Tuning The First 3 Way System of a Customer and His Impressions - ZAPCO, DLS, HELIX, Audible Physics
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- Опубликовано: 16 ноя 2020
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I just turned 15 a week ago I finally put together a system under 2,000$ (been saving for a year) I plan to make a custom amp rack and a center console but I'm taking my time learning custom fabrication and to future proof my system. I plan to have it done in 8 months.
@Jake Plotts
That's great!
There are lots of excellent Fabrication tutorials and discussions available on the various Online car audio forums, such as Car Audio Junkies and DIY Mobile Audio, as well as heaps of "Build Logs" that might give you some ideas for your vehicle.
Always love watching your videos. Informative and fun. Keep up the good work.
Well detailed, Thanks Peter
Thanx for sharing even a little bit, always come out learning something.
Whoop whoop Bro Adrian, nice one 🔉 🔊 , another informative video on tuning. Peter once again delivers SQ class audio system. I,m coming to have a listen Adrian 🎶.
Thanks boys!!
I for one know what you put into tuning Peter the time it took to do my Orion was mind blowing so I totally understand why you don’t want to give things away, all I can say is people get your system tuned by Peter you will be amazed at the time and effort that Peter puts into his work. And that dodgy tea you drink 🤣 great install Adrian too 👍👍
Люблю Ваши видео! Очень интересно.
mutage1978 English please. 🙏
Good Good Good man
I'd pay for a remote tuning session - and a training session!
Stephen Christie it’ll come when i have time. Please drop an email! 👌🙏
@@pssound9749 is it possible to do for the community step by step online training even if it’s paid I would love
I have miniDSP and do not know how to tune use rew
this is something that really should not be talked about because this is going to be a sore point but here goes anyways.
before taking the journey to start actually learning how to tune your car I highly recommend that those of you that want to partake in this actually go to a show or event that is all about SQ and take your time and listen to some of the sound quality competitors and those that have their systems set up and get yourself a nice Baseline of what you would like to actually accomplish your own vehicle or system.
get the exact same music tracks and formats so that you have a face reference for you here to be able to discern the differences between the two different vehicles and your equipment as well as it is marginally important.
before going all-in I highly suggest that you also try out the different types of drivers that are available for use such as ribbon planar AMG domes Etc. this would also include some of the different types of Subs out there such as sealed ported band past transmission line enclosures and of course free air or in this case if possible and actual open baffle enclosure.
once you learn the characteristics of these drivers and how they image stage and have directional they can or cannot be, then you can really start sinking your teeth into doing the actual tuning and building of your system and spending the big bucks on new installations and placement and therefore setting up your ideal own ideal soundstage in your vehicle.
if you're new to the game I highly suggest you start out where you live first and that would be maybe in your home or in a room in your home that you would like to tune first and therefore we move to the car audio realm and really are going to get serious you realize how simple things such as placement from the food stamps and so forth can really make a big difference in the quality of sound that is reproduced in your car eventually when you're ready to get to that stage.
the only big note of caution I like to get the rest of you is that it's not the cost of your speakers or the cost of your equipment it really is how well it works in your car and that should be the very first thing you should look into before you jump to the tuning stage.
before you jump the gun and start buying esoteric parts and going for the full system tune I highly recommend that you spend the time selecting the right equipment to your car and the right drivers that will work in your vehicle and then realize that if you want to get the most out of them you really do have to work on the installation first and placement before you can start messing around with the DSP settings , EQ time alignment and everything else that goes into a proper canvas for your vehicle for you can really start reaping the benefits of a proper tune to your vehicle.
for young men out there that are just starting getting into the game and realize that sound quality is really important to you, remember you don't need a lot of funds you just need to have a lot of forethought and use the right tools that are available for you that have been actually freely available or have her low cost for quite a long time. One of those things are actually a linux-based PC where they have not only DSP software freely available but also everything else that you need to actually set up your system to get started,
by starting out this way and doing it in this fashion you start to really appreciate the absolute luxuries of modern equipment dsps and of course high-dollar items and why they are absolutely worth the price of admission.
How can you know any of that without trail and error?
