Dimmers and Lamps - LED, Incandescent, CFL
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 4 июн 2024
- The plug in 300W dimmer with various different lamps. Plus another dimmer, minimum load requirements and power consumption of various LED lamps.
► Support this channel:
Patreon: / jwflame
PayPal Donations: xo4.uk/?PPP
► Social Media:
Twitter: / jwflame
Facebook: / jwflame
Instagram: / jwflame
► Contact info, sending stuff in: etc.:
xo4.uk/?YTT
► Website - More on this video and many other subjects
Website: www.flameport.com
Page for this video: xo4.uk/?DmR 
Наука
Would be very interesting to see the output from the dimmers hooked up to a scope to see what each one does to the AC waveform.
As a ham radio amateur I would also be interested in the noise on lets say HF/MW frequencies on experiments like this. :)
These types of videos are terribly interesting!!! Thanks JW!! Even though I have 120v mains, this type of stuff is still 100% directly applicable.
Thanks for taking the time to make this follow-up video. Though I’m afraid I must strongly disagree with your conclusion that the plug-in dimmer (supposedly designed to work with dimmable LEDs) works well with dimmable LEDs.
First, I suppose we should define what we mean by ‘working well’. For me this would require the dimmer to maintain a set brightness at a low value indefinitely and not just for a few seconds. In your tests you only have the low setting for short periods. The problem I have experienced, now across a wide range of dimmable LED makes, is that after several minutes (maybe half an hour or more), the light level will usually flicker up and down (not massively but enough to be annoying - roughly, say, doubling or halving in brightness) and then eventually usually goes out!
So, unless you only use the dimmer at a high level or are happy to have your lighting changing level in this way, in my opinion, this plug-in dimmer is pretty useless for dimmable LEDs (or at least all the makes of LED lamp I have tried now with two of these plug-in devices).
Up to date dimmers have a derating factor of about 5:1 for LED lamps. I just fitted a dimmer rated 60-400w for incandescent bulbs, but with the derating that is 12-80w for LED lamps. This particular one (Aurora DSP400x) also has a secondary potentiometer inside for setting the minimum brightness so it gives good adjustment across the full scale.
The last house I lived in had a six bulb chandelier with six incandescent bulbs in it. I took one look at it, counted up the power usage of all the bulbs and went out to buy some CFLs to save some power (it's an old house, I moved in about six years ago before LED bulbs took over). Then I realised the switch was a dimmer switch. Being curious, I swapped all the bulbs out for CFLs and turned the dial and was greeted by a strobing room full of angry, loud buzzing. The dimmer got rather warm too...
Shortly after I swapped the dimmer switch for a regular switch.
That's because CFL lamps are inductive loads, dimmers don't like inductive loads, only resistive loads. Multiply that by 6 and the triac or thyristor in your dimmer will be struggling with back emf lol..
Thanks for this. Nice that you are using the dimmer from last video.
Very interesting tests , Thank you for taking the time to do them.
I made the switch to LED lights a couple of years back and the consumption seems much more reasonable. The multipack LAP ones from screwfix have done me well and the "Diall" fillament types are ok once you get a reliable bulb it remains so. B&Q will change duds for free if you keep the receipt (which in that place is a must ££££). I've tried the cheapo ones from poundland but that's in the shed so its not exactly racking up the hours.
Just need to figure out the best way to replace a 58w tube light in the kitchen now, the LED battens are expensive for the time being and buying the cheap ones will probably lead to continual replacement of the entire unit.
