Thank you , Mr Hirmer. The ultima point of khatra is that the bow becomes the extension of your hand, invisible, and the arrow is the will of the archer, hits wherever his mind fixes up on.
I had watched another of your videos on the same subject where you stressed not letting the back of the Arrow strike bow riser. I worked on it this only adds to my understanding thanks is an understatement
3 месяца назад
I just wanted to thank you for all that you have taught me already. I have been shooting for about 8 weeks now after not picking up a bow for 45 years. With your help I am improving each and every day. Shooting 90 to 180 arrows a day. So much fun. You are a fantastic teacher !!! Have a fun filled day, Alex
I am very new to archery and hope to receive meditative benefits from its practice. While I am not qualified to comment on this topic as everyone here forgot more about archery last week than I even know, I must say that i do appreciate everyone sharing their perspectives in an intelligent manner (mostly) for the benefit of the archery community. I look forward to working my way through all of your videos Sir. Thank you for sharing.
Your counsel with regards to kahtra and the eastern thumb draw have helped me immensely. I have found your videos very thought provoking and helpful. Thank you for you postings!
Even ignoring the momentum and power argument, I think it might help in another way, which imo makes it instinctive in many cultures. For stationary target archery, honestly I don't see much of difference since all variables are minimised or nulled, and what counts is the precision on a fixed target. But if you're hunting or at war, not actually fully drawing until you actually mean to realease allows you to save on stamina. And if your target is a moving one that can change distance, with arrows that aren't produced identically with machine precision and mathematically calibrated to your bow which draw weight is not mathematically designed and known, khatra is there helping you minimise variables another way.
thank you for this explanation. Iv'e been preaching the (almost) exact same explanaton for a while, great to see there a like minded archers out there.
It's a good explanation if true, but would like to see it measured. Shoot 10 arrows static. Shoot 10 arrows with khatra. Measure the speeds with a chronograph. Take the averages. Is there a significant difference? If there is, then you can't deny empirical evidence. You said some numbers, but you didn't show you measuring.
Thanks for another insightful video Armin, for someone who used to shoot Olympic style then got into traditional some years ago and just got my first couple of Korean bows this helped a lot Im struggling with thumb release, so I was shooting them split med an doing oķ but the bow motion wasn't hard to remember and really helps to tighten my group's at 18 yrs and feels a much cleaner shot.
exactly the methods i used 30 years ago as kid playing cowboys and Indians.. also helped shoot the arrows further. great videos keep good work. as for haters..who cares about perfectly correct words, term used, got the idea use it..
Thanks Armin for sharing your position, I’d like to add one point: to me the major advantage of khatra is to move the bow out of the arrows way. Once correctly done the arrow does not need to bend around the bow and will not loose any energy in relation to the „archers paradox“. The saving of this energy by performing khatra may be much higher than the positive effect of momentum explained by you...
The Arrow still bends and those this snakey movement. Even Centershot bows got this. Archers Paradox can't be void by moving. You need to use a centershot.
@@Daylon91 the arrow is already gone befor the hand moves. It help´s for arrow clearens for sure. The bend will still be the same (first it bend´s into the bow and then outside). To the speed increase, again arrow is long gone befor the hand can get speed. I think hatra can move the string in a diffrent way and improve arrow clearens.
@@Daylon91 momentum is the wrong word i think. Yes you can't be faster then the string. So your hand first moves when the arrow is gone. Lot of factors you can add speed: longer draw, less twisting on the string or big problem in thumb archery the index finger pushes against the shaft to strong. I talked to some teachers for Arabic archery about it. I been told there is no text that says it should make anything faster. They doubt it themself. The japanis got something similar to hatra (the full spin of the bow). They build a machine that could spin the bow. The result was yes you have a wider range of stiff spines but no speed increase. I am pretty sure hatra hade a total diffrent use maybe its even only a tradition.
@@Daylon91 i think momentum is when a object is already moving. So yes if you want to penetrante deeper you can take masure to enhance the momentum like heavyer arrows. When you look at slow motion videos you will see that the hand first starts to move when the arrow left the string. Also the movement of the hand is so slow that you couldn´t masure it with a crono.
Yes Armin I don't have to tell you that you are absolutely right i guess people who disagree can't wrap their mind around it likely because they believe that their is only so much energy that the bow itself is capable of generating. I can attest to the fact that katra enables you to shoot a broader range of spine , arrows that otherwise will spring off to the right suddenly fly beautifully and perfectly straight so much so that penetration is inhanced probably because the arrow isn't oscillating as much. I love your videos and believe them an important and accurate source of archery wisdom further that i really like your teaching style and sense of humor which i for one would like to hear more of. Stay safe in these dangerous times Armin don't let me hear that my favorite archery teacher has fallen ill .
Thanks for posting this. I had the same debate discussion with the youtuber you mentioned in your video. He refused to listen or even have an oped mind about it.
@@mortenjacobsen5673 hes (archery 360) is lost in modern archery which has no relation to real traditional archery. Hes blinded. "When a wise man speaks the foolish only hear foolish things"
@@Daylon91 and thats why archers need to be educated and informed, given all the information to think and test. Other vise you have a bunch of self thought youtubers with eksperience only relevant to them arguing out of ignorance while dissmising a scientific retrospektive with "diffrent styles" or other labels
I went out and practiced this it seems that it does work and I was impressed within a few shots at close range I was still hitting the mark. now I know that you shoot with a thumb but it also worked fine off shelf left side of bow with shelf i would like to try thumb some more but need different bow without shelf thankyou for the video again
Hi Armin, a few important points for further discussion: 1) You probably meant to refer to inertia, not momentum. EDIT: In thinking about this some more, I'm not sure either inertia or momentum are really appropriate terms for khatra. More like, potential energy being converted into kinetic energy. 2) If you're referring to the Archery101 pair of videos, I agree with you 100%. The videos are very badly thought out and are misinforming many people. He did come somewhat close to understanding the truth about forward khatra (rather inadvertently) by recognizing that the expansion at the last second can increase speed. BUT, he really didn't do his homework. The original medieval source (Taybugha) that defined the khatra technique clearly indicates for the archer to thrust with the left hand to expand the draw at the last millisecond. And the flip forward motion is just a consequence of that thrust, much like the draw hand flipping back is a consequence of back tension. As you say, the flip isn’t really the khatra. It’s just an echo of the good body mechanics. So…Archery101 is defining “khatra” completely differently than everyone else so as to reach his desired conclusion. Classic strawman argumentation. Or just ignorance. 3) Although you mentioned this in passing as a tangent, and possibly meant something else, the statement of western shooting being “only a few hundred years old”… …I honestly have to disagree with you on this one. The style of shooting we call “western” is arguably just as old as thumb ring shooting. And is actually probably much, much older, for that matter. Almost as old as the bow and arrow itself. We see clear representations of Med draw/left side in both Assyrian and Egyptian art, as well as clear descriptions of the draw in Roman sources. We also see many examples of it in hunter gatherers who are completely uninfluenced by modern western archery practices, and who are the best possible analog we have for our deeply ancient ancestors. Given the innate SIMPLICITY and effectiveness of these techniques for subsistence hunting, it stands to reason that they would have been the techniques to develop first and the ones to continually persist among cultures that did most of their archery on foot. By comparison, the more complicated thumb ring techniques are likely to be relatively recent inventions, specifically developed for warfare on horseback. Taybugha himself even claims that his interpretation of forward “khatra” is a recent innovation that the ancients never talked about! 4) Related to point 2, it is very possible and actually very easy to apply aspects of khatra to “mediterranean” style shooting. The side khatra aspect for arrow clearance is completely unnecessary, as the arrow flight is inherently less problematic, but the forward expansion can definitely be done with a high wrist grip and pressure from the web of the left hand. I do it all the time myself. Just yesterday I was at a 3D shoot was watching some western longbow shooters have "mini khatra" follow through motions with their bow hand. They had never heard of khatra. It was just something they found themselves doing. Quantitative difference between them and eastern archers, but not qualitative. Different degree of same phenomenon. In fact, one could easily argue that the epitome of modern “western” archery - Olympic style - already includes khatra elements! Look at their high wrist grip, how it’s forcefully thrusting forward, so much so that at the millisecond they release, the left hand goes even further forward and tilts downward due to forward inertia. Same as khatra flip. They aren’t holding onto the bow at all so they don’t have the lower tip forcefully strike the armpit, and their expansion beforehand is much slower and far more controlled, but the overall body mechanics are very, very similar. It is a dynamic draw, just the same as Eastern shooting. Just done only a little bit different.
Well, I disagree a bit here. While the Olympic style archery looks similar but the intention and the mechanic of the shot are different, IMO. From the Olympic style training that I have experienced as well as observed, the pushing notion of the bow hand is missing. You simply use your skeletal structure of your hand to hold the bow in place and should not put any force into the bow. You should not even holding the bow in your hand. The forward wrist motion at the end of the shot is simply a follow through just like with the draw hand. After release, the force once there is no-longer there anymore so, you allow your hand to go wherever it is natural, hence the backward motion of your draw hand and the forward wrist motion of your bow hand but you are not intentionally do any of that. No "pushing" on your bow hand and no "pulling" your draw hand backward. As far as I can tell, that's how Olympic archers train. The forward khatra that we are talking about here is intentionally created by applying force to the bow hand and with the bow is holding in place by the bow grip causing the bow to flip forward. While it may looks similar to the bow moving and wrist motion of the Olympic archer, the inner mechanic is different. The pushing force to the bow hand does not always cause the forward khatra though. If you looks at the Korean archery, you will see much less forward khatra. The reason is the jum-tong. That is an invention to allow you to apply pushing force to your bow without tilting your wrist. That's why the Korean don't need to have the forward khatra and still have the forward inertia on the bow. But also to your other point in this same category, I agree with your that an archer with Mediterranean release style can also apply the forward khatra. But I don't think the classically trained Olympic archer does it though.
Armin- No. Not "yepp" :p Not by a long shot. Would appreciate a more thoughtful reply when you get a chance. Thachsanh- Please refer back to point 1. The khatra flip is itself a follow through motion from the forward "thrust" near simultaneous to the release, as Taybugha calls it. It's not a conscious or "intentional" flip. It just happens due to potential energy being released. I see it all the time in my own shooting, and I actually find it hard to prevent at this point. A consequence of push pull. When the bow is released the bow hand moves forward (and then downwards when the capacity for pure forward motion maxes out) just as the draw hand moves back. Same as your Olympic explanation. But due to the angle of the grip on the Olympic bow (high wrist) the forward pressure is simply there long before the release. There is a certain amount of muscular pushing required to maintain this wrist angle under load. Here's an example from personal experience - with the high wrist (btw, even a modern "low wrist" is pretty damn high), after shooting for over 2 hours with a 50 pound bow, holding each draw for over 6-7 seconds, I found it difficult to expand normally and get the clicker to go off. My wrist was subtly collapsing and changing my draw length by a few mm. A pure skeletal support of the bow would be a totally collapsed low wrist. If there were no push forward with the Olympic style, however subtle, that bow hand would not move forward like we both know it does. We might have to agree to disagree here. Having done both kinds of archery I think the fundamental underlying body mechanics are the same, just applied differently from a temporal and equipment perspective.
