7.62x39 AR vs AK Accuracy Test: Is it the ammo or the gun?
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- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2024
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We take two PSA rifles, one is the KS47 AR and the other is a GF3 PSA AK both chambered in 7.62x39. We conduct an accuracy test of not just the rifles but of some common 7.62x39 ammo.
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This test needed a magnified optic and more distance
You've clearly never seen tests done with iron sights I suppose. If a gun is 1 MOA at 50 yards it's 1 MOA at 500, the shooter on the other hand may not be. It's simple physics.
@@Militaryarmschannel no offense I'm well aware you are more experienced in firearms and shooting. However I have no doubt I've done more long range and can tell you, and long range guys would agree with me. That's not a great accuracy test.
@@clartro No offense taken. I know the long range world quite well. 7.62x39 isn't 6mm PRC. Beyond that, most militaries zero their rifles at 25m-50m. So yes, this is a valid test.
@Seth Rising 250 yards it's pretty damn far with a non magnified red dot optic friend.
@@Militaryarmschannel You're so cocky. You have a massive bias towards the ar. You're at 50 yards acting like a group that's half an inch tighter proves how massively more accurate the ar is. At 50 yards is that a noticeable difference? I'd argue no.
I'm glad this backyard science tried to take out as many variables as possible, different ammo selection, similar optic, same firearm manufacturer (similar manufacturing tolerances). Overall good video that answers an interesting question
Thanks for watching.
Yet the AKM has the slant compensator on that is known to affect grouping. Yes, i know i'm being anal and that ar-15 action is inherently more accurate.
You should another video but a AR-15 vs AK in 556
I was thinking the same thing.
And after that, an AR in 7.62r vs an AK47.
Who’d actually want an AK chambered in 223/556? I’d say one of the biggest advantages to the AK over the AR is the bigger bullet.
@@ClassicalvsTactical same ammo different platform vs different ammo and platform, l don't think yield the same results.
AR vs Galil ACE?
Although they were interesting results, I can't say that I was completely surprised by them. The free floating barrel of the AR pattern rifle is more likely to give better accuracy based on everything that I have ever read, seen, or experienced.
A front end job on an AK (gas block/front sight combo) improves that. Much more consistent barrel harmonics without the FSB hanging on the end.
How did you post this a week ago when the video came out today?
@@alexanderluster402 MAC does an early release for his Patreon supporters.
It's not just that. It's the DGI system meaning the recoil is perfectly horizontal.
no barrel in a gasser is free floated. the handguard on the ar is free floated. had tim rested the ak on the mag or used a mag grip, it would have removed some of that difference. there is a reason east block guys do that and it's not just heat.
I've always thought this should be a test same caliber same ammo, MAC always delivering the best review ever.. This test proves that the 7.62 AK round is very accurate, & both Platforms are plenty accurate for Battle accuracy, thanks Tim.
I agree with most of what you said except the 7.62 x 39 is very accurate... Out of an ak platform the accuracy is pathetic. 2 ish inches at 50 yds? Literally not far from handgun caliber levels of accuracy. I think my sub 2k can shoot a 2" group at 50 yards. All of my 5.56 rifles have been capable of under an inch at 50. I would argue that in an AR or other more accurate platform the ammo is acceptable and seems to get to .300 bo levels but out of most the common rifles the accuracy is quite bad
@@accordv6er he had no magnification My c39 shoots way better than that with a 16 times power scope, veprs will do the same
@@redfirekla fair. VEPRs are wonderful rifles. I want a 54R badly.... Then ammo and rifles went a away. I've had to find satisfaction with a 6.5CM AR10
@@accordv6er Tim had a modified vepr with mag conversion that shot sub moa at 100.
@@accordv6er Do you even shoot?? Not the most accurate but damn good in the right hands.
Aaaaaannnd there goes all of the in stock Golden Tiger and Bernaul ammo
I got 2k wolf mil spec HP yesterday, its made at the barnaul factory, so it should be pretty good too
I hope you bought it a couple of months ago when it was at the $200 per case price range.
@Jones good to know!
I only have one spam can of 7n6 left for my 74 and I'm scared to break into it.... Fortunately I have plenty of Wolf to eat through during these trying times 😂
Golden Tiger is actually Maxwell today. Their stamps are the same and they look alike as well.
I’m shocked no one else tried to go to these measures before, I’m glad you guys went to the effort to do this video. Thanks for the top quality content.
The AK gets more accurate if you drop it in the mud, then leave it in your truck tool box for a summer.
This is why it’s superior
That AK must have been confused by the brass cased ammo. 😝
My wife's mother laughs at both of those rifles. That Sea Monster is only afraid of diets and holy water.
@@Chad-the-impaler Your mo' in law is Nanci Pelosi?!
Damn, sorry about that!
And mine is a hot blue-eyed, strawberry blonde that is 50% Norwegian Viking...
@Jones LMFAO! I was referring to my mother-in-law as well. No Freudian stuff going on here...
@@Knight_of_the_Old_Code well if she's that hot, could one possibly acquire some "stuff"? Asking for a friend.
