Links for your reference (Non-affiliate) GR-Research XLS Encore: gr-research.com/product/x-ls-encore/ GR-Research DIY speaker cables: gr-research.com/product/24-strand-diy-audiophile-speaker-cable/ Aliexpress Speaker cables: www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001933248840.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.21ef1802i6K7JE Related videos: Danny at GR-Research made a video and it Is Elitist and Delusional: ruclips.net/video/zxlUYfpxNMY/видео.html
Jay I consider you one of the most important audio reviewers for two reasons. You are young and you took the time to listen to a very large sample of high end and vintage gear before you really ramped up your review channel. Most reviewers at any age have relatively small sample sizes of the gear they have actually listen to. They don't know what they don't know. As a 60 year old audio guy I think it's critical to high end audio that younger enthusiast like yourself carry this forward. But I would suggest your read on Danny was misplaced. He basically invited all camps to join him and see were it would lead. Sure it came off as arrogant but when you get older you find less time to sugar coat your thoughts. When I look at the room treatments, good quality speaker stands, audio platforms and other things you are using it would seem to me that you and Danny are totally aligned. So why would Danny send his cable or speakers to some reviewer that did not believe any of these things matter. Yet you interpreted his bluntness as a personal insult. This also seems to be motivating you to hyper scrutinize any claim GR makes at a level you don't seem to do with any other manufacturer.
@@theaterboyeBay thanks for the comment. I do not have any intentions to hyper criticize anything. I just wish to thoroughly check the claims as I am personally interested. Many are also curious as Danny does put out many claims out there. I told Danny in an email that I will be fair in the assessment of his product and he said that he trusted me to do just that. I have no interest in betraying that trust and the trust of the viewers JUST to discredit or take a shot at Danny. I’m here for audio and I will stay true to that fact and passion. Thanks !
@@Jayiyagi Watched a bunch of Jay's reviews. Was anticipating this one, having actually heard a cheap (non upgraded) sample. Best speaker ever?!? No not exactly. Super impressed for the parts and price. Yes hard to beat. After the podcast and back and forth, this introduction and feedback in the comments is not surprising. What I believe stands out to people that have seen Jay in action is that he is overly eager to find avenues to discredit GR's creation. Measuring the purity of the connection, getting the accuracy through 3rd parties. I'm all for it, but he has not ever come close to considering doing this to his retail reviews (nor the CSS) It feels like you got the horse before the carriage and now you try to save face. If you would have only have approached this initial view as all your videos.... Hard to go back from here.. Danny is an A$$ calling people out. He comes across very arrogant, but clearly provides great value for Sound in the DIY market. With Jay coming in hurt and tainted does not help anyone.
@@mr.t.7477 GR Research makes a lot of claims including the connectors’ purity. If CSS Audio made the same claims or something similar - I would have been interested to check it out. I have no interest in discrediting GR-Research. And I am doing a Blind A/B precisely for people like you that are on the fence about me coming in “tainted” or “biased” Cheers.
I have recently gotten into designing and building my own speakers and I like learning as much as I can on the subject. What I don’t care about is “drama”, so I really appreciate you taking a professional approach to this review. For people like me, a speaker I get to build myself is actually a good thing, not a bad thing. I get for others that it is definitely a bad thing to have to build the speaker, but I like to be able to make things my own (picking my own paint color or wood finish).
I have also been building speakers since the 70s. But then I was just putting drivers in boxes and designing crossovers (like most speakers). If I just did that now, I would only build one set. But cos I don't just do that, I have built several sets in the last few years and I'm going to probably end up selling some. The concept is a med/treble open driver mounted on top of the box (either FR or coaxial driver) and a 10" woofer in the box. I have some AU $2,400 B&W 706 bookshelf speakers (to get an idea of how a speaker should sound). My made speakers completely smoke the B&Ws! Yet the B&Ws do help a lot (especially with bass that varies in the room with my movement). And they improved my speaker hobby immensely! Yet I don't like them, with a slightly "muffly" voice sound. But (really) that's a minor detail, generally, a reference of the bass, med, and treble levels is what really helps me. That's the important thing! Recommended if you haven't got a soundproof room and all that gear. So I make my made speakers sound a bit different but not too different and mine sound way better, for me, at least. They are dipole with the sound coming out the back as well as the front. They sound like panel speakers and the med is incredibly clean, compared to normal speakers (not one sour notes on mine). But it's till hard to get it but not as hard as normal speakers.And if there is any echo in a recording, you are going to hear it! You are in with the band! And being point source as well as dipole, it's holographic off the scale, sounds come from nowhere! 😂 Put a woofer in a box with a big inductor on it and a 5" Tang Band or Fostex FR driver mounted on top of the box (sloped back so it's not so in your face). You can use Blue Tack for temporary mounting solution. I use zip ties and eye hooks. 😂 I tried the setup with no crossover filter on the 5" FR and sounds good, but a 100 mf cap on it is recommended for more power handling and that gives more bass for the woofer. If you are like me and want the best sound, you can make a crossover filter for the FR. I use AU $9 FR and they need the highs to be kicked up, with a 2 mf cap and a small resistor iñ parallel with it (to make it simple). But I go full out and have a few parts on the 5" open driver (including an inductor for less upper med). Definitely well worth a try, they sound hi end (especially with a large woofer). More impact.
Peerless / Vifa / Scanspeak have been making great performing and cost effective speakers drivers for a long time. The 1st set that I built 51 years ago used a 5" Peerless mid-woofer and a Audax dome tweeter and had not one of my kids decided that the domes should be flat I would probably still be using them. My 75 year old ears that spent 15 months on an M60 main battle tank are not that discerning and anything above 12,000 hz is fiction to me. The quality (not good or bad) of sound that I prefer comes from soft dome tweeters and paper woofers. I can't wait for the review.
I thought peerless were some of the best in the business. I have a set of ne 180 woofers that were designed by the same people that did the scan speak woofers. They feel light because they use neodymium magnets. Very light but extremely strong magnets.
I’m with you, my $16k speakers use Audax 1.5in soft dome tweeters Scanspeak titanium super tweeters and paper woofers , exceptional sounding. I don’t think Jay realizes the quality drivers these companies actually make and probably many speakers he’s liked used those brands. Keep on keeping on brother , 20yr US Army Retired.
Thanks for the video Jay. I look forward to the blind A/B testing and the measurements. I like the test plan and look forward to your honest opinion. It's nice to see someone willing to put their personal feelings aside and let the speaker and the numbers/traces fall where they may. I must admit I own a pair of XLS Encores mainly because I like the way they sound and I like building myself when I can. I am interested in the comparison between the CSS Audio 1TDX crossover to Danny's. I know Danny's Encore is a DIY point-to-point lay it out yourself crossover. Not necessarily the easiest task for the non-technical guys. Haven't seen the CSS but I am curious. Glad you are feeling better. Keep the videos coming and I'll keep watching.
Hi Jay Love your Chanel, I have used the Ali-express cables for a while and did a small video about them on my Chanel Something must be wrong with these Cables some possibilities to check 1) Mislabeled polarity 2) Not all the strands are soldered in the termination sometimes they are sloppy. I suggest cutting the banana plugs out and use the bare wire 3) A bad example of Ali-express cable check that each strand is about 0.75 mm in diameter (0.03 inch) the total of each 12 strands (not 24) bare copper should be 3.5mm. (0.14 inch) Each strand should be made of multiple thin strands not solid 4) Bad connection with the speakers not tight enough accidental polarity swap. 5) May be stuffing the cable with a rope ( like GR shows how to do it) , does make a difference I would try that at the end. Very Curious how it goes I would really hate to have to buy his Cables we must find the secret :)
I had built GR-Research NX-Studio with all the Crossover upgrades (I upgraded the Mills to Path Audio Resistors). After 300hrs of running...these are Opening up really nicely. The tube connecters I had trashed as they had corrosion inside of female end. I used WBT Binding Posts and to be frank...$60 Tube Connecters look and are built like $10. Enjoy your review and keep it going!!!
We have not seen that before. If that is the case you could have sent them back and had them replaced. Using the WBT's was a hit to the performance compared to what you would have gotten with the tube connectors.
I think the simpler reason that Danny doesn't measure below 200Hz is pragmatic: in order to eliminate room reflections the measurement software takes maximum 5ms "slices" of sound, which means that anything lower that that frequency can't be measured as you're not even capturing a full wave. As far as I know anyway.
