TheViper talks about T90 talking about Farms
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- Опубликовано: 5 май 2024
- Watch the original video here: • T90 Talks Farms
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TheViper | Professional Age of Empires 2 Definitive Edition Player for GamerLegion | Sponsored by Re-Bo 
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I've spent more time listening to people talk about auto-farm than auto-farm will ever save me
Can relate.
like working at a corporate. Spend more time discussing how something should be done and especially who has to do it than the time it takes to do it.
@@daarom3472 true story ahaha
@@daarom3472 True, sad reality is that they are saying how things should be done, but nobody actually does it.
Then Hera: "Hera talks about TheViper talks about T90 talking about Farms
Daut: GL talks about T90 talking about Farms
@@user-hy3ch6jw1nno, daut talking about how much more time you can spend on market because of auto farming :D
At 1.25x
Keep it up, it’ll become talking about farms all the way down
Then MbL making a "MbL talks about Hera talks about TheViper talks about T90 talking abouy farms": WHY NOT MAKE THE GAME AUTOPLAY?! 😠
Viper: "i don't think farming is fun, fishing tho..."
Placing perfectly positioned fish traps is surely satisfying
Devs: We have made auto fishing
Viper: This is too far.
I think fishing ships should auto place perfect fish traps if resources are available if we are going that route.
The multiple garrison into rams had a 100times bigger impact on the game
agreeed!
"GG well placed farms" has the same energy as "GG well walled" 😂
Yeah I’ve gotten that after resigning a few times. Hit me hard there friend. Hit me hard 😂
Our only hope is to wait for age 5 where you'll have to plant each seed and wait six month for them to grow
And you'll be able to pay a small fee of IRL money to speed up the growth.
Isn't that already a thing with AoE Mobile?
Six months of real time I hope?
I hear that Age 5's development will be lead by Peter Molyneux.
And you have only one seed to start with. You have to harvest further seeds from that initial plant. 200 dollar deluxe edition gives you two seeds to start with.
listen to TheViper at 1.25 speed makes you listen to T90 1.56 speed. It's great! 🙂
aoe 2 HD speed!
I'm listening to T90 at 2.5 speed!
@@JimCullensame 😂
😂
I watched at 0.75 speed so Tristan talked at 94% speed 😂
Surely auto farm replenishment effects the economy more than auto farm placement.
Exactly. Auto-replenishment is another thing, it's the thing of making orders without pre-paying them, which wasn't present in aoe2 before DE. It's the same logic as the auto-producing units in aom.
yeah but why both?
@@TheLastSoundNL Because many people and apparently also the devs think placing/renewing farms is boring and want to focus on more vital parts of the game.
Pop cap increase from 75 to 200 had the biggest impact of any change.
People hated how you could just spam trash at each other back in the day, but he was barely out of diapers when that went down.
@@Orkimtor There is a certain crowd of people who love to just complain about every new addition. Auto-reseed was also met with negativity because it is quite impactful and it actually takes much more time than auto farm placement especially when engaging in fights across the map. Now it's a feature everybody loves. This will be a similar situation. Some people resist any sort of change.
As final end sequel Spirit Of The Law: All the Pro's in a consequtive rank respective list talking about T90 talking about Farms
But with so much data and math.
Also Spirit of the Law did a video analyzing the efficiency of perfect farms vs bad farms, and at the most extreme it was still only a couple percent difference between the two.
Its pretty good that we have multiple people who make a living playing a 1999 game arguing about a patch in 2024
So true!
My man really wants to mess up his farms
Aoe2 kind of is in its core a game about embracing imperfections. You need to sacrifice a lot of perfectionist tendencies to get good at the game.
this is all a cover for what is actually upsetting him, this update's gonna kill his meme 11
T90 talking like this is the first farm simplification that has come to AoE2. Does he not remember there was a time when you had to manually queue new farms to build at the Mill and pay for them in advance to cover when your existing ones expired rather than having them automatically reseed at the time of expiry? The precedent for simplifying farms was already set way back.
You young whippersnapper missed out on AOK where you couldn't even do that. The farms just expired.
I remember a time when you could not even queue new farms at a mill, period!
Oh what glorious time [pre-AoC] of skill expression it was.. NOT!
Since farming is easier now, fishing will become less desirable, therefore increasing the salmon population. I'm sure T90 will change his mind once he realizes this.
Listening to TheViper trying to understand it being hard to place farms is like listening to Usain Bolt trying to understand why people don’t run a sub 10 second 100m.
Lol this is true 😂
T90 has done great things for the community and I respect him for that. However, his opinions on any new change in the game makes him too emotional and unable/unwilling to look at things objectively. Almost every change that has ever happened has been something that T90 thinks is going to destroy the game.
A few examples on the top of my head are - observer in tournaments. He was vehemently against that but Nili pushed for it so much in RB and now it is an expected part of watching experience in tournaments and it makes things much easier for the viewer. Another thing I remember is his point that Hindustani camels are broken and that they destroy buildings extremely fast and villagers are just not able to wall them out. But the truth is that there is one other castle age unit that destroys walls faster - knight. Generic knight that is available to 38 civs.
