The KTM 500 EXC-F has a cush hub!
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- Опубликовано: 13 июл 2024
- Do I run a Cush-drive hub on my 2019 KTM 500 EXC-F? Yes and no...
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I'd read about the cush-hub-clutch on forums but never really believed it, until I did some digging. Seems this exists in all 500 EXC/EXC-F's since the model was released in 2012. (The earlier 530 didn't have it.) And, it looks like the 350 EXC-F has the same clutch. So there you go!
FYI Keith. Unless you invited me to chat through telegram. I think you have a Bug
@@bromers2971 spammers…. thanks hopefully I’ve blocked them and removed them all now.
Yea got same msg...seems someone has a telegram ac in your name and with your profile pic...@keith might be worth doing a short vid to let subscribers know it's not you and to ignore...👍
Curious if my 13’ 450xc-w has this in the clutch? Hmm
I did over 70,000k before I put a cush drive on my 5 hundy no problems. I did find it helped though when lugging. Not a must have but since I got a good deal on some Haan wheels after visiting the factory I thought why not. I've had to replace the clutch rubbers as they wear and get noisy when worn. Learn to shift smooth. :) 143,000k and still a untouched gearbox.
How many engine rebuilds and what interval do your change oil? That's amazing for a dirtbike
I'm guessing 1 rebuild at most for the top end. No bottom end rebuilds
Hi Keith, thank you for this educational video.
Fourstroke engines produce large pulses of power with each combustion stroke. These pulses are transmitted through every component between the crankshaft and the road, and as a resullt each component that has clearance (clutch friction plates to basket, clutch driven plates to hub, transmission gears, sprockets and chain) are subject to this cyclic "hammering".
The cush drive rear hub was designed to add a compressible component into this drive train to absorb and smooth out these pulses in an effort to extend their life. (A bit like the belt drive does in older Hi-Fi turntables)
KTM decided to add this compressible component as close to the source of the vibration by fitting it in the clutch hub, thereby protecting all the 'downstream' parts between the engine and the rear wheel from these pulses.
I have a 2012 EXC350 with 300 hours on it and have only needed to replace the rubbers in the hub when replacing clutch plates.
considering that guy from NZ put over 100,000k on a ktm500 without mods other than bags lights etc I'd say it's pretty bulletproof in stock trim
Just watched you install cush hub wheels ~4 months later!
Once again you have delivered an awesome post regarding issues that the average ride thinks about on a daily basis. Keep it up Keith ya bloody legend!!!!
Hey Keith, thanks for all of your interesting info. An area you didn’t cover on the cush drive is about the comfort to the rider, I just fitted one to my 22 500exc and rode with a mate without one on his 500 and I can guarantee after swapping back and forth on the bikes it is absolutely a big difference to the vibration/pulse at the seat a bars as well as no chain slap, changes the riding experience totally.
I'd be interested to know what cushdrive hub you used? Thanks.
I'm considering a cush for my 501 for that very reason. Only thing i don't like about my bike is the vibes in the seat/pegs.
Warp9 rear cush hub wheel, BRP red rubber bar mount and Renazco seat have reduced vibe on my 500 as much as possible. Makes every surface more bearable. edit: and balance those wheels!
I made the same decision. Thought I needed one, made this clutch basket discovery, decided to save the thousand bucks :)
I've learned something new, thank you.
Even on pavement, a good set of knobby tires gives a little protection to the drivetrain because of they have less ground contact and flex. I do not run a cush hub on my 500 but try to replace those bushings every few thousand miles as needed. they are easy to check if you pull your clutch cover and look for play between the hub and basket. Secondly, if you are easy on the clutch and not popping wheelies on the pavement you should be ok. In summary do your maintenance and take it easy on the street.
I put 11,000 very hard miles on a 2003 crf450x. No cush hub ,Wfo every chance I got. I did put a new clutch in it at 10,000. I don't know what people do to their bike because I beat mine and it begged for more.
The Cush drive cushions!!! It doesn't "absorb" power or prevent spinning. The Cush drive absorbs momentary peak loads or shocks. The main beneficiary is the chain and sprockets. The only reason dirt bikes don't have them is to save weight and short chain life is acceptable in the world of mud, dust, and long suspension travel.
Another contribution to the “cush” are the knobs on the tyres that flex as loaded.
100% Agree with your findings Keith keep the thousand bucks and spend it on your next trip 👍🏻
The one thing you should be aware of is those rubber dampers need to be replace more often than you think. Because of the heat from the engine and oil they become hard and shrink. This causes excessive play to the point that the transmission will rattle a lot under load.
Indeed. On my 500s/501 the sweet spot was every 100 hours. They hold probably much longer on a 350.
