Why would God even want to be worshipped by finite, flawed individuals anyway? A perfect being requires no worship, since it is complete and has neither want, nor need.
The Apistevist I'm inclined to go even farther, along with DM2525. A morally upstanding being would find the notion that it hurts those who do not worship it a grave insult.
The Apistevist (edit) I did, it was really way out there. I think the ending was a tad optimistic...even when clearly face to face with a god, Theist may still be unable to react out of character.
_Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child._ -- Robert A. Heinlein As always, most excellent! Thanks to you both, TheraminTrees and QualiaSoup!
Troubleshooter125; I've seen you around in other places like Steve Shives' channel. Good to see you here too! You make really smart and thoughtful comments, and I enjoy reading them.
Broke: "Blood is thicker than water" Woke: "The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb" (the bonds you form of your own volition are more valuable than your blood ties)
That's been something I've been gnawing on since I took a high school psychology class where unconditional love was presented as morally superior in an academic setting. At the time I was just starting to get used to the idea that things that you struggle for inherently have more personal value. Of course there's another side to that. Not one person ever asked to be born. They were thrust into the world with an inborn terror and anguish surrounding the idea of leaving it, instead destined to struggle constantly, ultimately to avoid that exit, against their will, roped into the game of existence. As the ones who forced that burden upon them, it is a parent's duty to repay that debt in love and kindness ("unconditional love"). And of course, like anything else conditional, antisocial people can exploit conditional "love" for personal gain or the harm of others. Of course, that implies the feeling of love is not merely conditional but counterfeit, so it isn't an attack on conditional love- instead it is consistent with the well-deserved attack on counterfeit emotion.
@@vitriolicAmaranth I've found most parents fall into two categories. The parent(s) is either naive, their intentions good, but their skills in raising & protecting a little human is realistically minimal. Or that parent(s) is selfish. They either want a kid to fix a relationship, for some pointless purpose (aka religious/cult/last name expectations), to get love/attention that they never had from others, or to save them by making them "more responsible". This who are naive parents, question those who don't want to be parents. And those who are actually selfish parents, tend to call those who don't want to bring kids into this world selfish. Point is, I don't believe I would have given my consent to be born. Why would I do that to another person? Especially when you're supposed to love them more than the air you breathe.
@@cya.6616 Original QUOTE; "the blood of the covenant is thicker than water of the womb".He is, (everythinglikerules), saying that your choice to love God is stronger than "family blood". The vast majority of people follow the religion of their parents/community/state. Children do not chose to be indoctrinated.
@@hazelsunderstood6784 I would argue there's a third kind: blissful unaware or uncomprehending of the weight of the decision to create another life. My parents had 1 kid, then after 4 yrs went "it needs a friend" so made my sister, and then 3 yrs later accidentally got pregnant with me and went "no harm in keeping it, right? We can afford it" (this was in a pro choice household w/no abuse or neglect btw). My entire existence is based around a shrug. It's hysterical to think about.
There is a subconcept called "Fleas", which refers to when those who are under a narcissist's power for a while, will start to take on some of those unhealthy narcissistic traits themselves (often as a defensive strategy). Once you've escaped, & come to recognize some of these traits in yourself, it can be difficult to rid yourself of these "fleas". But what separates you from a narcissist, is that you actually want to.
I picked up loads of fleas from my narcissistic step-father and my enabling mother and I'm trying to squish them one by one. I basically thought I was a monster too when I realized just how much they'd rubbed off on me.
roidroid ... Excellent point. I cringe when I remember how I snapped and became even more evangelistic than I was required to be! I've apologized to a couple school friends, but the damage done to my kids and grandkids is not fixable.
That’s what brought me here. I don’t think I was born a narcissist but I definitely have acted as one for a lot of my life and I’m hoping it’s because I was raised Mormon and it’s a bunch of fleas
Michael Call I know your comment is five months old, and by now you may have been able to move beyond this point, or even been told the same thing I’m about to say. But just in case: the fact that you are looking for ways to change means you’re way ahead of any narcissist. You may have exhibited narcissistic traits, but, if what I’ve learned is true, actual narcissists would never deign to believe they should change.
@@kathryngeeslin9509 I was a grey rock for alot of my life, and am still learning how to feel. Ive gotten that from people too, except most times they'll get angry because they think im being sarcastic.
Funny, I was sitting in a serious social science/ anthropology course on the development of religion many years ago and the professor related a story how he skipped church on a Sunday to fish with his father. Being a young boy he asked his mother why would it be a sin to do such a thing and she asked him to ponder what kind of god would take offense at such a thing. The question led him quickly down the road to what most atheists would call the rational conclusion. Isn't it strange that just a bit of pondering and reflection can drive away the darkness but so few people are willing to do so?
Harry Woodman As far as I can tell, the rituals & traditions of successful religions are meant to replace unconstrained reflection. By conditioning a person to believe that following rules & constraining thought to only examine a limited scope of religious-friendly subjects, that person rarely considers critical examination of what they’ve been doing or why. When all you have to do is follow rules to achieve acceptance, why reconsider the purpose behind the game you’re playing.
I think the thing that struck me most as a child faced with being forced to go to church was the idea that any god would allow billions of people to be sentenced to an eternity of hell when they were simply born in the wrong place. The audacity of such a god (not to mention how racist it is), gave me the revelation that even if such a god exists, I wouldn't want anything to do with it. And the same thing basically can be said for any theist religion.
MechaGrexZillas they may reach that conclusion but I doubt they'd be justified in doing so. The only time to reach a gnostic conclusion on a proposition is when there is ample evidence for that proposition. Doing otherwise just screams, "flawed epistemology." On the plus side, believing in a deistic, passive God is less likely to make someone legislate their beliefs or promote many of the harmful practices that come from highly specified theistic traditions so if its a choice between two evils...
Some people have strong emotional ties to religion. Is it possible to upturn your whole life, your friends (so called), and family, on reasoning? Yes but it's hard. Also, you essentially condemn your deceased ancestors to death once you drop religion... which unfortunately it is likely they are...
@@CombiHarvester-mo4jh okay, that's a new one for me. How would what I do today affect my previously dead ancestors? If you are specifically referring to what I wrote about billions in history being condemned to and eternity of torture, all for the crime of being born in the wrong place, that was referring to peoples around the world who never got to learn about (insert religious book). It has nothing to do with whatever I do.
The bible gives zero incentive for why God placed the tree into the garden as if we are supposed to piece a plot hole free explanation together ourselves. All the serpent did was give Eve a small push. The rest is history.
@@BL-sd2qw i would know, there was this one guy who said there might have been 9 flavors of h*ck or something, where he personally met a lot of dead celebs (plus a half dead one :D) heard he developed a god complex, retconning himself to be muhammad lite or something
God, Who is holy, gave everyone He created freewill and everything He created was made with beauty and has limits. God knew man would sin as we all have. He wrote Himself in our story knowing man would choose to reject Him and He alone Chose to forgive those who put their faith in Him. The world was created without the need of our opinion and therefore our opinion regarding the truth will not change the truth. Jesus came speaking the truth, living out that truth, dying so we could come into His eternal truth. It's all one's choice. There is life and death. Fire is beautiful with many benefits yet it also burns.
Well, they may not be actively against you, but they are always lying. Maybe they've also been lied to by a millennial chain of "don't worry about it" and they actually think what they're saying it's true. Just because there's poison doesn't mean there's malice, but always avoid it because it's still bad for you.
@@UnlimitlesslyFunnyDude In your own words, how would you describe the true benefits that you received from having had the covid vaccines that those who had none missed out on/went without?
Only folks that struggle with delusions of infallibility (the whole "I can't be wrong! thing) and delusions of intellectual and/or moral superiority will have a "problem" w those that apply critical thought.
I cannot begin to describe the profound effect your words have had on my thinking. I was already an atheist by the time I found your channel, but you've helped me to further refine and define my positions on morality, reasoning, religion, thought, abuse, and so much more. Thank you for all you do to make a confusing world more clear and understandable.
Tbh I'm mostly here for the stuff about the psychology of abuse, but it's similarly enlightening and reassuring for me. I used to be an atheist and could still be mistaken for one but I was a real firebrand too, so most of that aspect of these videos isn't new to me.
1:44 "We were repeatedly told they both knew our minds better than we did." I'm reminded of a line from the film The Truman Show: "You never had a camera in my head!"
Good point, but I'd like to also mention that a parent who tells us what we're thinking or feeling is in effect commanding us to think or feel that way. It is an astounding level of intrusion and attempted control over the infant/child, and one that makes it difficult for the developing child/teen/young adult to know who they really are. Which renders them unsure of themselves, and highly vulnerable not only to the destructive parent's continuing control, but also that of predatory personalities who find such docile, confused people useful.
WWZenaDo Voice of experience here. Not only are you correct, but it appears such monsters leave some kind of "mark" that their kind can sense. Even adults who break away and do not emulate such behavior or subject themselves to it are targeted by others who see them as well trained potential victims and are confused when they cannot take control. While it's easy to send them packing, there's always another one waiting, who is just as confused and surprised even if he observed the previous failure. Don't like to think I give off a victim vibe, and am told I don't, but have drawn these things for decades (thank you mother). Marked for life.
@Kathryn Geeslin wrote: "but it appears such monsters leave some kind of "mark" that their kind can sense." Definitely! I've observed that in my own life, and it's been commented upon by the various RUclips channels that focus on narcissists, too (although not in those exact terms). I like your description - it fits so well. I suspect that one trigger for these predators is a kind (or apologetic) approach to people in general. When I acquired a kind, loving surrogate mother, one of the first things she said to me (before we even became friends) was that I was always saying "I'm sorry" - and she said she was going to knock that phrase right out of my vocabulary. She was right, too - after I learned a lot more about the abuses directed towards me as an infant and child, I realized my mother hated my very existence (although she found me useful to force my father back into the marriage). So I learned to apologize for my very existence - a horrible form of abuse. I suspect most narcissists imprint that sort of damage upon their offspring, since narcissists can't be bothered with trying to care for anyone else.
WWZenaDo. I used to say "I'm sorry" a lot too, partly because I always felt guilty (mother and church), partly just habit; broke the habit mid 20's, rapidly reduced the guilt but with so much of it, well, still a work in progress. But I keep apologies to when they're due. Still, that could be it, thank you, I can come across apologetic without a word. I want to be kind, considerate, but never a doormat, and it grows tiresome being the one singled out by these so confidently. Of course, advantage and disadvantage to everything. It helped as a job steward to identify which managers needed careful watching, and helped in dealing with them successfully. I loved surprising them. And they had to deal with my mother when she tried to enter a security building. I'll look into some of those sites on narcissistic individuals.
Agreed - and there are some people who are just so abusive that they target anyone, for any small imagined slights. Or the parasitic ones try their sad story on everyone - and see who responds with the most sympathy. It's difficult at times to tell who really needs help, and who is sitting on their rear end waiting for a kind person to come along, so the parasite can take advantage of them.
Brilliant video, thanks! A few years ago, I had dealings with a person who really messed up my mind. Learning about narcissism, manipulation and cognitive dissonance is what saved me. Then a few months later the penny dropped, and I realized the group to which I belonged was using the exact same manipulation techniques. Six months ago I left the Jehovah's witnesses.
Good for you. I've said before that the JWs have benefitted from a benign sheep-in-sheep's-clothing image - but I find the organisation one of the most extreme examples of destructively manipulative ideological groups. One of the greatest sadnesses about narcissism is that it seems most effective on the kindest, most empathic people. Some of the JWs I've encountered have come across as some of the most kind-hearted individuals - but horribly lost psychologically, within a poisonous organisation.
@@TheraminTrees i dont know how youd make sense of this. i find that im the type who wants to be "good". and being good for a narcissist is different then being good. its rather being good for the reward, the praise. anyways i had trouble leaving christianity because i was submitting to the abuse an being good. so after that when i spotted other religions with similar reward systems, where if you submit you get a reward it was like... i was attracted to them in the way that... i was taught how to get to heaven is to ignore abuse and to let it happen without calling it out. honestly sounds a bit like the methods the dominant uses in sexual abuse as well. so yeah it felt like a true religion, a "good" religion consists of a situation where theres abuse. where the followers are never really good enough but by some crazy means eventually maybe achieve the final prize. i felt as though the only way id get to heaven was through giving up myself. i was almost addicted to the cycle. so... its honestly hard to get out of the christianity cult thing because it just feels right. im used to that reward system i see it in my dad too. hes addicted to christianity and the religion, because its like the whole abrahamic narrative can almost cause like a high. i guess it feels good to him, the story of like people being lost, god redeems them, an epic tale. and why does it catch our eye? its a familiar concept. that work for your salvation concept is familiar, it feels right, feels good. thats the only euohoria we ever knew. pleasing fathers. (my dad had a very very unpleasable and abusive father)
The analogy of a parent who "just wants a relationship" and is yet removed and uninvolved in your life is a really good point. Yet its not that different with a god who "just wants a relationship" but we don't see , hear, or perceive this god with our senses. Only the mind game of "is this god, the devil, or my own thoughts" is what we have to go on.
the way yall compare manipulative humans and manipulative deities is incredible. i guess its because manipulative humans created the deities but the parallels are so fascinating to me. yall help a lot of people with these vids :) thanks
I found the brief discussion of Worship (19:47) most percipient. When will we, both as individuals and societies, come to the realization that the attitude of worship is unhealthy? When will we refuse to bow our heads, and choose to stand erect? When will we rise, wipe the dust from our knees and resolve never to bend them again for man or god? Again I refer to the magnificent orator, Robert Green Ingersoll, who observed: “The church demands worship-the very thing that man should give to no being, human or divine. To worship another is to degrade yourself. Worship is awe and dread and vague fear and blind hope. It is the spirit of worship that elevates the one and degrades the many; that builds palaces for robbers, erects monuments to crime, and forges manacles even for its own hands. The spirit of worship is the spirit of tyranny…Whoever worships, abdicates.” Individuality, 1873
Great poetry in Ingersoll's words, isn't there? And all the more powerful for being real and illuminating - unlike religious scripture, which uses poetry to distort and conceal.
