PoE Theory: What are Hinekora's Visions in ToTA? What is the Fulcrum of Destiny?
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- Опубликовано: 28 июл 2024
- Can the future-past tell us what happens at the end of our current PoE 1 timeline? I think so! Somewhere deep in Hinekora's riddles... and hair... are some very interesting bits of foreshadowing.
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Timestamps:
00:00 Intro, Hinekora and Tawhanuku
07:10 Future-Past
09:14 Chaos
10:27 Progenitor & Lightkeeper
12:58 Order
14:29 The Cowardly Impulse
17:05 The Glossary
23:09 Remaining Questions & Hinekora's Visions Begin
23:57 Vision 1
25:21 Vision 2
26:16 Vision 3
27:02 Vision 4
29:01 Vision 5
31:17 Vision 6
32:33 Vision 7
36:37 Vision 8
38:15 Vision 9
38:42 Vision 10
42:00 Vision 11
42:45 Vision 12
47:13 Recap & The Fulcrum of Destiny
53:16 But What Else?
55:56 Random Visions
1:01:40 Conclusion & Predictions
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Oriath.net for Quotes 
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POE Lore Lovers: DORYANI!? Everyone else: Is the Doryani in the room with us right now? Do you see the Doryani?
I'm sure it was noticed a long time ago but seeing her name written out in that dialog made me realize Alva Valai is just an anagram for "Vaal I Vaal"
39:49
"Demonbound Crafting Bench" when you use a Riker Maloney veiled craft: "Poor, poor Riker. Try as he might, Wraeclast will never give his family back."
...Ok, that gives more credence to the "Masked One" being Riker.
The Vaal bears the symbol of the fulcrum, the pyramid, triangle, mountain. The Vaal empire itself, the only event in time that does not move, is the fulcrum which all events past and present balances on.
I think that The Beast is the essence of ultimate ambition and realization. Doryiani must have finished what Xibaqua didn't. And by doing so Doryiani got the attention of the stars. In a flavor text Doryiani states that "people thought that they were affected by the stars but one day would come where we would influence the stars".
I believe that Xibaqua and Atziri are the beginning and birth of the Scourge that Doryiani prevented by bringing on the cataclysm. Therefor Doryiani removed the single outcome of endless unsatiated blind ravenous hunger that would be nothing but the Scourge and created possibility and different outcome for the future from that point, the fulcrum, that was the Vaal.
Maybe Doriyani realized that they had to give back their flesh to the gods in order to become a droplet of pure light, a state that The Lightkeeper wanted for and intended the First Vaal to be.
All things must pass, something Xibaqua refused and as we were created and lingered in our form he lead us astray through his carnage.
But Doryani refused to tread water and would rather see it end in order to return as pure light to the Lightkeeper.
Or Doryiani is Beidat.
really like this
Regarding the Key from Vision 12, I think it might be Starforge. We know Zana saw it when she was a child and we know it is possible to Dream something in the Dreamworld and make it. While Starforge was the Key to sealing the Elder, it might be required for another eldritch being
Exactly what I was thinking. Lines up much better with the release of the king of the dream lands.
What I thought too. The vision at 57:45 could also refer to Starforge, "the weight of Time itself" referring to the fulcrum and cycle/circle of events ?
Could then the key being passed through many hands refer to existence of Voidforge and Echoforge?
When I heard the phrase "The volcano is mighty and towering, but it consumes all that live in its shadow. The nightmare ends when the dreamer is awakened." I thought that this might be related to Tangmazu and his "Nothing you do matters. The dream will end, and the dreamer will pass into the next world"
I always assumed "she of three faces" was Zana, because she knew our POE1 character in three distinct timelines. 1) War for the atlas, 2) War against Awakeners, 3) Introduction of the Maven/pinnacles. This corresponds to the 3 "endgames" poe1 has had (afaik)
I think the reason Hinekora is telling Alva not to "muck about in time" is because of her previous line... Atziri "always will and always shall exist". Alva is messing around with a Vaal Temple, Atzoatal, and we know that Atziri can show up inside the Temple of Atzoatal. There might be a timeline where Alva actually kills Atziri before the Fall of the Vaal can happen
i NEVER had i idea that Poe lore was soo deep. This blows my mind. Its like i am watching a video that interprets some ancient religious texts.
I think the 'cowardly impulse' is Hinekora and the Halls of the Dead, not the Scourge. The impulse doesn't show itself, and Chaos doesn't even appear to be fully sure that it exists (Trialmaster says "my lord has often felt", which is a very indefinite tone to take for a being that supposedly sees all timelines)--which would be very odd if it were the Scourge, given every other alternate timeline has eventually fallen to them except for whichever ones featured the Synthesis league (which fell to Venarius). The power the Last to Die uses to fight/escape from the Scourge originates with a pact with Chaos, even.
Furthermore, the 'cowardly impulse' is described as 'bringing together mortals in each era for the purpose of Order, a cold conflict that has raged eternal - with only one exception.' That exception *could* be the timeline Venarius dominated and that Alva visited, but it seems equally likely now that it refers to the Trial itself--a Valhalla-esque wargame that keeps the skills of the greatest warriors of the Karui sharp for some ineffable purpose tied to Order's whims. The fact that we arrive at the Halls of the Dead 'early' this league, and thereby presumably reveal them (along with Hinekora herself) to Chaos, might represent that one exception.
