I often joke that the FAA hires people that got fired from every job they held in the private sector. Now I think the NTSB hires people that were fired from the FAA.
"There were no indications this operator was unsafe." "So I see a disconnect here. This company had a crash and you're saying there were no indications they were unsafe." So the NTSB Chairman expects all parties involved to exhibit clairvoyance?
Based on Sumwalt's resume, I am assuming that he asked those dumb questions on behalf of the uneducated public. Head off the rumor mill in advance. It's a good decision--those types don't circle back for the follow-up presentation/Q&A
@@pilotcritic The first question, when something like this happens, is: "What was the track record of the company? How safe were their operations prior to this? Could this have been foreseen?" It is expected for the NTSB to check the track record and report on it, so "There were no indications this operator was unsafe" simply tells us that the accident wasn't quite just waiting to happen.
The morning after the Buddy Holly crash, my dad introduced a term to me that has been my go to that I watch for - celebrityitus. The pressure, overt or not, to do what the famous person or boss wants forgetting that you are the PIC. Over the past 50 years I've upset many a celebrity or boss when I said no we're not flying right now and you can find another pilot but I'm not risking any lives for what "you" think is an important flight. It's just as deadly as gethomeitus and much more subtle. A very overt case was the Aaliyah crash of 2001.
Ara Zobayan, The copter pilot was no doubt the one that crashed the helicopter into the ground. However, we don’t know for sure what impact or influence Kobe Bryant and the other passengers had on the situation. We might figure that the pilot was reckless, but he could’ve been under pressure by any one of the passengers, egging him on.
@@Defender78 even if no one was egging him on, he felt the pressure to deliver for the celebrity or he might not be considered to be the favored pilot anymore.
A Qantas pilot once used a phrase, (and I'll link it it if I can find it), "Sorry about the delay to take off, but later I'm sure, you would rather be down here wishing you were up there, than up there wishing you were down here.
Spoke with a pilot once while in the Marines and he explained that at times his body "screams' that it's turning but the instruments are indicating that you are going straight.. Experience and time with the instruments are critical.
It must be so annoying to fly when your body is lying its face off to you, even more so when you know if you listened to your body you would likely die
@@JeepCherokeeful Not true whatsoever. More experience =/= wouldn't have died. This can happen to anyone at any time. Harrison Ford once landed on a taxiway instead of a runway and barely cleared an 82ft tail of a jetliner, and he has thousands of hours. Mistakes happen and people become disoriented regardless of their experience. More experience would lower the chance that they would have gotten in that position in the first place, but you could put any pilot in those same conditions and there is no guarantee at all that any of them would have come out of it.
Thank you for such a detailed analysis of this tragic accident. Years ago I experienced VFR into IMC in a fixed wing and was saved only by a passenger when she asked why we were turning. God bless you young lady for your abnormally keen inner ear.
Maybe we need some kind of alarm system for a steady banked turn, followed by the turn sharpening and loss of altitude? ... the false positives would be terrible...
Reading all these comments I'm realizing the way I read my instruments and fly is very different from how most people do. I always am referencing the artificial horizon, I don't level the plane visually by looking outside, but by looking at my instruments. I mostly ignore my sense of balance. I think this might be from playing around in flight sims a lot as a kid. Not sure.
@@lobsterbark I'd agree with you there. I used to play a lot of flight sims before I started real-world training (and still do a ton of flight simming). During my initial phases of training for my PPL, my instructor had to turn off the G1000's displays because I was referencing my instruments so much during VFR flight. It took a flight or two for him to get my head out of my instruments and start using visual cues for various VFR maneuvers.
This accident breaks my heart. Not just for all the loss of life, but because it didn’t have to happen. I am a major airline captain and am under no illusion that the term Bob Sumwalt used, SLOJ (sudden loss of judgement), can’t happen to me. We are all human and subject to the limitations of our beings. There is one guiding principle that I use in all my flying at all times - can my actions withstand scrutiny. In other words, if someone were to do a deep dive on every decision I make in the airplane can I adequately justify them. This slows down my thinking a little and forces me to have a plan for everything i do. I find that flying like this helps me avoid the SLOJ syndrome as Bob Sumwalt referenced.
SLOJ is an interesting term, but a flawed one. It presupposes that judgment is something that one possesses at baseline and that it can be easily lost. My thought would be that by nature we do not possess good judgment. In medicine we say good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment - which is more the norm for humans. This is similar to making moral judgments, a topic addressed well by Murray Kempton in an essay from the New York Review of Books in 1997. Basically, he regarded good judgment as "a virtue whose keeping depends upon constant care to protect it from takings by surprise". Essentially, morality - like judgment - needs to be carefully nurtured and safeguarded against our baser tendencies toward distraction, cowardice etc. Saying one "suddenly lost" judgment is rather akin to saying a man suddenly lost the ability to fly; the result may be the same in both cases, but the man never actually possessed either. Yes, in the proper frame of mind, it is possible for men to both exercise good judgment and fly aircraft. But that frame of mind is neither natural nor easily maintained. www.nybooks.com/articles/1997/06/12/once-aint-for-always/?lp_txn_id=1025428 Once Ain’t for Always Murray Kempton June 12, 1997 issue
I'm a bit dubious this well qualified pilot experienced spacial disorientation immediately after entering IMC. I think it far more likely he deliberately entered a left turn after his inadvertent encounter with IMC , then deliberatly entered a descending left turn in an attempt to regain VMC flight conditions as quickly as possible. Obviously the excessive descent rate and airspeed could have been the result of task saturation and tunnel vision. The overwhelming desire to regain VMC flight conditions quickly can easily cause such tunnel vision. I completely agree with the company's training manual guidelines. In an inadvertent IMC encounter, climb on present heading if possible if that avoids terrian, and confess your situation to ATC when safely able. In this case the pilot would have easily broke out on top, then diverted to an airport reporting more favorable weather conditions. I have never been a fan of scud running. Although I believe helicopters tend to do so much more routinely. My instincts have always been to climb, not descend in such circumstances. Clouds and their resultant zero visibility I can deal with. Terran and/or obstructions I can't see is the far greater threat to me when I don't know exactly where I am and what altitudes are safe.