It also feels like zero trust in the developers that he ends up making strawmen arguments about auto vill queue and eco distribution to try to justify the current opinions.
It's ego and arrogance and a sense of entitlement which I see in a lot of players who advertise themselves as lovers of the game. In effect it really is gatekeeping. I enjoyed T90 streams before he started making a mockery out of low elo players who are trying to have fun.
But would you take it back if they actually do put in auto vill queue?
Also tbh I don't see a problem with it if they did.
1:40
Someone: DONATES MONEY.
TheViper: SHUT UP!
smh 11111
It didn't seem very humble tbh, lol
@Manuchiling he was smiling afterwards it was a bit
T90 boomber. "Villagers nowdays finish the lumber camp and go chop.wood automatically. What a shame"
Exactly right, he sounds just like that. He seems to forget the amount of mundane things we had to do in the early 2000s. You couldn't build the lumber camp and tell vills to chop wood in one command, you had to let them build, wait for them to finish, then put them to chop. You also didn't have farm queues in the mill, nor auto-reseed, you had to manually go to every idle vill on a farm and manually click.
@@somebody700 and I used to play it in PS2. Immagine the "fun"
13:51 *This:* "Economy balance is so much more important than placing farms quickly, or automatically producing villagers. Balancing economy and making strategic decisions is so much more important and if some of that stuff got automated, like automatically keep as many vills on wood for you as you need to produce this amount of units, then we're going too far, because then the game is automating the economy balance." - TheViper
Which is done on xbox, and genuinely it is a good thing for controller. I'm glad pros are sensitive about the difference between lowering entry and skill floor vs skill ceiling.
This is a great example of "reaction out of fear". T90 fears for the game, he can only image the worst case scenarios in the future and therefore is afraid of the unknown future. He lacks any positive belief about the future. Therefore he tries to hold on on the "good old known" stuff that is the opposite of the future. And is willing to let the fear control him instead of truly diving deep and figuring out what this actually is and does to the game.
Vipi on the other hand does not react out of fear and that allows him to see the whole thing from more stable perspective. He acknowledges T90´s points several times but since he is not bound by the fear it allows him to see "over the fear" and look at the mechanic from a broader perspective.
T90 fears for the future of the game. As he himself said many times in the video. Therefore when change comes, it triggers that fear and that fear starts to control him. Vipi does not fear for the future of the game and therefore when change comes, he looks at it for what it truly is.
As we all should.
Nailed it.
T90: "Age2 survived because it was hard"
ME: "No! It surived because its not a star/warcraft mandatory-micro thing - yet if you have good micro it is still very valuable in the long run."
"Great games are easy to pick up and hard to master" - someone from ID software said this too...
wow did he really say that? I am so disappointed.
T90 is right. Now that I have autofarm I can finally beat Hera.
This got me howling
I think what you both agree on is that the game’s complexity makes it fresh, fun, and difficult. I agree with viper that auto farming doesn’t take away from that experience. However, I do think there’s some value in analyzing each of these new features to make sure that the game isn’t getting overly automated. T90 feels this is a step in that direction.
Auto reseed is a far greater automation tool, and nobody says taking away manually seeding farms was better. And that took away far more of your agency- it works just like the auto-vill production mentioned by T-90. I don't mind streamlining the game in ways that take away tasks that are nobrainers- of course you want to reseed farms, of course you want your farms next to the TC or mill, of corse you want your villagers to start collection wood after they build a lumbermill, of course you want villagers to move to the next sheep when they finish the first one.
Autoreseed turned one of the most traumatizing tilting sound into a reminder to slap more wood in my mill. It’s not like they’re trying to add auto house building (but man could you imagine the reaction to that?)
@@deathpawn9 The old version of the game did not have farm queues in the mill either. You had to reseed every farm individually and it sucked. Every single argument T90 made about auto-placement applies in a greater scale to both auto-reseed AND farm queueing. Yet he likes those features, huh? Honestly, this is just negative behavior for the sake of negativity. And there is an underlying tone of gatekeeping involved in making such arguments if we're being honest. "This game should be played THIS WAY AND NO OTHER WAY", F off T90
I can't see any problem with this feature.
Number of farms is still way more important than their exact placement.
the 200IQ player will still take more important things into consideration when placing farms, like walling, elevation, relative location to the enemy etc.
T90 needs to chill. It makes the game more accessible to new players. I have so many friends who won't pick this game up because the amount you have to learn and remember is daunting. The skill ceiling is so high while the skill floor is also pretty high. This feels like it drops the skill floor while doing almost nothing to the ceiling.
Anything that brings in new players and makes it a bit easier to learn and enjoy the game is welcome.
It actually elevates the ceiling more in my opinion, because pro players are able to use those seconds for actual winning plays
I played the game for years in the early 2000s, when HD was released I tried it, then I tried DE again, the reason I did not continue was the amount of mundane tasks you have to do. I loved the game, I still do, I prefer to watch the competitive scene. With more QoL features like this, I may actually consider returning.
@@_papasparta_-txc-4730 I can agree to that. But at the same time it drops the floor. So all in all a very good qol update. That's why I think T90 is getting a little to flustered. Still love the guy, just don't agree with him on this.