Well, over thousand of years developing, the act of bow shooting has been well developed into many basic steps and force application onto the bow and arrows. Virtually all styles of bow shooting will have these forces. Where, when and how much you use the force is what will define the style of shooting you are using. So, saying the same thing happen in other style of shooting is kinda counter productive. We need to take into account these details as it will result in a dramatic visually differences where in one style thing is clearly happening while the other is just kinda happening. In the end, in my opinion, all Khatra movements are some type of following through movements which come naturally from the force you apply to the bow and the string before you release provide that you have the correct grip and form. If you have to intentionally flip the bow in a certain direction, you probably doing it wrong. I have never trained in Turkish style, I can't comment there. In Korean style, the khatra movement mostly come from the way you grip the bow and partially from "pushing the high mountain" of the bow hand. If you grip the bow correctly, after you release, the side way khatra will automatically happen. The degree of khatra is depended on the style you grip the bow. In Korean style, there are slightly different ways to hold on to your bow which result in a light torque or a dramatic torque of the bow after release. These all come as shooting techniques and they sometimes affect the performance greatly. The Chinese are notorious with trying to hide and protect these techniques as they are often define shooting schools and family secrets. They all say, if you want to learn the correct way of Chinese khatra you need a sifu who will show you, if you are an outsider trying to learn their techniques, good luck. Bleh.
I just started shooting Eastern or Turkish style about 3 months ago. I am working on mastering side Khatra and it does work . When I first started shooting this way, the arrow flew off the bow way to the right ,as I incorperated side Khatra into my shooting the arrow flew straight off the bow to the target and if I put to much Khatra into the shot the arrow hit to the left of the target . My goal is to be able to use side and forward Khatra at the same time practice makes perfect
maybe it also has an effect that the release starts while still drawing back and therefore there is still backmuscle power invested during the moment of the release in a better way... if release in more static position its more likely that the friction the finger has on the string while clearing its path slows down the string a bit. That’s something for sure to be measured - calculated and also compared with the speed results and therefore proofable. the arrow less touching the bow during acceleration certainly has the same effect. even if it only helps doing other things more natural and right it has a legitimacy to be trained.
This is due to Hysteresis. When a material flexes, the energy of return when released is lower than the effort to draw it back. For most materials when it's flexed and released quickly, the losses are smaller, as if the material get "tired" the more time it spends bent. Also, if you put a forward motion when drawing/slip releasing, this is pulling the arrow forward so the arrow don't have to accelerate from zero, that's true too.
A great thanks master., You have cleared my mind about the katra and the momentum of shooting. Maybe I could do a mixture in my style and get arrow faster.. I value your time, dedication and teachings and the simplicited of how you make the demostrations. Best greetings from Chile.
As we come up on nearly a year, I figured I would add my .02 Euro...not as an archer of any particular skill, but rather as a beginner in eastern/thumb release style archery. However, my most relevant background is in golf and shooting sports. What does that have to do with "khatra" and archery? If you're willing to buckle in for a "TL/DR" style post, here I go... Many archers and rifle/pistol shooters attempt something philosophically similar when they make a shot. They attempt to create a moment of stillness in a chaotic environment, and to do so with consistency. Many archers shooting Mediterranean release strive to create an absolutely neutral bow hand...to the point that the bow basically falls out of the hand on release. A rifleman or pistolero will also seek a neutral, stable position from which to break the shot and, critically to our discussion, follow through. The combination of sling/grip/positional tension and follow through are the shooters equivalent to khatra (or lack of). The bullet of a rifle travelling down a 24 inch barrel at 3000 fps remains within the shooter's influence for only (2/1500) 1/750th of a second. The bullet of a handgun travelling down a 5 inch barrel at 1000 fps remains within the shooter's influence for only (5/(12*1000)) ~ 4/10000 ths of second. The time an arrow spends on the string during release is an eternity by comparison. Yet, despite this minuscule amount of time, shooter's will still ruin an otherwise good shot with bad follow through and bad trigger manipulation. How can this be possible? Simple. It isn't really about the thousandth of a second between when the shooter trips the sear and the bullet exits the barrel - it's about how the shooter's mental cues and physical posture at the moment of the shot influence the flight of the projectile. All the business about follow through is to keep the mind and body on the task of actually making the shot. This brings me to golf and Asiatic archery. What they both have in common is that they are dynamic shot making sports. They do not rely upon stillness or neutrality for consistency, but rather a routine/practiced set of actions. "Khatra" is the act of dynamically making a shot in a consistent, repeatable fashion when they release an arrow (in much the same way the USPSA/IPSC and 3-Gun shooters "drive" the gun onto the target, in contrast to Bullseye/PPC/F-class/Highpower shooters). It's not about what the archer does after the arrow leaves the string, it's about physical interaction created by the mental cues and practice as the archer makes the shot. Anyhow, curious to see what Herr Hirmer denkt auf mein idee. I enjoy the videos, so thanks for that.
thats quite a mouth full :) to sum it up: yes of course, like in all martial arts (what archery is for me and was all time) it is 80% mind (not ego) and 20% physical skills :)
Wouldnt using a chronograph to measure the arrow speed, silence the doubters once and for all? I enjoy your style and perspective on the many varieties of archery. Keep it going. Many thanks
I did in older videos already, that’s why for me it is no thing. And the ones who know everything better will still find something. That’s why I don’t overly care
I think it has something to do with the elasticity of the limbs. With elastic materials (like rubber bands or bow limbs) the speed or power of the spring back degrades the longer the material is stressed. So, if you hold at full draw, you lose some power after a few seconds. However, if you pull back and release quickly, the limbs do not lose as much power. One thing that I do not understand, though, is how moving your bow arm doesn't throw off the aim. It would be helpful to see it in slow motion from behind, looking down the arrow shaft, to see how the arrow's trajectory leaves the bow while the bow arm is moving. In the Western draw, if you let the bow arm move, it throws the shot to the right (assuming right-handed shooter) because the bow nudges the back of the arrow as it passes. This would not be the case if the arrow is on the right side of the bow, but then if the arrow is resting on your thumb, your thumb might push it. Or, changing the angle of the bow while the string is in motion would seem to affect the arrow while it is still on the string. How the arrow goes straight during all this movement is a mystery.
My dos centavos... two parts to this discussion. 1. Does it work and 2. Why. 1. If done right it does result in increased arrow speed and/or better arrow flight. 2. There is a longer power stroke and/or less arrow contact w the bow. There is movement of the draw and bow hand. Some do one or the other, some do both. Some do it right, some don't.
Thanks for the reply. I have found if I dont use khatra applying twist to the bow my arrows dont fly straight. With the correct amount of twist my bare shafts fly perfectly straight but without the twist flick the arrow nock end always turns in direction of outside of the bow, I use thumb release.
I think the way sometimes gamers drag their aim and click during the last second flinch to hit their target, This technique also allows a minute adjustment at the final moment
When i remember my phisics lecture correctly then momentum is a vector quantity so the momentum has a direction. The direction backwards shouldnt have an direkt effect on the momentum foreward. But the momentum backwards has an indirect effect because i think on the one hand the friction is different then without over drawing because the system is in motion and on the other hand i think the release will happen more clear. But for that an easy experiment would be nice for example an arrow with a stop at 30“ would work combined with a speed test. Kathra i think brings more tension in the system and supports therefore the acceleration. Just my thoughts i am only a biochemist so not so much knowledge about physics anymore
Case 1: pulling the arrow back further It's like a spring, or gravity. If you toss a ball up, when it comes back down, it'll have the same speed in the opposite direction. Similarly, even if you pull the arrow backwards, it'll eventually come back to the same position with a same speed forwards. Case 2: Snapping bow forwards This is even better than case 1: In fact, its exactly the same if you take a reference frame such that the center of mass of the bow+arrow system is stationary. But, you have to add the velocity of the reference frame (how fast the bow moves), which is how much better this is than case 1.
If you kick a ball thats coming towards you, it will fly further than kicking a stationary ball. Batting a fast pitch compared to a sluggish pitch same thing. Momentum allows the light object(ball/Arrow) to drain more Energy from the heavy object(foot/bat/bow limbs). On another Note here is something interesting elastic Materials do: They Heat Up while Stretching and cool Back down when they Return to their original shape. You can test this with a thin piece of Rubber against your lips. This thermal Energy will be lost when anchoring very long.
But this pulling the arrow back farther increases the drawing power by inches = more power. It would appear that the greatest benefit of Khthra would be the forward flipping or rotational turning of the bow to allow more of a clean “centerline” shot, and less archers paradox effect of forcing the arrow around the bow and increasing the flexing of the arrow. Am I wrong?
Thank you for all your videos, I have not been able to find much technical info on this style of archery my favorite is horse archery or running around while shooting. I have a mind 50 bow, I really like the look of the bow in the video I am curious what bow it is.
Wow... It is already a discussion for a long time. I'm just starting to learn about horsebow and all the technical aspects of it. I already practice barebow archery. So I see Khatra as different point of view. In modern bow they have sight window to make the arrow shot straight. This was not the case for traditional horsebow who has not sight window. So if you don't apply Khatra, the arrows would fly right sided. I think Khatra would in fact remove some obstacles in horsebow archery release. For example collision of the arrow to the bow hand and the bow. That's why the arrow fly faster. My more experience in horsebow friends use to tell me, if you apply correct Khatra, the arrow would not graze your bow hand. Are my analysis and my friends opinion correct? (I'm sorry for my bad English)
When I was a kid at primary school I was king of our marble patch of dirt. Kids that fudged their shot (pushing with the firing arm ) got more power but less accuracy. The better kids did not. I found that the least set of muscles used, the more accurate and consistent the shot. Maybe a bad comparison but thought I'd mention it. Khatra is created by muscle in constant tension and is more consistent, as far as I can see, never having shot a horse bow type. Point ; Comparisons are pointless if a difference can't be measured. Accurately check arrow speed with and without. Hence the debate. I like Khatra. Looks more fluid and cool but for some, if they still can't hit the target applying it, what's the point ? An observation from the inexperienced.
Well obviously I missed this topic at the height of its debate but I wanted to still comment. Just watching a few of your vids, I feel you are quite knowledgeable of traditional archery (the term 'traditional archery' seems to have a few different meanings depending on who you speak to)... I did see the analysis that Greg from Archery 101 did on the demonstration of the khatra technique. Without going over again what others have I'll just say that from your video here, it seems to me that khatra, and the way you explain the push/pull dynamic, is very much as in martial arts when you deliver a punch and to get the maximum power of that punch you punch through your target (similar to what the bow support hand is doing) rather than your fist stopping as soon as you touch the target. I think that unless a person is an advanced archer who actually practices khatra to the point where they are very proficient at the transfer of energy that they would have a hard time doing it correctly with the proper timing. The video that Greg from Archery 101 critiqued showed the archer using the khatra movement but it didn't appear to me that his timing was right, hence the arrow was already gone by the time his bow hand rotated forward... Again, if you have never studied martial arts and you try to demonstrate a punch with great form, you probably won't do it to the same effectiveness as someone who has practiced that technique for thousands of repetitions... "I don't fear the man who has practiced 10,000 techniques... I fear the man who has practiced ONE technique 10,000 times." - Bruce Lee.