@Robin Powers you would think so. But in reality spatial awareness is easily lost. RUclips other vids specifically talking about it. It’s the same concept that killed Ritchie Valenz, Buddy Holly, and the big bopper. If you were flying straight down, yes you’d feel it. But if you were flying say 30degrees down, your brain quickly gets used to the feeling. You will think you’re going straight but are not.
See that's why I never decided to become a professional pilot... your actions come under so much scrutiny never mind if you have an accident. I'm a summer weekend warrior pilot and boat captain but I always have a detailed plan before I go and sometimes I won't leave for whatever reason. Usually weather but equipment problems too. But a few times I've caught myself complacent both in boats and planes where I had to take immediate corrective action and boy howdy have I learned from those.
@@davidsine4390 I'm not a pilot but, the whole basis of full motion flight simulators is how easy it is to trick the brain / ear into think you are moving. From the bits of the report shown it sounds like the pilot didn't make an error of judgment once hitting IMC conditions, he had intended to climb out of them, but when asked to do an ident, took his eyes off the instruments and moved his head to locate the button to be pressed, which I would have thought would lead to spacial disorientation. My feeling is that simulator training for VFR into IMC should include a period of on full motion simulator with the view out of the "windows" showing cloudy conditions, rather than just wearing a hood, to give the pilot an appreciation of just how quickly they will become disorientated.
I remember being told 20 years ago by my flight and ground instructor - "a pilot MUST BE WILLING TO SAY NO GO TO BOTH CLIENTS AND OPERATORS!" I was also told he/she must also be prepared to quit on the spot to ensure safety of the passengers and aircraft. In the real world this of course is hard to do BUT it is a lesson I never forgot.
I’ve seen simulations on Kobe’s crash . He was descending and didn’t know . How could he not check his altitude ? I’m not a pilot I have no experience at all but I assume if someone is lost can’t see disoriented the first thing they would do is to check altitude ? Any thing you can tell me to she’d some light on this ? I would think when things seem fine a pilot would not check altitude but when a pilot is scared nervous wouldn’t the natural reaction to look how far you are from the ground ? Isn’t that the most important thing ? I can’t make sense of it
@@goyanks6350I believe pure animal instinct is mostly to blame. Imagine your body, balance, and sense of direction are all telling you one thing, but your instruments are going crazy. How much time do you have to ignore what your body is telling you in order to completely reassess the situation based on what your instruments are telling you? Or to put it a other way, you feel like you're sitting stationary and level, but your instruments are going wild. Instrument failure? It's tempting to trust your senses, and in a situation like that, you have only moments before it's fatal. The fact that the pilot was instrument rated goes to show how important it is to keep up with your training. It could have been prevented.
Once I was riding a 1100cc sport motorcycle at nite in the mountains. Came around a corner and hit fog, within a few seconds I had no idea how to ride a motorcycle. I immediately knew I had to stop or crash. Then the fog was gone as soon as it appeared. Scared the heck of me
Same happened to me once on a highway during peak of a clear and cold winter night. The highway passed trough a serie of hills so going up and down. Only in one of the down I entered suddently a thick fog that I didn't see coming and it took me some seconds to realise that I had to almost stop if I wanted to stay alive because I couldn't see anything past the engine hood. I was also afraid if I was to stop that cars behind or even trucks would pile me up. I drove at 10MPH for a moment luckily I was alone so nobody crashed me, and I existed the thick fog as quiqkly as I entered it. It's all about decisions you have to make to cope with the situation, a small error and you are toast.
I have been particularly interested in accidents like this one and the Kennedy Jr. accident because it almost happened to me once. I had departed KECP on an IFR flight plan and entered a thick overcast at about 500 feet AGL. I immediately became disoriented and vertiginous and my Bonanza quickly entered a classic left turning spiral dive. The astounding thing was as I stared at the panel I completely forgot how to recover and had no idea what my attitude was. I completely froze. Luckily I had set up my KFC200 autopilot right before takeoff; within about two seconds I recovered enough from the shock to hit the AP button; that simple action probably saved my life. I'm convinced that instilling an ability and willingness to use the autopilot in ALL student pilots would save lives.
Glenn - Would you be interested in sharing your story on ASI's "There I Was..." podcast? It's on iTunes if you want to hear an episode or two. Your story would be a good one to share.
It maybe easier said than done, but every pilot should have it drilled into them to stare at the altimeter and artificial horizon to the exclusion of EVERYTHING else when they suddenly lose VFR conditions. Worry about more complex stuff after you avoid rolling over and crashing.
I’m a 9000 hour ATP rated part 135 helicopter pilot, instructor and check airman. This was not what I would call a “good “ pilot, no matter how well regarded he was. This is not based on the fact that he crashed but on other testimonies of his scud running, getting trapped above an overcast and letting down off shore and proceeding to land at night with critically low fuel, several airspace incursions and the list goes on. This pilot not only thought this was ok, he bragged about it. He took pride in always “getting the job done” lack of instrument flying skills is a disease that has plagued the helicopter industry for too long and the FAA needs to do something.