I have been building audio gear as a hobby for quite some time, I have built the XLS Encores and like you I found the drive construction to be underwhelming especially the woofer. Regardless of that they do fit my ear as well. They are very clear and the detail is very good. I think what makes them is the tweeter. It is very crisp and clear but not fatiguing. I would really like to see better quality drivers but hey they sound good and they do the job so that's all that matters. Look forward to your next vid on these.!!
Ok when are we going to see a comparison to the CSS Criton 1TD-X? You've given very high praise to the Criton in the past. I bought the Criton kit based on your review and a few others. I have not built them yet but am looking forward to it.
I finished my Criton 1TDX (with x-over upgrade) about 2 months ago and they continue to impress with every listen! They are all of what Jay has already said. I think the Encore’s are going to be less meaty in the bass texture and a bit more challenging to assemble for the novice. That CSS kit is just fantastic for the beginner. The soldering is very easy to understand and the box is easy to build! Good luck with yours!
how do the GR cables and the ali cables measure as far as resistance/capacitance/inductance? something seems fishy about the aliexpress. i'd love to see a number that can be correlated with the cable and why it might sound different.
About the speaker cables: It's either the connectors or the core. GR uses a thick rope as a core to stretch the cable and make individual wires cross at a larger angle. Lefthand rule: less interference. Put a rope core in the Aliexpress cable, change the connectors over and find out.
You’re right, although I understand that Danny slides a PTFE tube as a core. This is available from aliexpress and adds about 20% to the cost of the cable overall. I know because I did it. No idea how mine sound against the GR Research cables, obviously, however, my cables were a significant upgrade over my old plain copper cables.
The higher gauge wires almost always sound as if the sound was fuller and a bit more bass wass added. It's not night and day difference, but it's noticeable. The same thing happens when someone upgrades crossover inductors in the woofer circuit from 16ga to say 12ga, but even 14ga inductor with it's 60% impedance of the 16ga makes a measurable difference during freq sweep on woofer's connectors. Generally the total series impedance of wires and crossover shouldn't be more than 15% of the woofers impedance.
You forgot about the copper: The best is Pure OFC. The Aliexpress cable are probably made of cheaper copper mixed with other metal(s). Insulating material is probably different too.
@@guyboisvert66 I have some on the way and it is better than OFC copper, it is OCC copper. Those cables sure look thicker than I'd prefer, but i'll see. I have 10-gauge right now and I don't want to go any lower. It was hard to do the math to figure out what gauge these Ali's were and the seller could not convert the size for me either... I had the 24 core.
A lot of electrical cable made in China is aluminium based with copper plating. Of course, on must remember that high frequency is conducted on the surface of a conductor and if the Chinese cable only have a few microns of copper plate over the conductor then obviously the character will be a lot different to a solid copper cable. Chinese wire is also mostly hard drawn, which is different than an annealed copper or a single crystalline cable. So yes you are correct in saying a cable is not the same if its construction and material used is not the same, at higher frequencies this does come into play.
If you look not too hard online you will find a website that publishes the measurements of Chinese knockoff Kimber 12TC and & they measure near identical. Difference would be impossible to detect
Dude, you really should spend some time on the DIY forums, and read the books and magazines for DIY'ers, learn what's what. Ask Danny what rope to buy at your local home center and thread it thru your Ali Express cable, see if that makes them more sonically equal to the GR-R cable. It should. With a braided or twisted cable, the closer to 90º X intersections of the braid strands and the more air (space) between strands the better the sound will be, that is the reason for Danny threading rope thru the center of his cable. Re Tube Connecters. I feel Danny didn't tell you the whole story. it's not just that they are pure copper (pure Silver would be better), plenty of pure copper binding posts on the market, it is the lack of metal that makes them good. Minimal metal will be better than a huge chunk of machined copper binding posts. Think WBT Nextgen, and Eichmann binding post. Also, you're wasting your time with the jeweler, if Danny says they are pure copper believe him. If you want to nitpick send it to a metallurgist for grain structure and purity testing. Anyway, they say nothing good happens between 2am and 7am, and it's almost 4am now so that's all you're going to be getting out of me on this, I don't feel like proofreading and backing up statements with the science behind them at this hour, sorry. Peace.
Woofer weight is a myth. Some manufactures ADD weight to their woofers (especially rampant in car audio). In reality, if the woofer is well designed and the materials are well chosen, the weight is not often relevant, not like people assume. Big magnets are like big car engines: something already went wrong when you need excess power. Make your car (or speaker) lighter, and you can get around the track faster (accelerate faster).
Woofers don't take corners. You can only make an rough analogy to acceration and braking. Reality is that motor strength is very important, especially in the woofer of a 2-way speaker that is tasked with handling some deep bass and thus making some pretty deep excursions.
The approach you are taking on this review is nice. It’s good to see you are giving Danny Ritchie and GR Research a fair shot. They have been around for a long time, and they are very knowledgeable on everything that can impact the signal path and sound. I look forward to your review of their speaker and cable comparison against Blue Jeans, which I currently use.
Still pretty happy with the CopperColour you recommended a little ways back. My money will be on the CSS over the GR but interested to see the blind test. Thanks Jay!
Jay? Did you burn in the Aliexpress speaker cables before you did any serious comparative listening? I noticed you didn't say. But, some of use would like to know if the cables were burned in first (in my experience about a week's worth of playing before any serious listening).
When your camera guy described the difference in sound, the increase in bass and presence, it sounded exactly like someone describing an out of phase speaker connection. Might want to make sure the cable ends are labeled correctly, they might be getting hooked up backwards.
So glad to see you give your honest opinion (not that I didn't expect you to - but very commendable). I really like both your channels and I don't like seeing Mommy and Daddy fight. Much respect!
Another Great video Jay! Great response to Danny's video which I did not appreciate. It was elitist and unnecessary. And I don't appreciate smugness in an audio review either. We certainly don't all agree but we all are in it to share, learn and improve our sound. Love the Ali-express bit too. I find their cables are interesting because them imitate name-brand manufacturers but don't quite get the subtleties. Because they are inexpensive and varied, they are also useful to study sound signatures of cables (even power cables) especially when throwing authentic name brand cables in the mix.
Regarding the woofer driver frame material: it's composite because its 1) mechanically stiff 2) light and 3) non-resonant. Oh, and it doesn't ring, which is probably it's most important attribute. Personally, I don't understand the concern of _what_ something is made of; what matters is _how_ it functions. I'll just add that F1 cars are composite as well. Regarding the cables, one can't draw informed conclusions of a speaker cable simply from what it looks like, the quality of the materials, it's geometry (how it's wound) and the....dielectric (insulator) matter also, and, most importantly all these factors _interact,._ just as Time and Temperature often interact as factors in a chemical reaction. The Ali Express cables likely use PVC for the insulator, which has a notably negative impact on sound qualty, the best-sounding dielectric material is FEP (not Teflon). Again, what matters at the end of the day is how it *functions* (i.e., how it sounds). Regarding the tube connectors, not only is it important they are made of pure copper, but low mass as well. Danny's products are very well thought-out with respect both functionality, but also they're designed to _maximize_ interactions that contribute to functionality and sound quality and _minimize_ deleterious interactions that impact sound quality. The issues I see with almost ALL reviewers* is they approach product functionality from a very simplistic frame of reference: that is, single factors by themselves are responsible for functionality (in this case, audio quality), without giving any consideration to the fact that design factors, materials, and control variables often _interact._ I can tell you that as someone who spent 40 years working as a professional scientist and 10 years as a Design for Six Sigma Master Black Belt, this overly simplistic perspective/viewpoint of single factors, functioning independently by themselves, is almost *never* how the REAL WORLD *works.* (*-they also don't perform any statistically valid measurement systems analysis [MSA], either, in fact, they don't even know what MSA is, but that's a story for another day).
Just to let some of the commenters know that the speaker cable is a kit and will be less than half the price posted if you assemble yourself. The price posted includes professional assembly thus getting to that price.
How did you A/B the speaker cables? I thought you mentioned that Danny's Tube Connectors are not compatible with regular binding posts, so how did you connect them to the other speakers?
You'll do the industry & RUclips audio channels a great service if you indeed complete the tests & comparisons you mention in this video. So eager to see & hear the findings. Great video!
If you ever want to hear the rest of Danny's lineup, you are welcome to stop by if you are ever in New-Brunswick. I have upgraded X-statiks, X-Voce center, AVR surrounds, sealed sub for HT and a pair of fully upgraded NX-Oticas with a pair of triple OB subs.
