You gotta respect Garret Wang for clearing he air while humanizing Genevieve Bujold. I could imagine a lot of studio execs assuming she couldn't cut it, but she made a very human decision to put her kids first.
@@jasoncasey2527 They have picked her for reasons. Voiceover is done separately, so you cant really judge it from those few raw cuts. Mulgrew would not be heard that much either, rly.
@@jasoncasey2527 Except she was already cast as Janeway. Had she decided to continue in the role, it was hers. Whether supposedly being described as mousy as a seasoned veteran, by her castmates (who were mostly unknown at the time), or not.
I read or watched somewhere that Ethan Phillips was indeed the most cheerful person on the set. They had long shooting days, and even though he had to show up at 3 am for his makeup, he was always trying to keep everyone's spirits up. He said that Tim Russ would get into his Vulcan character so much, that sometimes, Ethan would hide underneath Tuvok's console and say "Tim, you're not a Vulcan - this is a TV show! " haha.
My headcanon maintains that Nick Locarno and Tom Paris are, indeed, the same person. Tom, always fighting with his father, changed his name to join Starfleet- he didn't want to be "The Admiral's Son"- he had the skills to get in on his own. But then, he let his ego get the better of him, and The First Duty happened, and he was kicked out- ALMOST. Before paperwork was finalized, he called in his daddy, who pulled strings and just got him held back a year, with the cavaet that "he loses the name", and Nick Locarno officially ceased to be. Tom Paris continues on and graduates Starfleet Academy- carefully avoiding any of the professors he would've had as Nick... But, Tom and Owen never got over the core issues they had, and Tom gets mixed up in the Maquis as a continuing part of his rebellious/pissing off daddy streak, gets caught, Voyager begins...
If only. Unfortunately, for your head canon to work, his dad would have had to agree to the name change as well. Admiral Paris in the later seasons of Voyager, and head of Project Pathfinder.
@@joelellis7035 I think Jeremy was implying that the name Nick Lorcarno was the fake name Tom Paris took on in order to prove that he could make it on his own. So it was the fake name that got shed, no reason for his father to agree to anything then.
I always felt they should have changed the character's name to Locarno once they casted this actor. It would have fit it perfectly for fans of TNG. Paris and Locarno basically have the same character backstory. Missed opportunity IMO.
We can all agree Voyager is not without its problems but rewatching now, it’s obviously a great show that has aged well and the characters are all a lot more likeable than most of us will remember.
Absolutely not. It's a badly written show with boring characters. It's impossible to enjoy unless you were subjected to hours of it before your frontal lobe developed.
I totally agree, one missed opportunity was the development of the Borg. Voyager introduced some advanced races, the Krenin, the Devore and the awesome Voth, yet the Borg don’t seem interested in assimilating these races. The writers just played it safe, Voyager was TNG lite.
Admiral Owen Paris has a picture of Nicholas Locarno on his desk... Tom and Nicholas are either canonically the same person or Owen Paris doesn't recognise his own son.
A fun casting trivia... Ethan Phillips (Neelix) and Rene Auberjonois (Odo, Deep space nine ) Played in BENSON . Rene Auberjonois and Armin Shimerman (a Ferengi) played in Boston Legal Sometimes actors bring former Colleagues , That's Really Nice ! :-)
I felt for a long time that Tim Paris was really Nick, since the timing between when he was is in Starfleet Academy and the launching of Voyager were just about perfect.
Main difference between Nick Locorno and Tom Paris is experience. Nick was a cadet who got expelled, while Tom had actually BEEN an officer. The difference may be superfical at first, but the difference is essential. Had "Nick" been there instead of Tom, that would have eliminated the need for Harry Kim, who was the fresh of the boat guy and not the "lovable" rouge, with the actual capability of shaping up when it was called for. Sure, you could have made Nick into a Maquis volunteer, who later got captured and all the same as Paris and put in a few scenes of even a few flashbacks to explain his evolution between TNG and Voyager, but i think they made the choice to turn him into Tom Paris instead simply because it allowed them to give him more experience in the field than Nick actually had.
Nick Locarno never existed. He was an alias Tom Paris came up with to go through Starfleet Academy without the baggage of everyone knowing who his dad was. Of course, it didn't go very well for him... At least, that's my headcanon and I'm sticking to it.
Nelix grows on you; when he departed as an Ambassador and Tuvok danced, only a little bit though, for him was endearing to a character that learned to chill his response and to listen more. The Kazon were great antagonist to me, though they do appear one-dimensional in the series; I guess I've read more into their characterization than I should have over the years! I get their background and why they don't like the Trabe. I also understand why they would be distrusting of anyone else and are filled with vengeance and animosity--as Cullah puts it, they had to fight and defend for themselves after generations of forced servitude to the Trabe (sigh!). The lesson, I guess for me, and seeing this in the context of the 1990s, is that willing workers are required to reconcile past grievances--it wasn't the Kazon who blew up the very table that was supposed to begin this reconciliation!
One question I have is about the Klingons. In the original series, Klingons were more human looking. TNG we got Worf and others. In Deep Space Nine, several members of Deep Space Nine went back in time and were aboard The Enterprise. There was a scene in the mess hall that had the original Klingons, and I believe it was Chief O'Brien asked Worf about them. Worf confirmed that they indeed were Klingons, and O'Brien asks what happened? Worf responds that they don't like to talk about it, but never explained it. While I know the writers made a change to their appearance, there was never any backstory to explain the change. Which brings us to Enterprise, which takes place prior to the original series, but the Klingons were the new one, not how the were for the original series, so does that mean that all the Klingons in Enterprise were from the future?
The Locarno/Paris change was simply because they didn't to pay Moore and Shankar royalties for the entire series as they created the character of Locarno. And the pacing of Emissary and Caretaker's openings are almost identical. Action then a 2 person conversation on "earth"/earth.
I think DS9 is actually the best Trek series because of the conflicts and intrigue, especially during the Dominion War. The episode where Sisko agonizes over used a ruse to bring the Romulans into the war is brilliant. We saw a glimpse of this aspect of wrestling with one’s conscience between Riker and Pressman in the TNG episode about the Pegasus. It lends a certain maturity to the story. We did see something of what might have happened with two crews on Voyager in the episode where Tuvok had done a holodeck simulation. It might have been interesting to have the two crews learning to come together over the first season of Voyager.
The one character I felt was underused - unlike in the other Star Trek series was the XO first Officer - Chakotay. As for Neelix, I liked him and he developed over the series. The Maquis did have something that showed they were not Starfleet officers was their pips/insignias. In some ways it might have been good if Caretaker had been a three part episode rather than a double episode, then we could have had the reaction/asking of Janeway and Chakotay becoming one crew etc. But then that's what Fan Fiction does - fills in the missing pieces of the jigsaw and add to the characters backgrounds etc.
Neelix is to Star Trek as Jar Jar Binks is to Star Wars. All throughout Voyager, I was begging for an accidental phaser discharge, or an air lock malfunction. Followed by a Top Gear/Jeremy Clarkson style “oh no, anyway…”
I'm not a fan of Voyager, but I liked Neelix. Not necessarily as a person, but as a character, I found him interesting. And annoying. But in an interesting way. I can understand Bujold's position better now. Yeah, creatively interpreting your word is pretty common, but she made a choice about what she was going to put up with. You can respect that.
I think the concept of the Kazon - as in a near lawless force that hounds Voyager? could have been fantastic had they gone "Year of hell" with the entire show - but they were just never threatening enough :\
Personally, some of the things added later to the Kazon might have made them work better as well. The different sects being very different, culturally, from each other would have made things very interesting. Some as allies, some as enemies, some as neutral...and playing up more with the Trabe earlier to expand the thing with them about being a massive example of why the Prime Directive was necessary. They're much more interesting with the infighting during STO where some of them Join the Delta Alliance from near the beginning.
I understand why they needed to have the marquee crew becoming starfleet crew but it felt rushed to me. Think they should have it slowly happen over the first season rather than the course of 2 episodes
I heard they also tried to get Linda Hamilton for Janeway. That would have been interesting but she declined for the same reasons of having young children.
The Alkazon had to be written out anyway. Voyager was traveling in a straight line in one direction not bouncing around from planet to planet. When traveling in a straight line you will eventually leave the sphere of Alkazon influence. No way could they stay involved unless they chased Voyager to earth. Which makes no sense.
I wanted to write, that he changed his name that no one gives him a bonus because his father is admiral...but in total the result is the same. And that makes completely sense, no matter what Theorie you take.
@@mammutMK2 When he was a salamander occupying all points of spacetime simultaneously, he just went back and forgot his name for a while, don't worry about it
I learned to give premiere episodes a wide berth. Neither the writers nor the actors really know what they're about, and it usually takes the whole first season to tack enough personality onto each character to make them unique and likeable. For the record I am a Neelix fan. 😊
A good example to prove this, is how strong New Worlds started out (and is carrying on). This is at least partially because they already had a season of Discovery to figure all that out, where they sometimes did struggle a bit.