I thought it was odd that there was only one pilot, considering the client’s wealth, and the fact that that helicopter type can support either one or two pilots. Two pilots means they can divide the workload in a challenging situation, and also help each other during normal situations. I know it’s considered perfectly safe with only one pilot, but if money is no object, then why not two pilots? And why not have them both be elite pilots who also regularly train on instruments? Seems like if a pilot has no instrument skills, they should take that into account and be ultra cautious around weather. (Also, he could have decreased his speed to the minimum needed, instead if continuing at 150 knots, in a hilly area, with no visibility and no active instrument skills. I know they cannot hover, but I’m sure they do not have to continue flying at maximum speed either. It would have bought him more time to think, and maybe turn around before he hit the foggy area.) I would have hired an expert helicopter pilot to help screen and interview and fly with the pilot applicants, until you wind up with a pool of 5 or 6 elite helicopter pilots that meet whatever the top standards are, and have great reputations (things that don’t appear on a resume or the FAA records, like local reputations for being too aggressive or reckless.) Then you have two of those pilots on every flight, and a backup luxury SUV and driver driving to the destination, in case the weather is bad by the time you want to leave, and you need to drive back. All of this would be very affordable to him. I’m not a pilot, but it sounds like common sense to hire only the very best pilots (two per flight,) if you can easily afford it. Just a very sad situation, Kobe had another 40 or 50 years left to do more great things, and all the other passengers also had their lives cut so short.
@@ThatOtherTom Really? That’s your expectation? That because someone has wealth, they go over the top and play privite investigator vetting everyone? You’re talking about a stricter policy than large companies who do the trade have. Guys like Kobe have agents/managers they task with finding what they want. I’m this instance a helicopter charter. Given the companies safety record, you can conclude they investigated their record, or simply got lucky. It’s a mistake however to just assume Kobe, or whomever he could have hired for your plan, would inherently raise the safety of flight. The pilot who crashed was an “expert” who checked and qualified others.
Never let anyone, anyone at all influence your no go decision. I made that mistake in my early 20s, with bad advice from my instructor. I had woken up, checked the weather, decided against a solo cross-country and called my instructor. For some reason, he told me to go for it. This was a retired Air Force instructor (he trained AF pilots back in the day). I encountered wind shear/microburst shortly after first leg touchdown, rolling out. Ended up with a bent prop. Probably lucky that was all I got.
MeesterVegas my instructor sent me on my solo cross country on a bad weather day. What did I know. I had to leave the plane at an alternate airport and call a buddy to come get me
@Karl with a K yeah, we can replace it with programming and sensor error any time now! We want our fatal accidents to be of the most high tech nature! And how do you figure "as always"? As always, excepting when it isn't? Planes crash from engine failure. They crash from bird strikes. They crash from many things. And a pilot making a mistake does not make them "incompetent". The very best Formula 1 drivers can make myself and end up crashing. Are you going to sit there and call these highly skilled people "incompetent" because they failed to do it perfectly?
I flew EMS helicopter for 28 years. I have more night scene calls (reduced visibility in close proximity to the ground) and more marginal VFR time than I can accurately recount. Over the years I have lost friends to similar scenarios as described above, and I have seen the same mechanism of progression in my own experience. It goes like this: 1) the pilot has either just taken off, or has slowed down because of reduced visibility; 2) the pilot has stability augmentation engaged but does not have the autopilot coupled; 3) the aircraft's avionics configuration has the communications radios on the console between the pilots and not on the instrument panel; 4) the pilot makes the decision to declare inadvertent IFR or to file IFR, and he bends forward and left, head down, to retune his communications radios; 5) the pilot raises his head, and, if still in VFR conditions, sees he has entered an unintentional descending right turn; or, alternatively, if now in IFR conditions, and if the pilot does not yet have a good instrument scan going and has not yet recognized the descending right turn, he will, as a matter of training, automatically pull back on the cyclic and increase collective in order to initiate a climb, and will, instead, unintentionally accelerate the descending right turn. I know this from my own experience and from the experience of fellow EMS helicopter pilots (the old living ones and a few dead ones). It has to do with sequence. What could he have done differently, after he realized he had painted himself into a corner? First, couple the aircraft. The S-76 has one of the finest autopilots ever designed and put in a helicopter. It will fly a pilot out of anything if he'll let it. Secondly, in coupled flight, initiate a climb. Thirdly, triple-check everything: the climb, the airspeed, the heading. Fourth, tune your radios and confess inadvertent IFR. Fifth, follow the instructions of Air Traffic Control. Sixth, let the autopilot fly the helicopter. This same accident has killed two good pilots I have known. Do not criticize the dead. These things can happen to anyone at any time, including you.
The one damning thing I read about this report was the LAPD did not fly that day due to low clouds/fog/poor visibility. The fact that the cops weren't flying that day should be grounds enough to tell your VIP prince/princess that its too dangerous to fly due to the weather.
Point taken, but operationally the LAPD didn't fly that day because it was against their fundamental charter -- they need to see the ground to see targets (people, cars, etc). The Sheriff's comment about not flying that day is therefore irrelevant to the Kobe case.
@@PaulGarthAviation You have a good point there, but I'm saying its a good way to kind of smooth things over with your VIP client, look these people aren't flying today because of the weather, so we aren't either.
If only medical 'accidents' were investigated in this manner. So many doctors and nurses make serious, sometimes fatal mistakes, yet go on to repeat these mistakes because no-one is analyzing them. My wife was one victim of such an avoidable error, fortunately not a fatal one. The aviation industry is to be commended for such diligent work.
When COVID first took off, I found myself home from work for about three or fours days' time and I became entranced with this accident. Learned a lot online about spatial disorientation and "get-there-itis"... made me respect the men and women even more who pilot our aircraft and in whom we place our trust daily. I was an aircraft mechanic years ago in the military and I remember always being told that the "warning" and "caution" labels in our publications were "written in blood" at the expense of someone else's misfortune.
Honestly, I wish covid-19 had been declared a pandemic in January. Because, if it had been, there would have been no reason for Kobe or any of them to take that flight because there would not have been a basketball game to go to. The irony there, a virus that took so many lives, could have actually saved his.