How are x-statiks? They look crazy but amazing! My worry is that you need to pull them out 3 ft minimum right? I'd love to hear your opinion of those speakers, cheers. Frank
Ok, I watched the whole thing twice. Good job Jay. Overall a fair initial first impression. I am glad you are able to put aside personal issues and just stick to the sound! I have enjoyed your reviews, especially of the Doge gear! Cheers and happy Canada Day from Northern California. 😁
I want to know how that speaker stacks up against the triangle Berea bro 3 ? Those cables are not worth $500 sorry. That speaker from gr research cost how much and it has a $40 woofer in it really. I'm real curious because those triangle Berea bro 3 sound really good.
Jay, as far as the tube connectors go it’s not just about the copper. Danny is making a point about removing mass from the connections especially if that mass is brass or worse, magnetic material.
I thought the reason manufacturers didn’t use pure copper connectors was that they are subject to oxidation over time that would degrade the connection at some point.
@@donalddietz4755 pure copper is an excellent conductor, however it makes for a poor (traditional) connector. It is not very springy, so it is easy to deform the material. For a pure copper banana, it's so soft that (depending on the design) it can easily lose the pressure required for a quality connection. Tube connectors design their way around this limitation. This is why most bananas are brass (more springy) or even steel (gold covered even). Brass and copper will oxidize in normal humidity, so unless you want to frequently de oxidize / clean them it's a good idea to add a more stable surface. A thin gold or rhodium plating shouldn't do much damage to tge electrical qualities, so I suspect/assume that the tubes from Danny are gold plated as well.
There shouldn't be much of a difference between measuring with MLS software or measuring in an anechoic chamber. MLS removes the reflections, the size of the room determines the time window and therefore the lowest possible frequency one can measure without reflections. The frequency lies somewhere between 200 - 350hz (depending on room size), which is low enough for designing proper cross-over circuits. Most stuff below 200hz can be simulated quiet well since the cabinet's "shape" doesn't interfere that much with these low frequencies. I use this method for all of my designs. I know there's some negativity around GR Research and I know Danny can be pretty direct in his communication but I must say that I agree with a lot of what he has to say. Btw. I have experience with designing loudspeaker for about 35 years, I've build stuff for home audio, studio monitors and instrument / PA loudspeakers.
I probably missed it, but if the GR Research cable has tube connectors and the AliExpress one has banana plugs, how did you test them on the same speakers?
Are you sure that polarity markings on the cheaper cables was correct? Had someone fitted a red connector on the end of one core and a black connector on the other end of the same core? Is it possible that as a result your speakers were out of phase?
Great video Jay. But beware of one important fact: the Miflex KPCU caps which Danny used in this crossover, do need a extreme long burnin time to really shine. I've also used the same caps in the crossover of my Kef Reference, and they are great! But let them run for at least 600 hours... A very good Friend of mine also bought the same XL-S Encore speakers with the upgraded crossover. After a extensive burnin time, they are fantastic. Very open and with great layering of the soundstage. I hope you enjoy them too, Kind regards, Nico den Haak.
600 hundred hours to sound right? Crazy times man... Your ears do also adjust as familiarity increases, like with anything that becomes more familiar. In other words your hearing system also "burns" in.
@@gregorymorrill7558 i think it's the second option when it comes to burning in, meaning the brain gets more familiar with new sound. If someone claims other burning, then I suggest change of pills ;)
Capacitors need burn in time to really shine....🤣🤣🤣 Sorry my guy but you are a fool. Please show or post test/measurements showing caps sound different after XXX amount of hours. I'll wait.
No, its the whole cable that's making the difference, not just the connectors. Whoever made the cheap cable used the same mesh that holds everything together. Anyone can buy that stuff. What's inside the cable is what really matters. That's why most of the well established cable manufacturers don't use off the shelf materials like that because counterfeiting is a huge problem.
I bought the raw bare cable and striped all 24 strains, inside the mesh looks legit. Can not tell if it’s 100% copper or not, but definitely heard a different making the switches from Canare 4s11 cable to this aliexpress I bought $120 bare cable for 20 ft.
Danny may chime in as well but in regard to the composite material that the woofer frames are made from, that is by design. Danny likes that they are non-resonant and they are also surprisingly strong. He had a picture of one of his drag cars driving over one at some point I believe and they didn’t break. Looking forward to watching more as you continue to listen to them, especially the blind A/B tests.
My take on this is he cheaped out where it didn't degrade the performance. Which is a good thing. I wonder if these drivers are the standard ones or ones that he's using due to supply chain issues, they do look a little different. Could be presented a little better with less cheap plastic.
@@jwilson086 he doesn't know that, and if anyone wants metal frames they are very cheap to manufacture, actually composites have come a long, long way in the 2 decades, and in some case are more expensive to manufacture.
@@mcjonner they are manufactured and customized per his specifications. Even down to the dust cap, he tested several different versions/shapes and chose this one because it sounded best.
I think it's about finding drivers that are predictable and perform in a way that is controllable and complementary to each other so that the crossover point is smooth and natural. Many times excessively overdesigned drivers use exotic cone materials like ceramic or magnesium, or other metals that may be stiff and pistonic, BUT ring like bells! Crossovers can only do so much to control such bad behavior, and it just adds complexity and additional expense to the overall design to control the "high tech" overbuilt drivers that may look better, weigh more, but also cost more too. These are not "cost no object" speakers...they are engineered to perform way above their price point when compared to other speakers. I hope Jay reviews them with that in mind.
The connectors and the damping from the added core that Danny adds.....can make all the difference in the world. Remove the connectors from the Ali cables and twist all the bare wires together and cram them in the jacks on the amp and speaker......it will sound worlds better.....then put the same core into the middle of the cables and listen again. Not saying the wire is identical.....but if it is.....connectors and damping can make a ton of difference.....everything makes a difference.
Shows how we can watch the same video and comprehend different things. He didn't say he like the speakers. He said it's unique.. Unique doesn't mean like.
Could the cheaper cables be incorrectly marked to be out of phase? That would explain why such a big difference in low end if it turned out to be the case.
Hi Jay can you unscrew/remove the plug casing of the AliExpress banana to check if all 12 strands are in-use per plug?? It is pretty normal for the sweat shop labor to just strip/use less conductors and use heat shrink/etc. to hide it from outside. (This happens with a lot of multistrand twisted headphone cable from China.) Also I believe there is nothing being inserted into the AliExpress cable center as dielectric VS GR inserted 1/2" cotton rope into the cable. Please confirm too if you can. Thanks.
I look forward to your comparison with blue jean and other commercial cables. I was thinking to buy the GR research cables to replace my DIY cables and am interested in your impressions.
The Bluejeans speaker cable sounds like junk even compared to high strand count bloody Amazon basics zipcord because it's a low strain count cheap copper cable with very high capacitance that was not even designed for audio use.
Interesting, A year later I come across this on Canada Weekend. What ever happened to Totem? Don’t hear much about them for awhile. The cable comparison must be making the cheap audio types, climb the walls.
So am I missing something? Wouldn't the Paradigm speakers need to be able to accept a set of tube connector speaker cable ends as well a set of 5way binding post speaker cable ends in order to A/B the same set of speakers with those two cable types? 🤔
@@Jayiyagi @Jay's iyagi I see. Yeah, it may have gotten to be too much to send the Paradigms to @Danny Richie to have a set of tube connectors installed in a way that would allow a more direct comparison between tube connector (male/female) versus 5-way binding post (male/female...pick your favorite among spade, banana or bare wire). I wonder what that comparison might reveal? 🤔🤔 BTW, I'm a fan since your Audio Excellence Canada days!
I still roll my eyes when someone says "you should measure the cable" like they're going to be able to measure the improved separation and depth between instruments and larger more 3D soundstage. Do cables matter? Not to the guy with a $350 dollar receiver, entry level speakers and a closed mind! But some people just want to be right, they have no real interest in trying things and improving their system. Thank you for the honest review Jay, keep the great videos coming!
At least someone figured it out. The only goal of the cable deniers is to make an argument. It has nothing to do with music or the equipment its played on. The argument is the goal. If you want to see something unbelievable, I figured out a way to shut them down. So far its worked 100% of the time. Just ask them this simple question. "What should be measured, and why?". That's it. Stops them dead in their tracks every time. I've asked this exact same question literally hundreds of times, and they refuse to answer it.
