It's clear to me now that the pilot became spatially disoriented. He ignored what the instruments were indicating and trusted instead what his senses were telling him.
@Some One How does one teach IFR? By DOING IFR! VFR too for that matter. Except where it's impossible (single seat plane) or unless this guy was purely a ground instructor, which I don't think was the case, an instructor taught/teachs IFR by doing IFR in the bird with the student pilot first that later the student does it. Somehow, in the clutch he apparently forgot/failed to execute everything he knew. Maybe overconfidence, maybe something medical even.
4 года назад+1
@Some One If that's the case I agree with you. My possible incorrect understanding was he as an old school arse in the seat next to you type instructor but if he was sim or ground, well then you're right. That's a horse of another colour.
Some One “Ironically, the new report also reveals that just nine months before the crash Zobayan had received proficiency training in “inadvertent entry into instrument meteorological conditions and unusual attitude recovery” - in other words, the exact things that killed him.” That certificate just lost a lot of it’s luster.
cant understand flyng VFR into IMC requiring IFR for an instrument rated training pilot. Especially that rotary wings gives so much option when you are unsure as you could literally hover if you cant see. If you havent crashed in your present position you are safe there so stay there until there is visibility. Something happened there that we will never know
People just don't understand how insidious spacial disorientation is. Once you lose visual reference, if you don't get on the gauges immediately, you have just a few minutes to live. Your senses will play tricks on you that will kill you, no matter how good a pilot you are.
Ive watched pilots do blind flying and think they are turning right when they are banking left. Up is down and left turns into right. really wild disorientation RIP to all victims
The pilot became disoriented in the zero visibility flight conditions. He was trying to climb above the clouds. Although the helicopter had flight instruments and he was instrument-rated, it is nearly impossible to fly a helicopter by reference to only instruments at slow airspeeds--in this case he was doing a steep climb with high vertical speed and low airspeed. His disorientation caused him to lose control, which resulted in that 4000+ feet per minute unrecoverable descent into the ground. Contrary to many reports, he did not "fly into a mountain".
Great job Bob! Best recreation I've seen yet. Watching out the windscreen, I could see the margin between the ground and the cloud base narrow towards the end of the flight, even as more mountains loomed in the near distance. Definitely stressful! What I can't fathom is why the pilot flew at the speed that he did before he went up into the clouds. I watched the attitude indicator, and it took almost no time after entry into IMC for the indicator to start that increasing tilt to the left.
You need not wait until the final NTSB report. I’ve done the research and can tell you most likely exactly what happened. IMHO, although ultimately the pilot was at fault, the company he worked for set him up for failure, and thus has some complicity. Before I explain what happened, let me give you some background including of myself. I am a former B-52 pilot and certified instrument flight instructor. Unlike most civilian CFIIs, I loved taking my students up in real weather when the opportunity arose, and they very much appreciated it because the real thing is a lot different than simulators and being under the hood for training. You have to trust those instruments with your life, even when they are telling you that you’re flying straight and level, but it feels like “up” is somewhere to the left and slightly below your left knee (I’m not kidding). It’s called “spatial disorientation” and the onset happens quickly. (If you choose to go with what your body feels is right rather than what your instruments are telling you is right, before you know it, you’ll be upside down in a nose dive toward the ground.) Call me weird, but I always liked amusement park thrill rides, so I looked forward to flying on such days with all the weird accompanying sensations. I was very comfortable flying both VFR and IFR and sometimes would file an inflight IFR flight plan when VFR weather turned against me, something else my VFR students appreciated learning how to do in an emergency if they ever had to. Now the background with Ara Zobayan, Kobe’s pilot, was that although he was IFR rated, he probably rarely flew IFR and especially IFR in IMC conditions. His chopper had IFR instruments, but they weren’t certified for IFR flight. That means he could use them to fly IFR, but he wouldn’t have been legal doing that. The helicopter company he worked for was not cleared for IFR operations, and the vast majority of the time the weather in that part of southern California was VMC and thus an IFR rating wasn’t really necessary from a commercial point of view. Also, VFR flights are fast from point A to B. With an IFR flight, you might have to hold or divert, and it could take substantially longer to get to your destination, something a customer like Kobe wouldn’t have liked. With that background, here’s what happened. The weather wasn’t great; it was barely VFR, thus Zobayan’s request for Special VFR. Special VFR is sort of something between VFR and IFR, where you’re still clear of clouds, but close enough to them for ATC to want to know what you’re up to so as to make sure their IFR aircraft don’t pop out of a cloud and crash into you. So Zobayan was flying closely below the clouds, but the terrain kept rising on him. Being in a helicopter, he could have just stopped and landed almost anywhere, but when you just land anywhere, that’s a potential lawsuit waiting to happen if the owner of the property doesn’t like helicopters landing on his turf without permission. There’s also the pressure of providing the advertised service to a high-profile client, that is getting them to their intended destination on time as promised. And last there is the pressure to avoid IFR flight because that’s got questions from the FAA and helicopter company written all over it (after you land), including the real possibility of losing your pilot’s license and/or being fired from your job. (Remember his helicopter company was not certified for IFR flights.) So Zobayan had a lot of pressure on him to maintain SFVR, almost no matter what. And if he’s been used to successful flights in SVFR, he probably thought at any second the weather would get better and he’d be back to comfortable flying-but it didn’t get better this time. To avoid the clouds, he had to fly so low to the ground that SOCAL couldn’t see him on radar, and it appears they couldn’t hear him even if he could hear them, so there was no flight following to help him steer clear of not only other aircraft, but bad weather and even mountains. He probably felt all alone. So, he sees the terrain rising on him and instinctively pulls up to avoid it and guess what, now he’s in the clouds-which literally is like being in another world compared to VFR flight. Feeling very uncomfortable flying in real IMC conditions, rather than doing the safest thing (obviously in 20-20 hindsight) and just keep climbing (of course using his instruments), he probably desperately started looking outside for the ground again, not paying attention to what his instruments were telling him, especially his ADI. Entering into the clouds in a climbing left bank, immediately spatial-D set in and probably a descending left turn was what normal level flight felt like to his body so he stayed with the feeling, not moving the stick much, as he was looking outside. Unfortunately, most likely be broke through the clouds with just a second to realize that he was looking straight at the ground and about to crash when his body was telling him he should be seeing a level horizon-probably not enough time to even process his visual sense so as to be shocked at what he saw. He was already dead. Most likely his passengers never saw what hit them, but if so, maybe literally at the last second; probably not enough time to even get scared. In 20-20 hindsight, as soon as he realized he was unable to make contact with SOCAL, he should have made a 180, got back with the previous ATC and figured out a safe place to land. He would have had to explain to his passengers that the weather was worse than he thought and it was unsafe to fly toward their destination any further. (Some customers would have been okay with that, but others would have complained, saying they should have been told the weather was bad so they could have driven.) But his company did him (and obviously their customers too) a disservice by allowing SVFR flights, but not having a viable company policy for what to do if the weather reports are wrong and the weather is worse than planned such that the pilot accidentally flies into the clouds. The policy should have been Safety First, and therefore if a pilot accidentally flies into the clouds, to just keep climbing until VFR again, notify ATC of the emergency, try to land in VFR as soon as possible, or have ATC help you land IFR somewhere as soon as practical, and the company will take any heat from ATC if there is any, and the pilot will not be blamed in any way. It appears that second-choice safe option was entirely discouraged by the company. The company should have had at least one IFR rated helicopter for SVFR flights just in case the weather was worse than reported and a pilot found himself accidentally in it. If that required the company be IFR rated, then so be it, or don’t allow your pilots to fly SVFR. SVFR can quickly turn to IFR unintentionally. Or they could have had a very simple safety-related policy: if the cops ain’t flyin’, we ain’t flyin’.
Kobe bryant's pilot told ATC his intention to climb to 4000 feet through the cloud to get clear air (NTSB reported), so the pilot knew he was going to encounter IFR conditions during seconds , so getting into the cloud was not something that caught him by surprise (as you are hinting:" instinctively pulls up") because that was his initial intention when he started the climbing knowing visibility was going to be reduced a lot. Other thing is, once in the cloud , something else (NTSB will find out) happened that interrupted the climbing and spatial disorientation unfolded next. The altimeter says he was indeed climbing from 1240 feet to 2200 feet during 45 seconds before reaching the point (2200 feet) from which he started an increasing descent .
@@jositosWay I didn't hear that in the radio chatter, so I'm not sure how he did that if he did that. (Maybe I read some faulty info.) I read that his chopper was not IFR certified, so if you are correct, he would be telling ATC in effect that he intentionally was going to break the law. and his company's flight policy. Now if he told them that in the context of declaring an emergency, that's different, but from what I've read and hearing the radio transmissions, he never declared an emergency. Maybe he told ATC on the ground before the flight something like if he found a hole in the cloud cover, he would fly through it to 4000 feet, which you can do VFR if the hole is big enough. Can you point to the point in the radio chatter where he makes that request to ascend to 4000 feet?
@@productrecall5183 Me too. At best, I think if someone was looking outside, their initial thought as they broke through the clouds was something like, "why are we so close ... (to the ground)?" , but never get to "to the ground" in their question before they're dead.
@@Mark16v15 Just when the pilot told ATC SoCal about his intention to climb through the cloud,the communication became unidirectional(perhaps for being at low altitude) that's why there is no record in the video. I think the pilot made a choice (imo bad choice) to climb to avoid dangerous hilly terrain and ask for flight following , stating his intention to keep climbing to 4000 feet. Please see this article over time line crash (source NTSB): www.tribtown.com/2020/02/07/us-kobe-bryant-helicopter-crash-timeline/ Start Quote "9:45 a.m. - The pilot contacts SoCal, reports he is climbing above cloud layers and requests flight following services. A new controller asks the pilot to identify his flight and state his intentions. The pilot says he is climbing to 4,000 feet (1,219 meters) and is not heard from again. Radar shows the helicopter climbing to 2,300 feet (701 meters) and beginning a left turn. Eight seconds later it begins descending. The last data received from the craft was at 1,200 feet (366 meters) about 400 feet (122 meters) from the crash site. A witness says the helicopter emerged from mist and was visible for 1 to 2 seconds before hitting the hillside. It is traveling at more than 180 mph (290 kph)." End Quote
This accident appears to be a clear cut case of spatial disorientation leading to a graveyard spiral. You have to trust your instruments in this state, which is very difficult to do for even the most experienced pilots. Flying VFR in these conditions is really rolling the dice. Why was he given a special VFR to fly in these conditions should be scrutinized as well. Prayers to the victims and their families.
I have listened to a lot of experienced pilots concerning this flight. Everything about this flight was normal until after he picked up the 101. The cloud base was 1,100ft and the top was 2,400ft that morning, (marine layer) as he flew into the hills over Calabasas, he felt the pinch of the ground coming up towards the cloud base while trying to maintain a safe AGL.(Above Ground Level) This was his first BIG mistake to choose to fly up into the clouds (as VFR he was NOT authorized to do) instead of turning around and going back to Van Nuys to land. (Or at least somewhere) When he started to climb up to 2,300ft (almost made it, only 100ft to the top of the clouds) he looked up from his instruments (Second BIG mistake) to out the wind screen and lost orientation. This is why he suddenly turned to the left, ( maybe SCUD maneuver to do a 180 and get back away from the hills) descended picking up airspeed and rolled as he hit the hillside. (Either way his descent and roll picking up airspeed are a clear indicator of lost orientation) He was a very experienced IFR pilot and had within the year completed training for this exact situation. (Flying VFR into IMC thus transition from VFR to IFR) A very sad situation that could have been avoided and another statistic of VFR into IMC killing spree. Some aircraft pilots get boxed in with VFR to IMC, This pilot had a choice to let go of his "got to get there" mentality and turn around instead of going into the clouds. (Again...which he was NOT authorized to do.)
No one knows what he did as yet yet so stop with the assumptions unless you were in the helicopter that's the only way you can know for sure what happened that caused it to elevate so high up in the sky and then come right back down in such speed. I do agree with you that he could have turned around and head back but again we didn't know how much gas he had in there neither do we know if he could have turned around.
Aside from weather distractions, we do have one additional fact. When SoCal asked him to "ident", the pilot did so, and Socal said "You're following a 1200 code". The pilot should have been using a pre-assigned code (from Burbank) of 0235. Somehow, the pilot at some point had reset his transponder to 1200. So... now we have the distractions of the weather, which you clearly outlined, AND another distraction (requiring "head-inside-cockpit") of having to re-program the transponder to 0235.
Exactly. Same thing I've been saying. That major mistake was climbing when he got boxed in. Should have turned around or even an emergency landing would have been better than this. A simple turn around would have been the right choice. Dam shame
Great video, Bob! Obviously the trouble really began when Kobe's pilot got into those little hills right where Las Virgenes intersects with the 101. He'd been "threading the needle" all along, but it was right there that there must have been some localized very bad weather. At 130 knots, he ran right into it. And that's the thing about weather: It's never "smooth" and consistent like the flight simulators often display it. In reality there are pockets of *really bad* stuff, and areas of "better" stuff. You thread your way along, hoping it doesn't really go to shit. Hopefully you've got a Plan B and Plan C in your back pocket. Sadly, in Kobe's case it appears that his pilot did *not* have anything in mind if his route along the 101 became blocked. I suspect he was just going to make it up as he went along (improvise), which is a bad Plan A for any helicopter pilot.
Nothing "inadvertent" about this IMC tragedy. This pilot went poking his nose where he shouldn't have been and 9 people died. The FAA must adopt the NTSB's over 30 recommendations, from over 6 prior Sikorsky Helicopter crashes, that include HTAWS, CVR and Data recorders as well as mandatory continual training of IIMC by pilots operating commercial for hire services. These safety recommendations would have certainly saved the lives of these 9 people and would answer the call of the helicopter industry who have been begging for these changes for years.
None of that, HTWAS CVR, etc, would have prevented this accident. Last time I checked the FAA does not implement rules because ignorant idiots like yourself get their undies in a twist.
@@scottfranco1962 Its not my recommendations or my "pantys in a twist" it is the NTSB' recommendations after 6 prior accidents of this helicopter type. Try reading a litttle more. You'll get it eventually, probably not.
@@violent_bebop9687 Sarcasm noted. I doubt you will see any push bacl from Island Helicopters or any other operator. These are safety changes that the industry has been asking for prior to this accident going back several decades.
@@JayStClair-mh5wv The NTSB recommends things that are not the cause of the accident (and they say so). You should leave this to real pilots. You using a simulator does not qualify.
Seems the pilot took a chance and ran out of luck...been there, done that. Flying is unforgiving... There are bold pilots and old pilots but, there are no bold old pilots. You must learn your safe limits and then behave yourself.