I've heard of several shows actually shooting the 2nd or 3rd episode first for this reason. Give the actors a chance to figure out the characters and then go back and shoot the opening episode.
I love neelix once Kes leaves, but he does really irritate me whilst she's there. Reminds me of my own posessive ex boyfriends lol. I love that in Star Trek Online we can go and visit Neelix and the others too, that really solidified it for me!
In regard to having the Maquis as a separate crew: it would have been nice to slow down their integration into starfleet in the first season, rather than wearing the uniforms at the end of the pilot. It doesn’t need to span a few seasons, just be a little more realistic.
More importantly than more realistic, it would have made for better storytelling. Unfortunately, they wanted to make Voyager as syndication friendly as possible (while having a premise that really wanted something a lot more ongoing arc based)
@@Stephen-Fox I'm not so sure, drawn out intra-ship conflict over a season is partly why myself and many of the people I know dropped SGU so fast. If you have so much to explore on the ship, you forget that there is a whole quadrant outside of the ship that's far more worth exploring.
I always felt that the VOY crews merged way too quickly. Stretching it out over, say, the first season would have been a good compromise between Pillar and Berman. I think in that point, Berman took the wrong message from DS9. The conflict potential between the different groups was part of what made DS9 my favourite Trek in terms of storytelling.
@@kirishima638 There's only a few episodes where it matters...most of Seskas stunts, a few references, and the time where Tuvok had been mind controlled. They didn't even really do anything when getting back in contact with the Federation when they would have learned that the Maquis back home had been wiped out...
Agreed! Of course we all have the benefit of hindsight. But yeah, would have been a small change but had Pillar won the argument I think it would have made for a much richer show.
Neelix was one of my favorite characters on Voyager. Some of my favorite episodes are the ones that showcase the odd couple-esq dynamic between Neelix and Tuvok.
Yes, this! I always liked Neelix and that he was a bundle of nerves and insecurities hiding behind a quirky façade. But I never understood why they let him on the ship after he led the Voyager team into a dangerous situation under false pretenses. I'd never trust his advise on anything after that and would refuse him to come along on the trip. For the rest of the show it worked out pretty great, so I am fine with this.
@@Dominian1 Lots not forget his unauthorized modification to the captain's dining hall (how did security not know that was going on?) Seams there were some things that were just brushed aside and forgotten about for witting convenience that should have had at least something dialogue.
Couldn’t disagree more about Neelix character. His introduction in care taker in my opinion was pivotal to his progress in his development throughout the series. He was the one who would put everything at risk for love.
(I'm sorry, this has turned into a shortish essay. I can get a tad carried away when I'm passionate about something!) I was annoyed by him initially, but his rescuing of Kes "explained him", as it were. From then on, I actually felt sorry for him quite frequently, because except for the few stories which revolved around him, especially the phage one (ugh!), it was like the crew didn't know what to do with him. Janeway, though understanding his usefulness regarding his knowledge of the region they found him in, and more importantly the supplies they could find, along with who they could trade with or needed to avoid, in my opinion gave him the "morale officer" job as a makeweight for the rest of the time - especially when they went past his "home region." At least Kes fitted in well with the Doctor and got turned into a pretty good nursing assistant quite quickly. But you could feel the awkwardness of the writers at times when it came to "what are we going to do with Neelix?" I get that, because I used to write fiction for fun, which got posted online (via a "list". This will date me to anyone old enough to know what one was!), including a few long series of quite in-depth stories which sometimes could run into two or three "episodes" and that arc returning at a later date, often happening out of the blue when I realized that about 10 stories in the past I'd made a one-line observation which suddenly had a part in the latest adventure! I lost count of the times that happened lol! In general, the stories were usually based around 4 main characters and were, in the one particular series, told from the swapping POV of each character in turn. Sometimes, however (edit: due to the individual characters' unique skills), one or two of the characters would have very little to do but I would have to give them as near equal "screen time", as it were, because I didn't want to play favourites. My readers had their own fave characters so I had to write for them all. "My Neelix" actually had the greater knowledge of the enemy - totally grown up independent of Voyager because I didn't start writing this one series until Voyager had been finished for at least 5 years, maybe even 10. Time flies... The POV was actually written from the thoughts of each character, and conversation from their side of the argument. Occasionally another one would get a "guest appearance" (I wrote the stories as if they were films), very occasionally they got the POV "treatment" for an episode or two, but I was having to code-switch every page or three, depending on what was going on. One of the major characters, a particularly stoic individual (no, none of this was actually based on Star Trek. I only made the vague connection fairly recently, about 11 years since I wrote the last story!) ended up as my Neelix. He had plenty to do on a normal day, but some stories I'd have to send him off to do something else, sometimes on his own, because he didn't always fit in with the storyline! As I said, it was only after I stopped writing those series, and I had plenty of time to think about them, that it dawned on me that there was a hint of the "Neelix dilemma" in them. I hadn't started writing until Voyager was well over, so I never considered connecting the two ideas until later on. It made me feel even more compassionately for Neelix, and more considerately towards the writers, because he's a character on a tightrope. A wobble one way and he becomes the most important character in the whole show, whereas Janeway should technically hold that position, and a wobble in the other direction could have him land up as a purely occasional character, only there for comic relief. Under the circumstances, they did a pretty good job with him. And Ethan Hawke was fantastic in the roll! As time has gone on, I do find myself being more attached to him than I thought possible! Again, sorry for the ramble, but tangents and my brain are in cahoots with my inability to write briefly! And all this to say I agree with you!
He betrayed the crew and led them into a dangerous situation under false pretenses. I remember being very confused when they let him come with at the end of the episode. I still love the character for the rest of the show, but that's my nit-pick for the pilot.
Yeah, me too. I think some people can’t get past the goofier elements of the character to find someone who is rebuilding his life after incalculable loss, searching for a family, and terribly afraid of losing it all again, but from that comes a strength and loyalty that makes him quite endearing.
I thought he was OK. I liked 7of 9 but re-watching there was too much emphasis on her and a lot of other characters were tossed aside. For example, I liked Tuvok and Janeways friendship. His character should have been more developed. I liked Kes. Sad to see her go. Would rather have Neelix gone than her.
@@21mushroomcupcakes33 neelix was a very good character in the beginning and probably the most important one. he was the link between the yoager and the delta quadrant. Without him they would have died in a short time. At least that's how it should have been handled. Unfortunately, like just about everything else about the series, it was simply dropped faster than any of us would have liked. I also liked that he pulled the stick out of the crew's ass. anyway that should have been a lot stronger part. in the end other characters did it. He should have shown that the great rules and regulations of the federation will not get you very far and that you have to adapt and act differently to reach your goals and not end up as a victim. You could have made great episodes there. where one would have to justify immoral action, for the greater purpose, etc. Unfortunately, Neelix was forgotten and nothing was done with him. They even took his baby girlfriend and put everything on Seven instead. Was also a good decision but you shouldn't have sacrificed the other characters for it. It would have been better if Neelix left her sooner because he doesn't want to leave his homequadrant and it's also more logical to leave him behind when he has nothing useful to contribute other than another creature that costs food and energy. Then Neelix could have been traded for Seven and she could have done the job Neelix had of guiding Voyager safely through the Beta Quadrant.
Voyager has really been taking off again latelyin content around the interwebs. I feel like people are finally starting to appreciate it more and more. Personally it's become my comfort show at this point.
The source of a lot of Voyager hate is the fact that what it IS and what it was supposed to BE are two very different things. The premise is not supposed to be comfortable; quite the opposite, in fact. That dissonance has led to a lot of resentment from the fanbase, and there's no easy way to square that circle, unfortunately.
It isn’t hate, it is disappointment, wasted potential and missed opportunities, it seems to me that many people are prepared to put up with any level of absurdity.
The worst thing about voyager was all the lost potential. Like what if they had to give up their quaters and bunk up so they could build a torpedo workshop. By the end it should have all all sorts of alien parts bolted on. It seems ever time they had a good idea someone shut them down.
The premise of Voyager is so good; imagine if they had actually had a hard time integrating the starfleet and maquis crews. So much drama and storytelling they could have leveraged. Instead the crews are pretty much just one crew way too quickly.
It's why Ron Moore got out of Star Trek. Berman and paramount executives wanted to play it safe. Moore felt like there should have been more peril and consequences.
8:27 I didn't know this was ever even considered. I've always thought Starfleet and the Maquis should have been separate crews for the first season, working together, but distrusting each other. As the season finale, give them their Beast of Tanagra that finally brings them all together.