@@AT-wl9yq Measure the signal at beginning of cable and end of cable. Cables can degrade the sound due to improper use, but cables that measure the same will not improve the sound. What should be measured and why? Voltage, resistance, capacitance. Low-Q resonances of 0.3 dB magnitude can be audible. So no, there is no shutting down, it just sounds like you don't understand the physics or the measurements or how they relate to sound. If you want more proof, use an Audio Analyzer to measure Level, FR, THD + N, Phase, Crosstalk, SNR. Use a digital scope with rise time in ns. Whether one measurement sounds better than the other doesn't make any difference, as that is different for every single person. How electrons move through conductors should be taught to everyone. But I know, science is a bitch and not understanding is even easier. BTW open up all of your electronics and look at the interconnects inside. How do you think it's even remotely possible to get good sound out of those without fancy wires? Maybe do some reading on Bill Whitlock's papers.
Nice work, Jay. I enjoyed watching your review, especially about the speaker cables as I have been waffling on purchasing these. I spent much more money on cables which I like but I think I will buy a pair of these now. thanks
Let's see if you can consistently differentiate between the two cables in a blind A/B test. That is the only test that can be truly taken as credible and significant.
@@Jayiyagi Jay, thanks for the very informative video. I am really interested to see the results of your A/B test. To provide as much information as possible I would also like to know if there is any measurable electrical difference between the two cables at the speaker terminals associated with the sonic differences. Please don't just pre-suppose there will be no measurable difference. If there is a measurable difference, that would be most informative. If there is no measurable difference that would be very interesting.
Hi Jay, yes Danny could have worded his video with a bit less intensity , but I get what he was saying in regards to a good room to let one hear a speaker to it’s fullest . My old loft in Montreal was a great sounding room and a mid hi system sounded better than hi end in a small bad room. System was, Vandersteen 5, vtl 150 power amp, Aesthetix preamp and more. Thanks for sharing you listening experience.
Interesting! Thanks, Jay. I don't think there is any doubt that the speaker cables are the exact same. It does state on the Ali website that they are in fact Teflon dielectric and uses OCC copper - same as Danny's. I think the difference you are hearing is (1) the cotton rope Danny uses results in more consistent conductor separation and spacing which does affect sound quality (2) the connectors - where Danny's are lower mass copper and lower mass (less metal) sounds better AND (3) Danny likely fully broke those in before sending to you, possibly on a cable cooker, which is undoubtedly going to sound better than a fresh pair of cables. If Ali is not lying in their description they are in fact OCC copper (that's high quality copper - better than OFC) and it uses Teflon dielectric jacketing.
Jay - you go to great pains to demonstrate your impartiality - to your credit.You're right to suggest that a manufacturer's material claims should be validated. Disclaimer: I am in no way suggesting or implying GR is guilty of any misrepresentation, it's just a pertinent topic. My younger brother (the audiophile in the family) bought a set of high-end speaker cables for his Vandersteen's from a high-end audio dealer in California that made their own cables. Claim was that the wire had a high silver content and was cryogenically treated. They called it 'Supernal' wire. He sent me (the skeptical engineer) a small sample of the wire portion. It looked like stainless steel to me. I put a magnet to it... and you guessed it! Magnetic! Buyer beware. For anyone who says 'stainless is not magnetic', that is true for autsenitic stainless, but ferritic stainless is magnetic. I don't know what the speaker wire was made of, but it had to have iron in it to be magnetic.
Jay, First of all, thanks for your continued efforts and sharing your fingings with us. This is all very interesting. Can you provide the contact for the cabinet shop that you used for the GR Research build? I want to have a pair of cabinets made from birch ply as you have done here. Also, have you given any thought of trying the JBL 4309 2-way horn loaded bookshelf monitor? Thanks again...take care and get well. Best regards, John
You mentioned that the tube connector from GR are larger than banana plugs. How did you connect them effectively to the Paradyms for your cable comparison? Thanks
Hey Jay, I understand your impression about the woofers but you are wrong. Peerless has kind of a reputation for building the crappiest woofer baskets, they are terrible you are correct, but they also have a reputation for building absolutely great membranes and good spiders/surrounds. They look cheap but they sound awesome and it is very hard to find a driver as good for 5 times the price. If you want the same sound quality you can easily pay like 200-400$. So my tip is, be open to the sound, don't judge it by eye.
How about the entry line of SB Acoustics. These also have plastic basket (nothing wrong with it if designed correctly). Both have basic motor w/o Faraday rings.
The way a speaker looks matters. I understand too that appearance can have some subjectivity. These speakers are so cheaply designed though from an astheatic perspective. The design (astheatic design) is part of the quality and skill of speaker design. Even if it is over priced by many manufacturers, at least they understand the importance of that aspect of the product. It may make no technical difference on the sound but it can make a difference on how the speaker makes you feel. And in turn, how you feel about the sound. This may not be true for everyone but I think it is for many.
Nice vid. I really favor the A to B blind comparisons. It may seem harsh but ultimately we all want to know what's best and who we can depend on for quality products. I don't listen to music in a chamber so I don't care about that. I'm more interested in how they sound in your day to day listening room.
I have 15' blue jeans cables which I swapped out for 7' cables (another reputable man.) and the thing I noticed was a bit less extension/emphasis in the treble. Not big but I noticed and I live with it. Didn't note any difference in lows-mids.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
Links for your reference (Non-affiliate)
GR-Research XLS Encore: gr-research.com/product/x-ls-encore/
GR-Research DIY speaker cables: gr-research.com/product/24-strand-diy-audiophile-speaker-cable/
Aliexpress Speaker cables: www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001933248840.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.21ef1802i6K7JE
Related videos:
Danny at GR-Research made a video and it Is Elitist and Delusional: ruclips.net/video/zxlUYfpxNMY/видео.html
Jay I consider you one of the most important audio reviewers for two reasons. You are young and you took the time to listen to a very large sample of high end and vintage gear before you really ramped up your review channel. Most reviewers at any age have relatively small sample sizes of the gear they have actually listen to. They don't know what they don't know. As a 60 year old audio guy I think it's critical to high end audio that younger enthusiast like yourself carry this forward. But I would suggest your read on Danny was misplaced. He basically invited all camps to join him and see were it would lead. Sure it came off as arrogant but when you get older you find less time to sugar coat your thoughts. When I look at the room treatments, good quality speaker stands, audio platforms and other things you are using it would seem to me that you and Danny are totally aligned. So why would Danny send his cable or speakers to some reviewer that did not believe any of these things matter. Yet you interpreted his bluntness as a personal insult. This also seems to be motivating you to hyper scrutinize any claim GR makes at a level you don't seem to do with any other manufacturer.
@@theaterboyeBay thanks for the comment. I do not have any intentions to hyper criticize anything. I just wish to thoroughly check the claims as I am personally interested. Many are also curious as Danny does put out many claims out there. I told Danny in an email that I will be fair in the assessment of his product and he said that he trusted me to do just that. I have no interest in betraying that trust and the trust of the viewers JUST to discredit or take a shot at Danny.
I’m here for audio and I will stay true to that fact and passion.
Thanks !
@@Jayiyagi Watched a bunch of Jay's reviews. Was anticipating this one, having actually heard a cheap (non upgraded) sample. Best speaker ever?!? No not exactly. Super impressed for the parts and price. Yes hard to beat.
After the podcast and back and forth, this introduction and feedback in the comments is not surprising. What I believe stands out to people that have seen Jay in action is that he is overly eager to find avenues to discredit GR's creation. Measuring the purity of the connection, getting the accuracy through 3rd parties. I'm all for it, but he has not ever come close to considering doing this to his retail reviews (nor the CSS)
It feels like you got the horse before the carriage and now you try to save face. If you would have only have approached this initial view as all your videos.... Hard to go back from here..
Danny is an A$$ calling people out. He comes across very arrogant, but clearly provides great value for Sound in the DIY market. With Jay coming in hurt and tainted does not help anyone.
@@mr.t.7477 GR Research makes a lot of claims including the connectors’ purity. If CSS Audio made the same claims or something similar - I would have been interested to check it out.
I have no interest in discrediting GR-Research.
And I am doing a Blind A/B precisely for people like you that are on the fence about me coming in “tainted” or “biased”
Cheers.
What’s the difference between an elitist and an expert? What did Danny say that was delusional?