What you say reminds me of a picture of an early 1900 plane suspended in the only tree in the middle of a field. The caption below... Aviation is inherently unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.
As soon as I read that this guy both learned how to fly at Van Nuys airport then years latter was an instructor at the same place it was clear to me. He was familliar with the area...too familliar. He thought he knew it so well that he could rely on his ... sense of where he was instead of his eyes or instruments.
I think the pilot developed spatial disorientation in the fog and obviously lost sight of the horizon- WHILE climbing and banking in a turn. In a fixed-wing aircraft would be considered an aerodynamic stall, but helicopters don't Glide very well. Not utilizing the instruments and guessing you know, which way is down is not the way too fly any type aircraft. He literally fell out of the sky at about 184 mph. The last 12 seconds those passengers felt that drop in their stomach and knew something was not right. I'm really upset at the pilot's decisions and actions obviously negligence which took his passengers lives. SAFETY IS NO (KNOW) ACCIDENT!
@@el34glo59 my grandfather and three of my uncles were pilots, with my grandfather and one of my uncle's being commercial pilots. They both 'Captained' flying big aircraft like the Lockheed 1011 & Boeing 747. So I'd say it's in my blood... and I was kind of "taught" by several of them. Always loved flying but never got my license. Then once I met my 'true love' she wouldn't even let me ride a motorcycle ever again, something that left the ground was never going to be approved.
@@el34glo59 exactly the physical sensation would have been free fall, but it was powered. That's why they hit the ground at about 185 miles an hour! The flight's last 12 seconds was absolutely terrifying for EVERYBODY except for the phucking pilot!
What I've gathered is that he flew in to this thick cloud fog that rolled in (first mistake) that can be seen towards the end of the video and he became completely disoriented with where he was. It appears he climbed so that he could break out of the fog and gain flight following (as he was too low) but during this climb he became disoriented and was not confident in flying the helicopter with instrument only. It appears he panicked and turned the helicopter and may have been confused with what the instruments were saying and what orientation he was and started going in a deep nose dive (perhaps he thought he was going back up but was disorientated and actually obviously going down)? Tragic event and RIP to all
Nice vid Bob. Just a couple comments if I may. When power is added for the climb, in your sim you keep the aircraft in balanced flight. However, in real world, power adds torque which yaws the aircraft right. The proper response is left peddle. What if the pilot was correcting his heading via the cyclic and not scanning his turn needle ball? At the time of the climb, his vfr route, the 101 starts to veer left. In IIMC conditions, the procedure is a straight climbout. However, if you view the ADS-B hits on radar, you'll see that the aircraft initially started straight then it looks like a turn to the left to maintain his route on the 101. Without any visual reference, the only way he could continue on the 101 is to use his GPS. Looking at either his iPad or center console GPS causes his head to look down and over. It also takes your eyes off your primary flight instruments. It's a proven fact that body movement will follow head movement hence a more severe left turn. If this aircraft was in a right yaw condition, adding left cyclic will accelerate the angle of bank. A climbing turn with your head looking down and left will cause spatial disorientation as well as possibly vertigo. Once the aircraft reaches 70 degrees angle of bank, it's pretty much over as the nose falls below the horizon. At 1300'agl, with spatial disorientation and possible feelings of vertigo, the aircraft pointing down, airspeed drastically climbing, there is no chance for recovery.
The left bank slowly increases in the climb and we don't see any attempt to level or even get it back to a rate 1 turn. My brain is screaming "Level the wings" while I watch this. He had to be looking at something else. I've had a few IIMCs in FW, immediately got on the artificial horizon and stayed there until back into VFR. This video shows you exactly what happens when you're not watching the artificial horizon. It reminds me of the Kennedy accident which happened in legal VFR at night. It would be interesting to sit through this in a full motion simulator with the horizon covered to see what the somatogravic sensations would be.
They did not ascend into IMC as your video shows. They flew into IMC and then ascended to try and get out of it. The fog was hugging the ground over the 101 that day, somewhat uncharacteristically. You couldn't fly beneath it at all.
The attitude indicator seemed really clear to me. Ignoring spatial disorientation, the attitude indicator showed the entire problem. So did the altitude indicator and the speed indicator. None of the flying during the last minutes makes any sense even in zero visibility conditions. Level the vehicle, slow the speed, stabilize the altimeter and call to air traffic control for help. Either fly above the clouds or get vectoring to a location where there are no mountains and then come back down.
Recce Rat Watching this reconstruction I found myself constantly wanting to see the flight instruments. I can not imagine why the panel featured so little here, it as though people think it illegal to use flight instruments when flying VFR. The transition to sole ref. to instruments should have presented no problem.
Reginald Graves hi, I think the OP said the instruments weren’t synced on this simulation. You’re correct tho, in that sketchy weather even VFR you would be paying close attention to them. I know the pilot was instrument rated, but as we all know flying actual IMC takes practice, especially when solo, then add the pressure of not fitted IFR airframe, company policy and client pressure (even subconsciously of not wanting to fail or abort the flight) sadly ends with SD. Easy to look back and see, but from experience, it’s easier than most would think to get into this situation.
@@reccerat4446 I drive with a safety first mindset. I imagine that I would fly with the same mindset. Maybe we need more safety first thinking in aviation. When it's just go or abort, there is little room for safety thinking. The constant fear of "abort" fuels danger.
The SoCal controller could apparently hear the pilot even though it isn’t picked up on audio. The LA times reported that his last communication was that he was going to climb to get above the clouds. He did climb to 2300 feet, but then appears to have become disoriented.
@@TravelMangoMedia I don't have a Helicopter rating, but that's unlikely. More towards spatial disorientation, compounded with multiple distractions (weather, squawk code, actual location, get-there-itis).
@@humanfactorswithpaulgarth9596 yes but from this video it seems like his climbing is what would have brought on the disorientation because as he's going up you see he loses sight of the horizon on his instrument, no?
It's pretty clear that the pilot got disorientated. When entered the clouds. And then made a sever left turn and started going down at speed. Sadly full pilot error. As soon as he saw the low clouds he should have turned around. Maybe people in the cabin were freaking out, and it screwed him up. Anxiety. same thing happened to JFK Jr. Not cautious enough.thanks bob!
The pilot sounds stressed and confused, and also as if he’s trying his hardest to remain calm, I feel like he knew something was wrong, but didn’t want to make the passengers panic.
Wow. This is amazing. Thank You!! I’ve been rigorously playing it out in my head way more than I intended to and this helps me see & understand what they experienced on board... I’m glad to see that they weren’t plummeting towards the visible ground watching death come for them.. That’s what I kept replaying in my head, the thought of those dads holding their daughters saying it’s okay as they plummeted towards the ground. Glad that wasn’t the case. Load off my mind.
I remember driving on the hwy in a thick winter fog. Could not see a thing and quite honestly I couldn't even tell if I was even on the ground (as ridiculous as that may sound). It must be a 1000x worse while flying
Being in IFR is like being in a plane run up on the ground in dense fog.No relative motion.You can see whisps of vapor pass over the wings but otherwise its just your plane in grey nothingness.
If u listen to the pilots dialogue u see he was calm n collected n for the helicopter to just descend so fast it seems like what ever happened happened in a matter of seconds ..Kobe n the crew Mayb didn’t realize they where in danger until the plain started to crash ..so sad rip
I love this - thank you - I hate this, because all the time they were circling as I was watching, I was like' they are still alive' get OUT OF THE WEATHER, go down, land, delay the game, it's JUST A GAME. Thank you from my 'Five-Minute Pilot' experience in a 2-man, this was fabulously exciting - and the last part was horrifying with the white out! Ugh! God bless you for helping us see a potential version. I was also following the road map on google when he went NB 5 and WB 118 to the 101. Any clue why he failed to stay west on the 101? I guess with no black box, we'll never know! God only knows!
I'm an amateur fixed-wing pilot and never flown a chopper but there are some general flying similarities though helis are more unstable by nature. Several comments:1) This pilot was a CFii and I think had just completed an updated training regarding IIMC situations. So this is particularly strange. 2) Why was he ultimately flying so fast once conditions started worsening? 3) That heli transport company was not certified for IFR flight (most chopper companies aren't as they rarely fly IFR/IMC) and he was already at Special VFR which is one step away from IFR/IMC conditions. 4) Normally once you enter IMC from VFR you turn 180 degrees in the direction you just came from. Not sure why he didn't abort the trip at that point. 5) The sudden altitude increase could be two reasons a) He knew the tops were at around 2400 MSL and he was looking to go vfr above the clouds OR b) could he have experienced some health issue? (medical report might discover something). An experienced pilot once switching to instruments will keep his eyes on various key instruments: altimeter, IAS airspeed and most importantly ATTITUDE indicator. If you stay level attitude and climbing you could have reached the tops and broken out back into VFR above the clouds. The fact that his attitude was dramatically banking left could be because he was not trusting the instruments and was looking out left-hand side window for the ground (or for mountain terrain) which then makes you bank in direction of your line of sight until you reach a point of no return and aircraft starts to "slip" in direction of the bank angle with corresponding airspeed & G forces increasing and recovery becomes impossible. And I keep thinking that one of the greatest assets helis have is the ability to STOP in mid-air and hover. He never even stopped for a moment once things got bad. This was going fairly well considering the weather.... until it didn't. Wow! RIP
Yes all helicopters can hover, but it requires: More concentration to hover than to fly, because helicopters are unstable in the hover in pitch and roll. Forward airspeed provides stability and flying a helicopter with forward airspeed is comparable with flying a fixed wing plane, while hovering is comparable with standing on top of a large inflatable ball. More power to hover than to fly with forward airspeed. This is because in the hover, there is more induced drag than in forward flight. In order to hover, available power must be larger than required power. Available engine power reduces with increasing altitude due to the decreasing air density, and this results in helicopters having a hover ceiling, where power available is equal to power required. Ground effect reduces required power, resulting in two hover ceilings, In Ground Effect and Outside Ground Effect. But even below the OGE hover ceiling, it is simply safer for a helicopter to pick up forward airspeed shortly after takeoff: As stated, flying at speed leaves more fuel on board for the required trip duration. While hovering OGE, altitude must be kept using the altimeter, while unstable pitch and roll must be corrected. The concentration required during looking at the instruments reduces situational awareness. Keeping the helicopter level cannot be done using only the instruments since the peripheral vision is not involved. Where the wind takes the helicopter cannot be viewed from the instruments, and onflying fixed wing aircraft are much harder to focus on. If altitude is not maintained in OGE hover, there is the possibility that the helicopter enters vortex ring state, a dangerous situation where it sinks into its own rotor wake. Vortex ring state does not exist when flying forwards. From avaition.stackexchange.com
It appears that reading from the preliminary NTSB report that he wanted to "pop up" and out of the marine layer as the tops were at 2400. He knew the terrain was closing in and felt that executing the escape maneuver was his best option, unfortunately he apparently lost SITNESS, got disoriented and ended up in an over bank which in a helo is a VERY deadly thing to do...he slid "over the side" and had no room to recover. Sounds like he was a competent and CURRENTLY IFR trained pilot who just got into a bad situation and didn't get "luckY' enough to get out of it this time. RIP...
My question is why bank left? There is no terrain to the right. He knew at 2400 he'd clear the clouds and be home free. Why not continue your ascent up above 2400' into VFR and get everyone home safely. The left bank and descent still make zero sense to me. When someone comes up with "why" he did this we'll all have some answers.
@@donsremodeling an eye witness mountian biking within 100s of feet Stated he could see the belly of the helicopter As it was descending with the banking left turn for impact.. Still very possible there was some type of loss of control to explain the descent
I have aviation experience with both planes and helicopters. Helicopters are very complex. Unlike airplanes once airborne you have to stay on top of the controls. I could teach anyone to keep an airplane in the air once it's in flight. A helicopter is a different story. Besides the gauges...you have your main stick which makes the helicopter go forward, back, left, and right. The tail rotor peddles to spin left and right. Your collective and throttle is to your left. The collective is what puts the appropriate pitch in the blades that makes the craft go up and down. You change the pitch by lifting this handle up and down. You do this while simultaneously twisting it for the appropriate throttle. So...both hands and feet are always working together to keep the helicopter flying. In all honesty helicopters are safer than airplanes in my opinion. If the engine quits in an airplane you need to find a long open clearing fast. Whereas a helicopter you can land in a relatively small area. Auto rotation allows the pilot to over speed the main blades so that they can flair it at the appropriate time allowing you to set the helicopter down relatively gently. However the one similarity in all aircraft is the gauges. You have to be proficient reading your instruments. It's very easy for any pilot to have spatial disorientation happen to them. This is why you should always trust those gauges. An experienced pilot would and should have avoided this accident. The lack of visibility shouldn't of mattered here. It's a real shame this happened.
The controls aren't what makes helicopters more complicated, it's the fact they are statically stable but dynamically unstable. A small change in one input throws everything else out of whack in ways that aren't easy to correct for without experience.
Do you know da way The NTSB recommended (multiple times I believe) the FAA require all these helicopters get retrofitted with it and black boxes. But the FAA chose not to. Like with the 737 MAX 8 they put cost concerns of aircraft mfgs /operators ahead of safety. But I don’t think TAWS would have saved this trip as the helicopter fell out of the sky over 1200 feet onto a hill. It didn’t fly into a hill as was originally reported.
The NTSB preliminary report did list a radio altimeter in the equipment. However, when the attitude is almost completely on the side no terrain warning system is going to work because the terrain is no longer under the craft.
The addition of more safety equipment would not have prevented this accident. If the pilot had utilized the existing instruments installed on the aircraft this would not have occurred.
Nicely done. #SMH As an R--22/R-44 PIC-qualified pilot I've been in my own fair share of complex airspace and, yes, with SVFR. It ain't fun. But I had several outs and never had get-there-itis. Perhaps that's why I can type this.
I had my eyes closed pretending i was in the helicopter n before i knew it , it crashed made me realize how quick life can end especially considering the fact kobe rode in helicopters for over 20 yrs
francine corry the sad part is that he didn’t get clearance. I truly believe he was disoriented and couldn’t see where he was going. I just don’t understand why they started climbing and then took a left turn.
@@dugansmith4144 He got boxed in. Running out of airspace as the clouds were getting lower. He needed to keep his eye on the road. And he had to keep going lower. Eventually he pulled up to get over the clouds. Probably glanced away from his instruments for a veey short time while, and lost his bearings. It's unfortunate but it happens fast
I'm from Argentina, I don't even like basketball so much, but I'm still disturbed by this tragedy, maybe because how big Kobe was, maybe because I have a daughter, maybe because it could have been avoided.