I knew it was coming...the Bruce Lee quote!! I am getting the hang of it. Thanks Armin and I guess RUclips(only because this was where I found Armin), I find that it is one of those things...when done right, it FEELS RIGHT. It wasnt even really what I would describe as a learned thing. It just clicked with what I was already doing? Hope that makes sense. It was NATURAL maybe? Flowed? Any way...I get it now lol That is coming from a Compound Archer for 35 years, totally different but naturally sort of the same. Yes I use release aids and sights...but I judge Range by instinct. I draw and judge distance apart from the Sight Pins, they are only used to decrease the area of miss. I found I can get with in say 5 yards(by pin distance I have set...like 20,30,40 50 yards)...I draw and "Instinct" tells me here...look through Peep Sight on string and use closest Pin to "Pre determined distance" means dead Deer, or stump. Shrinks the "Hit zone" quite dramatically at off ranges, especially from 35 to 50 plus yards. Inside of 35...well I dont even think it makes much a difference. Khatra, was a whole New Experience as was Asiatic Archery...right side of the bow? WT.... lol But it does have a natural feel to it. I will be probably one of the only fellas in the Hunting woods this year, shooting an Horse Bow and Thumb release...cant wait to see the looks on their faces at Deer Camp 🤣😜
You are rt my friend when you get it it just feels correct. I find it more akin to throwing darts than shooting arrows. Keep practicing and the more dynamic the release will get. Shoot well
OMG, tried it, shit at first. At 20yds over periods of time, felt like catapult shooting. Fun stuff, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, felt really part of it all when it did. Oh well throwing an arrow with intent is sometimes not as regimented as it is supposed to be. Can you project your chi through force of an arrow, now there is a thought often pondered.
I'm a PhD physicist and I can guarantee you that Khatra makes physical sense. The momentum part you said doesn't make much of a difference physically speaking. You could compensate for the inital momentum you put on your bow hand by pulling the bow more and getting the same results. What is crucial here is that by removing the bow from the path of the arrow you don't lose speed to friction and also you dont let the bow convert part of the speed you are gaining to a lateral speed. I can write you a diagram if you'd like. What matters is that in the end the Khatra physically improves arrow speed and precision by removing the bow from the front of the arrow
I taught myself to shoot when I was 8 on a bamboo self bow I made. I started out shooting Slavic totally by myself. I also started shooting snap draw without being told. I have been shooting like this ever since and only recently have I learned that other people do this or that it has a name. Funny how things that work get independently invented.
Armin, thank you for your videos. Your chanel is awesome. Do you have some videos about accuracy in different styles of archery - mediterranean, thumbring(with/without khatra and thumbring)?
I did not even know about Khatra so thanks for the video. even if it makes no difference in terms of the physics - the motion is more relaxed and natural - more true to the natural world. A bird does not flap its wings from a rigid point.. its a wave of flowing motion. all of nature shows us this-
Wouldn't the fact your hand is moving backward mean it would have to overcome rearward momentum before imparting any forward energy to the arrow? Remember Newton's law an object in motion tends to stay in motion in a straight line and at a constant rate until acted upon by an outside force. That would mean the forward momentum of the bow from its rotation would simply be an effort to overcome the arrows rearward momentum. I maybe wrong but, that is how I remember Newton's law.
Hallo Armin, ich denke das Khatra sehr gut funktioniert, die Theorie darüber ist auch logisch. Ich selbst hab es jetzt selbst probiert, mit Vorspannung ( Seitlich) oder mit Timing seitlich und nach unten-außen. AUCH das mit dem release mit der die Bogenhand drückt und dann los lässt. Habe einen Reiterbogen ( Tatar) vielleicht ist der nicht der beste , aber sicherlich machbar für Khatra. Also wenn bei mir das Timing stimmt , dann treffe ich ganz gut, aber meistens berührt der Pfeil den Bogen. Also über RUclips ,Khatra lernen klappt für mich nicht so gut. 80 % der Schüsse sind immer rechts 20 cm + bei 10m Entfernung. Vielleicht gibt es ja einen Trick , Kniff, den hab ich aber noch nicht raus gefunden. Danke für das Video....weiter so.
Thank you for explaining Khatra I sent a text the other day about my shelf on my bow wearing I shall try and shoot copter a style Mediterranean release thank you very much Glenn Bayley 😉👍🇬🇧
As usual, I see this video late!!! But not too late !!!!😄😄😄 Thank's Armin cause I just understand with you , if I don't mistake that the hand on bow start to move and make release the other hand on string .is it right? I tried release and after khatra but I think it didn't work cause the arrow is already far when khatra ´s done.... training, training and training again!!!! Thank's again for your so usefull and clean videos!!! 🙏😊🙏 Richard😎🇫🇷
this is exactly what some people here on youtube think. instead of really looking closely and see that I was not in full draw before. I did not draw more than usual
Do settle it once and for all why do't you just procure a high speed camera and show everyone doing your technique? And also why not do a side by side comparison of you shooting through a chronograph? I keep rewatching the video and you're doing it discreetly but to me it looks like right before you release you're pulling your draw hand back another inch or two and the arrow has left the string by the time you've begun tilting your bow.
inf act you admit as much a couple seconds a couple seconds before 5 minutes. You're increasing your speed by augmenting the length of your powerstroke at the last second.
I may have to disagree with the statement that Mediterranean draw is a few hundred years old while other techniques are thousands of years old. There is ancient artwork and other sources depicting Mediterranean draw used in ancient times and all throughout the middle ages. Of course it differed from the modern olympic style (if you compare people who shoot English longbow with people who do olympic archery they differ A LOT), but both hold the bowstring in a similar way, and both put the arrow on the left side... and both are generally referred to as Mediterranean draw. I suppose it would be more accurate to say that the olympic archery (aka. freestyle recurve) and its predecessor, Victorian era British archery, are a modern, young technique and a subcategory of Mediterranean draw. I think the general pattern here is that modern sport archery (and that goes for compound bows too), tend to go for lower draw weights, and thus the archer can reach full draw length and still has a second or two to aim the bow before their arms start shaking etc., resulting in a static release. This seems optimal for low draw weights, when the goal is to score points by hitting as close as possible to a bullseye on a soft target. On the other hand, in archery styles that are more combat oriented, archers go for the highest draw weight they can reliably shoot, but this means they can't reach full draw and still spend time aiming. They must do a dynamic release, or lower the draw weight. Because combat efficiency was the goal, they would go for the higher draw weight and a dynamic release - which makes khatra, overdraw, and many other techniques optimal for this style of shooting.
I can see your point...from the Military Use aspect of Horse Archery/Flight Shooting. That being said Accuracy is still very good when shooting this style with Khatra. I am just as accurate shooting Horse bows as I ever was shooting Compounds with full sights,peeps, stabilizers and all the bells and whistles. I dont shoot Olympic weights, but the "Let-Off" from the cams means I am not holding but a 35% of the 70 pound draw weight. I could always hold my old 25% let off bow a long enough time to be super accurate so on History:Yes. As much as these Ancients were required to practice...not sure they sacrifice too much accuracy in their style?On using "Overdraw" technically the wrong term. Maximum Draw more like it. It may have been more a part of bow design and use of MASSIVE curve and recurve designs? Humans do like pushing limits...look at NASCAR LOL Why stop with "Stock" when just I wee bit of tweaking something can boost performance! Right? know you knew that also, just didnt bring it up....if not I just wanted to bring it up! NOT TROLLING YOU! They are similar, like rifle shooting Iron Sights and Black powder compared to Scoped and Smokeless Powdered Cartridges. Eh, hope you get what I am trying to say. Can you imagine what "Traditional Archery" would be like today, if not for the invention of FireArms? Almost like wondering how much smoother, Kentucky Bourbon would be, if not for Prohibition and needing to star over!
@@adamparsons1725 To be honest, I don't have that much experience with archery - just started about a year ago, backyard shooting, so I'm not entirely sure what to think about all this. Some sources say that in competitions, people shooting barebow tend to score much lower than those shooting with sights, stabilisers, clickers and such, whereas competitive compound shooters score the highest. So I assume compound bows and bows with extra gadgets do make it easier to shoot consistently, if anything. However, since I'm just a beginner, shooting inconsistently whether I shoot barebow or with sights, I can't really judge from my POV ;) On the other hand, the statistics I've seen may be somewhat skewed, in that even though they're international, they were very western-styles-centric. Barebow was mostly English longbows etc. I'd have to compare against say Korean archery championships, Mongolian archery championships, and so on. Then there's of course horseback archery, though I think the accuracy there is definitely lower, as they tend to shoot at much closer distances. Though that's understandable ;) And of course world champions are one thing, but in military we'd have to consider the average bowman. Either way, I'm interested in both historical and modern archery, and personally, I'd like to have a Japanese yumi made of carbon fibre and other modern materials, and designed as a take-down for easier transportation... so that I could practice backyard kyudo xD ... one can dream.
Hallo Armin. Ich fand die Erklärung sehr gut. Würdest du generell Kathra für einen Daumentechnik-Anfänger empfehlen? Ich hab jetzt ne ganze Weile trainiert und die Pfeile treffen auch schon ganz gut...zumindest auf 12 m ;)! Aber bei mir dreht sich der Bogen eher nur zur Seite, als das er wirklich kippt. LG André
Die ersten paar Pfeile ohne, eh schon viel zu lernen. Dann einfach Druck mit der Daumenwurzel nach vorn und mit dem kleinen Finger nach hinten. Wenn der Bogen (wie bei uns) immer leicht gekantet ist - sollte das fast von allein klappen :)
I've been learning and using Khatra for while now though I'm still seeking more knowledge about that skill. From my shooting, what I learned from using Khatra is that, it makes my arrow trajectory flatter with lesser fish tailing. Based on my observation that is. Maybe that's what makes the arrow seems to shoot faster because instead of using normal arrow trajectory, the Khatra makes the arrow fly more flat hence spending its energy more on it's flight until it's drop. I'm using forward Khatra with a bit of side torque applied in my bow hand. My bow are crimean tatar style 45 pound. I wish that I know how to make a video for youtube, maybe then I can upload my way of shooting. Well that's just from me. I may be wrong, if it is please correct me.
Hi yes they shoot faster because of lesser problems like archers paradox, slapping on the bow and so on. And of course the "momentum" creates already this forward motion. But all in all it sounds very good, simply continue exploring and testing. When you find your way and it feels good, stick with it. There is not only one way to do it :)
The less extra arrow movement in flight the better. That means all forward energy is used for arrow flight and not fighting air drag across the whole arrow!! Therefore an increase in speed !!
Trajectory can only be more flat if the initial speed of the arrow is faster. Khatra cannot turn off gravity. The drop is 16 t^2 feet/sec^2 regardless of starting speed. But less time to target produces less drop. Faster = Flatter.
The fact that you release in motion removes the chance of your drawlength creeping inwards upon release. This could improve accuracy as well as arrow speed. The clearing of the bow from the arrow is a completely different effect, this seems on first sight an advantage of the khatra you demonstrate. I’m not a professional like you, just sharing my thoughts. One side note I just thought of - when playing piano my teacher told me told play from motion into motion, not from still to motion. This ensures maximum muscle efficiency, so you don’t start off too slow in a fast run for example
I saw a 1 min video the other day that completely proves Khatra works. It was using a slomo camera, about 1000 fps, and it clearly shows the arrow STILL attached to the string after side khatra was imployed as the arrow left the bow. It's the clearest I have seen yet. The smoking gun as it were.
nicely explained. a question : using khatra is it possible to get tight groups or are arrows scattered? the movement is not 100% consistent and having different lengths at release might give the arrows a vertical pattern??
How tight of a group are you looking for? I am getting 3 arrows in a 3 inch group at 13 meters (max length I have to shot indoors at this time.) most of the time. Some would consider that good others not good enough. However I have only had my Turkish bow for 3 weeks. And have been learning and using the "Tilt and Twist" method. I have been using a thumb ring for about a year and a half. I got the same question from several archery instructors at the local club when I started using this style. In my opinion it really isn't that much different then trying to hold your hand steady. I found it easier to keep everything moving. For me it feels much more natural. I should mention that these instructors have never actually tried to use a thumb ring, they only saw it on RUclips and they saw me as a beginner. I will say it did take a lot shots to adjust to the arrow on the other side by it's all about practice, practice and more practice, as it is with any style of shooting. be it gun, crossbow, longbow, compound, recurve or selfbow. And it's a lot of fun to practice with friends of different shooting style and compare everyone's learning curve.
hehe I shoot tighter groups while doing khatra. And 13 m 3 arrows constantly in a 3 inch group is really good. Of course an olympic archer with sigh and release will laugh about it. But hey.