Interesting! And it explains something, as well. I never knew there were dimmers with a minimum rating before. Anyhow, this past weekend, I was clearing out my recently departed uncle's apartment, and it seems that he only ever actually replaced light bulbs when they were in lights that he really, really needed, and as he lived in that place for around 25 years, there were a lot of failed bulbs. So I went and bought a whole bunch of cheap LED bulbs to replace all the burned out ones (it stated in his lease that all light bulbs were working when he moved in and that they needed to be working when he moved out, and as the landlord had been really good to him, only increasing his rent one time, and by just $25 throughout his 25-year residence there, I wanted to do everything correctly) Anyhow, the dining room had a dimmer switch for its light, so I bought 2 dimmable LED bulbs to go in there. When I put them in, they behaved a lot like your dimmable LED bulbs did with the dimmer meant to be hard wired to the wall, though the ones I had were a bit flickery and noisy as well, even at "full power." I thought they were defective, but they worked perfectly well in normal light fixtures. I ended up putting 2 still- working incandescent bulbs from other places in, so that I didn't have to try and get new incandescent bulbs in a small town late in the day on a weekend. (The hardware stores were closed, leaving me with a dollar store as the only option that I knew, since I'm not real familiar with the town he lived in)
As I understand it, LED dimmers are MOSFET trailing edge, so it lets through the front of each cycle and then cuts the tail off, while conventional TRIAC based dimmers are leading edge, so turning on partway through the cycle and then letting the rest through. The minimum load is because the TRIAC needs a certain minimum current to remain latched until the end of the cycle otherwise it will drop out early.
The dimmable LED tends to use a quite high voltage LED string and a current limiting driver, so the usable part of the cycle is near the top, with the beginning and end being too low to reach the LED voltage.
Compare with the non-dimmable capacitor dropper (likely to react VERY badly indeed, may overload and damage the bulb due to the sharp edged waveform), or the buck driver circuit which will also be highly stressed due to inrush current - typically there is a fusible resistor to limit switch on surge if it happens at a cycle peak, and a dimmer subjects this to continual switching surges
JW as always your video is concise and interesting. There are some dimmers available on the market that are designed to work with (dimmable) LED lamps. I suggest searching for "Trailing Edge Dimmers" on the internet for research purposes. I have installed two. They were fiddly to program to work with the LEDs but have worked without any hitches ever since (in the region of 9 months, I think).
Great video thanks John
thanks John ... proper enlightening ... i grow less dimmer by the day ..
Another good video thanks 👍
Very interesting tests and measurements. I'm surprised the CFL's didn't cause more issues or kill either dimmer. I wonder how long they would run if left on for longer - set for maximum buzz of course!
There is a lighting effect in theatre using fluoro tubes plugged into triac dimmers and running at a level where all the tubes flicker randomly. Much better flicker than shown here. It's said to be bad for the dimmer but does work fine for the short periods required.
Very illuminating video ... 😁
Interesting experiment.
My grandad had some 1st generation milk bottle CFLs in the early 1990s. Had to turn the toilet light on when you just felt a light need to go and wait for about 15mins before you could see enough to aim.
Probably the Philips SL Prismatic.
Ah yes the SL18. First released 1984 according to Lamptech and weighed 500g!
Try the philips LED warm glow bulbs, they are more yellowish can be dimmable quite lower and less flicker, more expensive...
You can often correct a misbehaving Triac-based (Leading edge) dimmer by adding a conventional iron-core lighting transformer onto the output circuit. No halogen lamp, just the transformer. It's legal, safe and adds the inductive load that the dimmer needs to operate more smoothly with semi-capacitive loads of low wattage.
what plug'n'dimmer switch 3 pin square prong can i get 4 those high wattage GLS bulbs? (over 200W GLS)
I hate when dimmers are just being sold as "dimmer" and nothing in the box about the principle how the dimming is actually achieved and thus it's hard to decide what to expect from them in different uses.
Do you agree that the design of dimmer switches would be considerable simplified if the switch socket had both live and neutral available. The former to power the switch independent of the load and the latter to provide a true reference for the mains zero crossing. There does seem to be a lack of standardisation between dimmable electronic bulbs and compatible dimmer switches.