I have recently gotten into designing and building my own speakers and I like learning as much as I can on the subject. What I don’t care about is “drama”, so I really appreciate you taking a professional approach to this review. For people like me, a speaker I get to build myself is actually a good thing, not a bad thing. I get for others that it is definitely a bad thing to have to build the speaker, but I like to be able to make things my own (picking my own paint color or wood finish).
I have also been building speakers since the 70s. But then I was just putting drivers in boxes and designing crossovers (like most speakers). If I just did that now, I would only build one set. But cos I don't just do that, I have built several sets in the last few years and I'm going to probably end up selling some.
The concept is a med/treble open driver mounted on top of the box (either FR or coaxial driver) and a 10" woofer in the box. I have some AU $2,400 B&W 706 bookshelf speakers (to get an idea of how a speaker should sound).
My made speakers completely smoke the B&Ws! Yet the B&Ws do help a lot (especially with bass that varies in the room with my movement). And they improved my speaker hobby immensely! Yet I don't like them, with a slightly "muffly" voice sound. But (really) that's a minor detail, generally, a reference of the bass, med, and treble levels is what really helps me. That's the important thing! Recommended if you haven't got a soundproof room and all that gear. So I make my made speakers sound a bit different but not too different and mine sound way better, for me, at least.
They are dipole with the sound coming out the back as well as the front. They sound like panel speakers and the med is incredibly clean, compared to normal speakers (not one sour notes on mine). But it's till hard to get it but not as hard as normal speakers.And if there is any echo in a recording, you are going to hear it! You are in with the band! And being point source as well as dipole, it's holographic off the scale, sounds come from nowhere! 😂
Put a woofer in a box with a big inductor on it and a 5" Tang Band or Fostex FR driver mounted on top of the box (sloped back so it's not so in your face). You can use Blue Tack for temporary mounting solution. I use zip ties and eye hooks. 😂 I tried the setup with no crossover filter on the 5" FR and sounds good, but a 100 mf cap on it is recommended for more power handling and that gives more bass for the woofer. If you are like me and want the best sound, you can make a crossover filter for the FR. I use AU $9 FR and they need the highs to be kicked up, with a 2 mf cap and a small resistor iñ parallel with it (to make it simple). But I go full out and have a few parts on the 5" open driver (including an inductor for less upper med). Definitely well worth a try, they sound hi end (especially with a large woofer). More impact.
A direct comparison for a kit of this expense is the CSS Criton TD-1.
Peerless / Vifa / Scanspeak have been making great performing and cost effective speakers drivers for a long time. The 1st set that I built 51 years ago used a 5" Peerless mid-woofer and a Audax dome tweeter and had not one of my kids decided that the domes should be flat I would probably still be using them. My 75 year old ears that spent 15 months on an M60 main battle tank are not that discerning and anything above 12,000 hz is fiction to me. The quality (not good or bad) of sound that I prefer comes from soft dome tweeters and paper woofers. I can't wait for the review.
Thank you for your service brother. RVN,70-71-72.
@@gotchagoing8843 - Same to you brother, Hoo Yaa
I thought peerless were some of the best in the business. I have a set of ne 180 woofers that were designed by the same people that did the scan speak woofers. They feel light because they use neodymium magnets. Very light but extremely strong magnets.
I’m with you, my $16k speakers use Audax 1.5in soft dome tweeters Scanspeak titanium super tweeters and paper woofers , exceptional sounding. I don’t think Jay realizes the quality drivers these companies actually make and probably many speakers he’s liked used those brands. Keep on keeping on brother , 20yr US Army Retired.
Hey brother, love the tank guys. 5th SFG
Jay, this investigative approach is fantastic. This is a great direction to go in. I look forward the findings. Keep up the good work!
Hope he does it with all the speakers he reviews!
@@five5ix56 Ah! that's the concern, why with these speakers when he has not done this with any other bookshelf speakers that he has reviewed.
Well they have become mates, so we will see. The cables won’t make any difference, so he can not bother with them. Send them straight back.
@@cruise2023 correction. I have
@@r423fplip So you don't believe either Jay or his camera man when they said they heard a distinct improvement with the GR cables?
Thanks for the video Jay. I look forward to the blind A/B testing and the measurements. I like the test plan and look forward to your honest opinion. It's nice to see someone willing to put their personal feelings aside and let the speaker and the numbers/traces fall where they may. I must admit I own a pair of XLS Encores mainly because I like the way they sound and I like building myself when I can. I am interested in the comparison between the CSS Audio 1TDX crossover to Danny's. I know Danny's Encore is a DIY point-to-point lay it out yourself crossover. Not necessarily the easiest task for the non-technical guys. Haven't seen the CSS but I am curious. Glad you are feeling better. Keep the videos coming and I'll keep watching.
honest ?
Interesting. I'm looking for the follow-up vid to this one, but can't see it.....??
Hi Jay Love your Chanel, I have used the Ali-express cables for a while and did a small video about them on my Chanel Something must be wrong with these Cables some possibilities to check
1) Mislabeled polarity
2) Not all the strands are soldered in the termination sometimes they are sloppy. I suggest cutting the banana plugs out and use the bare wire
3) A bad example of Ali-express cable check that each strand is about 0.75 mm in diameter (0.03 inch) the total of each 12 strands (not 24) bare copper should be 3.5mm. (0.14 inch)
Each strand should be made of multiple thin strands not solid
4) Bad connection with the speakers not tight enough accidental polarity swap.
5) May be stuffing the cable with a rope ( like GR shows how to do it) , does make a difference I would try that at the end.
Very Curious how it goes I would really hate to have to buy his Cables we must find the secret :)
I had built GR-Research NX-Studio with all the Crossover upgrades (I upgraded the Mills to Path Audio Resistors). After 300hrs of running...these are Opening up really nicely. The tube connecters I had trashed as they had corrosion inside of female end. I used WBT Binding Posts and to be frank...$60 Tube Connecters look and are built like $10. Enjoy your review and keep it going!!!
We have not seen that before. If that is the case you could have sent them back and had them replaced. Using the WBT's was a hit to the performance compared to what you would have gotten with the tube connectors.
@@dannyrichie9743 Please post test data to support your claim about "a hit to performance"
So you said a tube connection and a banana plug are different in size, in your video, how did you plug the GR cables into a paradigm speaker then?
By using the tube connector just like spades
I think the simpler reason that Danny doesn't measure below 200Hz is pragmatic: in order to eliminate room reflections the measurement software takes maximum 5ms "slices" of sound, which means that anything lower that that frequency can't be measured as you're not even capturing a full wave. As far as I know anyway.
The main reason is in room response will be entirely based on your room. To measure below 200hz you need anechoic/outdoor/spinorama measurements
I have been building audio gear as a hobby for quite some time, I have built the XLS Encores and like you I found the drive construction to be underwhelming especially the woofer. Regardless of that they do fit my ear as well. They are very clear and the detail is very good. I think what makes them is the tweeter. It is very crisp and clear but not fatiguing. I would really like to see better quality drivers but hey they sound good and they do the job so that's all that matters.
Look forward to your next vid on these.!!
If there is a massive difference between those cables, a measurement system will surely pick it up. I would love to see what's really going on here.
absolutely nothing
@@hurkamur1 that’s some compelling evidence you’re presenting there.
Ok when are we going to see a comparison to the CSS Criton 1TD-X? You've given very high praise to the Criton in the past. I bought the Criton kit based on your review and a few others. I have not built them yet but am looking forward to it.
I finished my Criton 1TDX (with x-over upgrade) about 2 months ago and they continue to impress with every listen! They are all of what Jay has already said. I think the Encore’s are going to be less meaty in the bass texture and a bit more challenging to assemble for the novice. That CSS kit is just fantastic for the beginner. The soldering is very easy to understand and the box is easy to build! Good luck with yours!
I really appreciate the way you handled the "Danny situation."
how do the GR cables and the ali cables measure as far as resistance/capacitance/inductance? something seems fishy about the aliexpress. i'd love to see a number that can be correlated with the cable and why it might sound different.
About the speaker cables: It's either the connectors or the core. GR uses a thick rope as a core to stretch the cable and make individual wires cross at a larger angle. Lefthand rule: less interference. Put a rope core in the Aliexpress cable, change the connectors over and find out.
You’re right, although I understand that Danny slides a PTFE tube as a core. This is available from aliexpress and adds about 20% to the cost of the cable overall. I know because I did it. No idea how mine sound against the GR Research cables, obviously, however, my cables were a significant upgrade over my old plain copper cables.