The only thing that ties the Trialmaster's dialogue to the Scourge is the use of the word "anathema" on both the ring and the dialogue title, but anathema is not exactly an uncommon word in the dark fantasy subgenre. It wouldn't be the first time GGG has linked two concepts that way, but outside of the connection it just feels like a very unfitting description of the Scourge, and the Trialmaster is way more definite about the 'cowardly impulse' serving Order than he is about it actually existing in the first place.
EDIT: To be clear, I agree that the Scourge is the thing that Chaos and Order need to come together to fight; I just don't think that specific line of dialogue was about them.
32:07
I'll throw a dart: I think this is a call-forward to PoE2, specifically to how we'll get our Ascendancy classes.
ExileCon 2023's big multi-person Q&A on day 2 confirmed for PoE2 that:
- Izaro's Labyrinth is not a thing in PoE2.
- Acts 2, 3, and 4 (which are themed after the Maraketh, Vaal, and Karui respectively) will each have one special activity you can do to contribute towards your Ascendancy. This lines up with having to undergo three challenges to prove ourselves, and Hinekora and the denizens of the Halls of the Dead being the "third test/challenge".
I think the mountain being carried is referring to duty, not family. There is a famous quote "duty is heavier than a mountain, death lighter than a feather" that was used in Meiji era Japan and then later used again by Robert Jordan in the Wheel of Time. I think this is what they are referencing, though vaguely.
Responding to 51:10 - I think Hinekora's "Truth and hope are enemies" line in her Scourge-related dialogue is same conclusion Kalandra came to: when you defeated the Scourge tile in the lake, she would say "You would lose all hope if you truly understood" - suggesting the situation is really, really out of control.
Is that in the same vein as the saying that fools make impossible possible, because they don't know it's impossible?
Interpretation of visions added post-video! Credit to the commentors!
SimSim: "Great leaders sink into quicksand of the mind. Only a shadow can save the blind." - Could be about Tasuni. He wanted to lead the Marakath, lost to Irasha, definitely spiraled a bit - who/what could the Shadow be that saves him? Maybe us and Sin?
Femfikon: "A spider sits atop a throne of artifice, spinning a web across the world. Corruption begins to ooze like blood across the sea, tainting unspoiled loam." - Could be Atziri, as Atziri spread corruption farther than most, and Atziri's legacy is also what corrupted the Kalguur "across the sea."
Metrypid: ""A simple sword against the weight of Time itself. The encircled princes laugh as their blood drains into the soil. The salvation of humanity will be it's undoing." - Could refer to us Exiles, who repeatedly defeat the campaign / maps / Eldritch beings each league, continuously "saving humanity" with no real end in sight (and dying, repeatedly, while us the "players" enjoy it).
To add to Femfikon's theory, in Act 5 or 10 if you enter a vaal side area a story is told by the research notes of the templar researcher Davaro, who started dreaming of Atziri after studying vaal relics. Maybe its possible to be corrputed by Atziri if one is inclined to be and sucumb to it.
PS: Sorry for any grammar errors.
A little theory - we the player actually experience the future-past by playing the leagues. Each league is another spin of the wheel of time. This would make us killing the Elder as well as "Elderslayers" doing that both cannon. We simply did it in another cycle. It also provides carte blanche for any future league to change things around - similar to how we meet Divinia originally and how we meet her now - while also staying true to the core idea that these things did happen but simply didn't this cycle.
As for "Masked One" saving his family, it might refer to the process of resurrecting them as "saving" - giving us some leeway as to what the crimson touching the mountain means and if it already happened or not.
This is my interpretation as well. It seems like a really neat way of making past leagues and older versions of the game that have been kinda retconned out "canon", in a way, and gives them leeway to retcon things in the future. Which I think makes a lot of sense for an evolving game like PoE.
I also think that might tie into the "you will know her by 3 faces, and she will know you by 3 faces" bit. Zana has had two iterations of her questline in the past already - the first where she's looking for her father, and the second where she's trying to put a stop to Sirus. Meaning she would know us by 2 faces so far, and if she returns to the game in a future endgame update, that would be a 3rd face.
Personally, I don't think Zana is likely to carry over into PoE 2 - I think they're going to want a fresh slate, and having a villain where understanding their backstory and motivations depends on you having played multiple (now-removed) iterations of PoE spanning back a decade... doesn't seem like a great move.
Absolutely agree about the future-past being a parallel to the way current canon works! Great example with us killing the Elder vs. the Elderslayers. It requires the same "key" events and players, but slightly different iterations. I also agree that "saving" his family could be the resurrection. He would certainly frame it as saving them (from death) I imagine. Still not sure what crimson touching the mountain peak is!
Some of the trialmaster's dialogue in Affliction hints at each league being a different timeline, too. He says that Chaos believes the Viridian Wildwood didn't exist until recently, while the trialmaster himself believes it's always been there.
my fist impulse when i heard "King of Dreams" was to assume it meant Tangmasu
the mad nightmare trickster god that was sealed away somewhere (DELIRIUM)
Absolutely excellent video. Wow, I do not ascertain most of the terms from Hinekora while playing through, but they all make sense in retrospect and, of course, you defining everything :)
Thanks for making this!
Upon reading up the lore for Affliction, I think "She with 3 faces" is the one being described by the wildwood masters. As for the time being cyclical. I think it also refers to the leagues, describing how the player comes back anew into the game.
