Love to see more engineering in acoustic guitars. FYI, you can use these numbers to calculate a thickness for the top panel, such that the resonant frequency comes out the same, even though each tree is different. This helps to produce guitars with a more consistent tone. Details in Trevor Gore's book, Contemporary Acoustic Guitar.
This is maybe the first video I've viewed where I could actually hear the resonance of the wood, well done. I had never considered the feedback potential of a responsive guitar either. I've built three guitars with torrefied Sitka, my experience with it: It has an amazing free-plate resonance, judged by the ear alone. Its very resonate and "crunchy" sounding when working with it, even when rubbing the fingers over a raw top. And it doesn't sand like spruce. There is a different kind of saw dust, I call it "flocculent" (insert joke here). The sanded particles are fine and fluffy, like tiny fluffy snowflakes, or the like the lint you pull from the screen in the clothes dryer. All the torrefied wood I've used is indeed very light and stiff. Glue beads up on torrefied wood (tops and brace wood) so you have to brush the glue on (PVA glue), with some vigor, and dwell time, until it fully wets the wood surface. It does however make a very strong glue joint. The wood is also brittle so extra care must be used with chisel or knife, with a keen eye to the grain direction, and good thick padding under a braced, radiused top while working it on the bench. And the guitars I've been told are very lively, responsive and loud too. I have Juliano's book (solid Five Stars) and have started putting together my "tone lab". I have not yet built a guitar with FFT analysis, only by ear and judgement. As far as analysis being a crutch, I would rather have a race car engine that was tuned and balanced, built from metals that, when manufactured, were analyzed, and characterized and considered, than one that wasn't. Same with guitars. Thank you both for a well-produced video, and a great book.
Magic Squirter? 🤔🤣🤣 Great tone woods Tom! In Canada I bought a Adirondack top that is baked for $30 I look up Carpathian spruce tops and they are starting at $130 . I was really surprised with the quality of the baked Adirondack for $30. It is stiff and has a really good sustain. I'm building a Jumbo so I had to glue in a strip of Sitka to make the top big enough . It's going to be interesting what it sounds like when it's done.
@@TomSandsGuitarsyou can do it home with your own oven. The results of my tests were indistinguishable from wood that I was sending out for processing, in terms of looks, smell, and material property changes. More work to be done…
Tom, love your videos, but a caution from an old carpenter who knows from sad experience...Western Red Cedar is a notorious source of allergens. I used to love that aroma and now I can't be near it. Admittedly I worked with it a ton, shingling roofs and siding walls, but I developed a scary asthmatic response, as do nearly 70% of red cedar mill workers. Now, I would love to experiment with it for tops but will be steering well clear. Use that respirator if you are sanding;)
Interesting thing about soundboards is that you come across guitars with at best A grade soundboards that sound incredible. Especially true with bigger body guitars like Dreadnoughts. I wonder if the pursuit of the ultimate tight grained stiff soundboard isn't always the best way to go.
Amazing sounding tops. I am all for the analysis of materials for the sake of comparative outcome with completed guitars. The question I would put out to the community is if there's a point where this "concierge" service becomes more of a crutch than a tool in the crafting of fine instruments? Are we short changing the next generation of builders by doing half the work up front for them?The only analogy I can think of in my world of custom homes is that I don't let new carpenters/ laborers use the pneumatic nail guns. Not because I worry for their safety, but if you build a house but don't know how to use a hammer, I question the quality of the work. I source my tops from another supplier providing a similar service, but I know what I'm looking for because I did the work first. What do you think Tom? Would live to hear your thoughts on that.
Very well worded question. At the end of the day, you can have all the data you want but it doesn’t guarantee a great guitar, you still have to apply the information in the correct way. Similarly, you give wagyu beef to a fry cook at McDonald’s and to a Michelin star chef, which one are you going to enjoy more…
idk if I have been duped or what but Adirondack spruce tends to be what I gravitate towards, especially with Mahogany. that chimey thing with the mids and sustain are just so good.
Another great video-- Thanks! Suggestion for another video: I'm wondering what you think about the use of English tonewoods. Rosie Heydenrych, owner/luthier of Turnstone Guitar Company, is doing an entire series of guitars with these woods (e.g. English Walnut, Bog Oak, Yew, English Apple) -- do you think these are competitive with more common, but increasingly rarer tonewoods?
Rosie is a pioneer as far as I’m concerned, she’s done so much for awareness into sustainable home grown alternatives. We’ve actually made videos about each of the woods your reference and are developing our own line of UK timber guitars (don’t tell anyone yet…) There are so many great woods out there, it’s about how you work with them that matters most.
Hi, Great vid. Quick question re the WRC - 30 years old. I this pre - being resawn as tops or after being sawn to top sets? I have few older sets of WRC that I obtained from Timberline back in 2008 which are ridiculously straight and tight grained and shimmer with cross sinking, and must be getting on for at least 18-20 years sawn. What would you prefer to use, torrified or naturally aged/kept 20 years or so in your stash?