I'm on Viper's side on this one. I'm 1k ELO and DauT age so kinda slow. I'm pretty sure that up until mid castle age I'm placing at most two farms at a time, so using this makes no sense. Its: select two vills, press shortcut for building farms and either point at tc and click twice or point at a specified location and click, move a bit and click. The old way is so much more control for no price.
Plus, what I think is important but was missed in the Video: in early stages of the game strategic farm placement is about much more than being optimally around TC. The minute you get archers in your base in feudal this feature becomes unusable. When being scout rushed maybe the first circle around TC might be auto placed but then you have to prefer the spots that are easier to defend, right? This makes it obvious for me that it will be used in late game only and I'm totally fine with it
Humble you say!?! With your royal portrait hanging in the background. xD
As a 1200 Elo player i realy like this feature, esp for mid- lategame
And i am very much a Eco / defnsive player
While his thought process is in the right place, what the feature does doesnt affect any of it. A feature like this is way less impactful than the auto reseeding farms feature, but it does a similar thing which is letting you focus on the things you like to focus on. The only people this actively hurts are the people who play this game in a way where they have to manually place every farm at any given moment in the game, but I doubt those players are at a rank where quick farmplacement decides games.
As a 1100 Player with wrist issues I wholeheartedly agree! This update made playing food units fun again!
@@_papasparta_-txc-4730 Mundane eco management makes the game boring, not challenging. Macro players don't focus on micro because that's not their thing, they like to grow the eco and manage it towards a purpose, that doesn't mean they enjoy placing farms. The game's supposed to be fun, not mundane.
@@somebody700 exactly
Yeah viper you did a good job countering his arguments, and t90s choice of hammering the same key "it only survived because it's hard" just ruined his point, age of empires survived because it's good. This feature doesn't take anything away from what makes the game good
I think T90Official is really blowing out of proportion the impact this new feature is going to have on the competitive world of this game.
I don't really get the uniqueness argument from MBL - with this feature, manually placed farms are going to stand out even more. For low ELO players, the 5 extra seconds it takes to place them won't be the reason why they are in a lower rank.
I'm a T90 fan, but he really sounds like the old dude complaining about changes here. As a defensive player, I don't want to spend more time placing farms. I want to be able to shift into military. And his argument about it being a competitive advantage re being a mod - compare it to shift queuing, which I think we all agree is a positive. I do agree that this should have never been a priority over lobby stuff or idk PATHING, but I can't understand why people are freaking out so much about it.
tbh I think it's an over reaction to any automation being added because T90 (and many other pros) all are SO certain they are going to automate everything and this is just one more step to it. So they are like "SEE! IT'S COMING!" when in reality it's just a generally basic QOL thing and doesn't mean anything else. I think in a vacuum, there would be a lot less emotion over it. Maybe they'd still dislike it but not this bad.
because they don't have a life 11
Well, you gotta accept that a big chunk of this community is old dudes complaining about changes. It is a great game, but nostalgia carries the community quite a bit.
Some people still don't like Multi Queue 11
They probably don't play any RTS games released after 2000. These basic QoL features have been in so many games. Even a game released in 2002 has auto magic casting. Imagine if Monk has auto convert.
Wait til Hidden Cup comes around and T90 realises autofarm has added another layer of individuality to players - those who autofarm and those who don't. He'll actually love nerding out over that.
I just feel that in a normal competitive game with a scout rush you always place a farm as soon as you can and wouldnt use the autofarm feature. This is only something for lategame, where the general focus of the game should go from growing the economy towards map control and military transitions. Who cares at that stage if you can save like 2 seconds on placing new farms or not.
TheViper showed it in the video with a lot of wood in feudal, but if you have so much wood left over in the feudal age, then youre eco macro is messed up anyways already.
This gives me a "back in my days.." vibes lol
Well, back in my days AoE2 did not even have farm queues, you had to manually reseed every farm one by one. I played in 2002, I loved the game back then, and I still vividly remember how much I hated having to do that. Just because I loved the game doesn't mean it was perfect..
I remember T90 complaining about the new graphics and how difficult it was to identify the units when DE came out. Some people just don't like changes, for good or worse.
Big boomer energy you are saying?
I disagree with T90 about the autofarm but agree on the unit looking similar. The lighting on the new graphic makes units darker and they look more similar, reducing readability
As someone who hasn't had much access to pc and only got back in to AoE because it came to Xbox. I was so confused seeing DE knights. To me I thought they looked like scouts. I don't have any issues now and generally don't get confused but I can see where that came from. Also the building foundations not being flat took some getting used to because it's harder to click vills to deny castles etc.
@@TonyButter9 I'll be honest, Aoe2DE looks closer to how i remember Aoe2aok in my memory than the old one. It is like DE made someone that loved the game update it, readibility is fine.
Well, change can be scary because you don't know how it effects things in the long run and what other changes may come in the future. Thats a completely normal reaction imo.
I always liked strategy games to be more about decisions than chores.