I thought khatra was about avoiding archers paradox that causes the artor to oscillate in the air. If you manage to make the arrow not to go arount the frame more power from the string is going to push the artow forward instead of oscilkations...
the arrow will always "wobble" a bit in the air. with khatra you can go for stiffer arrows to reduce this wobbling. as you dont have to care hitting the arrow on the bow
I use the Mediterranean 3-finger draw/release, but I'm trying to learn the thumb draw/release on my own, since there's no one in my country that can teach me, but the arrows always fly to the right. I know there's something that I'm not doing right
no worries, that is normal as you have to get used to a bit different way of pointing to the target and of course the arrow goes now over the right side of the bow. might take a few shots, then you have it
Mr. Hirmer, are you canting the bow a bit when using thumb release and khatra or are you holding the bow vertically? Does it matter one way or the other?
I like your videos but I cannot see how the arrow can move any faster if the bow, draw length and arrow are constant. Unless you are moving forward while shooting (adding momentum)... I'd like to see a test of arrow speed and accuracy with different khatras in comparison to standard stance. Perhaps you'll feel compelled to make this video. I am just curious to find a verifiable/measurable truth on the subject. My experience as an archer is much lower than yours.
Thank you. I still don't understand why the 3 fingers style called "meditarreinian". As for khatra I'm now learning it, and it isn't easy to get used to it
If u made a training video/dvd etc... I would pay good money for. For thumb release, Khatra instinctive etc... I shot bows from a young boy as a Native Indigenous and can,t get enuf of your teachings.
Can someone shooting mediterranean style make use of this by coming to anchor, then drawing a tiny bit further and releasing in one motion? Is that actually what olympic style archers are doing when they use a clicker?
the Olympic style is a bit different... they use the clicker to make sure to reach their full draw and maybe yes a bit making use of momentum, but that is not their intention. But to answer, yes of course you can use this method of flying anchor in mediterranean style.
Draw hand motion and bow hand motion of Olympic archers is essentially identical to forward khatra shooting in terms of mechanics and use of inertia. They don't hold onto the bow so there is no forceful flip, but the push pull expansion and action of the wrist is the same. There is no sideways khatra element because it isn't needed.
HI Armin, do you think that grasping the bow mainly with the little, ring and middle fingers is a mild form of khatra as it causes the bow hand to release torque in a similar fashion? I find my accuracy is far better this way.
the different pressure of the 3 fingers already creates a slight momentum yes. thats why is it recommended to hold the bow like this :) thanks for watching
In video game terms, compound bow would be easy. Olympic recurve is normal, barebow is hard, and horsebow with khatra very hard :D You just have to have a feel for it.
Hello Armin, I wondered how the Khatra works for the classical mediterranean release with the arrow on the left side. And does a shelf affect it in any way? Thanks in advance!
Hi Armin, 3 finger shooting style isn't only a few hundred years old. Longbow goes back to 2700 BC. They certainly didn't shoot longbow with their thumb. Short bows are fun and using a thumb draw is a challenge for sure. Are they as accurate as the modern longbows or recurve bows? I don't think so but maybe you have a different idea. When accuracy counts, I believe modern recurve bows are the most accurate followed by modern longbows. Hence the 3 finger shooting is probably much more accurate than the thumb draw.
the native folks of course had longbows, but mostly they used pinch draw and mixed styles. Yes of course modern bows will help in accuracy and if this is your only concern, they will be better. If versatility and speed is a concern too, it will look different. And at the end it comes down to proper training. I shoot the same with three finger or thumb
@@ArminHirmer and you are a great inspiration. I like watching your videos learn a lot from you and I have a lot of respect for you. According to my research, even the Medieval times which started in 5th century, the longbow had at least 90 pound draw weight. There is no way a pinch draw or any other than Mediterranean draw could work with these heavy bows. I usually hunt with bow and arrow and because of the size and the knock down power, I use bare compound bows with Mediterranean draw. One day I will hunt with a Turkish bow with a thumb draw but I really need to get better at it. Please keep making more educational videos and pass the knowledge on us. Take care!
I do archery at an intermediate level, and I play guitar at a high level. I've always felt that regardless of "proper" form, the proof is in the pudding. If it works for you, it works. There really isn't much more to say than that.
I love this channel. But I also enjoy several others including 3D Archery's. Can I please ask that everyone you is calling people morons wind their neck in. Armin gave his opinion and challenged naysayers reasonably and calmly. Let's all try to follow suit. Let's celebrate trad archery. After all, despite our differences, at least we're not compound-bow operators (notice I didn't say archers). And if you hadn't spotted it, that's a joke. But see how easy it is for a comment to get tempers flaring. So let's just enjoy Armin et all and if it works for you, use it. If not don't 😊
I think this is true I don,t own a chrony but I have to say it seems the arrows go faster when i snap shoot I just can't hit anything like that ha ha.But that is my personal fault. I say don't knock it till you try it.thanks for the video
So what I take away from your presentation is that Khatra works by applying excess draw force in the final 3 to 5 cm of the draw, causing your drawing arm to accelerate backward and acquire kinetic energy, which translates to extra elastic energy stored in the limbs, thereby increasing the power of the shot.
Haha, I know the youtuber in question here. It surprises me that someone dedicates a few hours to this, shooting with a center cut recurve bow with a pistol grip, and calls bullshit on it right away. To me that's not a sign of an expert, or an intelligent man for that matter.
Not intelligent? Okay. I will happy retract my point if anyone can show it to me outside of the mythical elements. What I said and I stand by is that the increase in speed was caused by increased draw length. Not by “Khatra”. Now, “Khatra” is the reason for t increased draw length, that much I acknowledge. But it is not the reason.
3D archery you are modern archer shooting with 19th century recurve bow with traditional western style so you didn't understand about traditional archer
Regarding your film. I'm afraid you are wrong. "Khatra", assuming such an understanding as in this video helps to get more speed shot, but not because of "momentum", but because of the physical properties of the material, plus "ring effect". Let me explain. Still many archers believe the muscle reaction alone can affect the release. For example, the forward rotation of the limbs caused by the tension applied by the fingers of the bow hand (known as "khatrah"), the deliberate twisting of the grip, the movements of the arm or flexing of the hand at the wrist are said to “steer” the arrow. According to slow-motion films, the muscle reaction is much too slow to have any effect on the arrow passing the bow’s grip. The arrow is free of the grip within no more than 15ms for slower bows and less than 10ms for the fastest flight bows. The muscle reaction only shows after the shot how the archer applied the stresses to the limbs during the shot. The arrow has the time only to react to the stress in the limbs provided by the muscle tension, and released by the limbs instantly to effect the correct arrow path during the power stroke. The “internal ballistics” of the arrow will directly influence the arrow’s angle of departure from the bow as well. But while performing the"khatrah" there is something else. During static release when the thumb is released, the string slides out of the ring at a distance abt. 0.5-1cm. This slippage is slow in comparison to unimpeded movement of the string immediately afterwards. In this way the draw length is practically shortened by this distance and the bow is less powerful, which gives slower shot. Of course, the arms of the bow also distort stronger (start to creep) when are kept so long under the tension, which reduces the strength of the bow. During dynamic release ("khatrah" and "flight" technique), the grip is pushed forward and the string is jerk backward, the same the losses when the string leave the thumbring are smaller. Usually in this case an arrow is also being overdraw which also increases the initial speed.The bow does not lose the length of draw, it is stronger and greater arrow speed. Also the creep of the material is smaller. In the case of bows made with natural materials, dynamic shot also gives faster shot because of the physical properties of tendons, wood and horn, which are called "Viscoelastic". This means they have a greater mechanical rigidity which increase bow drawing force when they are deformed very quickly. Therefore, the "natural" bows are actually faster in this case. Definitelly "khatra" helps to get a CLEAN shot, in which the arrow shaft does not rub against the grip.
Many people forget that the arrow has two nod point and the archers paradox effect both of them. once the string is let go the front of the arrow is already pressing against the riserand since force applied is force returned the arrow kicks out from the riser like a push kick and starts paradox . And thearrow leaves the string once the string stops at he brace heighs so if you are moving your hand at this point performing some sort of active follow the nod point has passed the riser and the energy transferred. Unless your superman and manage to hit the back of the arrow to straiten out the paradox.. in flight...
Why do you always mention "over drawing the bow" ?? These bows are designed to reach maximum draw weight at those lengths! My KTB does NOT reach the 40# weight until it is drawn to 31in. That is NOT OVER DRAW" Your western bow is tiller to reach maximum weight at 28in the industry standard. You can over draw it. Asian bows are tillered to reach their draw weight at long lengths to take advantage of the lever action of the limb tips. Just makes any weight bow easier to draw form the back of a horse!! your trying to compare apples and oranges. stop!!
If you are right about the role of the viscoelastic effect, then the effect of dynamic khatra on arrow speed should not be as dramatic when performed with a fiberglass bow as it is with a bow made of natural materials because fiberglass takes essentially no set.
Thank you , Mr Hirmer. The ultima point of khatra is that the bow becomes the extension of your hand, invisible, and the arrow is the will of the archer, hits wherever his mind fixes up on.
Beautiful
Thank you for your commentary. That was a thoughtful and engaging explanation and demonstration. It gave me a lot to think about.
NUSensei thank you for watching
I had watched another of your videos on the same subject where you stressed not letting the back of the Arrow strike bow riser. I worked on it this only adds to my understanding thanks is an understatement
I just wanted to thank you for all that you have taught me already.
I have been shooting for about 8 weeks now after not picking up a bow for 45 years. With your help I am improving each and every day. Shooting 90 to 180 arrows a day. So much fun.
You are a fantastic teacher !!!
Have a fun filled day,
Alex
I am very new to archery and hope to receive meditative benefits from its practice. While I am not qualified to comment on this topic as everyone here forgot more about archery last week than I even know, I must say that i do appreciate everyone sharing their perspectives in an intelligent manner (mostly) for the benefit of the archery community. I look forward to working my way through all of your videos Sir. Thank you for sharing.
I thank you Jim for watching and your kind words
Your counsel with regards to kahtra and the eastern thumb draw have helped me immensely. I have found your videos very thought provoking and helpful. Thank you for you postings!
I am happy to hear that :) thank you for watching and your nice comment
When you explain this way,with cientific facts,it'easy to understand!
Great masterclass!
best explaination of what happens in khatra regardless whether you think it works or not. thank you sir.
Like all your instructions , very well explained 👍
So good, I watch it again every few weeks.
English archers "...upon release they would take a giant step forward pushing with their arm" you can see in their stance when they stand like that.
Even ignoring the momentum and power argument, I think it might help in another way, which imo makes it instinctive in many cultures. For stationary target archery, honestly I don't see much of difference since all variables are minimised or nulled, and what counts is the precision on a fixed target. But if you're hunting or at war, not actually fully drawing until you actually mean to realease allows you to save on stamina. And if your target is a moving one that can change distance, with arrows that aren't produced identically with machine precision and mathematically calibrated to your bow which draw weight is not mathematically designed and known, khatra is there helping you minimise variables another way.
thank you for this explanation.
Iv'e been preaching the (almost) exact same explanaton for a while, great to see there a like minded archers out there.
when done properly, one cannot deny the effect :) thanks for watching
It's a good explanation if true, but would like to see it measured. Shoot 10 arrows static. Shoot 10 arrows with khatra. Measure the speeds with a chronograph. Take the averages. Is there a significant difference? If there is, then you can't deny empirical evidence. You said some numbers, but you didn't show you measuring.