@@Shadow6a LMFAO
I feel like this was a pretty good representation in the difference of accuracy between both platforms using the same round. Even the most diehard AK guys know the AR is more accurate. 2-3moa is typically what people expect from a good AK, the worst AK's shoot 3-4. More interestingly though, I feel this also brings attention to the fact that not all rifles like all rounds! Why it's nice to get out and test loads before you go stocking up. Find a round your particular rifle likes to be fed.
Im a die hard AK guy and my ARs are more accurate. Its just how it is. I would trust my life with either one.
No one is denying AR being more accurate. But the fact still stands that that AK design is 70 years old while that AR is somewhat modern AR design. Would be better if it was tested on some a bit modern AK design. I would love to see the results of AK 15. It would be also really cool to see AR in 556 vs AK 19 which is also in 556. But now its not possible because of bans.
Bad AKs are much more inaccurate than that lol!
@@vasilije94 The AR was designed in the 1950's. It's a 70 year old design.
@@weasle2904 You don't understand what i wrote. In video he used old AKM for test and a new AR platform. Should have taken new AK platform as well for the test. Would be a lot more interesting and fair.
I was in Barnaul several years ago, nice town. Greetings from Russia!
Thanks for the test and the video. Once again, it seems the ar wins out on precision. However, the ak's accuracy is respectable for a combat rifle. How a 70+ year old design is still relavant as ever today, is amazing. The ar design is 60+ years old now too. Every 2a loving american should have at least one of each.
I love them both. The AK is a classic and a great rifle.
Thanks for the test Tim! I have both the 16'' and 10.5'' KS-47 and love them both but i think my heart will always belong to the ak. I love how simple they are and i love the history and the variations of them from so many regions of the world. Always enjoy your videos brother so keep them coming and i'll keep watching!
Thanks for taking the rounds apart and showing us the differences. That was pretty interesting.
It’s very difficult to mount a proper scope on an AK, but a ransom rest would have eliminated the human error. The video is of great interest. You gave an excellent account of your shooting ability, narrative, content, and conclusions were all well worth listening to, and I thank you.
Great test and thank you for your work on this ! I recently acquired a Zastava ZPAPer' which I love, and it is my only AK. It is truly a very high quality, beautiful firearm. But to your point about things and stuff contacting the barrel on an AK I think that you hit the nail on the head. But when it comes to the topic of accurate barrels and how they are mounted in a rifle, it is always in my mind about an article about the pre '64 Winchester Mod. 70 written by Ross Seyfried sometime around the late 80s or early 90s in Guns and Ammo. He stated in the article that the secret to the inherent accuracy of Model 70s was the forward screw attachment on the underside of the stock that threaded into the sight mounting bulge on the barrel that effectively unitized the barrel with the forward part of the stock, thereby helping to control or dampen somewhat barrel harmonics. Now aside from being beautiful rifles, I possessed at one time a pre '64 Model 70, caliber .270 Win. manufactured in 1948, known as a transitional rifle due to the evolving shape of the safety lever, that was scoped with a Leupold 3X9 vari-x 1. It was the most accurate rifle I owned at the time and was capable of 3/4" groups at 100 yards using my handloads. Now I know there are people now adays that will say " Yeah, that's pretty good ". As for me the experience was akin to my first time with Mary Lou, IF you know what I mean { wink, wink, wink.........and wink again }. And if you do not know what I mean.....give me a call @ BR-549 and I will explain.
It was very relaxing to watch this and I appreciated you looking objectively at this topic while other creator attempts have fell short. Keep up the great content.
Thank you and thanks for watching.
Great comparison! I love the round, especially in the AR platform…
This test needed a ruger american in x39 to introduce a bolt action to really test the ammo aspect
Agreed. A buddy and myself were getting hits at 800 yards on a 12x18 silhouette target with golden tiger 124 gr in his Ruger American. Biggest issue we were having was we had to be absolutely precise with our wind calls and the velocity spread of the ammo was really starting to show itself as elevation but keep in mind at that distance the round has already been subsonic for a good 200 yards so the slightest variation can have massive changes in point of impact. What we gathered from that test is the round isn't any inherently any less accurate than any other cartridge with similar ballistics.
Not asking you to do another video, but I'll bet if you used a Romanian Draco with a 12" barrel and compared it to a 12" 7.62x39 AR they'd be much closer. The shorter barreled AKs don't suffer the barrel whip of the 16" models and have been the most accurate in my experience.
That's true with all shorter barrels including the 12" 7.62 ar.
George Keith I know, I just expect the results would be more similar. Might show that the lack of a free floated barrel isn't the only factor detrimental to the accuracy of an AKM type.
I was completely entertained with this one, Tim. Thanks and great work!
Love my Golden Tiger 7.62x39. Acceptable accuracy, great for long term storage, and best of all very affordable.
Thank you Tim and Jason for everything that you do for us.
Your video came right on time: building my first AR in 7.62x39 and looking for ammo that can perform well. Thank you!