@@TomSandsGuitars Its been sat doing its magic for this time, as I dont get to build that often with a day job and am strictly, as a result, destined to remain an amateur saw dust maker... left it way to late in life to build enough to get close to being a proper builder, but it is still a great thing to build a few instruments that seem to sound OK... Not yet built with WRC, so what would you say it pairs best with when thinking about an 'slightly enlarged OM' if wanting more oaf an all rounder as oppose to a finger style focus... apologies if this is not the right place for these questions, but as an amateur, I am a cheeky enough to ask for free advice ;-) (I ask as both WRC instruments I have owned (a Tom Mates 'Blind Blake' model (1988) and a more recent Lowden 022 are paired with Mahogany - sound great, but interested in where it might go...)
The Carpathian spruce is from lower altitude than the "Alpine" spruce and so enjoyed longer vegetation period resulting in more annual growth, reason for which the rings are wider. In my experience this type of top wood produces a better sound. I think I told about a friend of mine in search for tone which reached the conclusion that his older guitar with unusual wide rings top was better than all the other prettier ones.
Everyone should be aware that cedar has been shown to be a carcinogen. So much so that school woodworking shops have stopped using it. That lovely smell that you refer to is the problematic chemicals in the cedar being released. To be on the safe side you should use as much vacuum as you have to capture these from the air and wear breathing protection as well. If you are building one guitar it may not be that important but if you are working wood on a regular basic you should take this into account and use proper protection.
@@TomSandsGuitars love your show... when we put the tone wood to our ear we hear what you are trying to portray ...l am thinking a under saddle pickup taped to the plate would not attenuate the ringing. I love this comparative content you bring.
Great content as usual, Tom. Thank you for having me. 🙂
My pleasure, thank you for bringing your work to our community in such an accessible way.
Love to see more engineering in acoustic guitars.
FYI, you can use these numbers to calculate a thickness for the top panel, such that the resonant frequency comes out the same, even though each tree is different. This helps to produce guitars with a more consistent tone. Details in Trevor Gore's book, Contemporary Acoustic Guitar.
Yes! Those books are fantastic too
This is maybe the first video I've viewed where I could actually hear the resonance of the wood, well done. I had never considered the feedback potential of a responsive guitar either.
I've built three guitars with torrefied Sitka, my experience with it:
It has an amazing free-plate resonance, judged by the ear alone. Its very resonate and "crunchy" sounding when working with it, even when rubbing the fingers over a raw top. And it doesn't sand like spruce. There is a different kind of saw dust, I call it "flocculent" (insert joke here). The sanded particles are fine and fluffy, like tiny fluffy snowflakes, or the like the lint you pull from the screen in the clothes dryer. All the torrefied wood I've used is indeed very light and stiff.
Glue beads up on torrefied wood (tops and brace wood) so you have to brush the glue on (PVA glue), with some vigor, and dwell time, until it fully wets the wood surface. It does however make a very strong glue joint. The wood is also brittle so extra care must be used with chisel or knife, with a keen eye to the grain direction, and good thick padding under a braced, radiused top while working it on the bench. And the guitars I've been told are very lively, responsive and loud too.
I have Juliano's book (solid Five Stars) and have started putting together my "tone lab". I have not yet built a guitar with FFT analysis, only by ear and judgement. As far as analysis being a crutch, I would rather have a race car engine that was tuned and balanced, built from metals that, when manufactured, were analyzed, and characterized and considered, than one that wasn't. Same with guitars.
Thank you both for a well-produced video, and a great book.
Magic Squirter? 🤔🤣🤣 Great tone woods Tom! In Canada I bought a Adirondack top that is baked for $30 I look up Carpathian spruce tops and they are starting at $130 . I was really surprised with the quality of the baked Adirondack for $30. It is stiff and has a really good sustain. I'm building a Jumbo so I had to glue in a strip of Sitka to make the top big enough . It's going to be interesting what it sounds like when it's done.
How interesting! I expect there’s an art to the torrfication process
@@TomSandsGuitars Definitely. I been trying to find out but it's a Luthier secret I think?
@@TomSandsGuitarsyou can do it home with your own oven. The results of my tests were indistinguishable from wood that I was sending out for processing, in terms of looks, smell, and material property changes. More work to be done…
Tom, love your videos, but a caution from an old carpenter who knows from sad experience...Western Red Cedar is a notorious source of allergens. I used to love that aroma and now I can't be near it. Admittedly I worked with it a ton, shingling roofs and siding walls, but I developed a scary asthmatic response, as do nearly 70% of red cedar mill workers. Now, I would love to experiment with it for tops but will be steering well clear. Use that respirator if you are sanding;)
Thank you John! Sorry you have to deal with that
Interesting thing about soundboards is that you come across guitars with at best A grade soundboards that sound incredible. Especially true with bigger body guitars like Dreadnoughts. I wonder if the pursuit of the ultimate tight grained stiff soundboard isn't always the best way to go.