@@mozesmarcus6786 Clearly, this is not what was discussed in this video. What WAS discussed was worship...simple as that. Do not inject a strawman argument by throwing in a distinction to something that isn't even the subject of the video...this adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.
Job is an amazing book for revealing the Biblical God's true character. When he finally shows up to confront Job over his perplexity, after destroying his house and all his goods and killing all his children, he actually gets sarcastic! That's twisting the knife, particularly since Job was perfectly willing to be submissive as it was. Not to mention a lie. God's sarcasm was directed at convincing Job that as a puny, limited human he could never hope to understand the vast perspective and purposes God has for the world, but we know from the prologue that all Job's suffering was just to facilitate a lousy bet. It's like the plot of _Trading Places._
Cody, it was God, you can't say "Well, I told Satan to rough you up a little bit, he didn't have to, he was just following my command...I wasn't the one who actually did it." Well, I guess with that logic Charlie Manson should be a free man.
I'm glad you brought that up, God told him he could murder his whole family. Now, Lets go to human court...I'll make this is short as possible... Lets say I have Dog chained up in my yard, Tax man comes by, I unchain my Dog and command it to kill the Tax man. Am I at fault?
@@Texag64ell, yeah, being wrong makes you a bad teacher. Lets try it more your way My loyal employee comes over to my place with my Dog Satan tied up... My Dog Satan starts barking and barking and growling, sure I have him tied up...but lets just see what he does if I let him go on my loyal employee Oh shit, didn't see that coming duuuuhhhhhhhhhh
Tinhuviel it should be in every school of the world, with an added part/counterpart on politicians for more secular countries. Though in the USA’s case, you seem to need both :/ EDIT : I first thought this video didn’t point out narcissism and its consequences in the political landscape but I came back on my judgement past the second half of the video.
@@nathanjora7627 We also need to have a reckoning (in the US) with the hatred towards those who are not religious. I wonder how many presidents and senators and reps, etc, would lose their support if it was found they weren't religious. I think of the hate that the Muslims reps have gotten and then think that any atheist would get it twice as bad.
Emerald kat Yep... Honestly, for all the things I dislike the USA for, I have infinitely more pity thinking about what a great project was ruined utterly by ignorant bigots. I hope you’ll be able to make your founding fathers’ dream come true, just like mine (our society is very secular, I think it would please the like Benjamin Franklin, but it’s an utter failure as for universalism, revolutionary republicanism, or enlightenment... Point is : let us try to make our countries finally great for once ^^)
@@emeraldkat2167 Perhaps we imagine it worse than it is; current progressives have successfully introduced Socialist policies where before it was considered political suicide. Sometimes our fears are worse than their bite.
@@BigHeretic We have neither pure socialism nor pure capitalism in America. We have socialist entities like the National Weather Service, the military, food stamps, Medicare and Medicaid--the list of "socialist" entities in the United States is quite extensive. But we also have a market that is somewhat free and somewhat regulated. Anyone who labels America as "free market capitalism" is either stupid or dishonest. Then there's the U.S. military, possibly the most communistic institution in America, IF you THINK about it. Gotta wear the same clothes, eat what you're given, work in thejob you're assigned, like it or not; live in designated housing, accept designated status (private, captain, etc.--YOU don't get to choose, do you?), do and even THINK the same way as the rest of your comrades.
@@ketchup143 You see, there's Churches Chicken on one side of town and then there's KFC on the other. We both know that KFC is the false chicken while Churches is the REAL ONE... because it has the word "CHURCH" in it...... Hahahaha hahaha hahahaha hahahaha Oh I kill myself........ hahahahahahaha
Fun fact: the full phrase of "blood is thicker than water" is "the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb" which basically means the exact opposite of what is usually infered, that the family you choose is stronger than the one you were born into
This one really touched me, fellas. Absolutely brilliant. I want to thank QualiaSoup for taking the time to join TheraminTrees on these videos. His contributions do not go unnoticed.
Hey Tim The fable of the Job story alone is enough for my unbelief, I am thrilled its hypocrisy was hit on in this awesome display of rationale. Hoping you and yours are well of course.
belaireguy411 likewise. Job is an amazingly telling story in that it explicitly states Yahweh’s intentions. There’s no room for “greater good” apologetics. I wish you well also.
Hey Tim and Belaireguy. Yep, depressing to see folks defend the story of Job - only just this week I saw an apologetic video, emphasising the part of the story where Yahweh talks about how deep his own knowledge is, and that Job couldn't hope to understand his 'ways'. That was their line of defence: we just can't understand Yahweh's 'ways' so everything he does is fine. Sad to see all the fawning comments from people who just accepted that line - when his 'ways' are made perfectly clear in the story.
TheraminTrees The fawning comments are cringeworthy but those of religiosity would much attack me rather than my arguments. Even as an atheist, I tried to find maybe a cross reference in the Bible where the Satan character was the instigator. That of course was a futile task, you can't really take away God mentioning Job's name first. I lately have been sparring with one of the best apologists named IP (Inspiring Philosophy), primarily on that incoherent and contradictory Trinity doctrine. Of course we went around and around in the comment section on his extremely biased Job video. IP is brilliant as they get. Know you're a busy guy, will post a link to it if you are interested and if you want to laugh until your stomach hurts, the Darkmatter2525 video will do it. ruclips.net/user/results?search_query=IP+and+the+Job+story These days or really since becoming an atheist, I make a sincere effort in keeping any personal attacks in check. Surprisingly, this is what IP replied with recently. "No, you are changing the subject and being very rude. We can do without the arrogant condescending remarks. You’re not fooling anyone with your patronizing comments." I was actually surprised he would even say that. I certainly hope you and yours are well. Oh and fyi, I am one of your patreons, you being the only one supported to date, the name is Russell. Have a great weekend!
belaireguy411 IP has a habit of distorting scientific papers to say things they don’t say and distorting soundly justified frustration as “patronizing” and “rude”. Any distortion his brain can make that protects his illusion that he’s the one with a rational position.
"Maniacal child" is a perfect descriptor of the god of the bible, as well as those malignant narcissists I've encountered throughout my life. I understood this when taught "religion" as a child and rejected much of it at the time, but importantly, the bad behavior helped me recognize it in humans, even as I have had to endure the abuse. Narcissism is insidious and destructive. I've fully rejected it all now, but "grey rock" approach is not always an available tactic when dealing with malignant narc humans.
Oh, so, that's what it was, that stopped me from going no contact with my narcissistic mother- naive compassion. I am very naive anyways, due to my Asperger's. I genuinely loved and believed her. What a stupid waste of 30 years.
"Do not bow to me." "You do not wish it?" "I do not deserve it." -Jean-Luc Picard, a better being by far than Abraham's god, straightens out a primitive alien
Maladjester, love your name, however you have not ( from your comment) met the God of Abraham. I used to hate and distrust him due to childhood abuse and mormon upbringing. He revealed Himself , lve been peaceful, joyful and free of narcissistic, legalistic religious creeps ever since. Peace.
I cannot say enough how greatfull I am for your channel. I am a victim of narcisstic abuse for 57 years now. I know it since 3 years. So traumatised and brainwashed and the feeling of helplessness and complete isolation ,I searched for help in "speciallised" therapists. 2 of them were narcissists too. The toxic shame made me so sick. I then asked God for help and read in the bible and I felt even more ashamed. I work on my healing every day since 3 years and slowly I became better. It is not easy and it takes time but I will continue. Your Videos are so eyeopening and helpful to make aware of the internalised traits from the narcissists in my life, like echo as an enabler and flying monkey with naive compassion. Thank you so much. I realise that I am still in the traumabond or" betrayalbond". I work also with this book " betrayal bond ".very good book. Thank you so much.(Sorry for my bad English;))
@@ketz_165 hi, it is really much better but I am not completely out of the Traumabond. I am working on this every day. It is really a lot of inner work but without doing this it is impossible to heal. Richard Grannon 's courses and his coaches helped me a lot and also Ellie Frost and her course. Good luck
@@UnlimitlesslyFunnyDude Usually when people leave a religion, it sets a large strain on them emotionally, wether from attachment to the people they knew or things they did. This is usually the case since religion indoctrinates from birth, forming an individuals entire social life and structure around the religion. Leaving this system and seeing the truth can, understandably, upset some people. All we have to do is offer them our utmost support, in whichever decision they make; to return to religion or open their eyes.
26:15 Your tale of your narcissistic parent reminds me so much of my own narcissistic parent. I recognized that she was never going to change, so it was up to me to make the needed changes. Like you, I also employed the "grey rock" strategy of shutting down all non-essential communications, limiting contact, no sharing of confidences. In time, I built a hard wall of determination around myself. My efforts paid off. One day she came to me to create a drama out of nothing, I decisively shut her down. I established boundaries, and I enforced them. But perhaps like you, I succumbed to a bit of hubris. I thought perhaps she had changed, that I could have a healthy relationship with her. I was dead wrong. She didn't change, she just changed tactics, found more subtle ways to fuck with me. Eventually all the narcissistic controlling drama-seeking bullshit came back in full force. While I haven't completely cut off contact, I'd like to think I've limited her destructive influence on my life as much as possible.
DrownedInExile. I cut contact with my mother at 21, my telephone - requiring employer understood that my phone went off the hook from Nov 1 to Jan 1 for 30 years, severed contact with an aunt, much older sister, brother-in-law, and two beloved nieces at 25. And had most people hounding me to get back with her as if it was my fault, some actually blaming the children in such situations, many saying my love would "fix" her. Anyone who had to deal with her changed their tune. It's very good that people now better understand.
One Xmas, I visited a friend in another state but returned the on the 27th. I was greeted by my mother with, "I got you this (nice present) but you weren't here, so I took it back." If narcissists HAVE read from the same book, she hardly got as far as the table of contents.
its weird because i thought i was a very intelligent human being at least in school. but somehow narcissistic abuse seems hard to spot. i think at times... its actually right there in front of us, but i think the purest hearts may be the easiest to abuse as narcissists can prey on any vulnerability or naive compassion
Yellow rock is also a path to consider- going grey can sometimes incur retaliation. Yellow rock is effectively gray rock but with the caveat that you give the minimal response in order to guard your safety in the moment. Thank you for helping me in my deconstruction and understanding of narcissists (as amateur as i may be)- it’s helped me help others in small ways to get out from abusive relationships by sharing information and giving them support.
Say 10, In between filming in CASABLANCA, Bogart taught Bergman poker. . . the phrase "Here's looking at you kid" was improvised by Bogart when he beat her hand by laying face cards - a king, queen, and jack ...
It's like when people say "Well life's not fair..." Like that's an answer to anything... I like to quip back, "You're absolutely right about that... So What can we get started so we can work on fixing it or at least get it heading in a fairer direction?" And if they scoff at that... " Well then, what have you done to make it a bit more fair in the long run then?"
I can’t tell the difference between QualiSoup’s voice and TheremainTree’s voice. When I found this channel I actually thought they were the same person lol. Another excellent video
thank you. I've been thinkin a lot lately about how narcissists were drawn to religions like that. That's been a thing for me lately. It's refreshing to hear someone else to say it.
On a whim, I came back to this video after reflecting on the two-parter about the imposter, and it's amazing how many details just slip into place after hearing the stories from those videos. Hearing "if their actions caused destruction, harm, even death, blame was deflected onto others" and knowing about Rags... it hits so much harder.
I openly admitted to worshipping my narcissistic exwife, but it's only in the last few months that I realized I was fawning, and only upon watching this video that I realized the worship and the fawning are one-and-the-same. Really good stuff here, much appreciated
amazing analysis. Love how you dismantled the need to be worshipped of deity, and religion based on such deities. This is really impactful, because so much has been based on such values in humanity, and these values sometimes transferred even in domains unrelated to religion.
When I heard them talk about "behaving for a time" and not expecting narcissists to change, it made me think about another video where they mentioned that their parents said that they were "ashamed of how they acted" and "were proud of the people you'd become." Made me sad to think that their reconciliation with their parents might have been an act. : /
Sadly, yes - as I noted to someone else, those statements turned out to be worthless. The narcissist later rewrote history, 'forgetting' every instance of mistreatment - which is straight out of the 'narcissist handbook'. It really was 'behaving for a time'.