Alva's line has been my favorite hinekora quote so far.
- Hey guys, have anyone seen Doryani?
Aaaand queue cataclysm.
😂
But I've would killed for World of Wraeclast. Just how awesome it would be, to have a full on Wraeclast to fully explore, with places to see, people to meet and quest to do.
"A simple sword against the weight of Time itself. The encircled princes laugh as their blood drains into the soil. The salvation of humanity will be it's undoing." -
Wouldn't be that about us, Exiles? We aren't gods even with all that power we gather, yet we fight things that are way above our pay grade, and as the Time in PoE is a Circle (essentially Leagues) we fight the same Eldritch beings over and over again even though it seems like it has basically no efffect.
We are trying to save the humanity, but from the recent times it seems that we are pushing Wraeclast into another Cataclysm which corresponds with what Hinekora prophetized about second Cataclysm being required to balance the Fulcrum of Destiny.
oh, i like these mysteries
56:18 may be referring to the Strange Voice being the shadow, where the blind leaders are ones like Aul, Atziri or Voll. It showed Aul the future as told on the Price of Prescience div card. It's a Sirgog's card, and he explained the lore behind it be it briefly, sounded like he just wanted a cool delirium-themed horror card. The leaders can be described as blind, as their short-sightedness lead to the fall of their civilizations, and as for quicksand of the mind - it's a metaphor for inability to escape one's thoughts (they had some grand ideas that they were really invested in) so it matches well with delirium and madness. Strange voice sure is shadow-y and seem powerful enough to save them, he just doesn't want to, i think.
Shadow might also be referring to the previous great leader's shortcomings as a metaphor, so that the next great leader can learn from their mistakes and avoid the same fate (Veruso had the right idea). They, however, always seem to repeat the same mistake, and so the cycle of rising and falling civilizations repeats.
57:45 got me thinking about the Domain of Timeless Conflict, where encircled "princes" (they all have different titles) fight with swords and such, in a place where time seemingly doesn't matter. It may be a domain spared from all the cataclysms and outside influences (besides the player (that doesn't really interfere with anything going on there)), they all seem sound minded and just enjoying a fight like they normally would. The legions don't seem to realize that they're even trapped, it can be argued that they are rescued and will probably remain there until the end of times. A dubious salvation of humanity.
Maybe the imbalance/threat of the scourge is the spilling of the alternate timelines that chaos sees into each other which is something that isn't supposed to happen naturally, and the "teetering" is the part of the scourge and the last to die who already have visited our Wraeclast from theirs
I'm wondering if there was a time constraint or at least a necessary sequence of events to follow based on the timing of resurrecting Riker's family. Or a sequence to be avoided. You know one of those causal relationships where if he had achieved his goal by this time he may have turned his talents to a significant purpose to great consequence. Or having failed to by then, his quest brings him into contact with forces that particularly should NOT have benefitted from his talents.
Crimson touching the mountain makes me think of the death of the beast. Upon it's death it's blood was all over that mountain. Perhaps it was important Riker not join the syndicate. After all, being one of three (with only 2 necessary) events that determine some final doom certainly could be considered carrying a mountain on your back.
"Jester" sounds like Envoy to me, having been deployed to keep Maven entertained, perhaps trying to bring Lightkeeper and Progenitor to Wraeclast... but I don't know who the meddlers might be or how it relates. Maybe "Meddlers" are the trapped elderslayers, or our characters, or something else entirely, but as to reflecting the world... it's opaque.
Interesting to note, Hinekora says that the Lake is the one place she cannot see into. Could Doryani be there? Even though Navali confirms that she seems to not be able to see into the Domain of Timeless Conflict either, so it might just be some other plane she is not aware of, as well.
Yeah, I also found it interesting that the lake is "the only" place she can't see into. But the Navali claims she can't see into the Timeless Conflict. I actually lean towards Navali not being truthful when she says Hinekora can't see into that Domain? Or maybe covering for why she didn't know Hyrri was there, since many chieftains are wondering about it? Kaom does suggest that we can't trust whether Navali is speaking for Hinekora truthfully, or if some words / opinions are Navali's own.
@@KittenCatNoodle While Utula has a bit of a radical opinion about it, the chieftains' worries that Hinekora is not much of a helpful host anymore are not unfounded. She seems fixated on trying to set the world towards salvation, be it from the Scourge or whatever other menace it may be that Order and Chaos are so riled up about. As far as we get to see, she spends all her lucid moments trying to warn us about the importance of "future" events, and if she is dreaming about past lives, that might be all that she is thinking of while asleep too, intentionally or not. While she obviously cares about the Karui people, it is clear that she doesn't have much time to deal with them anymore, as she has bigger fish to fry. Navali might be covering for her about Hyrri because her disappearance might not be truly important in the grand scheme of things, and she does not really care, or has had time to care about it, even if she knew where she was.
