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It's funny I knew an Italian Catholic Priest who spoke Portuguese, English, Romanian, Latin, Italian, Spanish, and French and he said his favorite language and what he thought was the best language was English because you say what you mean and you mean what you say. English doesn't really require cultural context as much.
english was once called the "lingua pura" as it began spreading and the art called "science" was growing. It was considered the ideal language for science because of its ability to so precisely describe.
In this show it definitely shows that it requires cultural context. John clearly didn't mean that if you touched the bird you needed to die, but that's what he said and that's what Uejiro did.
it wasn't language. it was culture. He didn't understand the absolute adherance to command they had. He didn't understand that since he said "touch - death" then as the lord of the village then that was the law.
@@wjm8353 Earlier in the episode Blackthorn said whoever takes down the rotting pheasant shall be killed (i.e. shinu) while not appreciating the customs and law of Japan. The Japanese take the word of their lord in absolutes. We see an example of this earlier when Fujiko's husband and baby is dead because her husband spoke out of turn and promised to his lord that he would end his lineage for his impudence. This bird also had additional significance because it was a gift from Lord Toranaga to Blackthorn. It all leads into this scene where Blackthorn is upset because he killed the gardener because of his careless words. It's a turning point later on in the series because it shows how Blackthorn comes around understand his role and the culture of Japan. I have to say - the writers are doing a phenomenal job with the script. Everything just comes together brilliantly.
@@wjm8353its not, in any place people who have high status most of time doing that, disobey mean death,, Blackthorn just a common sailor, he not use to be "high status".
No joke, sometimes cosmo jarvis really looked like connor in some instances, Like a more buffer connor lmao. His deeper voice and how he talked reminded me a little of connor too
As I recall, in the book it was explained that they debated whether Anjin was a "real" samurai or not (and therefore whether his orders had to be followed or not). They decided that he was, indeed, a real samurai and thus whoever touched the bird had to die. The gardener understood this before he took it down and was glad to play a part in cementing Anjin's status (I might be remembering that part wrong). They presented this information to Anjin believing he would be pleased.
It didn't matter, their true lord Toranaga gave them a duty they need to perform, not following Anjins wishes is the same as defying Toranaga. The only time they can disobey Anjin is if his command does not align with Toranaga's wishes.
On the one hand its really foolish of him to say something like that after what he saw throughout his time in japan...tho still, i feel like they just used the excuse of that bird (a very convenient one at that) to protect the toranaga spy by making a sacrificial lamb out of the gardener, who actually agreed himself to do this as a service to his actual lord.
The scene has been filmed differently in the show but according to the book, there was a whole discussion about what to do with the rotting meat. Fujiko spoke with her household and then the village chief and eventually went to toranaga, who gave a final ruling on the matter and ueji volunteered as the person who must go and throw away the meat in contravention of his master's orders as he was getting old, lived alone and has no family and was already experiencing pain from disease etc. Toranaga also very gently and helpfully explained all of this to blackthorne through Mariko, rather than dismissing the whole matter as shown in the series. Blackthorne still felt distraught till the earthquake happened and he was brought back to focusing on the present but the book handled the whole thing better from the Japanese perspective. Would have been nice if they had shown that
@vedymin1 that's a very interesting perspective , i never would've guessed that this could be the case. That's why at the end of that episode it shows you Yabushige talking to the real spy and the spy talking about the dead Ujeiro as if he was the actual spy , who's fortunately dead now. i gotta say the writers of this show don't ever miss , not even the tiniest details ..
Faced with such constant, arbitrary and life-threatening cataclysms, it's no wonder they latch to whatever inch of purpose they can find, anything that can make them feel their death had meaning, even if it's drawn from a rigidity in honor, code and language that is inconsecuential on its own.
When I was younger and saw the original show I had similar reaction. To die for such a trivial reason... As I get older I understand it more but also one thing fascinates me. In England 1600s you could get killed for stealing, adultery or poaching. And he is suprised that the gardener gets executed for basically stealing/poaching. I think that the problem is that both TV shows are trying to show it as something totally incomprehensible for John even though he should get the idea fairly quickly.