Thank you thank you thank you for these videos. Seriously. I'm binge watching them today. And as a consequence feeling like I can do "this". "This" being continuing to improve myself as a person, instead of blaming, excusing, deceiving, faking. These videos help expose parts of my shadow that have been there forever and need attention. Especially my ego.
Thank you so much, i am finally understanding narcissism and understanding how my childhood family was interwoven with it. If i could vote thumbs up more than once, i would. I will share it with a couple of friends. A wonderfully done video, by the way!
Dear TheraminTrees, some of my early memories about learning to pray was, to overcome the feeling of submission. It felt like a combination of feeling silly, and not wanting to do it, to lower myself to this entity, to grovel. With time and family pressure however, I pushed to the back of my mind all those confusing feelings. Later as I started evaluating my belief, those feelings that I got when I first started worshipping, bubbled up to the surface. Worship is a learned behavior. It forces the followers of a religion to ignore their individuality, Their pride, Their self worth, their freedom, and their dignity. These are the same characteristics absent from a Slave beholden to his master. Which is what Islam Prides itself about. Muslims say, as a point of pride, that they are slaves of Allah. I wonder, Is it too, why most evangelicals supported Trump. They supported him despite his womanizing, narcissistic and authoritarian tendencies.
Or why so many people support capitalism despite being made slaves to their bosses or corporations, those corporations exerting control over the government to sustain themselves, and push us down such that we don't see the problems for what they truly are, or don't see any solution, and don't fight back.
Sure but even with that it's far from ideal, no point in keeping it around just for the sake of keeping it even if it could work okayish with some supplementary stuff.
"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function." - The Essay "The Crack-Up" by F. Scott Fitzgerald 🌀
Yes! This is exactly why I was so uneasy about Christianity. I remember being a 10-year old kid and reading a cheery little comic about Job. God said to Job in the comic that he punished Job because Job made a mistake, but it confused me so much because I remembered that God was only torturing Job because Satan made a bet with him.
when i was a kid i asked an evanglist's wife why God allowed Job to be tortured when he was probably his most loyal follower. She said that he stopped praying regularly. I disagreed, but before I could say "no he didnt" she left.
Now I ponder polytheism... Certainly much less cognitive dissonance with some gods doing good and others doing evil... (Not that I believe it, but it is certainly easier than a monotheistic outlook.)
I mean yeah. It's much easier to believe something like. Their is a god of kindness, love and justice. Fighting a god of evil, corruption and hatred. Who together perhaps originally created the world. When bad things happen, natural disasters and plagues, evil god won a battle. When miracles and great weather events that helped people happen, good god won. Instead of trying to justify a singular god doing both good and evil all the time.
Depends on the polytheism and how evil is defined. In ancient Egypt, evil is a natural byproduct of everything having free will. It builds up and needs regular draining and care-- like a wound in reality. The gods are actively trying to erase it (evil), refining creation as they go because creation itself was unintentional and thus contained errors.
@@Xebelan that sounds like it makes a lot of sense, actually, much more than monotheism. But I just don't see how any being requires to be worshipped. Respect may be deserved, at most, but certainly not worship.
@@larsswig912 The Egyptian Gods excuse mankind from having to worship them. It was a by-choice thing. Atheists had a special place in the afterlife as the Netjeru certainly believe in them if they are moral people, and do not mind if the atheists did not return the favor. It's part of the tale of the Destruction of Mankind (the one where Sekhmet has to be lured to sleep with an ocean of pomegranate sweetened beer to stop her rampage when mankind made her father Ra cry by telling him to "fuck off" more or less) where Ra sets out the laws for the conduct of the Netjeru so that they will not abuse mankind or force them to obey. He was horrified that his despair had prompted such insanity. Ra is not king because he's the most powerful-- he's king because he's the most moral.
From QualiaSoup and TheraminTrees I can brew my own golden tea. Sincere thanks to the both of you, even so many years later, for making the world a little bit easier to understand. These videos are an absolute treasure trove. Now I'm off to try and distinguish whose voice is whose, lol! :D
Thank you! This is extremely accurate and I will use it to educate my friends on narcissistic people and 'gods'. I wish I had seen and understood this 15 years ago, then so much suffering would have been avoided.. keep up the good work!
It is absolutely astounding, even unsettling at times, just how accurate you are in these videos. You are doing an amazing job and I am sure many can open their eyes to the real world thanks to you.
I don't get why we're all punished because some Adam and Eve who I've never even met no one else has ever met managed to screw up a perfect garden why does that affect the rest of the human race
This is so awesome I don't have words. Your explanation of narcissists with both Yahweh and examples of real-life narcissistic personalities and relationships that ensues is a perfect description of the abusive relationship that I have just woken up to. Listening to atheists videos including yours woke me up to the abuse I was suffering by demonstrating religion and gods as abusive. This video was horribly painful (because of how accurate it is) but so enlightening. Thank you.
Yes religion is questionable, I'm also reminded of the film of the God's of Ancient Greece "Jason and the Argonauts" when Jason says " One day man will learn to do without the Gods " due to his misfortune. Also Jason overcomes trials with his own rationality. Who can forget those flying tormentors stealing the food of the blind man as a punishment from the God's ? A great euphemism - like the wizard of oz - for flying monkeys!
@@turtlememes2334 hi if you can get a copy of the DVD ... Jason and the argonauts... it explains everything about trials in life. A great film, hope this helps.
Your videos almost always describe my religious dad and stepmom to a T. You've helped me immeasurably to overcome the psychological fleas I got from layong with religious dogs. Thank you.
This hits all the nails on the head. My JW mother is unhappily married to my narcissistic JW father, and I wish there was some way to get her to absorb this without her mental shields going up.
It seemed as if your initial comment was somehow painting your mother as a victim in all of this with no culpability for her current state of affairs and her decisions leading up to them. Your mother is 'unhappy', but you mentioned nothing of your father's side of the equation. Merely labeling him as narcissistic as if that somehow makes him the only one with responsibility in all of this. If I assumed wrong, I apologize.
No, no she's totally responsible for whatever she does, but sadly she's in a high-control manipulative group (the JWs) that dampens the critical thinking of its members. Were she to view this video, her JW 'training' would kick in because she would see it as an 'attack' from Satan to try and weaken her faith. I was lamenting the fact that this video provides so much insight into the dysfunction of her religious/marital situation, but that very situation makes her unlikely to be receptive to those insights. I hope that she finds her way out of her mental prison and I recognize that she's the one who has to take that first step, but it's still frustrating to see her living unhappily.
As I'm listening to your description of narcissistic gods, I think I finally understand why American christians support trump. He's the embodiment of their god.
Christians have elevated America to the land and people God chose. “We are a Christian nation.” Narcissistic Fundamentalist Christians - almost necessarily Republican - believe that he who represents these values and beliefs is the domestic version of the Pope.
Man that hit hard good job Theramin & Qualia Soup. It got me thinking. What kind of parent would purposely hide all traces of it's existence from it's children & then try to communicate it's wishes through means, that are indistinguishable from coincidence, in an attempt to get to know them & warn them about the impending Hell fire.?
Incredibly well made video again. Your reasoning is superb and so accessible. Love the graphics, thanks for all the effort you put into this. Just want to share, share, share.
I was watching this video while one of my daughters was helping me put things into my calendar on my smartphone. Eventually, I realized this video was about the other daughter that the two of us were talking about. Thank you for helping me see the extent to which the manipulation and exploitation will continue, if allowed. I had already recommended that my one daughter cut her sister out of her life. Now I know it is the only stable option.
Must be VERY painful to have to do this to one of your own child to protect the other one from harm. I admire your strength to be able to make the decision and trying to help your child who has been manipulated and receiving undeserved suffering. It is probably hard for her too!
In the opening comic when the man admitted he was the one who had cancer i honestly choked on my cheerios and had to pause the video and laugh for five minutes straight while writing this comment ... So beautiful a description of every person i know ...
I'm an undergrad getting my BA in Psychology(transferring to a Grad School to get my Masters in Counseling), and I find your videos fascinating! I live in the South in the US, and it is extremly hard to find psych/secular books here(they put The God Delusion behind the counter at the library) Thank you so very much!
Reading your comment, I'm just thinking about all the unnecessary 'shaming' incurred in putting a book like The God Delusion behind the counter. By doing this, the book becomes a forbidden object - and the act of borrowing a book becomes a radical one, when it should be a mundane one. I'm sure for some folks, sadly, that simple barrier is enough to discourage them from taking it out. It's a great example of the subtle social dissuasions that try to put ideas out of reach. I majored in psychology too - so best of luck with your degree!
Great, well thought out video as always! And for me, it’s very timely too. My sister-in-law is dealing with a narcissist right now, her boyfriend. He’s probably going to lose his job because he’s skipped it so much, and he’s blaming her for making him feel “depressed” because he can “only think about what she did in the past” when he sees her. Yet while he has cheated on her several times, she has been loyal. He’s abusive and neglectful to their children, and presents a double standard for them, ignoring his daughter’s bad behavior while punishing the son for the same behavior. I’m glad to see this video, and I hope my sister-in-law can find her way out of this hell.
I just realised i never get any ad on this channel. I really wish there would be so you could make money out of these videos. Mind opening channels are probably one of the greatest things of internet. One person’s teaching can greatly improve the world
I'm going to spin out a hypothesis, somewhat based on your video, about William Lane Craig. He justifies (in his mind) the worst acts of the bible, the worst acts in human history unconnected with JHVH, and the worst natural disasters as *good* things. When it comes to religious apologists as enablers it's sometimes hard to tell if they really believe what they're saying or it's just a way of making money. I suspect WLC actually believes this stuff. Now to drag some strands together out of which to weave my hypothesis. There are many similarities between victims of family abuse and kidnap victims or hostages. The kidnapper or hostage taker may not be particularly narcissistic, the intent is not to get praise or cause drama, but the results are the same. The victim/hostage starts to identify with the abuser and to justify the abuser's actions. "John is hitting me _because I did something wrong." and "The thieves were right to rob the bank because the system is against them and so of course they needed hostages." The victims deflect some of the pain by assuming the abuser has greater wisdom. In essence, victims of family abuse develop Stockholm Syndrome. It used to be common for devout people to describe themselves as "god-fearing." A few years ago I talked with a Jehovah's Witness who described himself as "god-fearing" and he meant it literally. I believe that many people who used that term also meant it literally. They are in perpetual fear of what god may do to them if they make a mistake. They describe their god as just and loving and wise and yet also fear him. Which seems to me to be very much how those with Stockholm Syndrome and victims of family abuse behave. My hypothesis is that William Lane Craig spouts his repulsive, vile crap because he is suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.
I doubt he suffers much, considering what he gets for making an appearance at a lecture or debate. The ones who are stuck in this game and haven't figured out how to make this scam work for them ... THERE's where the real suffering is.
I know this is old, perhaps no one will ever see it, but... I think the whole TAG and presup performance is a clever maneuver for mean- spirited theists to: - beat up on unsuspecting atheist folks with sealioning techniques, as revenge for their hurt over the lack of success with evidentiary logic in regards to creationism. - trick unsuspectingy vulnerable other folks looking on into repenting or converting out of subliminal and vicarious emotional manipulation of religious and other abuse triggers by acting out abusive scenarios in the main conversation or a special sidekick conversant and using loaded "dog whistle" phrases, instead of good reason or logic. -but mostly its a rich psychodrama with the presuppers/Kellyanne Conway/her BOSS, assuming authoritarian roles versus the opponent's submissive victim role. The low logic, highly emotive type individual is indoctrinated and suitably numb, as well as conditioned to put thinking into hibernation and focus on emotional tone and drama every first day of the week! They eat this stuff up! Add Jorden Petersen's recent thoughts that a true atheist would be an immoral supervillain, along with a detailed, top lofty literary critique supporting his description, but don't worry there's no such thing as a true atheist, wink, wink! to the presuppers harsh disdain and psychodramatic emotional entrainment (mob rule!) of the base of the supporters (presupporters!?!) Try watching a performance by our president with the sound turned off, preferably a campaign rally where he's talking to his base supporters.
I knew what the words mean, and I know of the city in Texas, but I had never heard of the feast. I am reading about it now. Where do you live, and how is it observed there?
Allthough I got the idea from a story, I've long wondered what a catholic would do if the "transsubstansiated" bread actually turned into a bit of human flesh(in every sense of the word, visually, in shape, aroma, taste, etc), preferably something recognizable, like a foot or hand. It seems as if there is no getting around the idea that they'd be utterly religiously obligated to eat the part, with even more enthusiasm than ever before.
I don't really know, like many christians here, I just enjoy the day off. I live in Brazil and the major religion is christianity, major branch is catholic, about 85% catholic or something like that. But yes, it is observed just like the man above just said. You eat a snack(?) representing(?) the body of christ. You go to the mass, you don't eat meat, the bishop must be there, you praise the holy trinity and so on. Oh, some cities have people lay carpets with religious drawings around the streets so people walk on them, it's quite beautiful, those huge colored carpets and people drop flowers, cereals and everything.
This is an absolute masterpiece. Thanks so much for putting quality content out there for free. I don't fully know how and why this gets to me the way it does, but I feel like I can learn so much from your reasoning and dissection of bad ideas and concepts.