Paul, Great synopsis of the accident, I always enjoy your videos. I spent a number of years training military helicopter pilots IFR and VFR and one of the things I pushed upon my students (and other instructors) was that if you are encountering deteriorating weather in a auto pilot equipped aircraft you should couple up early so that if it comes time to turn around or commit to IFR the majority of the flying workload is handled by the aircraft. This allows the pilot extra bandwidth to ensure the aircraft is under control, avoid obstacles and coordinate with ATC. Pilots tend to pride themselves on their hand flying abilities but these are often overcome by IMC illusions especially with rapid onset IMC. Pilots need to be trained to let their egos go and use automation appropriately for the situation to ensure safe flight.
When you think about all the hard work that led to developping auto-pilots systems for helos, the price of such systms, the fact that the accident helo was equipped wit such system, but only the pilot didn't care to use it... things that makes you can hummmmm
Ive experienced “the leans” many times, both in GA flying and 757/767/777 ( particularly after a go-around) its a very powerful perception. Thank god for good pilot training. AV Web should be congratulated on these videos.
That is the whole point, your brain tells you one thing, you see another, and your brain believes itself. If you listen to final recordings of many fatal crashes, there often a moment of pilots questioning what they are seeing, then ignoring the problem because "it can't be that". Then moments before death, they acknowledge their messup....
Some pilots just don't have the expertise, skill levels, and some do. Some pass in the test, some excel in the test. Then there are some that don't perform well as expected in an emergency.
Humans are stupid. Like If you have ever stopped next to a vehicle then the other vehicle start moving your heart skips a beat thinking its your car that is moving. Stupid brain.
I would argue that this was not "SUDDEN" loss of judgement, rather it was "SLOW" loss of judgement. At the moment the pilot decided to punch out and get above the clouds, there was no other logical choice (well, I suppose he could have enabled the AP, but that is a choice that requires some thought.) In the heat of the moment, he was faced with being in the clouds any second, and needed to react- flying up and out was a very rapid fire decision, and IMHO not an improper judgement. I believe the actual lapse in judgement occurred soon after he took off- the weather deteriorating as the flight progressed, and slowly conditions beginning to make the flight difficult. The moment where he made his worst judgement call was when he asked for SVFR. This was done in a calculated fashion, and should have been the moment where he realized this could end up going badly.
I always tell my students that SVFR should only be used as a last resort for landing. If he had used that clearance to land at Van Nuys, 8 more people would be alive today.
I am glad you finally cleared up the gross misinformation out there that the flight was not justified in taking off in the first place. It was only during the flight that the conditions deteriorated.
IMO the pilot was influenced by the high level passenger. This tainted his judgment and caused him to make the trip when conditions were less than ideal. the fact he didn't fill out a plan B flight plan is also telling.
@@johnnymarbles6130 So I'm assuming you've never sped up in a vehicle with other people in the car, let alone your family? Same risk, if not worse. Human beings make bad judgment calls, especially when you have a presence like a Kobe Bryant behind your back. I"ll reiterate, I doubt that pilot wanted to die and cause the death of 8 others.
@@TheRed02151 He certainly didn’t want to die, but he was willing to be reckless because he thought he could handle it. The point is, we need to grow and learn from our mistakes. Tragic deaths occurred because someone wasn’t 100% present and aware of the situation. Accidents will always happen, it’s best for you and me if we do our best to learn from them.
Paul, speaking of root cause, I still don’t understand how a commercial operator in Southern California where rugged terrain is a permanent feature and marine layers are a typical part of a pilot’s day is not authorized to fly IFR. And how does an 8,577 hour helo pilot only have 50 hours in IFR? If my family was a customer, a minimum standard would be IFR authorized operations and flying on an IFR flight plan every time.
Charter wasn’t IFR certified. You should be able to figure out why they don’t want it....rigorous testing, certification, lots of money, expensive insurance etc. in other words, it’s much much cheaper to operate a vfr only charter.
I had the same thoughts. I think most agree that the ”always IFR” attitude has improved the safety of the commercial aviation. If this guy had the option of filing IFR he probably would have been on autopilot and never had a single issues.
@@Mrcaffinebean yeah. He didn’t have the option of taking off with a full ifr flight plan. He did the old “I’ll go take a peek at how bad the weather is.” Well, it was bad, worse than he thought and he couldn’t turn around. Tough to say what he would have done if he safely made it above the weather. He would have had to declare an emergency and get ifr vectors.
"Good pilots making bad decisions" reminds me of the Tenerife crash in 1977 that killed 583 people. That catastrophe was caused by the KLM pilot not making the right decisions in the face of numerous external circumstances he was apparently unprepared for, not the least of which was fog. Now, something most people probably don't know about him was he was KLM's #1 captain/pilot and had been with the company 27 years. He was literally the head of pilot training for KLM and was ALSO their poster boy (literally, again), and his image appeared in advertising and visual communications for the company. So revered was he as a pilot that company executives immediately looked for him to lead the investigation of the crash until they realized he was in it. The real problem is "It happens to the best of them" really isn't a comforting thought.
Everything you said is exactly right. Even about KLM trying to contact Captain Vanzanten (I'm sure I spelled his name wrong) to go and do the investigation without knowing he was the one who had been the captain of the crashed plane. And, as ironic as it seems, company safety policy played a huge roll in causing this accident. They (KLM pilots) were fast approaching the time limit of being on duty that once reached they would be required to take a lengthy break, stranding all the passengers. So, the captain took a gamble and done something he shouldn't have done. They had almost cleared the Pan Am plane, but, having taken on tons of extra fuel, it was too much weight to get off the ground in the space they had. Had they not taken on fuel, who knows what might have happened? Maybe they could have cleared the Pan Am plane with a few inches to spare. And as a testament as to how bad the fog was, the firefighters and rescue personnel were at the site of the KLM crashed plane and they didn't even know that there was the Pan Am plane on fire with survivors just a few yards away. They couldn't see it through the fog.. There was a string of events that led up to the saddest, worst disaster in aviation history. The girl who decided to stay on Tenneriffe Island is one of the luckiest people in the world.