Here is some useful info
Step 1) buy a Dayton Audio IMM6, its microphone with its own calibration file to make sure its 100% accurate. Its small, portable, it works off a phone, tablet, PC or whatever, and its *cheap*
Next download AudioTools for Android, from here: dl-android.com/p/index.php?id=audiotool-apk
Now you have a $500 RTA, signal generator, phase, and distortion detecting powerhouse for like $30. Now I recommend playing with some drivers like AMT's , ribbon tweeters and Alpine DD linear type speakers with corrugated suspension, drivers that dont cost a lot for the tech to try and see where their resonance is, where they shine, where their useful bandwidth is, and where your environment has huge reflections, distortion and phase issues (ie massive peaks and nulls in the frequency response. Don't spend a lot on drivers, and *don't* spend a lot on crossover components if going passive, its just not worth it. you get what you pay for, but at the same time, experimenting with 2 or 3 different speaker technologies if they are very affordable can teach you a lot!. refer back to step 1
@@minus3dbintheteens60 if you're here on this channel you probably already done your trial and error already from all the years you've been messing around with audio since you were a teenager.
18:17
Yeah, the problem with some mastering is generally the loudness war causing many modern pop music lose dynamic and sound harsh on flat eq system. They push highs and lows so it sound generally good on limited FM/AM bandwidth and limited freq response sound system.
Yeah, crap recording requires a different tune, but once you have a good "canvas", then u can do anything!
I personally tune my system for balls-to-the-walls listening levels with WAVs of pristine quality. Then my MP3s and lower listening levels just sound a bit dull, but when I flog the #%@# out of it, its ecstasy
perfect timing. I just got a set of the CP's myself and waiting to get them installed so I can upgrade from 2 way to 3 way. would Have been good to hear a few samples of the system playing
Peter it would have sounded like a phone recording anyway! 😃
Sorry, we were tight on time, lucky to record this much for this one.
@@pssound9749 where did those pods come from?
Peter they used to be supplied by Audible Physics.
@@pssound9749 used to be... ah well. I was already planning welding up my own set of pods or making a bullet style bolt on enclosure from layered rings. I'm not sure i have the energy to go full a pillar build again lol.
I see you have the front left TW and Woofer set to 0.73 and 0.74 respectively...Do you delay these slightly to give yoursefl room to tweek and try out things later? Instead of starting from the furthest speaker at 0 delay??
Excellent video btw. Many thanks.
Excellent Peter, as always. Have you thought about running a couple of paid workshops for tuning? Maybe 6 people at a time from your office. Could do a introduction and then a more advanced one.
If this car won last year, why change it?
A full training program was introduced on Patreon many months ago, it’s definitely in the pipeline.
Unfortunately before anyone can be trained for tuning, the basics of acoustics, speaker design & installation have to be covered too, so it’s not a simple 1-2day job.
This car won his class one of the previous years, but it was 2 way with lots of sacrifices and extremely crazy amount of EQ work to make it technically correct for the judging requirements. It’s always better to have an install where less EQ work is needed.
18:00 this has been an argument for a long time. Should you have different settings are different kinds of music.?
my answer from the very beginning has been yes and I've always pointed out to have different music as master and how the production engineer or the sound engineer sides to set up the sound stage for the recording.
unlike the days of old or you had a few mixing houses in a few record labels and they basically had the same mixing mastering idea of what the final and output would be since her mastering for usually a record and then making sure that that wore in the actual cutting process, these days there's so many digital formats other ways to deliver music the end-user that the mixing and mastering process and Sonic signature can be different for every record label.
even inside the same labels you have musicians that also have a distinct way they like their sound , I often find myself often in different moods as well as in the morning I like a very warm sound and usually in the evening or afternoon I like a sharp sound or more forward.
I Love A system that is able to image and do everything just right. but depending on my mood, sometimes I just like the drop the knob and have a nice back massage.
When my both midbass play togother 250hz frequency have about 3db more than other frequency in the midbass region crossover 80 to 500hz frequency in midbass,should i lower 250hz frequency a bit on both side to have flat frequency
Thanks for sharing! I'm following a really similar process but I'm struggling with the car battery that doesn't last more than a couple of hours (it goes into protection mode). Is there a tool I can use to keep the battery charged that wouldn't bias the quality/power of the system?