Or maybe she really couldn't see into that dimension, but unlike the lake which people have been able to locate and come back from, nobody successfully entered and came back from the Domain before us. Certainly not a Karui, who would've ended up in the Halls sooner or later and informed everyone just like we did. So perhaps Hinekora didn't mention the Domain because she literally didn't know what it was even if she really was aware of Hyrri's disappearance and actively looking for her, just like how she seems to be convinced that Doryani is still somewhere as she seems to have an idea that he might play an important part of the story that we do not yet know of (yes I am falling for the bait too).
from random visions:
the meddlers may be the replica researchers
the jester could be Utula
the cheerful cat and the grumpy dog are maybe the Maven and Envoy, or Alva and someone who doesn't enjoy her antics, perhaps Hinekora herself
"Two enemies, born opposed, clasped hands only once. The silent and the raging storm oppose the endless swarm."
To me this sounds more like the Elder (cause Elder and silence and being the "wall" that deterred other cosmic beings) and Sirus (as the Storm, for obvious reasons) actually working together (maybe even as the "same" entity) to protect the Atlas from the endless swarm of cosmic beings eyeing the Atlas, now that the Elder is gone.
New Noodle video is the best thing to happen this month!
Thank you for the media literate analysis! You voiced a lot of thoughts that I had. I'm so glad for Rakiata being included here.
Here are some of my own theories:
- Fulcrum of Destiny - this always struck me as the PoE 2, PoE Mobile release date - the point where all the storylines converge and form a moment where all the destinies are to be played out.
- The Countess' identity - I think that she may be the Godslayer, more precisely, the Scion. Some facts: She is an Oriathian noblewoman, and she was there during Oriath's destruction (we don't know if she meant the first one or the second one). She is someone who survived and traveled after that event (as we do after act 5, and after act 10 for a year with Lilly). She is someone who is knowledgeable about divinity and the means of stopping gods. She saw divine devastation firsthand (as we do in act 6-10). She is someone who has the power level to capture our player characters deep into the acts. The location of our capture is probably Oriath itself or nearby shores, in act 4 (Twilight Enclave on the map). And most importantly, I think the guard that holds the player character in the trailer is Kirac himself. Look at the sword, it has the glowing red marks that Kirac has on his poe1 armor. On top of that, the guard's head is covered by cloth ← surely a move by devs to hide his identity and avoid spoilers.
- Seed of Corruption - I think that Sin gave the seed to Innocence for his penance, so that his godly ambitions are always hindered by the corruption. I think this is why the Hooded One is Innocence in a changed form, more resembling that of his brother. We meet him in act 1 as his seed was stolen, so he's weak. But we travel with him as he regains strength, and this draws the ire of the Countess, who met Innocence before - in act 10 epilogue Innocence acknowledges the hatred we hold in our eyes toward him, before telling us that he's going to repent. This gives the Godslayer/Countess a motive to stop the PoE 2 character and be our enemy, because we're helping the corrupt god who caused her initial exile and tried to kill her in battle too - and also he's the reason for Lycia's disillusionment in the Templar Order and bringing about the horde of the scourge demons.
- The Key - I do think that the key in Zana's mind is a memory. Either the location of Cosmic Arcana or the theory/knowledge required to make it. It could also be something related to Venarius. We know that Venarius survived synthesis league and escaped into the Atlas, telling us that this isn't over. I think that Zana is currently hunting him, because he's the source of all her suffering.
I am really digging the idea of Scion being the Countess! Especially because she's not a playable class in PoE2. She would have seen the god's devastation first-hand and had more idea of how to combat it - it could also explain the framed portrait of Innocence; coming from the Templar's Oriath, but having battled Innocence - both against and alongside. Interesting!
I'm not as sure about the Hooded One, although I find that idea really interesting. Only because he says he's been trapped in a tree for a long time. 10, 15, 20 years could be a long time - and it's not like gods can't lie. Love it!
@@KittenCatNoodle If you are talking about the portrait that the Countess is looking at at the end of the newest PoE 2 trailer, it was confirmed by GGG back in August that it was temporary art that was supposed to have been replaced by a drawing of her son. Unless if you meant something else, I apologize if so.
About Vision 10 and the Masked One at 38:42
This was probably recorded and edited over many days, so the new teaser that came out with a person that has a mask might be related to what Hinekora said.
But "the Masked One must save his family before crimson touches the mountain peak..." might also be related to Einhar.
I might be missing some major lore about him, but he is quite the unknown.
Him trying to save his family by capturing a ton of beasts and finding a way to control them would be a good long-term goal for him.
Huge theory here: Crimson can be the Scourge as it often is and mountain peak may be the Sacred Grove.
The Scourge being able to juice themselves up with lifeforce? No thank you. Wouldn't want to see Uber Scourge bosses.
Jk, I want to. Please Chris 😳
There's multiple major characters with masks, to be fair. Not a whole lot, but yeah.
My first thought before KCN posited that "The Masked One" referred to Riker Maloney was "The Trialmaster" since he has that iconic mask, and it's stated that he himself is deep down not really happy with his current position as Chaos' servant.
Though since Trialmaster is labelled as "Chaos' servant", maybe "The Masked One" cannot be Trialmaster.
Side-note, if some of the Einhar "Atlas Memory" items are any indication, Einhar knows Oshabi and considers her to be a friend.
Please no juiced up scourge plant beasts... but yeah, the Masked One was probably the most uncertain for me. We don't know a lot about Einhar, except that he wants to get to a "grove" - considering how much Einhar loves everybody he's probably a family man, if he has one. Too many masked characters, not enough families. I'll be curious to see how it plays out! (But please no scourge harvest for reals)
can't wait for your next video, ty for your hard work!