RTS games are about this little "minigames". If you want more decision-heavy games you might want to look for other genres
@@scardy92 The history of RTS has been streamlining a lot of these "minigames" people often get attached to ones that they are used to, but name any eco mechanic and their is an RTS that automates that. AOM automated unit production. Total Anihilation automated all production and the economy, you could even have the units auto build and then auto patrol an area you want to defend. but you could do much more complex unit commands like drawing a premade formation or shift queing bombing paths. There are RTS's without workers. Its a balance and different games prioritize different skills. When I first learned about RTS I never thought "wow that would be cool to place farms that efficiently quickly. Things like Harrass, balancing eco, identifying key defensive positions, and using the environment to your advantage I think attract a lot more people than being good at economic minigames. I'd argue that economic minigames are really only justified because they provide some extra distraction that allows for the possibility of harrassment.
@@scardy92 Geez that's such an annoying reply. Beyond that, you're just wrong. RTS game are about player choice and decisions. Boil down any mechanic from a game like Starcraft for example, and you'll probably find that it's there to give the player options.
The same goes for AoE2 in most cases. However things like farm reseeding and farm placement didn't really involve much decision making, so automating them was basically 100% a good thing.
Basically, I'd say a good general rule is that it's fine to automate pretty much anything as long as it doesn't remove meaningful player choice.
@@scardy92 There it is, the gatekeepers of AoE2 telling others to move to other genres if they don't like mundane tasks in the game. Show your true colors, we've known that's really the core of your issue in the first place.
@@crimsongoldeagle8868 Precisely, it's all about the decisions you make. When do you age up, what type of units you invest your resources in, how do you read your opponent's plays, how do you counter it, do you go all-in or do you boom, all important decisions not one of which is affected by 2-3 seconds of timesaving on farm placement.
You're spot on in this video. His complaint is so silly because his reasoning would mean he'd like to see auto-reseed, multiqueue, villagers automatically going to work after making a TC/resource dropoff building etc. shift+queue units, shift+queue military to train 5 etc. etc. ALL GONE. It would be like worse than AoE1 in the very old days where you could only train 1 unit at a time from a barracks or town center 11. He really comes over as overexaggerating, really.
T90 really sounded like a boomer upset about a new addition. The whole video felt like "back in my day!"
As the game starts to get caotic, this feature will help a lot in saving space inside the base. My farms on those situations are crazy spread out and i constantly run out of space inside my walls
AOE survived because it is merciful and fair. In SC2 you die so fast to drops, mines, and such. As a low elo player you feel overwhelmed against higher level opponents dropping you from 3 different angles.
In AOE 2 you have a shooting town center protected you in Age 1, you have castles to stabilize in Age 3. This allows for better matches even if the elo range is not that close. Matches typically do not end in Age 1 - 2
I 100% agree. Stronger defenses allow more leeway for comebacks and counterplay which makes the game more strategically interesting. This and better QOL (in starcraft you have to number your blacksmith, TC etc. just to jump to it) is why I personally prefer this to starcraft.
T90 correlates number of ranked matches with enjoying the game. I have 5 ranked matches played and 1100 hours in the game. I had fun playing before this feature and I will have fun playing now too. Making a big deal out of nothig.
I think the slippery slope argument is valid, but placing farms is probably the most obnoxious part of the game. I think automating it helps make the game more fun and accessible while having a negligible impact on top players.
Much as I respect T90 and his passion for the game I don't really understand his point unless he thinks any feature of convenience is a negative. I don't see what choice this removes from the player. The choice to make a bad farm or a good farm? This is not imo the same as auto-que for villagers because you are still making the choice of whether or not you place a farm and around which building you do it. As a feature I don't think it's any different to being able to que villagers in production or being able to place the rally point for those villagers to a tree, for example. In this case too you choose to spend resources to make the next villager in the que and you're choosing that it will go chop wood when it comes out. The game just automates the part of it where you would otherwise bring over your camera to the villager by the tc, selecting him and clicking on a tree. Would the game really be better without these features?
Auto-que villagers would be more similar to auto-reseed but reseeding happens generally much later in the game and far less frequently than producing villagers. Were people this resistant to auto-reseed and what do the people who were apprehensive about it think now? I'm quite curious about this actually.
Either way this seems quite small for pro players, time gained from using this or lost from not using it will be a few seconds across a game of 1+ hours where as reseed saves comparatively enormous amounts of time. Seems a bit blown out of proportion. I find myself agreeing with everything The Viper said.
I also like auto-farms, but I also understand why they express discontent.
It's like anything : if you loose something, you feel bad about it.
If you are like the viper and you think placing farms close (the way the automation does it) is insignificant because you just know the best way to do it, and it's not interresting anymore, then you loose nothing.
But just like Viper has fun placing fish traps, there IS fun and freedom in placing farms.
So, even if it was something pretty insignificant, it is still something you loose. And seeing your passion loose elements you once loved CAN be scary.
But all in all, I think the QoL of this feature outbalances greatly the negative in the long term because of the insignificance of this aspect of the game, and the resistance to play created by the lack of QoL.
@@pierred3088 As soon as you understand that villagers need to carry gathered resources to a drop off point you will know that farms are better closer to drop off points. So everybody knows how to do good farms this mechanic mainly makes it faster to do when you also have to do other things. If you're playing simcity you can still manually place farms in the way you want to (less or more efficient ones). The advantage gained from a farm that is one tile closer to the drop off point is so tiny that it is entirely negligible. Games will not be won or lost because of that.