Ivan Difrancesco i have a CTEK MX25 as a power supply.
Hi peter. Always happy when you post a video! On the subject of tuning, I'm hoping you'll give your insight and opinion on tuning for the competition arena? Was it in 2019 when one competitor won in his class with more points than anyone had ever achieved before? I read that his install wasn't really anything that special but he took his class. It turns out he used a software program to tune his car. I dont know how much "hands on" he applied to the actual tuning of the car but it almost sounded as if it is easy as running the program and allowing the computer to apply all the filters and tune all the speakers together. As a matter of fact, the company he works for is designing the program for consumer use. It seems like the tuning process has become the equivalent of a human being matched in a game of chess with a computer. Question is, do you suppose the rules of the competition will remain the same, or will things change with the advent of computer tuned cars matching witts with tuners such as yourself tweaking and listening by ear?
Secondly, what is going on with the system in your car? Why have you changed from the helix dsp to the zapco? More channels or sound related?
Sorry for the long post, but I have an inquiring mind🤔. Are you planning to go to Austria in April? Thanks for another excellent video.
Colby Dolby hi, Euro Finals is always planned, but i’m not sure what happens with this covid madness. 😖
Yes, tuning is definitely more accessible nowadays with great measuring techniques and one day there should definitely be an algorithm that can run it and save lots of time.
The thing is you can’t fix everything by tuning! Installation is way more important as in more optimal speaker locations and applications.
Colby Dolby i’ve always had a sweet spot for Zapco gear. I started on a user level, never got disappointed, then became part of the business too. I sell & use both brands, pretty much the only thing i use now. HDSP-V is special or at least i can make systems sound special with them!
Software is still a headache for many reasons, but i’ve learnt to work & live with it. Helix software is a smoother experience for most people, but it also has it’s own corkiness. I tend to look/hear beyond that though, i’m rather interested in what sound comes out of it and so far HDSP-V still wins even over the Brax DSP to me. 👌
@@pssound9749
Peter, with the Zapco HDSP-Z8/Z16 V, is there a noticeable difference in SQ when playing a music file using the built-in HD Player interface versus playing that same file on a portable DAP that is connected via digital (or analog) inputs to the DSP?
bb foto we use Fiio DAPs and they are solid reference, HD player in HDSP V is just as good. We noticed difference in Steve’s Golf though compared to his Joying HU with digital output. It was good, but previous options are better!
Also, the HD BT module is superior, i don’t feel the need for the coax wired option anymore! 🔊🔊🎶🎶
@@pssound9749 on a side note about the joying head units, i had to run my coax into a digital to digital converter because my dsp did not have coaxial option only optical, however, the new joying head units are now android vs 10 and do have optical out.just an fyi for anyone considering an android hu installation that requires optical out.
What is he using in between the iPad and DSP-Z8IVII? Is he going into the Aux or the toslink input ?
Yesterday I just installed the Topping D10s DAC while using its toslink output. Wow 🤩 it’s definitely a lot better then going from my iPhone or my iPad to AUX input on DSP.
It did sound good with the aux, but with the topping D10s I’m a happy man. I almost bought the fiio M11 PRO.
myboy051 we use the inbuilt BT streaming.
Thanks for your videos. it is really inspirational. I maneaged to get a dsp for my hatchback honda jazz. it is rockford DSR1. I have a question regarding the tuning process. My pioneer stereo has these two options loudness and sound retriever. Is it enabled along with the dsp tuning or keep everything off? I don't have access to hi-end tuning facilities around me. I am using a dayton audio mic iMM-6 for android and ios. i am learning things from your videos. Thanks for the contents. Really informative. Thanks.
Hi,
Keep everything off on HU. The DSP is your tool for adjusting everything.
Join the RTA in Cars group on Fb, you’ll learn more there. 👍
@@pssound9749 thanks for the reply. I will start over again. :D
@@pssound9749 Hey Peter, I have another question on RTA. You know, i am using Octave RTA on my iphone. It has weight options like A, C and Flat. What is will be the right option to use when correcting the curve?