BEEN WAITING FOR THIS FOR A WHILE NOW! THANKS!
There is a funny, non zero possibility that Envoy is Doryani, as Hinekora mentions them both in a single prophecy. Doryani has gone missing from doing something to the Beast - he reappears, missing his memories, and is made caretaker for the Maven, for higher purposes we may learn in future core game expansions. For all we know, she didnt even arrive to the Atlas at first, and was bored with realm she was initially given.
YEAH BABY! THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR!
Early christmas present, thanks for the video.
mmmm such lore, great work as always
it does seem like things are coming together quite nicely for one more big poe1 endgame update that at least resolves our troubles with the scourge, although it makes me wonder what impact that would have on poe2's endgame given that only a short while ago ggg's plan was to have a shared endgame for both. perhaps they have had enough time to engineer this seemingly more ambitious progression of both stories. confidence is high
I believe at Exilecon they announced it will be 2 different endgames. I probably should have said that in the video to explain why I think Hinekora's "Fulcrum of Destiny" is about PoE 1 instead of PoE 2! I'm a bit mixed about having different endgames (glad at least microtransactions exist between both accounts) but it makes sense - no idea how they would connect the end-games lore-wise when it's 20 years apart all the time, and nothing that happens in PoE 1 can change PoE 2.
What an adventure of a video. Amazing as usual, thanks 🎉
Just throwing it out there that Sirus replacing Elder is one of the translations that some people arrived at for the Harbinger items; specifically Yielding Mortality.
God I love these videos. I rewatch the entire series about once a year, and I think I'm due for a brush up
I am addicted to these videos and I will probably binge re-watch them all again until the affliction video is released :) Love your work Noodle, you made me addicted to POE lore.
One thing I mentioned in this video just now - didn't see it before, but it caught my eye - "The Arkhon's plan to rescue his daughter will fail, but you must try anyway". If it's referring to the events that happened years ago, as yes indeed Valdo tried to save his daughter, but "us" (the PC) had nothing to do with it and weren't present for the events. so the line "you must try anyway" doesn't 100% make sense here. You could argue that he is referring to the idea of defeating the Elder [in order to save Zana], and how we never actually "defeat" him so you could consider this failure, but then again we do sort of "banish" him and in doing this we are keeping the world and implicitly Zana "safe", no? And I was thinking, since this version doesn't 100% make sense - what if Hinekora is referring to something in the future? Something happening specifically to Zana and us having to rescue/help her, aided perhaps in some way by the Shaper? Idk if this makes sense, but it seems a bit out of place to me that this would refer to the events we already know because: 1. Zana didn't actually need any real saving and nobody actually "failed" to save her and 2. The PC was not involved in the episode, thus making the line "you must try anyway" sort of nonsensical.
Vision 10 idea: What if the Masked One is the villain shown in the PoE2 huntress video? He does have a mask. There are a lot of mountains. And there is a lot of crimson tied to both his design and whatever this source of corruption is in the PoE2 main story
I just want to say how much I respect and appreciate all the work you’ve done. I tried Path of Exile in beta, and didn’t give it much thought after that. 5 days ago I decided to give it a try, and it’s the most fun I’ve had in a game in almost a decade. The lore, the variety, the action; amazing. I have not been able to stop playing, and trying to find out as much lore as I can I stumbled upon your channel… and Im so happy I did! The lore in this game is so in-depth yet easy to look over, these videos are my bedtime pastimes for the last week!
I hope you also do a lore compilation for PoE2!! I don’t ever watch RUclips and I definitely don’t subscribe to anyone but you have won me over with your content. Thank you for all your hard work!! WE APPRECIATE YOU!!
As always thanks a lot for this great video!
I'm wondering if Tangmazu could have helped/tricked Doryani as well, if not them being the same entity? It would help explain why even Hinekora doesn't know about Doryani and why he's missing.
Also we have some interesting flavor text on Atziri's Foible about black and white being opposite sides of the same parchment but one in the same, and on Darkray Vectors about Sirrius flying faster than both wind and light but being unable to escape the darkness - made me think about Kalandra being unable to escape her lake no matter how fast she flew.
I thought I'd look through "the strange voice" lines...Tidal Islands about feeling compelled to stride beneath the waves, and it was either Hinekora or Tawhanuku who told us these halls are located beneath the sea.
He also tells us "one person's beginning is another's end. I wonder what your end will begin..." Hinekora does tell us what must and mustn't happen, but I don't remember her directly saying the result of these things happening or not happening if that makes sense. In other words it's possible that what needs to happen is all these things aligning for us the exile to cause the next cataclysm, an end that brings about a new beginning of poe2, or at least that's one (of the 12?) possible futures.
You posited whether serving a higher impulse means you have any contact or direct instruction from them. In TOTA they tell us it could be either for Karui and their gods...sometimes the gods ask them favors or they ask gods favors, other times the god has no impact in their lives or dealings beyond being a mascot or banner. I think this is ggg's sneaky way of telling us it could be the same for these cosmic entities.
The Halls of the Dead are definitely located somewhere in the sea where Ikiaho and Rakiata can sneak out and see the moon (so probably not literally the middle of the ocean). And we know that Tangmazu has had direct contact with Karui gods, in my opinion being Arohongui's true father.