@@jamesstreet228 I have to return the compliment and say everything you just said is exactly as I know it also. I've been fascinated by that particular accident for a long time and sometimes still have a hard time wrapping my brain around NUMEROUS decisions that were made that day.
@@jamesstreet228 Think of everything that can affect airport logistics going wrong and then add in two or three more that you'd never even think of. That was Tenerife.
Spatial Disorientation was the primary reason for my discontinuing flight training at KVGT. I love flying in fixed and rotary wing a/c however after my second episode I decided this is not going to happen as p-i-c. Even if I'd had the auto-pilot configured, I would not have been able to engage it as my body was getting heavier by the second and vision was pulling backwards into extreme tunnel vision which meant everything from instrument cluster and flight yoke were getting further and further away even though I didn't physically move. Once you are in spatial disorientation, you cannot transition to instrument flight because at that point, you cannot see or interpret the gauges, second you do not have the muscular strength or control to move the arms, and third you loose the ability to communicate. It is physically impossible. As I learned with both my experiences, the only option at that point is to relax the body, close the eyes, and drop your head to your chest and wait until the ears re-balance and you regain control. Luckily in both my instances, I had a training pilot from Nellis AFB in the right seat to take control otherwise I may not be here today.
I often wonder "if you know that you live would depend on it" would you not be able to cut the "seat-of-the pan" flying and oblige yourself to follow the instruments at ANY cost ? Seems to be a pretty good incentive to me, but I find scary that you could say it is impossible to make that shift once you have the spartial disorientation. Scary but I have no reason not to believe you.
@@12345fowler - While in a state of spatial disorientation, you cannot see the gauges let alone use them. It is an experience that is difficult to explain to one who has not experienced this sensation. Motor skills or rather the ability to control muscle movements during said event are lost, the arms become so heavy that they just fall to your side and you cannot lift them. Vision pulls away in a very long tunnel as such things which are physically just a foot or two in front of your face are now hundreds of feet away. There is a massive floating feeling to the brain which slows all brain functions to a crawl. While in a state of spatial disorientation, you are completely incapacitated. While in command of an aircraft that is not in auto-pilot, the result can end in crash and immediate death. This is why I stay on auto-pilot as much as possible because if spatial disorientation sets in during flight, the plane will continue to fly normally while my body recovers which can be 10-15 seconds to just under a minute after which the brain returns to normal. Spatial disorientation is not predictable nor is there a warning when it is about to happen. Once it occurs, you are along for the ride until you recover. Auto-pilot is a mans best friend and I strongly encourage its use. As for me back in 2002, there was an Air Force captain sitting beside me in the right seat. Once he realized what was happening to me, he immediately took control of a/c and returned to airport. I have never flown again as PIC since that last event. I still fly in fixed wing and especially helicopters but only with other pilots in control. I just sit back, watch and enjoy the ride with the ability to take control during an emergency should the need arise.
@@kingjames8283 Thanks. Myybe this is like a drunk thing. You try to make you best to stand up and walk and just can't because your senses do not work properly anymore.
@@12345fowler - And actually that is a really good analogy. In a drunken state you have loose control over senses and muscles. In vertigo, you have some control of muscles but not of senses. In spatial disorientation, you loose all control of senses and muscles. I have experienced all three so far in my life.
Yes, it's classical outcome bias. Sometimes good decisions, good rules, good company culture, good enforcement of standards, etc... lead to a negative outcome.
It has been a while since I was pilot in command but back when I had a navy pilot as a roommate I found out that there is a statistic that says that the accident rate for pilots as function of flight hours goes down to about 400 or 800 hours and then slowly increases with accumulated time. This comes about with the attitude " I am experienced enough, I can fly myself out of this situation." This attitude could be a part of SLOJ.
What strikes me was this pilot with thousands of hours had very few instrument hours. That worries me. Like a courier driver with several millions of miles but avoids driving at dusk. Vision issues???
@@nickv4073 When he was told to circle in the Burbank and Glendale area, they were already at the north edge of the LA metro region surrounded by mountains. It's time to land and get the group on a motorcade or even a bunch of Uber Blacks.
"One peek is worth a thousand crosschecks." Of our first IMC we all remember not being able to take a peek and almost immediately feeling the prerequisite vertigo. There is no substitute for being current and on top of our game.
It got me thinking that I wonder if something like a VR headset could be used when doing IFR training. It would be like a simulator but in the aircraft. You would see a virtual cockpit but you would be be virtually in IMC and those conditions could change with altitude so you could simulate an approach at minimums. You’re instructor could even fail one of your virtual gauges. Problem is I think the market is limited, any airplane that isn’t using a fully digital cockpit couldn’t use a headset like that. Perhaps in another 5-10 years there would compatible aircraft.
@@Mrcaffinebean No need for digital cockpits, just use a VR frontal camera and input its recording into a 3D mapped cockpit so any altered part of it maps precisely into the VR screen (e.g., different weather outside, certain instruments not working or giving faulty info), it's quite simple actually. Main issue with VR systems is that they are expensive (requiring the VR system itself and a relatively powerful computer) and maintain the issues current systems have about not portraying a real situation.
@@smeezer take VR system as VR piloting simulation system, which no onboard VR is powerful enough to do right now. Plus the cost is even higher for onboard VR.
Universal Studios Hollywood used to (may still have) a tram tour that would go through a long slow spinning tunnel that created the "Leans" illusion. As I recall, the inside of the tunnel was painted to look like it was carved out of ice (similar to flying through clouds). As you went through the tunnel you'd swear that the tram was rolling and going to flip over, but it exited before anyone could actually jump out or get sick. It's a very powerful illusion, and I can imagine that if you were in those tunnel like conditions for any real length of time, that you could easily succumb to it. Seemingly, hooded instrument training lacks the added visual miscues of the irregular shaped clouds going by making "flying instruments" all the more difficult, and perhaps in some cases impossible.