Great stuff Peter. Quick query, is a integrated DSP+Amplifier powerful enough to beef up audio or a standalone DSP and standalone Amplifier will do better job? That is with front components speakers and rear speakers with 10inch sub woofer. Currently looking at my set up..
All of these 1 box solutions are powerful enough. If you want mega concert level and bass shaking the whole car, then you just need an additional sub amp if the DSP amp supports RCA output to it.
Have a look at the BMW daily SQ video i shared last October in 2020.
@@pssound9749 thx mate. Just viewed your bmw e92 coupe set up awesome audio! I The music follows where you stood up . Currently my one box solution doesn’t produce this effect, not sure if its tuning or other. Using Bewith 1080 DSP/Amp currently.
hello peter! where would you put speakers in a VW Transporter T5? i was thinking the dash would be best?. thank you for all of these videos.
Are u the one that asked about 3way speakers in a T5 on Fb today?
@@pssound9749 no i am not
QuadFeed then it was just a coincidence. 😃
Midbass is low for 2way in T5, so you want a mid/wideband at dash height.
Hello. I have a pioneer prs80 in my car and am attempting to use REW (Room eq) software. I currently connect my iPhone via lightning to usb and the sound quality is A+. I want to use the auto eq feature with REW and run a measurement sweep. I can’t use the usb on my computer, the radio doesn’t recognize it as an audio device.
Should I use AUX or Bluetooth on my computer for the measurement? Or can I do the sweep from my iPhone somehow? Or is there a way to get my computer to “look“ like an iPhone to my car stereo? So that I can run the sweep through USB on my computer.
I have been trying to find the answer to this for some time. Everyone uses REW and everyone uses the prs80 and iPhone and I don’t understand how to connect it to tune. I have a mini dsp 8x12 zapco amp at your recommendation morel elite 3 way. Any help is much appreciated. Best way to tune iPhone?
Andrew Oertel check the first tuning video in the playlists and watch it carefully. Also, check out the description there for links.
Hi Peter. Do you always use graphic equalizers or sometimes use parametric ones? Which one do you prefer and why? Thanks!
Jesus Martin it’s mentioned in all the tuning videos, highly emphasised, please watch them properly! 👌
@@pssound9749 Do people even watch the videos before asking questions? You've made it quite clear what your preference is and why.
@@89grand it’s too boring for some people to sit for 20-30mins and gain some knowledge.
Hi Peter,
Where do you put the microphone? And, is it same location when measuring left and right set of drivers?
He isn't going to tell you those details, and he explains why. I'll say that you would measure both sides from the listening position, and ideally take an average from a good 5 or 6 locations around the listening area. Dirac Live takes a number of measurement locations, but all are from the drivers seat. Assuming a single seat setup, that is the location that matters. Unless you have a center channel, you can't get great from both front seats.
A 2 inch... woww
Hello. I'm from Russia. take a video please. how you set up the music scene. if possible in details. thanks in advance.
Sergey Kovatev i explained at the end of the video what services i can offer beyond what’s shared in these tuning videos.
Hey Peter, do you take these measurements with a fixed or moving mic?
Never fixed.
What measuring equipment and software are you using?
UMIK-1 + REW. Check out the whole Tuning playlist. 👌
hi . is this your daily job or second job ;) ??
It is full time now since 2019, but was part time since 2016.
I am a new comer and have no idea on REW and miniDSP and want to go active
How to use the above if there is a course will be more than glad to pay
How to do eq fir subs etc etc time allotment
Anand Shah check description and find the tuning playlist. Watch all of them first and check description in them too.
There are several good tutorials on RUclips for setting up and using REW. Lots of tuning tutorials and discussions are also available on the various Online car audio forums, such as Car Audio Junkies and DIY Mobile Audio.
Also check out *Erin's Audio Corner* RUclips channel and website. He is member *ErinH* on the car audio forums, and you can learn heaps from his extensive Build Logs & Tuning discussions.