@@jatmo6991 In my ideal version, they would not go the whole 75,000 ly as separate crews, just one seasons worth of light years. In the actual show, they went ~300 ly in season 1. Also, I imagine everyone would understand that it's in their best interest to cooperate, but Starfleet and the Maquis do things differently. Imagine having the Learning Curve vibe throughout season 1, but the finale has a bigger threat than cheese bacteria.
Yeah, it feels like that might have been the start of Voyager failing to live up to the concept. Two crews that don't really get along forced to work together to get home? That's a *great* idea, tons of potential for tension. But it's just kind of ignored. The crew of Voyager is Starfleet, and they act like it.
The Maquis were literal terrorists many likely having murdered Starfleet members. The idea that everyone would be totally ok with that ever let alone so quickly was rather distasteful to me at the time.
I just assumed, besides the issue of the Cardassians, the Maquis were mostly Ex-Starfleet and once they were thousands of light years from that situation their differences were negligible.
Gotta say, not in the majority on my opinion of Neelix. Thought from the start he was one of the best characters on Voyager. Basically a good guy but not above looking out for himself first. Probably the closest to a real life person on the show.
literally just started voyager and found out people dont like neelix and was outraged! theres a lot of well balanced nuance in neelix, as much as there are good bits in his personality there are believable and interesting negatives
I agree Neelix was a great character. The only one I didn't really see as anything great was Harry Kim. He was really only there to be Tom's friend or buddy.
Neelix did tend to waffle at times, but it's actually pretty understandable. As the series goes on, you begin to understand that in spite of his cheery demeanor, he had suffered immensely through his life. His family was killed by a weapon of mass destruction. He learned to survive by any means possible. And Neelix didn't stop his bad habits right away. When Voyager was leaving the area of space Neelix knew of, he went to find maps, getting caught up in a scheme to steal warp plasma from Voyager. This was actually something of a redemption for Neelix, as he instead set up a fake deal with a leaking canister of plasma from his ship. He put others before his own desires. It also redefined Neelix's role on the ship. When he comes clean about it all, Captain Janeway has him take the role of an ambassador on their behalf. I honestly feel Neelix is a decent character, but only because he was allowed time to grow. The show had plenty of issues, especially in early seasons. But that's the same for all new shows(except maybe Lower Decks). And honestly you can't go into a pilot episode realistically and expect to develop everyone's character. It was good that they gave us a taste of who these people are and let them grow over time, especially when the story is that you're put in a dire situation and you're trying to keep things from getting worse.
I agree on the part of Nellix's growth. I could not stand him for the majority of the seasons and wished they had killed his character off. But he earned my respect by the latter 3 seasons and I actually even enjoyed those few episodes in those seasons that tended to have him play bigger points in the plot. I credit that to Ethan Phillips' phenomenal acting and good foresight as to how his character should grow while on the show. I actually kind of missed Neelix when he left.
I liked Neelix he was fun and had a big hart glad they gave him a happy ending, would love to see him in lower decks to see how he got on even if its on a view screen chatting to mariner
@@railroad5024 To be fair, he did appear in Endgame. He basically was having a chat with Seven when she had to abruptly hang up and do some work. I hope she called back to tell him what was going on. Otherwise he may have assumed the worst.
@@simonupton-millard I think if Neelix will pop up anywhere, it will be in Prodigy, seeing as the ship can pretty much go to the Delta Quadrant whenever.
Don't agree with lower decks - the comedy was super cringe for me in Season 1 - way over the top Americanized stuff. Season 2 is way more cerebral and I love it :)
Rick Berman AGAIN. If he didn't want conflict on the ship, why have the Maquis on the ship at all? It literally would've taken nothing away from the show to have had all the characters (well, apart from Kes, der scheisskopf and later Seven) be Starfleet from the start. Hell, have it be a training vessel with Janeway as the captain, Chakotay as the lead instructor, the EMH as the EMH still and all the other characters be trainees. You'd have had more conflict and better conflict than what little we actually got on Voyager.
I can understand why Ronald D. Moore decided to lean into all of Voyager's missed opportunities when he left to make Battlestar Galactica. Internal conflict between the surviving factions, crises of leadership, and real consequences for past decisions. DS9 certainly started the ball rolling there, but I think Voyager dropped it.
It was a good idea, but with bad timing. The inner turmoil would have made it to be too close to DS9 and the Series would not have lasted as long. So, they went with the best storyarc for the show at the time. And then it was also a balance between the The Original Series and The Next Generation. It was in itself an experiment between the too show and sometime didn't exactly hit the mark, but the acting was always excellent.With Chakotay being a possible Kirk and Janeway being a possible Picard. Nick Lacarno and Tom Paris are the same person. Someone else proposed this and I like it. He wanted to be in Starfleet but didn't use his given name so that he wouldn't have to be under his Father's shadow. And then used his real name in what led to him being redeemed and finding a place for himself. And in Threshold, (Yes, I have to bring it up.) is where he grew up and became the true Tom Paris: The Man. The Husband. The Father. The real meaning of the title is that he broke his threshhold of being what he was the always rebelious male that didn't want to grow to the Man that embraced everything of his maturity that he realized he needed. I also liked Neelix, he was the person that supplied information if not other things for the ship. Without Neelix, Kes would not have been added to the crew. And he was half of the friendship that helped Paris grow as well. Also, the narrator is being impatient. Babylon 5 introduced each of the different factions and their Ambassadors in separate Episodes.
Me too, in a lot of ways I view him as the John Candy of Planes Trains and Automobiles in the franchise and that really led to him having some beloved touching moments on camera as the series progressed and made him a lot more humanized and relatable to me growing up watching the series. He does deserves a lot lore respect than he gets.
Heard a great theory for Nick vs. Tom: Tom called himself Nick Locarno in the academy not to be compared to Admiral Owen Paris. He dropped it after he got expelled.
The George and Gracie shirt makes me think we could use a video about the animals of Star Trek. Porthos, Livingston, that little dog from The Enemy Within, etc.
You could always say, "primary hull," instead of saucer section. As far as I'm concerned, Tom Paris is Nick Locarno, for all intents and purposes. I always accepted that Locarno was retconned to be Tom Paris. I rewatched all of Voyager last year, and I'm sorry, but Neelix, at least in the earlier seasons, was terrible--as in not a good person. He was possessive of Kes, almost to the point of neurosis, and then he was also abusive to her. He'd play mind games, yell at her, yell his conspiracy theories about what Tom Paris wanted to do to/with her. He was combative at times with the crew. He was a jerk.
I hear a lot that Neelix is a generally hated character in the Star Trek fan community, but I've never really understood why. I was a kid watching the show, and I loved Neelix from the first time I saw him, and my parents enjoyed him as a character, too. I mean, who couldn't love seeing him luxuriate in that bathtub and hear him sing that incredibly silly song? It's a funny scene, and we all really fell for him as a character. Yet somehow he's the Jar-Jar Binks of Star Trek to many fans (another character I enjoy). LOL
He was touted as so diplomatic yet was aggressively annoying to others. And more so not just ignorant of his effect, but wallowing in it refusing to adjust his behavior to fit others' emotional needs. It was a big case of what they showed drastically disagreeing with what the story told us about him.
You left out the fan theory that after being expelled Nic Licarno stole the identity of his Starfleet academy roommate Tom Paris inspired by the fact that they had been told many times how much they resembled each other.
man I wish they had kept the separate crews at least for one or two more episodes, not to add more conflict, but just to make it more sensical, and make these characters feel more well rounded.
To be fair, when I watched Voyager back when I was a kid my mom would sometimes watch with me. Her favourite character was Neelix, and she would go to bat to support him
To be honest i never had a problem with Neelix in "The Caretaker" nor in the rest of the show. He was always a quirky oddball character from the beginning who we get to know a bit more over the course of the show and also his hidden skills. Since he never really 100% fit in somewhere, you could always put him anywhere and that's a great thing for a character and how you can incorporate him into stories. He was one of my favorite characters since i watched the Pilot on VHS back in 1995 or so before it even premiered on TV over here in Germany.
6:13 I strongly disagree that Emissary made "mistakes" in it's cold open and pilot. "Mistake" is very harsh of a word in this case. DS9 did take some time to get there, but that entire series was more about character and longer running stories than VOY, and the pilot reflected that heavily. The VOY producers "dialing up the action" is precisely why DS9 went on to be a memorable, endearing and thought provoking show 25 years later, while VOY does not have nearly the same impact.
Emissary's cold open shows that viewers are about to join Sisko on his journey, while Caretaker throws you straight into the action of the week the crew is facing. Both of them are very good examples of what their respective shows are about: DS9 is Sisko's journey (and the friends he makes along the way), Voyager is the adventures of the USS Voyager
I agree with you that Emissary was not a "mistake," that it's just two different approaches, but I disagree with your assertion that Voyager doesn't have the same long-term impact. Voyagers Captain made it on to the Nickelodeon kids show version, after all; that's literally a generation-spanning influence
Agreed. I am a bit perplexed by Trek Culture quite often mentioning Emissary as a bad episode. Of all the "classic Trek" pilots, Emissary is the only one I enjoy rewatching.