The main change is that it is faster to place farms under pressure. The mechanic isn't perfect so it might place shitty farms but placing them is faster which is important under pressure and as said the difference in efficiency is teeny tiny. SotL has a video on this. Technically this does reduce skill expression but only ever so slightly and so do any other QoL features in the game like rally points or unit/research que. Viper also put it very well when he said that this isn't/shouldn't need to be a significant part of the skill expression of the game.
It reduces the apm tax of economy management and I think it could even have a positive effect on players, guiding them towards better play. If you're microing units and would need to place farms you might not do it because you think the farms will be bad or it'll take too long. It smart to place them even if you do it poorly or a bit faster but people might not do it because you it seems wasteful to place shitty farms. This is just speculation though.
T90 was speaking entirely out of his love and passion for the game, it was 100% emotional and 0% rational. You could tell because there wasn't a lot of structure to what he said and it wasn't formulated in a way where some of it would have been written down. He was talking about that "ebb and flow of the game" stuff and all he really said was: The game plays well, so let's not change anything about the game because that would change a game that plays well. Every patch changes the game, every new piece of content, every bugfix and balance change. T90 and all, or an enormous majority, of the people who are complaining will come around, I have no doubt that they will.
TheViper has good takes suspiciously often 🤔
I have been in AOE since the start, 20 years.. I can't believe the resistance to change of some people. Change to improve GAMEPLAY.
The same thing happen when auto-seeding was introduced, and that change was even greater than this. The sound of a farm needing to be reseed, the new calculations of how many vills in wood u need to had. All changes that once implemented into the 'meta' improved dramatically gameplay.
Call me crazy, but placing aesthetically pleasing farms is one of my favorite parts of the game lol
we can still do that and perfectly place our mills in between
I completely agree. I love placing the farms, so neat and satisfying.
Coming from 15+ years of another hard game (Dota 2) and new enjoyer of Soulslike, the argument of "game is good because its hard" is almost always wrong. These games are unique, giving you endless options to configure from to create your unique experience each time. It doesn't matter its hard or easy and giving an automation to "chores" in the game is a good direction.
People are always conservative to change but they result in better experience most likely.
yeah, you can _very easily_ make a game that is almost impossible to ever win, which is presumably what people mean when they say that dota or soulslikes are difficult, but of course most of those very simple, hard games would be utter trash. the thing that makes hard games enjoyable, imho, is that the game gives you reasons to engage _beyond_ simply telling you that you're currently winning, every moment of the game, but rather gives you something that you would enjoy using and engaging with no matter the outcome, and then winning is a great bonus on top if you manage to pull it off.
This whole debate reminds me of singlequeue vs multiqueue back in the voobly days.
I think auto refreshing farms / fish traps, auto scout, built in small trees setting, built in range indicators, shift queuing, automatic building production distribution (remmeber when buildign from multiple selected barracks would max them one at a time) are all MUCH bigger changes to the game made during DE than this. They all started as "cheating mods" or simple automation QoL improvements. I think it's good to have some initial push back / hesitation against any of these changes to make sure that they don't break the game but at the same time people spouting doom and gloom are WAY over playing their hands.
SotL has shown that sloppy chaotic farms vs neat and organized farms made in the super late game has a very small impact. IMO if you're using this feature more than twice a game you probably are floating way too much wood (I say this as someone who will definitely use this feature many times a game and it's going to help me). Even the "top 100" pros. if this helps the top tier become more competitive i think it's good. This change isn't going to let anyone turn the tables on Hera for example and I really don't see it being more impactful than any of the things I listed at the start.
Placing farms - I repeat, ***placing*** farms - is not an exciting part of the game. And it's not even full automated placement, it's merely auto-aligning!
Why are people getting hung up on it? You'll manually place when there's efficiencies to be gained, and use the auto-placement when there's not.
Most everyone wins from this, no one loses!
Remember when the devs added autoscout and everyone freaked out? yeah, that...
In all seriousness, autofarm is not better than manually placing farms in the early game (as proved by SotL's video), but it does remove a tedious part of the game in the late game. For me it's a huge W for low and high elo alike.
i think that the strongest point was that farm placement is part of your identity rather than time spared, and just by looking at a town, you could guess who is the player behind.
I know t90 is exaggerating about the reason aoe survived is that it is hard, but I think that is such a disservice to the entire community that kept it alive. People like T90 played a big role in keeping the game alive by fostering a community. Other content creators, map creators, etc also played a big role. They are the reason why the game has been alive.
I wonder if T90 would have the same opinion if he did not host Hidden Cup. I can see why autofarm would potentially be bad for HC, but I dont think it has an impact on other aspect. Majority of mid-late game commentary revolve around the army location, and the farm placement is rarely mentioned.
Your best point here is "people over exaggerate the impact". The response to this is typical for online behaviour and in a few months people will be using it like it was always there. Also I agree the difference between winning and losing isn't how, or where, 10 farms are placed, it's whether or not those 10 farms were even placed to begin with.