Brass..my 762 ar jams w steel
I have been a bit disappointed with the available 5.45 ammo. The 7n6 was fine for the price, but the newly made stuff didn't seem much better despite the price. Took me 6 months of begging everyone I could think of to get the better stuff imported. Wolf now sells Barnaul made 65gr lacquer and sealant cartridges. My contact at Barnaul USA tells me 65gr Silver Bear should show up in July. The little bit I have been able to shoot seems to be an improvement.
I got a ton of silver bear when I bought my rifle. I've been impressed with it, but it hasn't been easy to find in quantity. For plinking I picked up some Monarch from Academy, which is made by Barnaul. It was a decent price, not anything near 7N6, but obviously not corrosive. My LGS had some Wolf 60 gr that has also run fine in my rifle. I think it came out to almost $0.30/round after tax.
Don't sweat the corrosive stuff. Just run some non-corrosive rounds thru before packing things up. It drastically slows down corrosion, but is not a long term solution.
@@ChiefMiddleFinger yeah I don't typically mind it unless I'm pressed for time. But it's really not a concern anymore since 7n6 is drying up and basically everything else is non-corrosive
@@ChiefMiddleFinger it's an AKM, not a museum piece. run some hot water through the barrel and chamber or Windex and then dry it out and oil it. done and done.
@@Irishcream216 Windex, or any other ammonia is not really necessary. You aren't trying to kill acid, just wash away salt. I just strip mine, hose it out with water and spray all the pieces up good with Ballistol pre-mix 10 parts water to one part Ballistol. Nice thing about Ballistol pre-mix is that you can saturate the components and reassemble them dripping wet with no worries about corrosion.
I Was Disappointed Till You Showed The AK Effective At 250 yrds. IM WILLING TO LIVE WITH THOSE RESULTS. TY
The GT also has a hollow nose which lends to some "interesting" terminal performance. If you ever get bored and feel like grabbing an AK out of the vault you should do some gel tests with those rounds. I think that would be an interesting video. GT is hands down my favorite ammo for AKs
TJ4774 I love Golden Tiger.
With my PSA KS47, I was getting 1"-1.5" groups with 154 grain Wolf or Tulammo SP. This was at 100 yards, using a 4-12 x44 Vortex scope with a UTG Accu-sync mount and a Larue 2-stage MBT trigger. I have found that my KS47 likes the heavier ammunition.
Hey Pinger, I've read that Ar's don't like the heavy stuff, it won't feed, it jams, etc, etc. You haven t had any issues with it doing any of that ?I have a BCA that shoots real good, 1.5 in w/ Tula, but would love to shoot the heavy for hunting, your take on this, thx.
It would be interesting to see if someone like Rob Ski (a primarily AK shooter) got the same results as you did, given your history shooting ARs. Obviously the fundamentals remain the same regardless of what gun youre shooting, but different guns shoot differently.
No. I like this channel but obvious bias. Ive gotten pinpoint accuracy out of my c39v2 with cheap wolf.
@@dankorth1325 Yeah right... I've put all sorts of gucci barrels on aks like FB Radom, Bulgarian and quality US barrels and expecting more than 3 MOA out of an ak is unrealistic. The AK does not have a free float barrel like an AR and the standard size AK barrel is much thinner than AR. I love aks to death and they are certainly minute of bad guy out to 300, but saying that your c39v2 is a tack driver? I'm not buying it.
GREAT VIDEO, MAC!! That was my main point in me building an AR in 7.62x39 cal.. I always felt the AR-15 should have been designed in a larger caliber.. I always preferred using the 7.62 in BOATAIL AMMO design by RED ARMY and the non boat TULA ammo in 154 grain.... Overall , I would rather use brass case 7.62x39 ammo.. But all the Soviet style steel/brass ammo preform great.... And may I add no fail or JAM feed issues in a AR style platform.
Tim, I’d like to see this same test redone with their AK-E. It has an FN chrome lined, cold hammer forged barrel, 90* gas block, ALG trigger, and muzzle brake. See if those enhancements make for a more accurate rifle compared to the KS-47...
I bought a couple thousand rounds of Wolf hollow point and FMJ a few years ago when it was $5 a box, so at the Gunshow yesterday , after selling a Chinese SKS, I had the money to buy a Bear Creek Arsenal AR 7.62x39 upper and an Anderson Lower for a really good price. I have had several SKS, Chinese, Russian and my Romanian one. The Romanian one has a scope and shoots about 2 inch groups, so I am excited about this AR platform to shoot up some of that ammo and for a better scope mounting rail and higher capacity magazines. I ordered a high scope mount to mount a red/green reticle scope and some iron sights on it and some ASC and DURAMAG 30,10, and 5 round magazines. So we will see how it goes.
The cartridge is capable of being accurate, My CZ 527 is very accurate.
I agree cheap steel case brown bear groups under a inch for me
Cheap Tula gives me 1.5" in groups at 100yds in my AR
Same. Also my Ruger Ranch in 7,62x39 does astonishingly well w steel cased.