I replaced OEM clutch on my 2020 KTM 500 with a Rekluse auto. 2 of the OEM dampeners were broken in half but still in place effectively doing there job. The Rekluse rubbers are apparently hardier but are a real pain when reassembling the clutch.
I think you're spot on.
It may be more advantageous in taming the sudden accells and decells.
All the rest of the drivetrain stays under constant load.
You should be able to ride more predictably and harder.
Thanks for an informative video!🇸🇪
Thanks for sharing. Didn't know KTM had a cush hub in the clutch? I have SMPro wheels with cush hub. Now i have even more cush-ier drive. Double the kinder to everything that's moving the bike forward.
Amazing! You're right Keith. I've had similar concerns and am happy to know this. We'll done, I will sleep well tonight 😅
Thanks for sharing and taking the time to pull the clutch apart.
I actually bought a used hub for the vid.... anyone need a KTM/Husky clutch hub? 😉
I'm doing a Canada to Mexico dirt ride on my 23' KTM500exc-f in Aug. 2024. I knew about the clutch basket rubbers but just in case we do a bunch of road I had a Haan cush drive hub/wheel made up. It will only be used when road miles happen.
I run a HAAN cush hub and it’s nothing short of a game changer for smooth shifts, plus the clutch cush is known to break down in the oil and block the oil lines.
Break down in the oil? maybe if you're using zombie blood for oil I suppose.
so you removed the clutch ones?
@@kovrcek no I don’t remove them, but I replaced them regularly, and every 50ish hours and I always used high quality oil, some people might think it’s not a issue until they blow up their first engine when in the middle of nowhere.
A rear hub cush requires a compromise on these bikes, either the cush-side bearing is exposed or the bearing needs to be thin to allow for a seal to fit, both lead to premature failure. There's just no room for decent solution that works with thin, spoked hubs. (Supermoto) Rear cush-hubs out there tend to having the bearing exposed, with the expectation that additional care is taken, obviously that doesn't work in dirt(ier) scenarios.
Big downside for the clutch-cush though is that the rubbers need to be replaced often and tend to spew fragments into the oil/filter.
I always appreciate your informative videos. And agree the clutch "Cush drive" could be a big beneficial factor. But... What about wear on the countershaft splines? I think the rear hub Cush drive would be of great help counter sprocket spline wear. Anyway, Keep up the great videos and Thanks!
Good video and an intriguing subject matter.
I contacted KTM in Germany regarding this 'cush-clutch'. This is their quote, "We can advise you that rubber dampers are built into the clutch basket to soften the engagement of the gears. However, we cannot comment on the fitment of non-standard or aftermarket parts because they have not been tested by us."
Aha, don’t forget the KTM bike is probably half the weight of your other bike so the Cush drive setup should be quite adequate
good find, that explains why I don't feel anything bad while on the tarmac :)
I wonder the same thing for years with the excs but with this type of cush clutch its got to be doing the same thing (nearly 🤔)doing long transport kms while cruising along would do bugger all damage, but if u had motard wheels flogging it around tarmac all day I could see the need for a cush wheel, good videos Keith.
The clutch can start getting noisy (more than the already noisy KTM clutch) when the rubbers start getting old and worn. They have a recommended replacement interval that is sooner than most would expect.
Makes sence. 175 hours my clutch is making a little noise.....thought It was in my head. Will be replacing those every 100 hours or so.
kinda interesting, who would've knew. Cheers 4 sharing sir.
Good info thanks
The video I’ve waiting for. Awsome
Anything for my subscribers 😉.
I knew about this, and for the same reasons as you have held on on a cush hub. However, the doubt always stayed in my mind, and the thought of a cush hub keeps returning. One reason to think that “we” might be right is that the 690, which has a cush hub, does not have the rubber dumpers in the clutch. I say this from looking at the parts diagrams, so I might be wrong. And I’ve only checked the 690. It’d be interesting to check more models with a cush drive for the absence of clutch dampeners
Good point man
Makes sense 👍
The good thing is that in contrast to most riders, you did some research to back up your statements. There’s no question about the benefits of a Cush drive as they are in all trail/adv bikes but as you say, none of the rest have this clutch system(I’ll stand corrected on that ).
It’s also possible that the traction control in the 500 lessens drive line shock and having a quick shifter in the 690 may also assist in this regard.
Your right
My 1953 Norton has a rubber damped clutch just like my 500, been around for years evidently
Wow, that's a good design.