Your descriptions of narcissistic abuse in partners and family settings is (unfortunately) extremely accurate. My father was narcissistic and emotionally very abusive towards myself, my sister and especially my mother. My father used guilt and gas-lighting to maintain his control over us. He was certain my mother was cheating on him, despite her having a full time job and two kids to look after. But he needed to be a victim in every sense, it was his only way of receiving gratification. We had to wait until my sister and I were of legal adult age to leave him, in case he took his rejected outrage on us (his own children). I went to therapy a year ago, to vent about this abuse in great detail to a lovely woman in her late 30's, a mother of three young kids. She would get very invested in the abuse I went through as a child, and what my home-life was like. She even teared up during on of my ramblings about it all. I thought it was sympathy at the time, but it wasn't - it was empathy. I just wish she told me. On July 23rd, 2018 - she was murdered by her ex husband in her own home. An execution he felt she deserved because she rejected him and his narcissistic abuse by leaving, he was also obsessed with the unsubstantiated claim that she was cheating on him...despite her having a full time job and three kids to look after. Suddenly it became quite clear that indeed narcissists follow the same script, the more I learned about her killer, the more familiar he became - much to my heartache and horror. R.I.P. Samantha. You deserved much better than this.
Beautiful font. (The clip was excellent in other respects, but I'm listening to this while trying to design some letters of my own. If that alphabet is your creation, color me jealous of your hard work and skill. Many thanks.)
Qualia designed this font one afternoon especially for our joint videos. Nice to give them a typographical identity. Type work's great fun - good luck with yours.
For both of you, from the bottom of my heart: Theramintrees and Qualiasoup, your videos have impacted my life, beliefs, and relationships in a big way; for the better. I remember both of you fondly from the atheistic YT days. Content - thoughtful; editing - way above what was expected then, and now; arguments - sometimes better explained than by my philosophy teachers. Whatever your private lives look like now, I wish and hope you both the very best. Your work has impacted lives of many people in profound ways. Your lives have not been in vain. I hope to someday positively impact lives of others in my own way. When I do that: you will be part of what brought me there. I shall now commence watching the video 😌
Oh my. This one was pretty related, talking about your relationships with your parents and such. I imagine that this topic was largely inspired by a reengagement with your mother, prompted by her current (former?) condition, which went more poorly than you guys had hoped. I suppose the details of the matter aren't my business, but I wish you two the best.
Never reconnect. Though you may need to prove to yourself that you were right and your perceptions/memories correct, don't expect improvement. If the monster seems to have improved over time, is so much better, wants to make amends, etc, there will be an instant relapse with you back in the picture. If you are their only or favored target you may improve their life as well as your own by staying away.
We're in different countries and yet our childhoods seem so familiar. It's just human nature, is it? These videos have been so healing and enlightening as I've extricate myself from the gnarled cloying grip of my upbringing with two narcissistic parents. Thank you!!! I'm sure you know this but you're not ever alone.
This is important to me on so many levels and I love the positive sentiment that observing these behaviors can help inform us to grow wiser (if we choose to find the lesson).
Thank you both for your amazing videos that somehow just keep getting better and better. I'm an ex JW and finding your channels along with a couple of others more dedicated to JW's have helped me be free for the past 12 months. It's been a scary but liberating time and I thank you for the role you've played. Please don't stop making these life-changing videos.
And this is why I am polythiestic pagan. From my beliefs, the gods do not need to be worshipped, but appreciate it when you do. They will gove uou signs they are there, speak to you, even be your friend. Another ver important part is to not force your own beliefs on others and to be open to any knowledge you come across. If you want religious faith without a monotheistic god, I would recommend paganism, but of course, it is entirely up to you.
Tis is one of the best and most helpful videos I have ever seen. I escaped the narcissist I married and shortly after walked away from the narcissist I worshipped. Great information here that will benefit many.
My father is a narcissist and my mother is an enabler. We were in a church that ostracizes anyone who leaves. I got out of my parents home by getting married and my spouse was a narcissist. This video gives me chills.
The content of your material is truly healing. But it’s your music that brings the heavens down to earth. Amazing acoustics! If I addressed the clarity of your visuals, this comment would become a commentary of many paragraphs. Your voice renders me silent, for I hear the clarity of Gods truth through it. The internet is fearfully and wonderfully made, And your work is a reminder that clarity and constructive criticism can still be gleaned from the World Wide Web. You put the health of human relationships above all else, a true voice in the wilderness calling men to realign with reality. The mirror you provide me and my faith, is priceless. Less like a mirror and more like still waters, allowing me to clean the dirt of my poorly perceived divinity. Thank you. I will continue to eat and share the fruits of your labour. I believe in God and I believe in you.
One of the best videos ever. !!!! Had worked how religion operates myself long ago. But its great how well you point it out. They prey on people in the most sly ways ever. Bloody Romans. Truely fantastic.
I often tend to watch your videos when I'm feeling like I'm relapsing and these help me immensely to see worth in myself once again, without obsessing over opinion of others
I wanna say my point of view on narcissism here (anyone, feel free to respond). Narcissism is a based-formed defense mechanism. It's the shame of being "ordinary" or "not good enough". It's full of magical thinking and rooted deep-heartbreaking trauma. Narcissists shame others the same way the have been shamed and the same way they shame themselves. Shame is a trauma-response-emotion. Think about it this way: if something about me makes me ashamed, I won't try to show it to people. Maybe I live in a culture in which that trait is received with violence. Maybe the shame is keeping me safe. Think about gays who live in homophobic cultures, don't go out of the closet and shame other gay people. "I'm not like them. I'm one of the good guys. Please, love me". Of course, when you don't show that unconditional love and adoration, the narcissist reacts the same way a 3 year old would. Fear. Anger. Hatred. Lashing, quick emotions. It's like the cry for help of a child that feels like they are about to lose their mom. They form this grandiouse image of themselves to make up for all the abuse they got. Their ego holds on all the triggers. They get triggered all the time cause they are full of trauma. It's not born out of love, but rather out of fear, shame, hidden pain that they bury deep down cause it's so much that feeling it feels like the end of the world. They are always running away from their past, running away from the trauma, trying to not live that again in the future. They blame themselves for the abuse (unconsciously. They don't neccessarily have to agree that the abuse was right, but at least find ways to justify it when it comes to them) because that gives them a false sense of control that gives them hope. "If it's my fault, I can change it". They hold on to that hope. They are depressed. They are the kinds of people that think "All I want is to have my own family/to have X job/to have X, and once I have it, I'll be happy". It's a defense mechanism that is constantly encouraged by some cultures (cultures can be "toxic") and social structures. It reminds me of the alpha wolf theory and how the guy that wrote the book that popularized the term spent decades begging the editorial to drop it down cause it was factually wrong. Wolves in captivity don't behave the same way that wolves who are free and the theory was based on the behavior of wolves who were forcefully captured and imprisoned for the study. I observe the same kind of social dynamics in the captured wolves, human prisons, schools, abusive/"narcissistic" families, social roles... I also know about human societies/cultures that act more like the wolves in their natural habitats. I wanna end this comment saying: no, it's not you, it's your environment. And if you are struggling, I'm sorry the people around you suck.
One "tell" in religious narcissists like Ravi Zacharias is that they assume the person of God, as if they are God, and make statements like this: "I am the one who can heal you. Come to ME and I will save your soul. Come to ME for salvation." They pretend to speak in the voice of God in the first person, but really they're just advertising themselves.
I've recently spent a bit of time playing The Sims 2 for some nostalgia, and learning about narcissistic behaviors from this video made me think differently about one of the premade families in the game. The household consists of middle-aged couple Daniel and Mary-Sue Pleasant and their teenage identical twin daughters Angela and Lilith. You can probably see from the names which narcissism-indicating family dynamic is being played out. Looking at the twins' memories shows that Angela has always been cared for and encouraged, while Lilith was neglected and basically left to raise herself; I always found this disturbing, but now I have the vocabulary to describe it as a very clear Golden Child/Scapegoat dynamic. Of course, this being a Sims game, characters' personalities are up to interpretation, but now that I've seen this in the fictional family, I really can't unsee it. I'm not sure whether the narcissistic parent is Daniel or Mary-Sue or both, though I suspect it's Daniel because of some other indicators (deep need for attention, causing drama, infidelity). Perhaps the most disturbing thing about this dynamic I've noticed, however, is the fact that the current devs of The Sims 4 seem willing to play up the Golden Child/Scapegoat dynamic, as versions of Angela and Lilith in the Sims 4 library assign them traits that support the good-twin-evil-twin setup. It's as if the developers are also trying to slot the characters into these roles. Considering how the marketing for the Sims series has gotten more into celebrities creating their "SimSelves" since the series left Will Wright and Maxis's hands, it seems like there's a bit more of an emphasis on the narcissistic aspects of playing SimGod (down to potentially putting an idealized avatar of oneself into the game) over the storytelling aspects that make Sims 2 such a nostalgic game for me.
![double binds | narcissistic ‘no-win’ mind games [cc]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/vnSiJOOdo30/mqdefault.jpg)
![double binds | narcissistic ‘no-win’ mind games [cc]](/img/tr.png)
![commanded to love | performing false emotions for tyrants [cc]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/u91ctugBCsg/mqdefault.jpg)
![losing faith | my departure from theism [cc]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/6xqCkx6WQBE/mqdefault.jpg)
![infantilisation | a regressive abuse [cc]](/img/1.gif)
Why would God even want to be worshipped by finite, flawed individuals anyway? A perfect being requires no worship, since it is complete and has neither want, nor need.
The Apistevist I'm inclined to go even farther, along with DM2525. A morally upstanding being would find the notion that it hurts those who do not worship it a grave insult.
You saw the recent video, huh? It was pretty nice.
The Apistevist (edit)
I did, it was really way out there. I think the ending was a tad optimistic...even when clearly face to face with a god, Theist may still be unable to react out of character.
The Apistevist - what's the title?
Evol Bob - what's the title?
I was a narcissist, even my reason to stop being a narcissist was narcissistic. Glad I was able to be aware of it before I get old and stubborn
How did you realize you were wrong and how did you learn to inprove?
Do tell us more
Hi Happy
Destroying narcissism with narcissism has to be the most 6D chess thing I have ever heard.
Yeah right.....
_Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child._
-- Robert A. Heinlein
As always, most excellent! Thanks to you both, TheraminTrees and QualiaSoup!
Yep - it's not so much worship that they need as a nappy and bib.
Troubleshooter125;
I've seen you around in other places like Steve Shives' channel. Good to see you here too! You make really smart and thoughtful comments, and I enjoy reading them.
_Molte grazie,_ Janet; that's very kind of you to say so.
Men did not create YHVH, YHVH created men.
@@juliemckenzie5960
Crom laughs at your puny god without vowels.
Broke: "Blood is thicker than water"
Woke: "The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb" (the bonds you form of your own volition are more valuable than your blood ties)
Yep. Love by choice is stronger than love by chance.
That's been something I've been gnawing on since I took a high school psychology class where unconditional love was presented as morally superior in an academic setting. At the time I was just starting to get used to the idea that things that you struggle for inherently have more personal value.
Of course there's another side to that. Not one person ever asked to be born. They were thrust into the world with an inborn terror and anguish surrounding the idea of leaving it, instead destined to struggle constantly, ultimately to avoid that exit, against their will, roped into the game of existence. As the ones who forced that burden upon them, it is a parent's duty to repay that debt in love and kindness ("unconditional love"). And of course, like anything else conditional, antisocial people can exploit conditional "love" for personal gain or the harm of others. Of course, that implies the feeling of love is not merely conditional but counterfeit, so it isn't an attack on conditional love- instead it is consistent with the well-deserved attack on counterfeit emotion.
@@vitriolicAmaranth I've found most parents fall into two categories.
The parent(s) is either naive, their intentions good, but their skills in raising & protecting a little human is realistically minimal.
Or that parent(s) is selfish.
They either want a kid to fix a relationship, for some pointless purpose (aka religious/cult/last name expectations), to get love/attention that they never had from others, or to save them by making them "more responsible".
This who are naive parents, question those who don't want to be parents.
And those who are actually selfish parents, tend to call those who don't want to bring kids into this world selfish.
Point is, I don't believe I would have given my consent to be born. Why would I do that to another person?
Especially when you're supposed to love them more than the air you breathe.
@@cya.6616 Original QUOTE; "the blood of the covenant is thicker than water of the womb".He is, (everythinglikerules), saying that your choice to love God is stronger than "family blood". The vast majority of people follow the religion of their parents/community/state. Children do not chose to be indoctrinated.
@@hazelsunderstood6784 I would argue there's a third kind: blissful unaware or uncomprehending of the weight of the decision to create another life.
My parents had 1 kid, then after 4 yrs went "it needs a friend" so made my sister, and then 3 yrs later accidentally got pregnant with me and went "no harm in keeping it, right? We can afford it" (this was in a pro choice household w/no abuse or neglect btw). My entire existence is based around a shrug. It's hysterical to think about.
There is a subconcept called "Fleas", which refers to when those who are under a narcissist's power for a while, will start to take on some of those unhealthy narcissistic traits themselves (often as a defensive strategy).
Once you've escaped, & come to recognize some of these traits in yourself, it can be difficult to rid yourself of these "fleas". But what separates you from a narcissist, is that you actually want to.