I was actually on the side of the Japanese. Even though I understood that he was hyperbolic in his language, he failed to realize that such dramatic language might not be understood as hyperbolic.
I don't understand why John should complain on the killing of peasant? At that time in England and Europe, Emperors, Kings, Bishops, Dukes, killed peasants as they wish.
No, not at this time. In Tsarist Russia, certainly; by this period in England specifically, a man had to be found guilty of a crime by a jury of his own peers. It's known worldwide today as English Common Law. An easy misunderstanding since they don't teach much factual history in former communist bloc countries.
@@vinicius6170 I though he was intentionally hang that bird to rot because that one scene Buntaro got disturbed by flies and John didn't threw it right away at that time
The rotting was intentional, it is known among hunters as Pheasanting. The word pheasanting comes from pheasant. The too-fresh flesh of this game bird is a little dry but, when the bird is left to rest in its feathers for a short week, this flesh softens and takes on a delectable scent and aroma. This modification that can be made to all feathered and furred game is severely opposed by hygienists today. As for fans who appreciate the slightly strong flavor and aroma of game, they are far from unanimous on the cooking time. It is a bit like aging steak or meat.
Cultural issues aside, the show (probably unavoidably) doesn’t do a very good job of representing how Blackthorne’s attempts to communicate in Japanese come across. “Kinzuru, hai?” is clunky and unnatural while still intelligible and could have better been translated as “I forbid, yes”, but, tentative enunciation aside, “Sawattara shinu” is a grammatically perfect, if blunt, sentence. It isn’t fragmentary or broken at all. LITERALLY it does mean “If touch, die” but that’s just how Japanese sentences are structured - subjects and objects are usually implicit. Hearing it, you would immediately interpret it as “If (you) touch (it), (you will) die.” Probably can’t be helped, both for grammatical reasons and the fact the show was written entirely in English by American monoglots, but the whole thing is littered with these sort of small mismatches between what is actually said in Japanese and what is presented to the viewer in the subtitles.
Yeah I noticed that. I have very mediocre Japanese, but even I can tell it comes across like someone thinking that "sawattaru shinu" WOULD be clunky in Japanese, but it isn't. An actually English speaker learning Japanese with almost no knowledge of the language would not understand this, and try to say something like "dare tori sawaru shinu" stringing words together so as to be as precise and direct as English is. It is rude to say, but Japanese people, most of the time, basically speak like cave people to each other in casual conversation. It isn't "You should go home!" it is just "kaerou!", it isn't "Do you have any children?" it is "kodomo ga iru?" or even "kodomo?" .
pheasant is dry meat, if you let it 'rot' for a week it turns moist, obviously its not done in modern world but i imagine it was quite normal back then, obviously wasnt normal in japan
@@georgefenrirbitadze4757 🤣🤣The rotting was intentional, it is known among hunters as Pheasanting. The word pheasanting comes from pheasant. The too-fresh flesh of this game bird is a little dry but, when the bird is left to rest in its feathers for a short week, this flesh softens and takes on a delectable scent and aroma. This modification that can be made to all feathered and furred game is severely opposed by hygienists today. As for fans who appreciate the slightly strong flavor and aroma of game, they are far from unanimous on the cooking time. It is a bit like aging steak or meat.
That was a typical practice of the time. You’d kill a pheasant and let it hang for a week to soften the flesh. It didn’t make him stupid, everyone in Europe was doing the same thing. But it definitely makes for a cultural contrast which is the point. It’s emphasizing that these people from different cultures are doing things the other group finds incomprehensible because they have no context for them.
In this particular situation, Blackthorn showed true stupidity and ignorance of his actions! He set the conditions himself and now someone he had endeared himself with had paid the price!!
The rotting bird situation told us about the huge cultural differences between Europe and Japan. It spoke to Blackthorne's sincere desire to connect and share what he is about with the people around him. It's a measure of Blackthorne's assimilation into the society he finds himself living in that he has a basic understanding of expressing what is off limits but even with death all around him, not considering that his commands to his household brings the inherent threat of death as a matter of course. And, of course, even as he's learned the importance of bathing and hygiene, he fails to make the connection that a rotting animal would be hugely upsetting, even though he knows it's going to stink. The book also touches on Blackthorne wanting a taste of his own food having gone without it for so long.