You can also check with Mark Eldridge (a former World Champion IASCA competitor) and owner of *Mobile Soundstage Engineering* in Oklahoma, USA. He used to offer hands-on training and classes, but those have unfortunately been limited due to COVID-19. :-(
Which Microphone you are using?
somesh yadav umik-1
Please list the equipment
Jason Crandell
Zapco DSP Z8-IV II
Zapco ST-6X SQ
Zapco ST-1350XMii
DLS Iridium1
Audible Physics CP2
Audible Physics RAM6A
Helix K12
To next tuning video show also phase response
м when you have speakers in time and phase, you get perfect sum with LR24 if the EQ job is done well.
Check the 1st tuning video and description where Nick @Apicella also shows it well in his video. 👌
@@pssound9749 sure, just wanted to see it from graphs.
Is a Zapco DSP V Z16 worth it? 4V preouts, for real? lol. seriously, worth it or not?
@Minus3dBInTheTeens
Simply having higher preamp output voltages is NOT a guaranteed golden ticket to better SQ.
It still comes down to the actual QUALITY and design of the preamp circuitry...at any given output level.
Higher preamp output voltages can easily present MORE noise and distortion to a system. All preamp circuits are not created equal, irrespective of their output voltage.
In addition, *most* car audio amplifiers are designed with input stages that are optimized for roughly ~4v of peak input (obviously there are exceptions). The 4V figure wasn't chosen at random. There is a reason...
Simply due to the limitation of vehicles having a fixed 12v power supply, it is difficult to design an extremely high-quality/low-noise preamp circuit that outputs more than ~5v max at this point in time. It can be done, but there will be tradeoffs, either in quality or extreme costs.
If cars all used a 24V DC system, then it would be easy to design & build a very clean high-quality preamp circuit that could supply 8V+ with no compromises.
In addition, 95% of SQ installs will place the DSP unit in very close proximity to the amplifiers, so the RCA interconnect runs between the two should be extremely short, providing very little opportunity for them to pick up radiated/inducted noise...which is why higher voltage preamp outputs (4v instead of 2v) were initially implemented in car audio products, and are not common in home audio products.
AFAIK, the general consensus by most competitors and users is that if you can get past the software & usability quirks of the Zapco HDSP-Z8/Z16 V processors, then you will be rewarded with exceptional SQ.
In different vehicles, I'm running 3 different processors: the Helix DSP Pro MK II, the Helix DSP Ultra, and the miniDSP C-DSP 8x12 v2 DL. They each sound slightly different.
The newer Helix units with the ACO functionality are incredibly versatile and feature-rich.
But so far, in terms of SQ, I have been most impressed with the miniDSP 8x12 with Dirac Live.
If the new Zapco HDSP V didn't have its known issues, and also included Dirac Live, I don't think it could be beat and that's what I would run in all of my vehicles!
YMMV
bb foto thanks for your help and time you take to answer others’ questions that i have less and less time for! 🙏
As you wrote above, 4V is more than plenty! Most people can not even set up gain structure properly and they may only run on 0.5-1V output voltage most of the time!
Also, those who want to fight this game of “more the better”, then get a fancy line driver! Zapco also sells 9.5v rms, 14v peak line driver, but as it was mentioned above, it’s not gonna give you better sound quality!
No, obviously the point of having a higher output voltage is to lower the gains on your amp, to get a lower noise floor, which increases sound quality!
I have amps that have a minimum input range of 6v, 8v, even 12vrms. I also have amps that only go down to 4v or 2vrms, and to lower noise on those I add resistance to their inputs.
There isnt really an excuse for not having a high output level, you have to drive circuitry like opamps with 15v+ anyway. The whole 12v argument I dont think is valid, a linear or smps dc-dc converter costs nothing, especially for such small currents.
I was looking at the HELIX DSP PRO MK2, but, and for life of me I cant wrap my brain around why, but 99.99% of DSPs have DACs in them (obviously,) but dont have the functionality to play files off a USB drive. The Zapco V Z 16 is the only device that has that functionality that I know of, bypassing unnecessary ADCs and additional devices.
Another feature that I cant believe is missing of these multiple thousand dollar DSPs is CMRR inputs and outputs! Again, its about lowering noise.
And yeah, I could buy line drivers, but I have 4 way fronts, plus rear fill, plus a parcel shelf subwoofer, plus subs in the boot, 16 channels so far! The Rockford line drivers are only 2 channel, and are over $200 each! The Rockford 3Sixty.3 is not a bad looking DSP, but again, no USB file playback support. It does have BT playback, but that's obviously useless.