It’s unfortunate that they went monster of the week with VOY. Of all trek shows it would have benefited from DS9s style of story telling the most and it suffers greatly because of it
I was an adult with a longtime love of Star Trek when Voyager debuted. 1. Deep Space Nine was my favorite from the first episode. 2. Neelix was the ONLY character I liked and saw potential in, from the start. 3. The producers should have kept the character as Nick Locarno, made his redemption arc longer and less certain, and PAID THE ORIGINATOR for the use. 4. Uniformed or not the conflict between the Star Fleet and Maquis crew members was dropped to soon. There is a reason why people hold DS9 so highly and Voyager as an also ran. 5. Janeway could have kept herself in coffee for eternity if the crew hadn't used all of the replicator rations in making replacement shuttles!! Endless shuttles!
The Crips are not one big organization with subsets. They started almost that way, but more like a confederation. By the time the movie Colors came out, more Crips were killed by rival Crip gangs than by Blood or Piru sets and this has remained that way ever since. I am a former Crip. The biggest rival of the gang I belonged to was another Crip gang. Crips share a heritage, language, and vague dress code. That's it. Every Crip gang is independent of the others.
Im not big on Neelix eithee, but his send-off, with an Honor Guard, and Tuvok doing a '1 step' followed by a super-sincere 'Live Long, and Prosper...' was everything✌🖖
Hey! I cared about Neelix! He did a stupid thing for the one he loved! ... OK, several times. He was forgiven.... on a probationary status. Who hasn't been there? And he enjoyed a BATH! I enjoy them too! He's likely the only guy on the ship that revels over a nice FULL tub of hot water.
ST TNG episode where Picard, Spock and Data escaped from the Tal-Sheyar. Data used the Vulcan neck pinch on Tasha Yars daughter. As the three left the room there’s a reflection of a man’s face on a glass item on the desk. Whose reflection is that. Been wondering for so long.
Not like the conflict was one of many seasons for DS9s superior critical reception. Because it's what would happen should you try and force bajoran militia and Starfleet or Starfleet and marqis together or anything🤦 It definitely felt rushed and like things didn't really have lasting consequences...kinda like TNG Some good individual stories but it it doesn't hold up the same way especially with how media is consumed nowadays.
I really didn't like Neelix and Kes relationship. He was possessive, jealous and condescending towards Kes at every turn. She couldn't do anything on her own without his approval. I was so glad they broke up in Warlord episode, even though Kes was under the control of another species I'm still glad she said things I've been screaming to my screen throughout their relationship.
I'm floored by Number 5! Ever since I saw the show in the 90s, one of my biggest gripes was that the Maquis were all too willing to return to, not just the Federation, but also to Starfleet. To put on uniforms. To follow orders. NO! That's not the Maquis! The Maquis have a fundamental, philosophical rejection of Starfleet and the Federation, believing them to be inefficient and complacent at the best of times! Why would they EVER don those uniforms? If anything, being so far away from Federation space would make them EVEN LESS LIKELY to wear those uniforms! And, of course, the villain of this decision is now, and always has, been Rick Berman.
Great video. I actually learned some new things, Always good where any Trek is concerned. I'm dying to get the George and Gracie shirt, didn't see it on TSpring. Is it available anywhere else?
Janeway screwed that crew over so many times. Tell you what, I would get my crew home. Then I would wrestle with the morality of my decisions. Atleast my struggle would be alone. I wouldn't make others suffer. My crew would be able to live their lives, have love, have children, find themselves... I would take the hit for my team any day, everyday.
Voyager was peak Star Trek for me. There was something even about Next Gen that didn't appeal to me, as much. But God, how I enjoyed this show, on that small tv, in that little apartment... It was a time in my life, I guess.
I've always enjoyed Voyager as much or more than TNG. Excellent video, guys. For what its worth, if there was any character who didn't work on the show it was Kes. Her acting was so wooden, and her addition made things kind of creepy. In the end her character was entirely underused and her species made no sense. But thats just my opinion :)
I still remember when I watched first episode of voyager and I wondered if Paris and lacarno were the same character. In the 90s wasn’t as easy to find that info
@10:55 It wasn't legal issues. It was Rick not wanting to give the original writer a WGA character payout of $250 for every episode that they used the Nick character.
TNG,DS9 and Voyager was the GOLDEN age/era of Star Trek for me ( sorry i didn't care for Enterprise ) the current trek tv shows I don't watch,tried several times,just didn't grab my attention. Glad I have the dvds of these REALLY GOOD series,plus watching them I get so NOSTALGIC of happier times in america.
I do kinda wonder what an alternative voyager would have been like where the marquee and star fleet both had their own ships stuck in delta, and had to either match speeds to get home (a fleet) or they both choose their own path home. I imagine the conflict that could have caused when it came to how to deal with the different aliens that would be hunting them both. In that universe, I would prefer Tuvok keep his star fleet rank covert for a season or 2. But in all honesty, I am happy with what we got.
i liked Neelix at first and loved him later....in my opinion you cant have voyager without him.. yeah his introduction could of been better but over all one of the core characters
You gotta respect Garret Wang for clearing he air while humanizing Genevieve Bujold. I could imagine a lot of studio execs assuming she couldn't cut it, but she made a very human decision to put her kids first.
She would be very different Janeway. Sadly we never get to see how would Janeway story developed with her.
@@jasoncasey2527 They have picked her for reasons.
Voiceover is done separately, so you cant really judge it from those few raw cuts. Mulgrew would not be heard that much either, rly.
@@jasoncasey2527 Except she was already cast as Janeway. Had she decided to continue in the role, it was hers. Whether supposedly being described as mousy as a seasoned veteran, by her castmates (who were mostly unknown at the time), or not.
Watch Rick Berman's interview. Don't listen to Garret Wang -- guy didn't even know his own character was Chinese.
Her kids? She was already old as shit, I'm guessing her kids were grown.
I read or watched somewhere that Ethan Phillips was indeed the most cheerful person on the set. They had long shooting days, and even though he had to show up at 3 am for his makeup, he was always trying to keep everyone's spirits up. He said that Tim Russ would get into his Vulcan character so much, that sometimes, Ethan would hide underneath Tuvok's console and say "Tim, you're not a Vulcan - this is a TV show! " haha.
that's funny if true
Tim Russ's performance as Tuvok was pretty good, I can totally imagine that he got very into the role.
My headcanon maintains that Nick Locarno and Tom Paris are, indeed, the same person. Tom, always fighting with his father, changed his name to join Starfleet- he didn't want to be "The Admiral's Son"- he had the skills to get in on his own. But then, he let his ego get the better of him, and The First Duty happened, and he was kicked out- ALMOST. Before paperwork was finalized, he called in his daddy, who pulled strings and just got him held back a year, with the cavaet that "he loses the name", and Nick Locarno officially ceased to be. Tom Paris continues on and graduates Starfleet Academy- carefully avoiding any of the professors he would've had as Nick... But, Tom and Owen never got over the core issues they had, and Tom gets mixed up in the Maquis as a continuing part of his rebellious/pissing off daddy streak, gets caught, Voyager begins...
That’s my headcannon too.
If only. Unfortunately, for your head canon to work, his dad would have had to agree to the name change as well. Admiral Paris in the later seasons of Voyager, and head of Project Pathfinder.
@@joelellis7035 I think Jeremy was implying that the name Nick Lorcarno was the fake name Tom Paris took on in order to prove that he could make it on his own. So it was the fake name that got shed, no reason for his father to agree to anything then.
Thank you, this is a great justification. It’s my new head canon too!
I always felt they should have changed the character's name to Locarno once they casted this actor. It would have fit it perfectly for fans of TNG. Paris and Locarno basically have the same character backstory. Missed opportunity IMO.
Voyager is still my comfort Trek it just makes me feel good
"Enterprise" is my comfort Trek, and T'Pol is my comfort "food"....
We can all agree Voyager is not without its problems but rewatching now, it’s obviously a great show that has aged well and the characters are all a lot more likeable than most of us will remember.
It was mediocre at best, one missed opportunity after another.
@@21mushroomcupcakes33 still better than half the rubbish produced now, not least of all under the label “Star Trek”.
@@MackerelCat I don't like Discovery or Picard but I am liking Strange New Worlds. I hope they don't wreck that one also
Absolutely not. It's a badly written show with boring characters. It's impossible to enjoy unless you were subjected to hours of it before your frontal lobe developed.
I totally agree, one missed opportunity was the development of the Borg. Voyager introduced some advanced races, the Krenin, the Devore and the awesome Voth, yet the Borg don’t seem interested in assimilating these races. The writers just played it safe, Voyager was TNG lite.
