying "well obviously women can't perform well in gaming"
the lack of women who have made it to professional gamer status through exclusively their own effort in hand-eye coordination games rather than being on a sponsored female team or something means that we don't have the proper data to support your conclusions though, because obviously there's more factors in whether someone can be the best of the best than just the amount of hours played.
I'm sure there are total scrubs out there who've put as much hours into LoL as a lot of the LoL pros and just aren't able to get to that level due to other reasons.
Just because there are far less women in that category than men (to an extreme degree, let's be 100% honest-- almost no woman can no life a game as much as a lot of men do, it's completely socially unacceptable and frowned upon in comparison) doesn't mean that gender/biological sex is a restrictive factor.
And his conclusion isn't "entirely based on one false premise" either, because he additionally lays out the barrier to entry for women in gaming and the harassment they constantly face. I don't really agree with your assertion that the societal gender roles causing men to have more experience with hand-eye coordination means that women just will never be able to be on the same playing field at the top of the top either-- otherwise men in general with a lot of gaming experience or experience with activities that requires that hand-eye coordination would just be flat out better than women if all else was equal, but that doesn't seem to be the case (even though all else is never truly equal regardless)
TL;DR you seem to be arguing based on your opinions, views, and how you think things are, but not arguing with legitimate points of data. Opinions are great, but you can't disagree with studies and facts with just an opinion alone.
@@ankontini Yeah those pro's have never seen grass in their life. You could maybe argue that men behaviourally are superior for professional sports at the extremes, therefore even in chess they are way more likely to dominate female players because of competitive drive, narcissism, or some other masculine trait, but I feel like female athletes can take on these more masculine traits and become the best. Anyway, I do think chess is just the bias and aura around chess being a male sport/activity and women shouldn't bother etc etc. Still not comparable to a shooter game where reaction time and hand to eye coordination plays a big role, so your chess example doesn't make much sense in this instance.
For Hearthstone, VKLiooon is a woman who won the world championship back in 2019!
>She also went on to tell an anecdote about how, at a major tournament a couple of years ago, a male player told her she was in the wrong queue because "this isn't for you". Finally, she was asked what it meant to her to be the first woman to win Hearthstone's biggest prize: "I want to say for all the girls out there who have a dream for esports competition, for glory, if you want to do it and you believe in yourself you should just forget your gender and go for it."
Reminds me of geguri in ow who faced insane amounts of harassment from male pros in Korea
24:17 is she really good at valorant? i saw clips of her playing csgo with stewie and she was very bad
At the end of the day, it's not even about well/fast/aggressively/competitively women can play, it's just that they should not get shit shoveled their way for competing or even playing in the first place.
It is generally admitted that in any team sport, playing at home is an advantage, right?
The way it is, women NEVER play at home. And that's a HUGE understatement.
It doesn't matter whether the mean average male or female gamer is better.
What matters is that all of the top gamers are men because these are the ones you'll want to be watching on the screen. That said there are no physical limitations for a woman to become as good of a gamer as the guys, such as there are in every physical sport. Woman can and do currently play in the multi gender team leagues that currently exist.
It's possible that women just aren't as insane as the top level men to dedicate 14 hours every day sitting on a chair to become a top level gamer, and that's arguably a good thing. Men take risky behaviour a lot more. This is the same reason why CEOs are mostly men, its nothing to do with sexism and arguably isn't even a problem.
The only thing against the points that I've raised is that women might not feel comfortable joining a team with 5 or 6 guys, as they would if there were 5 or 6 girls, and that could be disuading good girl gamers from becoming e sports players, and females may want to watch other females in e sports because they can relate more, though the league will still have very low viewership because they aren't going to be nearly as good at the games as the generic leagues.
the main problem I run into, and I see is that women such as I did not get the advantage of starting gaming earlier than male counterparts. My brothers would game and I wanted to also game such as them. Instead, I was handed Disney princess games and wii sports. I would often ask for more games or different consoles and the response was way different than when my brothers were. If I wasn't so late to the gaming scene I feel as if I would be better as some of these men who been playing games as far as they can remember. I started gaming around 16, but even then, was limited due to my parents telling me they won't support it. even to this day when I say I want a career in gaming as a female both sides of my family keep telling me to search after different careers.
Videos like these are pretty boring, because most people are going to take the safest positions about this type of stuff. Just like with the streaming video there's not enough data publicly available to arrive at any conclusion really. It's always really strange metrics that don't mean much.
Where's the data for games like LoL, DotA, OW, CS, etc where we should be able to ascertain per capita rank statistics by X demographic? Not to get too tin foil hat about it, but this type of data seems like it should be easy to obtain yet NO ONE across the many competitive games seems to track and publish this data.
Also, if you're a woman who can compete at the highest level odds are you'd find more success in content creation rather than eSports and I'd imagine if you're going to have to deal with harassment, you might as well get paid better and establish your own brand.
is this a bait?
@@simppl5597 Not in the least. Why do you ask?
@@AxisZtv Because he can't address any of the points you have given so instead of confronting the content of your post, he is attempting to dismiss your post and character assassinate you.
I think you can look at the measurable things and logically form an opinion like 'well there's only 3 women in the top 100 therefore women are bad at esports' or something to that effect and that makes perfect sense. I simply can't fault that as a valid point. I'm not arguing that in this moment, women just can't seem to compete consistently at that level.
The problem is it's not addressing the societal cause that women have been, and still are, actively discouraged from starting or continuing anything. The barriers they must overcome when compared to men are more plentiful and difficult to bypass. Deep rooted opinions on what women are here for, assumptions that girl streamer = hot tub etc. etc. Men don't have to deal with the same type of problems, or even the amount of problems, and are actively encouraged to succeed in a society that's be been moulded to make men successful for hundreds of years.
I think I agree with your final point and see that as one of the many 'actively discouraging' techniques - for lack of a better word - that I've mentioned.
@@ZupaTr00pa This is why we don't want to use raw numbers. We already know women are under represented at the higher end of competitive bell curves compared to men. I'm more curious if there is statistical parity on the bell curve of women among themselves. For example if we look at 1000 men and 100 of them are Diamond ranked then all else equal (controlling for things like playtime, platform, role type, etc), we should see something similar for 1000 women. The problem is this type of data doesn't seem to be published. The societal stuff is a completely different conversation, but without the aforementioned type of data, we can't really do a cross sectional analysis.
I also don't think the societal (gaming spaces) conversation is one being had honestly. I will say MOST competitive gaming spaces harbor a lot of toxicity. They always have. Something like 75% of online gamers report harassment of some kind (I'll source this at the bottom). I don't know if it's the case that women receive harassment at higher rates than men. All we know is that the harassment is different, but for every rape threat, cunt, and "go back to the kitchen" there's also a slew of "kill yourself," you soy boy virigin basement dwelling neckbeard beta cuck along with various death threats (which btw some women engage in this behavior as well). As someone who has been on the internet for over 20 years, you have to get tougher skin, but as someone who wants these spaces to be more welcoming game devs/publishers need to take moderation much more seriously. While not all that competitive, there's a reason FFXIV boast having one of the best online communities, it's because they have some strictly enforced moderation.
Source: www.adl.org/news/press-releases/two-thirds-of-us-online-gamers-have-experienced-severe-harassment-new-adl-study
I am high up in STEM, a Principal Architect in the IAM field so generally when I work with people who are highly skilled, and when I look at the team members I work with, I can see the sexism that exists in STEM easily, and not by the number of women I work with (though it is there as well, not as bad as you'd imagine though). When I look around, I see men with a variety of skills some good, some not so good, when I look at the women every single one of them is an all-star. This isn't caused by sexist hiring practices, it is because to get this far in Information Security and be a female you have to be an all-star.
I agree with everything, however... having a separate league for women may not be such a bright idea. It further spreads the idea that women are not good enough be in the same leagues as men. And while having a separate female category will initially encourage women to play, it will not help women in the long run. Because if they can't compete with men who are better, because of their experience and exposure to the game, they will not be able to progress and get better skills. At least this is what the same issue in the chess community taught us. A few of the worlds best female chess players consciously stopped competing in women's tournaments because that was holding them back. For example Judith Polgar. We still haven't been able to solve these issues in women's chess. Women's tournaments still exist, women can compete in men's tournaments, but not vice versa. And there are women only titltes. Are these women's only privileges harming or promoting women in chess/esports? That needs to be discussed.
If you think that it further spreads the idea that women aren't as good as men after all the points made in the video, then that's on you and every other man who is misinformed.
@@xKumei whether women are as good as men or have the genetic ability to be as good as men are two different things. The difference between the two is huge. One of them is an objective fact, due to the fact that women have been ostracized and bullied in the gaming industry. Fewer players of a group with fewer hours played, leads to fewer successes by the group. The other is a sexist opinion. And by the way, I don't know many men called Angelina. Do you?
@@ankontini Yeah I didn't write that comment very well.
I guess to me it seems like the decision we have right now isn't between women's and "men's" leagues, but between having women's leagues or little to no women playing at all given the reasons outlined in the video. Do you think the solution is try and get more women involved in the main leagues in an organized way? Or do you think there just needs to be a focus on helping women bridge the gap between the leagues?
I don't really understand how your chess example harms anything, given that the women who are able to compete in the main league continue to do so. They aren't relegated to only playing there and it still provides more opportunity than would otherwise be there for other women.
We see this happen with every Women's League in existence. Soccer and basketball come to mind. The only place a Women's League dominates is volleyball, and I think we know why. Otherwise, women's leagues are underfunded, massively under represented in media coverage, and generally treated worse (see the many news stories about women's teams given unsanitary/dangerous hotel rooms).