Mena Mena exactly, I’m absolutely convinced the pilot should have said no or stopped the flight. I also have a feeling they have done it many times before in same conditions but it’s like Russian Roulette. I don’t think using this as a primary mode of transportation was a very smart thing to do, the used helicopter everywhere they went. Just my thoughts.
@@Love_maui_2017 The whole team flew the same path the day before with no issues at all. If it's your time, it's your time. We will be in it sooner or later.
ShutDFckOff he should have said no the day before and the time before - doesn’t make it right but I do agree accidents happen and if it’s your time - it’s your time. This is what happens when you have so much money you rely on helicopters to go to a basketball game - just move to Los Angeles geez
J STYLES maybe so, but I just hate when senseless things like this happen. No matter who it is. To all of the pilots here posting. If it’s a no go, then don’t Go. All of the other agencies and the LA PD didn’t go. If you want to hot dog it and be Maverick, make sure you are flying by yourself. Don’t risk other lives. You can’t 100 percent predict weather. The weather report is just a prediction, you never know EXACTLY what you will run into when your are up there. Remember SAFETY FIRST!!!
@@Timetaker1000 - it is not an established fact that every other VFR helicopter in the L.A. basin was "grounded" that morning. That is your assumption and it may very well not be true. The weather at Kobe's departure point, as well as interim airports along the way, was actually pretty good. - for a helicopter. Kobe's pilot had every reason to believe they would make it to Camarillo. Let us remember that a P.D. helicopter *did* respond to the accident scene - we saw pictures of it hovering over the crash site not long after it happened.
Well made video. Both for fixed Wing or rotor. I wish I had had this type of presentation when I was instructing my Cadets. A sad event, could have been avoided. Keep up the good work Bob !
Thanks, Bob, for putting this one together. Gives us pilots a little right-seat perspective. White-Out @23:40. EYE’S GLUED to the “4”s at that point. Alt./ASI/& AH fluctuated dramatically, but not the wet-compass.
With helicopters recording only a 14% rate of survival when entering IIMC shouldn't VFR Helis get landing priority when weather is closing in. This Copter was left waiting 20 minutes as weather closed. ATC should recognise their role in this disaster.
Weather at Burbank was not "closing in" while N72EX was holding outside Class C airspace. It's not up to ATC to make decisions for aircraft, it's up to pilots to state intentions. N72EX did not request to land, he asked to enter Class C airspace under special VFR rules in order to transit the airspace. This was allowed after IFR traffic was clear. ATC has no responsibility for the accident.
That 20 minute delay, the heli full passenger capacity, a day before made same trip in 30 minutes, is there a reason to think the gas was limited?, the fast altitude the pilot took and then a descend makes me think that it was a natural reaction when the pilot began loosing engine power!
Priority is given to aircraft that are flying true IFR. Like the commercial aircraft the rest of us fly in. ATC did nothing wrong, at the end of the day the pilot has to make the call as to whether or not it is safe to fly and this particular pilot made a poor choice.
Death by rules? Seems to me we got a IFR pilot flying into IFR conditions trying to remain in VFR airspace because he is not certified to fly passengers in IFR airspace. Seems he lost situational awareness trying to be a good VRF guy in an IFR situation.
Is it true, that due to spacial orientation, and being unable to see anything outside, that the passengers may have no idea they were crashing? Is it true that they may have not even known what was happening? Sorry to ask this, but for some reason this is haunting me.
I think it depends on whether the aircraft stalled or not. If so, I would think the horror of a dead fall/spin (or the physical effects of unusual motions) would be felt. But if the altitude decrease and speed were controlled (even, albeit in an erratic manner) they may not have noticed until right before impact. If you search for "Brazilian wedding helicopter crash" here on youtube, you will experience the grim horror of more than likely, what Kobe and company also experienced. Be warned, it's tough to watch. Honestly though, given the extreme variation in attitude and descent rate (which you can clearly observe in this simulation), I'm pretty sure it stalled and they were all very aware of what was happening :(
Excellent simulation...scary as hell...hard to believe a pilot with his qualifications and experience would succumb so quickly to spacial disorientation...
This is why I always freak out when flying private. Public Airlines there’s more than just a pilot making a decision to get there. Very little chance of get there idess...
Game time was at 12pm and the crash happened at 9:45am. They had more than 2 hours to get there. He did not have to hurry, but I guess the combination of the circle patterns in Glendale and maintaining high airspeed into elevated terrain and poor visibility contributed to poor judgement. Reduced airspeed, until hovering, and then a 180-degree reverse back to Van Nuys Airport would have been a better option. From there, it's a 40 minute drive to Camarillo :/
Van Nuys controller: “... ceiling 1100 overcast” (the person doing the video only dropped clouds to 1300 feet). If the clouds are 1100 feet at Van Nuys in the flatland, that is a good warning not to fly over a mountain pass. The NTSB reports elevation of the helicopter crash site as 1085 feet. Edit: I read elsewhere that the clouds were at 1900 feet. Apparently Van Nuys airport (800 feet above sea level) gave the distance the clouds were from the ground, not their distance above sea level. Weird that they report the distance above the ground and the pilot reports back his altitude (1400 and 1500 feet) as feet above sea level.
How in the hell did an instrument rated pilot NOT see his bank angle on the artificial horizon nor his vertical speed indicator. I just can’t fathom how such a thing can go unnoticed. Even the audio of the helicopter crashing..doesn’t sound like it was thrashing around out of control. I seriously feel that he may have suffered a medical issue. Sadly, we’ll probably never know.
Great Simulation! Thanks! There are a lot of uninformed opinions here. This was a case of spacial disorientation. VFR to IMC. The pilot was instrument rated, but the helicopter service he worked for only flew in conditions where you can see everything with your eyes (VFR). He probably had not flown using only his instruments (IFR) in a very long time. Flying a helicopter on instruments is probably the hardest thing to do in aviation. It plays tricks on your mind and body. Weather can worsen quickly. It has killed the very best pilots. Stop judging.
@bluegoose03 The pilot was instrument rated, but he failed to control the aircraft solely by reference to the instruments. All he had to do was climb to on-top (another few hundred feet would have done it), squawk 7700, confess to inadvertent IMC, then fly east to hopefully find a break in the overcast. Instead he likely lost it due to inability to fly by instruments.
bluegoose03 yes! The helicopter company was a VFR ONLY service even though pilot and and helicopter were instrument capable. Lol, probably an insurance matter.
@@bearbuster157 I would argue that the pilot was instrument capable. He was apparently instrument rated but his capabilities did not include the instinct of transitioning to instruments and flying away from the ground.
Ok folks...this is my last comment on this video. Because of it I think I know what happened. Things were uneventful until the pilot got to Burbank. When he got to Burbank Airport there was a lot of traffic including an aircraft that was circling the airport waiting to land. Most of the traffic were planes attempting to land more likely because the weather became too crappy. As a result Kobe's pilot was instructed to hold so he flew to Glendale out of the airport traffic space and engaged in a 12 minute holding pattern. The planes that were taking off from Burbank were climbing to 4000 feet presumably above the clouds. The air traffic controller then asked a plane waiting to take off to hold to give Kobe's pilot the go ahead. He then flew towards Van Nuys Airport and was given instructions to contact them. He flew up the 5 to connect to the 118 freeway. When he got to Van Nuys he interrupted a communication between the control tower and a plane that was taking off which was instructed to climb to 4000 feet. Once Kobe's pilot left the Van Nuys control space he was instructed to contact So Cal air traffic control. Kobe's pilot never contacted So Cal control because at that point he was following the 101 at a high speed at a low altitude (1200 feet.) Kobe's pilot was cheating the system by flying low because he wanted to make up for lost time. By flying low he avoids the cloud cover and radar was unable to pick him up and give him flight instructions. At this point in time I think ego or the willing to please Kobe fell into place. He wanted to get his famous client to his point of destination on time. Unfortunately when he got to Calabasas the pilot ran into a fog bank. That part of southern California is called the Gold Coast. They include cities like Thousand Oaks, Westlake, Malibu, Agoura Hills, Camarillo, etc. They are at least 10 miles away from the coast. In Orange County it's called the Orange Coast which includes cities such as Huntington Beach, Newport Beach, etc. When the pilot reached the Gold Coast the fog became thicker and he couldn't see. He tried to get out of the fog by ascending but he couldn't. The chopper didn't have enough power to climb sufficiently and he lost control, veered to the left and fell out of the sky the result being catastrophic! Poor judgement and the weather caused this crash and the lives of 9 souls. May they rest in peace! I rest my case.
riveratpful --had nothing to do with not having enough ppwer---The pilot became disoriented in the zero visibility flight conditions. He was trying to climb above the clouds. Although the helicopter had flight instruments and he was instrument-rated, it is nearly impossible to fly a helicopter by reference to only instruments at slow airspeeds--in this case he was doing a steep climb with high vertical speed and low airspeed. His disorientation caused him to lose control, which resulted in that 4000+ feet per minute unrecoverable descent into the ground. Contrary to many reports, he did not "fly into a mountain".
this was possible the most reliable helicopter in world. Same manufacters as black hawk helicopters. I promise you it was cable of climbing with all crew on board. NTSB ruled out malfunction.
Don't pay attention to the asshole comments, That was a excellent job you did and more realistic and factual that anything I have seen on youtube. This pilot used zero good judgment and bordered on criminal . You can hear ATC kinda saying "are you kidding like what hell are you doing flying in this soup what are you crazy?'
Look at that artificial horizon at 24:16+ !! Good job emphasizing that with the cursor as you made this video. Great work putting this together.
4 года назад+6
I’m not an aviation expert by any means, matter of fact only time I flew something was in GTA when I was completing missions but even I know that flying in the fog is a big no no
I called it from the beginning spatial disorientation, once he started scud running up the 118 or whatever it is ceiling lowered, terrain got higher, i think he panicked, went into the climb, and a hundred feet from breaking out into VFR at 2400ft they only made it a 2300, went into that hard left bank and dive that I don't think he ever even knew he was in until he broke out 800ft from rhe ground and couldn't recover, eyewitness said the helicopter rolled almost inverted right before hitting, hard to even imagine the fear in those last few seconds, RIP all involved.
On September 9, 1984 we lost our sister and brother-in-law in a similar situation. Fast changing weather conditions, pilot error. Then John Kennedy Jr. exactly the same. Including the grief left behind, and now Kobe. My heart doesn’t heal
Why? So we could hear Ara talking to himself? "This looks bad but I gotta get Kobe there" The ATC discussions are already a matter of record. Maybe you read the press crap about that NTSB board member talking about this stuff??? She is an idiot.
@@BobDenny I recall her talking abt TAWS which also makes no sense to me given how ridiculous it would be for helicopters. She should have limited her comments to the known facts that day. OTOH, she does do significant homework before the hearings.
The speedometer is the gauge to the left of the two-color gauge that has no units or circling arrow. The speedometer is in knots which are close to, but more than miles per hour. When the person says “look at the speed!” (21:53) it shows about 141 knots, which translates to 162.26 mph. The altimeter is the gauge to the right of the two-color gauge that has no units or circling arrow. The smaller hand appears to point to “1000’s of feet above sea level” and the larger “100s of feet above sea level” (combine the two hands like a clock : the smaller hand should only be considered as 0, 1000, 2000, etc.)
Tom Gulbranson Your “education” said the small hand only indicates “exact number altitudes when pointing directly at a number”. That is like saying the hour hand on a watch only represents the hour when it is pointing directly at a number.
Tom Gulbranson You will have to explain “parts of hundreds”. The small hand has to indicate 2,000 feet to be added to the big hand when it is between 2 and 3, even if it also indicates something else. How else would a pilot know they are at 2200 feet?
I used to live just off Las Virgenes and have driven the 101 to Camarillo about a thousand times - at first I assumed he was confused by Las Virgenes veering south and thought it was the 101 so he went that way for a few seconds then decided to U-turn. But now I think what happened is when he came over the little hill between West Hills and Las Virgenees, he ran into wall of clouds that he couldn't fly under due to the fact that really soon the terrain steeply rises again on its way over a substantial hill between Newbury Park and Camarillo. So his plan was to spiral up a few thousand feet then fly over the clouds and then drop back into Camarillo. Had he spiraled to the West of Las Virgenes instead of the East of it, he would have had nothing but a flat residential area below him and would be alive today. But as everybody seems to be saying, the sudden wall of clouds got him disoriented during the aggressive climbing turn (classic problem) and he pitched it into the hillside. Had he kept oriented, his plan would have worked. I guess there's about a 0.2% chance he turned too abruptly and blacked out due to a medical condition or some kind of toxicology issue, which we will learn about in due course.
I think he stalled the main rotor by flying into a thermal down draft. He was flying fast and hard. The ship rolled left and headed down, textbook rotor stall.. clearly he could see his instruments and could have leveled out. Also, why decend onto the mountain range? He clearly lost control of the craft by stalling the rotor..
This is so upsetting!! The pilot was careless, reckless and arrogant!! Why the fuck didn’t he put the helicopter down??? It’s clear he had no idea wtf he was doing under those conditions!! He needed to followed on the radar the whole time. This is so unreal! I don’t care if the pilot would’ve been alone and got himself killed for those stupid decisions. But he killed 8 others that trusted him with their safety!
Although I don't disagree that he should have put it down in a field or parking lot, I think he would have done just that if he had been flying alone. The external pressure he felt to get Kobe (who he had a blossoming friendship with, as he had flown him several times before) to his destination on time, likely effected his aeronautical decision making quite severely. So I don't think it's quite as black and white as an arrogant pilot overestimating his abilities to fly in weather.
Why are you just blaming the pilot?they texted each other before hand.they knew the weather was shitty.he choose to fly that day.the same way you would get into your car if the weather was shitty.that's how he traveled.easy to toss rocks at a glass house.he didn't drive like you or I do.it was normal for him.it was his lifestyle.the whole pressure thing is just a side show.
The pilot was a certified flight instructor and he instructed other helicopter pilots how to fly in the clouds how can He crash after entering the clouds for 10 seconds when this is what he does for a living
When you plan on flying VFR, it’s easy to forget about an out route or exit in the terrain. Just because he was qualified and an instructor doesn’t mean he had a lot of time in actual foggy conditions. That’s the problem with IFR training is it’s not like you are always in a real world foggy situation. Plus when you do train, you are EXPECTING IFR weather. This situation sounds like he got caught off guard with rising terrain and low elevation. It just takes seconds to look away from the 6 pack (instruments) and you could already be doomed. That dive wasn’t recoverable at that altitude/speed.