Admiral Owen Paris has a picture of Nicholas Locarno on his desk... Tom and Nicholas are either canonically the same person or Owen Paris doesn't recognise his own son.
or he has another twin son he doesn't know about....
A fun casting trivia... Ethan Phillips (Neelix) and Rene Auberjonois (Odo, Deep space nine ) Played in BENSON .
Rene Auberjonois and Armin Shimerman (a Ferengi) played in Boston Legal
Sometimes actors bring former Colleagues , That's Really Nice ! :-)
I felt for a long time that Tim Paris was really Nick, since the timing between when he was is in Starfleet Academy and the launching of Voyager were just about perfect.
Also in pathfinder nick was seen on admiral Paris desk
@@izzafizza339 really? Interesting little tidbit.
@@ryansanderson23 ya idk if you watched that episode but there's a pic of tom /nick on his desk
@@izzafizza339 I'll have to rewatch it
Main difference between Nick Locorno and Tom Paris is experience. Nick was a cadet who got expelled, while Tom had actually BEEN an officer. The difference may be superfical at first, but the difference is essential.
Had "Nick" been there instead of Tom, that would have eliminated the need for Harry Kim, who was the fresh of the boat guy and not the "lovable" rouge, with the actual capability of shaping up when it was called for.
Sure, you could have made Nick into a Maquis volunteer, who later got captured and all the same as Paris and put in a few scenes of even a few flashbacks to explain his evolution between TNG and Voyager, but i think they made the choice to turn him into Tom Paris instead simply because it allowed them to give him more experience in the field than Nick actually had.
Crips & bloods? 😳🤣🤣🤣🤣1st time I heard Kazan referred as crips & bloody🤣🤣🤣so true.
I Love how you break things down. When you mention different writers, I'm thinking, "I Know Him or Her"
Nick Locarno never existed. He was an alias Tom Paris came up with to go through Starfleet Academy without the baggage of everyone knowing who his dad was. Of course, it didn't go very well for him...
At least, that's my headcanon and I'm sticking to it.
Thank you Sean for this insightful look at this I LIKE NEELIX
Didnt expect that clip of Andreas Katsulas (G'kar/Commander Tomalak). 'Twas a welcome one.
Nelix grows on you; when he departed as an Ambassador and Tuvok danced, only a little bit though, for him was endearing to a character that learned to chill his response and to listen more. The Kazon were great antagonist to me, though they do appear one-dimensional in the series; I guess I've read more into their characterization than I should have over the years! I get their background and why they don't like the Trabe. I also understand why they would be distrusting of anyone else and are filled with vengeance and animosity--as Cullah puts it, they had to fight and defend for themselves after generations of forced servitude to the Trabe (sigh!). The lesson, I guess for me, and seeing this in the context of the 1990s, is that willing workers are required to reconcile past grievances--it wasn't the Kazon who blew up the very table that was supposed to begin this reconciliation!
Dude, seriously, your opening words were 'Nelix grows on you' is correct, he is definitely a fungal infection. Not a Fun guy😯😂
@@drunkentriloquist9993 Lmao that’s how I felt when I first watched the series, for sure.
One question I have is about the Klingons. In the original series, Klingons were more human looking. TNG we got Worf and others. In Deep Space Nine, several members of Deep Space Nine went back in time and were aboard The Enterprise. There was a scene in the mess hall that had the original Klingons, and I believe it was Chief O'Brien asked Worf about them. Worf confirmed that they indeed were Klingons, and O'Brien asks what happened? Worf responds that they don't like to talk about it, but never explained it. While I know the writers made a change to their appearance, there was never any backstory to explain the change. Which brings us to Enterprise, which takes place prior to the original series, but the Klingons were the new one, not how the were for the original series, so does that mean that all the Klingons in Enterprise were from the future?
The Locarno/Paris change was simply because they didn't to pay Moore and Shankar royalties for the entire series as they created the character of Locarno. And the pacing of Emissary and Caretaker's openings are almost identical. Action then a 2 person conversation on "earth"/earth.
I think DS9 is actually the best Trek series because of the conflicts and intrigue, especially during the Dominion War. The episode where Sisko agonizes over used a ruse to bring the Romulans into the war is brilliant. We saw a glimpse of this aspect of wrestling with one’s conscience between Riker and Pressman in the TNG episode about the Pegasus. It lends a certain maturity to the story. We did see something of what might have happened with two crews on Voyager in the episode where Tuvok had done a holodeck simulation. It might have been interesting to have the two crews learning to come together over the first season of Voyager.
this was a great episode. Anyone who hates it doesn't understand the star trek unnecessary
The one character I felt was underused - unlike in the other Star Trek series was the XO first Officer - Chakotay. As for Neelix, I liked him and he developed over the series. The Maquis did have something that showed they were not Starfleet officers was their pips/insignias. In some ways it might have been good if Caretaker had been a three part episode rather than a double episode, then we could have had the reaction/asking of Janeway and Chakotay becoming one crew etc. But then that's what Fan Fiction does - fills in the missing pieces of the jigsaw and add to the characters backgrounds etc.
Neelix always reminded me of Snarf from Thundercats. Never really cared for either character but also didn't want either to get hurt. 😬
Neelix is to Star Trek as Jar Jar Binks is to Star Wars.
All throughout Voyager, I was begging for an accidental phaser discharge, or an air lock malfunction. Followed by a Top Gear/Jeremy Clarkson style “oh no, anyway…”
I'm not a fan of Voyager, but I liked Neelix. Not necessarily as a person, but as a character, I found him interesting. And annoying. But in an interesting way.
I can understand Bujold's position better now. Yeah, creatively interpreting your word is pretty common, but she made a choice about what she was going to put up with. You can respect that.
I think the concept of the Kazon - as in a near lawless force that hounds Voyager? could have been fantastic had they gone "Year of hell" with the entire show - but they were just never threatening enough :\
I couldnt get past the haircut
Personally, some of the things added later to the Kazon might have made them work better as well. The different sects being very different, culturally, from each other would have made things very interesting. Some as allies, some as enemies, some as neutral...and playing up more with the Trabe earlier to expand the thing with them about being a massive example of why the Prime Directive was necessary.
They're much more interesting with the infighting during STO where some of them Join the Delta Alliance from near the beginning.
I bloody love Neelix. I thought he was funny, clever, and the episodes that focus on him were great.
Yup Neelix was awesome!
No mention of the change of hairstyle for Janeway which prompted a very expensive reshoot of many scenes?
I never really had a problem with Neelix as a character but I hated Tuvix with a passion lol
Neeilx was awesome 😢
He looked like he was never gonna give you up, never let you down, never gonna run around, and desert you
In one of the behind the scenes, Kate didn't have the school mom hair. I didn't know that.
Would like to know how VOY would have turned out with Bujold
I understand why they needed to have the marquee crew becoming starfleet crew but it felt rushed to me. Think they should have it slowly happen over the first season rather than the course of 2 episodes
It definitely seemed like they intended the Delta quadrant to be technologically inferior but quickly dropped that idea.
where did you get the top?
11:35 isn't the FANON that Tom Paris signed up to Starfleet under alias to distance himself from his Father and all the expectations
aww poor baby
So HAPPY Janeway was recast.
I heard they also tried to get Linda Hamilton for Janeway. That would have been interesting but she declined for the same reasons of having young children.
Sorry, but in the 90's; Voyager's beginning left many of us with the impression of "Let the woman drive, she got us lost.".
The Alkazon had to be written out anyway. Voyager was traveling in a straight line in one direction not bouncing around from planet to planet. When traveling in a straight line you will eventually leave the sphere of Alkazon influence. No way could they stay involved unless they chased Voyager to earth. Which makes no sense.
Neelix was hated? I know Wesley was hated and Wheaton deserved it. But Neelix?
Loved neelix
How did I never know chakotays ship had a name?
If the life span of Ocampans is nine years, why are there old looking ones? Or are they an anomaly? Just how long is an Ocampan year?
I still feel sorry for poor Ensign Kim...7 years on the ship and NO promotion to Lieutenant
There’s an important lesson there. Squeaky wheel…
You always see naomi in the later seasons but never see Samantha Wildman. She also was an ensign that never received a higher rank.
@@liquidmidnight0748 true
And then you realise that Tom got demoted and re-promoted and Janeway gave Kim a big FU when he quipped where his was.
I recon its cuz he never get laid, women do NOT respect guys who can't get any lol
Tom Paris changed his name to Nick Locarno to prove he could make it in Starfleet without the help of his father.
I wanted to write, that he changed his name that no one gives him a bonus because his father is admiral...but in total the result is the same.
And that makes completely sense, no matter what Theorie you take.
@@mammutMK2 When he was a salamander occupying all points of spacetime simultaneously, he just went back and forgot his name for a while, don't worry about it
Agree. Head canon says it was an alias so he wouldn’t get favor in the Academy from his father’s position.
Turns out it was about Money... The same reason humanity won't see the 24th century.