@@xKumei I appreciate your comment. There is no easy answer to this and I am not strongly opposed to having womens leagues. However, my experience in chess as a female player was that in team championships where I had to play against a woman, the other teams frequently didn't have one on their team, or matched me against a child, or the put a novice woman against me so that they dont get a penalty. While I was winning without effort, my men fellow players were playing real games and becoming stronger because of that. The captain was also satisfied having a somewhat mediocre female player and never pushed me to prepare or something. I would win awards while men of my strength wouldn't ever get prizes. So why would I want to become better if I am already getting attention and prizes? You have to be very aware and you have to adore the sport as a woman to motivate yourself in a system that rewards you for just being there. And then the whole idea that circulated, that women are worse players than men, and there is nothing we can do about, as a woman you start to believe it. Because playing in strong tournaments is one of the greatest ways to improve. Keep playing against novices and you will never improve. Very few women have had the ambition to break that barrier and challenge the unattainable world of men. And they faced great obstacles. That is why I am not giving a definite answer. I think we just need to discuss more on the issue and decide whether we can fix these issues by concentrating on other things, like creating an accepting non toxic environment for women and maybe not laying so muh emphasis on womens leagues.
People forget that in Starcraft 2, one of the best zergs in the world was a woman for a long period of time. Scarlett made it out of the group stages in GSL (the most competitive league) in 2020 multiple times making her one of the best players as recently as a year ago. It's just a numbers/time game
Should I tell him?
Are you seriously gonna go with *this* spiel......? 🤦♂️
disparities in STEM are clear. in the usa females get 60% of the scholarships, grants, loans, "pre-approved" placement in classes and courses.
yet when it comes time to graduate only 6% (!!) stick it out. of those remaining 6% who didnt waste that funding, only 50% stay in their STEM field more than 2 years.
of that remaining 50% of 6%, another 50% (so now were down to 1.5% of the original 60%) will get preggers and leave to take car of their child.
then 50% of those (down to 0.75% now) will return after 2 years of childcare, but then another 50% (0.3%), will leave STEM again forever in another 2 years. from 60% of funding to 0.15% use.
Both your comments were great. Any source for the statistics in this comment? Would like to use it as an argument point myself with other people later down the line as it's a great statistic and exemplifies the fact that men and women simply make different choices lol.
@@Shadowh8ter seconded
That's some interesting data for sure. I'd be interested to know what the research suggests as to why that is the case.
@@ZupaTr00pa The early half of those statistics I'd attribute to women being less interested in things than men (you can find studies on this super easily, as well as studies done on babies to weed out the idea it's societally created) and the later half due to the biological fact that women are on a shorter timer than men, and naturally most women would rather stay with their childrens when given the option to because most parents regardless of gender would rather stay with and raise their child than work all day and miss like 80% of their kid growing up.
Men don't really have a biological timer because their sperm and lower half works for an extremely long time, arguably never stopping until extremely old ages, whereas women's biological timer starts to die down in their mid to early 30s and almost completely dies off by the time they hit 40.
Also statistically women date up not down, so a woman working on STEM who got pregnant is more than likely dating a man more successful than her career wise so it's no surprise out of the two of them she'd be the one to stay home and raise the child. That's also easy info to look up.
Getting a job in STEM has very little to do with ability. That has been the case for decades and will continue to be the case, except for women, because we just need more. It is much easier to tell if someone is good in sports/esports than in engineering and science.
Gaming should be the one sector where both genders can compete fairly.
they do…and women lose anyway 😂
This is an incredibly important and well structured video. Possibly one of your most important. No matter how good someone is or is not at gaming or streaming, regardless of race, colour or gender, no one deserves to be judged in a community that should embrace differences better than any other on the planet. We have a chance to be the leaders in equality. That will truly put esports on the map.
Yeah I think the problem of women in gaming is not so much the skill gap, but the toxicity towards women in general. We need to cut that out, then we can start to see representation because right now women are just too scared to join a team of all men. However this could just be solved by making a team of all women. Yet when that was tried the skill gap was so enormous that they didn't even get off the ground
@@pepsiman4418toxicity towards women in general? Who wins more divorce cases? Who gets harsher prison sentences? Who gets more government benefits? Who gets celebrated more? Who gets the schools tailored to them more? How about women just not care what society thinks and just play the damn game and get good at it?
Scarlett alone disproves this entire video. Game is game. Jessie Owens won 4 gold medals in 1936 in Germany, arguably the most hostile environment imaginable for a competitor. You are never going to convince people that leveling up in an MMO is equivalent to top tier competitive gaming. Billiards, chess, darts all have women's division despite no obvious advantage for men. I support you creating women's divisions and teams, and I think that's great. But to attribute known and measurable advantages to "culture" is nonsense. Also, of course any man or woman can learn to reach a level of competence in any game, and those cultural factors may inhibit populations of women from doing so. But top tier esports is all about skill. I once again refer to Scarlett disproving the entire premise of this video.
Let me know when you make a video advocating for more men in nursing and makeup sales Devin.
The only import in this video is as a lesson in what a "straw man" argument is.
Thank you so much for making this video!! ❤❤
How does looking at performance in MMOs tell us anything about performance in competitive games?
I think y'all in the comments, really overestimate reaction time when it comes to pro/high level play. Most high level gameplay has little to do with simple reaction time. 90% of y'all will see a sick play and say "nice reactions" when it was actually just a prediction based on knowledge from thousands of hours of play or previous actions made by the opponent in the game. I'm not saying reaction time doesn't factor in any way, of course it does, but I swear every single person and their mom will say "reaction time" and pretend that is the whole reason when it's obviously not the whole story to anyone who as reached a high level in any competitive game. There are men who are at the top of the games they play and they don't have better reactions than other men who are worse than them. Things like on the fly decision making, strategy, precision, knowledge checks, teamwork(if it applies) are all weighed way more heavily in most competitive games regardless of how important reaction times can be.
Cultural factors are the main reasons women aren't playing games and succeeding at the highest level. Now if those are ever addressed the top 5-10 best players of certain games may still be male due to "reaction time." It's an obvious possibility because the reaction time difference is a fact. However, if you think the overwhelming majority of top players in gaming being male is because "reaction times" you just aren't a good player or you fundamentally don't understand high level play.
This. Also, IIRC, fighting games have ways where you can punish players try to brute react their way into an advantage. The only thing in fighting games that comes to mind that high reaction speed gets you that yomi and game knowledge don’t is some hit confirm situations.
It's not cultural factors it's biological factors. Women are less interested in things than men. The study Devin tries to use as an argument completely backfires on him because he tries to remove the amount of time spent men dedicated compared to women. Men play games exceptionally more than women, which makes sense as women are far more interested in people than men are, and men are far more interested in things than women are.
Less time spent means you likely aren't going to be able to compete at the highest level. This filtering factor combined with the fact most women who play video games play more casual/social games results in an extreme, extreme, extreme minority of women from being interested in competitive gaming and being willing to put in enough hours to become that good at the games.
@@Shadowh8ter "Women are biologically less interested in things than men." is basically your entire argument and it's so incredibly ridiculous that I'm genuinely amazed you arrived at that conclusion.
Forget understanding games, if you understood biology you would understand that the environment can greatly affect how genes express themselves. So to even say "it's just biology" without attempting to address the environment is beyond silly. I don't understand why you even began to talk about social behaviors without addressing the society in which those behaviors are being expressed.
Men play more games than women because it's a socially reinforced behavior for men and not for women. This is obvious to literally everyone. Parent's reinforce it in early childhood due to learned gender biases. Greater society also reinforces it through media and advertisements. It's a self-sustaining system of reinforcement.
@@Kekkai_ Lol I hate these low IQ takes that anything you don't like is just due to society. These exact same studies have been done on infants and extremely young children with identical results to their older counterparts. Young girls are less interested in objects than men. I don't know which incel or morbidly obese cat mom put it into your head that women being more interested in people than men is socially constructed but it's objectively false.
I didn't even get into the fact that women are higher in trait neuroticism than men leading them to be less interested in higher stress/aggressive environments as they react to negative stimuli greater than men.
The most dent head take you could ever hold is that every single difference between men and women besides physical is environmentally created, it's absolute nonsense and nothing suggests otherwise other than none peer reviewed, never replicated, never cited studies made by 3 feminist college kids.
Also, reminder the more egalitarian and more wealthy a society becomes the more different the choices men and women make become. Your idea that it's socially constructed is absolutely unfounded because the poorest and least equal societies, aka the ones that treat women the worst, are the societies that have men and women becoming more similar in careers and life choices. To suggest women make these choices due to sexism in society is to suggest Sweden is one of the most sexist countries on the planet as it has the least amount of women entering male dominated fields, favoring female dominated fields such as nursing.
@@Shadowh8ter Jeez I wished you would have addressed anything I said instead of creating some strawman of my points. This is the problem with talking on the internet. Kids don't read. You attacked multiple points that I literally never said. You are acting like I would disagree with facts lmao. If you read anything I wrote you'd understand that I'm arguing that these biological factors alone don't seem to be substantial when our society is set up the way it is.
"anything you don't like is just due to society."
Where did you get that idea from what I said? When you have biological facts you have to take into account the environment. This means that you can't ignore the environmental factors. This doesn't mean that you should ignore biological factors. If you read my first comment I consider the obvious biological factors and acknowledge their possible effects.
"Young girls are less interested in objects than men."
If you know anything about these factors you keep bringing up is that these factors cannot account for the overwhelming male vs. female disparity in competitive gaming. Also to pretend like even these traits are purely biological is something not even the people creating these studies would say with certainty. So why is it so crazy to consider that a change in environment may lead to a change in observed behavior?
"The most dent head take you could ever hold is that every single difference between men and women besides physical is environmentally created, it's absolute nonsense and nothing suggests otherwise other than none peer reviewed, never replicated, never cited studies made by 3 feminist college kids."
Again, I never said anything close to this. Even in my initial comment I say that regardless of environmental factors there is probably going to be males succeeding at higher rates in competitive gaming due to biological factors. My point was the overwhelming difference is not something that can simply be attributed to biology.