I don't think that Tangmazu and Doryani are the same entity, but it's possible that Tangmazu isn't really a god, and is maybe a servant of Impulse, or cosmic, or even that the mirror / simulacrum is it's own dimension. Doryani has got to be in some other dimension, I think, because Order/Hinekora can see "time" whereas Chaos can see "dimensions" or possibilities.
I suspect with Impulses GGG is doing a bit of Eldritch stuff here - we can't pinpoint the exact functionality of Eldritch beings because they're Eldritch and thus inherently difficult to understand. At least, that's what I tell myself after my 3rd energy drink at 11pm trying to figure out whether I should add my theory about Progenitor/Chaos and Lightkeeper/Order because it's pretty wobbly but very red-string-tin-foil-hat compelling.
About Pale Gaze. There was also Pale Council that was thwarted by none other than Navali before her change. Are they linked? If Scourge (Though I prefer Krangle) was active way before it could be one of their plois. With Lysa being better one and old one canceled. Also Wht is relationship between Beyond, Breach and Harbingers with Scouge. It might be pure technical reasoning but lorewise it seems like Beyonders where different faction from Scourge and they simply fell to them... Breach holds off perhaps tu Unification (The uberlord we have not faced in his domain, but can get atleast hands if not meet in breach). Who where Harbingers harbingig? I missed the text translations, though they can be of Cosmic forces too.
After we got fulfillment on these Prophesies, likely in PoE 2, id love a video demystifying them. Cant wait for your next video!!
I have to say, your videos are amazing, but the one thing that I'm thankful more than the others is the appreciation of Divination Cards. Each one of them unique, beautiful both in art and flavor text. I love how you present them, finally the appreciation they deserve. They are not just glorified roulette. :P
again an absolute amazing video!!
Love that You were featured on official PoE page Noods ❤
Thank you! love the vids!
So excited for this!!
Interesting, in the she of three faces about Zana the dialog says: 'In her mind... lies... the key..." suggesting there are lies and a key or lies are the key.
While I agree the Maraketh test is likely PoE2 and the three challenges as well, there is the possibility that the three challenges are Dominus, Malachai, and the "we will be the third" may be her referring to her and the other gods. Again probably the former, but it's a possibility.
I hecking love you for making these. PoE has such fantastic Lore but I'm no where near having the brain power and focus to figure any of this stuff out myself. 10/10 thank you.
The Crimson could be the (edit) seed of corruption we're chasing in poe 2.
And I wonder if the masked man is the guy narrating one of the poe 2 trailers.
Thanks for another great job. Still sane, lore envoy?
/remark: trough time those videos made me appreciate poe lore so much more, lol, at times it feels like ggg decided to outshine warhammer or lovecraftian panteon lore. It's so damn interesting as thing in itself
5:19 I would assume, that "a vast mirror in the ground" is the lake itself, not some portal and so on. For a couple of reasons. It is easy to see, how someone like Tawhanuku would not call lake a lake, or mirror a mirror, but instead call lake "a mirror in the ground", because you can see reflections in the water and well... lake is in the ground. And the wording of if - "vast" is more often refer to nature objects, like "vast plains", or forests so on, rather then to stuff like literal mirrors. Also It is "IN the ground", not "UNDER the ground", like that mirror from expedition. So I would say, that it is just about the lake and has nothing to do with the expedition.
"Spider on his throne of artifice" sounds like Doryani to me, but it could also refer to the person that produced the Seed of Corruption that we will pursue in PoE2.
Could still be Doryani; he is known for his machinations and artifice.
"Only a shadow can save the blind" maybe there are PoE2 character-specific quests, and when you play the Shadow, you have to save Tasuni to ascend.
Regarding the talk about Kalandra and the Mirror at the ~6 minute mark, a calm lake surface is able to serve as a reflection, and this is commonly used as a visual metaphor. We can even see in the Kalandra clip you used that the surface of the lake is still and reflecting the sky above.
Maybe the real Doryani is the friends we made along the way
I think there is something metatextual about time in PoE being cyclical. Each league has us start the game again as a cycle again. I'm wondering if there isn't some nods to different playthroughs, order knows you'll progress through the acts hitting the same story beats each time, Chaos says each time will be different with builds, drops, enemy spawns and league mechanics. Which means chaos is the true random number god who decides if you get mageblood this cycle.
"They" built a temple AROUND a mirror. "They" did not necessarily build the mirror. they could have been hiding from the sky in their temple, trying to get knowledge from Kalandra about how to survive the Cataclysm.
EDIT "The masked one must save his family before crimson touches the mountain peak." What's Ryker Maloney's relationship to Korell?
Edit2: "A single sword against the weight of Time itself." options;
(1)Domain of Timeless Conflict,
(2)Catarina being skewered by Jun,
(3) Shaper and Star/Voidforge (whichever is the relevant one for that fight),
(4) ToTA itself.
"The encircled princes laugh as their blood drains into the soil."
(1) the Vaal, Maraketh, Eternal, Karui, and Templar leaders being reborn,
(2) The leaders of each of the factions being finally free of Catarinas influence, or knowing that they'll be back depending on their viewpoint,
(3) The map bosses that are the pre-fight to Shaper,
(4) the leaders of the tribes, knowing that Hinekora will revive them and enjoying the fight.
"The salvation of humanity will be it's undoing" ALL options. Us. We are the saviours of humanity, and we constantly make things worse by doing so.