69th thumbs up (that was me that was)
I learned to give premiere episodes a wide berth. Neither the writers nor the actors really know what they're about, and it usually takes the whole first season to tack enough personality onto each character to make them unique and likeable. For the record I am a Neelix fan. 😊
I competently agree and I too think Neelix is great
A good example to prove this, is how strong New Worlds started out (and is carrying on). This is at least partially because they already had a season of Discovery to figure all that out, where they sometimes did struggle a bit.
I've heard of several shows actually shooting the 2nd or 3rd episode first for this reason. Give the actors a chance to figure out the characters and then go back and shoot the opening episode.
I agree
I love neelix once Kes leaves, but he does really irritate me whilst she's there. Reminds me of my own posessive ex boyfriends lol. I love that in Star Trek Online we can go and visit Neelix and the others too, that really solidified it for me!
In regard to having the Maquis as a separate crew: it would have been nice to slow down their integration into starfleet in the first season, rather than wearing the uniforms at the end of the pilot. It doesn’t need to span a few seasons, just be a little more realistic.
More importantly than more realistic, it would have made for better storytelling.
Unfortunately, they wanted to make Voyager as syndication friendly as possible (while having a premise that really wanted something a lot more ongoing arc based)
@@Stephen-Fox I'm not so sure, drawn out intra-ship conflict over a season is partly why myself and many of the people I know dropped SGU so fast. If you have so much to explore on the ship, you forget that there is a whole quadrant outside of the ship that's far more worth exploring.
@@markpaterson2260 I’m sorry. SGU?
@@toddthomas3906 Stargate: Universe
@@markpaterson2260 I could never really get into SGU
I always felt that the VOY crews merged way too quickly. Stretching it out over, say, the first season would have been a good compromise between Pillar and Berman. I think in that point, Berman took the wrong message from DS9. The conflict potential between the different groups was part of what made DS9 my favourite Trek in terms of storytelling.
There was no point to the marquee in Voyager. No point. They could have just made them StarFleet crew who’s scout ship was lost or something.
@@kirishima638 There's only a few episodes where it matters...most of Seskas stunts, a few references, and the time where Tuvok had been mind controlled.
They didn't even really do anything when getting back in contact with the Federation when they would have learned that the Maquis back home had been wiped out...
@@kirishima638 You're right! When Berman won the uniforms argument, they became without purpose.
@@AzraelThanatos Seska could have been a plant on any ship. It wouldn’t have changed anything.
Agreed! Of course we all have the benefit of hindsight. But yeah, would have been a small change but had Pillar won the argument I think it would have made for a much richer show.
Neelix was one of my favorite characters on Voyager. Some of my favorite episodes are the ones that showcase the odd couple-esq dynamic between Neelix and Tuvok.
Neelix and Tuvok had very similar energy to Odo and Quark and it was great.
Yes, this! I always liked Neelix and that he was a bundle of nerves and insecurities hiding behind a quirky façade. But I never understood why they let him on the ship after he led the Voyager team into a dangerous situation under false pretenses. I'd never trust his advise on anything after that and would refuse him to come along on the trip. For the rest of the show it worked out pretty great, so I am fine with this.
@@Dominian1 Lots not forget his unauthorized modification to the captain's dining hall (how did security not know that was going on?) Seams there were some things that were just brushed aside and forgotten about for witting convenience that should have had at least something dialogue.
Couldn’t disagree more about Neelix character. His introduction in care taker in my opinion was pivotal to his progress in his development throughout the series. He was the one who would put everything at risk for love.
(I'm sorry, this has turned into a shortish essay. I can get a tad carried away when I'm passionate about something!)
I was annoyed by him initially, but his rescuing of Kes "explained him", as it were. From then on, I actually felt sorry for him quite frequently, because except for the few stories which revolved around him, especially the phage one (ugh!), it was like the crew didn't know what to do with him. Janeway, though understanding his usefulness regarding his knowledge of the region they found him in, and more importantly the supplies they could find, along with who they could trade with or needed to avoid, in my opinion gave him the "morale officer" job as a makeweight for the rest of the time - especially when they went past his "home region."
At least Kes fitted in well with the Doctor and got turned into a pretty good nursing assistant quite quickly. But you could feel the awkwardness of the writers at times when it came to "what are we going to do with Neelix?"
I get that, because I used to write fiction for fun, which got posted online (via a "list". This will date me to anyone old enough to know what one was!), including a few long series of quite in-depth stories which sometimes could run into two or three "episodes" and that arc returning at a later date, often happening out of the blue when I realized that about 10 stories in the past I'd made a one-line observation which suddenly had a part in the latest adventure! I lost count of the times that happened lol!
In general, the stories were usually based around 4 main characters and were, in the one particular series, told from the swapping POV of each character in turn. Sometimes, however (edit: due to the individual characters' unique skills), one or two of the characters would have very little to do but I would have to give them as near equal "screen time", as it were, because I didn't want to play favourites. My readers had their own fave characters so I had to write for them all. "My Neelix" actually had the greater knowledge of the enemy - totally grown up independent of Voyager because I didn't start writing this one series until Voyager had been finished for at least 5 years, maybe even 10. Time flies...
The POV was actually written from the thoughts of each character, and conversation from their side of the argument. Occasionally another one would get a "guest appearance" (I wrote the stories as if they were films), very occasionally they got the POV "treatment" for an episode or two, but I was having to code-switch every page or three, depending on what was going on.
One of the major characters, a particularly stoic individual (no, none of this was actually based on Star Trek. I only made the vague connection fairly recently, about 11 years since I wrote the last story!) ended up as my Neelix. He had plenty to do on a normal day, but some stories I'd have to send him off to do something else, sometimes on his own, because he didn't always fit in with the storyline! As I said, it was only after I stopped writing those series, and I had plenty of time to think about them, that it dawned on me that there was a hint of the "Neelix dilemma" in them. I hadn't started writing until Voyager was well over, so I never considered connecting the two ideas until later on.
It made me feel even more compassionately for Neelix, and more considerately towards the writers, because he's a character on a tightrope. A wobble one way and he becomes the most important character in the whole show, whereas Janeway should technically hold that position, and a wobble in the other direction could have him land up as a purely occasional character, only there for comic relief. Under the circumstances, they did a pretty good job with him. And Ethan Hawke was fantastic in the roll! As time has gone on, I do find myself being more attached to him than I thought possible!
Again, sorry for the ramble, but tangents and my brain are in cahoots with my inability to write briefly! And all this to say I agree with you!
He betrayed the crew and led them into a dangerous situation under false pretenses. I remember being very confused when they let him come with at the end of the episode. I still love the character for the rest of the show, but that's my nit-pick for the pilot.
He was irritating to me in The Caretaker, except for the bath scene....that tipped off that he had a bit more range....
I love everything about Voyagers concept. I was hooked from the start when it first aired.
I loved Neelix and never understood what other people had against him.
He was obnoxious and his character design was lame. Q calling him a kitchen rat was spot on.
Yeah, me too. I think some people can’t get past the goofier elements of the character to find someone who is rebuilding his life after incalculable loss, searching for a family, and terribly afraid of losing it all again, but from that comes a strength and loyalty that makes him quite endearing.
I thought he was OK. I liked 7of 9 but re-watching there was too much emphasis on her and a lot of other characters were tossed aside. For example, I liked Tuvok and Janeways friendship. His character should have been more developed. I liked Kes. Sad to see her go. Would rather have Neelix gone than her.
@@21mushroomcupcakes33 neelix was a very good character in the beginning and probably the most important one.
he was the link between the yoager and the delta quadrant.
Without him they would have died in a short time.
At least that's how it should have been handled.
Unfortunately, like just about everything else about the series, it was simply dropped faster than any of us would have liked.
I also liked that he pulled the stick out of the crew's ass. anyway that should have been a lot stronger part. in the end other characters did it.
He should have shown that the great rules and regulations of the federation will not get you very far and that you have to adapt and act differently to reach your goals and not end up as a victim.
You could have made great episodes there. where one would have to justify immoral action, for the greater purpose, etc.
Unfortunately, Neelix was forgotten and nothing was done with him. They even took his baby girlfriend and put everything on Seven instead. Was also a good decision but you shouldn't have sacrificed the other characters for it.
It would have been better if Neelix left her sooner because he doesn't want to leave his homequadrant and it's also more logical to leave him behind when he has nothing useful to contribute other than another creature that costs food and energy.
Then Neelix could have been traded for Seven and she could have done the job Neelix had of guiding Voyager safely through the Beta Quadrant.
Voyager has really been taking off again latelyin content around the interwebs. I feel like people are finally starting to appreciate it more and more. Personally it's become my comfort show at this point.
Watch it on upn in the late 90s loved it childhood memories
Voyager is my favorite Star Trek series but Strange New Worlds is quickly working its way up there for me.