Yes, 'fleas' are insidious. They're the language of the narcissist. I think a significant part of recovery is identifying and combatting fleas.
I picked up loads of fleas from my narcissistic step-father and my enabling mother and I'm trying to squish them one by one. I basically thought I was a monster too when I realized just how much they'd rubbed off on me.
roidroid ... Excellent point. I cringe when I remember how I snapped and became even more evangelistic than I was required to be! I've apologized to a couple school friends, but the damage done to my kids and grandkids is not fixable.
That’s what brought me here. I don’t think I was born a narcissist but I definitely have acted as one for a lot of my life and I’m hoping it’s because I was raised Mormon and it’s a bunch of fleas
Michael Call I know your comment is five months old, and by now you may have been able to move beyond this point, or even been told the same thing I’m about to say. But just in case: the fact that you are looking for ways to change means you’re way ahead of any narcissist. You may have exhibited narcissistic traits, but, if what I’ve learned is true, actual narcissists would never deign to believe they should change.
I just realized I've been employing the "grey rock" method since childhood...
Rakib h. Unfortunately I became "grey rock" for decades, adept at fading away and feeling nothing. Eventually relearning myself and expression.
@@kathryngeeslin9509 same here but only for decade with out "s"
@@someone-ql6pu Glad for you. Sometimes still an observant person will mention I seem to be "acting" my reactions; not spontaneous.
@@kathryngeeslin9509 I was a grey rock for alot of my life, and am still learning how to feel. Ive gotten that from people too, except most times they'll get angry because they think im being sarcastic.
I can totally relate
Funny, I was sitting in a serious social science/ anthropology course on the development of religion many years ago and the professor related a story how he skipped church on a Sunday to fish with his father. Being a young boy he asked his mother why would it be a sin to do such a thing and she asked him to ponder what kind of god would take offense at such a thing. The question led him quickly down the road to what most atheists would call the rational conclusion. Isn't it strange that just a bit of pondering and reflection can drive away the darkness but so few people are willing to do so?
Harry Woodman As far as I can tell, the rituals & traditions of successful religions are meant to replace unconstrained reflection. By conditioning a person to believe that following rules & constraining thought to only examine a limited scope of religious-friendly subjects, that person rarely considers critical examination of what they’ve been doing or why.
When all you have to do is follow rules to achieve acceptance, why reconsider the purpose behind the game you’re playing.
I think the thing that struck me most as a child faced with being forced to go to church was the idea that any god would allow billions of people to be sentenced to an eternity of hell when they were simply born in the wrong place. The audacity of such a god (not to mention how racist it is), gave me the revelation that even if such a god exists, I wouldn't want anything to do with it. And the same thing basically can be said for any theist religion.
MechaGrexZillas they may reach that conclusion but I doubt they'd be justified in doing so. The only time to reach a gnostic conclusion on a proposition is when there is ample evidence for that proposition. Doing otherwise just screams, "flawed epistemology."
On the plus side, believing in a deistic, passive God is less likely to make someone legislate their beliefs or promote many of the harmful practices that come from highly specified theistic traditions so if its a choice between two evils...
Some people have strong emotional ties to religion. Is it possible to upturn your whole life, your friends (so called), and family, on reasoning? Yes but it's hard.
Also, you essentially condemn your deceased ancestors to death once you drop religion... which unfortunately it is likely they are...
@@CombiHarvester-mo4jh okay, that's a new one for me. How would what I do today affect my previously dead ancestors?
If you are specifically referring to what I wrote about billions in history being condemned to and eternity of torture, all for the crime of being born in the wrong place, that was referring to peoples around the world who never got to learn about (insert religious book). It has nothing to do with whatever I do.
Even when I was a churchgoing Catholic, I thought "original sin" was not only stupid, but toxic.
The bible gives zero incentive for why God placed the tree into the garden as if we are supposed to piece a plot hole free explanation together ourselves. All the serpent did was give Eve a small push. The rest is history.
@@Dinoslay the bible having plot holes? impossible
next you'll tell me it's also full of retcons
@@ConsarnitTokkori You better not see the fanon. It gets wild there.
@@BL-sd2qw i would know, there was this one guy who said there might have been 9 flavors of h*ck or something, where he personally met a lot of dead celebs (plus a half dead one :D)
heard he developed a god complex, retconning himself to be muhammad lite or something
God, Who is holy, gave everyone He created freewill and everything He created was made with beauty and has limits.
God knew man would sin as we all have. He wrote Himself in our story knowing man would choose to reject Him and He alone Chose to forgive those who put their faith in Him.
The world was created without the need of our opinion and therefore our opinion regarding the truth will not change the truth. Jesus came speaking the truth, living out that truth, dying so we could come into His eternal truth. It's all one's choice. There is life and death. Fire is beautiful with many benefits yet it also burns.
My motto: those who don't want you to think critically are always against you
Pretty similar to something TheraminTrees says: "Someone who doesn't want you to think is never your friend." Good words to live by.
@@Orangekid65 do you have that kind of good friend?
Well, they may not be actively against you, but they are always lying. Maybe they've also been lied to by a millennial chain of "don't worry about it" and they actually think what they're saying it's true.
Just because there's poison doesn't mean there's malice, but always avoid it because it's still bad for you.
@@UnlimitlesslyFunnyDude In your own words, how would you describe the true benefits that you received from having had the covid vaccines that those who had none missed out on/went without?
Only folks that struggle with delusions of infallibility (the whole "I can't be wrong! thing) and delusions of intellectual and/or moral superiority will have a "problem" w those that apply critical thought.
I cannot begin to describe the profound effect your words have had on my thinking. I was already an atheist by the time I found your channel, but you've helped me to further refine and define my positions on morality, reasoning, religion, thought, abuse, and so much more. Thank you for all you do to make a confusing world more clear and understandable.
Thank you - it is a confusing old world isn't it! ;8)
If you want clarification, study the Bible.
I couldn’t have said it better. I’m definitely in the same boat.
Tbh I'm mostly here for the stuff about the psychology of abuse, but it's similarly enlightening and reassuring for me. I used to be an atheist and could still be mistaken for one but I was a real firebrand too, so most of that aspect of these videos isn't new to me.
@@juliemckenzie5960 You exemplify the enabler
1:44 "We were repeatedly told they both knew our minds better than we did."
I'm reminded of a line from the film The Truman Show:
"You never had a camera in my head!"
Good point, but I'd like to also mention that a parent who tells us what we're thinking or feeling is in effect commanding us to think or feel that way. It is an astounding level of intrusion and attempted control over the infant/child, and one that makes it difficult for the developing child/teen/young adult to know who they really are. Which renders them unsure of themselves, and highly vulnerable not only to the destructive parent's continuing control, but also that of predatory personalities who find such docile, confused people useful.
WWZenaDo Voice of experience here. Not only are you correct, but it appears such monsters leave some kind of "mark" that their kind can sense. Even adults who break away and do not emulate such behavior or subject themselves to it are targeted by others who see them as well trained potential victims and are confused when they cannot take control. While it's easy to send them packing, there's always another one waiting, who is just as confused and surprised even if he observed the previous failure. Don't like to think I give off a victim vibe, and am told I don't, but have drawn these things for decades (thank you mother). Marked for life.
@Kathryn Geeslin wrote: "but it appears such monsters leave some kind of "mark" that their kind can sense."
Definitely! I've observed that in my own life, and it's been commented upon by the various RUclips channels that focus on narcissists, too (although not in those exact terms). I like your description - it fits so well.
I suspect that one trigger for these predators is a kind (or apologetic) approach to people in general. When I acquired a kind, loving surrogate mother, one of the first things she said to me (before we even became friends) was that I was always saying "I'm sorry" - and she said she was going to knock that phrase right out of my vocabulary. She was right, too - after I learned a lot more about the abuses directed towards me as an infant and child, I realized my mother hated my very existence (although she found me useful to force my father back into the marriage). So I learned to apologize for my very existence - a horrible form of abuse. I suspect most narcissists imprint that sort of damage upon their offspring, since narcissists can't be bothered with trying to care for anyone else.
WWZenaDo. I used to say "I'm sorry" a lot too, partly because I always felt guilty (mother and church), partly just habit; broke the habit mid 20's, rapidly reduced the guilt but with so much of it, well, still a work in progress. But I keep apologies to when they're due. Still, that could be it, thank you, I can come across apologetic without a word. I want to be kind, considerate, but never a doormat, and it grows tiresome being the one singled out by these so confidently.
Of course, advantage and disadvantage to everything. It helped as a job steward to identify which managers needed careful watching, and helped in dealing with them successfully. I loved surprising them. And they had to deal with my mother when she tried to enter a security building.
I'll look into some of those sites on narcissistic individuals.
Agreed - and there are some people who are just so abusive that they target anyone, for any small imagined slights. Or the parasitic ones try their sad story on everyone - and see who responds with the most sympathy. It's difficult at times to tell who really needs help, and who is sitting on their rear end waiting for a kind person to come along, so the parasite can take advantage of them.
Brilliant video, thanks!
A few years ago, I had dealings with a person who really messed up my mind. Learning about narcissism, manipulation and cognitive dissonance is what saved me. Then a few months later the penny dropped, and I realized the group to which I belonged was using the exact same manipulation techniques. Six months ago I left the Jehovah's witnesses.
Good for you. I've said before that the JWs have benefitted from a benign sheep-in-sheep's-clothing image - but I find the organisation one of the most extreme examples of destructively manipulative ideological groups. One of the greatest sadnesses about narcissism is that it seems most effective on the kindest, most empathic people. Some of the JWs I've encountered have come across as some of the most kind-hearted individuals - but horribly lost psychologically, within a poisonous organisation.
Capriciousness is a zombie noun; caprice is its proper form.
@@TheraminTrees I couldn't agree more
@@TheraminTrees i dont know how youd make sense of this. i find that im the type who wants to be "good". and being good for a narcissist is different then being good. its rather being good for the reward, the praise. anyways i had trouble leaving christianity because i was submitting to the abuse an being good. so after that when i spotted other religions with similar reward systems, where if you submit you get a reward it was like... i was attracted to them in the way that... i was taught how to get to heaven is to ignore abuse and to let it happen without calling it out. honestly sounds a bit like the methods the dominant uses in sexual abuse as well. so yeah it felt like a true religion, a "good" religion consists of a situation where theres abuse. where the followers are never really good enough but by some crazy means eventually maybe achieve the final prize. i felt as though the only way id get to heaven was through giving up myself. i was almost addicted to the cycle. so... its honestly hard to get out of the christianity cult thing because it just feels right. im used to that reward system
i see it in my dad too. hes addicted to christianity and the religion, because its like the whole abrahamic narrative can almost cause like a high. i guess it feels good to him, the story of like people being lost, god redeems them, an epic tale. and why does it catch our eye? its a familiar concept. that work for your salvation concept is familiar, it feels right, feels good. thats the only euohoria we ever knew. pleasing fathers. (my dad had a very very unpleasable and abusive father)
The analogy of a parent who "just wants a relationship" and is yet removed and uninvolved in your life is a really good point. Yet its not that different with a god who "just wants a relationship" but we don't see , hear, or perceive this god with our senses. Only the mind game of "is this god, the devil, or my own thoughts" is what we have to go on.
the way yall compare manipulative humans and manipulative deities is incredible. i guess its because manipulative humans created the deities but the parallels are so fascinating to me. yall help a lot of people with these vids :) thanks
I found the brief discussion of Worship (19:47) most percipient. When will we, both as individuals and societies, come to the realization that the attitude of worship is unhealthy? When will we refuse to bow our heads, and choose to stand erect? When will we rise, wipe the dust from our knees and resolve never to bend them again for man or god? Again I refer to the magnificent orator, Robert Green Ingersoll, who observed:
“The church demands worship-the very thing that man should give to no being, human or divine. To worship another is to degrade yourself. Worship is awe and dread and vague fear and blind hope. It is the spirit of worship that elevates the one and degrades the many; that builds palaces for robbers, erects monuments to crime, and forges manacles even for its own hands. The spirit of worship is the spirit of tyranny…Whoever worships, abdicates.”
Individuality, 1873
Great poetry in Ingersoll's words, isn't there? And all the more powerful for being real and illuminating - unlike religious scripture, which uses poetry to distort and conceal.
or the words of JIm Larkin - 'the great only appear great because we are on our knees - let us rise'
@@TheraminTrees sometimes, we need to lower ourselves for the good of yourself and others. Do not confuse that with worship
Ahah, my man !!
@@mozesmarcus6786 Clearly, this is not what was discussed in this video. What WAS discussed was worship...simple as that.
Do not inject a strawman argument by throwing in a distinction to something that isn't even the subject of the video...this adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.
"If you have no right to disapprove, then your approval means nothing." - Thomas Sowell
Job is an amazing book for revealing the Biblical God's true character. When he finally shows up to confront Job over his perplexity, after destroying his house and all his goods and killing all his children, he actually gets sarcastic! That's twisting the knife, particularly since Job was perfectly willing to be submissive as it was. Not to mention a lie. God's sarcasm was directed at convincing Job that as a puny, limited human he could never hope to understand the vast perspective and purposes God has for the world, but we know from the prologue that all Job's suffering was just to facilitate a lousy bet. It's like the plot of _Trading Places._
Job is the sanity check of the Old Testament.