Same effect on the old StarWars ride at Disneyland. The ride vehicle would roll to the left as the projected wrap around film would roll right. I could have sworn the ride vehicle did a 360 degree axial roll.
I'm always reminded of the tricks the brain can pull when I'm in my vehicle sitting at a traffic light and the vehicle next to me begins to slowly inch forward and, for a couple seconds, I think I'm actually rolling backwards. My foot is already on the brake and yet I'm tripping out for a second like, "Why the hell am I rolling backwards!?" Luckily the illusion is broken within a couple seconds of looking around and realizing what's going on.
That StarWars ride illusion was great! I have motion sickness but was able to totally enjoy that ride because the complete 360 only seemed to take place but did not actually do so. Really curious about the Universal "lean" ride.
Paul, thanks for the presentation. I find the NTSB's obsession with the grammar of the final report versus making recommendations to the FAA that can actually save lives, unbelievable! Yes, getting the language correct in the final report is important but in the open forum hearing it gives the impression that language is more important then preventing these accidents in the future.
I'm not sure I would agree. Good, useful, helpful recommendations can only be derived if all are in agreement what had happened and how, and ambiguous language can easily lead to wrong conclusions. Let's not forget, based on that language, significant litigation will take place (to exact some "pound of flesh" out of those deemed responsible), which makes it ever more critical to get that grammar right.
@@vasicp You probably should have read my comments in their entirety. I said that getting the language correct is important but dont get lost in the weeds on those details and forget the more important aspect of the NTSB's charter from Congress to make specific, accurate and timely safety recommendations as a result of their accident investigations. In my opinion the NTSB has fallen short of their charter and needs to be re-focused in this effort.
Hes a bureaucrat. Obsessing over trivial matters that dont matter while ignoring what does matter, is what bureaucrats do best. See, bureaucrats arent experts, they RELY on the experts to tell them what is and isnt important. They used to listen to the experts, now, they listen to some study they read done by some University where no one is a pilot. Also, protecting BIG Business & the Federal Governent while holding small business and citizens accountable, is why bureaucrats are the enemy of a free people.
I love how the NTSB guy tried to paint the whole operation with one brush stroke. One incident does not equal an "unsafe operation." Here we are 20 years post 9/11 and people still board commercial airliners daily. Sometimes shit happens and the best thing to do is learn from it and push on...
EXACTLY what I thought...and this is the PROBLEM with FEDERAL BUREAUCRACIES, they are IN BED with the BIG BOYS, but small charter co's like this are evil and must be destroyed. Their hypocrisy and duplicity used to be something we would point at and laugh about. Unfortunately, its not funny anymore as these incompetent, useless, do-nothings are in CHARGE.
@@dezznutz3743 I don't know if it's anything as sordid as that. The guy reminded me of every bad private sector executive I've ever known, he just wanted to ask "tough" questions and seem like he cut through the BS, even if there was none. Possible there was a history between him and the investigator, possible it's motivated by having it out for small charter companies as you say, but more likely he is just flexing his authority and breaking balls for no reason.
My learnings from this debriefing: 1) someone needs to tell that administrator that his glasses are ridiculous and 2) the investigator wanted to spend as little time as possible on camera.
No. He was asking that question that way not to be passive aggressive (as many might have thought) rather he was purposefully guiding the expert to explain how it was in fact an accident. You have to be able to explain how a crash happens and if wasn't the machine or the company then it had to be human error which is an acceptable explanation that is needed for the record.
@@sauercrowderHis questionning was fair and logical. When you clearly state two apparent contradictory statements, and beeing called out righfully for that, that obliges you to develop more the underlaying facts that sustain thoes contradictory statements. He was in his role
It's sad, as you pointed out, the copter had the electronics on it, to keep them safe, but he thought he knew better, or was not experienced to use them.
I was on a 737 climbing out from LAX around the time of that crash. Visibility was fine below the ceiling but climbing into it, the winglets were about 40-50% obscured by the fog of that marine layer. So from within, visibility was about 150-200 feet, tops. Also, I don't think it went from 1500 ft to 2500 ft but rather extended 2500 ft from 1500, up to around 4000 ft. This is based on the time spent below vs in while climbing, and the appearance of the local geography, with only baldy, Whitney, and 2 or 3 other mountaintops visible above the weather. Had they stayed below the layer, there probably wouldn't have been a problem. Thing is the pass from Van Nuys to Calabasas would require flight above that altitude. They should have just set down at Van Nuys and called for ground transport. Would have been another 20-30 minutes to destination.
I just hope that the people inside the helicopter didn't know what was happening. I hope they weren't scared, and I hope it was instant. Such a terrible tragedy. Great video, thank you.
I am about 10 miles north of the crash site. The weather that day was unusual for this area. Stormy even. Very low dense black cloud cells that obscured the foothills. I can imagine adding coastal fog into the mix, closer to the ocean would have made for chaotic flying conditions. The area the crash occurred in is a series of narrow valleys running east to west and some going north to south. In some sections the valley walls are steep.
it sounds to me like they need to put pilots in a physical device that induces the leans so that they can have a deeper respect for how convincing it is.
@@randydicotti3975 that's why the need for a physical device - that exists in 3 dimensions, not 2. nasa uses machines like this for training astronauts.
It's enough for pilots to know the danger of spatial disorientation if the horizon is not visible. All aircraft should use technology to overcome this danger such as modern attitude gyros with large digital displays and/or aviation GPS.