Perhaps the last to die (verified being alva) is the woman of three faces. Im suggesting that a third "last to die" style of an alva will crucible over to us but bring the scourge either unintentionally or on purpose with her?
This means that the events "restart" by going further into the end of times and it begins again that does the same seauence, but in the hopes of something better. I think PoE 2 might be about going forward in time to the end and then begininning of time. The world being reborn means we are given another chance to have the best outcome, but it is us on the next restart.
I believe Sirus went for Chaos and went forward in time as he quoted he saw his friends leaving. He went together with the next restart where the new sirus vanished. Its a cascading siruses that is on the wrong part.
Given the new lore in Affliction, is it possible that 'she with 3 faces' is the predecessor of Solaris, Lunaris & Viridi? I.e., the Draigcht (or the maker of)?
Also, sorry for double-commenting, but very interesting that there was nothing about the Lightless in those prophecies, at all. I'm not sure if Affliction will be about them, or a different faction of powerful undead with bug-minions and skeleton totems (that sounds sarcastic when I read it back but I can think of at least one other possible option, although afaik they only appear in Maps), but they're definitely not like. A non-issue.
"The Abyssals creep forth by night and by storm. Their eons underground were not a respite, but an amassing, and now they number beyond comprehension."
EDIT: Thought of another possible option; Saresh, mentioned in the Metamorph scarabs, might be relevant here.
Sorry if this will be semi coherent, this are just my thought bouncing off what's said (and injecting some of my ideas with non-native speaker english)
About Zana/Three faces - the third face she 'knew' 'us' as could also be the Conquerors - we were them, at some point
Masked One/Crimson Mountain - -if- it is Riker, then that might be one of the three that can fail - he failed to save his family before we killed the beast in act 9 [where the Immortal Sindicate gets introduced] and him 'carrying' a mountain could just mean his grief (pure speculation, but knowing PoE, this could be amplified by Riker, either thinking he was, or actually were involved in his loved ones death)
Awakener/Zana/Key/King of Dreams - I think the 'key' might be just an idea, or maybe even a stong belief Zana has - that the Atlas is dangerous and should not be repetedly entered. She 'passes' this idea many times (to other npc, and especially us, exiles), but it is Sirus who finally (cannonicaly) picks it up and imprisons the Elder.
Meanwhile 'releasing the king of dreams' and 'removing the key from the lock' might be Hinekora refering to either what happened -before- he was imprisoned, or what will happen in the future.
'Removing the key from the lock' in this case means someone (like us, exiles) stops fearing the Atlas again. We might not see the Elder back yet, because Kirec is still the main force behind the atlas exploration (and containment), still holding to Zana's fear of the Atlas - the 'key'. If in a future expansion the Vanguard moves from just holding the line at the Atlas to activly trying to Conquer it, the 'key' will be removed.
Great leaders/quicksand/shadow/save the blind - this could be refering to the gods of Wraeclast - how 'great' people become gods, and fall into their own hubris/ pride, 'the quicksand of the mind'. The shadow could be Sin - literally a 'shadowy' version of his brother - saving those 'blinded' with faith in these gods.
In vision 5 Hinekora says:
"Cataclysms await down most paths, and those paths then turn on and eat each other."
Doesn't this basically says that humanity is the scourge or at least that they are involved in it's creation?
If we treat word paths as alternate realities/timelines, which we know they exist from Trialmaster and Last to die, then we will get that some kind of cataclysm will happen or already did in most of realities. Then those affected realities turn on and eat each other. Sounds like scourge to me, that invades other realities and literally eats everything that's alive.
This would also mean that this cataclysm is responsible for creation of scourge. I think corruption is that cataclysm, because mechanics from patch 3.16 when scourge was introduced revolved around corruption. In addition when we got blood crucible from Last to die she said that it will absorb corruption from scourge monsters when we kill them.
"When you assault them in the ravaged lands, you can steal some of their power. The Crucible will absorb the Corruption of those you slay. Do what you know you must."
BONUS
Realities that were affected by cataclysm give birth to scourge, which means that scourge isn't just one horde of demons, but rather infinite number of hordes, each from different reality. Maybe that's why our Wraeclast is invaded by three different types of demons each led by their respective lord (Beidat, Ghorr and K'tash).
I think the "she will know you by three different faces, as will you, her." line might be referring to your three possible ascensions (sorry Scion). Because of that, perhaps the three different faces you see of "her" might be referring to the different forms of "her". I think timelines are kinda wonky if you're essentially seeing the same person. The last to die is fundamentally a changed version of Alva and could be appropriate, but i don't think Alva from poe 1 and poe 2 are different people or different faces.
However i think Zana *could* be of three different faces. as we've seen her with her mysterious vaal-like magic in *your* shaper and elder fight (face 1), but during the elderslayers mission, she partnered up with her companions to fight against the elder without you, which could be her second face. note how she doesn't use magic to protect herself during the Sirus encounter. However you have not yet met her third face. She abandoned you (Sadge) and kirac after the discovery of the maven. Once she returns, you will see her third face, with new powers
played a ranger this league (affliction) and i was wondering if you have any plans on doing a video about ranger and her conection with the woods. Cheers love the videos
@KittenCatNoodle Could "the one with three faces" be The Shaper? That got "woven" into the Envoy. That would make him have 3 faces, he saw us before the conquerers, after them and will probably see us in PoE2. That also fits with the starry narrative? I don't know much of the lore, but listening to this video kinda popped the idea into my head, so I don't know if there are other sources to dispute it.
what is corruption and where it comes from? what's its relation to the scourge? what is the connection with the reflections and lake of kalandra? (theres gotta be one or how did sin got the seed), corruption of the dream is the nightmare? is tasuni the man with the mountain (highgate) on its back?