The source of a lot of Voyager hate is the fact that what it IS and what it was supposed to BE are two very different things. The premise is not supposed to be comfortable; quite the opposite, in fact. That dissonance has led to a lot of resentment from the fanbase, and there's no easy way to square that circle, unfortunately.
It isn’t hate, it is disappointment, wasted potential and missed opportunities, it seems to me that many people are prepared to put up with any level of absurdity.
The worst thing about voyager was all the lost potential. Like what if they had to give up their quaters and bunk up so they could build a torpedo workshop. By the end it should have all all sorts of alien parts bolted on. It seems ever time they had a good idea someone shut them down.
they had to appeal to that mainstream audience
@@mind4lease554 and syndication continuity
The premise of Voyager is so good; imagine if they had actually had a hard time integrating the starfleet and maquis crews. So much drama and storytelling they could have leveraged. Instead the crews are pretty much just one crew way too quickly.
They had to convert the good ideas to torpedoes and shuttles
It's why Ron Moore got out of Star Trek. Berman and paramount executives wanted to play it safe. Moore felt like there should have been more peril and consequences.
"...We have the usual, y'know, consoles made of rocks exploding all around us" killed me.
Huge Voyager fan here and I wanted to thank you so much for this incredible dedication. Really enjoyed it!
8:27 I didn't know this was ever even considered. I've always thought Starfleet and the Maquis should have been separate crews for the first season, working together, but distrusting each other. As the season finale, give them their Beast of Tanagra that finally brings them all together.
@@jatmo6991 In my ideal version, they would not go the whole 75,000 ly as separate crews, just one seasons worth of light years. In the actual show, they went ~300 ly in season 1. Also, I imagine everyone would understand that it's in their best interest to cooperate, but Starfleet and the Maquis do things differently. Imagine having the Learning Curve vibe throughout season 1, but the finale has a bigger threat than cheese bacteria.
Yeah, it feels like that might have been the start of Voyager failing to live up to the concept. Two crews that don't really get along forced to work together to get home? That's a *great* idea, tons of potential for tension.
But it's just kind of ignored. The crew of Voyager is Starfleet, and they act like it.
The Maquis were literal terrorists many likely having murdered Starfleet members. The idea that everyone would be totally ok with that ever let alone so quickly was rather distasteful to me at the time.
That honestly would've bored me to death
I just assumed, besides the issue of the Cardassians, the Maquis were mostly Ex-Starfleet and once they were thousands of light years from that situation their differences were negligible.
Gotta say, not in the majority on my opinion of Neelix. Thought from the start he was one of the best characters on Voyager. Basically a good guy but not above looking out for himself first. Probably the closest to a real life person on the show.
literally just started voyager and found out people dont like neelix and was outraged! theres a lot of well balanced nuance in neelix, as much as there are good bits in his personality there are believable and interesting negatives
Nellie is one of the only characters on the show I liked. I pretty much hated everyone besides Tuvok.
I agree Neelix was a great character. The only one I didn't really see as anything great was Harry Kim. He was really only there to be Tom's friend or buddy.
Neelix did tend to waffle at times, but it's actually pretty understandable. As the series goes on, you begin to understand that in spite of his cheery demeanor, he had suffered immensely through his life. His family was killed by a weapon of mass destruction. He learned to survive by any means possible. And Neelix didn't stop his bad habits right away. When Voyager was leaving the area of space Neelix knew of, he went to find maps, getting caught up in a scheme to steal warp plasma from Voyager. This was actually something of a redemption for Neelix, as he instead set up a fake deal with a leaking canister of plasma from his ship. He put others before his own desires. It also redefined Neelix's role on the ship. When he comes clean about it all, Captain Janeway has him take the role of an ambassador on their behalf.
I honestly feel Neelix is a decent character, but only because he was allowed time to grow. The show had plenty of issues, especially in early seasons. But that's the same for all new shows(except maybe Lower Decks). And honestly you can't go into a pilot episode realistically and expect to develop everyone's character. It was good that they gave us a taste of who these people are and let them grow over time, especially when the story is that you're put in a dire situation and you're trying to keep things from getting worse.
I agree on the part of Nellix's growth. I could not stand him for the majority of the seasons and wished they had killed his character off. But he earned my respect by the latter 3 seasons and I actually even enjoyed those few episodes in those seasons that tended to have him play bigger points in the plot. I credit that to Ethan Phillips' phenomenal acting and good foresight as to how his character should grow while on the show. I actually kind of missed Neelix when he left.
I liked Neelix he was fun and had a big hart glad they gave him a happy ending, would love to see him in lower decks to see how he got on even if its on a view screen chatting to mariner
@@railroad5024 To be fair, he did appear in Endgame. He basically was having a chat with Seven when she had to abruptly hang up and do some work.
I hope she called back to tell him what was going on. Otherwise he may have assumed the worst.
@@simonupton-millard I think if Neelix will pop up anywhere, it will be in Prodigy, seeing as the ship can pretty much go to the Delta Quadrant whenever.
Don't agree with lower decks - the comedy was super cringe for me in Season 1 - way over the top Americanized stuff.
Season 2 is way more cerebral and I love it :)
Rick Berman AGAIN. If he didn't want conflict on the ship, why have the Maquis on the ship at all? It literally would've taken nothing away from the show to have had all the characters (well, apart from Kes, der scheisskopf and later Seven) be Starfleet from the start. Hell, have it be a training vessel with Janeway as the captain, Chakotay as the lead instructor, the EMH as the EMH still and all the other characters be trainees. You'd have had more conflict and better conflict than what little we actually got on Voyager.
I can understand why Ronald D. Moore decided to lean into all of Voyager's missed opportunities when he left to make Battlestar Galactica. Internal conflict between the surviving factions, crises of leadership, and real consequences for past decisions.
DS9 certainly started the ball rolling there, but I think Voyager dropped it.
It was a good idea, but with bad timing. The inner turmoil would have made it to be too close to DS9 and the Series would not have lasted as long. So, they went with the best storyarc for the show at the time. And then it was also a balance between the The Original Series and The Next Generation. It was in itself an experiment between the too show and sometime didn't exactly hit the mark, but the acting was always excellent.With Chakotay being a possible Kirk and Janeway being a possible Picard. Nick Lacarno and Tom Paris are the same person. Someone else proposed this and I like it. He wanted to be in Starfleet but didn't use his given name so that he wouldn't have to be under his Father's shadow. And then used his real name in what led to him being redeemed and finding a place for himself. And in Threshold, (Yes, I have to bring it up.) is where he grew up and became the true Tom Paris: The Man. The Husband. The Father. The real meaning of the title is that he broke his threshhold of being what he was the always rebelious male that didn't want to grow to the Man that embraced everything of his maturity that he realized he needed. I also liked Neelix, he was the person that supplied information if not other things for the ship. Without Neelix, Kes would not have been added to the crew. And he was half of the friendship that helped Paris grow as well. Also, the narrator is being impatient. Babylon 5 introduced each of the different factions and their Ambassadors in separate Episodes.
You kind of described Star Trek Prodigy.
@@Beohun Okay, then it is similar to an older Series. It isn't a bad idea to use old ideas that worked.
Bah! The Kazon are not discount knockoff Klingons. The Nausicans are discount knockoff Klingons. The Kazon are defective discount Nausicans.
Absolutely love Voyager 💗☺️. This is the series that got me into Star Trek as a whole. 🌌🛸🚀👾
Voyager is great.
I've always liked Neelix.
Me too, in a lot of ways I view him as the John Candy of Planes Trains and Automobiles in the franchise and that really led to him having some beloved touching moments on camera as the series progressed and made him a lot more humanized and relatable to me growing up watching the series. He does deserves a lot lore respect than he gets.
He definitely grew on me as time went on
Heard a great theory for Nick vs. Tom:
Tom called himself Nick Locarno in the academy not to be compared to Admiral Owen Paris. He dropped it after he got expelled.
The George and Gracie shirt makes me think we could use a video about the animals of Star Trek. Porthos, Livingston, that little dog from The Enemy Within, etc.
You could always say, "primary hull," instead of saucer section.
As far as I'm concerned, Tom Paris is Nick Locarno, for all intents and purposes. I always accepted that Locarno was retconned to be Tom Paris.
I rewatched all of Voyager last year, and I'm sorry, but Neelix, at least in the earlier seasons, was terrible--as in not a good person. He was possessive of Kes, almost to the point of neurosis, and then he was also abusive to her. He'd play mind games, yell at her, yell his conspiracy theories about what Tom Paris wanted to do to/with her. He was combative at times with the crew. He was a jerk.