@@NaNa-tg7tg Believe this or not, I'm actually looking in to the mini-30 tactical as a hunting/ SD gun, ruger fanboy anyway an looking for insight about them, your thoughts would be appreciated since you own one, thx
i grouped .4" and 1300 yards with my century arms
What this video really needed for it to go from a 10 to 11 was a special guest appearance by Rob Ski
Interesting. The AK has much more bulk (bolt/carrier/gas piston) cycling rearwards compared to the AR. This might be a factor.
In your Patreon post for this video you mentioned that the 7.62x39mm AR-15's that don't take AK mags have reliability issues. I heard this too and was nervous to build one but I did anyway and I must have done something right because it's really reliable. I love it. I ended up getting a PSA KS-47 to do a review on and had a rough start with it. A simple fix and it's been super reliable and a really enjoyable rifle to shoot. If I had to do it all again I'd get the KS-47 and call it good and put the money for my 7.62x39mm AR that takes "regular" AR-15 mags and put it toward something else. Thanks for the accuracy comparison video, Tim!
For me the issues I've seen first hand on the conventional AR's with the STANAG type magazines are related to the poor quality of the mags themselves. Perhaps mag technology has improved, but given the mag has to be straight for a couple of inches just to fit into the AR mag well tells me the feed geometry is less than desirable. I wouldn't ever consider one based on past experiences. The AK mag guns, that's another story. It seems companies have mostly gotten them to work quite well with a variety of AK mag types... which likely isn't easy to do because even AK's can have trouble with some mags. Thanks for the support!
Out of 1k rounds, ive only had 10 fail to feed. Some 30 round mags would fail to feed and then work great the next outing. Could need a bit of oiling of the inside to help it. Using acs mags unmodified. I also have the 20 round mags and they seem to work much better.
I’ve covered this on my channel between the KS47 16, 10.5 and 8.5” and then the GF3 16”. Was also 7 different kinds of ammunition. The 10.5” KS47 out performed the 16” GF3.
100 yards, 12x optic
I have a family member who works for PSA, they really love the work they do.
Barnaul is good stuff and loaded decently hot.
Robski just mentioned that it's his favorite AK ammo recently. That might have more to do with it being unavailable.
I wouldnt say hot, more like standard or how it should be. 2350 fps is about where 762x39 is suppose to be
@@bloodking73 That's true. Feels hot in comparison to all the pud loaded stuff out there.
@@naderzein2435 fair enough lol
great video. never fails to blow my mind at some of the nitpicking folks do. thank you for taking the time to do the tests and to a lesser extent sort of reviewing these 2 guns.
Your test would possibly have been more revealing if you had used magnified optics and fired at 100 yards. In my experience bullets often do not completely stabilize until they are farther down range than 50 yards. Red dot sights do not offer the needed accuracy to actually do a test of this type either. Just my 2 cents worth. CMMG makes very good guns and offers their Banshee AR in 7.62x39. It has outstanding accuracy. Takes AK mags, has a bolt sized correctly, and is designed from the beginning for that cartridge. A comparison of their 5.56 offerings against their 7.62x39 would give even better results especially if fired with premium ammo instead of the stuff fired here. A for effort and thumbs up in any event!
Is there a difference in twist rates? The way the actions are built makes a huge difference in accuracy but twist rates might explain why the ak likes a particular weight of bullet.
I agree. But 122-123 grain is pretty standard for an AK. ARs tend to have a wider variety if weights that would put more emphasis on twist rate
You see ammo sensitivity a lot more with non-floating platform due to resonance issues.
The gas piston in the AK adds another variable. A moving part.
Both should be 1 in 9.5", no?
Ask people with a ruger American or CZ 527 7.62x39 can shot very well.
Great video... I have done this test many times with SKS vs AR vs AK across several rifles.
Long story short, the ammo matters and varies for sure... and the manufacturer is very important. The Zastava M70 is the most accurate AK I have or have shot. The Windham AR in 7.62x39 is the most accurate off the shelf AR I own. Then I got a custom A2 (20" stainless) barrel cut from McGowan, and it is extremely accurate out to 300 yards. Having tested everything from Wolf to Norma Match, the most accurate across all 7.62x39 guns I have is Vympel made Russian ammos (sealed MaxTec, Golden Tiger, and red box Red Army Standard.) All 124 grain.
The only thing a ks47 needs is a raptor charging handle.
Agreed. I run the Raptor CH on all my rifles
Converting it to side charging works much better IMO. I run a DDC Hard Charger on mine and it makes things much easier
Yeah that 308 spring is a bit stiff. I just got a jp silent captured spring for mine to get rid of the cheeze grater sound from the buffer
Love my 7.62/39 BCR AR upper with PSA A2 lower..great comparison video!!
The real test would be to try one of the CZ, Ruger, or Howa mini bolt guns and see what they can do.
I did a video with the CZ a year or more ago.
All capable of sub-moa, even with select steel.