Thanks for another insightful video Armin, for someone who used to shoot Olympic style then got into traditional some years ago and just got my first couple of Korean bows this helped a lot Im struggling with thumb release, so I was shooting them split med an doing oķ but the bow motion wasn't hard to remember and really helps to tighten my group's at 18 yrs and feels a much cleaner shot.
thank you for watching!
exactly the methods i used 30 years ago as kid playing cowboys and Indians..
also helped shoot the arrows further. great videos keep good work.
as for haters..who cares about perfectly correct words, term used, got the idea use it..
Thank you very much for your teaching. I now understand how and looking forward to practicing this.
have fun and thanks for watching
Thanks Armin for sharing your position, I’d like to add one point: to me the major advantage of khatra is to move the bow out of the arrows way. Once correctly done the arrow does not need to bend around the bow and will not loose any energy in relation to the „archers paradox“. The saving of this energy by performing khatra may be much higher than the positive effect of momentum explained by you...
The Arrow still bends and those this snakey movement. Even Centershot bows got this. Archers Paradox can't be void by moving. You need to use a centershot.
@@Daylon91 the arrow is already gone befor the hand moves. It help´s for arrow clearens for sure. The bend will still be the same (first it bend´s into the bow and then outside). To the speed increase, again arrow is long gone befor the hand can get speed. I think hatra can move the string in a diffrent way and improve arrow clearens.
@@Daylon91 momentum is the wrong word i think. Yes you can't be faster then the string. So your hand first moves when the arrow is gone. Lot of factors you can add speed: longer draw, less twisting on the string or big problem in thumb archery the index finger pushes against the shaft to strong. I talked to some teachers for Arabic archery about it. I been told there is no text that says it should make anything faster. They doubt it themself. The japanis got something similar to hatra (the full spin of the bow). They build a machine that could spin the bow. The result was yes you have a wider range of stiff spines but no speed increase.
I am pretty sure hatra hade a total diffrent use maybe its even only a tradition.
@@Daylon91lt only got mystical power in modern times.
@@Daylon91 i think momentum is when a object is already moving. So yes if you want to penetrante deeper you can take masure to enhance the momentum like heavyer arrows. When you look at slow motion videos you will see that the hand first starts to move when the arrow left the string. Also the movement of the hand is so slow that you couldn´t masure it with a crono.
Yes Armin I don't have to tell you that you are absolutely right i guess people who disagree can't wrap their mind around it likely because they believe that their is only so much energy that the bow itself is capable of generating. I can attest to the fact that katra enables you to shoot a broader range of spine , arrows that otherwise will spring off to the right suddenly fly beautifully and perfectly straight so much so that penetration is inhanced probably because the arrow isn't oscillating as much. I love your videos and believe them an important and accurate source of archery wisdom further that i really like your teaching style and sense of humor which i for one would like to hear more of. Stay safe in these dangerous times Armin don't let me hear that my favorite archery teacher has fallen ill .
Hey. Thank you very much. I have no time for illness, matter of choice ;)
Thanks for posting this. I had the same debate discussion with the youtuber you mentioned in your video. He refused to listen or even have an oped mind about it.
welcome and thanks for watching :)
Khatra is supposed to be used with back tension aka expansion yes ? well this youtuber , by the way he shoots dont apply this principle of archery
@@mortenjacobsen5673 hes (archery 360) is lost in modern archery which has no relation to real traditional archery. Hes blinded. "When a wise man speaks the foolish only hear foolish things"
@@Daylon91 and thats why archers need to be educated and informed, given all the information to think and test. Other vise you have a bunch of self thought youtubers with eksperience only relevant to them arguing out of ignorance while dissmising a scientific retrospektive with "diffrent styles" or other labels
I went out and practiced this it seems that it does work and I was impressed within a few shots at close range I was still hitting the mark. now I know that you shoot with a thumb but it also worked fine off shelf left side of bow with shelf i would like to try thumb some more but need different bow without shelf thankyou for the video again
thanks for watching
Hi Armin, a few important points for further discussion:
1) You probably meant to refer to inertia, not momentum.
EDIT: In thinking about this some more, I'm not sure either inertia or momentum are really appropriate terms for khatra. More like, potential energy being converted into kinetic energy.
2) If you're referring to the Archery101 pair of videos, I agree with you 100%. The videos are very badly thought out and are misinforming many people.
He did come somewhat close to understanding the truth about forward khatra (rather inadvertently) by recognizing that the expansion at the last second can increase speed. BUT, he really didn't do his homework. The original medieval source (Taybugha) that defined the khatra technique clearly indicates for the archer to thrust with the left hand to expand the draw at the last millisecond. And the flip forward motion is just a consequence of that thrust, much like the draw hand flipping back is a consequence of back tension. As you say, the flip isn’t really the khatra. It’s just an echo of the good body mechanics.
So…Archery101 is defining “khatra” completely differently than everyone else so as to reach his desired conclusion. Classic strawman argumentation. Or just ignorance.
3) Although you mentioned this in passing as a tangent, and possibly meant something else, the statement of western shooting being “only a few hundred years old”…
…I honestly have to disagree with you on this one. The style of shooting we call “western” is arguably just as old as thumb ring shooting. And is actually probably much, much older, for that matter. Almost as old as the bow and arrow itself. We see clear representations of Med draw/left side in both Assyrian and Egyptian art, as well as clear descriptions of the draw in Roman sources. We also see many examples of it in hunter gatherers who are completely uninfluenced by modern western archery practices, and who are the best possible analog we have for our deeply ancient ancestors. Given the innate SIMPLICITY and effectiveness of these techniques for subsistence hunting, it stands to reason that they would have been the techniques to develop first and the ones to continually persist among cultures that did most of their archery on foot.
By comparison, the more complicated thumb ring techniques are likely to be relatively recent inventions, specifically developed for warfare on horseback. Taybugha himself even claims that his interpretation of forward “khatra” is a recent innovation that the ancients never talked about!
4) Related to point 2, it is very possible and actually very easy to apply aspects of khatra to “mediterranean” style shooting. The side khatra aspect for arrow clearance is completely unnecessary, as the arrow flight is inherently less problematic, but the forward expansion can definitely be done with a high wrist grip and pressure from the web of the left hand. I do it all the time myself. Just yesterday I was at a 3D shoot was watching some western longbow shooters have "mini khatra" follow through motions with their bow hand. They had never heard of khatra. It was just something they found themselves doing. Quantitative difference between them and eastern archers, but not qualitative. Different degree of same phenomenon.
In fact, one could easily argue that the epitome of modern “western” archery - Olympic style - already includes khatra elements! Look at their high wrist grip, how it’s forcefully thrusting forward, so much so that at the millisecond they release, the left hand goes even further forward and tilts downward due to forward inertia. Same as khatra flip. They aren’t holding onto the bow at all so they don’t have the lower tip forcefully strike the armpit, and their expansion beforehand is much slower and far more controlled, but the overall body mechanics are very, very similar. It is a dynamic draw, just the same as Eastern shooting. Just done only a little bit different.
Well, I disagree a bit here. While the Olympic style archery looks similar but the intention and the mechanic of the shot are different, IMO. From the Olympic style training that I have experienced as well as observed, the pushing notion of the bow hand is missing. You simply use your skeletal structure of your hand to hold the bow in place and should not put any force into the bow. You should not even holding the bow in your hand. The forward wrist motion at the end of the shot is simply a follow through just like with the draw hand. After release, the force once there is no-longer there anymore so, you allow your hand to go wherever it is natural, hence the backward motion of your draw hand and the forward wrist motion of your bow hand but you are not intentionally do any of that. No "pushing" on your bow hand and no "pulling" your draw hand backward. As far as I can tell, that's how Olympic archers train.
The forward khatra that we are talking about here is intentionally created by applying force to the bow hand and with the bow is holding in place by the bow grip causing the bow to flip forward. While it may looks similar to the bow moving and wrist motion of the Olympic archer, the inner mechanic is different. The pushing force to the bow hand does not always cause the forward khatra though. If you looks at the Korean archery, you will see much less forward khatra. The reason is the jum-tong. That is an invention to allow you to apply pushing force to your bow without tilting your wrist. That's why the Korean don't need to have the forward khatra and still have the forward inertia on the bow.
But also to your other point in this same category, I agree with your that an archer with Mediterranean release style can also apply the forward khatra. But I don't think the classically trained Olympic archer does it though.
yepp
Armin- No. Not "yepp" :p Not by a long shot. Would appreciate a more thoughtful reply when you get a chance.
Thachsanh- Please refer back to point 1. The khatra flip is itself a follow through motion from the forward "thrust" near simultaneous to the release, as Taybugha calls it. It's not a conscious or "intentional" flip. It just happens due to potential energy being released. I see it all the time in my own shooting, and I actually find it hard to prevent at this point. A consequence of push pull. When the bow is released the bow hand moves forward (and then downwards when the capacity for pure forward motion maxes out) just as the draw hand moves back. Same as your Olympic explanation.
But due to the angle of the grip on the Olympic bow (high wrist) the forward pressure is simply there long before the release. There is a certain amount of muscular pushing required to maintain this wrist angle under load.
Here's an example from personal experience - with the high wrist (btw, even a modern "low wrist" is pretty damn high), after shooting for over 2 hours with a 50 pound bow, holding each draw for over 6-7 seconds, I found it difficult to expand normally and get the clicker to go off. My wrist was subtly collapsing and changing my draw length by a few mm.
A pure skeletal support of the bow would be a totally collapsed low wrist.
If there were no push forward with the Olympic style, however subtle, that bow hand would not move forward like we both know it does.
We might have to agree to disagree here. Having done both kinds of archery I think the fundamental underlying body mechanics are the same, just applied differently from a temporal and equipment perspective.
Well, over thousand of years developing, the act of bow shooting has been well developed into many basic steps and force application onto the bow and arrows. Virtually all styles of bow shooting will have these forces. Where, when and how much you use the force is what will define the style of shooting you are using. So, saying the same thing happen in other style of shooting is kinda counter productive. We need to take into account these details as it will result in a dramatic visually differences where in one style thing is clearly happening while the other is just kinda happening.
In the end, in my opinion, all Khatra movements are some type of following through movements which come naturally from the force you apply to the bow and the string before you release provide that you have the correct grip and form. If you have to intentionally flip the bow in a certain direction, you probably doing it wrong.
I have never trained in Turkish style, I can't comment there. In Korean style, the khatra movement mostly come from the way you grip the bow and partially from "pushing the high mountain" of the bow hand. If you grip the bow correctly, after you release, the side way khatra will automatically happen. The degree of khatra is depended on the style you grip the bow. In Korean style, there are slightly different ways to hold on to your bow which result in a light torque or a dramatic torque of the bow after release.
These all come as shooting techniques and they sometimes affect the performance greatly. The Chinese are notorious with trying to hide and protect these techniques as they are often define shooting schools and family secrets. They all say, if you want to learn the correct way of Chinese khatra you need a sifu who will show you, if you are an outsider trying to learn their techniques, good luck. Bleh.
a "yepp" is fully enough, I sit here having my popcorn and enjoying the show
I just started shooting Eastern or Turkish style about 3 months ago. I am working on mastering side Khatra and it does work . When I first started shooting this way, the arrow flew off the bow way to the right ,as I incorperated side Khatra into my shooting the arrow flew straight off the bow to the target and if I put to much Khatra into the shot the arrow hit to the left of the target . My goal is to be able to use side and forward Khatra at the same time practice makes perfect
of course, stay on and practice :) thanks for watching
maybe it also has an effect that the release starts while still drawing back and therefore there is still backmuscle power invested during the moment of the release in a better way...
if release in more static position its more likely that the friction the finger has on the string while clearing its path slows down the string a bit. That’s something for sure to be measured - calculated and also compared with the speed results and therefore proofable.
the arrow less touching the bow during acceleration certainly has the same effect.
even if it only helps doing other things more natural and right it has a legitimacy to be trained.