Rear cush still beneficial anyway. Agree that it depends on use though. Wish my 500 XC-W (plated) had a rear cush drive and NO stupid clutch dampers though.
good vid: for those who are concerned about 'snap ' power and wear - have you looked at inexpensive throttle tamer tubes?? they seem a great way to remove the initial surge
Good job keify
Splendid
I dont comment on YT vids very often, but your 100% correct. I have a KX500 and XR650R, and tomorrow maybe a '23 500 EXC-F, the point is, I didnt think the KX500 had a Cush Hub anywhere... been through it many times, until the rivets holding the back of the clutch basket failed and the gear seperated from the clutch basket.. allowing these rubber bumper cush bits to fall out!! Im sure the XR650R has 4 cush hubs it's so heavy, but none on the wheel is all. In the end, whereever you put it it helps, but you can feel like the motor is snappier by not putting it in the clutch which spins much faster than the wheel.. but the wheels need to be as light as possible for many reasons.. Curious if the MX bikes have the rubber in the clutch.. keep in mind, my KX500 does. I personalyl think it is there on the wheel to silence the chain and chain "pulse". Carry on!
I used to do mostly off road on a ktm 625 sxc , 2005 non cush drive and unfortunately broke the Hub whilst riding on road one day. Installed a cush drive after that .
By not running a Cush on hard pack and road you are missing out how nice and smooth you can make the bike, smoother pulling out of corners and when lugging, and being able to carry a higher gear out of corners or coasting
Not that I’m telling you to buy the Cush drive wheels , but it would be great to here your option on the difference between both 👍
Enlightening Keith, didn't realise, I fitted a cush drive hub for longevity reasons and it makes drive chains n sprockets last longer, the final drive take up is not as instant with cush drive but I'm no racer, off road is hard on transmissions but the 500 is built to take it, the cush drive must ease the forces
Which Cush Drive did you install? I've been looking for a Cush drive that I can just add to the existing OEM wheel.
Id say they went that way to move weight away from the extremity of the swingarm. Better suspension response and keeps the weight centred in the bike.
David Knight removes his Cush hub on his 500exc and replaces it for a 450 sxf he says it adds more direct clutch feel, but then he is top level world enduro champ, I would much prefer this myself and add Cush hubs instead bigger rubbers and easy accessible better clutch bite with less moving parts inside the engine
There's a guy in NZ that makes a cush drive rear sprocket called a Mox sprocket. It looks promising for smaller bikes. It apparently reduces vibration through the seat.
It's heavy.
I looked into that, but I didn't like it because it ties me to a particular sprocket brand - theirs. Also couldn't find many reviews, so decided the $$ was too much for an unknown thing. Maybe it's OK, I really don't know.
@@keithjob its really good and you can just buy the outer ring to change sizes or replace worn out teeth.They also have rebuild kits.
No need for Cush drive, reason is the cushioned clutch basket on 500 as Keith mentioned and full knobbys provide enough flex/slip to cushion load.
If running a road tyre or 20 dirt/80 road tyre you would be more inclined to run Cush drive hub. Also if you are smacking heavy through gears on the road regularly get a cush drive period! PJ
Hi Keith, thank You for sharing! on my 2007 525 XC i mounted an old Lc4 cush, for in northen Italy proper offroad sometimes needs highway, and the bike is fine 👍
Curious to know if the same engine on my 2019 Husky FE501 has this?
The clutch plates themselves are a fusible link and distrubute load.
The clutch is the main drive yes
Great video. First time I hear about the Cush drive. Good dirt and enduro bikes do not need it. Keep it simple.
He explained why they put that DDS system in there. Older bikes got their sprocket shaft splines rounded because of the lack of cushioning.
Ktm has two kush drives , the Second one is your knobbly tyres , the knobs act as a dampening device because they are made of rubber 👍🏻
Especially at lower psi
It is a cush hub but they need to be changed every 10,000km. Cause they break down easily due to their size and if not maintained they dont do their job properly anymore. Also they are a pain to get to.
I would also add that highway use is fine without a cushdrive because you are at a constant throttle. It is only the snappy on-off nature of riding twisties that needs one. Also knobby tyres have a lot more flex than a road tyre, so some snatchy loads get absorbed there also.
The wear comes from every stroke of the piston even if your at constant speed. Knobbies takes away a lot of stress.
I am fairly certain that the standard 690 countershaft sprocket fits the 500 and it also has a shock absorbing bonded rubber system built into it. It is not a solid cog like the enduro bikes have.
I initially thought so too, that rubber is just there to quiet down chain noise. It is just rubber bonded to the sides of a solid one piece counter shaft sprocket. It would seem to come in contact with the chain side plates as they go around the sprocket making things quieter. For noise emissions I would guess.
@@paulandratis3426 Get on? I have learned something new today!
@@jamesfairmind2247 ... and stock front sprocket on a 500 is the same rubber type as on a 690. I know because I had to cut it off to install a Dirt Tricks dome washer.
The cushion is a damper to take the peak of torsional vibration.