The higher gauge wires almost always sound as if the sound was fuller and a bit more bass wass added. It's not night and day difference, but it's noticeable. The same thing happens when someone upgrades crossover inductors in the woofer circuit from 16ga to say 12ga, but even 14ga inductor with it's 60% impedance of the 16ga makes a measurable difference during freq sweep on woofer's connectors. Generally the total series impedance of wires and crossover shouldn't be more than 15% of the woofers impedance.
You forgot about the copper: The best is Pure OFC. The Aliexpress cable are probably made of cheaper copper mixed with other metal(s). Insulating material is probably different too.
@@guyboisvert66 I have some on the way and it is better than OFC copper, it is OCC copper. Those cables sure look thicker than I'd prefer, but i'll see. I have 10-gauge right now and I don't want to go any lower. It was hard to do the math to figure out what gauge these Ali's were and the seller could not convert the size for me either... I had the 24 core.
erm that is not at all a thing at this low frequencies. but ok. sounds really interesting.
A lot of electrical cable made in China is aluminium based with copper plating. Of course, on must remember that high frequency is conducted on the surface of a conductor and if the Chinese cable only have a few microns of copper plate over the conductor then obviously the character will be a lot different to a solid copper cable. Chinese wire is also mostly hard drawn, which is different than an annealed copper or a single crystalline cable. So yes you are correct in saying a cable is not the same if its construction and material used is not the same, at higher frequencies this does come into play.
Luckily the majority of speaker cable isn’t copper clad
If you look not too hard online you will find a website that publishes the measurements of Chinese knockoff Kimber 12TC and & they measure near identical. Difference would be impossible to detect
Dude, you really should spend some time on the DIY forums, and read the books and magazines for DIY'ers, learn what's what.
Ask Danny what rope to buy at your local home center and thread it thru your Ali Express cable, see if that makes them more sonically equal to the GR-R cable. It should. With a braided or twisted cable, the closer to 90º X intersections of the braid strands and the more air (space) between strands the better the sound will be, that is the reason for Danny threading rope thru the center of his cable.
Re Tube Connecters. I feel Danny didn't tell you the whole story. it's not just that they are pure copper (pure Silver would be better), plenty of pure copper binding posts on the market, it is the lack of metal that makes them good. Minimal metal will be better than a huge chunk of machined copper binding posts. Think WBT Nextgen, and Eichmann binding post. Also, you're wasting your time with the jeweler, if Danny says they are pure copper believe him. If you want to nitpick send it to a metallurgist for grain structure and purity testing.
Anyway, they say nothing good happens between 2am and 7am, and it's almost 4am now so that's all you're going to be getting out of me on this, I don't feel like proofreading and backing up statements with the science behind them at this hour, sorry.
Peace.
Good knowledgeable advice here.
Woofer weight is a myth.
Some manufactures ADD weight to their woofers (especially rampant in car audio). In reality, if the woofer is well designed and the materials are well chosen, the weight is not often relevant, not like people assume. Big magnets are like big car engines: something already went wrong when you need excess power. Make your car (or speaker) lighter, and you can get around the track faster (accelerate faster).
Woofers don't take corners. You can only make an rough analogy to acceration and braking. Reality is that motor strength is very important, especially in the woofer of a 2-way speaker that is tasked with handling some deep bass and thus making some pretty deep excursions.
The approach you are taking on this review is nice. It’s good to see you are giving Danny Ritchie and GR Research a fair shot. They have been around for a long time, and they are very knowledgeable on everything that can impact the signal path and sound. I look forward to your review of their speaker and cable comparison against Blue Jeans, which I currently use.
Still pretty happy with the CopperColour you recommended a little ways back. My money will be on the CSS over the GR but interested to see the blind test. Thanks Jay!
Jay? Did you burn in the Aliexpress speaker cables before you did any serious comparative listening? I noticed you didn't say. But, some of use would like to know if the cables were burned in first (in my experience about a week's worth of playing before any serious listening).
When your camera guy described the difference in sound, the increase in bass and presence, it sounded exactly like someone describing an out of phase speaker connection. Might want to make sure the cable ends are labeled correctly, they might be getting hooked up backwards.
Good point. I am particularly good at depicting out of phase but I will do further tests. Thanks !
The wires are color coded so labeling incorrectly is not an issue on both ends.
I built my GR-Research cables. First point it was a fun project. 2 They sound great. End game for speaker cable for me.
So glad to see you give your honest opinion (not that I didn't expect you to - but very commendable). I really like both your channels and I don't like seeing Mommy and Daddy fight. Much respect!
Amir from Audio Science Review should measure Danny’s cables without them plugged in and tell us why they sound better than AliExpress cables.
Hahahaha, that's about as good as his other testing methods and his "reviews", LOL.🤣🤣🤣
Testing equipment can't hear sonic quality.
Another Great video Jay! Great response to Danny's video which I did not appreciate. It was elitist and unnecessary. And I don't appreciate smugness in an audio review either. We certainly don't all agree but we all are in it to share, learn and improve our sound. Love the Ali-express bit too. I find their cables are interesting because them imitate name-brand manufacturers but don't quite get the subtleties. Because they are inexpensive and varied, they are also useful to study sound signatures of cables (even power cables) especially when throwing authentic name brand cables in the mix.
Regarding the woofer driver frame material: it's composite because its 1) mechanically stiff 2) light and 3) non-resonant. Oh, and it doesn't ring, which is probably it's most important attribute. Personally, I don't understand the concern of _what_ something is made of; what matters is _how_ it functions. I'll just add that F1 cars are composite as well. Regarding the cables, one can't draw informed conclusions of a speaker cable simply from what it looks like, the quality of the materials, it's geometry (how it's wound) and the....dielectric (insulator) matter also, and, most importantly all these factors _interact,._ just as Time and Temperature often interact as factors in a chemical reaction. The Ali Express cables likely use PVC for the insulator, which has a notably negative impact on sound qualty, the best-sounding dielectric material is FEP (not Teflon). Again, what matters at the end of the day is how it *functions* (i.e., how it sounds). Regarding the tube connectors, not only is it important they are made of pure copper, but low mass as well. Danny's products are very well thought-out with respect both functionality, but also they're designed to _maximize_ interactions that contribute to functionality and sound quality and _minimize_ deleterious interactions that impact sound quality. The issues I see with almost ALL reviewers* is they approach product functionality from a very simplistic frame of reference: that is, single factors by themselves are responsible for functionality (in this case, audio quality), without giving any consideration to the fact that design factors, materials, and control variables often _interact._ I can tell you that as someone who spent 40 years working as a professional scientist and 10 years as a Design for Six Sigma Master Black Belt, this overly simplistic perspective/viewpoint of single factors, functioning independently by themselves, is almost *never* how the REAL WORLD *works.* (*-they also don't perform any statistically valid measurement systems analysis [MSA], either, in fact, they don't even know what MSA is, but that's a story for another day).
I would love to hear your thoughts of these compared to CSS audio’s products.
Just to let some of the commenters know that the speaker cable is a kit and will be less than half the price posted if you assemble yourself. The price posted includes professional assembly thus getting to that price.
How did you A/B the speaker cables? I thought you mentioned that Danny's Tube Connectors are not compatible with regular binding posts, so how did you connect them to the other speakers?
By using the Tube connectors like spades
You'll do the industry & RUclips audio channels a great service if you indeed complete the tests & comparisons you mention in this video. So eager to see & hear the findings. Great video!
Look at those beautiful solid steel speakers stands in the back, they’re so beautiful but expensive.
If you ever want to hear the rest of Danny's lineup, you are welcome to stop by if you are ever in New-Brunswick. I have upgraded X-statiks, X-Voce center, AVR surrounds, sealed sub for HT and a pair of fully upgraded NX-Oticas with a pair of triple OB subs.
How are x-statiks? They look crazy but amazing! My worry is that you need to pull them out 3 ft minimum right? I'd love to hear your opinion of those speakers, cheers. Frank
Ok, I watched the whole thing twice. Good job Jay. Overall a fair initial first impression. I am glad you are able to put aside personal issues and just stick to the sound! I have enjoyed your reviews, especially of the Doge gear! Cheers and happy Canada Day from Northern California. 😁
I want to know how that speaker stacks up against the triangle Berea bro 3 ?
Those cables are not worth $500 sorry. That speaker from gr research cost how much and it has a $40 woofer in it really.
I'm real curious because those triangle Berea bro 3 sound really good.