Yeah, I read Job, and it truly paints God as a big petty POS. I wouldn't say any real God is that way, just the one depicted.
Cody, it was God, you can't say "Well, I told Satan to rough you up a little bit, he didn't have to, he was just following my command...I wasn't the one who actually did it." Well, I guess with that logic Charlie Manson should be a free man.
I'm glad you brought that up, God told him he could murder his whole family. Now, Lets go to human court...I'll make this is short as possible...
Lets say I have Dog chained up in my yard, Tax man comes by, I unchain my Dog and command it to kill the Tax man. Am I at fault?
@@Texag64ell, yeah, being wrong makes you a bad teacher. Lets try it more your way
My loyal employee comes over to my place with my Dog Satan tied up...
My Dog Satan starts barking and barking and growling, sure I have him tied up...but lets just see what he does if I let him go on my loyal employee
Oh shit, didn't see that coming duuuuhhhhhhhhhh
This should be mandatory viewing in every school in America, if we survive our current narcissist crisis.
Tinhuviel it should be in every school of the world, with an added part/counterpart on politicians for more secular countries.
Though in the USA’s case, you seem to need both :/
EDIT : I first thought this video didn’t point out narcissism and its consequences in the political landscape but I came back on my judgement past the second half of the video.
@@nathanjora7627 We also need to have a reckoning (in the US) with the hatred towards those who are not religious. I wonder how many presidents and senators and reps, etc, would lose their support if it was found they weren't religious. I think of the hate that the Muslims reps have gotten and then think that any atheist would get it twice as bad.
Emerald kat Yep...
Honestly, for all the things I dislike the USA for, I have infinitely more pity thinking about what a great project was ruined utterly by ignorant bigots.
I hope you’ll be able to make your founding fathers’ dream come true, just like mine (our society is very secular, I think it would please the like Benjamin Franklin, but it’s an utter failure as for universalism, revolutionary republicanism, or enlightenment... Point is : let us try to make our countries finally great for once ^^)
@@emeraldkat2167 Perhaps we imagine it worse than it is; current progressives have successfully introduced Socialist policies where before it was considered political suicide. Sometimes our fears are worse than their bite.
@@BigHeretic We have neither pure socialism nor pure capitalism in America. We have socialist entities like the National Weather Service, the military, food stamps, Medicare and Medicaid--the list of "socialist" entities in the United States is quite extensive. But we also have a market that is somewhat free and somewhat regulated. Anyone who labels America as "free market capitalism" is either stupid or dishonest.
Then there's the U.S. military, possibly the most communistic institution in America, IF you THINK about it. Gotta wear the same clothes, eat what you're given, work in thejob you're assigned, like it or not; live in designated housing, accept designated status (private, captain, etc.--YOU don't get to choose, do you?), do and even THINK the same way as the rest of your comrades.
This series of videos should be mandatory material at all state schools.
And religious too. Oh hell, why not churches ( not the chicken churches) too.
Now to that I can say "Amen!"
true
@@rexbettencourt3800 what's a chicken church?
@@ketchup143 You see, there's Churches Chicken on one side of town and then there's KFC on the other. We both know that KFC is the false chicken while Churches is the REAL ONE... because it has the word "CHURCH" in it......
Hahahaha hahaha hahahaha hahahaha Oh I kill myself........ hahahahahahaha
Fun fact: the full phrase of "blood is thicker than water" is "the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb" which basically means the exact opposite of what is usually infered, that the family you choose is stronger than the one you were born into
This channel is a gold mine for characteristics to add to antagonists in stories.
This one really touched me, fellas. Absolutely brilliant.
I want to thank QualiaSoup for taking the time to join TheraminTrees on these videos. His contributions do not go unnoticed.
Hey Tim
The fable of the Job story alone is enough for my unbelief, I am thrilled its hypocrisy was hit on in this awesome display of rationale.
Hoping you and yours are well of course.
belaireguy411 likewise. Job is an amazingly telling story in that it explicitly states Yahweh’s intentions. There’s no room for “greater good” apologetics.
I wish you well also.
Hey Tim and Belaireguy. Yep, depressing to see folks defend the story of Job - only just this week I saw an apologetic video, emphasising the part of the story where Yahweh talks about how deep his own knowledge is, and that Job couldn't hope to understand his 'ways'. That was their line of defence: we just can't understand Yahweh's 'ways' so everything he does is fine. Sad to see all the fawning comments from people who just accepted that line - when his 'ways' are made perfectly clear in the story.
TheraminTrees
The fawning comments are cringeworthy but those of religiosity would much attack me rather than my arguments. Even as an atheist, I tried to find maybe a cross reference in the Bible where the Satan character was the instigator. That of course was a futile task, you can't really take away God mentioning Job's name first. I lately have been sparring with one of the best apologists named IP (Inspiring Philosophy), primarily on that incoherent and contradictory Trinity doctrine. Of course we went around and around in the comment section on his extremely biased Job video. IP is brilliant as they get. Know you're a busy guy, will post a link to it if you are interested and if you want to laugh until your stomach hurts, the Darkmatter2525 video will do it.
ruclips.net/user/results?search_query=IP+and+the+Job+story
These days or really since becoming an atheist, I make a sincere effort in keeping any personal attacks in check. Surprisingly, this is what IP replied with recently.
"No, you are changing the subject and being very rude. We can do without the arrogant condescending remarks. You’re not fooling anyone with your patronizing comments."
I was actually surprised he would even say that. I certainly hope you and yours are well.
Oh and fyi, I am one of your patreons, you being the only one supported to date, the name is Russell. Have a great weekend!
belaireguy411 IP has a habit of distorting scientific papers to say things they don’t say and distorting soundly justified frustration as “patronizing” and “rude”. Any distortion his brain can make that protects his illusion that he’s the one with a rational position.
I'm divorcing a narcissist and for years I thought I was the problem. Great video.
Good luck with that. Be prepared for an onslaught of false promises then threats and abuse.
"Maniacal child" is a perfect descriptor of the god of the bible, as well as those malignant narcissists I've encountered throughout my life. I understood this when taught "religion" as a child and rejected much of it at the time, but importantly, the bad behavior helped me recognize it in humans, even as I have had to endure the abuse. Narcissism is insidious and destructive. I've fully rejected it all now, but "grey rock" approach is not always an available tactic when dealing with malignant narc humans.
Oh, so, that's what it was, that stopped me from going no contact with my narcissistic mother- naive compassion. I am very naive anyways, due to my Asperger's. I genuinely loved and believed her. What a stupid waste of 30 years.
The truth sets you free
Same here... I had to go non contact to keep from being more broken, which in turn is breaking me ... can't win
"Do not bow to me."
"You do not wish it?"
"I do not deserve it."
-Jean-Luc Picard, a better being by far than Abraham's god, straightens out a primitive alien
Nice.
Maladjester, love your name, however you have not ( from your comment) met the God of Abraham. I used to hate and distrust him due to childhood abuse and mormon upbringing. He revealed Himself , lve been peaceful, joyful and free of narcissistic, legalistic religious creeps ever since. Peace.
@revilo 2000 I hope the psychiatrist is not all for jesus
@Krauser II You use one of the most toxic forms of abuse, yet presumably want to be free of it yourself, hypocritical, ironic, or both?
@@all4jesus594It seems you're the golden child for now.
But how long will it last?
I cannot say enough how greatfull I am for your channel. I am a victim of narcisstic abuse for 57 years now. I know it since 3 years. So traumatised and brainwashed and the feeling of helplessness and complete isolation ,I searched for help in "speciallised" therapists. 2 of them were narcissists too. The toxic shame made me so sick. I then asked God for help and read in the bible and I felt even more ashamed. I work on my healing every day since 3 years and slowly I became better. It is not easy and it takes time but I will continue. Your Videos are so eyeopening and helpful to make aware of the internalised traits from the narcissists in my life, like echo as an enabler and flying monkey with naive compassion. Thank you so much. I realise that I am still in the traumabond or" betrayalbond". I work also with this book " betrayal bond ".very good book. Thank you so much.(Sorry for my bad English;))
How have you been since you wrote this comment?
@@ketz_165 hi, it is really much better but I am not completely out of the Traumabond. I am working on this every day. It is really a lot of inner work but without doing this it is impossible to heal. Richard Grannon 's courses and his coaches helped me a lot and also Ellie Frost and her course. Good luck
As an atheist who is currently struggling with the remains of religious guilt, your videos have provided a logical comfort for me. Thank you.
why you are suffering from religious guilt ... ?
@@UnlimitlesslyFunnyDude Usually when people leave a religion, it sets a large strain on them emotionally, wether from attachment to the people they knew or things they did. This is usually the case since religion indoctrinates from birth, forming an individuals entire social life and structure around the religion. Leaving this system and seeing the truth can, understandably, upset some people. All we have to do is offer them our utmost support, in whichever decision they make; to return to religion or open their eyes.
I'm an atheist too. I'm also an ex-Christian. I feel your pain. Hope you're doing okay.
26:15 Your tale of your narcissistic parent reminds me so much of my own narcissistic parent.
I recognized that she was never going to change, so it was up to me to make the needed changes. Like you, I also employed the "grey rock" strategy of shutting down all non-essential communications, limiting contact, no sharing of confidences. In time, I built a hard wall of determination around myself.
My efforts paid off. One day she came to me to create a drama out of nothing, I decisively shut her down. I established boundaries, and I enforced them. But perhaps like you, I succumbed to a bit of hubris. I thought perhaps she had changed, that I could have a healthy relationship with her. I was dead wrong. She didn't change, she just changed tactics, found more subtle ways to fuck with me. Eventually all the narcissistic controlling drama-seeking bullshit came back in full force.
While I haven't completely cut off contact, I'd like to think I've limited her destructive influence on my life as much as possible.
DrownedInExile. I cut contact with my mother at 21, my telephone - requiring employer understood that my phone went off the hook from Nov 1 to Jan 1 for 30 years, severed contact with an aunt, much older sister, brother-in-law, and two beloved nieces at 25. And had most people hounding me to get back with her as if it was my fault, some actually blaming the children in such situations, many saying my love would "fix" her. Anyone who had to deal with her changed their tune. It's very good that people now better understand.
One Xmas, I visited a friend in another state but returned the on the 27th. I was greeted by my mother with, "I got you this (nice present) but you weren't here, so I took it back."
If narcissists HAVE read from the same book, she hardly got as far as the table of contents.
That's exactly the non descriptive narc child says about me to cover up his evils.
its like they have an endless hole that needs to be filled with feeling like theyre needed
its weird because i thought i was a very intelligent human being at least in school. but somehow narcissistic abuse seems hard to spot. i think at times... its actually right there in front of us, but i think the purest hearts may be the easiest to abuse as narcissists can prey on any vulnerability or naive compassion
Yellow rock is also a path to consider- going grey can sometimes incur retaliation. Yellow rock is effectively gray rock but with the caveat that you give the minimal response in order to guard your safety in the moment. Thank you for helping me in my deconstruction and understanding of narcissists (as amateur as i may be)- it’s helped me help others in small ways to get out from abusive relationships by sharing information and giving them support.
Glad to have helped. By the way, I discuss what you call 'yellow rock' - which I've called 'beige rock' - in the video 'living with abusers'.
There is no yellow rock
You wanna know what Zeus said to Narcissus? - "You'd better watch yourself"
Good one😂
Manson?
He'd probably do it in a mirror instead of his own mind
Say 10, In between filming in CASABLANCA, Bogart taught Bergman poker. . . the phrase "Here's looking at you kid" was improvised by Bogart when he beat her hand by laying face cards - a king, queen, and jack ...
say no more
It's like when people say "Well life's not fair..." Like that's an answer to anything... I like to quip back, "You're absolutely right about that... So What can we get started so we can work on fixing it or at least get it heading in a fairer direction?" And if they scoff at that... " Well then, what have you done to make it a bit more fair in the long run then?"
I can’t tell the difference between QualiSoup’s voice and TheremainTree’s voice. When I found this channel I actually thought they were the same person lol. Another excellent video
Theramin’s is deeper.
Holdup, I know this comment is a year old but does Qualia speak in this video??
@@roros4amvlogs243 I never realized both of them were actually speaking in this video!
@@jorgitoaral damn this channel changed my sense of reality once again
There are two different people talking in this video?
I'm saddened to hear you and Qualia had that kind of abuse in your youth.
Double whammy - abusive religion *and* abusive parents. That really is unfortunate.
@@Guncriminal If you ask me, any parent who forces a child into religion is abusive on that point alone.
@@emeraldkat2167 PREACH!
Its safe to say that its quite common all around the world. And it was a sad situation
Psh, He's just looking for attention telling that to strangers on the internet. Like...who DOES that? That's why he deserved it.
(Sarcasm over)
thank you. I've been thinkin a lot lately about how narcissists were drawn to religions like that. That's been a thing for me lately. It's refreshing to hear someone else to say it.
Your videos are helping me a lot. It is incredible how guilt and manipulation can make people blind to clear abuse. Your work is really liberating.
This channel is a testament to clear thinking logic and reason. Very enlightening and thoroughly entertaining. Top notch work.