Small counter shaft sprockets are a source, for example.
For all the myths about the 500 needing a cush drive, Keith, in your research did you come across and evidence of damage due to lack of cush drive?
You can get rubbers from recluse which someone, i think Taco Moto, said were better.
Yes, I can attest to the fact that the Rekluse rubber dampers are a bit larger and more robust than the OEM rubber dampers
Interesting to see but I wonder if this design was done for clutch feel and performance.
Technically all the mechanical stresses still have to transmit through the front sproket interface + countershaft/ gearset before it is dampened by these clutch cush pillows 🤔🤔 meaning that part of the system is at risk. Wonder if people who Supermoto these things in the 2012+ year models have noticed less countershaft wear (assuming it is the countershaft sprocket splines that are the first point of failure from hard core road use).
Good job pointing that one out 👍🏼
tYes, the spines wear much faster pre dds.. because stress goes to the path of least resistance.. so the dds takes the bigger hits as the motor to ground provides those stresses, I would agree that it is not as robust as the cush hub however as I said above my countershaft splines are in prefect shape at over 500 hours on my bike and many have gone further with mainly off road riding and have similar results. If your interest is to supermoto the bike I would highly suggest a cush hub as the bikes not designed for that purpose. kks cush hubs rims only 500$ us.. no big deal for a 15k bike.. cheers :)
The clutch is between crank and input to the transmission and dampens the power pulses going into it. The trans, countershaft and front sprocket are all downstream of the clutch pillows.
Thought I’d better check my Cush rubbers on clutch today 16780klms
They are badly worn and some even broken.
Oops!
Don't all big bore dirt bikes have rubbers in the back of the clutch basket? I know the CRF450's do.
Would say it has more to do with noise than harmonic dampening.. look at all the bikes over the ages.. do they all fail cause they have no fancy dampener in or on them.. NO they fail through neglect and down right rough treatment..
The only concerning thing I have seen when googling similar was premature wear on the input or output shaft splines when ridden on the road regularly. But is that resule from those hooligans doing wheelies and riding hard on roads or those who cruise to go adventuring.
Is the clutch hub also present in the 2012-2015 KTM 500?
Yes, according to the parts diagrams.
No need for additional dampners.
Is that clucth cush drive for all year? Thinking of 2012-2016 one
A quick look at the parts diagram for 2012 & 2016 models shows the same clutch hub as my 2019 model. So yes!
@@keithjob Thank you that's great to hear!!!
all bikes need a cushion in the drive linkage at some point, its sensible to have it in the rear hub as the rubbers are consumables and access is easy, KTMs solution is ridiculous when you think where they put it, not just for accessing them but engine heat and oil penetration, stupid idea. quick swap outs. NO. . .
Ktm does this to minimize unsprung weight. My xr650r also has this from 2000
If your not a pro level rider , a cush hub doesnt hurt you or your offroad riding at all.
It's on the wrong end of the power train! Yes KTM screwed up!
Thanks for your input Keith you are on the right track for sure.. to not confuse the situation the current year ktm's have a cush drive yes, called a DDS system, its not a traditional "hub" that most understand, honda 450L had the same thing but the RL is now a hub as Honda wanted to be less maintenance I'm guessing and KTM only cares about "ready to race". As explained its to support the drivetrain from the shocks from the ground to the drive train for example acceleration, road contact, chain vibration etc.. I change my damper's ( 6 ) approximately 100hrs every winter and at 530hrs 26000km my 2017 500 is doing just fine. To all the haters the countershaft splines in previous generations bikes would round prematurely and this is one reason ktm added the DDS system.. if my splines looks like they do now when I do the bottom end at about 100k km's( Aaron Steinmann ruclips.net/video/7EfeK4OXlbA/видео.html @25min ) I wouldn't change it.. and yes Aaron had a cush hub but I'm not on as much pavement yet another thing Kieth is correct about cuch drives not as important off road.. but as Kieth has explained DDS adds to the perpetual motion of the motor a bonus in keeping the bike running at lower speeds but robs less hp as the weight is negligible.. lots of info but thanks Kieth, much appreciated..
Thanks for the info man. I have a 2012 and I was thinking about the cush hub since I was driving the EXC to the mountain and that involved quite a lot of tarmac. As I understand, the bike has no problem whatsoever unless you start riding supermoto style, backing the rear with engine breaking and so on. That would definitely stress the drivetrain. It's a relief that this DDS system is there. Didn't know about that. Is it easy to inspect/replace the rubber parts?
Tons of dirt bikes, more than just the ilk of KTM, use rubber dampers in the clutch. It’s nothing new.
I don't doubt it, I just never knew! KTM have had it in their EXC lineup for 10 years, so I'm sure everyone else does too. Thanks for watching!