I think he's well aware of how strict and rigid the Japanese upper societies behave, but he just didn't expect the peasants to also be so serious in taking his order that he delivered very casually, almost jokingly even.
It's part of the English tradition going back a long way. Casual language used in extreme circumstances, but also extreme language for trivial matters.
by now he knows people can be killed for a lot less and he knows he has power now as hatamoto, really shouldn’t of put so much importance onto the stinky bird
Best Reaction to this! - ruclips.net/video/UgwecTiKX7E/видео.html
The Best Scene in this Series - ruclips.net/video/4tu9xnyVhDU/видео.html&ab_channel=NukemDukem
"If touch... die!"
-Gardener: "I guess I'll just touch it then..."
Cop suicide sort of
It's funny I knew an Italian Catholic Priest who spoke Portuguese, English, Romanian, Latin, Italian, Spanish, and French and he said his favorite language and what he thought was the best language was English because you say what you mean and you mean what you say. English doesn't really require cultural context as much.
english was once called the "lingua pura" as it began spreading and the art called "science" was growing. It was considered the ideal language for science because of its ability to so precisely describe.
In this show it definitely shows that it requires cultural context. John clearly didn't mean that if you touched the bird you needed to die, but that's what he said and that's what Uejiro did.
German/Deutsch also has this quality.
should have learned Dutch. english speakers lie their arses off
@EdoKwin But German is terrible sounding so it's out of the equation.
That’s why language is important 😂
it wasn't language. it was culture. He didn't understand the absolute adherance to command they had. He didn't understand that since he said "touch - death" then as the lord of the village then that was the law.
@@TheWorldsprayer can you elaborate? Cause I don’t understand
@@wjm8353 Earlier in the episode Blackthorn said whoever takes down the rotting pheasant shall be killed (i.e. shinu) while not appreciating the customs and law of Japan. The Japanese take the word of their lord in absolutes. We see an example of this earlier when Fujiko's husband and baby is dead because her husband spoke out of turn and promised to his lord that he would end his lineage for his impudence. This bird also had additional significance because it was a gift from Lord Toranaga to Blackthorn. It all leads into this scene where Blackthorn is upset because he killed the gardener because of his careless words. It's a turning point later on in the series because it shows how Blackthorn comes around understand his role and the culture of Japan.
I have to say - the writers are doing a phenomenal job with the script. Everything just comes together brilliantly.
damn japanese really is confusing@@JK-ok7lm
@@wjm8353its not, in any place people who have high status most of time doing that, disobey mean death,,
Blackthorn just a common sailor, he not use to be "high status".
"If touch die"
Fuji: okay 👌
Probably the worst group of people throughout history to say that to jokingly, lol.
damn, cdawg's move to japan is really getting to him
Lmao
😅
No joke, sometimes cosmo jarvis really looked like connor in some instances, Like a more buffer connor lmao. His deeper voice and how he talked reminded me a little of connor too
Im glad i wasnt the only one who sees him as his buff up version, i cant unsee it
As I recall, in the book it was explained that they debated whether Anjin was a "real" samurai or not (and therefore whether his orders had to be followed or not). They decided that he was, indeed, a real samurai and thus whoever touched the bird had to die. The gardener understood this before he took it down and was glad to play a part in cementing Anjin's status (I might be remembering that part wrong). They presented this information to Anjin believing he would be pleased.
It didn't matter, their true lord Toranaga gave them a duty they need to perform, not following Anjins wishes is the same as defying Toranaga. The only time they can disobey Anjin is if his command does not align with Toranaga's wishes.
@@haroldcruz8550 I'm just saying what's in the book. Grab a Ouija board and take it up with James Clavell. 🤷♂
On the one hand its really foolish of him to say something like that after what he saw throughout his time in japan...tho still, i feel like they just used the excuse of that bird (a very convenient one at that) to protect the toranaga spy by making a sacrificial lamb out of the gardener, who actually agreed himself to do this as a service to his actual lord.