On a whim, I came back to this video after reflecting on the two-parter about the imposter, and it's amazing how many details just slip into place after hearing the stories from those videos. Hearing "if their actions caused destruction, harm, even death, blame was deflected onto others" and knowing about Rags... it hits so much harder.
I openly admitted to worshipping my narcissistic exwife, but it's only in the last few months that I realized I was fawning, and only upon watching this video that I realized the worship and the fawning are one-and-the-same. Really good stuff here, much appreciated
amazing analysis. Love how you dismantled the need to be worshipped of deity, and religion based on such deities. This is really impactful, because so much has been based on such values in humanity, and these values sometimes transferred even in domains unrelated to religion.
Wow, another great video. You're a candle in the dark. You give me so much needed hope to keep going. Greetings from México.
Inti 666 candle? The dude’s literally the sun.
You seem like a nice person
Why do America hate Mexico?
I don't
You are so amazingly articulate and organized.
I am not a genius but I recognize genius when I see it.
Thank you for being here.
When I heard them talk about "behaving for a time" and not expecting narcissists to change, it made me think about another video where they mentioned that their parents said that they were "ashamed of how they acted" and "were proud of the people you'd become." Made me sad to think that their reconciliation with their parents might have been an act. : /
Sadly, yes - as I noted to someone else, those statements turned out to be worthless. The narcissist later rewrote history, 'forgetting' every instance of mistreatment - which is straight out of the 'narcissist handbook'. It really was 'behaving for a time'.
Thank you thank you thank you for these videos. Seriously. I'm binge watching them today. And as a consequence feeling like I can do "this". "This" being continuing to improve myself as a person, instead of blaming, excusing, deceiving, faking. These videos help expose parts of my shadow that have been there forever and need attention. Especially my ego.
Thank you so much, i am finally understanding narcissism and understanding how my childhood family was interwoven with it. If i could vote thumbs up more than once, i would. I will share it with a couple of friends. A wonderfully done video, by the way!
Dear TheraminTrees, some of my early memories about learning to pray was, to overcome the feeling of submission. It felt like a combination of feeling silly, and not wanting to do it, to lower myself to this entity, to grovel.
With time and family pressure however, I pushed to the back of my mind all those confusing feelings. Later as I started evaluating my belief, those feelings that I got when I first started worshipping, bubbled up to the surface.
Worship is a learned behavior. It forces the followers of a religion to ignore their individuality, Their pride, Their self worth, their freedom, and their dignity. These are the same characteristics absent from a Slave beholden to his master. Which is what Islam Prides itself about. Muslims say, as a point of pride, that they are slaves of Allah.
I wonder, Is it too, why most evangelicals supported Trump. They supported him despite his womanizing, narcissistic and authoritarian tendencies.
Or why so many people support capitalism despite being made slaves to their bosses or corporations, those corporations exerting control over the government to sustain themselves, and push us down such that we don't see the problems for what they truly are, or don't see any solution, and don't fight back.
"tendencies" is minimization
Sure but even with that it's far from ideal, no point in keeping it around just for the sake of keeping it even if it could work okayish with some supplementary stuff.
"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function." - The Essay "The Crack-Up" by F. Scott Fitzgerald 🌀
Yes! This is exactly why I was so uneasy about Christianity. I remember being a 10-year old kid and reading a cheery little comic about Job. God said to Job in the comic that he punished Job because Job made a mistake, but it confused me so much because I remembered that God was only torturing Job because Satan made a bet with him.
when i was a kid i asked an evanglist's wife why God allowed Job to be tortured when he was probably his most loyal follower. She said that he stopped praying regularly. I disagreed, but before I could say "no he didnt" she left.
Pertinent of current US politics, thanks.
Now I ponder polytheism... Certainly much less cognitive dissonance with some gods doing good and others doing evil... (Not that I believe it, but it is certainly easier than a monotheistic outlook.)
@@ellag3265 that's kinda how it is in Zoroastrianism
I mean yeah. It's much easier to believe something like.
Their is a god of kindness, love and justice.
Fighting a god of evil, corruption and hatred.
Who together perhaps originally created the world. When bad things happen, natural disasters and plagues, evil god won a battle.
When miracles and great weather events that helped people happen, good god won.
Instead of trying to justify a singular god doing both good and evil all the time.
Depends on the polytheism and how evil is defined. In ancient Egypt, evil is a natural byproduct of everything having free will. It builds up and needs regular draining and care-- like a wound in reality. The gods are actively trying to erase it (evil), refining creation as they go because creation itself was unintentional and thus contained errors.
@@Xebelan that sounds like it makes a lot of sense, actually, much more than monotheism. But I just don't see how any being requires to be worshipped. Respect may be deserved, at most, but certainly not worship.
@@larsswig912 The Egyptian Gods excuse mankind from having to worship them. It was a by-choice thing. Atheists had a special place in the afterlife as the Netjeru certainly believe in them if they are moral people, and do not mind if the atheists did not return the favor. It's part of the tale of the Destruction of Mankind (the one where Sekhmet has to be lured to sleep with an ocean of pomegranate sweetened beer to stop her rampage when mankind made her father Ra cry by telling him to "fuck off" more or less) where Ra sets out the laws for the conduct of the Netjeru so that they will not abuse mankind or force them to obey. He was horrified that his despair had prompted such insanity. Ra is not king because he's the most powerful-- he's king because he's the most moral.
Your videos make me feel guilty about ways I've manipulated people in the past.
Better guilty than proud. I'm glad you've been able to grow and improve.
@~*UwU*~ no problem, that's happened to me too before. I could read the first bits of some of them. Thanks for your time and feedback.
You are developing more empathy, lean into the growth. It’s a sign you are becoming a better person.
@@highlandparkguitarlessons8129 2 years later i can safely say i recovered from my selfish ways
@@highlandparkguitarlessons8129 it might sound like an excuse, but i was genuinely naive
From QualiaSoup and TheraminTrees I can brew my own golden tea. Sincere thanks to the both of you, even so many years later, for making the world a little bit easier to understand. These videos are an absolute treasure trove.
Now I'm off to try and distinguish whose voice is whose, lol! :D
Thank you! This is extremely accurate and I will use it to educate my friends on narcissistic people and 'gods'. I wish I had seen and understood this 15 years ago, then so much suffering would have been avoided.. keep up the good work!
You are the best psychological analysis channel I know.
And the kindest and the harshest and and and just AWESOME!
It is absolutely astounding, even unsettling at times, just how accurate you are in these videos. You are doing an amazing job and I am sure many can open their eyes to the real world thanks to you.
I don't get why we're all punished because some Adam and Eve who I've never even met no one else has ever met managed to screw up a perfect garden why does that affect the rest of the human race
This is so awesome I don't have words. Your explanation of narcissists with both Yahweh and examples of real-life narcissistic personalities and relationships that ensues is a perfect description of the abusive relationship that I have just woken up to. Listening to atheists videos including yours woke me up to the abuse I was suffering by demonstrating religion and gods as abusive. This video was horribly painful (because of how accurate it is) but so enlightening. Thank you.
Yes religion is questionable, I'm also reminded of the film of the God's of Ancient Greece "Jason and the Argonauts" when Jason says " One day man will learn to do without the Gods " due to his misfortune. Also Jason overcomes trials with his own rationality. Who can forget those flying tormentors stealing the food of the blind man as a punishment from the God's ? A great euphemism - like the wizard of oz - for flying monkeys!
@@jacquikelly7929 I cant say Ive seen a version/translation that has that line, could you let me know what it is?
@@turtlememes2334 hi if you can get a copy of the DVD ... Jason and the argonauts... it explains everything about trials in life. A great film, hope this helps.
Finally! A RUclips content creator that uses the term gaslighting and knows the plot of "Gaslight!" :)
Another great video. You guys don't get nearly the recognition this content deserves
Your videos almost always describe my religious dad and stepmom to a T. You've helped me immeasurably to overcome the psychological fleas I got from layong with religious dogs. Thank you.
This hits all the nails on the head. My JW mother is unhappily married to my narcissistic JW father, and I wish there was some way to get her to absorb this without her mental shields going up.
Why are you absolving your mother of responsibility?
Tech Romancer Huh?
It seemed as if your initial comment was somehow painting your mother as a victim in all of this with no culpability for her current state of affairs and her decisions leading up to them.
Your mother is 'unhappy', but you mentioned nothing of your father's side of the equation. Merely labeling him as narcissistic as if that somehow makes him the only one with responsibility in all of this.
If I assumed wrong, I apologize.
No, no she's totally responsible for whatever she does, but sadly she's in a high-control manipulative group (the JWs) that dampens the critical thinking of its members. Were she to view this video, her JW 'training' would kick in because she would see it as an 'attack' from Satan to try and weaken her faith. I was lamenting the fact that this video provides so much insight into the dysfunction of her religious/marital situation, but that very situation makes her unlikely to be receptive to those insights. I hope that she finds her way out of her mental prison and I recognize that she's the one who has to take that first step, but it's still frustrating to see her living unhappily.
Understood. But again, you made no mention of your father. Are you saying he is the only one content with this situation?
As I'm listening to your description of narcissistic gods, I think I finally understand why American christians support trump. He's the embodiment of their god.
Christians have elevated America to the land and people God chose. “We are a Christian nation.” Narcissistic Fundamentalist Christians - almost necessarily Republican - believe that he who represents these values and beliefs is the domestic version of the Pope.
Man that hit hard good job Theramin & Qualia Soup.
It got me thinking.
What kind of parent would purposely
hide all traces of it's existence from it's children & then try to communicate it's wishes through means, that are indistinguishable from coincidence, in an attempt to get to know them & warn them about the impending Hell fire.?
parents with restraining orders, or ones who broke out of jail.
@@zegmakker5869 New thriller novel: God is a space prisoner on the loose and is messing up small civilizations by sending cryptic messages their way
@@dryfox11 Actually a good idea for a novel.
Incredibly well made video again. Your reasoning is superb and so accessible. Love the graphics, thanks for all the effort you put into this. Just want to share, share, share.
Thank you for this. This was amazingly comprehensive, beautiful, and perfect.
I have deep respect for you, you just summarized my childhood in the last 4 minutes. Thank you, for making it more clear for me.
I was watching this video while one of my daughters was helping me put things into my calendar on my smartphone. Eventually, I realized this video was about the other daughter that the two of us were talking about. Thank you for helping me see the extent to which the manipulation and exploitation will continue, if allowed. I had already recommended that my one daughter cut her sister out of her life. Now I know it is the only stable option.
Must be VERY painful to have to do this to one of your own child to protect the other one from harm. I admire your strength to be able to make the decision and trying to help your child who has been manipulated and receiving undeserved suffering. It is probably hard for her too!
honestly you sound like the narcissist here
I never noticed this before, but the shadow of the God in the beginning forms a cross. That is a very nice touch
In the opening comic when the man admitted he was the one who had cancer i honestly choked on my cheerios and had to pause the video and laugh for five minutes straight while writing this comment ...
So beautiful a description of every person i know ...
I'm an undergrad getting my BA in Psychology(transferring to a Grad School to get my Masters in Counseling), and I find your videos fascinating! I live in the South in the US, and it is extremly hard to find psych/secular books here(they put The God Delusion behind the counter at the library) Thank you so very much!
Reading your comment, I'm just thinking about all the unnecessary 'shaming' incurred in putting a book like The God Delusion behind the counter. By doing this, the book becomes a forbidden object - and the act of borrowing a book becomes a radical one, when it should be a mundane one. I'm sure for some folks, sadly, that simple barrier is enough to discourage them from taking it out. It's a great example of the subtle social dissuasions that try to put ideas out of reach. I majored in psychology too - so best of luck with your degree!
You are a liar. Wtf are you lying for. The south?! You are a liar pretending this isn't modern times
This video deserves millions of views.
What a relief to hear someone talking sense about religious stuff - thanks 😃
"In the era of the gods, there once was god who stated; 'I am the only god!' Following said statement. All other gods laughed themselves to death"
Someone recommended this video of yours and I'm glad they did. It was excellent! Thank you!
Great, well thought out video as always! And for me, it’s very timely too. My sister-in-law is dealing with a narcissist right now, her boyfriend. He’s probably going to lose his job because he’s skipped it so much, and he’s blaming her for making him feel “depressed” because he can “only think about what she did in the past” when he sees her. Yet while he has cheated on her several times, she has been loyal. He’s abusive and neglectful to their children, and presents a double standard for them, ignoring his daughter’s bad behavior while punishing the son for the same behavior. I’m glad to see this video, and I hope my sister-in-law can find her way out of this hell.
I just realised i never get any ad on this channel. I really wish there would be so you could make money out of these videos. Mind opening channels are probably one of the greatest things of internet. One person’s teaching can greatly improve the world
I'm going to spin out a hypothesis, somewhat based on your video, about William Lane Craig. He justifies (in his mind) the worst acts of the bible, the worst acts in human history unconnected with JHVH, and the worst natural disasters as *good* things.
When it comes to religious apologists as enablers it's sometimes hard to tell if they really believe what they're saying or it's just a way of making money. I suspect WLC actually believes this stuff.
Now to drag some strands together out of which to weave my hypothesis.