Also, perhaps the power of the lightbringer comes from physics determinism and that's how she sees the future by seeing the past, while chaos is quantum states and superposition?
I absolutely love that Hinekora is to some extent aware she's in a video game and is irritated that we, the player, aren't playing Path of Exile 2 yet.
Riker Maloney now resembles me a freaking Sizif, carrying some Mountain on his back in the big timeloop. And if right circumstances occur, he might break out of it.
Maybe the three maraketh trials are act 4 and 8 stuff, and the important one was choosing the next chief
really hyped for some affliction wildwood lore
Probably next league is going to add Expansion like Searing and Eater. I would love to see mechanics envolving Chaos and Order. Doing past leagues that supported Chaos like Ultimatum will give you "chaos points" and doing Order leagues will give you "order points".
However... There is nothing referencing to the Affliction, insects or diseases. What the hell is Afflcition?
Could the devastation brought by us during our time in the campaign, freeing the gods letting them lose upon the land they had slumbered on for ions and then killed them, be seen by people of 20 years in the future as a micro scale Cataclysm? Could that be the cataclysm that must happen in the prophecies?
I can't answer any of these questions, not even the ones we have answers too. Brain hurts. Amazing work
Are you still there Noodle?
Are you alright or just on a well deserved hiatus?
Thank you for your amazing content! I'm so in love with your videos!
As a remark, it seems to me that Order and Chaos are cosmic forces, but that the Lightkeeper and the Progenitor are so committed to them that reach a kind of godhood, being the embodiment of those Forces.
The Impulse could be the resulting consequence of their infinite war, because even if they are the embodiment of Order and Chaos, they're actually not the forces they represent, and they're flawed. That's why they inadvertently created the Scourge.
The Scourge could be the result of the Hubris of two powerful beings that got to become gods after eons of commitment to their respective cause.
As a parralel, it reminds me the Gods of Morris in Star Wars, the son and the daughter being the embodiment of the light and dark side of the force.
A wild Sunday appears 😂❤
Why are all these videos in the playlist in reverse order? This is kind of confusing.
qucik question: are the new valdos maps related to shaper? just thought bc his name is also valdo
Could the mountain and crimson telling be corruption, i.e. the new seed of the beast in poe2?
Ok we need a novel or lorebook or something...... Poe lore is fckin complex and interesting... The return of Zana is what I anticipate the most..... Netflix helloo a good story here... :D
Nice theory craft
I don't disagree with the assessment of the scourge being the imbalance, but I do kind of hope it's something else. I don't mind the scourge I just have limited interest in it, likely for similar reasons both order and chaos oppose it (lack of both potential and cohesion. Again, assuming it is the imbalance). Perhaps whatever it is Zana seeks to do in the future is it, I doubt it will be cosmic positive. The emissary once being a father likely has ties to Zana's issues as well. Is what he knows(but doesn't) related to the key in her mind? My thoughts are losing cohesion lol. God this was such a great league, and a great vid!
Here are my guesses of the random ideas. I do have to ask first, though, how... mathematically inclined the story writers of PoE are. Specifically, their knowledge of physics. The words 'impulse' and 'moment' have _very_ defined (and different) meanings from the wider language in this context, and the deliberate discussion of a fulcrum lends itself to this context.
Anyway:
The warrior seeking to become a goddess might refer to the events of Act 9 in PoE1. Kira is a warrior, and while she may not be seeking godhood, just being a chieftain might be important. More importantly, rivers of sand and sins of the parents seems to me _very_ reminiscent of Shakari.
The spider sitting atop a throne of artifice might be the Kalguuran king. The Kalguurans use artifice more than most (their rune magic), and he is exerting his influence 'across the world' and 'across the sea'. Or, possibly, this is in the reverse direction... someone on Wraeclast is 'exporting' the Corruption to Kalguur.
For some reason, the encircled princes immediately made me think of the Breachlords., and they would be very likely to laugh as they die, if It That Fled is any indication.
The Volcano might refer to Kaom, but it could also refer to the Redblades, as don't they live in a caldera? Further, the earlier vision of the masked one (Riker) having to save his family before the mountaintop is stained scarlet, or something, might refer to a volcano erupting.
Just some ideas.
Doryiani is trialmaster he SAYS in dialog
What if the 'forces' of Order and Chaos are in fact GGG, while the Lightkeeper and the Progenitor are the servants of said forces.
Order could be the story already set by GGG and Chaos could be the leagues themselves, new things added each iteration of the game.
Oh that's fun!
the masked one, the hooded one... I think it's about something in poe 2. Not about raiker at all...
*just redeemed Sunday Cam during POE Theory video 420,069 points!*
an hour.. aight, let me get the popcorn
I will just drop like and watch it little later ^_^
the forger is the titan in my opinion
chaos is the space in which order moves forward
36:18 "I was... never a Mother... Doryani is missing..." - could she be implying that Doryani was the father of her children in the future past she was dreaming about?
Please ma'am, may I have some more?