Note: VFR Flight Following requires an assigned 4 digit Squawk Code 10:15 - Squawk 0235, remain outside of Charlie Airspace 14:18 - Radar Service is terminated. REMAIN that squawk. 16:18 - "We have 0235" Note: This makes no sense. You would not verbally inform ATC that you have a pre-assigned squawk code. My surmise is that he had inadvertently reset the transponder to 1200 when he heard "Radar service is terminated" earlier. 16:24 - When ATC is asking him if he wants to talk to SoCal (for Flight Following), it's likely because his transponder is showing 1200. If it was 0235, it would be implied that he wanted Flight Following. ' 18:08 - ATC is likely thinking he wants to start a NEW request for Flight Following. 19:29 - 72EX ident. Note: This means that ATC is asking, "Which of the 1200 codes are you?" 19:35 - You're following a 1200 code.... THIS IS A MAJOR PROBLEM! The pilot knows that he needs to have that pre-assigned code of (0235) in the transponder. For whatever reason, he didn't correct it from before. Now he likely corrects it with "head-inside-the-cockpit". Then he looks up.... and doesn't know he's already in zero visibility.
I think I get what your saying. The squawk code was for VFR flight following. The ATC when switching shifts had this flight as an IFR flight because of there being no squawk?
I’ve flown in this airspace. When ATC ask him if he wanted flight following because if he said no then then VNY tower would just tell him to squawk VFR 1200. The 0235 squawk was only needed for him to transition in class C and D airspace. When he was outside of the VNY D he have an option to go on his own without talking to anybody.
@@Jopanaguiton That's true that outside of VNY Class D he had the option to go his own way without talking to anybody, but I'm remembering the audio with VNY tower where she asked him if he wanted Flight Following. She gave him the frequency for SoCal. Why would he then switch to 1200? Burbank Tower gave him the squawk 0235 and said, "Radar service terminated. Remain this squawk. Question: Do you see my point about the possibility that he may have mistakenly flipped to 1200 after Burbank Tower said, "Radar service terminated. Remain this squawk"?? The way VNY Tower was talking, it didn't appear he was showing a code. He also verbally said, "We have 0235" - which doesn't really make sense.
Human Factors with Paul Garth probably exactly what happened he hit squawk VFR when BUR told him radar service is terminated. It’s kind of a muscle memory to hit that button when I hear radar service is terminated.
@@Jopanaguiton I know you know the area - I had to look at a VFR sectional and then overlay the street maps. One additional layer of distraction, just before the "ident" request, was that 72EX started asking VNY if he could turn south from the 118 to the 101. At the exact same time another pilot started talking to VNY and there was an extended chat about SIDs, etc. That lasted about 20 seconds. This means that 72EX is now further west on the 118 than he wanted to be. Looking at a street map, it's obvious why he would have wanted to turn early from the 118 (with VNY on his left side) - terrrain. Q: I can't remember the answer to this -- would VNY allow him to go through their airspace without an assigned squawk code, considering SVFR? VNY kept saying "are you in VFR conditions?" Q: He was cleared at our below 2500 by VNY. While VNY airspace goes up to just below 3000, is it possible that 72EX stopped short because of his clearance restriction? If he had gone up to 3000' it may have been a different outcome. One distraction after another...
Wow. I've read how disorienting flying in the clouds (VFR into IMC) can be, but it was something else entirely to watch it happen in real time here. It's instant, total sensory deprivation. Terrifying. A bit of constructive criticism: some more commentary would have really enriched this video. For instance, towards the end, the narrator says "Lookit the speed". It would have been VERY valuable (and appreciated) to explain specifically why that was important. I would have liked to know. Aviation is a casual interest of mine, I am not remotely an expert.
Even for a layman as I am , the video is very instructive and self-explanatory of what ocurred (I had to google the functioning of attitude-gyro dash instrument). Thanks for your effort to gather all data and displaying it in such ilustrative way. I'm sorry for all the lifes lost; RIP all of them; and sorry for the pilot: I forgive him because he was confronted with highly adverse conditions. Wrong decision getting into the soup: he should have landed anywhere, any place available by sight.Thanks.
I've done it in the full 3D of virtual reality. It is extremely realistic (Google Earth VR). After doing that, I still have a theory that the pilot mistook the nearby last exit (left) as a continuation of the freeway he was following as a result of poor visibility in the fog. So instead of the pass opening up at that exit location he remained in a vulnerable position off to the left. You only have to "loose it" for an instant there and you can crash.
mesillahills I think so, too. He mistook the exit for the continuance of the highway and followed it instead. The ground came up to the fog and he had nowhere to go.
I still dont see what's so hard about just watching ur altimeter and horizon bubble . keep the bubble level and watch altimeter and slowly decend until visibility is good and land that damn thing
if you did what you just stated you would slam right into the same mountain. AH and Altimeters are completely unaffected by terrain. You're also flying a helicopter so your AH is of limited value depending on your airspeed and pitch.
your inner ear plays tricks on you when you have no visibility and can make you think you are going up when youre crashing and make you turn and think you're level
@@barlitosantana9708 That's why you train to ignore those feelings. It's a pretty basic skill every pilot should have. It used to be more emphasized in pilot training, I don't know why it's not anymore.
Pilots, when he ascended into the clouds and got whiteout, why didnt he focus on his instruments especially the level flight device. Yes i know he was cleared for VFR only...But this would have told him if he was banking hard or not...at least get it level and continue climbing no? Is that not common sense? He can see his altitude is climbing, he knows hes in whiteout fog. He obviously can't see out the window. So why not direct attention to level flight device or at least glance every few seconds to make necessary adjustments so you are not turning left or banking left or right? Would that have solved the spacial disorientation?
Do you know what a violent yaw movement is? and how it affects a helicopter, and how, if one is lucky, recover from that movement? Imagine, you are the pilot, the helicopter is losing altitude and the people inside realize they are in trouble. what do you think their response is? Are you able to concentrate on the problem or the noises filling the cabin? You don't have TAWS, and that's probably a good thing, because it would be alarming at all kinds of audio warning in addition to everything else going on. Remember, he left radar at 1,100 feet. The Sun USA reported the aircraft fell 875 feet in 15 seconds in giants headlines. That means the pilot had 15 secs after going below radar at 125 feet, helo was on its way to the ground. Here is another item. The helo weighs 7,006 lbs, before outfitting. The two calculations I have are they fell from 875 feet, in around 7 seconds. The Sun USA actually did not calculate for weight of the helicopter. No way it took 15 secs, try about half that, and so, how fast did it hit the ground? somewhere around 162 MPH.
seems like there was some other contributing event besides the disorientation. The radio silence alone speaks volumes on his behalf. He could've suffered a massive stroke/cardiac event and was incoherent and disoriented. Thanks for the great video. Amazing job!! RIP to all who lost their precious lives in this horrible tragedy. God Bless ♥♥♥
Apparently the audio recording from the SoCal air control didn’t pick up the pilot’s communication even though the air controller could hear him. The LA Times reported his last communication to SoCal was that he was going to climb to get above the clouds.
Radio silence after disorientation was the proper thing to do. It would have been irresponsible for the pilot to engage in the distraction of talking to people who could not help while he had a critical situation going.
Gus, I can tell you've never, ever, had to drive from Newport Beach all the way through LA and on up to Ventura County. This can take up to 90 min in traffic. It's a beast of a drive.
Ok does this simulation make it seem way easier than it is in real life? Looking at the altimeter as the narrator said, if I'm understanding it right, in the last few seconds he seems to be pitched upwards with a left bank, the horizon being on the bottom of the instrument with a tilt. He maintains the left bank but then the horizon starts to come up which means he starts to pitch downwards and go downwards. At that point wouldn't he turn out of the left bank and pull back up to correct that if he's seeing that on the instrument? It doesn't seem like he even attempted to that. Is that hard to do under these circumstances?
It appears visuals became blocked quite instantly. Kinda like a blackout. Must have been extremely frightening for the pilot. Not sure if the passengers felt the same way as they probably had confidence in him. I hope their last moments wasn't spent in extensive pain and agony. I like to believe they weren't.
yeah, can't even imagine all of the pressure on him, plus how the passengers were feeling in back. Also wonder if they were behind schedule for the game, i.e. he put some speed to it.
I realize he was only ~100-feet from reaching clear skies, after climbing into the soup, but it seems he's breaking the special VFR to fly into the clouds. He really couldn't switch to instruments because ATC didn't have a flight plan for him. His outfit was VFR only. Why climb and risk disorientation? I wish he had been more conservative.
Tops were listed as 2400 back at Burbank. Other reports said they were higher where he was. The SVFR clearance only applied back in Van Nuys' airspace. He was no longer under that. Deciding to go IFR without such a clearance is illegal but perhaps he found that a better alternative than the worsening weather conditions. In hindsight, course reversal a lot sooner, even never departing John Wayne was obviously better.
@@Bestever-qt2kp watch this short video from an aviation expert for concise info about the flight and why he couldn't fly using IFR. ruclips.net/video/BCLNJLjitSs/видео.html
Not false, his outfit (meaning his company he flew charters for) only flew VFR. He may have been rated IFR but it doesn't sound like he used those transition skills often, if at all. Plus, he never had an IFR plan. As someone else said, it's illegal to simply go IFR on your own without a flight plan.
Some One the pass is around 4,200 feet. There are some mountains around that are close to 8000. that is why the pilot tried to fly up so high to get above the clouds and get his bearings.
Seems to me a case of an excellent and experienced pilot, suddenly finding himself in a combination of bad flying conditions, and then perhaps he then he gets some spatial disorientation which leads him to put the helicopter into a an unrecoverable attitude.
...to better understand the body's loss of spatial disorientation in dangerous fog or thick clouds, when the likelihood of totally inaccurate and false sensations coming from the fluid in our own confused inner ears' 3D natural gyroscopes increases drastically, just check out a few pilot education videos here on RUclips, or just try sitting next to someone driving down the block and turning the corner , with you sitting there with your head down and eyes closed..and that is while operating only in two dimensions, while a pilot has to work constantly in all three dimensions...plus dealing with precious time itself...
![GEEK TIMË [OFFICIAL AUDIO]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ry-6RvkH880/mqdefault.jpg)
It's clear to me now that the pilot became spatially disoriented. He ignored what the instruments were indicating and trusted instead what his senses were telling him.
Which made no “sense”
@Some One How does one teach IFR? By DOING IFR! VFR too for that matter. Except where it's impossible (single seat plane) or unless this guy was purely a ground instructor, which I don't think was the case, an instructor taught/teachs IFR by doing IFR in the bird with the student pilot first that later the student does it. Somehow, in the clutch he apparently forgot/failed to execute everything he knew. Maybe overconfidence, maybe something medical even.
@Some One If that's the case I agree with you. My possible incorrect understanding was he as an old school arse in the seat next to you type instructor but if he was sim or ground, well then you're right. That's a horse of another colour.
Some One “Ironically, the new report also reveals that just nine months before the crash Zobayan had received proficiency training in “inadvertent entry into instrument meteorological conditions and unusual attitude recovery” - in other words, the exact things that killed him.”
That certificate just lost a lot of it’s luster.
@ Even instructors arent alwys experienced or competent in a serious predicament.
Set it down in a CLEARING and wait it out, call uber,, file paper work . And LIVE
cant understand flyng VFR into IMC requiring IFR for an instrument rated training pilot. Especially that rotary wings gives so much option when you are unsure as you could literally hover if you cant see. If you havent crashed in your present position you are safe there so stay there until there is visibility. Something happened there that we will never know
All the second-guessing in the world ain't gonna undo this outcome.
Clearly the pilot was lost and confused by the fog.... God bless them.
People just don't understand how insidious spacial disorientation is. Once you lose visual reference, if you don't get on the gauges immediately, you have just a few minutes to live. Your senses will play tricks on you that will kill you, no matter how good a pilot you are.
Ive watched pilots do blind flying and think they are turning right when they are banking left. Up is down and left turns into right. really wild disorientation RIP to all victims
The pilot became disoriented in the zero visibility flight conditions. He was trying to climb above the clouds. Although the helicopter had flight instruments and he was instrument-rated, it is nearly impossible to fly a helicopter by reference to only instruments at slow airspeeds--in this case he was doing a steep climb with high vertical speed and low airspeed. His disorientation caused him to lose control, which resulted in that 4000+ feet per minute unrecoverable descent into the ground. Contrary to many reports, he did not "fly into a mountain".
Great job Bob! Best recreation I've seen yet. Watching out the windscreen, I could see the margin between the ground and the cloud base narrow towards the end of the flight, even as more mountains loomed in the near distance. Definitely stressful! What I can't fathom is why the pilot flew at the speed that he did before he went up into the clouds. I watched the attitude indicator, and it took almost no time after entry into IMC for the indicator to start that increasing tilt to the left.
You need not wait until the final NTSB report. I’ve done the research and can tell you most likely exactly what happened.
IMHO, although ultimately the pilot was at fault, the company he worked for set him up for failure, and thus has some complicity. Before I explain what happened, let me give you some background including of myself.
I am a former B-52 pilot and certified instrument flight instructor. Unlike most civilian CFIIs, I loved taking my students up in real weather when the opportunity arose, and they very much appreciated it because the real thing is a lot different than simulators and being under the hood for training. You have to trust those instruments with your life, even when they are telling you that you’re flying straight and level, but it feels like “up” is somewhere to the left and slightly below your left knee (I’m not kidding). It’s called “spatial disorientation” and the onset happens quickly. (If you choose to go with what your body feels is right rather than what your instruments are telling you is right, before you know it, you’ll be upside down in a nose dive toward the ground.) Call me weird, but I always liked amusement park thrill rides, so I looked forward to flying on such days with all the weird accompanying sensations. I was very comfortable flying both VFR and IFR and sometimes would file an inflight IFR flight plan when VFR weather turned against me, something else my VFR students appreciated learning how to do in an emergency if they ever had to.
Now the background with Ara Zobayan, Kobe’s pilot, was that although he was IFR rated, he probably rarely flew IFR and especially IFR in IMC conditions. His chopper had IFR instruments, but they weren’t certified for IFR flight. That means he could use them to fly IFR, but he wouldn’t have been legal doing that. The helicopter company he worked for was not cleared for IFR operations, and the vast majority of the time the weather in that part of southern California was VMC and thus an IFR rating wasn’t really necessary from a commercial point of view. Also, VFR flights are fast from point A to B. With an IFR flight, you might have to hold or divert, and it could take substantially longer to get to your destination, something a customer like Kobe wouldn’t have liked. With that background, here’s what happened.