This is due to Hysteresis. When a material flexes, the energy of return when released is lower than the effort to draw it back. For most materials when it's flexed and released quickly, the losses are smaller, as if the material get "tired" the more time it spends bent. Also, if you put a forward motion when drawing/slip releasing, this is pulling the arrow forward so the arrow don't have to accelerate from zero, that's true too.
Excellent video as always. I don't pretend to understand the science but if it works it works!!
in Tennis, we called it as "Follow Through"...I believed, "Khatra" and "Follow Through" is applied the same concept...
Yes I think so
Thank you for the great video.
A great thanks master., You have cleared my mind about the katra and the momentum of shooting. Maybe I could do a mixture in my style and get arrow faster.. I value your time, dedication and teachings and the simplicited of how you make the demostrations. Best greetings from Chile.
We learn all the time, thanks Armin
As we come up on nearly a year, I figured I would add my .02 Euro...not as an archer of any particular skill, but rather as a beginner in eastern/thumb release style archery. However, my most relevant background is in golf and shooting sports. What does that have to do with "khatra" and archery? If you're willing to buckle in for a "TL/DR" style post, here I go... Many archers and rifle/pistol shooters attempt something philosophically similar when they make a shot. They attempt to create a moment of stillness in a chaotic environment, and to do so with consistency. Many archers shooting Mediterranean release strive to create an absolutely neutral bow hand...to the point that the bow basically falls out of the hand on release. A rifleman or pistolero will also seek a neutral, stable position from which to break the shot and, critically to our discussion, follow through. The combination of sling/grip/positional tension and follow through are the shooters equivalent to khatra (or lack of). The bullet of a rifle travelling down a 24 inch barrel at 3000 fps remains within the shooter's influence for only (2/1500) 1/750th of a second. The bullet of a handgun travelling down a 5 inch barrel at 1000 fps remains within the shooter's influence for only (5/(12*1000)) ~ 4/10000 ths of second. The time an arrow spends on the string during release is an eternity by comparison. Yet, despite this minuscule amount of time, shooter's will still ruin an otherwise good shot with bad follow through and bad trigger manipulation. How can this be possible? Simple. It isn't really about the thousandth of a second between when the shooter trips the sear and the bullet exits the barrel - it's about how the shooter's mental cues and physical posture at the moment of the shot influence the flight of the projectile. All the business about follow through is to keep the mind and body on the task of actually making the shot. This brings me to golf and Asiatic archery. What they both have in common is that they are dynamic shot making sports. They do not rely upon stillness or neutrality for consistency, but rather a routine/practiced set of actions. "Khatra" is the act of dynamically making a shot in a consistent, repeatable fashion when they release an arrow (in much the same way the USPSA/IPSC and 3-Gun shooters "drive" the gun onto the target, in contrast to Bullseye/PPC/F-class/Highpower shooters). It's not about what the archer does after the arrow leaves the string, it's about physical interaction created by the mental cues and practice as the archer makes the shot. Anyhow, curious to see what Herr Hirmer denkt auf mein idee. I enjoy the videos, so thanks for that.
thats quite a mouth full :) to sum it up: yes of course, like in all martial arts (what archery is for me and was all time) it is 80% mind (not ego) and 20% physical skills :)
Wouldnt using a chronograph to measure the arrow speed, silence the doubters once and for all? I enjoy your style and perspective on the many varieties of archery. Keep it going. Many thanks
I did in older videos already, that’s why for me it is no thing. And the ones who know everything better will still find something. That’s why I don’t overly care
I think it has something to do with the elasticity of the limbs. With elastic materials (like rubber bands or bow limbs) the speed or power of the spring back degrades the longer the material is stressed. So, if you hold at full draw, you lose some power after a few seconds. However, if you pull back and release quickly, the limbs do not lose as much power.
One thing that I do not understand, though, is how moving your bow arm doesn't throw off the aim. It would be helpful to see it in slow motion from behind, looking down the arrow shaft, to see how the arrow's trajectory leaves the bow while the bow arm is moving. In the Western draw, if you let the bow arm move, it throws the shot to the right (assuming right-handed shooter) because the bow nudges the back of the arrow as it passes. This would not be the case if the arrow is on the right side of the bow, but then if the arrow is resting on your thumb, your thumb might push it. Or, changing the angle of the bow while the string is in motion would seem to affect the arrow while it is still on the string. How the arrow goes straight during all this movement is a mystery.
Whether shooting a bow, throwing a dart, or hitting a golf ball, follow-through makes a difference.
My dos centavos... two parts to this discussion. 1. Does it work and 2. Why. 1. If done right it does result in increased arrow speed and/or better arrow flight. 2. There is a longer power stroke and/or less arrow contact w the bow. There is movement of the draw and bow hand. Some do one or the other, some do both. Some do it right, some don't.
thanks
Thanks for the reply. I have found if I dont use khatra applying twist to the bow my arrows dont fly straight. With the correct amount of twist my bare shafts fly perfectly straight but without the twist flick the arrow nock end always turns in direction of outside of the bow, I use thumb release.
Opinions are opinions.
My new Horse bow gets delivered from China tomorrow. Then I try Khatra. Can,t wait
Great vid.
Of course, take it slow and have fun
Thank you ;) Katja does all the things you said. Plus for me its just more fun because of its natural dynamic ;)
I think the way sometimes gamers drag their aim and click during the last second flinch to hit their target, This technique also allows a minute adjustment at the final moment
Excellent analysis Armin
thank you Norman
When i remember my phisics lecture correctly then momentum is a vector quantity so the momentum has a direction. The direction backwards shouldnt have an direkt effect on the momentum foreward. But the momentum backwards has an indirect effect because i think on the one hand the friction is different then without over drawing because the system is in motion and on the other hand i think the release will happen more clear. But for that an easy experiment would be nice for example an arrow with a stop at 30“ would work combined with a speed test.
Kathra i think brings more tension in the system and supports therefore the acceleration.
Just my thoughts i am only a biochemist so not so much knowledge about physics anymore
Case 1: pulling the arrow back further
It's like a spring, or gravity. If you toss a ball up, when it comes back down, it'll have the same speed in the opposite direction. Similarly, even if you pull the arrow backwards, it'll eventually come back to the same position with a same speed forwards.
Case 2: Snapping bow forwards
This is even better than case 1: In fact, its exactly the same if you take a reference frame such that the center of mass of the bow+arrow system is stationary. But, you have to add the velocity of the reference frame (how fast the bow moves), which is how much better this is than case 1.
If you kick a ball thats coming towards you, it will fly further than kicking a stationary ball.
Batting a fast pitch compared to a sluggish pitch same thing.
Momentum allows the light object(ball/Arrow) to drain more Energy from the heavy object(foot/bat/bow limbs).
On another Note here is something interesting elastic Materials do: They Heat Up while Stretching and cool Back down when they Return to their original shape. You can test this with a thin piece of Rubber against your lips. This thermal Energy will be lost when anchoring very long.
Thanks Sir for the momentum... Alhamdulillah
Thank you Sensei
But this pulling the arrow back farther increases the drawing power by inches = more power.
It would appear that the greatest benefit of Khthra would be the forward flipping or rotational turning of the bow to allow more of a clean “centerline” shot, and less archers paradox effect of forcing the arrow around the bow and increasing the flexing of the arrow. Am I wrong?
Love any information on the bow your using🙏
Very interesting ! Thanks for taking the effort to explain this. It makes perfect sense to me now :)
welcome Mark, I am happy if it helps. Thanks for watching
Shooting a tartar bow , thumb ring and all . Very cool …. Thx
Thank you for all your videos, I have not been able to find much technical info on this style of archery my favorite is horse archery or running around while shooting. I have a mind 50 bow, I really like the look of the bow in the video I am curious what bow it is.
Hi. This is a turkish bow from AliBow. Short and smooth and really nice to shoot. Thanks for watching
Wow... It is already a discussion for a long time. I'm just starting to learn about horsebow and all the technical aspects of it. I already practice barebow archery. So I see Khatra as different point of view.
In modern bow they have sight window to make the arrow shot straight. This was not the case for traditional horsebow who has not sight window. So if you don't apply Khatra, the arrows would fly right sided. I think Khatra would in fact remove some obstacles in horsebow archery release. For example collision of the arrow to the bow hand and the bow. That's why the arrow fly faster.
My more experience in horsebow friends use to tell me, if you apply correct Khatra, the arrow would not graze your bow hand.
Are my analysis and my friends opinion correct?
(I'm sorry for my bad English)
Collision on cowhand happens mostly because of arrow nocked too low. collision with bow is avoided with khatra
When I was a kid at primary school I was king of our marble patch of dirt. Kids that fudged their shot (pushing with the firing arm ) got more power but less accuracy. The better kids did not. I found that the least set of muscles used, the more accurate and consistent the shot. Maybe a bad comparison but thought I'd mention it. Khatra is created by muscle in constant tension and is more consistent, as far as I can see, never having shot a horse bow type. Point ; Comparisons are pointless if a difference can't be measured. Accurately check arrow speed with and without. Hence the debate. I like Khatra. Looks more fluid and cool but for some, if they still can't hit the target applying it, what's the point ? An observation from the inexperienced.
Well obviously I missed this topic at the height of its debate but I wanted to still comment. Just watching a few of your vids, I feel you are quite knowledgeable of traditional archery (the term 'traditional archery' seems to have a few different meanings depending on who you speak to)... I did see the analysis that Greg from Archery 101 did on the demonstration of the khatra technique. Without going over again what others have I'll just say that from your video here, it seems to me that khatra, and the way you explain the push/pull dynamic, is very much as in martial arts when you deliver a punch and to get the maximum power of that punch you punch through your target (similar to what the bow support hand is doing) rather than your fist stopping as soon as you touch the target. I think that unless a person is an advanced archer who actually practices khatra to the point where they are very proficient at the transfer of energy that they would have a hard time doing it correctly with the proper timing. The video that Greg from Archery 101 critiqued showed the archer using the khatra movement but it didn't appear to me that his timing was right, hence the arrow was already gone by the time his bow hand rotated forward... Again, if you have never studied martial arts and you try to demonstrate a punch with great form, you probably won't do it to the same effectiveness as someone who has practiced that technique for thousands of repetitions... "I don't fear the man who has practiced 10,000 techniques... I fear the man who has practiced ONE technique 10,000 times." - Bruce Lee.
thanks, exactly my thoughts
I knew it was coming...the Bruce Lee quote!! I am getting the hang of it. Thanks Armin and I guess RUclips(only because this was where I found Armin), I find that it is one of those things...when done right, it FEELS RIGHT. It wasnt even really what I would describe as a learned thing. It just clicked with what I was already doing? Hope that makes sense. It was NATURAL maybe? Flowed? Any way...I get it now lol That is coming from a Compound Archer for 35 years, totally different but naturally sort of the same. Yes I use release aids and sights...but I judge Range by instinct. I draw and judge distance apart from the Sight Pins, they are only used to decrease the area of miss. I found I can get with in say 5 yards(by pin distance I have set...like 20,30,40 50 yards)...I draw and "Instinct" tells me here...look through Peep Sight on string and use closest Pin to "Pre determined distance" means dead Deer, or stump. Shrinks the "Hit zone" quite dramatically at off ranges, especially from 35 to 50 plus yards. Inside of 35...well I dont even think it makes much a difference. Khatra, was a whole New Experience as was Asiatic Archery...right side of the bow? WT.... lol But it does have a natural feel to it. I will be probably one of the only fellas in the Hunting woods this year, shooting an Horse Bow and Thumb release...cant wait to see the looks on their faces at Deer Camp 🤣😜
You are rt my friend when you get it it just feels correct. I find it more akin to throwing darts than shooting arrows. Keep practicing and the more dynamic the release will get. Shoot well
Awesome 😁
Very nice explanation. Step by step.