"To suggest women make these choices due to sexism in society is to suggest Sweden is one of the most sexist countries on the planet as it has the least amount of women entering male dominated fields, favoring female dominated fields such as nursing."
And for the last time, I've never mentioned sexism even once in my arguments. What I was talking about has less to do with sexism and more gender roles, gender conformity, behavioral reinforcement, childhood development, etc. To conflate that with just "sexism" is again a fundamental misrepresentation of what I'm claiming.
Just because you heard other people make random arguments about some topic doesn't mean I'm making those same exact arguments. People are different. You literally sound deranged. Get some water. Take a deep breath. Read what I actually said. Then maybe get back to me. Regardless, if you think that these large scale socio-cultural behaviors can be completely hand waved by saying "its biology" you are literally not worth talking to.
I agree with the premise for the video but a big problem in the studies you pointed out are the game genre. Ofc women will perform just as well in a game like ffxiv to men as the form of progression isn’t skill based rather achievement based. I’d like to see a study into a competitive game genre like fighting games or mobas be used to support your claim as it’ll give the video more credence.
I also feel like a missing component to this video is how society views video games and more specifically competitive video games. I might be wrong but i feel like playing video games on your pc all day is more of guy thing than a girl thing in the sense that way more guys to tend to be like this than girls and this gives into the notion that because women in comparison to men don’t play competitive or pc games as much as men, that it in of itself means that women are inferior even if sex rarity has nothing to do with performance. It’s like the idea of bandwagoning but instead of calling women frauds for hoping on the wave late or assuming that women can only like dressing up, putting on makeup, or going out. It’s more along the lines of 19th century science where the justify sex bais by using extremely evidence.
Game studios like to show how inclusive and diverse they are, but there's a reason a company like Riot has never done something as simple as releasing a graph of the average male MMR vs the average female MMR and the average top 10% male MMR vs the average top 10% female MMR.
It'd take them less than 10m to produce that data, throw it into a graph, and post it to twitter, but we know that'd never happen because it'd show men having a bit more average MMR than women and it'd show the top 10% of men having obscenely higher MMR than the top 10% of women, and that'd go against the narrative.
I don't want to come off as a bigot here but I truly think including someone like Amouranth in this discussion is just highlighting the root of the issue you want to address. These women who are skilled gamers face hardship because they have colleagues like Amouranth. Some people will find it incredibly hard to take female streamers serious when the face of female streamers is sitting in a kiddie pool playing with a sharpie. They have to deal with people who see that content on the front page, as the face of their industry and in turn get ridiculed because they are being directly compared. I understand the whole "sex sells" but when your bringing that into an industry that it doesn't belong in, all you do is bring down the rest of the crowd who are trying to do it properly.
This is the equivalent of having a hospital where a handful of doctors get to work in a Hooters uniform. You're no longer a hospital known for your great doctors and life saving treatments, you are now known as the hospital who has the Hooters girls. Sure those doctors may be great at their craft but it's hard to take them seriously. This has become the issue with gaming and streaming. There are a handful of streamers 'posing' as gamers getting all the attention while incredibly talented gamers are constantly asked why they are wearing a black t-shirt instead of a bikini. The space has turned so sexual that's now the face of it instead of these women being appreciated for the skills and intellect they bring to the industry.
For the first time.
I lost braincells watching a Devin Nash video. Sorry, I don't agree in the slightest.
You can't say women are equal to men in terms of competitive game performance when you the study YOU CITED uses WORLD OF TANKS.
As the main reference point of study.
A game entirely irrelevant and obsolete to the major competitive esports titles such as League of Legends, CS:GO, etc.
Where is this "truth" you talk about? All I heard was blatant misinformation.
The video contained way too many generalities that were vaguely true and untrue.
I mean, I adree with you, but you should be surprise how not so irrelevant World of Tanks still is. Esport wise, yeah, it's not amazing indeed. But there is still a ton of active players. Far more than a lot of 5 stars games.
But, I agree, that's not a good game to take as an exemple because how small the competitive scene is in this game. I personnaly played in multiple major tournaments in WoT the last 2/3 years. So I know more than anybody else, that this game isn't really good for this kind of studies, just because the esport around it is just too small. We'll have a 130k cash prize tournament in China in few month tho, I am very hyped.
Who is trying to say that women as a monolith are worse then guys at gaming? A 7 year old boy?
Probably, though it's not exactly wrong when it comes to the main competitive gaming genres. It's a known fact women have slower reaction speeds on average than men and have slower twitch muscles than men on average, both of which heavily contribute to your abilities in FPS games, MOBAs, and fighting games. None of those are disputed facts and all of which contribute to average skill when it comes to gaming.
This doesn't mean a woman can't be as good as a man, it doesn't even mean a woman can't be better than men in any given game, it's just a piece to explain a broader trend that women perform lower than men on average in competitive games.
@@Shadowh8ter Even if they have slower response times you have to account for the individual females playing and control for other factors such as dedicated practice time, motivation, competitiveness etc. It's possible that a higher subset of men in general play games thus the ratio of those with sufficient motivation and ability is higher for example.
The fact may be that there are fewer females, but the causality is not established which is why he rightly brought up STEM science.
All that aside, what is the point of the assertion to begin with. An ah, hah men are better than women or that women should compete seperately?
@@trollingisasport You're right that due to there being much more men who play competitive games, and the fact men tend to put much more time into games leads them to perform at a competitive level for more often than women. I was simply giving an extremely mild defense of the idea that "women as a monolith are worse then guys at gaming".
I don't think it should really be taken as anything more than just a "well sure I guess" kind of statement. I do however think they should compete separately, tho not because of simply the biological reasons.
Regardless of the reasons women are just exceptionally worse than men at competitive games when it comes to the highest ends. Whenever a high end pro gamer girl is brought up it's almost always the exception in the game, not the rule, and there's few to none of them who can even compete at the lower end of the top brackets men compete in let alone getting close to the top of the men in the top brackets.
I feel like women should be allowed to compete in competitive games the same way women can compete in soccer. Have their own league where they can prosper. They will of course and rightly should make less money than the men (unless they get more viewership of course) but I feel like it's more of a problem to basically have little to no women in competitive gaming at all rather than have them in a separate league if they choose to do so. It's not like we just do this with physical sports. As far as I know there's no real biological reason as to why women perform worse at billiards than men yet there's still a female billiards league. For whatever reason women just don't perform the same as men do and thus they have a female league so they can still compete.
@@Shadowh8ter Yeah, I agree. I'm not against them having seperate leagues but I just hope people don't equate gaming with something like a physical sport in which the sexual differences might actually lead to physical injury or things like muscle mass have an overwhelming advantage.
Tell me how many women are in the top 1000 players on any major server? By the way you need 5 different roles. Can you gather 20 for 4 teams? I doubt that. Don't get me wrong in Starcraft 2 there is Scarlett, but its a 1v1. It's easier to draw 2-3 good female players. In LOL you need 5 (one for each role.)
Scarlett is a special case which can't be used because she was not born as a female.
@@abuseLV I mean he didn't say anything about transgender. Still counts by todays standarts same with Remila in LOL.
I really liked this video and how you presented it. I'll make it a point (even make a post-it on my monitor), to link this video to at least 10 people who I think would appreciate, or could stand to hear the information presented in it.
Honestly I've given up on trying to play competitively because of these issues - I actively avoid any game with voice chat. Before you even said your argument I was thinking to myself 'Its because we get pushed out'. I remember years ago when somebody announced an all female league team, that made me try harder, but it's just too much - I admire all the women who've succeeded despite everything, I just don't have that kind of willpower. I see a lot more women starting streaming now because they can be vtubers, but I feel it's just putting a bandaid over the underlying issues. I hope I can see change being made over the years! Thanks for speaking about this.
I’m commenting as I’m watching and to address your point made at like 13:30. The evidence of men being better at gaming was stated at the beginning of the video. Men are more likely to play more. Yeah they’re equal if they have the same time played but you definitely would see more men being on the game for over 24 hours than you would see women.
I want to agree with this video so bad but there’s a part of me that resonates with the having thicker skin. Yeah there is an issue in the gaming community but at the same time it’s an online community where people don’t even see other people as human entirely. People are hidden behind the screen which allows them to be they’re true self unapologetically and some people are just assholes. [talking about the streaming harassment, online gaming harassment] even decent people would try to verbally hurt someone if they were pissed enough. Everyone who plays fps games have to adapt a thicker skin. It’s a pre-requisite for playing a game that can enrage you. Some people curse to relieve that rage and others talk shit to other people. Not wanting to develop a thicker skin is a shoulda woulda coulda mindset.
@@iMistTheVoices The problem is that women have to develop an even thicker skin than men if they want to be in the gaming space as a woman because of the fact that women just automatically get treated fucking awfully by a sizeable portion of gamers who might not have that toxicity trigger flipped in other situations if it was just a lobby full of men (I'm sure there's a lot of crossover though between general toxic people and people who make gaming unwelcoming for women)
Being constantly dehumanized and debased for your gender on top of everything else you hear and see in gaming communities can easily lead women to just quitting because it makes games way less fun to have to deal with shitheads like that. Any way to make gaming a more positive space (for everyone) should be encouraged.
@@sere971 I can partially agree that women would have to have thicker skin than (white) men. But I can’t as a whole agree. I can’t speak from the perspective of white people but from my perspective the fallback jokes are always racism. I’m not saying that to say that my struggle is more or less than women but to show that I understand what it’s like to be dehumanized. (Something that Devin can’t relate to). And I’m still standing what I stand on;However, I do think it’s harder for women to develop thick skin because of how more tuned into emotions they are but I don’t think they develop Thicker skin. Especially when what I’m hearing from Devin is that they get told to get back into the kitchen or minor offenses like that. It’s still rude most definitely but that’s another reason why men are better at games then women because they don’t let those insults stop them from playing the game because they love the game that much. Typically
@@iMistTheVoices Forgive me but your point almost feels like the 'all lives matter' issues that was stirred from George Floyd's death. I agree that white western males are in the 'position of power' for lack of a better term. Any other race or gender is automatically placed below them. My point is we should be supporting everyone to be treat as equal as possible no matter what their situation or problems are and not comparing one group's situation as being more or less difficult than another. It feels - and again forgive me, I'm not trying to offend - but it feels like your point is closer to just infighting and not supporting each other. Earlier it was BLM but that didn't invalidate women in esports. Now it's women in esports and that doesn't invalidate BLM. Topics rotate into the spotlight but that's not the time to say 'but these people are treated badly too! Where's your support for them?!?'. I hope that makes sense.