The weather wasn’t great; it was barely VFR, thus Zobayan’s request for Special VFR. Special VFR is sort of something between VFR and IFR, where you’re still clear of clouds, but close enough to them for ATC to want to know what you’re up to so as to make sure their IFR aircraft don’t pop out of a cloud and crash into you. So Zobayan was flying closely below the clouds, but the terrain kept rising on him. Being in a helicopter, he could have just stopped and landed almost anywhere, but when you just land anywhere, that’s a potential lawsuit waiting to happen if the owner of the property doesn’t like helicopters landing on his turf without permission. There’s also the pressure of providing the advertised service to a high-profile client, that is getting them to their intended destination on time as promised. And last there is the pressure to avoid IFR flight because that’s got questions from the FAA and helicopter company written all over it (after you land), including the real possibility of losing your pilot’s license and/or being fired from your job. (Remember his helicopter company was not certified for IFR flights.) So Zobayan had a lot of pressure on him to maintain SFVR, almost no matter what. And if he’s been used to successful flights in SVFR, he probably thought at any second the weather would get better and he’d be back to comfortable flying-but it didn’t get better this time.
To avoid the clouds, he had to fly so low to the ground that SOCAL couldn’t see him on radar, and it appears they couldn’t hear him even if he could hear them, so there was no flight following to help him steer clear of not only other aircraft, but bad weather and even mountains. He probably felt all alone. So, he sees the terrain rising on him and instinctively pulls up to avoid it and guess what, now he’s in the clouds-which literally is like being in another world compared to VFR flight. Feeling very uncomfortable flying in real IMC conditions, rather than doing the safest thing (obviously in 20-20 hindsight) and just keep climbing (of course using his instruments), he probably desperately started looking outside for the ground again, not paying attention to what his instruments were telling him, especially his ADI. Entering into the clouds in a climbing left bank, immediately spatial-D set in and probably a descending left turn was what normal level flight felt like to his body so he stayed with the feeling, not moving the stick much, as he was looking outside. Unfortunately, most likely be broke through the clouds with just a second to realize that he was looking straight at the ground and about to crash when his body was telling him he should be seeing a level horizon-probably not enough time to even process his visual sense so as to be shocked at what he saw. He was already dead. Most likely his passengers never saw what hit them, but if so, maybe literally at the last second; probably not enough time to even get scared.
In 20-20 hindsight, as soon as he realized he was unable to make contact with SOCAL, he should have made a 180, got back with the previous ATC and figured out a safe place to land. He would have had to explain to his passengers that the weather was worse than he thought and it was unsafe to fly toward their destination any further. (Some customers would have been okay with that, but others would have complained, saying they should have been told the weather was bad so they could have driven.) But his company did him (and obviously their customers too) a disservice by allowing SVFR flights, but not having a viable company policy for what to do if the weather reports are wrong and the weather is worse than planned such that the pilot accidentally flies into the clouds. The policy should have been Safety First, and therefore if a pilot accidentally flies into the clouds, to just keep climbing until VFR again, notify ATC of the emergency, try to land in VFR as soon as possible, or have ATC help you land IFR somewhere as soon as practical, and the company will take any heat from ATC if there is any, and the pilot will not be blamed in any way. It appears that second-choice safe option was entirely discouraged by the company. The company should have had at least one IFR rated helicopter for SVFR flights just in case the weather was worse than reported and a pilot found himself accidentally in it. If that required the company be IFR rated, then so be it, or don’t allow your pilots to fly SVFR. SVFR can quickly turn to IFR unintentionally. Or they could have had a very simple safety-related policy: if the cops ain’t flyin’, we ain’t flyin’.
Kobe bryant's pilot told ATC his intention to climb to 4000 feet through the cloud to get clear air (NTSB reported), so the pilot knew he was going to encounter IFR conditions during seconds , so getting into the cloud was not something that caught him by surprise (as you are hinting:" instinctively pulls up") because that was his initial intention when he started the climbing knowing visibility was going to be reduced a lot. Other thing is, once in the cloud , something else (NTSB will find out) happened that interrupted the climbing and spatial disorientation unfolded next. The altimeter says he was indeed climbing from 1240 feet to 2200 feet during 45 seconds before reaching the point (2200 feet) from which he started an increasing descent .
@@jositosWay I didn't hear that in the radio chatter, so I'm not sure how he did that if he did that. (Maybe I read some faulty info.) I read that his chopper was not IFR certified, so if you are correct, he would be telling ATC in effect that he intentionally was going to break the law. and his company's flight policy. Now if he told them that in the context of declaring an emergency, that's different, but from what I've read and hearing the radio transmissions, he never declared an emergency. Maybe he told ATC on the ground before the flight something like if he found a hole in the cloud cover, he would fly through it to 4000 feet, which you can do VFR if the hole is big enough. Can you point to the point in the radio chatter where he makes that request to ascend to 4000 feet?
I'm hoping your right and passengers had no idea what was happening. I pray they werent scared and didnt know imminent death was coming. 🙏🙏
@@productrecall5183 Me too. At best, I think if someone was looking outside, their initial thought as they broke through the clouds was something like, "why are we so close ... (to the ground)?" , but never get to "to the ground" in their question before they're dead.
@@Mark16v15 Just when the pilot told ATC SoCal about his intention to climb through the cloud,the communication became unidirectional(perhaps for being at low altitude) that's why there is no record in the video.
I think the pilot made a choice (imo bad choice) to climb to avoid dangerous hilly terrain and ask for flight following , stating his intention to keep climbing to 4000 feet. Please see this article over time line crash (source NTSB):
www.tribtown.com/2020/02/07/us-kobe-bryant-helicopter-crash-timeline/
Start Quote
"9:45 a.m. - The pilot contacts SoCal, reports he is climbing above cloud layers and requests flight following services. A new controller asks the pilot to identify his flight and state his intentions. The pilot says he is climbing to 4,000 feet (1,219 meters) and is not heard from again. Radar shows the helicopter climbing to 2,300 feet (701 meters) and beginning a left turn. Eight seconds later it begins descending. The last data received from the craft was at 1,200 feet (366 meters) about 400 feet (122 meters) from the crash site. A witness says the helicopter emerged from mist and was visible for 1 to 2 seconds before hitting the hillside. It is traveling at more than 180 mph (290 kph)."
End Quote
This accident appears to be a clear cut case of spatial disorientation leading to a graveyard spiral. You have to trust your instruments in this state, which is very difficult to do for even the most experienced pilots. Flying VFR in these conditions is really rolling the dice. Why was he given a special VFR to fly in these conditions should be scrutinized as well. Prayers to the victims and their families.
Bullseye 🎯
The charter company wasn't even allowed to fly IFR so the pilot likely had very little if any IFR experience....
Thank you Bob you worked so hard to bring understanding to all who were saddened when 9 people died aboard that Helicopter
This video deserves way more views. Great job; thanks!
I have listened to a lot of experienced pilots concerning this flight.
Everything about this flight was normal until after he picked up the 101. The cloud base was 1,100ft and the top was 2,400ft that morning, (marine layer) as he flew into the hills over Calabasas, he felt the pinch of the ground coming up towards the cloud base while trying to maintain a safe AGL.(Above Ground Level) This was his first BIG mistake to choose to fly up into the clouds (as VFR he was NOT authorized to do) instead of turning around and going back to Van Nuys to land. (Or at least somewhere)
When he started to climb up to 2,300ft (almost made it, only 100ft to the top of the clouds) he looked up from his instruments (Second BIG mistake) to out the wind screen and lost orientation. This is why he suddenly turned to the left, ( maybe SCUD maneuver to do a 180 and get back away from the hills) descended picking up airspeed and rolled as he hit the hillside. (Either way his descent and roll picking up airspeed are a clear indicator of lost orientation)
He was a very experienced IFR pilot and had within the year completed training for this exact situation. (Flying VFR into IMC thus transition from VFR to IFR)
A very sad situation that could have been avoided and another statistic of VFR into IMC killing spree. Some aircraft pilots get boxed in with VFR to IMC, This pilot had a choice to let go of his "got to get there" mentality and turn around instead of going into the clouds. (Again...which he was NOT authorized to do.)
Great easy to to understand explanation. Thank you
No one knows what he did as yet yet so stop with the assumptions unless you were in the helicopter that's the only way you can know for sure what happened that caused it to elevate so high up in the sky and then come right back down in such speed. I do agree with you that he could have turned around and head back but again we didn't know how much gas he had in there neither do we know if he could have turned around.
@@kizzyharding3529 >the NTSB preliminary report has been published, they have a good idea of what happened, and DrHarry's account appears correct
Aside from weather distractions, we do have one additional fact.
When SoCal asked him to "ident", the pilot did so, and Socal said "You're following a 1200 code".
The pilot should have been using a pre-assigned code (from Burbank) of 0235. Somehow, the pilot at some point had reset his transponder to 1200.
So... now we have the distractions of the weather, which you clearly outlined, AND another distraction (requiring "head-inside-cockpit") of having to re-program the transponder to 0235.
Exactly. Same thing I've been saying. That major mistake was climbing when he got boxed in. Should have turned around or even an emergency landing would have been better than this. A simple turn around would have been the right choice. Dam shame
Great video, Bob! Obviously the trouble really began when Kobe's pilot got into those little hills right where Las Virgenes intersects with the 101. He'd been "threading the needle" all along, but it was right there that there must have been some localized very bad weather. At 130 knots, he ran right into it.
And that's the thing about weather: It's never "smooth" and consistent like the flight simulators often display it. In reality there are pockets of *really bad* stuff, and areas of "better" stuff. You thread your way along, hoping it doesn't really go to shit. Hopefully you've got a Plan B and Plan C in your back pocket. Sadly, in Kobe's case it appears that his pilot did *not* have anything in mind if his route along the 101 became blocked. I suspect he was just going to make it up as he went along (improvise), which is a bad Plan A for any helicopter pilot.
Nothing "inadvertent" about this IMC tragedy. This pilot went poking his nose where he shouldn't have been and 9 people died. The FAA must adopt the NTSB's over 30 recommendations, from over 6 prior Sikorsky Helicopter crashes, that include HTAWS, CVR and Data recorders as well as mandatory continual training of IIMC by pilots operating commercial for hire services. These safety recommendations would have certainly saved the lives of these 9 people and would answer the call of the helicopter industry who have been begging for these changes for years.
But no , why would we want to do that? Island Express doesn't need it, we have to spend MONEY. We only want to charge $5,000 an hour and KEEP IT ALL.
None of that, HTWAS CVR, etc, would have prevented this accident. Last time I checked the FAA does not implement rules because ignorant idiots like yourself get their undies in a twist.
@@scottfranco1962 Its not my recommendations or my "pantys in a twist" it is the NTSB' recommendations after 6 prior accidents of this helicopter type. Try reading a litttle more. You'll get it eventually, probably not.
@@violent_bebop9687 Sarcasm noted. I doubt you will see any push bacl from Island Helicopters or any other operator. These are safety changes that the industry has been asking for prior to this accident going back several decades.
@@JayStClair-mh5wv The NTSB recommends things that are not the cause of the accident (and they say so). You should leave this to real pilots. You using a simulator does not qualify.
Seems the pilot took a chance and ran out of luck...been there, done that. Flying is unforgiving... There are bold pilots and old pilots but, there are no bold old pilots. You must learn your safe limits and then behave yourself.
What you say reminds me of a picture of an early 1900 plane suspended in the only tree in the middle of a field. The caption below...
Aviation is inherently unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.
@@gregp3522 as a south Louisiana amphibian oil field pilot flying in and out of bayou's I identified the same picture you're talking about.
been there done that??? Are you writing us from heaven?
Do you believe he shouldn't of been flying? I believe he should have never taken off.. what are your thoughts
He wasn't old
As soon as I read that this guy both learned how to fly at Van Nuys airport then years latter was an instructor at the same place it was clear to me. He was familliar with the area...too familliar. He thought he knew it so well that he could rely on his ... sense of where he was instead of his eyes or instruments.
I think the pilot developed spatial disorientation in the fog and obviously lost sight of the horizon- WHILE climbing and banking in a turn. In a fixed-wing aircraft would be considered an aerodynamic stall, but helicopters don't Glide very well. Not utilizing the instruments and guessing you know, which way is down is not the way too fly any type aircraft. He literally fell out of the sky at about 184 mph. The last 12 seconds those passengers felt that drop in their stomach and knew something was not right. I'm really upset at the pilot's decisions and actions obviously negligence which took his passengers lives. SAFETY IS NO (KNOW) ACCIDENT!
Are you a pilot?
@ Free fall? Um no
@@el34glo59 I was referring to the physical sensations they would have experienced based on what the instruments showed not aerodynamic free-fall.
@@el34glo59 my grandfather and three of my uncles were pilots, with my grandfather and one of my uncle's being commercial pilots. They both 'Captained' flying big aircraft like the Lockheed 1011 & Boeing 747. So I'd say it's in my blood... and I was kind of "taught" by several of them. Always loved flying but never got my license. Then once I met my 'true love' she wouldn't even let me ride a motorcycle ever again, something that left the ground was never going to be approved.
@@el34glo59 exactly the physical sensation would have been free fall, but it was powered. That's why they hit the ground at about 185 miles an hour! The flight's last 12 seconds was absolutely terrifying for EVERYBODY except for the phucking pilot!
What I've gathered is that he flew in to this thick cloud fog that rolled in (first mistake) that can be seen towards the end of the video and he became completely disoriented with where he was. It appears he climbed so that he could break out of the fog and gain flight following (as he was too low) but during this climb he became disoriented and was not confident in flying the helicopter with instrument only. It appears he panicked and turned the helicopter and may have been confused with what the instruments were saying and what orientation he was and started going in a deep nose dive (perhaps he thought he was going back up but was disorientated and actually obviously going down)? Tragic event and RIP to all
Nice vid Bob. Just a couple comments if I may. When power is added for the climb, in your sim you keep the aircraft in balanced flight. However, in real world, power adds torque which yaws the aircraft right. The proper response is left peddle. What if the pilot was correcting his heading via the cyclic and not scanning his turn needle ball?
At the time of the climb, his vfr route, the 101 starts to veer left. In IIMC conditions, the procedure is a straight climbout. However, if you view the ADS-B hits on radar, you'll see that the aircraft initially started straight then it looks like a turn to the left to maintain his route on the 101. Without any visual reference, the only way he could continue on the 101 is to use his GPS. Looking at either his iPad or center console GPS causes his head to look down and over. It also takes your eyes off your primary flight instruments. It's a proven fact that body movement will follow head movement hence a more severe left turn.
If this aircraft was in a right yaw condition, adding left cyclic will accelerate the angle of bank. A climbing turn with your head looking down and left will cause spatial disorientation as well as possibly vertigo. Once the aircraft reaches 70 degrees angle of bank, it's pretty much over as the nose falls below the horizon. At 1300'agl, with spatial disorientation and possible feelings of vertigo, the aircraft pointing down, airspeed drastically climbing, there is no chance for recovery.