A buddy and myself were getting hits on a 12x18 silhouette target at 800 yards with golden tiger 7 62x39 and a Ruger American Ranch rifle and the times we missed, it wasn't by much. The biggest issue was making precise wind calls and at that distance, the velocity extreme spread and standard deviations were really starting to show themselves on target in regards to elevation. Keep in mind that the round at that point has already been subsonic for a good 200 yards so the slightest variations in velocity will be plainly observable. With an accurate shooting platform, the round isn't inherently any less accurate than any other round with similar ballistics but your environmentals are going to have a more noticeable effect than something firing a more aerodynamic projectile at a higher velocity.
*screams in Brandon Herrera*
NOOO! RIFLE IS FINE! Hahaha
This was some very interesting testing, especially with those strange results from the S&B ammo! Great video as always, much love from Texas!
bought a PSA AK, they seem high quality and when in stock their shipping is fast.
Ive been loading 7.62x39 SST and making cloverleafs at 100yrds with a 10.5" BCA upper. Soon ill get a 16" upper. Id like to compare it to an AK of the same length because i am extremely impressed with the sst reloads.
I know you won’t see this comment butt as I watched you shoot the drum in the KS-47 I saw your sight wiggle. Wonder if it is tight?
It looks like it's wiggling, but it's not. The sight is quite tight on the gun. I saw what looked like wiggle in the video during editing and went and got the rifle to double check, and it's still tight. 👍
Had the same thought.
Looks like the bill of his hat is causing an optical illusion as if the optic is wiggly.
In regard to this, I know youtube makes for some built in image stabilization. I've seen a few cell phone vids that look fairly stable, but the frame of the shot is wiggling about everywhere.
Some of the reivews from RegularCarReviews also has some of the same wiggling issues. It's a feature!
I have experienced similar results, the gas systems are different. Piston systems need to be tuned but are awesome for suppressed, while gas impinge systems seem to be more accurate in my experience.
Close enough for government work. I’ll take one of each.
A good friend just bought a new Ruger bolt action in 7.62 x 39. Very accurate with handload
Brandon Herrera from a k guys going to be pissed. LMFAO love that dude though
Nyet. Rifle is fine.
The A.K mother lover
Dudes a chode
James from TFB has enter the chat.
Homey got the coof!!!! Lolol
Thanks for the knowledge, Tim. I will stick with the AR platform !!!!!!!
It would have been interesting to see a Bren 2 in the mix.
I think I'm going to compare the Bren 2 directly to the AKM in a video.
@@Militaryarmschannel i would add the gun it replaced - the Vz.58 to the mix or replace AKM by the Vz. alltogether :)
i think it would be interesting comparing the Bren2 in 7.62 to modernized Vz to see if the change was actually worth it.
i love shooting both of these rifles with Irons. AKM is so comfy and the AR has sweet sweet sights
What are your thoughts on the quality of the PSA AK?
I've spoken about it in recent videos. I've put Russian wood on it and a bakelite grip... which means I really like it. 😃
Love my GF3. I picked up one of the "blemish" ones for about $500 and I've got around 1200 rounds of Wolf And Tula through it with zero issues.
@@saucemaster2 GF3 is a little finicky with magazines. AK-E doesn't have that problem. Not sure why because both are PSA rifles.
@@donaldvosburgh8337 Mines been fine with Pmags, Korean Steel, and surplus Polish polymer mags so far. But from what I can gather most types of aks run into mag issues at some point and might require a little filing on the mag catch. Thats just my experience though.
@@donaldvosburgh8337 WAAAY more than a little finicky! My brand new, from PSA armory AK ONLY accepted the one and only Pmag that it came with. It wouldnt even accept other Pmags i already had. Essentially, i had a 30 round SKS. Called customer service, they told me to watch one of their DIY vids on how to mod all of my other mags to fit. Crazy! Operator refused to let me dend it back for repairs til i did that. I called back and spoke to a manager. He let me send it back for repairs. The initial results were that it accepted some but not all of the various mags that my Century Arms AKs would load. Over time ive jammed, punched and crammed the "no go" mags in anyway over time and eventually the rifle DID accept my collection of steel and polymer, new and used, P Mag/Tapco/Communist/Korean mags. But it took time. Im ok with it...i guess. It works. BOTTOMLINE: Cant say ill buy another PSA firearm again.
Thanks for the information, I have a DB15 7.62 and I don’t have any complain
I figured that free-floating barrel of the AR was going to give it a good edge over the AK. Still both are more than capable for practical accuracy ranges (as 9-Hole Reviews have demonstrated repeatedly on a variety of weapon systems including ARs and AKs). My only gripe with the KS47 is the location of the charging handle since it's a T style, very awkward to work when you need to reload since it doesn't have a last round bolt hold open function. Other than that more than a worthy choice if you want 7.62x39, especially if you don't want an AK.
Still, if you are looking at an AK but are worried it's going to perform terribly, quite a lot of good quality manufacturers popping out and as demonstrated, effective accuracy. Not one inch groups but adequate for its intended role.