@@ZupaTr00pa no offense taken. I didn’t mean for my point to be viewed as an all lives matter points. I meant it to show that my opinion isnt from an ignorance standpoint but from a point that understands the emotion of being dehumanized. Like I’d had to grow up with lynching jokes and stuff from randoms online. instead of letting that discourage me from playing a game I enjoyed. I utilized the muting/blocking or banning feature. I can imagine how it’d feel to be objectified and stuff on the game but if you are going to let the action of trolls determine how you stream/play a game. I don’t see a world where trolling or assholes are ever going to be moderated. To where your feelings are going to be safe. You’d need to, instead, develop thicker skin to be better suited in a harsher environment. I don’t see how “support groups” are going to make someone want to play a game and deal with the same issues as before. (Unless that support group is going to bully the trolls that they encounter) which doesn’t seem like a smart idea. If equality is to be established, it should be established with a mindset and teaching how to ignore ignorance instead of letting it influence your desire to play a game because that won’t ever go away.
Seems like Devon is inferring a lot from this early 1900s Harvard study. Women are constantly told what to do by people. Go in to STEM! Don't go in to STEM! Don't have kids and focus on your career! Have kids and maintain a home! This is a rare whiff for Devon, and also sort of implies that women as so stupid that they need to be propagandized to do the things you want them to do. Does anyone ever ask women what they want without coloring the data or the questions?
Get 1000 women and 1000 men to go through some FPS combine and then we'll have some recent data directly related to this, otherwise this is all speculation.
This is literally what I was thinking. I've conversations with My fiance and showed her how women are just treated lik their dumb being told what to do. I do not understand why not just let men and women choose what they want and not have propaganda for both and observe what they do.
If I could like this comment a million times I would. If I was a women in today's world with this media I would be furious on how everyone is telling me get a career don't get marriage. Do this do that. Oh you should get this you think this way.
Tell me you didn't watch the video without telling me you didn't watch the video...
Remember the all female League of Legends team that everybody made a huge deal about? It didn't work out... and neither will this.
The thing about these kind of videos is that you can find a ton of arguments to favor the theory of discrimination. But it becomes really hard to explain why woman simply aren't represented in high elo. In e-sports, sure, maybe the industry is discriminatory, could be argued. But why are the vast majority of high elo players male?
he literally answered that question in the video
clearly you didn't listen
Its also numbers wise there are more men playing in esports then girls but ultimately good is good if they are good then it will show at some point is a competition its just as of yet none/not many girls have got there
Thank you for pointing this out! A lot of creators struggle with growth, but as a woman I seem to not be able to gain the same level of respect as my male counterparts, even if I am better or more knowledgable, the men are still promoted more. And as the study mentioned, women don't support each other. I have been burned more by female creators than the male ones. It is really sad.
" women don't support each other. I have been burned more by female creators than the male ones"
If the past wasn't so heavily lied about, you would have known; women are women's worst enemy.
It wasn't even that long ago (less than 30years) that this was considered common sense and well known.
Don't know if you will see this found it a bit late but personally when you were talking about you appearance and your point being judged I feel that the way you present yourself shows how you see yourself not everyone ofc but someone like amoranth who sexulized themselves nobody told her to do it that way that's the way she decided to it and good on her but you can't present yourself in one way and then say hey respect my words and take what I'm saying with a informative mindset
Yeah I thought the same. If Devin had presented this video in a hot tub wearing a speedo I think a lot of people would take his opinion less seriously.....
you lost me when you said no one takes ammouranth seriously because "...hot chick..." hmmmm does it have something to do with what and how she chooses to stream? have you taken a look at some of her content in the past 12 months - 24 months? no one is taking her seriously because she is not doing anything seriously, she is not conducting her streams professionally like you are.
Men in the gaming world get harassment also, if they are playing a competitive game and for whatever reason are not good, they will let you know. I actually get "hate messages" while i play new world from people on my team, and others that i try and kill in the Open world, i havent told them my gender, but regardless, they are willing to be nasty.
my point is, acting like this is a one sided issue is not helping the issue.
so you know what i do? i block them and keep playing, if it is over an open mic, ill mute them. Great implemented feature others should use more often.
@@Atlantplay im not new at this game, been at it since launch, people are nasty towards people because it is a human thing to do. play a competitive game, people take things way to seriously.
16:00
based
😍
18:16 EVEN MORE BASED
Disappointed to see my comment was deleted/removed/hidden. (at the very least, I can't seem to find it anywhere)
I thought I was fairly measured in the coverage of my opinion without being offensive or aggressive.
Guy no one's deleting your comments unless you literally posted an isis beheading or some other dumb shit of similar severity
its either YT's censorship mod or more likely the person who runs the channel.
ive had entirely benign comments deleted as well.
@@Ryan11111 I said "deleted/removed/hidden.".
I posted a comment a few hours after this video was posted and it submitted without issue.
I even refreshed to make sure it's posted properly since YT does funky stuff whenever it detects certain words, irrespective of if they're bad or not.
It was there. When I woke up and checked back, the comment was gone. So yes it was deleted/removed/hidden.
Tough I agree that its a hostile environment for women the same can be said for men. Most epsorts games are toxic its fair to say that women have more than their fair share of this. However women just dont put in the time like the earlier study says when compensated for time they are equal but thats not how the top functions. The top players blast years of their life on a game to autistic degrees generated by a desire to be the best that most people will never experience. I dont know a lot of women willing to go the max on anything expecially with the newer generations coming who are more work-life balance aware than any generation thus far. I think women are smarter than men and realize that ambition and accomplishments represented in dollar amounts at the end of your life mean nothing. This is probably the reason why they are not willing to make the trade off you have to make it to the top.
the same can't be said for men because men aren't harassed in gaming on the basis of being men-- they're just harassed because gaming communities are toxic lol.
It's not the same because that other toxicity doesn't just go away because you're a woman-- there's just additional layers of toxicity and insults heaped on top, and you're discounted for an additional reason that men don't have to deal with. I do agree that women are far less willing (and less able due to social expectations, but that's a different conversation) to put in the sheer ridiculous amount of hours it takes to be the best of the best though, but the situation is very much a gendered issue for harassment based on just being a man or woman.
It's a fucking disgrace that Devin Nash has to say this in XXIst century. We still have lots to evolve and learn. Thanks Mr for saying TRUTH out loud!
I'm a woman in a gaming niche dominated by men (city builders & management games). Devin. Thank you. Thank you for being a voice that will be heard more then mine and saying the difficult things that I want to say. Your passion at 16:13 fills me with hope - maybe our children or their children will live in a world where we are finally equal.
Great video as always Devin. I would like to bring up one point that I have not seen mentioned. Women have different interests than me. The STEM field is a good analogy because you are correct that for a long time women were prevented from participating. However since opening up the field it remains male dominated. This is for the same reason the trades are male dominated. It is because women have the right to choose how they spend their time and dedicate their efforts. The reality is to get women to participate in male dominated fields you would have to remove their right to choose how they allocate their time. I for one have no desire to force women to participate in activities they don't desire.
A better way to evaluate men vs women in a field is not to start at the top. When you are comparing the most elite at something you will get a warped perspective. Women who are elite at anything competitive are far better than the vast majority of men. However in almost every field there are very few women who beat the most elite men. This is not limited to male dominated fields. My sister is a very good volleyball player and played in college. She will beat me 10/10 times despite the fact I am taller and stronger than her. However the Olympic women's volleyball teams will loose 10/10 times to the men's teams despite the fact that volleyball is a female dominate sport in the USA in terms of participation. A better look at men and women in video games in not esports but who is watching the RUclips videos and streams. Viewership is overwhelmingly male. Men prefer these activities to women.
In conclusion I believe there are girls good enough to compete on esports teams, but there are very few who have the drive to do it and that is okay. It should be up to them if they want to pursue esports. Men should not be gatekeeping and women should be given a fair shot, however it should not be a slight to women if they never hit the top. I am sure there is a woman would could go pro in League, but I would challenge anybody to tell me of a women would could be the next Faker.
It's like people forgot this discussion has already been debated and concluded. We already have massive global studies that have spanned across years with the results that the more egalitarian a society gets the less similar the choices and jobs of men and women become. The more free men and women are to choose what they want to do in life the less likely women will enter mens spaces and the less likely men will enter womens spaces, and that's one of the most factual statements you can make in the current year.
Sure, there are some interests and fields that are dominated by one gender. But you also have to keep in mind that removing gender biases doesn't happen overnight. Those biases are built into the system. If people tend to think one gender is better at x than the other, then the entire system will be geared towards that bias. The people who choose who gets scholarships and entry into schools, the teachers, the staff, the students, the people who hire for that profession, etc. will all naturally tend to assume "x profession is really for y gender because they are naturally better at it" and thus those professions will be harder for the other gender to get into, to succeed in, to feel fulfilled and happy and to enjoy their job. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. Even if one gender has some tiny advantage such as slightly faster reaction times that doesn't explain why that field should be so completely dominated by one gender. There are plenty of other skills that go into competitive gaming that women can excel at. The problem is that women are so thoroughly harassed in competitive esports that the environment is extremely hostile to them which makes it even harder to get ranked. Teammates are uncooperative or even team kill women when they speak on mic. If your team is turning against you just for being a woman how are you supposed to get as much play time? How are you supposed to rank up when you often get team killed or your team wont give you call outs? To be afraid to even speak to give call outs because there is a high potential you will get harassed for being a woman. To say nothing of the mental fatigue it takes to be constantly told to go make a sandwich, get in the kitchen, send nudes, etc. when you're just trying to play the game.