The left bank slowly increases in the climb and we don't see any attempt to level or even get it back to a rate 1 turn. My brain is screaming "Level the wings" while I watch this. He had to be looking at something else. I've had a few IIMCs in FW, immediately got on the artificial horizon and stayed there until back into VFR.
This video shows you exactly what happens when you're not watching the artificial horizon. It reminds me of the Kennedy accident which happened in legal VFR at night.
It would be interesting to sit through this in a full motion simulator with the horizon covered to see what the somatogravic sensations would be.
Wow! Awesome recreation! And great commentary, with the cursor pointing out significant items. Thank you!
They did not ascend into IMC as your video shows. They flew into IMC and then ascended to try and get out of it. The fog was hugging the ground over the 101 that day, somewhat uncharacteristically. You couldn't fly beneath it at all.
I didn't realize how bad flying into the soup would look like in a helicopter this video clearly demonstrates that.... Very scary
Jon Baker This is why I made it. The reality of it... and you really can it tell which way is up when in the clouds. Trust your instruments.
@@BobDenny Thank you for making the video.
The irony about flying in fog is that the weather nearly always clears up and sunny by the time they put you in a body bag
Spatial disorientation happens quickly, to get your scan going after not practicing for while takes time. Such a shame. May they all Rest in Peace.
The attitude indicator seemed really clear to me. Ignoring spatial disorientation, the attitude indicator showed the entire problem. So did the altitude indicator and the speed indicator. None of the flying during the last minutes makes any sense even in zero visibility conditions. Level the vehicle, slow the speed, stabilize the altimeter and call to air traffic control for help. Either fly above the clouds or get vectoring to a location where there are no mountains and then come back down.
Recce Rat Watching this reconstruction I found myself constantly wanting to see the flight instruments. I can not imagine why the panel featured so little here, it as though people think it illegal to use flight instruments when flying VFR. The transition to sole ref. to instruments should have presented no problem.
Reginald Graves hi, I think the OP said the instruments weren’t synced on this simulation. You’re correct tho, in that sketchy weather even VFR you would be paying close attention to them. I know the pilot was instrument rated, but as we all know flying actual IMC takes practice, especially when solo, then add the pressure of not fitted IFR airframe, company policy and client pressure (even subconsciously of not wanting to fail or abort the flight) sadly ends with SD. Easy to look back and see, but from experience, it’s easier than most would think to get into this situation.
@@reccerat4446 I drive with a safety first mindset. I imagine that I would fly with the same mindset. Maybe we need more safety first thinking in aviation. When it's just go or abort, there is little room for safety thinking. The constant fear of "abort" fuels danger.
Thank you for showing us this simulation. Kobe is a hero to so many and an amazing dad and husband.
MG Stevens Me either.
Excellent Job! Thank You Bob for all Your hard work in Making this very Informative Video!
Thanks Gary.
The SoCal controller could apparently hear the pilot even though it isn’t picked up on audio. The LA times reported that his last communication was that he was going to climb to get above the clouds. He did climb to 2300 feet, but then appears to have become disoriented.
And VNY tower cleared him through their airspace "at or below 2500'". Even though VNY airspace extends to just below 3000'.
Does it seem like he tried too climb to fast?
@@TravelMangoMedia I don't have a Helicopter rating, but that's unlikely. More towards spatial disorientation, compounded with multiple distractions (weather, squawk code, actual location, get-there-itis).
@@humanfactorswithpaulgarth9596 ok
@@humanfactorswithpaulgarth9596 yes but from this video it seems like his climbing is what would have brought on the disorientation because as he's going up you see he loses sight of the horizon on his instrument, no?
It's pretty clear that the pilot got disorientated. When entered the clouds.
And then made a sever left turn and started going down at speed.
Sadly full pilot error. As soon as he saw the low clouds he should have turned around. Maybe people in the cabin were freaking out, and it screwed him up. Anxiety. same thing happened to JFK Jr. Not cautious enough.thanks bob!
Easy to make assumptions unless you were in that pilots shoes...
The pilot sounds stressed and confused, and also as if he’s trying his hardest to remain calm, I feel like he knew something was wrong, but didn’t want to make the passengers panic.
He said that those aren’t the actual recordings I believe.
Wow. This is amazing. Thank You!! I’ve been rigorously playing it out in my head way more than I intended to and this helps me see & understand what they experienced on board... I’m glad to see that they weren’t plummeting towards the visible ground watching death come for them.. That’s what I kept replaying in my head, the thought of those dads holding their daughters saying it’s okay as they plummeted towards the ground. Glad that wasn’t the case. Load off my mind.
Thats when the data ended. They def plummeted to the ground in fear.....
@@portalpacific4500 You don't know that at all buddy. Could have been a controlled crash due to loss of awareness
I remember driving on the hwy in a thick winter fog. Could not see a thing and quite honestly I couldn't even tell if I was even on the ground (as ridiculous as that may sound). It must be a 1000x worse while flying
Being in IFR is like being in a plane run up on the ground in dense fog.No relative motion.You can see whisps of vapor pass over the wings but otherwise its just your plane in grey nothingness.
I know what you mean, it's the scariest feeling ever
Ashraful Chowdhury
Being robbed of all of one's senses in a whiteout is indeed terrifying!
If u listen to the pilots dialogue u see he was calm n collected n for the helicopter to just descend so fast it seems like what ever happened happened in a matter of seconds ..Kobe n the crew Mayb didn’t realize they where in danger until the plain started to crash ..so sad rip
This is so sad
Iam watching this and i cant stop crying
Did they die in a instance
@@tayarihorcey4074 no doubt they perished on impact, so they didn't suffer.
Thank you for all of the hard work that went into this, Bob - extraordinary.
.
I love this - thank you - I hate this, because all the time they were circling as I was watching, I was like' they are still alive' get OUT OF THE WEATHER, go down, land, delay the game, it's JUST A GAME. Thank you from my 'Five-Minute Pilot' experience in a 2-man, this was fabulously exciting - and the last part was horrifying with the white out! Ugh! God bless you for helping us see a potential version. I was also following the road map on google when he went NB 5 and WB 118 to the 101. Any clue why he failed to stay west on the 101? I guess with no black box, we'll never know! God only knows!
Janet Stone exactly. Why not just stay on the friggin 101???
I had visual disorientation while just watching this simulation. RIP to the victims.
I'm an amateur fixed-wing pilot and never flown a chopper but there are some general flying similarities though helis are more unstable by nature. Several comments:1) This pilot was a CFii and I think had just completed an updated training regarding IIMC situations. So this is particularly strange. 2) Why was he ultimately flying so fast once conditions started worsening? 3) That heli transport company was not certified for IFR flight (most chopper companies aren't as they rarely fly IFR/IMC) and he was already at Special VFR which is one step away from IFR/IMC conditions. 4) Normally once you enter IMC from VFR you turn 180 degrees in the direction you just came from. Not sure why he didn't abort the trip at that point. 5) The sudden altitude increase could be two reasons a) He knew the tops were at around 2400 MSL and he was looking to go vfr above the clouds OR b) could he have experienced some health issue? (medical report might discover something). An experienced pilot once switching to instruments will keep his eyes on various key instruments: altimeter, IAS airspeed and most importantly ATTITUDE indicator. If you stay level attitude and climbing you could have reached the tops and broken out back into VFR above the clouds. The fact that his attitude was dramatically banking left could be because he was not trusting the instruments and was looking out left-hand side window for the ground (or for mountain terrain) which then makes you bank in direction of your line of sight until you reach a point of no return and aircraft starts to "slip" in direction of the bank angle with corresponding airspeed & G forces increasing and recovery becomes impossible. And I keep thinking that one of the greatest assets helis have is the ability to STOP in mid-air and hover. He never even stopped for a moment once things got bad. This was going fairly well considering the weather.... until it didn't. Wow! RIP
helicopters cant just stop in mid air and hover, thats a misconception
Before Kobes accident, 200 pilots were tested in IFR conditions, average time to fatality was 173 seconds.
Yes all helicopters can hover, but it requires:
More concentration to hover than to fly, because helicopters are unstable in the hover in pitch and roll. Forward airspeed provides stability and flying a helicopter with forward airspeed is comparable with flying a fixed wing plane, while hovering is comparable with standing on top of a large inflatable ball.
More power to hover than to fly with forward airspeed. This is because in the hover, there is more induced drag than in forward flight.
In order to hover, available power must be larger than required power. Available engine power reduces with increasing altitude due to the decreasing air density, and this results in helicopters having a hover ceiling, where power available is equal to power required.
Ground effect reduces required power, resulting in two hover ceilings, In Ground Effect and Outside Ground Effect. But even below the OGE hover ceiling, it is simply safer for a helicopter to pick up forward airspeed shortly after takeoff:
As stated, flying at speed leaves more fuel on board for the required trip duration.
While hovering OGE, altitude must be kept using the altimeter, while unstable pitch and roll must be corrected. The concentration required during looking at the instruments reduces situational awareness. Keeping the helicopter level cannot be done using only the instruments since the peripheral vision is not involved. Where the wind takes the helicopter cannot be viewed from the instruments, and onflying fixed wing aircraft are much harder to focus on.
If altitude is not maintained in OGE hover, there is the possibility that the helicopter enters vortex ring state, a dangerous situation where it sinks into its own rotor wake. Vortex ring state does not exist when flying forwards.
From avaition.stackexchange.com
@Ricky Springfield The so called "get there itis" a disease that killed alot of people in Aviation! So yes i have to agree..
try spacing your comments
It appears that reading from the preliminary NTSB report that he wanted to "pop up" and out of the marine layer as the tops were at 2400. He knew the terrain was closing in and felt that executing the escape maneuver was his best option, unfortunately he apparently lost SITNESS, got disoriented and ended up in an over bank which in a helo is a VERY deadly thing to do...he slid "over the side" and had no room to recover. Sounds like he was a competent and CURRENTLY IFR trained pilot who just got into a bad situation and didn't get "luckY' enough to get out of it this time. RIP...
My question is why bank left? There is no terrain to the right. He knew at 2400 he'd clear the clouds and be home free. Why not continue your ascent up above 2400' into VFR and get everyone home safely. The left bank and descent still make zero sense to me. When someone comes up with "why" he did this we'll all have some answers.
TakeDeadAim very well said. Tragic and unfortunate what happened to an experienced pilot
They were 100 feet from coming out of the soup
@@DieselBear Yes, Blancolirio's channel has an incredible explanation especially for us non pilots.
@@donsremodeling an eye witness mountian biking within 100s of feet Stated he could see the belly of the helicopter As it was descending with the banking left turn for impact.. Still very possible there was some type of loss of control to explain the descent
I have aviation experience with both planes and helicopters. Helicopters are very complex. Unlike airplanes once airborne you have to stay on top of the controls. I could teach anyone to keep an airplane in the air once it's in flight. A helicopter is a different story. Besides the gauges...you have your main stick which makes the helicopter go forward, back, left, and right. The tail rotor peddles to spin left and right. Your collective and throttle is to your left. The collective is what puts the appropriate pitch in the blades that makes the craft go up and down. You change the pitch by lifting this handle up and down. You do this while simultaneously twisting it for the appropriate throttle. So...both hands and feet are always working together to keep the helicopter flying. In all honesty helicopters are safer than airplanes in my opinion. If the engine quits in an airplane you need to find a long open clearing fast. Whereas a helicopter you can land in a relatively small area. Auto rotation allows the pilot to over speed the main blades so that they can flair it at the appropriate time allowing you to set the helicopter down relatively gently. However the one similarity in all aircraft is the gauges. You have to be proficient reading your instruments. It's very easy for any pilot to have spatial disorientation happen to them. This is why you should always trust those gauges. An experienced pilot would and should have avoided this accident. The lack of visibility shouldn't of mattered here. It's a real shame this happened.
You don't adjust the throttle in flight though in the s-76, there is a governor that controls the RPM for you automatically.
@@cbcdesign001 I think his aviation experience is limited to video games......
The controls aren't what makes helicopters more complicated, it's the fact they are statically stable but dynamically unstable. A small change in one input throws everything else out of whack in ways that aren't easy to correct for without experience.
What crazy is his helicopter didnt have a terrain awareness system. Like how can something so important not be required in helicopters it’s ridiculous
Do you know da way: you obviously don’t know what you’re talking about. TAWS will not help you once you’ve gone spatial due to IIMC.
Do you know da way The NTSB recommended
(multiple times I believe) the FAA require all these helicopters get retrofitted with it and black boxes. But the FAA chose not to. Like with the 737 MAX 8 they put cost concerns of aircraft mfgs /operators ahead of safety. But I don’t think TAWS would have saved this trip as the helicopter fell out of the sky over 1200 feet onto a hill. It didn’t fly into a hill as was originally reported.
The NTSB preliminary report did list a radio altimeter in the equipment. However, when the attitude is almost completely on the side no terrain warning system is going to work because the terrain is no longer under the craft.
@@whoanelly737-8 Even then is it safer to have one then not too
The addition of more safety equipment would not have prevented this accident. If the pilot had utilized the existing instruments installed on the aircraft this would not have occurred.
I can’t help but wonder why he would’ve been flying at such a high speed in the first place. By the time he flew into the cloud it was over.
Nicely done. #SMH
As an R--22/R-44 PIC-qualified pilot I've been in my own fair share of complex airspace and, yes, with SVFR. It ain't fun. But I had several outs and never had get-there-itis. Perhaps that's why I can type this.
I had my eyes closed pretending i was in the helicopter n before i knew it , it crashed made me realize how quick life can end especially considering the fact kobe rode in helicopters for over 20 yrs
Pilot never got clearance to transition into IFR from SVFR but went ahead anyway,classic get thereitus coupled with spatial disorientation.
francine corry the sad part is that he didn’t get clearance. I truly believe he was disoriented and couldn’t see where he was going. I just don’t understand why they started climbing and then took a left turn.
@@dugansmith4144 He got boxed in. Running out of airspace as the clouds were getting lower. He needed to keep his eye on the road. And he had to keep going lower. Eventually he pulled up to get over the clouds. Probably glanced away from his instruments for a veey short time while, and lost his bearings. It's unfortunate but it happens fast
I'm from Argentina, I don't even like basketball so much, but I'm still disturbed by this tragedy, maybe because how big Kobe was, maybe because I have a daughter, maybe because it could have been avoided.
Mena Mena exactly, I’m absolutely convinced the pilot should have said no or stopped the flight. I also have a feeling they have done it many times before in same conditions but it’s like Russian Roulette. I don’t think using this as a primary mode of transportation was a very smart thing to do, the used helicopter everywhere they went. Just my thoughts.