The scene has been filmed differently in the show but according to the book, there was a whole discussion about what to do with the rotting meat. Fujiko spoke with her household and then the village chief and eventually went to toranaga, who gave a final ruling on the matter and ueji volunteered as the person who must go and throw away the meat in contravention of his master's orders as he was getting old, lived alone and has no family and was already experiencing pain from disease etc. Toranaga also very gently and helpfully explained all of this to blackthorne through Mariko, rather than dismissing the whole matter as shown in the series. Blackthorne still felt distraught till the earthquake happened and he was brought back to focusing on the present but the book handled the whole thing better from the Japanese perspective. Would have been nice if they had shown that
@@NC-hu3timaybe he'll do it afterwards as a sign of respect for Blackthorne now that he's seen the lengths he'd go to.
@vedymin1 that's a very interesting perspective , i never would've guessed that this could be the case.
That's why at the end of that episode it shows you Yabushige talking to the real spy and the spy talking about the dead Ujeiro as if he was the actual spy , who's fortunately dead now.
i gotta say the writers of this show don't ever miss , not even the tiniest details ..
Faced with such constant, arbitrary and life-threatening cataclysms, it's no wonder they latch to whatever inch of purpose they can find, anything that can make them feel their death had meaning, even if it's drawn from a rigidity in honor, code and language that is inconsecuential on its own.
Agree. The series nailed this aspect of their culture. I didn't expect a lesson in existentialism but it's a pleasant surprise.
This basically sums up medieval Japanese culture.
@@JohnnyRico118 No it doesn't. You can't sum up a culture in a three-line paragraph, especially one so grossly condescending.
who, humanity?
@@ysgramornorris2452 Well yeah, but this is RUclips, so the commenters don't understand this series, let alone the context for it
Classic dry British sarcasm went completely over rigid Japanese drone. LOL
bri'ish man doing bri'ish things in nippon
what a masterpiece
Instructions unclear. Gardener died 😂
2:43
Praise the man who invented Google translate
Blackthorne: If touch die 💀⚰️
Fuji: Sure 💁♀️💅
When I was younger and saw the original show I had similar reaction. To die for such a trivial reason...
As I get older I understand it more but also one thing fascinates me.
In England 1600s you could get killed for stealing, adultery or poaching.
And he is suprised that the gardener gets executed for basically stealing/poaching.
I think that the problem is that both TV shows are trying to show it as something totally incomprehensible for John even though he should get the idea fairly quickly.
*If it ain't the consequence of my own action*
I was actually on the side of the Japanese. Even though I understood that he was hyperbolic in his language, he failed to realize that such dramatic language might not be understood as hyperbolic.
You should probably get over the idea that you have to pick a side among fictional characters
Why would they have a langsuge barrier? Don't any of these people see the subtitles at the bottom?
So he just forgot about that bird after a while? I thought he was just dry aging or something similar
I don't understand why John should complain on the killing of peasant? At that time in England and Europe, Emperors, Kings, Bishops, Dukes, killed peasants as they wish.
No, not at this time. In Tsarist Russia, certainly; by this period in England specifically, a man had to be found guilty of a crime by a jury of his own peers. It's known worldwide today as English Common Law. An easy misunderstanding since they don't teach much factual history in former communist bloc countries.
Fuji best nun
What would he gonna do with that bird ?
He was going to use it to make English food but he forgot to pick up the bird and in the end it rotted.
@@vinicius6170 Thankyou clarify for me, I was curious why would he need that rotten bird
@@vinicius6170 I though he was intentionally hang that bird to rot because that one scene Buntaro got disturbed by flies
and John didn't threw it right away at that time
The rotting was intentional, it is known among hunters as Pheasanting. The word pheasanting comes from pheasant. The too-fresh flesh of this game bird is a little dry but, when the bird is left to rest in its feathers for a short week, this flesh softens and takes on a delectable scent and aroma. This modification that can be made to all feathered and furred game is severely opposed by hygienists today. As for fans who appreciate the slightly strong flavor and aroma of game, they are far from unanimous on the cooking time. It is a bit like aging steak or meat.