Or, it was better to place 7 farms and train a few additional units.
Exactly, the type of player that forgets too many vills on wood is not going to be largely impacted by the 2-3 seconds of saving it took to move those vills from wood to food. The real impact is the 10 minutes he left those vills on wood instead of switching them to food.
T90's biggest mistake is when he succumbs to the slippery slope fallacy. "When will it end?" Somewhere T90. Somewhere.
If you have ever played a Blizzard game you know that's not true. It might take more than a decade, but you will see the consequences if we don't make it stop.
I played Blizzard games before AoE. One other person's shortcomings shouldn't affect a completely unrelated person.
@@ThatGuanfranco it's not people it's companies
You should learn from history though, otherwise it can repeat itself.
If the argument of "this is to make it easier for the new player" sticks and is their motivation, then there is a financial incentive to do this. On top of that this happens with games in general. Making them increasingly simplified. This is not new. We have evidence, so not a fallacy. How much time was there between drop off hotkey and these farms? I say consider stopping it now.
I think this quality of life things are good to the overall gameplay, but at the same time I can se a similitud, recently they buffed movement in Call of Duty, and we saw that alot of players increased their Ranked Play level, it created a new ceiling, but overall the reception was great, I know it might be an artificial inflated ceiling but old player "got better" and new players find it easier to learn.
it survived because its fun, the steps from HD to DE with shift queueing was soooo great. U still have to know the macro game, counters, ....
T90 is not right but viper is right
A fairly important counter point I think--you still need to have the foresight to jump back to your base to make farms and rebalance AND decide where to place them. In mid/lower elo you're going to see players place a mill 3x farther from their base then need be so that they can auto-place farms efficiently which will make them easier to raid. The auto-farm feature also isn't AI, in arena games where you have limited space it won't place farms 100% perfectly inside your base to optimize every tile. The only thing auto farm placement does is save APM, where you place your mill/tc and deciding when to move vills over to farms is what's important to the difficulty of the game.
**** At 45 minutes in and losing a game and my only win con is to reboom, if the answer is resign because my brain knows what needs to be done but I don't have the APM to do it feels truly devastating. In that situation, I want to lose the game because I forgot to wall, I didn't collect stone and can't place castles down to protect my eco, or placed my farms too far out and I got raided to death, not because of my APM.
for me, changes in competitive games always should be assessed through the lens of "what skills do we value in this game?" and in this case, i honestly think it's down to personal opinion, not some widely agreed upon things.
like, being able to select a group of monks, right click on a group of enemies, and have the monks automatically target individual enemies, i think most people would agree is removing a large part of monk micro, a skill we care about.
placing farms quickly is a form of micro, and whether or not we care about it depends on a lot of things. personally i think it's not important and making it easier will just open up more room for players to optimize more important parts of the game.
What if the thing I value isn't a particular skill but instead a particular type of decision making. For example, Maybe I value the ability to correctly decide when to take the time to prepare for a Hussar switch by placing 20 farms versus trying to avoid a onager shot while attacking with arb? I don't think this update just removes a skill I think it also simplifies a decision. I think it's fine. But it's not just "now you click less". Its also "now you think less".
If they made that monk change I would agree they're going too far
@@neildutoit5177 There is exactly nothing stopping you from placing farms how you've always been placing them. Not one thing is preventing you from doing that.
Have you actually played with the new farm placement QoL? Over the course of the game, the only time it's actually useful is in the late game when you are floating enough wood for 8+ farms.
@@tiestofalljays "There is exactly nothing stopping you from placing farms how you've always been placing them." And if cobra cars became part of the game in ranked, you would argue that it's fine there's exactly nothing stopping me from making the units I'd always been making? It blows my mind so many people think this is a real argument.
"Have you actually played with the new farm placement QoL?" Yes. Like I said, I think it's fine. I actually quite like it. I don't know why people find it impossible to believe that one person can (a) aknowledge the cons of a decision and at the same time (b) think that the pros outweigh the cons. There are cons to auto-farm. I can make that claim while still supporting it. Which is what I did.
"Over the course of the game, the only time it's actually useful is in the late game when you are floating enough wood for 8+ farms." which could be an extremely critical point in the game. Late game is exactly when there's often a lot going on and where taking time to place farms can be the most difficult. Have you never seen a player lose all their xbow to an onagar shot while trying to prepare farms for a light-cav transition?
That monk thing would be disgusting 😂 I genuinely wouldn't play until it got reverted.
As a 1100 Player with wrist issues I wholeheartedly agree with your points! This update made playing food units fun again!
As mostly a spectator autofarms are a pure positive. As Viper points out pros will use this late-game, when there is action all over. I'd take 1 more second of action over 1 second of half random frantic farm clicking any day of the week.
Age of Mythology kinda already had this (though indirectly) due to building snap placement, plus auto queue units. They didn't ruin the game, and in fact just became part of the macro. Auto scout has done far worse for the game than this, and yet auto scout isn't OP like everyone was fearing. All it does is raise the skill floor, not lower the ceiling.