@@Love_maui_2017 The whole team flew the same path the day before with no issues at all. If it's your time, it's your time. We will be in it sooner or later.
ShutDFckOff he should have said no the day before and the time before - doesn’t make it right but I do agree accidents happen and if it’s your time - it’s your time. This is what happens when you have so much money you rely on helicopters to go to a basketball game - just move to Los Angeles geez
I don’t understand WHY u would go through all of this, when you could have just turned back or landed the damn thing.
J STYLES maybe so, but I just hate when senseless things like this happen. No matter who it is. To all of the pilots here posting. If it’s a no go, then don’t Go. All of the other agencies and the LA PD didn’t go. If you want to hot dog it and be Maverick, make sure you are flying by yourself. Don’t risk other lives. You can’t 100 percent predict weather. The weather report is just a prediction, you never know EXACTLY what you will run into when your are up there. Remember SAFETY FIRST!!!
@@Timetaker1000 - it is not an established fact that every other VFR helicopter in the L.A. basin was "grounded" that morning. That is your assumption and it may very well not be true. The weather at Kobe's departure point, as well as interim airports along the way, was actually pretty good. - for a helicopter. Kobe's pilot had every reason to believe they would make it to Camarillo. Let us remember that a P.D. helicopter *did* respond to the accident scene - we saw pictures of it hovering over the crash site not long after it happened.
That Bob Guy, good point!!
Steve D yep
Well made video. Both for fixed Wing or rotor. I wish I had had this type of presentation when I was instructing my Cadets.
A sad event, could have been avoided.
Keep up the good work Bob !
Thanks, Bob, for putting this one together. Gives us pilots a little right-seat perspective. White-Out @23:40. EYE’S GLUED to the “4”s at that point. Alt./ASI/& AH fluctuated dramatically, but not the wet-compass.
Thank you for this. I watched because my mind still can’t truly comprehend/accept it. Excellent sim. Wish it wasn’t necessary.
With helicopters recording only a 14% rate of survival when entering IIMC shouldn't VFR Helis get landing priority when weather is closing in. This Copter was left waiting 20 minutes as weather closed. ATC should recognise their role in this disaster.
Not a bad idea. Flight control triage
Weather at Burbank was not "closing in" while N72EX was holding outside Class C airspace. It's not up to ATC to make decisions for aircraft, it's up to pilots to state intentions. N72EX did not request to land, he asked to enter Class C airspace under special VFR rules in order to transit the airspace. This was allowed after IFR traffic was clear. ATC has no responsibility for the accident.
Yeah nice try blaming atc. I guess you believe in the nanny state huh. As a pilot you're responsible for your aircraft's and passengers safety.
That 20 minute delay, the heli full passenger capacity, a day before made same trip in 30 minutes, is there a reason to think the gas was limited?, the fast altitude the pilot took and then a descend makes me think that it was a natural reaction when the pilot began loosing engine power!
Priority is given to aircraft that are flying true IFR. Like the commercial aircraft the rest of us fly in.
ATC did nothing wrong, at the end of the day the pilot has to make the call as to whether or not it is safe to fly and this particular pilot made a poor choice.
Death by rules? Seems to me we got a IFR pilot flying into IFR conditions trying to remain in VFR airspace because he is not certified to fly passengers in IFR airspace. Seems he lost situational awareness trying to be a good VRF guy in an IFR situation.
My thoughts Exactly
Is it true, that due to spacial orientation, and being unable to see anything outside, that the passengers may have no idea they were crashing? Is it true that they may have not even known what was happening? Sorry to ask this, but for some reason this is haunting me.
I think you have a point. I doubt the pilot knew what the hell was going on.
I think it depends on whether the aircraft stalled or not. If so, I would think the horror of a dead fall/spin (or the physical effects of unusual motions) would be felt. But if the altitude decrease and speed were controlled (even, albeit in an erratic manner) they may not have noticed until right before impact. If you search for "Brazilian wedding helicopter crash" here on youtube, you will experience the grim horror of more than likely, what Kobe and company also experienced. Be warned, it's tough to watch. Honestly though, given the extreme variation in attitude and descent rate (which you can clearly observe in this simulation), I'm pretty sure it stalled and they were all very aware of what was happening :(
That was the point. Simulations take work to perfect and this was pretty good for a first run.
Excellent simulation...scary as hell...hard to believe a pilot with his qualifications and experience would succumb so quickly to spacial disorientation...
The fog comes
on little cat feet.
It sits looking
over harbor and city
on silent haunches
and then moves on.
- Sandburg
This is why I always freak out when flying private. Public Airlines there’s more than just a pilot making a decision to get there. Very little chance of get there idess...
Game time was at 12pm and the crash happened at 9:45am. They had more than 2 hours to get there. He did not have to hurry, but I guess the combination of the circle patterns in Glendale and maintaining high airspeed into elevated terrain and poor visibility contributed to poor judgement. Reduced airspeed, until hovering, and then a 180-degree reverse back to Van Nuys Airport would have been a better option. From there, it's a 40 minute drive to Camarillo :/
Van Nuys controller: “... ceiling 1100 overcast” (the person doing the video only dropped clouds to 1300 feet).
If the clouds are 1100 feet at Van Nuys in the flatland, that is a good warning not to fly over a mountain pass. The NTSB reports elevation of the helicopter crash site as 1085 feet.
Edit: I read elsewhere that the clouds were at 1900 feet. Apparently Van Nuys airport (800 feet above sea level) gave the distance the clouds were from the ground, not their distance above sea level. Weird that they report the distance above the ground and the pilot reports back his altitude (1400 and 1500 feet) as feet above sea level.
Lockbert--elevation of terrain is above sea level. Airport ceiling/cloud base reports are above ground level. Big difference.
How in the hell did an instrument rated pilot NOT see his bank angle on the artificial horizon nor his vertical speed indicator. I just can’t fathom how such a thing can go unnoticed. Even the audio of the helicopter crashing..doesn’t sound like it was thrashing around out of control. I seriously feel that he may have suffered a medical issue. Sadly, we’ll probably never know.
VSI out of service in this particular simulator. But you do have a point.
Great Simulation! Thanks! There are a lot of uninformed opinions here. This was a case of spacial disorientation. VFR to IMC. The pilot was instrument rated, but the helicopter service he worked for only flew in conditions where you can see everything with your eyes (VFR). He probably had not flown using only his instruments (IFR) in a very long time. Flying a helicopter on instruments is probably the hardest thing to do in aviation. It plays tricks on your mind and body. Weather can worsen quickly. It has killed the very best pilots. Stop judging.
@bluegoose03 The pilot was instrument rated, but he failed to control the aircraft solely by reference to the instruments. All he had to do was climb to on-top (another few hundred feet would have done it), squawk 7700, confess to inadvertent IMC, then fly east to hopefully find a break in the overcast. Instead he likely lost it due to inability to fly by instruments.
bluegoose03
yes! The helicopter company was a VFR ONLY service even though pilot and and helicopter were instrument capable. Lol, probably an insurance matter.
@@bearbuster157 I would argue that the pilot was instrument capable. He was apparently instrument rated but his capabilities did not include the instinct of transitioning to instruments and flying away from the ground.
Bob Denny
I think he got disoriented while setting the autopilot after turning and climbing.
Ok folks...this is my last comment on this video. Because of it I think I know what happened. Things were uneventful until the pilot got to Burbank. When he got to Burbank Airport there was a lot of traffic including an aircraft that was circling the airport waiting to land. Most of the traffic were planes attempting to land more likely because the weather became too crappy. As a result Kobe's pilot was instructed to hold so he flew to Glendale out of the airport traffic space and engaged in a 12 minute holding pattern. The planes that were taking off from Burbank were climbing to 4000 feet presumably above the clouds. The air traffic controller then asked a plane waiting to take off to hold to give Kobe's pilot the go ahead. He then flew towards Van Nuys Airport and was given instructions to contact them. He flew up the 5 to connect to the 118 freeway. When he got to Van Nuys he interrupted a communication between the control tower and a plane that was taking off which was instructed to climb to 4000 feet. Once Kobe's pilot left the Van Nuys control space he was instructed to contact So Cal air traffic control. Kobe's pilot never contacted So Cal control because at that point he was following the 101 at a high speed at a low altitude (1200 feet.) Kobe's pilot was cheating the system by flying low because he wanted to make up for lost time. By flying low he avoids the cloud cover and radar was unable to pick him up and give him flight instructions. At this point in time I think ego or the willing to please Kobe fell into place. He wanted to get his famous client to his point of destination on time. Unfortunately when he got to Calabasas the pilot ran into a fog bank. That part of southern California is called the Gold Coast. They include cities like Thousand Oaks, Westlake, Malibu, Agoura Hills, Camarillo, etc. They are at least 10 miles away from the coast. In Orange County it's called the Orange Coast which includes cities such as Huntington Beach, Newport Beach, etc. When the pilot reached the Gold Coast the fog became thicker and he couldn't see. He tried to get out of the fog by ascending but he couldn't. The chopper didn't have enough power to climb sufficiently and he lost control, veered to the left and fell out of the sky the result being catastrophic! Poor judgement and the weather caused this crash and the lives of 9 souls. May they rest in peace! I rest my case.
I say he intentionally killed them.
@@Nisie23 this guy is a novice who's watched a dozen or more videos and thinks he's now an expert. RUclips gives you that kind of confidence. haha
riveratpful --had nothing to do with not having enough ppwer---The pilot became disoriented in the zero visibility flight conditions. He was trying to climb above the clouds. Although the helicopter had flight instruments and he was instrument-rated, it is nearly impossible to fly a helicopter by reference to only instruments at slow airspeeds--in this case he was doing a steep climb with high vertical speed and low airspeed. His disorientation caused him to lose control, which resulted in that 4000+ feet per minute unrecoverable descent into the ground. Contrary to many reports, he did not "fly into a mountain".
this was possible the most reliable helicopter in world. Same manufacters as black hawk helicopters. I promise you it was cable of climbing with all crew on board. NTSB ruled out malfunction.
wall of text........... kobe flew into yours
Don't pay attention to the asshole comments, That was a excellent job you did and more realistic and factual that anything I have seen on youtube. This pilot used zero good judgment and bordered on criminal . You can hear ATC kinda saying "are you kidding like what hell are you doing flying in this soup what are you crazy?'
That was as sudden as it was scary. RIP to all. Ball games or practices aren’t worth your life.
Look at that artificial horizon at 24:16+ !! Good job emphasizing that with the cursor as you made this video. Great work putting this together.
I’m not an aviation expert by any means, matter of fact only time I flew something was in GTA when I was completing missions but even I know that flying in the fog is a big no no
I called it from the beginning spatial disorientation, once he started scud running up the 118 or whatever it is ceiling lowered, terrain got higher, i think he panicked, went into the climb, and a hundred feet from breaking out into VFR at 2400ft they only made it a 2300, went into that hard left bank and dive that I don't think he ever even knew he was in until he broke out 800ft from rhe ground and couldn't recover, eyewitness said the helicopter rolled almost inverted right before hitting, hard to even imagine the fear in those last few seconds, RIP all involved.
@Doctor MindBenDa Odd how you put the women first, as if their life is somehow more important. You have it wrong, sir....children always come first.
I have only high respect for air traffic controllers...but i don't envy their job.
PILOT ERROR... it's just sad
Bullseye 🎯
Not error...pure carelessness!!
Very interesting Bob. Nice work pulling the data and audio together.
It have a time losing at the end
On September 9, 1984 we lost our sister and brother-in-law in a similar situation. Fast changing weather conditions, pilot error. Then John Kennedy Jr. exactly the same. Including the grief left behind, and now Kobe. My heart doesn’t heal
How often do you get to fly actual IFR in sunny so. Cal.? Doesn’t matter how you are rated if you don’t keep current with actual experience.
Accidents like this is why ALL aircraft, fixed or rotatory wing should have at least a voice recorder on it.
Why? So we could hear Ara talking to himself? "This looks bad but I gotta get Kobe there" The ATC discussions are already a matter of record. Maybe you read the press crap about that NTSB board member talking about this stuff??? She is an idiot.
@@BobDenny wtf are you talking about???
@@BobDenny I recall her talking abt TAWS which also makes no sense to me given how ridiculous it would be for helicopters. She should have limited her comments to the known facts that day. OTOH, she does do significant homework before the hearings.
@@BobDenny this guy just asked a simple question, what's wrong with that??
Very sad outcome. Thank you for sharing
SoCal could not provide flight following because the altitude of the a/c was below *radar* coverage - not because of the radio coverage.
The speedometer is the gauge to the left of the two-color gauge that has no units or circling arrow. The speedometer is in knots which are close to, but more than miles per hour. When the person says “look at the speed!” (21:53) it shows about 141 knots, which translates to 162.26 mph. The altimeter is the gauge to the right of the two-color gauge that has no units or circling arrow. The smaller hand appears to point to “1000’s of feet above sea level” and the larger “100s of feet above sea level” (combine the two hands like a clock : the smaller hand should only be considered as 0, 1000, 2000, etc.)
Tom Gulbranson People are familiar with miles per hour, not knots, hence the conversion.
Tom Gulbranson Your “education” said the small hand only indicates “exact number altitudes when pointing directly at a number”. That is like saying the hour hand on a watch only represents the hour when it is pointing directly at a number.
Tom Gulbranson You will have to explain “parts of hundreds”. The small hand has to indicate 2,000 feet to be added to the big hand when it is between 2 and 3, even if it also indicates something else. How else would a pilot know they are at 2200 feet?
I used to live just off Las Virgenes and have driven the 101 to Camarillo about a thousand times - at first I assumed he was confused by Las Virgenes veering south and thought it was the 101 so he went that way for a few seconds then decided to U-turn. But now I think what happened is when he came over the little hill between West Hills and Las Virgenees, he ran into wall of clouds that he couldn't fly under due to the fact that really soon the terrain steeply rises again on its way over a substantial hill between Newbury Park and Camarillo. So his plan was to spiral up a few thousand feet then fly over the clouds and then drop back into Camarillo. Had he spiraled to the West of Las Virgenes instead of the East of it, he would have had nothing but a flat residential area below him and would be alive today. But as everybody seems to be saying, the sudden wall of clouds got him disoriented during the aggressive climbing turn (classic problem) and he pitched it into the hillside. Had he kept oriented, his plan would have worked. I guess there's about a 0.2% chance he turned too abruptly and blacked out due to a medical condition or some kind of toxicology issue, which we will learn about in due course.
Agree. He thought he was west of Las Virgenes but was East
Bob, terrific simulation with your tools. Thank you for sharing. Doesn’t appear he was watching the artificial horizon.