@@tomszabo7350 There's no incentive to push these 'heli taxi service' companies to upgrade their helis. So, that's more of a regulation problem. But I still say this, u can have the best avionics that money can buy, but at the end of the day, nothing beats a responsible pilot.
If the passenger wasn’t Bryant this wouldn’t have even been a post. Everybody talks about how a pilot can be so enamored with a celebrity that it can affect his judgment, but look at how the public has reacted.
I was one of two passengers with an inexperienced pilot who flew a small plane into much worse conditions over the Bay Area. He did not have his instrument rating, so we'd agreed before the flight that anyone onboard could decide to abort at any time. I decided it was time to land before we turned west from I 5 but the pilot and other passenger refused to honor our previous agreement. By the time we hit zero visibility in Altamont pass it was too late. Based on what I heard here we are very lucky to be alive.
I listened to the audio and watched the video when all of this happened, and I counted 8 errors. Each error started a cascading effect with each additional error making it worse and occurring faster than the one before.
I know pilots roll their eyes at flight simmers who try to relate to actual flying but I was recently doing a VR flight and lost spatial awareness and it terrified me. I couldn't believe the direction I was actually going when it was too late. It all happened so quickly. There that's an average joe trying to relate to you absolute beats of the sky. I know you're not all military but I still feel like thanking you for your service. As a frequent world traveler, thank you for getting me around the world in one piece.
If a pilot with that many flight hours in total and that many hours on that type of aircraft can make such a mistake it is a wake up call for the rest of us.
He had very few IFR hours for his total time, and less than 10 hours in IMC. It's likely that he didn't like IMC flying, and that he was very rusty at it.
I live in Oxnard, probably about ten miles from the Camarillo airport. The other thing that kinda strikes me about this situation, is that he could have altered his route, flown along the shore and hung a right to get to KCAM past the low mountains/hills that are to the south. KCAM is roughly sea level, and he could have taken an extra twenty minutes to fly a safer route.
Excellent recap, Paul. Thanks for a great summary. Sad all the way around. We'll keep working on understanding why good pilots sometimes make bad decisions.
I have done some IMC simulation that was extremely realistic and I can vouch for how drastically different having zero reference is to simply having foggles or a hood on alone. In florida, we have the everglades where there are absolutely no lights or terrain defining marks and I went with my instructor at night with foggles on over the everglades. As soon as you passed the last defining road, it was 100% pitch blackness in my view and even having been flying "simulated IFR" for the previous 10 minutes, it was still a shock once all light references were gone. I even started a subconscious right hand turn soon after which I caught as my scan came around... I have 3 hours of flight in those conditions and it's something that could possibly save my life one day because normal daytime/night time over populated area simulated IFR does not prepare you at all for the real thing like featureless simulated IFR did. (for me, it was truly IFR). Flight simulators are also lacking the sound and kinetic feedback you get from the real aircraft.. You sudden learn the helicopter makes all sorts of weird vibrations and noises during turns and adjustments in flight attitude that you don't really pay attention to when you can see. Perhaps there are some advanced sims that can come close, but I think having real IFR experience is invaluable and landing the aircraft as soon as stuff starts to look sketchy, is an opportunity that should always be jumped at.
@@Mrcaffinebean Increasing the cost of Insurance DIRECTLY prohibits accidents? You must be either a teenager or a special level of stupid which doesnt understand how the real world works.
@@dezznutz3743 nope read my comment again..... slowly. Why is it that if flying IFR is objectively safer even in VFR conditions that insurance goes UP for an IFR operation? That my question and it’s not rhetorical. I would like like to understand that. It’s my belief this guy would’ve been safer had he been able to file IFR. So if it make him safer why is it costing more in insurance?
It reminds me of my own flying experience where I nearly got myself and three passengers killed. I was flying in bad weather, mountainous area, night time, and flying by the seat of my pants because I was not receiving VOR signals (before GPS). I was lucky to be only about 20 miles off course, but, if my engine has stopped in route, I would not be writing this note. I became a totally fair weather pilot after this incident. The relation to this incident is, do not fly VFR if you do not see where you are regardless of the urge to reach your destination. Land safely elsewhere, and fly another day.
Hi@Tom Gulbranson It’s a matter of semantics, I think. He’s guilty of controlled flight into terrain, i.e., lousy airmanship. In his case, guilty of manslaughter.
Ok we know Kobe and his daughter were the only ones that died no there were others but I guess it was only Kobe life that mattered I so damn tired of hearing poor Kobe let's say this we should feel the same sadness and lost for all that died.
You would be thinkin a bit much of the masses... people only care about those idols when they die not the others. like the other humans are actually just a sac of potatos in the way ? but hey what do people care
@@adotintheshark4848 and the NTSB wouldn't be making a donkey show of this for all to see. If only the public knew that they don't record all the data of flight involved accidents, that would help people know what a large portion of why certain things fail. Many accidents don't even get investigated if no loss of life or injury was reported.
16:30. “Is this what we believe happened?” I’m not one to speculate, but I believe NTSB is making a guess on what he was thinking...unless they downloaded his thoughts after the impact? The flight path flown is not consistent with the thought process that you think he thought.
Really, keep your eyes on the altimeter? Keeping your eyes on the altimeter (going down) and the airspeed (going up) is exactly what leads to many graveyard spirals. Attitude is the key. Attitude and power will fly the plane. So you look at the attitude indicator. From there you check your airspeed and return to the attitude indicator. You check the altimeter and return to the attitude indicator. And so on...
Yeah, pretty much. If your pilot isn't comfortable flying with instruments DONT FUCKING LICENCE HIM TO FLY PEOPLE AROUND. AS A MATTER IN FACT. HE OR SHE IS NOT ALLOWED TO FLY WITHOUT AN INSTRUCTER. JESUS. THIS WORLD IS TRYING SO HARD TO MOVE FOWARD THAT THE SAYING IS "1 STEP FOWARD 2 STEPS BACK" FUCKING INSANE LUNATICS BEHIND THE WHEEL... CMONNN! I'm not voting anymore either...