I'm very interested to see how Arsenal's upcoming AKs which promise a free-floating barrel would perform, and according to sources the AK12 and variants has a free float handguard. We've seen what the AK can do with its standard barrel config, so the newer evolved breed should be an interesting take.
this is exactly why i never understood the ak vs ar arguement. why compare a modern gun to one thats about 80 years old. the 47 pattern does exactly what it was built to do. hit a man size target under 500. i believe it was clint smith who said any rifle is usually more accurate than the shooter. that being said, it would be pretty cool to see how ar's would compare to something like the ak12.
There is something called the DDC hard charger that will extend the charging handle to the left side of the upper receiver. It would make for a more practical ks47
I don't understand why Ps47 and mutant don't come with a left side charging handle. Many ar 15s have that option and it is more needed on these ak ar hybrids
@@igotmeeseeks677 I mean the AR-15 was developed not too long after the AK, give or take the late 50s before the M16 came around the early 60s. The principles of both rifles designs are different, and the philosophy of use have been debated for many years.
Personally, I don't want to be on the business end of either. Some people will argue what's more effective, what has a better round but at the end of the day, someone who knows what both can do won't need to argue. You can bet your bum that most would have extra rounds on tap if they didn't get the job done and the fundamentals carry the systems further.
I can certainly agree there! I was more speaking to the fact the 47 platform hasn't changed much at all through the years where as the ar platform has seen a multitude of improvements through the years. Everything from twist rates to mag designs. It just feels more like an apples to oranges debate, vs if we were to compare a modern platformed ak to an ar. The ak accuracy myth was smashed imo when Brandon Herrera created the ak224, the 1000yrd ak. It proved an ak is just as effective when given the chance to be. Modern ak/are platforms are equals these days, at least I think so anyways.
It's always interesting to see how different mfgs result in different groups and different point of impact changes. Some guns prefer some brands/bullet weights, that's for sure.
Ammo and the shooter seems to matter most for AK accuracy.
Sighted in a new red dot on my Vepr on Saturday and got very fine accuracy from a bag rest. With my eyes, more than accurate enough.
Twist rates would be nice to know.
@E S how about barrel lenght of these carbines?
I was able to get hits a couple hundred yards away with iron sights... some time ago. But I'm you're age and recently I've had to begin placing optics on everything I own...it sucks getting older.
Oh I just got used to the idea of any optics like 10 yrs ago, yeah getting old sucks, but its better than the alternative, lol.
I love Aks. To improve the accuracy just retrofit them with an AR upper and also an AR lower.
I do enjoy MACs videos. Always fun to watch. Thankful to Tim for always pushing out new content to watch!
"The 7.62x39 is inaccurate."
"CZ 527 has entered the chat."
I did a video on the 527. I wasn't all that impressed, it was about as good as the AR with the Barnaul. Now the rifle sits...
I mounted a necg peep sight on mine and I've been pretty impressed with it's performance. Mine shoots pretty impressive groups at 50 yards with wolf and Tula. Maybe I just got lucky.
@@Militaryarmschannel MINE AT 50 YARDS PUT THE WOLF COPPER HOLLOW POINTS IN ONE HOLE, I WISH I HAD SHOT IT 100 YARDS TO SEE WHAT IT WOULD DO. I THINK I GOT LUCKY WITH MINE, THE RUGER M77 HOWEVER, DIDN'T SHOOT FOR SHIT AT THAT DISTANCE. MY M1500 HOWA REMAINS TO BE TESTED.
@Sam G. I'm going to mount a small optic like a 2-7x32 in mine to see if the accuracy holds up at a greater distance.
@@PastorDr.MartinSsempa THAT'S FUNNY YOU SAID THAT, THAT'S EXACTLY THE SCOPE MAGNIFICATION I HAVE ON MY CZ, WITH THEIR SCOPE MOUNT SND REAR SIGHT, YOU CAN'T JUST PUT ANY SCOPE YOU WANT ON IT. IT ALSO HAS TO LOOK AND FEEL RIGHT FOR THE BALANCE WITH THAT RIFLE.
I keep checking PSAs website every single day for an AKE to pop up. Both you and Rob Ski have really sold me on those rifles and I’m itching to get my hands on one.
So many biased responses here, it's amazing that you guys pay good money for these videos and he dared go against you.
Oh wait...
Haha, it's the internet man. We have thick skin. Thanks for the support and for watching.
I have an AR-47 (Frankenstein rifle) on a standard AR lower with Primary Arms 1-6x24 ACSS 7.62x39 scope runs like a champ. I have shot that rifle out to 600yd recreating the IV8888 test with wolf Polyformance 124gr, 2330fps ammo from years ago. I got the same results. I could hit everything out to 500yd, after that the round went subsonic. My groups with my gun at 200yd is 3in to 3.5in with Red Army Standard 124gr 2427fps. I Love my AR-47 and Primary Arms Scopes. Get yourself an AR-47 rifle you will love it.
As a conservative Canadian I'm extremely jealous of your 2nd amendment and of your President !