How are you comparing a set of cables with tube connectors vs a set with banana plugs on a speaker that only takes one type?
Using the tube connectors like spades
@@Jayiyagi Very clever. I'll keep that in mind if I ever come across it.
Jay, as far as the tube connectors go it’s not just about the copper. Danny is making a point about removing mass from the connections especially if that mass is brass or worse, magnetic material.
I thought the reason manufacturers didn’t use pure copper connectors was that they are subject to oxidation over time that would degrade the connection at some point.
@@donalddietz4755 they're gold plated. but if you cut/file into them, they're made from copper.
@@donalddietz4755 pure copper is an excellent conductor, however it makes for a poor (traditional) connector. It is not very springy, so it is easy to deform the material. For a pure copper banana, it's so soft that (depending on the design) it can easily lose the pressure required for a quality connection. Tube connectors design their way around this limitation. This is why most bananas are brass (more springy) or even steel (gold covered even).
Brass and copper will oxidize in normal humidity, so unless you want to frequently de oxidize / clean them it's a good idea to add a more stable surface. A thin gold or rhodium plating shouldn't do much damage to tge electrical qualities, so I suspect/assume that the tubes from Danny are gold plated as well.
@@donalddietz4755 copper but gold plated.
@@donalddietz4755 What causes copper to oxidize are oyxgen atoms in the copper metal. Extremely pure, oxygen-free, copper does not oxidize.
did they do the cable comparison video yet? can someone name the video?
What cables? Any good 12 gauge will do.
You should start out the review video talking like Danny: "Hey, Everrrbody!"
There shouldn't be much of a difference between measuring with MLS software or measuring in an anechoic chamber. MLS removes the reflections, the size of the room determines the time window and therefore the lowest possible frequency one can measure without reflections. The frequency lies somewhere between 200 - 350hz (depending on room size), which is low enough for designing proper cross-over circuits. Most stuff below 200hz can be simulated quiet well since the cabinet's "shape" doesn't interfere that much with these low frequencies. I use this method for all of my designs.
I know there's some negativity around GR Research and I know Danny can be pretty direct in his communication but I must say that I agree with a lot of what he has to say.
Btw. I have experience with designing loudspeaker for about 35 years, I've build stuff for home audio, studio monitors and instrument / PA loudspeakers.
I probably missed it, but if the GR Research cable has tube connectors and the AliExpress one has banana plugs, how did you test them on the same speakers?
I dun see the plywood cabinet option in GR research website, is it a custom made one?
If the difference between the cables is that dramatic, then surely this will show up in measurements?
Are you sure that polarity markings on the cheaper cables was correct? Had someone fitted a red connector on the end of one core and a black connector on the other end of the same core? Is it possible that as a result your speakers were out of phase?
this is good stuff I'm anxious to see the results and the full on review
Great video Jay. But beware of one important fact: the Miflex KPCU caps which Danny used in this crossover, do need a extreme long burnin time to really shine. I've also used the same caps in the crossover of my Kef Reference, and they are great! But let them run for at least 600 hours...
A very good Friend of mine also bought the same XL-S Encore speakers with the upgraded crossover. After a extensive burnin time, they are fantastic. Very open and with great layering of the soundstage.
I hope you enjoy them too,
Kind regards,
Nico den Haak.
600 hundred hours to sound right? Crazy times man... Your ears do also adjust as familiarity increases, like with anything that becomes more familiar. In other words your hearing system also "burns" in.
@@gregorymorrill7558 i think it's the second option when it comes to burning in, meaning the brain gets more familiar with new sound. If someone claims other burning, then I suggest change of pills ;)
Cap burn in....thats great
Capacitors need burn in time to really shine....🤣🤣🤣 Sorry my guy but you are a fool. Please show or post test/measurements showing caps sound different after XXX amount of hours. I'll wait.
Please include comparisons to CSS Audio speakers
I most definitely will but with a disclaimer that the css is more expensive
@@Jayiyagi but but that's not why it sounds better! Nudge nudge wink wink
PS it couldn't possibly be the XBL^2 motor huh huh
the cable might still be the same kind, I think. Just the connectors that make the different in terms of sound. do you think?
No, its the whole cable that's making the difference, not just the connectors. Whoever made the cheap cable used the same mesh that holds everything together. Anyone can buy that stuff. What's inside the cable is what really matters. That's why most of the well established cable manufacturers don't use off the shelf materials like that because counterfeiting is a huge problem.
I bought the raw bare cable and striped all 24 strains, inside the mesh looks legit. Can not tell if it’s 100% copper or not, but definitely heard a different making the switches from Canare 4s11 cable to this aliexpress I bought $120 bare cable for 20 ft.
They are cryo treated
Also how did you connect the cables?
Danny may chime in as well but in regard to the composite material that the woofer frames are made from, that is by design. Danny likes that they are non-resonant and they are also surprisingly strong. He had a picture of one of his drag cars driving over one at some point I believe and they didn’t break.
Looking forward to watching more as you continue to listen to them, especially the blind A/B tests.
It’s cheaper to manufacture. That’s the real reason.
@@JohnLee-db9zt and you know this how?
My take on this is he cheaped out where it didn't degrade the performance. Which is a good thing. I wonder if these drivers are the standard ones or ones that he's using due to supply chain issues, they do look a little different. Could be presented a little better with less cheap plastic.
@@jwilson086 he doesn't know that, and if anyone wants metal frames they are very cheap to manufacture, actually composites have come a long, long way in the 2 decades, and in some case are more expensive to manufacture.
@@mcjonner they are manufactured and customized per his specifications. Even down to the dust cap, he tested several different versions/shapes and chose this one because it sounded best.
Who makes those drivers/tweeters?
I think it's about finding drivers that are predictable and perform in a way that is controllable and complementary to each other so that the crossover point is smooth and natural. Many times excessively overdesigned drivers use exotic cone materials like ceramic or magnesium, or other metals that may be stiff and pistonic, BUT ring like bells! Crossovers can only do so much to control such bad behavior, and it just adds complexity and additional expense to the overall design to control the "high tech" overbuilt drivers that may look better, weigh more, but also cost more too. These are not "cost no object" speakers...they are engineered to perform way above their price point when compared to other speakers. I hope Jay reviews them with that in mind.
Exactly !
The connectors and the damping from the added core that Danny adds.....can make all the difference in the world. Remove the connectors from the Ali cables and twist all the bare wires together and cram them in the jacks on the amp and speaker......it will sound worlds better.....then put the same core into the middle of the cables and listen again. Not saying the wire is identical.....but if it is.....connectors and damping can make a ton of difference.....everything makes a difference.
😂
I love this. thank you for doing it this way!
Maybe i missed them but i cant find the NRC MEASURMENTS. I was really looking forward to independent measurements.
You’re one of the few reviewers that I, me, personally myself have heard that like the Paradigms. 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
They aren’t exactly up my alley in preference but they do some things very interesting
Shows how we can watch the same video and comprehend different things.
He didn't say he like the speakers. He said it's unique.. Unique doesn't mean like.
Could the cheaper cables be incorrectly marked to be out of phase? That would explain why such a big difference in low end if it turned out to be the case.
Could you cut the end of the cheaper cables and run bare wire or get better connectors to see if there is a difference?
24 strands of wire to strip and twist together per end..lots of work but a great idea.
Hi Jay can you unscrew/remove the plug casing of the AliExpress banana to check if all 12 strands are in-use per plug?? It is pretty normal for the sweat shop labor to just strip/use less conductors and use heat shrink/etc. to hide it from outside. (This happens with a lot of multistrand twisted headphone cable from China.)
Also I believe there is nothing being inserted into the AliExpress cable center as dielectric VS GR inserted 1/2" cotton rope into the cable. Please confirm too if you can. Thanks.
I for sure will check
Happy Canada Day Jay!
I look forward to your comparison with blue jean and other commercial cables. I was thinking to buy the GR research cables to replace my DIY cables and am interested in your impressions.
I like this video. Jay is going to be a genuine detective. Look forward to seeing if the Blue Jeans are as good as GR-Research cables.
The Bluejeans speaker cable sounds like junk even compared to high strand count bloody Amazon basics zipcord because it's a low strain count cheap copper cable with very high capacitance that was not even designed for audio use.
Thx Jay, looking forward to part two!
I wonder if the GR cables were broken in and the Aliexpress were not. I heard takes 200 hours..