Age of Empires 4 already has this feature _precisely._ Click on your mill or TC (or even other buildings) when you have the farm blueprint selected, and it builds them around. It's been in AoE4 since that game released. And yet even when it was really popular in AoE2 forums to find every possible excuse to complain about AoE4, _this point never got brought up._ In fact, all I ever saw for that feature was _praise._ It's just a good quality-of-life feature. Nothing more.
I think that every scout can now autoscaut has a lot more impact than autofarm placement. Specially in low elo games, where players idle their scouts a lot
The problem was never the time taken to place the farm, at lower elos. It’s remembering to place the farms. Yes, it will make life easier, it’s right there in the phrase “quality of life”. But it won’t change the game for the micro nerds compared to the eco oriented players at this level, if it won’t at pro level..
No matter what changes devs make, they are same to all players.
Something worth mentioning is that good farm placement helps but is not very important, especially after wheelbarrow and hand cart (I vaguely remember an SoL video showing small gains from optimal farm placement).
If you have 120 eco you likely have 50-60 on farms. The first 10-20 farms you build are typically built when you don't have much wood in the bank so you will likely manually place them either way. That leaves 30-50 farms tops you may add using this feature. For every 8 farms you may save 2-3 seconds. That's barely 10-30 seconds over the length of an entire game that reaches full eco potential. T90 is full of it.
The placement of the farms aint the difference maker here, its the time spent placing the farms.
I think it's just people overreacting because they just don't like change. Personally I completely agree with Viper: placing farms late-game is a huge pain in the ass. This feature is mostly useful for that purpose. If you have 1000 wood in feudal age to place 15 farms, the "micro" advantages are the last of your problems.
T90 is not happy because low elo's will now never mess up farms 😂
You have to understand placing farms is a creative outlet for T90. His farms are art!
This makes me think of what could be a cool game mode: Have 1 player play the game with all the quality of life changes that have been added and another play the game only with features that where in the game when it released in 1999. See how much of a difference everything actually makes.
That might be a fun handicap. Maybe something Hera would consider when playing fans.
This feature only let's you auto build them as fast as your ping. So when you have to play on a far server they get placed very slowly while your opponent might get to place them faster.
If that's true and they leave it in, maybe they should make some of it local, queuing up orders, and the server checking it, without having to wait for server response for each one. That would be unfair.
I haven't intentionally used auto-farm yet because I forget it is there, but I have noticed it getting in the way while I'm trying to place them manually.
I should add a button to automatically create villagers in the tc and make the sound of running out of houses come sooner as a warning like in AOE 4
There is absolutely no problem with this change. Some people, including T90 are overly exaggerating it by comparing it with things like "auto villager production". Really? It just saves you from doing a mundane, boring task. It doesn't play the game for you. If this is a problem, then having hotkeys is also a problem since you can do everything using the mouse and the hotkeys just make things faster. QoL features are always welcome.
Deeply impressed by TheViper's humility, stating "I can see where he's coming from, I just disagree for these reasons." I mean, he handled disagreement in a very peaceable way.
This was 100% done for console, and they went "hell might as well give it to pc"
i don't think this changes anything. all it does is reduce the required time to perform a action that would've been done anyway.
The player decides "im gonna drop 10 farms" and all it saves him is 1-2 seconds he could instead use to dodge a manganel shot.
i think the effect on the "esport" is positive as well, any second a pro doesn't send back his army to macro for 20 seconds is more exciting to watch.
6:30 the lord diss at the end got me off guard man 😂😂😂😂
People have always been worried when there are changes. Sometimes changes are good
Lets be honest, the real reason why auto-farm placement is awful is that commentators won't be able to make fun of top players bad farm placement. I'm not sure the QoL is worth it for that.
10:03 I saw a lot of people being hung up on the wood count of the example footage but it's really just me loading up an empire wars game so I could quickly test the jump between a forward fight and caring about eco, I essentially just opened a random framework to spam as many farms as possible, not play an actual game. the argument is just about how much time you need placing farms rather than saving your scouts from some sneaky spears
Looking forward to auto convert, then. Monk micro is basically just a chore (there is no strategic depth in quickly clicking monks to convert units individually). I think this would be an automation that would make the game a lot more beginner friendly. They would have to change the way monks work because theyld become completely op, but this would not take away any strategic depth.
But the auto farmplacement does not reduce your actions you need to take. you still need to click. you spare some mouse movment.
It would be more like clicking on a monk to start conversion to the closest unit.
There is indeed an impact: you want to convert specific units because some are stronger or healthier. It is not like you just want anything converted.
My little experience with the feature is: I place my first farm manually generally early feudal age and when I start piling wood add more. And at that point actually auto farm is (sometimes %50-50, if I accidently place first farm 1 tile different then auto) affecting negatively. It snaps to a tile away from the inital farm and becomes a bit annoying as this time also when agression starts.
I agree with you mister Viper, I Use to lose more because of the decission making than my Farm placing
The farm feature is one of my favorite things about aoe4
People are not talking about one of the main problems with auto farm placement: its efficiency at higher ping is WAY worse then at lower pings. As a Brazilian who almost always play at 150-250 ping, the auto placement is MUCH slower then manual placing. So my oponnent (if playing at lower ping) is gaining an unfair advantage because his ping is lower.