2A is a mere shadow of what it's supposed to be, but thanks! And yeah, Trump is light years better than any liberal!
I built an AR in 7.62 x 39. Hornady sst 123 grain shoots about a 1-1.5 inch group. Ironically, Wolf 123 HP shoots .75inch groups! I love the accuracy with this cheap ammo!
Prediction before watching the video: AR will have *marginally* better accuracy, but they will be overall very close. Guessing the gap will be bigger with nicer ammo.
Edit: Pretty much as expected
in actual combat shooting from hands and not bags the difference will be zero as the shooter error will have much bigger impact than miniscule difference free float and different system has on mechanical accuracy...
which is the reason ALL military firearms from last 30-ish years adopted piston gas system instead of DI, freefloat barrels and such are nice to have on DMR, but for infantry grunt rifle its pointless to use less reliable and more maintenance sensitive system to gain "advantage" normal soldier will never make use of ...
Great video! I think one thing this shows is that the PSA AK's have pretty darn good accuracy. I don't have one, yet...
Rifles are designed for accuracy. Machine guns are not. The AR was designed to be a rifle primarily and secondarily a machine gun. The AK was designed to be a machine gun first and secondarily a rifle. The AK is the only select-fire rifle that has full-auto rather than semi-auto in the next position after "safe" which shows what it's design priority is. You have compared apples to oranges.
Myself I experienced a awaking about 4 years ago with the AR47. Hard hitting ammo still plentiful and cheap today ! Using a Radical Firearms upper, PSA lower, 4-8 scope I can hold 1 MOA at 50 yards. Wild boar kills are usually one shot kills using SP ammo. No comparison to my comm bloc AK47's.
Imagine using a red dot and calling it an Accuracy test. Lol. Before long, Tim will be hanging out with Nancy Pelosi in the dementia ward.
I suppose you're never seen an accuracy test done with iron sights either.
Imagine being so ignorant do you think magnification equals more accuracy
@@Militaryarmschannel 🤣 epic
@@gunsgalore15 He didn't say anything about magnification. But A telescope with magnification and traditional crosshairs would provide a much more quantifiable test than a red dot where the dot includes the entire target.
Military Arms Channel Wait...so you think it wouldn’t have been better to use a high quality scope? Ok. You said you were going to try and take out human error as much as possible, and the a far better way to have done that would have been with a quality magnified optic. This isn’t a difficult concept.
It is the ammo mostly. I have hand loaded for my SLR101s and regularly printed .75" five shot groups with a CMR AK762 1-4x optic @109 yards. Using WPA 123 HP it prints 1.75" to 2" at the same distance. The AR platform is inherently more accurate with its overall design, but if you hand load and find a barrel's harmonic note, almost any rifle can be more accurate than previous thought.
Bullet weight in 122/123gr allow little bearing surface on bore lands compared to many cartridges. This tends to make for wobble downrange like a football bucking wind. The 156 gr is slower but more stable. You will find the same feature in the .308 Win with 150 gr vs 168/172 gr bt.
There was significant more movement when firing the AK over the AR. You need to put them in a lead sled so the gun cannot move while firing.
David H its part of the stock design, inline allows less jump. No matter what you do,the AK will never be as good. As yes,ive built aks with “precision” in mind and they still never got impressive groups. Accept its a grunts rifle. And yes,rack grade m16s typically group the same as russian rack grade AKs. The civillian world is where its a huuuuuge difference.
Nice comparison Tim. Thank you! I got a KS47 10.5" 'pistol' last year and have been very happy with it. Paid extra for the polished trigger and am getting 3-4 MOA shooting Wolf poly FMJ. I'm impressed.
Love my KS 47. 8000 rounds no cleaning so far
TheInkCanvas yes just testing it it was the first psa and only I own AK 47 so I was trying to see if I like it and how long it would last
Thanks Tim.
Semper Fi!
Been telling some of my buddies that the AR chambered in 7.62 is more accurate than the AK, that's why I currently own 2, an M&P 10 and the PSA. The M&P does shoot tighter groups for me I've noticed but it's only a at best an 5/8s of an inch at 50 yards.
I just prefer the AR as well, it's a better design and easier to take down and do maintenance on than the AK.
Eugene Stoner and John Moses Browning, two of America's greatest.
M&P 10 in 7.62x39?
I think that MAC nailed it when he talked about the free floating barrel vs. non free floating.
I'll go to my usual comment on 7.62 vs. 5.56, I'll take an AK in the woods and the AR in the open (standard chamberings of course).
Love the Golden Tiger - the green lacquered round has always appealed to me. Thanks MAC for the test!
Thanks for watching!
I have them both.. And you gave a fair review. Thanks!
The varied performance of each through the different types of ammo was a good test. Some guns don’t like certain ammo. I’ve seen that in a few different guns IB shot. Good video.
The free float handguard you were resting on on the AR vs the barrel mounted handgaurd on the AK will make a difference in accuracy. Should have used an old school handguard on the AR or found one of the very rare free float handguards for AKs. Or done a mag hold on the AK and rested on the mag.