It boggles my mind how people cannot accept this truth. They rather believe the feminist oppression narrative, maybe because it feels like a morally superior point to stand behind. Thank you for stating it so eloquently here.
I agree that there is a bias barrier to women and that they are treated poorly online. That is undeniable, however what do you do about that? You can't force people to think the way you want. Efforts to force men to not be toxic toward women will only have a reactionary effect. And while there is a lot of negative treatment toward women online there is also a lot of white knights who take it to far the other direction. There is no good answer to toxic behavior online. It is far from exclusive to esports. Just look at the comments on this video, do you really think people would be this intense face to face? Of course not. There is really only two things that can be done to improve the situation. One there needs to be a woman who breaks though much like Jackie Robinson did for baseball. It is a extremely difficult thing to do as Devin highlighted but once it is done there will be more to follow. Second people need to accept that they cannot force the toxicity to go away, they can only control their own behavior. Individuals must choose to be kind a gracious and ignore the negativity.
@@darthvader8947 I certainly think it's a bigger problem than just esports, it's a culture wide issue. But esports could make steps to try to help women get into the sport more, and hopefully we will see some women break through, but right now the path to being a female competitor is so difficult a woman would have to be a damn god to succeed.
Moral of the video: Women can’t handle trash talk and men can. Evil women hating men In esports and the world just won’t accept women into esports.
I got this from this video because I know that men have racial slurs homophobic, and transphobic slurs thrown at them all the time in games, and they don’t quit. When I was 12 years old, I remember people talking about the awful terrible things they were going to do to my family because they got mad that I beat them in a video game. Yes, women get heckled for different things than men usually but that doesn’t change the fact that anyone that plays games competitively is going to get flamed by somebody at some point. Also, I find the fact that you say women aren’t accepted in esports kinda weird. If there was a woman that was good enough to play on some of the best teams in the world, we would see at least one. When it comes to games like League of Legends, overwatch and others there’s not even one girl at the top. Even with all of these obstacles that you believe exist for women, there should at least be one, but there’s not so your explanation doesn’t really tell us why there isn’t at least one. I know some rough girls that can definitely deal with the boys and the Trash Talk and stuff like that so don’t tell me there aren’t women out there that could deal with the toxic environment.
Not a whole lot you can attack you on your points even if I tried. My little sister and I have played enough Overwatch together to tell you, I already know.
If you don't I can't tell you how many times I've heard her told "get someone a sandwich" or to "get into the kitchen and do something productive" or "why arnt you healing girls can't dps." While they're dying repeatedly to something unrelated. Like blaming their shit gameplay on someone else is going to change something besides the player count.
I've played in a guild in WoW for years thats 60/40 f/m. Maybe I have a little insight. Three of the best players in the guild are female of varying ages. One of the best rated pve players on the server is also female. Shes in the top .1% in most of the things she does. Sex has nothing to do with how good you are at video games. Time and skill and luck are the attributing factors.
Is the bigger overall issue the toxicity in general? Because we can be pretty shit to each other and its just normal banter. Like we have to have some form of civility and talk. I've seen/heard grown ass men act like 10 year olds online over stupid and I mean stupid shit.
Is it that its not a normal for girls to play video games growing up and we need to change that? My sister is probably rare growing up playing video games. My mom kept getting her barbies and other girlie things while we were playing Super Smash Bros and Mario Kart.
One of the best things growing up was sharing my love of games with my little sister. I want to share this hobby of mine with as many people as possible. Its the most amazing medium for content.
You would think that most hobbies, guys would love for women to have an interest in from even a selfish standpoint. Arn't you tired of it being a sausage fest.
Gaming's landscape has changed quite a bit over the decades. Its constantly been the scapegoat of whatever a politician/news anchors agenda has been outside of having them be rated. I played Doom when I was 5 or 6 and still not a killer. Same with GTA(I was 13) and so many others. Not a satanist either.
I wonder if this is some guys "last bastion" of women free area. Like this is only for us. Even though a woman might have wrote the story and more helped with level design.
Speaking of women writers in games. Natsuko Ishikawa is probably one of the best writers to have penned words to paper. Please either go play Ff Shadowbringers or watch a video. You'll laugh and cry harder than a video game has any right to make you.
Devin my brain hurts....I know I went off topic alot but just don't understand all the stupid.
It's actually so easy to attack his video it's crazy. There's overwhelming evidence women simply aren't equal to men in competitive gamings, and there's a mountain of biological, non-social reasons as to why that may be.
He literally cites a study that talks about men and women leveling up in MMORPGs as a defense for how women can compete with men in gaming, and men still destroy women in the study unless you equalize for time spent per day because men on average spend more time on games than women.
This was probably the second worst video he's produced in the past year or so when it comes to research and knowledge on the subject.
Which DOOM and which GTa are you talking about..? No way you were grew up in the 90's and turned out so soft and so sensitive to some competitive shit talk... 🧚🏻♂️
@@movement2contact Its nothing to do with being competitive. Its about abusing your teammates because their genetalia. Getting someone a sandwich isn't helpful commentary in any damn game. Unless your lazy and can't get yourself food.
I personally am not effected by it but its annoying to hear the same stupid comment repeated because the brain is smooth on their end.
Though you had no intention of having a good faith argument. Just another silly comment because you automatically disagree. Probably because your ignorant on the topic or open to verbally abusing half the population. Either way on you dude.
I personally know females can do amazing in STEM my dad was the technology, engineering, and machine shop teacher at our high school and ran the Robotics program. He loved having girls join the program and how the girls could bring a different view to a problem. For many years he had award winning teams from many levels of championship and at minimum there was one girl on each team if not more. One of those was even my sister.
its called Personal Choice, they have the ability to go into Stem fields but they choose not to, youc ant force them and when not force they will not go to it.
its hard for a man to understand a womans life. the comments prove me right.
Thank you for this. I talk about this often and every damn time I mention the struggles I get told to stop acting like a victim, comments on how I look, and even someone that stalked me, when I approach the topic in a similar manner as you and speak about the issues not only directed at females but all minority groups within gaming spheres. Hell, the number of times I have been told to kill myself simply because I have noted the difference between male and female players in FPS lobbies is disgusting. This is a huge issue that needs to be addressed, so once again thank you for talking about it!
Once again, Devin Nash produces another amazing video with wonderful content and information. As a female in the gaming/streaming industry, it's not easy sometimes but I appreciate and value men in this industry such as yourself who put emphasis on this topic. Also, as a female streamer, it's challenging against other female creators as well considering some of the top women on Twitch are successful due to other topics besides gaming. I want my community to be about people coming and hanging out and supporting a stream where it's more about my personality and content than showing my body. No hate thrown to women who do that at all, it's just a weird gray area for those female streamers who choose not to do that and it makes people look differently at other female streamers/gamers. I feel like sometimes we don't get taken as seriously because of categories such as hot tubs and whatnot. Like I said, no hate at all women are free to do whatever they please. It's just challenging at times and frustrating being in that middle gray area but I wholeheartedly appreciate this video and thank you SO much for bringing more awareness to this!
I am heading over to follow you right now!
I agree with everything you said in this video, but 4 minute mile was kinda a bad example ironically. I get the intent in that example, but It kinda gives more ammo to the incel women haters in gaming, cause still no woman has yet ironically ran a mile in 4 minutes)))
It would be career suicide trying to create a study saying that women are worse than men at video games. The stigma comes from women entering tournament qualifiers and losing out immediately.
This. Are there women who can compete at the highest level of video games? Sure. Is that an exception or the rule? An exception. Women on average simply aren't as good as men at video games, there's nothing wrong with that. The extreme majority of top chess players are all men, there's nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with men and women being a bit different and people need to get over that.
@@Shadowh8ter I wonder if our society placed women above men for hundreds of years whether we'd see men struggle to compete instead. If every time a man gave something a go they were belittled and discouraged from even taking part. Meanwhile women would be told to push themselves and become the best. Would we still have this 'natural' divide between ability? Would men and women be equal? or would men still be better? I think for the biological factors then we'd see men still outperform on average but for things like chess or certain esports I think it'd be much closer, if not majorly in favour of women. I think it's the societal roots that are skewing and distorting everything.
@@ZupaTr00pa 1. Men weren't put above women for hundreds of years. Men and Women struggled together throughout the entirety of human history. Men and women are biologically different, and because of that it put men and women in separate roles. A woman isn't below a man because she stays home to take care of the children, that's equally as important as the man going out to work or dying in a war.
2. You make it sound like women have uniquely been disincentivized from entering fields that aren't normal for their gender. Hundreds of years ago you'd be criticized as a man for being a stay at home father while your wife does the work and brings in the money. You also make it sound like for hundreds of years men were told to strive and women weren't, this is absolute nonsense. Stop getting your perception of human history from morbidly obese lonely women in their mid 40s with brightly dyed hair.
3. Your idea could never be reality because men are high in testosterone, more assertive, higher in competitiveness, and lower in neuroticism than women which means yes, if men were pushed away from gaming they'd still be superior to women in gaming due to these biological facts.
4. You try to frame your comment in "past hundreds of years" yet gaming is like 30 years old, and mainstream competitive gaming is like 10 years old. Men and women are treated identically in society in the past decade, and there have been little to no stigma against women in gaming. If anything it's easier to be a woman in gaming now than ever. You can go spend a week working on a vtuber rig in vrchat or whatever other programs there are and get near guaranteed success due to being a woman in gaming whose not dressed up like as slut.