I think it would have been really neat to be able to see the spec sheets before and after torrification.
Great idea!! I’ll look into it
Amazing sounding tops. I am all for the analysis of materials for the sake of comparative outcome with completed guitars. The question I would put out to the community is if there's a point where this "concierge" service becomes more of a crutch than a tool in the crafting of fine instruments? Are we short changing the next generation of builders by doing half the work up front for them?The only analogy I can think of in my world of custom homes is that I don't let new carpenters/ laborers use the pneumatic nail guns. Not because I worry for their safety, but if you build a house but don't know how to use a hammer, I question the quality of the work. I source my tops from another supplier providing a similar service, but I know what I'm looking for because I did the work first. What do you think Tom? Would live to hear your thoughts on that.
Very well worded question. At the end of the day, you can have all the data you want but it doesn’t guarantee a great guitar, you still have to apply the information in the correct way. Similarly, you give wagyu beef to a fry cook at McDonald’s and to a Michelin star chef, which one are you going to enjoy more…
idk if I have been duped or what but Adirondack spruce tends to be what I gravitate towards, especially with Mahogany. that chimey thing with the mids and sustain are just so good.
If you know what works for you, that’s all that matters.
Would loved to see the torrefied grafed and compared to the other tops. Great show.
That’s a great suggestion
Another great video-- Thanks! Suggestion for another video: I'm wondering what you think about the use of English tonewoods. Rosie Heydenrych, owner/luthier of Turnstone Guitar Company, is doing an entire series of guitars with these woods (e.g. English Walnut, Bog Oak, Yew, English Apple) -- do you think these are competitive with more common, but increasingly rarer tonewoods?
Rosie is a pioneer as far as I’m concerned, she’s done so much for awareness into sustainable home grown alternatives. We’ve actually made videos about each of the woods your reference and are developing our own line of UK timber guitars (don’t tell anyone yet…)
There are so many great woods out there, it’s about how you work with them that matters most.
@@TomSandsGuitars thank you. I’m watching your other videos of these English woods - very informative. Thanks!!
Its all about the data
Sure is!
Hi, Great vid. Quick question re the WRC - 30 years old. I this pre - being resawn as tops or after being sawn to top sets? I have few older sets of WRC that I obtained from Timberline back in 2008 which are ridiculously straight and tight grained and shimmer with cross sinking, and must be getting on for at least 18-20 years sawn. What would you prefer to use, torrified or naturally aged/kept 20 years or so in your stash?
Very good question, not sure but also, not sure what difference it would make after this length of time
@@TomSandsGuitars Its been sat doing its magic for this time, as I dont get to build that often with a day job and am strictly, as a result, destined to remain an amateur saw dust maker... left it way to late in life to build enough to get close to being a proper builder, but it is still a great thing to build a few instruments that seem to sound OK... Not yet built with WRC, so what would you say it pairs best with when thinking about an 'slightly enlarged OM' if wanting more oaf an all rounder as oppose to a finger style focus... apologies if this is not the right place for these questions, but as an amateur, I am a cheeky enough to ask for free advice ;-)
(I ask as both WRC instruments I have owned (a Tom Mates 'Blind Blake' model (1988) and a more recent Lowden 022 are paired with Mahogany - sound great, but interested in where it might go...)
The Carpathian spruce is from lower altitude than the "Alpine" spruce and so enjoyed longer vegetation period resulting in more annual growth, reason for which the rings are wider. In my experience this type of top wood produces a better sound. I think I told about a friend of mine in search for tone which reached the conclusion that his older guitar with unusual wide rings top was better than all the other prettier ones.
I think they use nitrogen gas for baking woods and Taylor guitars torrefy their wood with regular ovens
Hi Tommy can you do a video on Honduran rosewood cheers
Had so many requests, it needs to happen!
Something that's been bugging forever : what's in the magic bottle?
Magic juice
Everyone should be aware that cedar has been shown to be a carcinogen. So much so that school woodworking shops have stopped using it. That lovely smell that you refer to is the problematic chemicals in the cedar being released. To be on the safe side you should use as much vacuum as you have to capture these from the air and wear breathing protection as well. If you are building one guitar it may not be that important but if you are working wood on a regular basic you should take this into account and use proper protection.
the tap is a waste of time...this would have to be produced with the sound of the tapping evident to us the viewers. i am not hearing the sound?
@@dalecostich8794 thanks for your insight Dale, what devise are you listening on?
@@TomSandsGuitars love your show... when we put the tone wood to our ear we hear what you are trying to portray ...l am thinking a under saddle pickup taped to the plate would not attenuate the ringing.
I love this comparative content you bring.