Thank you very much for this great explanation!
welcome! and thank you for watching
OMG, tried it, shit at first. At 20yds over periods of time, felt like catapult shooting. Fun stuff, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, felt really part of it all when it did. Oh well throwing an arrow with intent is sometimes not as regimented as it is supposed to be. Can you project your chi through force of an arrow, now there is a thought often pondered.
Itll come so naturally that you won't even know your doing it until you do it wrong
Still practising khatra with my keshig bow. Do you hold your bow with even light pressure or preferentially grip more with the ring and little finger?
From pinky to middlefinger
I'm a PhD physicist and I can guarantee you that Khatra makes physical sense. The momentum part you said doesn't make much of a difference physically speaking. You could compensate for the inital momentum you put on your bow hand by pulling the bow more and getting the same results. What is crucial here is that by removing the bow from the path of the arrow you don't lose speed to friction and also you dont let the bow convert part of the speed you are gaining to a lateral speed. I can write you a diagram if you'd like. What matters is that in the end the Khatra physically improves arrow speed and precision by removing the bow from the front of the arrow
thank you, at the end you do khatra and snap release to get the real max out of the bow
I taught myself to shoot when I was 8 on a bamboo self bow I made. I started out shooting Slavic totally by myself. I also started shooting snap draw without being told. I have been shooting like this ever since and only recently have I learned that other people do this or that it has a name. Funny how things that work get independently invented.
Armin, thank you for your videos. Your chanel is awesome. Do you have some videos about accuracy in different styles of archery - mediterranean, thumbring(with/without khatra and thumbring)?
That's a good question, I will cover that topic soon. Thank you
I did not even know about Khatra so thanks for the video. even if it makes no difference in terms of the physics - the motion is more relaxed and natural - more true to the natural world. A bird does not flap its wings from a rigid point.. its a wave of flowing motion. all of nature shows us this-
Wouldn't the fact your hand is moving backward mean it would have to overcome rearward momentum before imparting any forward energy to the arrow? Remember Newton's law an object in motion tends to stay in motion in a straight line and at a constant rate until acted upon by an outside force. That would mean the forward momentum of the bow from its rotation would simply be an effort to overcome the arrows rearward momentum. I maybe wrong but, that is how I remember Newton's law.
Hallo Armin, ich denke das Khatra sehr gut funktioniert, die Theorie darüber ist auch logisch. Ich selbst hab es jetzt selbst probiert, mit Vorspannung ( Seitlich) oder mit Timing seitlich und nach unten-außen. AUCH das mit dem release mit der die Bogenhand drückt und dann los lässt. Habe einen Reiterbogen ( Tatar) vielleicht ist der nicht der beste , aber sicherlich machbar für Khatra. Also wenn bei mir das Timing stimmt , dann treffe ich ganz gut, aber meistens berührt der Pfeil den Bogen. Also über RUclips ,Khatra lernen klappt für mich nicht so gut. 80 % der Schüsse sind immer rechts 20 cm + bei 10m Entfernung. Vielleicht gibt es ja einen Trick , Kniff, den hab ich aber noch nicht raus gefunden. Danke für das Video....weiter so.
Thank you for explaining Khatra I sent a text the other day about my shelf on my bow wearing I shall try and shoot copter a style Mediterranean release thank you very much Glenn Bayley 😉👍🇬🇧
As usual, I see this video late!!! But not too late !!!!😄😄😄
Thank's Armin cause I just understand with you , if I don't mistake that the hand on bow start to move and make release the other hand on string .is it right? I tried release and after khatra but I think it didn't work cause the arrow is already far when khatra ´s done....
training, training and training again!!!!
Thank's again for your so usefull and clean videos!!! 🙏😊🙏
Richard😎🇫🇷
Thank you. This explanation helps a lot.
welcome. thanks for watching
look closely at when he releases. it's not the tilting of the bow but instead the extra draw length that he pull at the last second
this is exactly what some people here on youtube think. instead of really looking closely and see that I was not in full draw before. I did not draw more than usual
Do settle it once and for all why do't you just procure a high speed camera and show everyone doing your technique? And also why not do a side by side comparison of you shooting through a chronograph? I keep rewatching the video and you're doing it discreetly but to me it looks like right before you release you're pulling your draw hand back another inch or two and the arrow has left the string by the time you've begun tilting your bow.
inf act you admit as much a couple seconds a couple seconds before 5 minutes. You're increasing your speed by augmenting the length of your powerstroke at the last second.
I may have to disagree with the statement that Mediterranean draw is a few hundred years old while other techniques are thousands of years old. There is ancient artwork and other sources depicting Mediterranean draw used in ancient times and all throughout the middle ages. Of course it differed from the modern olympic style (if you compare people who shoot English longbow with people who do olympic archery they differ A LOT), but both hold the bowstring in a similar way, and both put the arrow on the left side... and both are generally referred to as Mediterranean draw.
I suppose it would be more accurate to say that the olympic archery (aka. freestyle recurve) and its predecessor, Victorian era British archery, are a modern, young technique and a subcategory of Mediterranean draw.
I think the general pattern here is that modern sport archery (and that goes for compound bows too), tend to go for lower draw weights, and thus the archer can reach full draw length and still has a second or two to aim the bow before their arms start shaking etc., resulting in a static release. This seems optimal for low draw weights, when the goal is to score points by hitting as close as possible to a bullseye on a soft target. On the other hand, in archery styles that are more combat oriented, archers go for the highest draw weight they can reliably shoot, but this means they can't reach full draw and still spend time aiming. They must do a dynamic release, or lower the draw weight. Because combat efficiency was the goal, they would go for the higher draw weight and a dynamic release - which makes khatra, overdraw, and many other techniques optimal for this style of shooting.
I can see your point...from the Military Use aspect of Horse Archery/Flight Shooting. That being said Accuracy is still very good when shooting this style with Khatra. I am just as accurate shooting Horse bows as I ever was shooting Compounds with full sights,peeps, stabilizers and all the bells and whistles. I dont shoot Olympic weights, but the "Let-Off" from the cams means I am not holding but a 35% of the 70 pound draw weight. I could always hold my old 25% let off bow a long enough time to be super accurate so on History:Yes. As much as these Ancients were required to practice...not sure they sacrifice too much accuracy in their style?On using "Overdraw" technically the wrong term. Maximum Draw more like it. It may have been more a part of bow design and use of MASSIVE curve and recurve designs? Humans do like pushing limits...look at NASCAR LOL Why stop with "Stock" when just I wee bit of tweaking something can boost performance! Right? know you knew that also, just didnt bring it up....if not I just wanted to bring it up! NOT TROLLING YOU! They are similar, like rifle shooting Iron Sights and Black powder compared to Scoped and Smokeless Powdered Cartridges. Eh, hope you get what I am trying to say. Can you imagine what "Traditional Archery" would be like today, if not for the invention of FireArms? Almost like wondering how much smoother, Kentucky Bourbon would be, if not for Prohibition and needing to star over!
@@adamparsons1725 To be honest, I don't have that much experience with archery - just started about a year ago, backyard shooting, so I'm not entirely sure what to think about all this. Some sources say that in competitions, people shooting barebow tend to score much lower than those shooting with sights, stabilisers, clickers and such, whereas competitive compound shooters score the highest.
So I assume compound bows and bows with extra gadgets do make it easier to shoot consistently, if anything.
However, since I'm just a beginner, shooting inconsistently whether I shoot barebow or with sights, I can't really judge from my POV ;)
On the other hand, the statistics I've seen may be somewhat skewed, in that even though they're international, they were very western-styles-centric. Barebow was mostly English longbows etc.
I'd have to compare against say Korean archery championships, Mongolian archery championships, and so on.
Then there's of course horseback archery, though I think the accuracy there is definitely lower, as they tend to shoot at much closer distances. Though that's understandable ;)
And of course world champions are one thing, but in military we'd have to consider the average bowman.
Either way, I'm interested in both historical and modern archery, and personally, I'd like to have a Japanese yumi made of carbon fibre and other modern materials, and designed as a take-down for easier transportation... so that I could practice backyard kyudo xD
... one can dream.
Hallo Armin. Ich fand die Erklärung sehr gut. Würdest du generell Kathra für einen Daumentechnik-Anfänger empfehlen? Ich hab jetzt ne ganze Weile trainiert und die Pfeile treffen auch schon ganz gut...zumindest auf 12 m ;)! Aber bei mir dreht sich der Bogen eher nur zur Seite, als das er wirklich kippt.
LG André
Die ersten paar Pfeile ohne, eh schon viel zu lernen. Dann einfach Druck mit der Daumenwurzel nach vorn und mit dem kleinen Finger nach hinten. Wenn der Bogen (wie bei uns) immer leicht gekantet ist - sollte das fast von allein klappen :)
Armin Hirmer Danke. Werd fleißig weiter üben!
I've been learning and using Khatra for while now though I'm still seeking more knowledge about that skill. From my shooting, what I learned from using Khatra is that, it makes my arrow trajectory flatter with lesser fish tailing. Based on my observation that is. Maybe that's what makes the arrow seems to shoot faster because instead of using normal arrow trajectory, the Khatra makes the arrow fly more flat hence spending its energy more on it's flight until it's drop. I'm using forward Khatra with a bit of side torque applied in my bow hand. My bow are crimean tatar style 45 pound. I wish that I know how to make a video for youtube, maybe then I can upload my way of shooting. Well that's just from me. I may be wrong, if it is please correct me.
Hi yes they shoot faster because of lesser problems like archers paradox, slapping on the bow and so on. And of course the "momentum" creates already this forward motion. But all in all it sounds very good, simply continue exploring and testing. When you find your way and it feels good, stick with it. There is not only one way to do it :)
The less extra arrow movement in flight the better. That means all forward energy is used for arrow flight and not fighting air drag across the whole arrow!! Therefore an increase in speed !!
Trajectory can only be more flat if the initial speed of the arrow is faster. Khatra cannot turn off gravity. The drop is 16 t^2 feet/sec^2 regardless of starting speed. But less time to target produces less drop. Faster = Flatter.
The fact that you release in motion removes the chance of your drawlength creeping inwards upon release. This could improve accuracy as well as arrow speed. The clearing of the bow from the arrow is a completely different effect, this seems on first sight an advantage of the khatra you demonstrate. I’m not a professional like you, just sharing my thoughts.
One side note I just thought of - when playing piano my teacher told me told play from motion into motion, not from still to motion. This ensures maximum muscle efficiency, so you don’t start off too slow in a fast run for example
right! thanks for watching
From my experience, the release should always be an extension. It's then straight and clean.
I live in the US.I cannot attend class there...a book would be nice.
I saw a 1 min video the other day that completely proves Khatra works. It was using a slomo camera, about 1000 fps, and it clearly shows the arrow STILL attached to the string after side khatra was imployed as the arrow left the bow. It's the clearest I have seen yet. The smoking gun as it were.
yepp
nicely explained. a question : using khatra is it possible to get tight groups or are arrows scattered? the movement is not 100% consistent and having different lengths at release might give the arrows a vertical pattern??