5. The more egalitarian a society gets the more different men and women become in terms of the choices they make. This means the more equal men and women become, the less likely women are to want to pursue jobs that are dominated by men. This is an objective fact, it's one of the most supported facts in scientific history, right up there with gravity. Your idea that it's societies fault women don't perform as well at gaming then men but that's quite obviously not the case. The reason why women don't enter STEM, the reason women don't play many games, the reason women rarely enter competitive games, all of which is due to the biological nature of man and woman. Men are interested in things, women are interested in people. It's no surprise men are the gender more likely to waste hundreds of thousands of hours being good at a video game and women more often than not are not willing to do such a thing.
@@Shadowh8ter 1. I think women staying at home was absolutely a sign of being below men, socially speaking. I'm not a historian but I'm pretty sure if a woman arrived at a building site 200 years ago they would not be well accepted by the male dominated space. Even today I'd say the same. Equally any man who stayed at home to look after the kids and let the woman be the bread winner would be seen as weak and it'd be implied something was wrong. I'd say we still see that as a problem today too, though on a lesser scale. That's the societal problem - that we tend to jump to conclusions and assumptions when in reality it doesn't matter if mum goes to work and dad stays at home or not.
2. Women have been as uniquely disincentivized as much as black people or transgender people - in other words they haven't. The point is anybody living in the west that isn't a white western male is going to have more problems navigating society in general. I think women have absolutely been told they can't do XYZ. Devin makes this point clearly when the Harvard professor stated that female mental capacity is less. This attitude has been and still is rife in society and, whether true or not, implies that women 'can't' and 'should not' and that man 'can' and 'should'. Women were, and still are, squashed into whatever boxes they were given.
3. That could be true for sure. I don't know enough to say otherwise on that one. Not that I'm an expert on any of this tbh. I linked another article elsewhere that mentioned the gap between reaction times is closing between men and women, possibly due to more women's exposure to things like racing cars etc. This is interesting as it suggests that the biological factors many feel are concrete may not be as set in stone as once thought.
4. This is not a problem unique to the past 30 years. Women must have gotten the ability to vote at the same time as men then? Men must have gotten the same paternity rights when women did? The way we as a society say that this is how it's done and push people around into 'just how it is' scenarios I don't think is right. 'Men and women are treated identically in society in the past decade, and there have been little to no stigma against women in gaming' This is fundamentally untrue for the reasons Devin states here and in his other video about women in streaming but also for so many other reasons across society. While I agree it's probably easier than ever to be a woman in gaming, that's nothing compared to how easy it is to be a man in gaming. 'near guaranteed success due to being a woman in gaming whose not dressed up' Again, I don't think that's true at all for the reasons in the videos and mentioned above. Your logic suggests almost every woman who is just wearing everyday clothes will get 'near guaranteed' success in the gaming industry which... come on. That's just not true. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you.
5. Yes I believe you're right about the egalitarian society part. However in this article it states...
www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-women-equality-preferences-20181018-story.html
“If you randomly take a woman or man from the U.S. or some other country, knowing this person’s gender would tell you very little about their preferences.” and that 'The [research we've done] does not address why women and men overall scored differently on these traits - for instance, whether this gender gap is biological or if it is imparted by the culture.' and finally that “We find enough variability across countries to indicate that people respond to the conditions in which they grow up”.
Now this is just one study, I may well be missing something huge (like a study that has specifically addressed the biological vs culture thing), but it seems that the egalitarian thing isn't as big of a factor than simply the environment in which they are raised. If I'm told every day, from a young age, I will never be an accountant by the people I care about and have influence over me, and the society around me says the same thing, I'm probably not going to be an accountant. To be honest, I don't really care if men are better at video games or if women are better. I care more about putting people into boxes they either don't want to be in, or don't know they don't want to be in just because 'that's how it is. Better toughen up and accept it'.
Please - I don't want to keep throwing more and more hours into this xD (why do I do this to myself). But I feel I'm learning a lot about the area and taking on different opinions such as yours and I appreciate the time you're taking as well. :)
@@ZupaTr00pa 1. Of course they wouldn't have. You're so privileged it's insane. You do know 200 years ago the average life expectancy was like 35 right? Do you know that? That the extreme majority of people never made it to the age of 40? Do you understand what that means? That means death is extremely common and the death of a woman is far more horrible for a species with a low life expectancy than that of mens because women can produce more children and men can't. What do you think people did 200 years ago? You think they were working in an office typing up reports? Jobs were dangerous 200 years ago, life was dangerous 200 years ago, you'd die from common diseases 200 years ago. Women weren't kept from mining in coal factories because "eww, disgusting women" they were kept from mining in coal factories because in an old society it's imperative women are kept safe and protected.
2. Lol women have been told they can't do XYZ, meanwhile there are diversity quotas giving women who don't deserve XYZ the XYZ because companies want to look like they have a diverse company despite the fact a minority of women want to work in the industry. Women are put down in society yet there's many, many, many female only scholarships and job openings in the country and 0 men only scholarships or job openings with the exception of like being a model for male clothing or something. Stop drinking the koolaid homie. The most egalitarian country in the world is Sweden I believe and they have the least amount of women working in stem and the most amount of women working as nurses, there's a reason for the most equal society in the West having the least amount of women in male dominated careers and it's because women don't want to.
3. Highly doubt it, and any article that'd suggest otherwise I'd be highly skeptical of their methodology, sample size, and repeatability. This isn't a diss on you but a reminder that a study means nothing if it's not repeatable.
4. Reminder that the majority of women didn't want equal rights when it was given to them as there were many privileges women uniquely had were lost once they were given equal rights. The idea that throughout all of human history women were fighting to work 40 hours a week, die in coal mines, and get shot in wars is nonsense. Also you citing Devin means nothing to me because Devin Nash is ideologically biased in this discussion. Do I need to remind you his study used for suggesting men and women are equal in gaming is a study that goes over how fast men and women level? Reminder that in the same study men were vastly superior to women in leveling until you controlled for time spent? He's not an honest actor in this discussion and nothing he says is credible. He praised amouranth when she's literally a cam whore that devalues women as a whole in gaming. As for your later point you're misunderstanding me a bit, but yes. If you are a woman who has the quality and ability to become a streamer and you put in proper effort and strategies to be a successful streamer you will become a successful streamer so long as you aren't entering a saturated gaming space. Literally dozens of vtuber girls get signed on every few months and they all get hundreds of active viewers with successful youtube and twitch channels, most of which are horrible at games or aren't that interesting but gain a guaranteed floor of success due to being women in gaming.
5. I've read that article and yes that researcher has no idea what he's talking about. Reminder that this is THE MOST repeatable scientific study with the exception of core truths like gravity and the world being a globe. If you have 1 study that shows these results then you could argue it's cultural, however these studies have been done hundreds of times across like two decades in essentially every single country in the world and it tracks that the less free a society becomes, and as well the less financially well off a country becomes, the more similar men and women become, and the more free a society becomes and the more wealthy a society becomes the more different men and women become. You can't honestly believe that every single successful country in the world regardless of language, region, and history EQUALLY oppress their women the more successful their country becomes. Reminder that to suggest this data is cultural and not biological is to suggest the least equal and wealthy countries in the world treat women more equally than wealthy first world countries. Men and women choose similar jobs more often in second and third world countries, or countries where women have less rights in law than Sweden, so are you implying in Sweden they're telling women to stay in kitchens and Saudi Arabia is telling women to get into stem and become doctors? The moment you think about the topic the moment the idea it's socially constructed falls apart because we know these countries treat women like shit.
Also as for your last last point, I agree nobody should be put in a box. If a woman wants to become a pro gamer I think she should be able to do so, and I think anyone who goes against her simply because she's a woman is an asshole. But I just also know an extreme minority of women put as much time into video games as men so the chances of a woman actually being that good is rare, and I know many people watch girl streamers simply because they're women rather than hate them because they're women, and I also know women react far more negatively to negative messages than men due to women being higher in trait neuroticism.
A lot of words and I don't expect you to reply to any of it as it's too much but there was a lot of info I figured you'd deserve to know about. I'd post links to back up more of my stuff but I've had probably 10 messages not get sent in the past two days in this comment section due to me posting links to articles of pastebins to my actual uncensored messages so people could read them and see the links.
After watching the video, I think the women's leagues should be just a transitory solution to create support network for competitive women, but the end goal should be to make them competitive with the "regular" leagues, until women can beat men regularly and the two leagues can be integrated. Otherwise I think the women leagues will be stuck forever with the stigma taken from physical female sports(that women are inferior in strength) and thus the regular(male dominated) leagues are the one pushing the boundaries of competitive play = always less watch time for the female leagues.
I also think it needs to be done carefully and slower rather than faster, so the achievements of the women speak for themselves, rather than being pushed artificially forward with just a PR stunt. Setup proper groundwork and support network -> establish regularly scheduled matches between the two leagues -> as women's experience grows and world-class talent is found, they should penetrate into the regular leagues -> eventually gain enough respect that women are no longer looked down upon (so even a sexist manager will not have any arguments left when a female(s) obliterates his lineup in a competition) -> exclusively-female league is no longer needed.
@The Real Joe do you have proof of what your claiming
@The Real Joe so insults instead of actual proof
@@RhodesianSuperiority it depends on how big that gap is, reflexes aren't the only factor in esports
Nice video but your headset is weird
Been catching up on your vids today. Love this one, 100% spot on. An absence of "evidence" is not evidence to the absence. But my guy, I gotta say with love, it's Har-vard not Hard-vard.
There’s a bit of a difference between Anne and amourath… one plays games, the other runs a cam show for 13 year olds. I feel Anne’s pain, but unfortunately the top female streamers on twitch aren’t actually “gamers”, which causes the “women suck at games durr” stigma
THIS! I agree 100%. As a female streamer/gamer, those types of streams really make it difficult to succeed because of my morals of having a community of people who enjoy my content and personality rather than hot tub streams but that's no hate to those types of females at all who do that, it just creates this weird gray area of us being taken more seriously because of those who choose otherwise. Idk I get hate sometimes for having this view but it's either females are laughed at because they hear "female streamer" and think I'm in a hot tub but in reality I hang out with my dogs and community and laugh at my expense so yeah.