There are many similarities between victims of family abuse and kidnap victims or hostages. The kidnapper or hostage taker may not be particularly narcissistic, the intent is not to get praise or cause drama, but the results are the same. The victim/hostage starts to identify with the abuser and to justify the abuser's actions. "John is hitting me _because I did something wrong." and "The thieves were right to rob the bank because the system is against them and so of course they needed hostages." The victims deflect some of the pain by assuming the abuser has greater wisdom. In essence, victims of family abuse develop Stockholm Syndrome.
It used to be common for devout people to describe themselves as "god-fearing." A few years ago I talked with a Jehovah's Witness who described himself as "god-fearing" and he meant it literally. I believe that many people who used that term also meant it literally. They are in perpetual fear of what god may do to them if they make a mistake. They describe their god as just and loving and wise and yet also fear him. Which seems to me to be very much how those with Stockholm Syndrome and victims of family abuse behave.
My hypothesis is that William Lane Craig spouts his repulsive, vile crap because he is suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.
I doubt he suffers much, considering what he gets for making an appearance at a lecture or debate. The ones who are stuck in this game and haven't figured out how to make this scam work for them ... THERE's where the real suffering is.
he is just another cheerleader for his sado-maso god. the safe word is 'forgiveness'
Hmph, some safeword. Personally, I do not and cannot see Yahweh or his cult as Safe, Sane OR Consensual. Indeed, they are the antithesis of all three.
+logan xavier
You win the internets.
I know this is old, perhaps no one will ever see it, but...
I think the whole TAG and presup performance is a clever maneuver for mean- spirited theists to:
- beat up on unsuspecting atheist folks with sealioning techniques, as revenge for their hurt over the lack of success with evidentiary logic in regards to creationism.
- trick unsuspectingy vulnerable other folks looking on into repenting or converting out of subliminal and vicarious emotional manipulation of religious and other abuse triggers by acting out abusive scenarios in the main conversation or a special sidekick conversant and using loaded "dog whistle" phrases, instead of good reason or logic.
-but mostly its a rich psychodrama with the presuppers/Kellyanne Conway/her BOSS, assuming authoritarian roles versus the opponent's submissive victim role. The low logic, highly emotive type individual is indoctrinated and suitably numb, as well as conditioned to put thinking into hibernation and focus on emotional tone and drama every first day of the week! They eat this stuff up!
Add Jorden Petersen's recent thoughts that a true atheist would be an immoral supervillain, along with a detailed, top lofty literary critique supporting his description, but don't worry there's no such thing as a true atheist, wink, wink! to the presuppers harsh disdain and psychodramatic emotional entrainment (mob rule!) of the base of the supporters (presupporters!?!) Try watching a performance by our president with the sound turned off, preferably a campaign rally where he's talking to his base supporters.
Hmn... Today is Corpus Christi, a national christian holiday where I live. Got time to watch the video you just uploaded ;-) thx
I knew what the words mean, and I know of the city in Texas, but I had never heard of the feast. I am reading about it now. Where do you live, and how is it observed there?
Allthough I got the idea from a story, I've long wondered what a catholic would do if the "transsubstansiated" bread actually turned into a bit of human flesh(in every sense of the word, visually, in shape, aroma, taste, etc), preferably something recognizable, like a foot or hand. It seems as if there is no getting around the idea that they'd be utterly religiously obligated to eat the part, with even more enthusiasm than ever before.
I don't really know, like many christians here, I just enjoy the day off. I live in Brazil and the major religion is christianity, major branch is catholic, about 85% catholic or something like that. But yes, it is observed just like the man above just said. You eat a snack(?) representing(?) the body of christ. You go to the mass, you don't eat meat, the bishop must be there, you praise the holy trinity and so on. Oh, some cities have people lay carpets with religious drawings around the streets so people walk on them, it's quite beautiful, those huge colored carpets and people drop flowers, cereals and everything.
This was so well put together it deserves some kind of award, plaque, metal, etc... bravo bravo!
This is an absolute masterpiece. Thanks so much for putting quality content out there for free. I don't fully know how and why this gets to me the way it does, but I feel like I can learn so much from your reasoning and dissection of bad ideas and concepts.
so off topic but oh my lord your voice is so nice
Your descriptions of narcissistic abuse in partners and family settings is (unfortunately) extremely accurate. My father was narcissistic and emotionally very abusive towards myself, my sister and especially my mother. My father used guilt and gas-lighting to maintain his control over us. He was certain my mother was cheating on him, despite her having a full time job and two kids to look after. But he needed to be a victim in every sense, it was his only way of receiving gratification. We had to wait until my sister and I were of legal adult age to leave him, in case he took his rejected outrage on us (his own children).
I went to therapy a year ago, to vent about this abuse in great detail to a lovely woman in her late 30's, a mother of three young kids. She would get very invested in the abuse I went through as a child, and what my home-life was like. She even teared up during on of my ramblings about it all. I thought it was sympathy at the time, but it wasn't - it was empathy. I just wish she told me.
On July 23rd, 2018 - she was murdered by her ex husband in her own home. An execution he felt she deserved because she rejected him and his narcissistic abuse by leaving, he was also obsessed with the unsubstantiated claim that she was cheating on him...despite her having a full time job and three kids to look after.
Suddenly it became quite clear that indeed narcissists follow the same script, the more I learned about her killer, the more familiar he became - much to my heartache and horror.
R.I.P. Samantha. You deserved much better than this.
Beautiful font. (The clip was excellent in other respects, but I'm listening to this while trying to design some letters of my own. If that alphabet is your creation, color me jealous of your hard work and skill. Many thanks.)
Qualia designed this font one afternoon especially for our joint videos. Nice to give them a typographical identity. Type work's great fun - good luck with yours.
For both of you, from the bottom of my heart:
Theramintrees and Qualiasoup, your videos have impacted my life, beliefs, and relationships in a big way; for the better. I remember both of you fondly from the atheistic YT days.
Content - thoughtful; editing - way above what was expected then, and now; arguments - sometimes better explained than by my philosophy teachers.
Whatever your private lives look like now, I wish and hope you both the very best. Your work has impacted lives of many people in profound ways. Your lives have not been in vain. I hope to someday positively impact lives of others in my own way. When I do that: you will be part of what brought me there.
I shall now commence watching the video 😌
We are both very touched by your message. Thank you.
I genuinely logged back onto my computer because I wanted to rewatch losing faith but I guess I'm doing this now
Oh my. This one was pretty related, talking about your relationships with your parents and such. I imagine that this topic was largely inspired by a reengagement with your mother, prompted by her current (former?) condition, which went more poorly than you guys had hoped. I suppose the details of the matter aren't my business, but I wish you two the best.
Never reconnect. Though you may need to prove to yourself that you were right and your perceptions/memories correct, don't expect improvement. If the monster seems to have improved over time, is so much better, wants to make amends, etc, there will be an instant relapse with you back in the picture. If you are their only or favored target you may improve their life as well as your own by staying away.
We're in different countries and yet our childhoods seem so familiar.
It's just human nature, is it?
These videos have been so healing and enlightening as I've extricate myself from the gnarled cloying grip of my upbringing with two narcissistic parents.
Thank you!!!
I'm sure you know this but you're not ever alone.
This is important to me on so many levels and I love the positive sentiment that observing these behaviors can help inform us to grow wiser (if we choose to find the lesson).
it is not a choice. it is about survival for a very young child. 0:00
I swear, this channel more and more perfectly elucidates all the hypocrisy and mental/social abuses in religious groups.....
Thank you both for your amazing videos that somehow just keep getting better and better. I'm an ex JW and finding your channels along with a couple of others more dedicated to JW's have helped me be free for the past 12 months. It's been a scary but liberating time and I thank you for the role you've played. Please don't stop making these life-changing videos.
And this is why I am polythiestic pagan. From my beliefs, the gods do not need to be worshipped, but appreciate it when you do. They will gove uou signs they are there, speak to you, even be your friend. Another ver important part is to not force your own beliefs on others and to be open to any knowledge you come across. If you want religious faith without a monotheistic god, I would recommend paganism, but of course, it is entirely up to you.
Tis is one of the best and most helpful videos I have ever seen. I escaped the narcissist I married and shortly after walked away from the narcissist I worshipped. Great information here that will benefit many.
My father is a narcissist and my mother is an enabler. We were in a church that ostracizes anyone who leaves. I got out of my parents home by getting married and my spouse was a narcissist. This video gives me chills.
The content of your material is truly healing. But it’s your music that brings the heavens down to earth. Amazing acoustics!
If I addressed the clarity of your visuals, this comment would become a commentary of many paragraphs.
Your voice renders me silent, for I hear the clarity of Gods truth through it. The internet is fearfully and wonderfully made,
And your work is a reminder that clarity and constructive criticism can still be gleaned from the World Wide Web.
You put the health of human relationships above all else, a true voice in the wilderness calling men to realign with reality.
The mirror you provide me and my faith, is priceless. Less like a mirror and more like still waters, allowing me to clean the dirt of my poorly perceived divinity.
Thank you. I will continue to eat and share the fruits of your labour.
I believe in God and I believe in you.
One of the best videos ever. !!!!
Had worked how religion operates myself long ago. But its great how well you point it out. They prey on people in the most sly ways ever.
Bloody Romans.
Truely fantastic.
I often tend to watch your videos when I'm feeling like I'm relapsing and these help me immensely to see worth in myself once again, without obsessing over opinion of others
I wanna say my point of view on narcissism here (anyone, feel free to respond). Narcissism is a based-formed defense mechanism. It's the shame of being "ordinary" or "not good enough". It's full of magical thinking and rooted deep-heartbreaking trauma.
Narcissists shame others the same way the have been shamed and the same way they shame themselves. Shame is a trauma-response-emotion. Think about it this way: if something about me makes me ashamed, I won't try to show it to people. Maybe I live in a culture in which that trait is received with violence. Maybe the shame is keeping me safe.
Think about gays who live in homophobic cultures, don't go out of the closet and shame other gay people. "I'm not like them. I'm one of the good guys. Please, love me".
Of course, when you don't show that unconditional love and adoration, the narcissist reacts the same way a 3 year old would. Fear. Anger. Hatred. Lashing, quick emotions. It's like the cry for help of a child that feels like they are about to lose their mom.
They form this grandiouse image of themselves to make up for all the abuse they got. Their ego holds on all the triggers. They get triggered all the time cause they are full of trauma. It's not born out of love, but rather out of fear, shame, hidden pain that they bury deep down cause it's so much that feeling it feels like the end of the world. They are always running away from their past, running away from the trauma, trying to not live that again in the future. They blame themselves for the abuse (unconsciously. They don't neccessarily have to agree that the abuse was right, but at least find ways to justify it when it comes to them) because that gives them a false sense of control that gives them hope. "If it's my fault, I can change it". They hold on to that hope. They are depressed. They are the kinds of people that think "All I want is to have my own family/to have X job/to have X, and once I have it, I'll be happy".
It's a defense mechanism that is constantly encouraged by some cultures (cultures can be "toxic") and social structures.
It reminds me of the alpha wolf theory and how the guy that wrote the book that popularized the term spent decades begging the editorial to drop it down cause it was factually wrong. Wolves in captivity don't behave the same way that wolves who are free and the theory was based on the behavior of wolves who were forcefully captured and imprisoned for the study.
I observe the same kind of social dynamics in the captured wolves, human prisons, schools, abusive/"narcissistic" families, social roles...
I also know about human societies/cultures that act more like the wolves in their natural habitats.
I wanna end this comment saying: no, it's not you, it's your environment. And if you are struggling, I'm sorry the people around you suck.
One "tell" in religious narcissists like Ravi Zacharias is that they assume the person of God, as if they are God, and make statements like this: "I am the one who can heal you. Come to ME and I will save your soul. Come to ME for salvation."
They pretend to speak in the voice of God in the first person, but really they're just advertising themselves.
I've recently spent a bit of time playing The Sims 2 for some nostalgia, and learning about narcissistic behaviors from this video made me think differently about one of the premade families in the game. The household consists of middle-aged couple Daniel and Mary-Sue Pleasant and their teenage identical twin daughters Angela and Lilith. You can probably see from the names which narcissism-indicating family dynamic is being played out. Looking at the twins' memories shows that Angela has always been cared for and encouraged, while Lilith was neglected and basically left to raise herself; I always found this disturbing, but now I have the vocabulary to describe it as a very clear Golden Child/Scapegoat dynamic. Of course, this being a Sims game, characters' personalities are up to interpretation, but now that I've seen this in the fictional family, I really can't unsee it. I'm not sure whether the narcissistic parent is Daniel or Mary-Sue or both, though I suspect it's Daniel because of some other indicators (deep need for attention, causing drama, infidelity).
Perhaps the most disturbing thing about this dynamic I've noticed, however, is the fact that the current devs of The Sims 4 seem willing to play up the Golden Child/Scapegoat dynamic, as versions of Angela and Lilith in the Sims 4 library assign them traits that support the good-twin-evil-twin setup. It's as if the developers are also trying to slot the characters into these roles. Considering how the marketing for the Sims series has gotten more into celebrities creating their "SimSelves" since the series left Will Wright and Maxis's hands, it seems like there's a bit more of an emphasis on the narcissistic aspects of playing SimGod (down to potentially putting an idealized avatar of oneself into the game) over the storytelling aspects that make Sims 2 such a nostalgic game for me.
Very informational! I love you TheraminTrees