How tight of a group are you looking for? I am getting 3 arrows in a 3 inch group at 13 meters (max length I have to shot indoors at this time.) most of the time. Some would consider that good others not good enough. However I have only had my Turkish bow for 3 weeks. And have been learning and using the "Tilt and Twist" method. I have been using a thumb ring for about a year and a half. I got the same question from several archery instructors at the local club when I started using this style. In my opinion it really isn't that much different then trying to hold your hand steady. I found it easier to keep everything moving. For me it feels much more natural. I should mention that these instructors have never actually tried to use a thumb ring, they only saw it on RUclips and they saw me as a beginner. I will say it did take a lot shots to adjust to the arrow on the other side by it's all about practice, practice and more practice, as it is with any style of shooting. be it gun, crossbow, longbow, compound, recurve or selfbow. And it's a lot of fun to practice with friends of different shooting style and compare everyone's learning curve.
it takes a while to get there, but then you can shoot really tight groups
hehe I shoot tighter groups while doing khatra. And 13 m 3 arrows constantly in a 3 inch group is really good. Of course an olympic archer with sigh and release will laugh about it. But hey.
I thought khatra was about avoiding archers paradox that causes the artor to oscillate in the air. If you manage to make the arrow not to go arount the frame more power from the string is going to push the artow forward instead of oscilkations...
the arrow will always "wobble" a bit in the air. with khatra you can go for stiffer arrows to reduce this wobbling. as you dont have to care hitting the arrow on the bow
Interessting. Is a kind of khatra possible with mediterrane Draw?
Khatra this way not. If then you need to bring the bow in the inside
@@ArminHirmer OK. Tried it. Have to praxis more. Seems it works.
I use the Mediterranean 3-finger draw/release, but I'm trying to learn the thumb draw/release on my own, since there's no one in my country that can teach me, but the arrows always fly to the right. I know there's something that I'm not doing right
no worries, that is normal as you have to get used to a bit different way of pointing to the target and of course the arrow goes now over the right side of the bow. might take a few shots, then you have it
Mr. Himer
what kind of bow is that and what is made of
Looks like a Turkish bow by Alibow, it’s a laminated bow out of wood and fiberglass
@@ArminHirmer thank for your reply
Mr. Hirmer, are you canting the bow a bit when using thumb release and khatra or are you holding the bow vertically? Does it matter one way or the other?
I like your videos but I cannot see how the arrow can move any faster if the bow, draw length and arrow are constant. Unless you are moving forward while shooting (adding momentum)... I'd like to see a test of arrow speed and accuracy with different khatras in comparison to standard stance. Perhaps you'll feel compelled to make this video. I am just curious to find a verifiable/measurable truth on the subject. My experience as an archer is much lower than yours.
Thank you very much
Thanks a lot for your video Armin. Can you explain the difference purporse between side khatra vs forward khatra? (sorry for my english)
Yes I might do a video about it
Thank you. I still don't understand why the 3 fingers style called "meditarreinian". As for khatra I'm now learning it, and it isn't easy to get used to it
If u made a training video/dvd etc... I would pay good money for. For thumb release, Khatra instinctive etc...
I shot bows from a young boy as a Native Indigenous and can,t get enuf of your teachings.
Can someone shooting mediterranean style make use of this by coming to anchor, then drawing a tiny bit further and releasing in one motion? Is that actually what olympic style archers are doing when they use a clicker?
the Olympic style is a bit different... they use the clicker to make sure to reach their full draw and maybe yes a bit making use of momentum, but that is not their intention. But to answer, yes of course you can use this method of flying anchor in mediterranean style.
Draw hand motion and bow hand motion of Olympic archers is essentially identical to forward khatra shooting in terms of mechanics and use of inertia. They don't hold onto the bow so there is no forceful flip, but the push pull expansion and action of the wrist is the same.
There is no sideways khatra element because it isn't needed.
HI Armin, do you think that grasping the bow mainly with the little, ring and middle fingers is a mild form of khatra as it causes the bow hand to release torque in a similar fashion? I find my accuracy is far better this way.
the different pressure of the 3 fingers already creates a slight momentum yes. thats why is it recommended to hold the bow like this :) thanks for watching
You are excellent. Thank you.
In video game terms, compound bow would be easy. Olympic recurve is normal, barebow is hard, and horsebow with khatra very hard :D You just have to have a feel for it.
A lot fo people that shoot slingshots do this naturally, and I always felt it helped.
Hello Armin, I wondered how the Khatra works for the classical mediterranean release with the arrow on the left side. And does a shelf affect it in any way?
Thanks in advance!
it is another kind of follow through, but yes it exists and works. But you need to rotate the bow to the right instead
ok,im doin it already like that an make progress on it.just wanted to ensure that im doin it right.
thanks for the super-fast reply!
Hi Armin, 3 finger shooting style isn't only a few hundred years old. Longbow goes back to 2700 BC. They certainly didn't shoot longbow with their thumb. Short bows are fun and using a thumb draw is a challenge for sure. Are they as accurate as the modern longbows or recurve bows? I don't think so but maybe you have a different idea. When accuracy counts, I believe modern recurve bows are the most accurate followed by modern longbows. Hence the 3 finger shooting is probably much more accurate than the thumb draw.
the native folks of course had longbows, but mostly they used pinch draw and mixed styles. Yes of course modern bows will help in accuracy and if this is your only concern, they will be better. If versatility and speed is a concern too, it will look different. And at the end it comes down to proper training. I shoot the same with three finger or thumb
@@ArminHirmer and you are a great inspiration. I like watching your videos learn a lot from you and I have a lot of respect for you. According to my research, even the Medieval times which started in 5th century, the longbow had at least 90 pound draw weight. There is no way a pinch draw or any other than Mediterranean draw could work with these heavy bows. I usually hunt with bow and arrow and because of the size and the knock down power, I use bare compound bows with Mediterranean draw. One day I will hunt with a Turkish bow with a thumb draw but I really need to get better at it. Please keep making more educational videos and pass the knowledge on us. Take care!
I do archery at an intermediate level, and I play guitar at a high level. I've always felt that regardless of "proper" form, the proof is in the pudding. If it works for you, it works. There really isn't much more to say than that.
I love this channel. But I also enjoy several others including 3D Archery's. Can I please ask that everyone you is calling people morons wind their neck in. Armin gave his opinion and challenged naysayers reasonably and calmly. Let's all try to follow suit. Let's celebrate trad archery. After all, despite our differences, at least we're not compound-bow operators (notice I didn't say archers). And if you hadn't spotted it, that's a joke. But see how easy it is for a comment to get tempers flaring. So let's just enjoy Armin et all and if it works for you, use it. If not don't 😊
Gary Chynne did a very interesting video where he shows that he also performs a type of Khatra while shooting a longbow with 3 fingers.
I think this is true I don,t own a chrony but I have to say it seems the arrows go faster when i snap shoot I just can't hit anything like that ha ha.But that is my personal fault. I say don't knock it till you try it.thanks for the video
all about timing and not to harsh moves. start very short distance and you will see - you will be same accurate as "normal"
So what I take away from your presentation is that Khatra works by applying excess draw force in the final 3 to 5 cm of the draw, causing your drawing arm to accelerate backward and acquire kinetic energy, which translates to extra elastic energy stored in the limbs, thereby increasing the power of the shot.
Have you measured the speed differences?
I did in other videos
Haha, I know the youtuber in question here. It surprises me that someone dedicates a few hours to this, shooting with a center cut recurve bow with a pistol grip, and calls bullshit on it right away. To me that's not a sign of an expert, or an intelligent man for that matter.
Hehe
I stumbled across that video not long ago, and was dumbfounded by the purposeful ignorance demonstrated.
Not intelligent? Okay. I will happy retract my point if anyone can show it to me outside of the mythical elements.
What I said and I stand by is that the increase in speed was caused by increased draw length. Not by “Khatra”.
Now, “Khatra” is the reason for t increased draw length, that much I acknowledge. But it is not the reason.
@@3DArchery you're a 3 dimensional moron.
3D archery you are modern archer shooting with 19th century recurve bow with traditional western style so you didn't understand about traditional archer
is any difference to calculate spine for khatra?
spine does not have that big impact while shooting with khatra. no archer's paradox or so
Regarding your film. I'm afraid you are wrong. "Khatra", assuming such an understanding as in this video helps to get more speed shot, but not because of "momentum", but because of the physical properties of the material, plus "ring effect". Let me explain. Still many archers believe the muscle reaction alone can affect the release. For example, the forward rotation of the limbs caused by the tension applied by the fingers of the bow hand (known as "khatrah"), the deliberate twisting of the grip, the movements of the arm or flexing of the hand at the wrist are said to “steer” the arrow. According to slow-motion films, the muscle reaction is much too slow to have any effect on the arrow passing the bow’s grip. The arrow is free of the grip within no more than 15ms for slower bows and less than 10ms for the fastest flight bows. The muscle reaction only shows after the shot how the archer applied the stresses to the limbs during the shot. The arrow has the time only to react to the stress in the limbs provided by the muscle tension, and released by the limbs instantly to effect the correct arrow path during the power stroke. The “internal ballistics” of the arrow will directly influence the arrow’s angle of departure from the bow as well.
But while performing the"khatrah" there is something else. During static release when the thumb is released, the string slides out of the ring at a distance abt. 0.5-1cm. This slippage is slow in comparison to unimpeded movement of the string immediately afterwards. In this way the draw length is practically shortened by this distance and the bow is less powerful, which gives slower shot. Of course, the arms of the bow also distort stronger (start to creep) when are kept so long under the tension, which reduces the strength of the bow. During dynamic release ("khatrah" and "flight" technique), the grip is pushed forward and the string is jerk backward, the same the losses when the string leave the thumbring are smaller. Usually in this case an arrow is also being overdraw which also increases the initial speed.The bow does not lose the length of draw, it is stronger and greater arrow speed. Also the creep of the material is smaller. In the case of bows made with natural materials, dynamic shot also gives faster shot because of the physical properties of tendons, wood and horn, which are called "Viscoelastic". This means they have a greater mechanical rigidity which increase bow drawing force when they are deformed very quickly. Therefore, the "natural" bows are actually faster in this case. Definitelly "khatra" helps to get a CLEAN shot, in which the arrow shaft does not rub against the grip.
Many people forget that the arrow has two nod point and the archers paradox effect both of them. once the string is let go the front of the arrow is already pressing against the riserand since force applied is force returned the arrow kicks out from the riser like a push kick and starts paradox . And thearrow leaves the string once the string stops at he brace heighs so if you are moving your hand at this point performing some sort of active follow the nod point has passed the riser and the energy transferred. Unless your superman and manage to hit the back of the arrow to straiten out the paradox.. in flight...
Why do you always mention "over drawing the bow" ?? These bows are designed to reach maximum draw weight at those lengths! My KTB does NOT reach the 40# weight until it is drawn to 31in. That is NOT OVER DRAW" Your western bow is tiller to reach maximum weight at 28in the industry standard. You can over draw it. Asian bows are tillered to reach their draw weight at long lengths to take advantage of the lever action of the limb tips. Just makes any weight bow easier to draw form the back of a horse!! your trying to compare apples and oranges. stop!!
If you are right about the role of the viscoelastic effect, then the effect of dynamic khatra on arrow speed should not be as dramatic when performed with a fiberglass bow as it is with a bow made of natural materials because fiberglass takes essentially no set.
great style
thank you :)
ok
Hey I get it
U r genious sir