I hear a lot that Neelix is a generally hated character in the Star Trek fan community, but I've never really understood why. I was a kid watching the show, and I loved Neelix from the first time I saw him, and my parents enjoyed him as a character, too. I mean, who couldn't love seeing him luxuriate in that bathtub and hear him sing that incredibly silly song? It's a funny scene, and we all really fell for him as a character. Yet somehow he's the Jar-Jar Binks of Star Trek to many fans (another character I enjoy). LOL
He was touted as so diplomatic yet was aggressively annoying to others. And more so not just ignorant of his effect, but wallowing in it refusing to adjust his behavior to fit others' emotional needs. It was a big case of what they showed drastically disagreeing with what the story told us about him.
You left out the fan theory that after being expelled Nic Licarno stole the identity of his Starfleet academy roommate Tom Paris inspired by the fact that they had been told many times how much they resembled each other.
A fan theory that would see Admiral Paris not recognize his own son? is there a short-sighted sub-plot too? ;)
I never knew that Neelix was disliked by many. I always liked him though.
I did not know that either. How could anyone hate Neelix. But then I also don't understand how so many people hate Voyager either....
man I wish they had kept the separate crews at least for one or two more episodes, not to add more conflict, but just to make it more sensical, and make these characters feel more well rounded.
I liked Neelix. He was rough at the beginning because he was trying to survive on his own and he lost his partner.
lost his entire family, I thought. That's why he was so protective of Kes.
To be fair, when I watched Voyager back when I was a kid my mom would sometimes watch with me. Her favourite character was Neelix, and she would go to bat to support him
Maybe she wished your father would have been more of a "Neelix"???...
@@MoveoverAndbark in terms of personality and responsibility, yes actually 🤪
To be honest i never had a problem with Neelix in "The Caretaker" nor in the rest of the show. He was always a quirky oddball character from the beginning who we get to know a bit more over the course of the show and also his hidden skills. Since he never really 100% fit in somewhere, you could always put him anywhere and that's a great thing for a character and how you can incorporate him into stories. He was one of my favorite characters since i watched the Pilot on VHS back in 1995 or so before it even premiered on TV over here in Germany.
Neelix was great
I feel he was a bit much at times
DS9 didn't have "failing ratings". It was the #1 syndicated show for years.
That's not how the ratings he means work.
6:13 I strongly disagree that Emissary made "mistakes" in it's cold open and pilot. "Mistake" is very harsh of a word in this case. DS9 did take some time to get there, but that entire series was more about character and longer running stories than VOY, and the pilot reflected that heavily. The VOY producers "dialing up the action" is precisely why DS9 went on to be a memorable, endearing and thought provoking show 25 years later, while VOY does not have nearly the same impact.
What , what , and what now!??
Emissary's cold open shows that viewers are about to join Sisko on his journey, while Caretaker throws you straight into the action of the week the crew is facing.
Both of them are very good examples of what their respective shows are about: DS9 is Sisko's journey (and the friends he makes along the way), Voyager is the adventures of the USS Voyager
I agree with you that Emissary was not a "mistake," that it's just two different approaches, but I disagree with your assertion that Voyager doesn't have the same long-term impact. Voyagers Captain made it on to the Nickelodeon kids show version, after all; that's literally a generation-spanning influence
Agreed. I am a bit perplexed by Trek Culture quite often mentioning Emissary as a bad episode. Of all the "classic Trek" pilots, Emissary is the only one I enjoy rewatching.
It’s unfortunate that they went monster of the week with VOY. Of all trek shows it would have benefited from DS9s style of story telling the most and it suffers greatly because of it
I was an adult with a longtime love of Star Trek when Voyager debuted.
1. Deep Space Nine was my favorite from the first episode.
2. Neelix was the ONLY character I liked and saw potential in, from the start.
3. The producers should have kept the character as Nick Locarno, made his redemption arc longer and less certain, and PAID THE ORIGINATOR for the use.
4. Uniformed or not the conflict between the Star Fleet and Maquis crew members was dropped to soon. There is a reason why people hold DS9 so highly and Voyager as an also ran.
5. Janeway could have kept herself in coffee for eternity if the crew hadn't used all of the replicator rations in making replacement shuttles!! Endless shuttles!
bit Tom Paris, is a better name.
dense collection of dense takes lmao
The Crips are not one big organization with subsets. They started almost that way, but more like a confederation. By the time the movie Colors came out, more Crips were killed by rival Crip gangs than by Blood or Piru sets and this has remained that way ever since. I am a former Crip. The biggest rival of the gang I belonged to was another Crip gang. Crips share a heritage, language, and vague dress code. That's it. Every Crip gang is independent of the others.
Im not big on Neelix eithee, but his send-off, with an Honor Guard, and Tuvok doing a '1 step' followed by a super-sincere 'Live Long, and Prosper...' was everything✌🖖
Hey! I cared about Neelix!
He did a stupid thing for the one he loved! ... OK, several times. He was forgiven.... on a probationary status. Who hasn't been there? And he enjoyed a BATH! I enjoy them too! He's likely the only guy on the ship that revels over a nice FULL tub of hot water.
ST TNG episode where Picard, Spock and Data escaped from the Tal-Sheyar. Data used the Vulcan neck pinch on Tasha Yars daughter. As the three left the room there’s a reflection of a man’s face on a glass item on the desk. Whose reflection is that. Been wondering for so long.
Not like the conflict was one of many seasons for DS9s superior critical reception.
Because it's what would happen should you try and force bajoran militia and Starfleet or Starfleet and marqis together or anything🤦
It definitely felt rushed and like things didn't really have lasting consequences...kinda like TNG
Some good individual stories but it it doesn't hold up the same way especially with how media is consumed nowadays.
I really didn't like Neelix and Kes relationship. He was possessive, jealous and condescending towards Kes at every turn. She couldn't do anything on her own without his approval. I was so glad they broke up in Warlord episode, even though Kes was under the control of another species I'm still glad she said things I've been screaming to my screen throughout their relationship.
I always liked Neelix. Very nice caring heart filled guy. Just a terrible cook.
I'm floored by Number 5!
Ever since I saw the show in the 90s, one of my biggest gripes was that the Maquis were all too willing to return to, not just the Federation, but also to Starfleet. To put on uniforms. To follow orders.
NO! That's not the Maquis! The Maquis have a fundamental, philosophical rejection of Starfleet and the Federation, believing them to be inefficient and complacent at the best of times! Why would they EVER don those uniforms?
If anything, being so far away from Federation space would make them EVEN LESS LIKELY to wear those uniforms!
And, of course, the villain of this decision is now, and always has, been Rick Berman.
Great video. I actually learned some new things, Always good where any Trek is concerned. I'm dying to get the George and Gracie shirt, didn't see it on TSpring. Is it available anywhere else?
Janeway screwed that crew over so many times. Tell you what, I would get my crew home. Then I would wrestle with the morality of my decisions. Atleast my struggle would be alone. I wouldn't make others suffer. My crew would be able to live their lives, have love, have children, find themselves... I would take the hit for my team any day, everyday.
Voyager was peak Star Trek for me. There was something even about Next Gen that didn't appeal to me, as much. But God, how I enjoyed this show, on that small tv, in that little apartment... It was a time in my life, I guess.
The worst part about Neelix was his relationship with Kes aka wesley 2.0.Once she left the show his character got much better.
Very true!!!
If this series was mostly written and controlled by both Piller and Taylor. This show would have been much more exciting and memorable!!!!
I've always enjoyed Voyager as much or more than TNG. Excellent video, guys. For what its worth, if there was any character who didn't work on the show it was Kes. Her acting was so wooden, and her addition made things kind of creepy. In the end her character was entirely underused and her species made no sense. But thats just my opinion :)
I still remember when I watched first episode of voyager and I wondered if Paris and lacarno were the same character. In the 90s wasn’t as easy to find that info
New Tom/Nick theory.
His name change was due to the events of the Temporal Cold War.
@10:55 It wasn't legal issues. It was Rick not wanting to give the original writer a WGA character payout of $250 for every episode that they used the Nick character.
I think Tom could have and should have been Nick. That would have been continuity perfection.
I always refered to the Kazons and Space oompa-Loompas.
TNG,DS9 and Voyager was the GOLDEN age/era of Star Trek for me ( sorry i didn't care for Enterprise ) the current trek tv shows I don't watch,tried several times,just didn't grab my attention. Glad I have the dvds of these REALLY GOOD series,plus watching them I get so NOSTALGIC of happier times in america.
I do kinda wonder what an alternative voyager would have been like where the marquee and star fleet both had their own ships stuck in delta, and had to either match speeds to get home (a fleet) or they both choose their own path home. I imagine the conflict that could have caused when it came to how to deal with the different aliens that would be hunting them both. In that universe, I would prefer Tuvok keep his star fleet rank covert for a season or 2. But in all honesty, I am happy with what we got.
I wrote a fan story which took place in the Delta Quadrant. . took place a few years after Voyager went home.
i liked Neelix at first and loved him later....in my opinion you cant have voyager without him.. yeah his introduction could of been better but over all one of the core characters
i agree