Autofarm is a nice addition to the game. You are not auto rebalancing the eco, OCD placement of farms is not that interesting. I believe changes like this make the game more approachable
It would be nice to know how many *new* farms are placed during the course of an average game, and what percentage of them is placed using this feature. My guess is that it would be much lower than people think. I would not be surpised if in a 40-50 minutes game there are less than 30 farms placed with this autoplacement. The first 8 or so farms around the TC are probably going to set manually, so maybe it's going to affect 10-12 farms for each new mill.
Perhaps there is a bit efficiency gain with better placed farms, and perhaps you save two seconds placing farms, but you don't place new farms all game long so often that it's going to matter long-term.
Some people's *only* argument against this is the slippery slope argument, and it's just nonsense. The slippery slope argument is called a _fallacy_ for a reason. It's false. It doesn't work. Just because they've done one thing that's a good quality of life feature does _not_ mean they're going to do bad game-damaging automation in the future. If you want to make that claim, you've got to _prove_ that that's what will happen, not just wildly assert it.
He doesn't just wildly assert it though. He explains that it's the logical conclusion of taking the stance that making the game beginner friendly is a priority. I don't necessarily agree. But he didn't just assert it.
Also Noone proves anything outside of mathematics. It's all just arguments, some more convincing than others.
@@neildutoit5177 except it's not "the logical conclusion". Not even remotely. Taking away parts of the game that are actually important is not a logical conclusion of streamlining parts of the game that are not.
@@JimCullen Yea. So there's a difference between disagreeing with someone's reasoning, and saying that they had none and just asserted it.
It's not even true, we are further up the slope with farm placement snapping than we were with auto farm reseed when DE came out.
You say That's a fallacy, but nothing is certain until we have enough time for it to be tested by the community and for the ladder to change based on that (which is difficult to measure unless That's the only feature changing)
Both presented arguments that are valid, they just have different beliefs on the impact on the game
I think it's a good change and not because it makes the game more accessible for noobies but rather that the focus shifts more towards decision making and strategy. Execution is one part and great examples are luring deer or boars. On the other hand all these "unintended" micro adjustments like manual microing of gathering-villagers or placing farms shouldn't be something the game is about. It isn't like there is a decision to make, there is only one way to do it right. In Starcraft there is no such thing as bumping villagers and the competition was one of the highest in any RTS. When executing a Tech-Switch, or microing big armies, high APM should be rewarded. Placing farms faster than lucky luke isn't something the broad audience cares about. I have to admit, I missed out some T90-Streams and maybe he always highlighted these epic farm placement moments xD
T90 really trying to break down micro and macro like Brood War never existed
i'm a 900 elo noob. I find this whole discussion really got out of proportion, i don't even like *personally* to use this new feature, but I don't mind it being in the game. For me it's the Caravanseria equivalent for farms, it helps, it's not game-changing, not everyone uses /likes it.
@TheViper I have an example. Lets say you want to build 6 farms. Without autofarm you have more strategic choices to make. Do i build 3 farms then micro army and build 3 farms again. Or do you build 2 farms, micro army, 2 farms again, micro again. Etc. It seems with autofarm these choices become less impactfull.
Maybe the same could be said about auto dropoff when completing a building. Before with old age of empires, you select your wood villagers and choose to send them to lumbercamp first before creating farms. Or you just pick the villagers who just dropped off. Or you choose to lose the recources and take wood villagers and just build the farms. Now with auto dropoff upon completion all these minor differences are gone. Ofcourse you can use auto dropoff and auto farm in different strategic ways, but i think some people are arguing there will be less strategic variances in this area. I think they have a valid point.
The less strategic variances in base and eco wise the more people can start fulltime micro ing army. I guess it will resemble Warcraft 3 a little bit more then right? I saw you videos with Grubby and it seems like Warcraft 3 is a lot of micro ing army. (Ofcourse there are lots of other aspects).
The problem is if the next step is auto conversion and auto mangonel shoot as if it had ballistics.
i think the lower the elo the earlier farm placement makes an impact because of ability of multitasking and keeping eco efficient.
I t is definitely not efficient as he tries to argue, it just tries to fill preprogramed pattern instead of: finding best pattern to optimize drop distance between points and taking wood, houses and other buildings into account
Also SOTL already said how small difference is it and it should end any discussion even if above mentioned issues with the feature would be improved.
TheViper is correct in saying that Auto Farms will not impact the games ranking system. At least not in the long term, as that is how the ranked system is designed. Short term, yes it will have an affect, but no different to a balance patch.
T90 is correct in that Auto Farms will impact the games health & longevity. Graphics improvements aside, quality of life improvements have historically been far worse for a games longevity than they have for it's survival. If you want a game to compare, there is none better than World Of Warcraft.
I certainly don't want to play the game if they keep adding these kinds of "improvements"
They need to be adding pathing improvements, grouping improvements and fixing the connections issues for new players.
You don't have to look far to see there has been connection issues for many years & they are still ongoing.
I love the farm change even though im good at placing farms and i love that i can spend more time with micro. I dont like the auto hussar change. I would also like an auto queue vil button. But i really want that you can not delete units that are being converted (auto convert after delete).