Yeah for sure these DSPs are all going to sound different, and I am definitely the sort of person who would hear the difference. But at the same time, functionality and cost matter.
For $3k, I feel Zapco could have at least scatter a few opamps in the V Z16 to balance each channel and have enough current from the opamps psu to power decent level outputs.
The miniDSP stuff doesnt blow me away, but I have not owned their products. I live in Tasmania where essentially nothing is available. But they have the exact same issues, low voltage, unbalanced outputs, with no codec decoder. And the most important thing I want, which I dont feel is too much to ask, is some type of DAC controller that has the ability to decode and play music files.
So if you guys know of a product to satisfy my needs, and price isnt really an issue, please let me know. I want 12 - 16 channels, 31 band PEQ, 8v pre outs + and balanced CMRR, also the ability to decode and play FLAC, WAV and DSDs would be a much appreciated bonus. Cheers
Minus3dBInTheTeens yes, you’re not the only one dreaming about having EVERYTHING in one product! It’s the same with cars 🚗. There’s not a single car that would do everything and tick all the boxes. You just have to go with the one that has the least compromise for your personal requirements!
I’d advise to get a DAP, far better and interface and has the option to connect it digitally to a DSP and you get as good file transfer quality as possible.
Also, if you want all your gains all the way down with mega high signal going to the amps, then just focus on mid+tweeters. You don’t notice issue on S/N with higher gain levels on midbass and subs. I don’t have issue with higher gains with Zapco Z-series amps on any of my speakers and they are very revealing!
I'm absolutely not trying to be difficult, the Zapco V V16 has been on my wishlist for a while because of the controller and USB playback functionality. I was just asking, if you thought that the 4v line outputs were good enough?
I have 2 headunits installed in my car ATM, I use an Eclipse CD7200 copper chassis dead head with 8v preouts. This headunit was my wet dream before the Eclipse website was taken down and I lost the ability to make files and upload them to the unit, in 0.5dB steps of gain and infinite resolution EQ adjustments (E-Iserv).
I also use a Pioneer P99RS. I like that it plays WAV off USB, and that is has quad pre outs, but going from the Eclipse to the Pioneer, a hell of a lot of my gain is lostdue to the low voltage 5v pre outs. And it has a single 31 band EQ for all channels, which obviously sucks. But also, I dont go much on the sound of it with all of the DSP defeated.. The sound of the Eclipse to me is far, far superior.
Anyway, ultimately, I wanted to know, is the Zapco worth the three grand, or is something like the HELIX DSP PRO MK2 a better buy at half the price, considering I loose native playback?? Or is there another product that you could suggest that I might not know about?
As I said, that Zapco, although expensive, at least it can play my files native without unnecessary ADC/DAC conversions etc. I dont know of another DSP with this basic functionality, which blows my mind. Even the Rockford 3sixty.3, it can decode songs over BT, but no USB playback!, wtf?! And the Alpine PXA-H800, you'd think that with the 15 year old RUX controller and AI net worked out they'd have it figured out for sure 🤦♂️
Yeah I could also run a Tablet or something, and run USB to coax or Toslink into the DSP, and I guess I could live with that, but the DSP should still have an external pre-amp controller at a minimum! It really should allow you full control to fully tune all of the audio settings on the fly imo..
This is 2021!!
I know I'm difficult, nothing is good enough lol. This stuff just seems so obvious that its frustrating to me.
You can play any type of music but if its a
Flat frequency
Jose Torres flat definitely sucks.
Why? When you can hear natural sound but high frequencies
Jose Torres i think we have a bit of any issue here due to language barrier. I’m not sure i can follow what you are trying to say.
I said flat response suck and it’s even explained in the video why you need linear response under 200Hz.
Oh you know , I have same car😉
Christian Nicolle haha, almost! 😃 This is a 2 door hatchback!
Set up a venue and teach several people at once. Charge per head. I’m thinking you’d clean up.
SIMON CRABB yes, part of the plan, just a bit difficult at these times atm, plus people overseas need help over the internet. 👌