@@tinktribe1251 it’s a matter of time and place. I think twitch is for younger audiences who realize sometimes watching somebody with an interesting personality play games at much higher skill levels than their own. Games are fun and bring us together. It seems the “just chatting” sub genre is doing everything it can to take that away. TIME AND PLACE
While i have always been 99% convinced that gender makes no difference to your performance in-game, you also can't disregard the fact that making a study that would even suggest that women could have worse performance potential in video games is very likely to get fired these days. Once you go past the news and to the universities themselves, you find a general justified fear by researches, no matter their gender, to publish their findings if they were to find non-males to be objectively disadvantaged. Cancel culture in research fields is a loooot worse and prominent than it is on the internet and people are losing their jobs over this.
It's kind a fact gender makes a difference in gaming performance when it comes to most competitive games. It's a well known and accepted fact men have faster reaction times and faster twitch movement than women do, nobody debates that fact. Whaddya think snapping onto targets in FPS games and reacting to 7 frame jabs in fighting games is? It's reaction time and twitch movement.
Nothing wrong with women competing in video games but there's a reason even when it comes to online tournaments, even online 1v1 tournaments for essentially any competitive game genre it's 99% men, and that's just because men at the top of the bell curve are far better than women at the top of the bell curve.
Men and women aren't just different when it comes to physicality and people gotta get over that fact. Men and women on average have around the same IQ's, women on average being a bit higher than men. However when it comes to the LEAST intelligent people it's almost all men, and when we go to the MOST intelligent people it's almost all men. Men and women on average have similar temperament and rates of violence, however if you look at the LEAST violent type of person they're almost all women and if you look at the MOST violent people they're almost all men.
@@Shadowh8ter the biological differences can be both positives and negatives, im not sure which outweighs which and i think it might be near impossible to tell. However academic cancel culture hurts females so much. Sure you get "protected" from negativity, but that also shields you from a productive acceptance of your differences and you are being robbed of the ability to work on yourself in the best way possible since making research towards that would be labeled sexist and you would just get your papers erased or even get fired.
@@MyPlaylists22 100% agree. Academic cancel culture is a plague and it's the reason why a decade ago I'd pull out studies and paper when I debate and now studies and papers have become near worthless in most topics due to academics being regulated so heavily on ideological grounds.
Not saying this is video is incorrect, but the "harassment" Anne deals with is typical regardless of sex, but apparently it's a bigger problem because she is female and it's 2022.
I'd say that in COMPETITIVE esports, women just don't have the drive that males do when it comes to wanting to improve and win.
Sexist
You know, that might have something to do with them getting a bunch of shit just cause they are female.
The gaming community needs to better themselves
@@andrewhenshaw4067 People will have detractors in any major thing they do. The fact that women suddenly claim that they can't improve themselves due to "male gamers being meanies" shows they had no real drive there in the first place.
have you even watched the vid
@@MarieTheOstrich I have. It was ridiculous.
I don't know, Could the patriarchy stuff actually be real?
I study a STEM carrier and the same under-representation occurs and I don't know how to think about this.
PS: didn't know he was going to talk about it, lol.
PS2 (subjective POV): well... the thing with STEM is a bit more complicated I would say.
In my area, women tend to be more widely represented in fields like astronomy or astrophysics and hardly in pure theoretical physics or abstract math.
The _actual_ biggest reason IMO why there are so few women in any _top .1%_ of anything(except where pure physical strength is a major factor like some sports) is because women are more risk averse than men. Testosterone makes men take more risks, that's why most criminals, ma 55 sh0 ot 3rs, the top wealthiest and homeless people(in western countries) etc. etc. are men.
Does this mean no woman will ever take the same risks as men, which is required to reach the highest of hights and lowest of lows? *No.* Obviously not. It just means that the percentage will be lower.
Does this mean that women as a group inately have issues entering the _top 5 or even 1%_ in anything not related to raw physical strength(let's say after we ironed out most of the unfair disadvantages)? *No.* It only means the _absolute peak .1%_ will have more men.
Do the issues Devin bring up here make it harder or less likely for the average women to enter certain fields? Yep. But it's absolutely not the reason why there are very few women in the top .1%. The women who do reach these insane hights in any field(99.9% of men also don't reach this height, obviously) wont be deterred by silly things like other peoples expectations. Just like the top .1% of men in these fields don't give a shit about all the people who try to tear them down.
To reach the top .1% of anything you need to sacrifice _a looooooooooooooot of time/patience/health/sanity/opportunities etc._ to get there, and even if you do sacrifice that time(and all the rest) there's an incredibly low chance that you have all it takes to get there(including biology, physical and mental health, mentality, circumstances etc. etc.). Hence the risk is very high if you care about having a secure financiel life in old age.
Someone saying that whatever you are don't belong in the thing you are willing to sacrifice everything for is not going to deter you even a little bit. These people are _incredibly rare._ Hence why there are _so incredibly few people_ going in and out of the top teams etc. compared to the absolutely insane amount of people who play those games and want to be able to earn a living from playing them.
If you've actually spent a large amount of time in online games you know that _everyone_ gets treated like shet unless they find a group that aren't like that and stick with those people(unless you're just an average player that never says anything). People who want to insult you because they feel bad about something will use _anything_ they can to make you annoyed, if you're a woman they will use that because women tend to be sensitive about it(we shouldn't encourage this btw). If a woman isn't sensitive about it they will try something else against her. In games where my username includes my birth year I get called old and gross by those kinds of people. If they know where I'm from they will attack my country(Sweden) and use stereotypes about it. If they know what other games I play or what I prefer to play in the game they will attack that. Part of me enjoys the challenge of making them mad when they're trying to make me(or someone else) mad and out-arguing them so I probably encounter this a fair bit more than your average gamer~.
All the women I befriended in games had no more issues then me being a decent player and wasn't having any extra issues with toxic people just because they were women, the issues and opportunities they had were just slightly different. Am I saying there are no issues with being a woman and playing video games? No. But there are positives as well. There are also negative aspects of being just another dude...especially if you're not very good at the game.
Anyone like me who has ever pretended to be a girl in a video game(Tibia for me, when I was a 12yo) knows that there are some pretty neat perks that come with it(you can also see this by just playing with girls/women who are average gamers in terms of skill). You will be much more readily accepted into groups that don't like toxic people without having to prove yourself, cause most people view women as less toxic(which is a complete myth btw). People will help you out without asking anything in return, even give you a decent amount of resources, mats etc. that you need without requiring a big favor in return. Not to mention people giving you their time in form of helping you understand the game or tanking for you in wow or helping you with quests etc. Does this come with the risk of some of them being creepy? Sure, but most games today have all the tools you need to get rid of these people.
Also Devin's point on nobody caring _at all_ about how you look or speak etc. as a guy just isn't true. The halo effect(and its opposite) is very much a thing for men just as well as for women and there are plenty of people who aren't hormonal teenage/early 20s turbo c0 0mers who will treat a women they don't find attractive as just another human. Not to mention all the shet you get if you sound young or old or have certain accents(including regional english accents) or timid or too forceful etc. etc. in VC that isn't related to gender...
_If anyone actually read that, you must have some serious patience, my friend :3_
_I get that part of the reason Devin made this video is to debunk the clowns who _*_actually_*_ think wom. en are mentally d3 ficient but I don't think that's the meat of the issue of why the top .1% of performers in anything are mostly men. As I laid out above. Have a nice day ^^_
_Edit: and what I mean when I say .1% is obviously highly dependant on the field/game etc. and in most cases I'm actually talking about the .000001% or something to that effect._
What is "Hartford" University?
I was almost worried I wouldn’t have anything to watch. Then Devin came in clutch with the upload
Seriously. Starting off my 2022 with great value and content as usual from Devin
Can’t believe this video needs to be made in 2022, but I’m grateful you’re willing to do it. 💯
Ironically in physical sports.... women DO perform worse than men due to their physical disadvantages, quite obviously, which is why there's been a huge debate about whether trans women in female leagues is actually fair to biological women or not. Yet that hasn't stopped calls for more gender representation in Soccer, Equal Treatment and Pay, even though women's tournaments don't pull in as many viewers and therefore ad dollars as men's leagues. So this little exercize of trying to find a study that proves women perform worse than men at gaming would make zero difference to the current push for more gender representation in gaming and eSports. If there WAS a study that did show women performed worse than men at gaming... you would still make a video about it, just with a different point.... saying perhaps that women are performing more poorly due to the lack of female role models in eSports and the lack of encouragement/sexist environment etc... so honestly it's just theatre... there IS no study that would disuade your opinion that women need to be equally represented in your industry, which is perfectly fine... just be honest about it rather than trying to Google studies showing women perform worse when there simply isn't one.
eSports do not require physical capability, so much so that no matter how physically fit you are there's no difference in performance. So why on earth is there a women's league? If women are just as capable as men.... then what justifies women having their own league other than merely excluding men? There are no "men only" leagues despite men being over-represented in eSports in general... there is no league that will openly turn a woman, or a female team away solely due to their gender, that would be viewed as extremely sexist and childish... yet rather than leading by example, ESL are segregating women into their own league despite NO evidence of women performing poorer than men according to your research Devin and therefore no justification on why they can't compete WITH men in an all-sex league.