Seems like he was already going forward too fast and then he tried to climb very fast as well.
I think he stalled the main rotor by flying into a thermal down draft. He was flying fast and hard. The ship rolled left and headed down, textbook rotor stall.. clearly he could see his instruments and could have leveled out. Also, why decend onto the mountain range? He clearly lost control of the craft by stalling the rotor..
He should have kept the ground in view and made a precautionary landing in a parking lot or field.
Totally agree. Why not do that? Makes the most sense to fly low along side the freeway
Juan Brown lead me here , nice piece of work, keep it up pls.
This is so upsetting!! The pilot was careless, reckless and arrogant!! Why the fuck didn’t he put the helicopter down??? It’s clear he had no idea wtf he was doing under those conditions!! He needed to followed on the radar the whole time. This is so unreal! I don’t care if the pilot would’ve been alone and got himself killed for those stupid decisions. But he killed 8 others that trusted him with their safety!
Although I don't disagree that he should have put it down in a field or parking lot, I think he would have done just that if he had been flying alone. The external pressure he felt to get Kobe (who he had a blossoming friendship with, as he had flown him several times before) to his destination on time, likely effected his aeronautical decision making quite severely. So I don't think it's quite as black and white as an arrogant pilot overestimating his abilities to fly in weather.
Why are you just blaming the pilot?they texted each other before hand.they knew the weather was shitty.he choose to fly that day.the same way you would get into your car if the weather was shitty.that's how he traveled.easy to toss rocks at a glass house.he didn't drive like you or I do.it was normal for him.it was his lifestyle.the whole pressure thing is just a side show.
@@Herecomesthethruth The pilot is responsible. He was the captain of the ship.
@@robertross7666 Land the damn helicopter instead of canyon crawling at 140 knots. That is blistering fast given the visibility.
Kobe should just never used helicopters and he and his daughter would be alive celebrities think they are invincible
Thank you .. Great work.. R.I.P to all souls on board...
The pilot was a certified flight instructor and he instructed other helicopter pilots how to fly in the clouds how can He crash after entering the clouds for 10 seconds when this is what he does for a living
When you plan on flying VFR, it’s easy to forget about an out route or exit in the terrain. Just because he was qualified and an instructor doesn’t mean he had a lot of time in actual foggy conditions. That’s the problem with IFR training is it’s not like you are always in a real world foggy situation. Plus when you do train, you are EXPECTING IFR weather. This situation sounds like he got caught off guard with rising terrain and low elevation. It just takes seconds to look away from the 6 pack (instruments) and you could already be doomed. That dive wasn’t recoverable at that altitude/speed.
All I can think about is that poor child realizing the helicopter was going to crash, very sad.
@Jerry Polete child?? You mean Kids!!
@@allgasnobrakes919 children
I dont think they knew until right before impact.
Yea they didnt know. Its called controled flight into terrain. Pilot was not flying IFR only. He was using special VFR.
Nicely done my friend 👊! Thanks for sharing. Really informative.
Note: VFR Flight Following requires an assigned 4 digit Squawk Code
10:15 - Squawk 0235, remain outside of Charlie Airspace
14:18 - Radar Service is terminated. REMAIN that squawk.
16:18 - "We have 0235" Note: This makes no sense. You would not verbally inform ATC that you have a pre-assigned squawk code. My surmise is that he had inadvertently reset the transponder to 1200 when he heard "Radar service is terminated" earlier.
16:24 - When ATC is asking him if he wants to talk to SoCal (for Flight Following), it's likely because his transponder is showing 1200. If it was 0235, it would be implied that he wanted Flight Following. '
18:08 - ATC is likely thinking he wants to start a NEW request for Flight Following.
19:29 - 72EX ident. Note: This means that ATC is asking, "Which of the 1200 codes are you?"
19:35 - You're following a 1200 code....
THIS IS A MAJOR PROBLEM!
The pilot knows that he needs to have that pre-assigned code of (0235) in the transponder. For whatever reason, he didn't correct it from before. Now he likely corrects it with "head-inside-the-cockpit".
Then he looks up.... and doesn't know he's already in zero visibility.
I think I get what your saying. The squawk code was for VFR flight following. The ATC when switching shifts had this flight as an IFR flight because of there being no squawk?
I’ve flown in this airspace. When ATC ask him if he wanted flight following because if he said no then then VNY tower would just tell him to squawk VFR 1200. The 0235 squawk was only needed for him to transition in class C and D airspace. When he was outside of the VNY D he have an option to go on his own without talking to anybody.
@@Jopanaguiton That's true that outside of VNY Class D he had the option to go his own way without talking to anybody, but I'm remembering the audio with VNY tower where she asked him if he wanted Flight Following. She gave him the frequency for SoCal. Why would he then switch to 1200?
Burbank Tower gave him the squawk 0235 and said, "Radar service terminated. Remain this squawk.
Question: Do you see my point about the possibility that he may have mistakenly flipped to 1200 after Burbank Tower said, "Radar service terminated. Remain this squawk"?? The way VNY Tower was talking, it didn't appear he was showing a code. He also verbally said, "We have 0235" - which doesn't really make sense.
Human Factors with Paul Garth probably exactly what happened he hit squawk VFR when BUR told him radar service is terminated. It’s kind of a muscle memory to hit that button when I hear radar service is terminated.
@@Jopanaguiton I know you know the area - I had to look at a VFR sectional and then overlay the street maps.
One additional layer of distraction, just before the "ident" request, was that 72EX started asking VNY if he could turn south from the 118 to the 101. At the exact same time another pilot started talking to VNY and there was an extended chat about SIDs, etc. That lasted about 20 seconds. This means that 72EX is now further west on the 118 than he wanted to be. Looking at a street map, it's obvious why he would have wanted to turn early from the 118 (with VNY on his left side) - terrrain.
Q: I can't remember the answer to this -- would VNY allow him to go through their airspace without an assigned squawk code, considering SVFR? VNY kept saying "are you in VFR conditions?"
Q: He was cleared at our below 2500 by VNY. While VNY airspace goes up to just below 3000, is it possible that 72EX stopped short because of his clearance restriction? If he had gone up to 3000' it may have been a different outcome.
One distraction after another...
Wow. I've read how disorienting flying in the clouds (VFR into IMC) can be, but it was something else entirely to watch it happen in real time here. It's instant, total sensory deprivation. Terrifying.
A bit of constructive criticism: some more commentary would have really enriched this video. For instance, towards the end, the narrator says "Lookit the speed". It would have been VERY valuable (and appreciated) to explain specifically why that was important. I would have liked to know. Aviation is a casual interest of mine, I am not remotely an expert.
The pilot was pushing beyond the recommended 155 knot red-line.
Even for a layman as I am , the video is very instructive and self-explanatory of what ocurred (I had to google the functioning of attitude-gyro dash instrument). Thanks for your effort to gather all data and displaying it in such ilustrative way. I'm sorry for all the lifes lost; RIP all of them; and sorry for the pilot: I forgive him because he was confronted with highly adverse conditions. Wrong decision getting into the soup: he should have landed anywhere, any place available by sight.Thanks.
Just cant understand how he didnt notice how hard the altimeter was pitched left.
I've done it in the full 3D of virtual reality. It is extremely realistic (Google Earth VR). After doing that, I still have a theory that the pilot mistook the nearby last exit (left) as a continuation of the freeway he was following as a result of poor visibility in the fog. So instead of the pass opening up at that exit location he remained in a vulnerable position off to the left. You only have to "loose it" for an instant there and you can crash.
mesillahills I think so, too. He mistook the exit for the continuance of the highway and followed it instead. The ground came up to the fog and he had nowhere to go.
I still dont see what's so hard about just watching ur altimeter and horizon bubble . keep the bubble level and watch altimeter and slowly decend until visibility is good and land that damn thing
Trust me, you feel level when you aren’t. It’s hard to fight that
if you did what you just stated you would slam right into the same mountain. AH and Altimeters are completely unaffected by terrain. You're also flying a helicopter so your AH is of limited value depending on your airspeed and pitch.
your inner ear plays tricks on you when you have no visibility and can make you think you are going up when youre crashing and make you turn and think you're level
@@barlitosantana9708 That's why you train to ignore those feelings. It's a pretty basic skill every pilot should have. It used to be more emphasized in pilot training, I don't know why it's not anymore.
Hi. I have a question. Why didn't the pilot just land the Helicopter once he realized it was to much fog and clouds.
Wadiyah Abdur-Rahim He was trying to gain altitude and break through the fog, he was only a 100 ft from doing so.
Wadiyah Abdur-Rahim He Never Gave Up... So he tried to go above cloud layers but it was so thick.. It fell
Because he was a FOOL!
It is illegal for FAA to land it anywhere
@@flyjuice heartbreaking to hear that, man
Pilots, when he ascended into the clouds and got whiteout, why didnt he focus on his instruments especially the level flight device. Yes i know he was cleared for VFR only...But this would have told him if he was banking hard or not...at least get it level and continue climbing no? Is that not common sense? He can see his altitude is climbing, he knows hes in whiteout fog. He obviously can't see out the window. So why not direct attention to level flight device or at least glance every few seconds to make necessary adjustments so you are not turning left or banking left or right? Would that have solved the spacial disorientation?
Do you know what a violent yaw movement is? and how it affects a helicopter, and how, if one is lucky, recover from that movement? Imagine, you are the pilot, the helicopter is losing altitude and the people inside realize they are in trouble. what do you think their response is? Are you able to concentrate on the problem or the noises filling the cabin? You don't have TAWS, and that's probably a good thing, because it would be alarming at all kinds of audio warning in addition to everything else going on.
Remember, he left radar at 1,100 feet. The Sun USA reported the aircraft fell 875 feet in 15 seconds in giants headlines. That means the pilot had 15 secs after going below radar at 125 feet, helo was on its way to the ground. Here is another item. The helo weighs 7,006 lbs, before outfitting. The two calculations I have are they fell from 875 feet, in around 7 seconds. The Sun USA actually did not calculate for weight of the helicopter. No way it took 15 secs, try about half that, and so, how fast did it hit the ground? somewhere around 162 MPH.
That “Level-Flight Device” is called an “Artificial Horizon”..
seems like there was some other contributing event besides the disorientation. The radio silence alone speaks volumes on his behalf. He could've suffered a massive stroke/cardiac event and was incoherent and disoriented. Thanks for the great video. Amazing job!! RIP to all who lost their precious lives in this horrible tragedy. God Bless ♥♥♥
Apparently the audio recording from the SoCal air control didn’t pick up the pilot’s communication even though the air controller could hear him. The LA Times reported his last communication to SoCal was that he was going to climb to get above the clouds.
Radio silence after disorientation was the proper thing to do. It would have been irresponsible for the pilot to engage in the distraction of talking to people who could not help while he had a critical situation going.
With all the holding they had to do they may as well have driven .
but they wouldn't have known before hand. They would have preferred walking than what happened
Gus, I can tell you've never, ever, had to drive from Newport Beach all the way through LA and on up to Ventura County. This can take up to 90 min in traffic. It's a beast of a drive.
@Despiser Despised on a sunday morning. They could have made it in 90 minutes... carpool lane too.
Ok does this simulation make it seem way easier than it is in real life? Looking at the altimeter as the narrator said, if I'm understanding it right, in the last few seconds he seems to be pitched upwards with a left bank, the horizon being on the bottom of the instrument with a tilt. He maintains the left bank but then the horizon starts to come up which means he starts to pitch downwards and go downwards. At that point wouldn't he turn out of the left bank and pull back up to correct that if he's seeing that on the instrument? It doesn't seem like he even attempted to that. Is that hard to do under these circumstances?
most experts are perplexed at how poorly he handled that IMC condition when you factor in he was instructor for IFR for helicopter.
@@carlhammill5774 exactly
It appears visuals became blocked quite instantly. Kinda like a blackout. Must have been extremely frightening for the pilot. Not sure if the passengers felt the same way as they probably had confidence in him. I hope their last moments wasn't spent in extensive pain and agony. I like to believe they weren't.
yeah, can't even imagine all of the pressure on him, plus how the passengers were
feeling in back. Also wonder if they were behind schedule for the game, i.e. he put
some speed to it.
Why he didn't just emergency land the helicopter if he literally couldn't see??
Lord he knew he had kids and parents on board SMDH
Mr. Bob Denney. I'm just curious in asking you this question but was there any way that he could have landed this helicopter.
Yes, emergency landing or before entering the canyon turn around and go back to the Van Nuys airport.
I realize he was only ~100-feet from reaching clear skies, after climbing into the soup, but it seems he's breaking the special VFR to fly into the clouds. He really couldn't switch to instruments because ATC didn't have a flight plan for him. His outfit was VFR only. Why climb and risk disorientation? I wish he had been more conservative.
Tops were listed as 2400 back at Burbank. Other reports said they were higher where he was. The SVFR clearance only applied back in Van Nuys' airspace. He was no longer under that. Deciding to go IFR without such a clearance is illegal but perhaps he found that a better alternative than the worsening weather conditions. In hindsight, course reversal a lot sooner, even never departing John Wayne was obviously better.
He was ifr rated and had ifr installed in the helicopter so it was outfitted that’s false
Would not have gone into the hills under those conditions anyway. Would have landed and hopped into a car for the rest of the journery.
@@Bestever-qt2kp watch this short video from an aviation expert for concise info about the flight and why he couldn't fly using IFR.
ruclips.net/video/BCLNJLjitSs/видео.html
Not false, his outfit (meaning his company he flew charters for) only flew VFR. He may have been rated IFR but it doesn't sound like he used those transition skills often, if at all. Plus, he never had an IFR plan. As someone else said, it's illegal to simply go IFR on your own without a flight plan.
My 64 Pontiac would always overheat in that pass..
They had several side turn-outs for folks to cool down their rigs.
Some One
the pass is around 4,200 feet. There are some mountains around that are close to 8000. that is why the pilot tried to fly up so high to get above the clouds and get his bearings.
Seems to me a case of an excellent and experienced pilot, suddenly finding himself in a combination of bad flying conditions, and then perhaps he then he gets some spatial disorientation which leads him to put the helicopter into a an unrecoverable attitude.
...to better understand the body's loss of spatial disorientation in dangerous fog or thick clouds, when the likelihood of totally inaccurate and false sensations coming from the fluid in our own confused inner ears' 3D natural gyroscopes increases drastically, just check out a few pilot education videos here on RUclips, or just try sitting next to someone driving down the block and turning the corner , with you sitting there with your head down and eyes closed..and that is while operating only in
two dimensions, while a pilot has to work constantly in all three dimensions...plus dealing with precious time itself...