Interesting, A year later I come across this on Canada Weekend. What ever happened to Totem? Don’t hear much about them for awhile. The cable comparison must be making the cheap audio types, climb the walls.
Compare the cables with basic 4mm copper ones.
Love GR Research!!
You and Danny should do a show together, so you can pick up some of his years of experience.
Very good video! Thanks Jay :)
would be great if you could review a higher end diy speaker such as troels gravesen kit.
That's interesting about the cables, sounds like a fun diy project.
So am I missing something? Wouldn't the Paradigm speakers need to be able to accept a set of tube connector speaker cable ends as well a set of 5way binding post speaker cable ends in order to A/B the same set of speakers with those two cable types? 🤔
I used the tube connector like spades
@@Jayiyagi @Jay's iyagi I see. Yeah, it may have gotten to be too much to send the Paradigms to @Danny Richie to have a set of tube connectors installed in a way that would allow a more direct comparison between tube connector (male/female) versus 5-way binding post (male/female...pick your favorite among spade, banana or bare wire). I wonder what that comparison might reveal? 🤔🤔 BTW, I'm a fan since your Audio Excellence Canada days!
I still roll my eyes when someone says "you should measure the cable" like they're going to be able to measure the improved separation and depth between instruments and larger more 3D soundstage. Do cables matter? Not to the guy with a $350 dollar receiver, entry level speakers and a closed mind! But some people just want to be right, they have no real interest in trying things and improving their system. Thank you for the honest review Jay, keep the great videos coming!
At least someone figured it out. The only goal of the cable deniers is to make an argument. It has nothing to do with music or the equipment its played on. The argument is the goal. If you want to see something unbelievable, I figured out a way to shut them down. So far its worked 100% of the time. Just ask them this simple question. "What should be measured, and why?". That's it. Stops them dead in their tracks every time. I've asked this exact same question literally hundreds of times, and they refuse to answer it.
@@AT-wl9yq Measure the signal at beginning of cable and end of cable. Cables can degrade the sound due to improper use, but cables that measure the same will not improve the sound. What should be measured and why? Voltage, resistance, capacitance. Low-Q resonances of 0.3 dB magnitude can be audible. So no, there is no shutting down, it just sounds like you don't understand the physics or the measurements or how they relate to sound. If you want more proof, use an Audio Analyzer to measure Level, FR, THD + N, Phase, Crosstalk, SNR. Use a digital scope with rise time in ns. Whether one measurement sounds better than the other doesn't make any difference, as that is different for every single person. How electrons move through conductors should be taught to everyone. But I know, science is a bitch and not understanding is even easier. BTW open up all of your electronics and look at the interconnects inside. How do you think it's even remotely possible to get good sound out of those without fancy wires? Maybe do some reading on Bill Whitlock's papers.
Nice work, Jay. I enjoyed watching your review, especially about the speaker cables as I have been waffling on purchasing these. I spent much more money on cables which I like but I think I will buy a pair of these now. thanks
The guy at GR designs great crossovers
Celebrate freedom! 🍁
Love your brothers and sisters.
Nothing is impossible when we work together.
Great job Jay, I love that you embrace the scientific method!
Did I see a Luxman M-10X in the background?
Let's see if you can consistently differentiate between the two cables in a blind A/B test. That is the only test that can be truly taken as credible and significant.
Up and coming for sure. This was just an initial impression
@@Jayiyagi Jay, thanks for the very informative video. I am really interested to see the results of your A/B test. To provide as much information as possible I would also like to know if there is any measurable electrical difference between the two cables at the speaker terminals associated with the sonic differences. Please don't just pre-suppose there will be no measurable difference. If there is a measurable difference, that would be most informative. If there is no measurable difference that would be very interesting.
It may be that the spacing (fiber?) that is inside the cable is what is making the difference?
GR Research is making a minimum of $700 per pair of these speakers. The markup is insane.
Ha, guess again. We work off of really low margins and high volume.
So were those cheaper cables fully broken in?
Hi Jay, yes Danny could have worded his video with a bit less intensity , but I get what he was saying in regards to a good room to let one hear a speaker to it’s fullest . My old loft in Montreal was a great sounding room and a mid hi system sounded better than hi end in a small bad room. System was, Vandersteen 5, vtl 150 power amp, Aesthetix preamp and more. Thanks for sharing you listening experience.
Interesting! Thanks, Jay. I don't think there is any doubt that the speaker cables are the exact same. It does state on the Ali website that they are in fact Teflon dielectric and uses OCC copper - same as Danny's. I think the difference you are hearing is (1) the cotton rope Danny uses results in more consistent conductor separation and spacing which does affect sound quality (2) the connectors - where Danny's are lower mass copper and lower mass (less metal) sounds better AND (3) Danny likely fully broke those in before sending to you, possibly on a cable cooker, which is undoubtedly going to sound better than a fresh pair of cables. If Ali is not lying in their description they are in fact OCC copper (that's high quality copper - better than OFC) and it uses Teflon dielectric jacketing.
Put down the crack pipe
Breaking in cables are the biggest load of shit under the sun. Ask any engineer. Your statement is truly complete rubbish!
Also easy enough to run both sets of cables to make sure their broken in. Then there's no doubt about a level playing field.
Great job!
Jay - you go to great pains to demonstrate your impartiality - to your credit.You're right to suggest that a manufacturer's material claims should be validated. Disclaimer: I am in no way suggesting or implying GR is guilty of any misrepresentation, it's just a pertinent topic. My younger brother (the audiophile in the family) bought a set of high-end speaker cables for his Vandersteen's from a high-end audio dealer in California that made their own cables. Claim was that the wire had a high silver content and was cryogenically treated. They called it 'Supernal' wire. He sent me (the skeptical engineer) a small sample of the wire portion. It looked like stainless steel to me. I put a magnet to it... and you guessed it! Magnetic! Buyer beware. For anyone who says 'stainless is not magnetic', that is true for autsenitic stainless, but ferritic stainless is magnetic. I don't know what the speaker wire was made of, but it had to have iron in it to be magnetic.
Is it possible for our friends at Audio
Excellence Canada to have a listen to these? Maybe they like more than the Buchart’s?
Who is Audio Excellence Canada? Never heard of them.
Jay,
First of all, thanks for your continued efforts and sharing your fingings with us. This is all very interesting. Can you provide the contact for the cabinet shop that you used for the GR Research build? I want to have a pair of cabinets made from birch ply as you have done here. Also, have you given any thought of trying the JBL 4309 2-way horn loaded bookshelf monitor?
Thanks again...take care and get well.
Best regards, John
You mentioned that the tube connector from GR are larger than banana plugs.
How did you connect them effectively to the Paradyms for your cable comparison?
Thanks
Hey. I connected the tube connectors the same way I would connect a spade.
Hey Jay, I understand your impression about the woofers but you are wrong. Peerless has kind of a reputation for building the crappiest woofer baskets, they are terrible you are correct, but they also have a reputation for building absolutely great membranes and good spiders/surrounds. They look cheap but they sound awesome and it is very hard to find a driver as good for 5 times the price. If you want the same sound quality you can easily pay like 200-400$. So my tip is, be open to the sound, don't judge it by eye.
How about the entry line of SB Acoustics. These also have plastic basket (nothing wrong with it if designed correctly). Both have basic motor w/o Faraday rings.
Plastic is fine
I would like Danny to design an open baffle large dual 10" speaker kit like Sapphire M3's for under 1000" :)
Do you still have the Buchardt S400 MkIIs to include in your comparison?
The way a speaker looks matters. I understand too that appearance can have some subjectivity. These speakers are so cheaply designed though from an astheatic perspective. The design (astheatic design) is part of the quality and skill of speaker design. Even if it is over priced by many manufacturers, at least they understand the importance of that aspect of the product. It may make no technical difference on the sound but it can make a difference on how the speaker makes you feel. And in turn, how you feel about the sound. This may not be true for everyone but I think it is for many.
Nice vid. I really favor the A to B blind comparisons. It may seem harsh but ultimately we all want to know what's best and who we can depend on for quality products. I don't listen to music in a chamber so I don't care about that. I'm more interested in how they sound in your day to day listening room.
How much did they cost??
THERE THEY ARE !!!!!
I have 15' blue jeans cables which I swapped out for 7' cables (another reputable man.) and the thing I noticed was a bit less extension/emphasis in the treble. Not big but I noticed and I live with it. Didn't note any difference in lows-mids.
I like where you’re going with this. Meet a manufacturer where they are coming from, not to be combative but to be fair.