@@gianlucafantini1332Thanks for the clarification. Dry-aging meat is vastly different from this though in terms of health risks.
Cultural issues aside, the show (probably unavoidably) doesn’t do a very good job of representing how Blackthorne’s attempts to communicate in Japanese come across. “Kinzuru, hai?” is clunky and unnatural while still intelligible and could have better been translated as “I forbid, yes”, but, tentative enunciation aside, “Sawattara shinu” is a grammatically perfect, if blunt, sentence. It isn’t fragmentary or broken at all. LITERALLY it does mean “If touch, die” but that’s just how Japanese sentences are structured - subjects and objects are usually implicit. Hearing it, you would immediately interpret it as “If (you) touch (it), (you will) die.” Probably can’t be helped, both for grammatical reasons and the fact the show was written entirely in English by American monoglots, but the whole thing is littered with these sort of small mismatches between what is actually said in Japanese and what is presented to the viewer in the subtitles.
Yeah I noticed that. I have very mediocre Japanese, but even I can tell it comes across like someone thinking that "sawattaru shinu" WOULD be clunky in Japanese, but it isn't.
An actually English speaker learning Japanese with almost no knowledge of the language would not understand this, and try to say something like "dare tori sawaru shinu" stringing words together so as to be as precise and direct as English is.
It is rude to say, but Japanese people, most of the time, basically speak like cave people to each other in casual conversation. It isn't "You should go home!" it is just "kaerou!", it isn't "Do you have any children?" it is "kodomo ga iru?" or even "kodomo?" .
The one time he formed a perfectly grammatically correct sentence in 触ったら死ぬ, he practically killed someone.
Can people explain for what purpose he hang that bird?
Taste.
Dry aging without an dry ager.😊
pheasant is dry meat, if you let it 'rot' for a week it turns moist, obviously its not done in modern world but i imagine it was quite normal back then, obviously wasnt normal in japan
Your average British cuisine
@@georgefenrirbitadze4757 🤣🤣The rotting was intentional, it is known among hunters as Pheasanting. The word pheasanting comes from pheasant. The too-fresh flesh of this game bird is a little dry but, when the bird is left to rest in its feathers for a short week, this flesh softens and takes on a delectable scent and aroma. This modification that can be made to all feathered and furred game is severely opposed by hygienists today. As for fans who appreciate the slightly strong flavor and aroma of game, they are far from unanimous on the cooking time. It is a bit like aging steak or meat.
触ったら死ぬ
John lost me with his stupid rotting bird , he's suppose to be a pretty clever guy but then there's the rotting bird, i'm confused
That was a typical practice of the time. You’d kill a pheasant and let it hang for a week to soften the flesh. It didn’t make him stupid, everyone in Europe was doing the same thing. But it definitely makes for a cultural contrast which is the point. It’s emphasizing that these people from different cultures are doing things the other group finds incomprehensible because they have no context for them.
In this particular situation, Blackthorn showed true stupidity and ignorance of his actions!
He set the conditions himself and now someone he had endeared himself with had paid the price!!
The rotting bird situation told us about the huge cultural differences between Europe and Japan. It spoke to Blackthorne's sincere desire to connect and share what he is about with the people around him. It's a measure of Blackthorne's assimilation into the society he finds himself living in that he has a basic understanding of expressing what is off limits but even with death all around him, not considering that his commands to his household brings the inherent threat of death as a matter of course. And, of course, even as he's learned the importance of bathing and hygiene, he fails to make the connection that a rotting animal would be hugely upsetting, even though he knows it's going to stink. The book also touches on Blackthorne wanting a taste of his own food having gone without it for so long.
I think he's well aware of how strict and rigid the Japanese upper societies behave, but he just didn't expect the peasants to also be so serious in taking his order that he delivered very casually, almost jokingly even.
It's part of the English tradition going back a long way. Casual language used in extreme circumstances, but also extreme language for trivial matters.
by now he knows people can be killed for a lot less and he knows he has power now as hatamoto, really shouldn’t of put so much importance onto the stinky bird