It seems perverse that we are no longer able to buy a replacement light bulb without worrying that it may not work with the dimmer switches currently fitted. I know of at least one DIY store that sells dimmable bulbs that will not work with dimmer switches it sells.
Many of the bulbs have a poor power factor, with some having inductive reactive loads, while others appear to be capacitively reactive. In general the LED bulbs tend to be capacitively reactive requiring the use of trailing edge dimmer switching, however I have come across a few, notable for their weight, that are inductively reactive and will only work safely with leading edge switching. I assume this feature is intended to allow them to work with the older dimmer switches.
To some extent the problem of ensuring compatible operation between switch and bulb has been solved by the advent of intelligent, WiFi enabled dimmable multicoloured LED bulbs, but it seems a complete waste of electronics to include a mesh network receiver in each bulb. I think there is something wrong with modern technology when a remote network server is required to turn on your living room light.
Dimmers makes no sense nowadays, I removed all the dimmers in my home, and if you want dimmable lights you buy smart bulbs. A receiver is a chip that nowadays costs a couple of cents, it's not that a waste to be fair.
@@alerighi the EU outlawed tungsten filament bulbs before there was a proven technological replacement. ( They are doing the same with diesel, but that is another story). It could be argued that the CFL introduced a new dark age to Europe.
Where lights are controlled by a remote network server, the cost of the receiver in the bulb is not that significant. It is the technological overkill that this represents and the social implications of handing the control of your home to big corporations that is the problem. Corporations that have a new business model of providing services for a fee and have a passion for collecting personal information about their customers. Even the local IR/RF controlled dimmable bulbs have a problem, the electronics may be low cost but the price of the bulb is not. Different manufactures have there own proprietary standards for the controller, locking the customer into buying from the same manufacture each time, with no guarantee that the standard has not changed since the last time the bulb was replaced.
There is clearly a lack of standards with regard to compatibility between dimmer switches and bulbs on the market. It is a real safety issue, as fitting a mismatched bulb with a dim switch is potentially dangerous. A capacitive reactive load with a leading edge switch can produce excessive inrush currents and an inductive reactive load with a trailing edge switch can result in large voltage spikes across the load.
Your suggested solution of fitting more bulbs inorder to control a rooms light level has a number of disadvantages:
it limits the level of light control to just a few states.
It defeats the objective of saving energy.
It generates more electronic waste.
It complicates the wiring and switching options.
The light provided by more than one source is not directly equivalent to that provided from one.
Like many of the technological innovations we are offered today, the improvement is no better than the original and is in fact worse.
In this case it is lighting, but it is more often the case where computers and software are involved, but that is another story.
hi liked this video, very informative I have a question could this plug dimmer at 300w, be ok for using a 100 w soldering iron
Yes if it's just a basic soldering iron (not one with electronic temperature display or similar).
@@jwflame thank you,
@@jwflame I have ordered one will let yo know how it performs
If you were to install dimmable led 240v downlights, can you wire it to a normal on and off switch and not a dimmer switch. I’m curious because I think it would turn on at its full brightness capacity.
Yes, the only disadvantage is that dimmable lamps usually cost more.
Thanks for this JW, I'll be on the look out to replace the dimmers in the kitchen now I suppose,.. there's at least 5 lamps on 2 dimmers in there right now.
I got some of those LED filament bulbs from screwfix "dimmable" hmm.. partially. The dimmers in our kitchen which must be over 20 years old to be honest, don't really dim it very much, and then yeah you get the buzzing from the bulb what I assume must be a triac or so.. there must be capacitor in there as well, I haven't taken one apart as none have blown since being replaced..
They're a nice colour though, those halogen ones didn't seem to last very long, so gradually as bulbs go I'm replacing them with LEDs, especially bed side lights and such with "very warm", they look nice at 2 or 4 watt.
Hello John (JW) Would a LED Dimmer switch witch is designed for led lamps... Will they Dim a Non Dimmable Led Bulb ? The bulbs im talking about are them GLS Or candle Clear bulbs with the led strips inside. ???