I also Agree it would have been better with a magnified optic. The whole aim small miss small thing is real.
Would love to see this redone with guns that have similar style handguards and match grade hand loads. That with at least a 4x optic to take out all the variables possible.
MAC I have been wondering about this exact same question and the results of this test came out about how I guessed it would. Thanks MAC
Pretty good video and data. I may be able to help explain the shift in the group that you said you couldn't explain. The rifle is a mechanical device and obviously, the two rifles are different machines. What we don't have is the velocity that each selected cartridge is delivering. So, to explain the shift, the AK is a "sloppier" machine (which produces incredible reliability) and when using a hotter cartridge (even a small increase) it can shift the group quite a bit. Comparing those two particular rifles, the test clearly shows that the AR performed better, which is no surprise. The AR is has a free-floating barrel, a standard flash hider, and much tighter tolerances, lighter moving parts, and smoother action. The AK is not free-floating, has heavier moving mechanical parts, and has a slanted muzzle brake (which is supposed to push the barrel down slightly and "compensate" for the sloppy mechanics of the AK platform), and has a grossly different weight distribution. With all this information in mind, the shift is likely caused by hotter ammo, poor weight distribution, and sloppy mechanics on the AK. Not bad for a design that is several decades old though. I have done this test on my own using a 7.62 AR platform to compare VARIOUS AK rifles using the same ammo. The goal was to find the most accurate AK rifle as I was abandoning the AR platform completely. I found that several parts can greatly reduce the sloppy mechanics of the AK 47, albeit at a cost of significant weight. Using forged parts, a quality milled receiver, a quality compensator, and rigid high-quality polymer accessories instead of wood, greatly reduced the "sloppy" mechanics of the AK, WHILE maintaining its legendary reliability.
I also liked that you added to the end some shots at 250M as that is what rifles are meant for... longer distance shots. In my OPINION, using a red dot on a rifle is less practical than a mid to long-range optic. I would love to see this same test firing at targets at 200M-300M and using magnified optics, conducted by someone else so I had more data to compare =]. My most accurate AK rifle is a C39V2 with Polish all forged parts, Magpul accessories for rigidity, durability, and better grip (wider), a JMAC compensator/flash hider which is quite incredible on its own, and a Primary Arms 3x Gen III prismatic optic with a reticle designed specifically for 7.62mm x 39mm cartridges. It will stack impacts at 50 yards and can easily hit 500M targets quickly back to back. It's funny that we both chose Primary Arms for an optic and RS Regulate for the mount. RS makes a mount that actually fits on the C39V2 proprietary rail. It and the optic still hold zero after being taken off and put back on countless times, a little over a year of use, and a little more than 3,000 rounds fired. Primary Arms and RS Regulate make great high-quality products, as well as Magpul and JMAC.
Currently, I wouldn't choose another rifle over the AK for a battle rifle/all-purpose rifle. I had the M4 fail several times in very inopportune moments and I won't let that happen again. The AK would not have failed to operate in the same conditions and that's all it took for me. If I ever pick up competition rifle shooting, no doubt I will build an AR for THAT specific task. I hope the info and opinions help anyone who reads this =] Train Train Train
Got to love reset sound on AK. Almost as loud as a shot itself.
Would be interesting to see how big a group AKM would have if it had a 103 muzzle brake. By all accounts it's a very effective muzzle device that really tames the recoil
Fucking FINALLY, someone who compares these with the same ammo. Would love to see this comparison with other calibers as well like .223
I guess the take away is that the AR is considerably more accurate than the AK but at the same time both platforms have piss poor accuracy. My Tikka T3 would be shooting through the same hole at 50 yards.
Tikkas are fantastic. Remember that these are both made by PSA, so they’re hardly match Rifles. I have a couple Larues that will hang with most of my bolt guns (actually outshoot my Tikka, but barely). I don’t know what the “most accurate” AK would be....
Would be interesting to add a Vz58 in the mix. Thanks for the interesting video!
Thanks for posting. Lots of knowledge passed.
I enjoyed the cartridge breakdown!
For reference: PWS MK116 MOD 2-M -Caliber: 7.62x39 GAS PISTON 1:10 barrel twist rate with Trijicon ACOG® 3x24 BAC Riflescope - 7.62 x 39mm / 123 Grain Ballistic Reticle TA50-C-400235 Low Height, Red Crosshair Reticle, Tritium / Fiber Optics Illuminated 50-yard group firing Hornady Black 7.62x39mm Ammo 123 Grain SS, it will group 1/2 inch consistently.
Another American made rifle but uses proprietary 7.62×39 DURAMAG SS™ magazines but it too is a long-stroke gas piston like the AK-47. Your two selected rifles' price-points match much more closely and a better choice for a comparison. Nevertheless, the PWS is a real-deal SHTF battle-rifle. I must be honest, It has never tasted steel-cased ammunition so, factor that in.I do have an extra parts kit on ice should I need to use steel-cased ammunition. How is the PSA's extractor holding up using steel case in drum magazines?