IF there WAS a study showing women perform worse, then that would be justification for women having their own league.... so that they are equally represented and protected in the competitive arena... except it seems you want say that both 1) Women and men perform the same in gaming, they are just as capable as men and 2) They still need their own teams and leagues, it makes no sense. All this does is make the women's league a "side-show" to the men's league, whether you like it or not eSports viewership is predominantly men.... as seen in physical sports..... making the EXACT same mistake as the physical sports world did.... and look how that turned out, women are paid much less, not watched as much etc. I respect your passion for this but you can't "force" this to happen... no matter how many talented and capable females you know in the industry... as long as men are much more interested in gaming and women are more interested in beauty.... you will never ever truly a completely equal industry, and I don't mean just in terms of equal representation, or viewership or equal pay, but everything, 50/50... you also must ackowledge that's due to women themselves making that decision... most women couldn't care less about playing competitive gaming let alone in eSports... women will make decisions for themselves regardless of what man tells them to "get back in the kitchen"... I think women... like most people, are strong minded and wouldn't let that stop them... to blame men for women making their own decisions is counter productive. However there are never any calls for equal representation for women in the street cleaning industry or construction or lesser well paid industries... not a problem, but CEOs.... well now that's something people care about representation wise.... there's quite a seeping amount of "classism" in these kinds of topics that most people seem to be unaware of apart from those outside the elite/media upper class Califnornia/Austin bubble... only the billionaire CEO positions, millionaire eSports competitors, multi-millionaire sports athletes, TV hosts who are seen on prime time and actors in movies matter.... all the lesser-paid peasentry roles seem to matter much much less to this conversation and I think this undertone of what's NOT talked about rather than what is.... is the reason why a lot of people push back on this conversation all together... because it's not really about... women, or race, or LGBTQ communities at all.... it's about... look at the roles the elites take up, look at all the people who never have to work a 9 - 5 jobs in their lives again... let's talk about diversity in those roles... because honestly who gives a shit about whether the plumber you call to fix your leak is either a man or a woman.... you don't care as long as they do the job well and they take the least amount of money. It's... rather telling about how industries that take up such a small percentage of most workers.... are getting the most attention here.... merely because they are high paying roles.
What a fantastic comment, and you made a great point at the start, the fact that despite women obviously being physically weaker to men people these days still push for women to compete in male sports. 100% stealing that argument point.
TLDR
Just like in real life.
The majority of women don't put in the same amount of time and effort as men.
What else is new?
Shush the wage gap is real and so is this problem. keep your sextisms out of it. /s
@@masterlinktm nah women don't have it in them to create and innovate its not in their biology stop living in disney world my man.
@@BMartinsGamingExpo . . . .you have no idea what /s means do you?
@@masterlinktm it went over my head my bad
@@BMartinsGamingExpo It happens ^_^
His headset’s weird
This comment section sucks and is a massive letdown. Thank you for the video. I'm writing my university thesis on this issue as a game developer and a gamer. These issues need to be addressed more and this topic needs to be spoken about more. Solid video. Thanks for speaking for women, because you know we won't be heard
Any good recommendations for getting into this topic academically? Other than Jane's (2017) "Misogyny Online" and a couple of general research papers about gender-workplace dynamics in the tech industry, I don't have much on gender and gaming, specifically.
I just wish everyone was like me... I don´t care if it´s a woman or man... and i dislike supporting one party over another. Simply because in my head, if a person, no matter of gender, belief, sexuality or what not, does a good job at what they are doing, and i am looking for that type, then i will (rather would since i don´t run a company) employ them.
Super important video this, perfectly communicated as always. 🙌
A women player that comes to mind for me when it comes to esports and pros is the player Karma(Rocket League) who is currently on Relax but most notable was on Splyce. She is a good player and much better than me. She has played in Lan events and has been a pro since 2016. Although she may not be within the top seeds for player in NA, she has still preformed and is much much better than 99% of rocket league players.
“They are just as good when you account for time played” - That’s the same as saying that they aren’t as good. If you aren’t willing to put in the time you will never be top 1% of the 1%.
I worked out pretty hard one time. If you account for time worked out, I could be a bodybuilder.
I've said this before and I'll it again. Good luck finding women who are willing to put themselves through 50 hour work weeks, all the stress, blood tears and sweat just to have a shot getting top 16. I get it, we all want women to compete with men in Esports, but I can guarantee you that even if they start "Competing" it's going to be a very long time before they stop getting 30-0'd in 20 minutes in league of legends.
Thats what im saying. most guys wouldn't even do let alone woman. Theres a reason there are more poor than rich because becoming rich takes sacrifice.
So basically you just said that women perform worse because they have worse self-esteem and that society needs to change instead of the individual women themselves. It's always society's fault instead of yourself.
Who’s the girl in the thumbnail?
Timestamp 19:30. I understand that's its hard to be judge because of your looks. But certain content creators use their looks as leverage and how they make fame. That's why people assume that. We assume things about amoranth by her looks because her brand is based on that. Alot of female creators awesome and they have a hard road and do amazing work. Like poki. But poki doesn't also run her brand off her look so people don't make those comments towards her. My point is amoranth gets the assumption/stereotype because she upholds it.
I'm pretty sure Poki gets exactly the same kind of comments as Amouranth because she's female. I don't disagree that Amouranth uses her appearance to help fuel her success but the assumption of anything other than 'hey, she's hot' based on her looks alone IS the problem here. There's the feeling that they're taking the easy option, they're cheating the system somehow and they're just softcore porn dolls and not humans. Anybody not thinking with their genitals or with outdated opinions has to realise this. These girls work incredibly hard and the persona they do or do not portray is only that. Devin often says don't hate the player, hate the game and Amouranth is one of the purest examples of that.
@@ZupaTr00pa I agree with the saying don't hate the player hate the game. How can Devin protray that amouranth is like some hero or cares that she gets these comments about her appearance. My point being is the stereotype will always exist because amouranth keep proving them right. I personally don't have any negative comments about poki because it's like damn you worked hard to hit immortal in valorant. How can amouranth sit here and be upset about people making comments about her appearance when that's her entire brand.
@@minecraft3114 I understand what you're saying. I guess it hits harder when all the comments are based on appearance - genetics and semi-uncontrollable factors - vs the quality of the content - almost entirely controllable. If you think back to times where you or others were bullied because of how you looked and think about how that would make you feel. I personally remember, vividly, times where kids would do this but don't really remember times where people said my point that I made was stupid. Does this make sense? I think that the visceral feeling that kids had when they were told they had big ears or were ugly is the same these streamers feel today. That is incredibly draining to hear every single day for years on end.
I don't accept your view that Poki hitting immortal is somehow more or less impressive or successful than what Amouranth is achieving in general. Amouranth's success is unprecedented and entirely valid. She's financially well off, her skills as a content marketer are better than almost anybody else, she pulls a consistent 10k viewer average... this is not luck and should not be compared to achieving immortal in Valorant. Your point just feels like a way to just invalidate one success over another when we should be celebrating and encouraging the varied success of all women in the industry.
@@ZupaTr00pa your saying that amouranth success is valid. But her success as a content creator or marketer is based on her appearance. How can amoranth talk about how it's hard to be a content creator and how she deals with sexist comments when she used sex as a way to market her content. It's not right for people to judge women about their appearance or judge their value based on looks. But that's all amoranth has done. It just feels like Devin protray her as this girl who cares that's its a toxic environment. Amoranth contributions to the stereotype by making content based on her appearance. Rather then skills
@@minecraft3114 I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I strongly believe if Amouranth were to completely lose her appearance in a fire or something that she would be able to pivot into something else and still be successful because of her knowledge, skills and work ethic. It feels that you fundamentally believe that because the content is based on appearance, Amouranth needs to just accept there's going to be sexist trolls and that abuse in this industry is just how it is and if she doesn't like it she can just lump it. This is not how it should be. At all. Amouranth could spend the next 2 years getting immortal in Valorant and I guarantee she will be getting exactly the same abuse. Poki gets it. All women get it. I understand why you would think that it looks like she's perpetuating the stereotype but that is only a surface level understanding based on the rooted opinion that Amouranth's style of content is simply not as valid as other people's. We as individuals don't get to choose what people watch or what good content is. I might not agree that sexualised content is appropriate for Twitch but that doesn't make it any more or less valid or deserving of abuse.
Well done!
I dont get the whole "harrasment" thing men face nothing less just take a look at joispoi24's videos he has like 100s of videos of pp ltelling him disgusting things
because women are self victimizing cry babies that blame others for their failures
well said sir! support girls in gaming! stop the harassment!
Hafu is one of my favourite, most inspirational streamers. She just works so so hard to get where she wants and doesn't give a **** what people think of her.
I just finished reading the first paper you cited and the methodology is incredibly flawed. In both games, the primary metric for assessing performance was experience gains per hour, something that says almost nothing about a player's skill.
Most charitably, the methodological flaws here can be viewed as a product of ignorance (an honest mistake from people who don't play games). However, someone less charitable might argue that the researchers had clear ideological biases clouding their judgment.
Honestly, my money's on some combination of the two. But either way, this paper doesn't address the perceived skill disparity between men and women in gaming.
bullshit, men in general are just not interested to watch woman sports cos they want to watch best vs best, so woman sport does not make as much money from advertisement and merchandize, that's it, you cannot force me to watch something i don't want to, and until this stands true you can simp as much as you want but woman sport will not be as popular as men sport unless woman teams start to actually win some games
I honestly believe the bias is only because there are at MOST 1 girl gamer to every 10 male. And of that 1/10 not even 1 in 100 spend as much time gaming as a male does, meaning they will not have as much time put in, and the end result is 1 good female for every 100 good guys. thats not a bias, its simply a fact. so the odds of running into one of the equally good females is abysmal.
So basically women perform like weak men when under pressure?
Sorry, the study that shows they're worse in video games is the past 20+ years of competitive gaming with next to zero accomplished females.
Not saying they *can't* but it's plainly obvious that they're unwilling, for whatever reason, and a soon to be failure of a spinoff league in the vein of the wnba isn't the solution. It has been shown in traditional sports that both men AND women are uninterested in women only competitions that are played at a lower skill level.
fax.
if they were top tier competitive and could handle the climb to the top they would be there already.
there's nothing holding them back other than skill and excuses.