No, the lamps must be dimmable types. Non-dimmable LEDs will not work with any dimmer.
@@jwflame cheers
Hi I wonder where you got such a pattress for your 86*86 dimmer please? Do you have the link? (I wish to make myself a dimming extension lead for my floor lamp)
1 gang PVC conduit box, such as this one: www.toolstation.com/pvc-box/p41969
They normally have 1 or 2 round 20mm knockout holes, but if not they are easy to drill being made of soft PVC, rather than the hard brittle plastic that's used for other surface boxes.
@@jwflame Thank you for your suggestion! What about the grey nodules at both ends of the box? I wasn't aware that they come separately...
@@CRH1A-1145 www.toolstation.com/p/p80473
What’s the difference between a lead and lag dimmer switch (in regards to LED)? Are newer dimmers capable of both?
Described in this video: ruclips.net/video/EDmXiG5AvSQ/видео.html
Best to dim lamps via a transformer to low voltage bulbs.
What happens if you plug a dimmer into another dimmer?
I never had much joy with dimmable leds even with a varilight dimmer designed for low loads. I've resorted to some smart LEDs instead which don't hum or notably flicker and dim just fine with my phone.
What is the app like? Seems a pain to use the phone lol.
I changed all my CFL bulbs to LED a few years back, wish I hadn't of bothered now as I've got boxes of working CFL's sitting around that nobody wants. I should of just replaced them as needed when they failed.
Been through this three times now! First I bought the first generation of CFL lamps and started replacing filament lamps where I could. Then started to replace them with the lighter (less heavy) more modern (and cheaper) CFL lamps that got to full brightness quicker. Then moved house. The new house uses a lot of MR11 down lighters. Then started buying LED lamps. So now have spares of all types as the failure rate of all types has been a lot lower than expected! The only type that did not appear to last as long as I thought it would, was the CFL that was equivalent to about 150 to 200W. Forget the exact rating. Mind, that type did get used for many hours a day, every day.
I only use the CFL in the spare room (used as a small office). Loft has filament lamps still. Hallway has the fittings that take the stick light type FL. kitchen uses a mixture of conventional fluorescent lights and down lights. Garage uses conventional fluorescent lights. Everywhere else is either LED lamps, or down lights (mostly LEDs now, a few QH until I replace the electronic transformer).
Ditto!
My solution to this was to move house, and leave them all behind. They're all in a box, under the stairs of my old house for the next occupants to wonder about. Especially the four or so edison screw bulbs that fit none of the light fittings ;-)
I do not miss the brief moment of gloom when turning on an LED compared to a CFL. Nor do I miss the excitement of switching on an incandescent bulb, hearing it go "plink!" and having to fit a new bulb in the dark - stood on a chair, feeling for the socket without actually sticking a finger in it. Or the joy of trying to undo a hot 100W bulb when it blew after being used for a few hours.
I'm surprised they've not banned bayonet and ES style bulbs for being dangerous. We have shuttered sockets, but pop a bulb out your bedside lamp and stick a finger right in it.
Without sounding stupid...when u ajust the the dial does it change the voltage, limit the current or manipulate the frequency???
My guess is it contains a triac and controls power using phase angel control
Probably neither, after the voltage crosses the zero point it waits for longer before switching it back on, "cutting" the first part of the waveform and making it look a bit like a square wave. There also exist other types of dimmers that cut the tops off the sine wave making them flat, and ones that cut out in the middle of the sine wave, chopping the end of it off rather than the start. This is why there are so many variations between types of lights and dimmers and which will work with what.
Where are you getting filament bulbs, i thought they were banned in #uk
I have found them at local retailers still available
They're not banned AFAIK, but not generally available as they used to be. There are still applications where only an incandescent bulb will work correctly, though halogens are a close second.
I need to find a source of them, as I use incandescent bulbs for fault current limiting when powering up a just-repaired device :)
These are all old ones, mostly removed from places when changing to LED.
Why is there a minium spec on dimmers ?
The Triac inside the dimmer (that is used to perform the dimming) needs a certain amount of load on it to switch öff"properly. Household dimmers are manufactured down to a price, so they have the least complicated internals that they can get away with.
Never hear of power faster. Can you explain what it is?
Power factor, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor
I have a cfl that’s designed to be dimmable. It needs a proprietary dimmer though to function properly. When I turn it on at the dimmest setting, it starts at fullish brightness and ramps down after a second or so.
So what is power factor?
That's a big topic, so here's my best attempt to explain the key points.
The Power Factor of a load is expressed as a value between 0.0 and 1.0, with 1.0 being the optimal value (a purely resistive load). A value less than 1.0 indicates a "reactive" load, in which the AC current is "out of phase" with the AC voltage. This means a higher current has to flow to compensate for the phase difference to deliver rated power in the load. This extra current causes additional heating in the transmission lines and is wasted energy in the power grid, and hence a loss for the utility companies. Industrial users are therefore metered for their "Reactive Power" use (measured in kVAR - kilo Volt Ampere Reactive) as well as the "Real" power (measured in kW - kilowatts), but at present domestic users are only metered for "Real" power.
Poor Power Factor can be corrected. Inductive loads (motors, heating) cause the current to "lag" behind the voltage, where as capacitive loads (Some LED lamps, etc) cause the current to "lead" the voltage. Capacitors can be used to correct an inductive load, and inductors can be used to correct a capacitive load. The goal is always a Power Factor of 1, a purely resistive load.
The final class of load is "non-linear", which includes switch mode power supplies (ie PCs/computers and electronic equipment). These devices usually need "active" power factor correction built into the PSU, which must be employed in devices certified for the 80plus efficiency requirements.
With the introduction of "smart" meters for domestic properties, it may be possible for utility companies to measure VAR usage in domestic supplies. This means the running cost for the LED lamp with a Power Factor of 0.5 will be significantly more than if metered on kWh only.
More details here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor
...and after all that I forgot to include the definition.
Power Factor = cos(phi)
where cos is the mathematical cosine function, and phi is the phase angle between the voltage and current waveform.
So, when voltage and current are in phase (ie a resistive load), phi=0 and cos(0) is 1, so the power factor is 1.
Also, power factor can also be negative, in the case of electrical generators.
@@marct3928 the led bulbs I've got here are 0.4pf
4:03 a really strange noise for a dimmer... maybe the dimmer was hungry.
Too bad you didn't have/show a 300w incandescent.
What would that have demonstrated?
Dimmers were great when the only lamps were filament type. But now with LED lamps, even with “dimmable” LED types, they are not worth while. So far, all the decent brand “dimmable” LED lamps that I have tried all buzz to a greater or lesser amount, which is just plain annoying. So I no longer bother with dimmers.
You can still buy the old bulbs.
Depends where you live.
Tony Papantoniou - I’ve still got a small stockpile of them (60W and 100W conventional size with BC caps, plus lots of 35W and 50W quartz halogen with MR11 caps). But as nearly all my fittings now have energy saving lamps (mostly LED with a small number of CFL), I hardly ever need to change lamp bulbs now... It could be in excess of ten years before I need to buy another lamp bulb...
I've had good luck with some of the more recent Philips dimmable bulbs.
Before I changed my dimmer, I put one halogen lamp in with 4 LED lamps in order to make the dimmer effect work. I've found to my cost that when the halogen bulb failed then shortly afterwards one of the LED bulbs would fail. I guess the power surge when the halogen failed went through the LED circuit. Don't expect your LED lamps to last as long as they say, unless they are top quality.
I'm glad those horrid lamps you reviewed last are now pretty much obsolete, they contain mercury, and if they become smashed, they will leak out, not very good for the environment I'd say.