@N. Warner well put. I will add we could also avoid a Biden disaster. I did not vote for eather of them. the national debt is America's own tailspin. we are flying CSR (consumer spending rules) and we should be flying SMR (sound money rules)
I'm not a pilot, but being disoriented is a really scary feeling in cars, in snowstorms, underwater, etc. I can only imagine how quickly that could impair your ability to make decisions while trying to fly a helicopter. Not a position I want to ever be in.
No ones perfect. NO ONE. All the experience in the world can not and will not save you from your own limitations. Sadly most folks don't know what their limitations are until they reach them. Sounds like that happened here unfortunately. I sometimes suffer from panic attacks, it's sudden and without warning. It's taken me years to figure out how to overcome the worst of it's symptoms and still I'm not as prepared as I'd like to be when it hits me. This is my limitation being hit, I know it, I respect it and still I'm not always in as much control as I'd like to be. We as humans need to understand that we wont always be in control and plan as much as possible to be prepared for the worst. It wont always save our bacon, but it will at least give us a fighting chance.
I lived in LA for a while and had a job in Avalon on Catalina that required me to take a helicoptor flight twice a week. Our charter pilots never messed around with the marine layer. Even over open water. I remember one particular time getting ready to lift off in sketchy conditions and being nervous and then he just set it back down and said let's go get breakfast and we'll see if this burns off. I was secretly grateful. You just never know.
When I was learning and I first heard about IMC disorientation I asked my instructor to "keep me safe" while I closed my eyes and tried feeling what was happening as I flew a helicopter (in VFR). I kept talking all the time to inform him what I was feeling and how I was going to react. What he told me afterwards was "eye-opening"!!! After about 30 seconds, when I thought I was going left when I was going right, I thought I climbing when I was descending! I got almost everything wrong. Never trust the seat of your pants in cloud!!! Flying with instruments is a bit easier - you just have to override what you feel by what the instruments are telling you. Trust what you see, not what you feel.
I was in a VFR flight on a perfectly clear day in LA when the marine layer dropped in FAST! I was 10 miles off the coast doing stall training and was absolutely lost right away. I hadn't had my IFR test done yet but did my best to use my little training and X-plane playing to get me through it. I basically used my artificial horizon and compass as well as a patient and helpful center controller to get through to Torrance Airport where the visibility was good enough to land without instruments. It was scary and when I heard about the Kobe crash it was the first memory that came too me. Its so easy to lose situational awareness and your body doesn't even feel that you're in a seriously high degree bank or nose diving. Its insane.
Nowhere in this video do they mention he circled Van Nuys for 5+ minutes and and knew he was in trouble. He crashed cause he had a celeb on board and was not going to say "no".
Interesting points about the inner ear. My own experiences with disorientation is standing on something very elevated without your hands holding onto anything. Close your eyes at that point and feel what it does to your balance.
Good analysis Paul. While I agree with the NTSB that the pressure to complete the mission might have been self induced or internal, I see no reason to discount the possibility of a great amount of external pressure from the rich guy paying the bills sitting in the back. After all, who had more of a reason to suffer from a desire to get there, to complete the flight? The pilot was only making the trip because the customer wanted to go. Bryant and his passengers were the ones who wanted to go there. I'm sure he did not want to disappoint his daughter or other passengers. Embarrassment. Ego. Desire to please. Desire not to disappoint. All could have been at play, and likely was. Yes, the pilot has the final say, final authority, but it would not be the first time that the person writing the check pushed a pilot to make a bad decision. This does not excuse the pilot's severe lack of judgment or his inability to just say no, but to ignore or discount the possible role of a demanding passenger is being naïve. I guess many folks just do not want to be seen as blaming the "victim" especially a celebrity.
Also, those criticizing Chairman Sumwalt should know that he is an ATP with 12,000+ hours of flight time and several type ratings. Plus it is his job to ask probing questions and even challenge the assertions of other board members.
The pilots decision came from an attitude - as shown in a comment below - he had a track record of this so yes the presenting problem was this split second decision however that decision was part of a pattern showing an attitude to 'get the job done on time' or 'fly the mission' . Esp continuing at 140k when the weather closed in + not having a plan B. Attitudes are VERY hard to change - in my experience. cheers thx for this detailed well presented doco. ciao paul
The main issue to me is how/why this very experienced pilot wasn't able to handle VFR-to-IMC, especially when he intentionally initiated the climb so knew ahead of time that he would soon be in IMC. That would also be the time to turn on the autopilot. Yes, a chain of poor decisions leading up to that, but I still don't "get" why he wasn't able to handle the IMC especially since he had a very good autopilot.
And at 140KTS, it’s a quick climb above the layer. If you are gonna be dumb and fly into the soup that damn fast, might as well use it to your advantage to get above it. LA marine layers are not very thick. He could have been above it in just a few short minutes with the decreasing climb speed.
i was navy helo pilot. we do a lot more ifr in helos and get in/out of inadvertant ifr and jumping on the instruments more often. i also flew fairly often wth other-service helo pilots with lots of vfr/svfr time but annual mins instrument time. the difference in reaction time and comfort at trusting the gages was noticeable. leans can get you quick and if you haven’t been on the instruments to the point that is your FIRST reaction at entering inadvertant ifr, well, like this gent, you become another teaching point for the living.
Excellent point, well said. Instrument flying is an acquired skill, not a natural one, and can quickly degrade without regular practice and experience. The accident pilot's actual instrument time was paltry, even for flying in a fair-weather region like Southern California.
wow...."We should all like the idea of crashing into hillsides a lot less...." those with big (or even small) egos should let that wisdom reverberate in their heads a bit before going flying in soup, no matter who's in back. Well said, Sir Paul!
Hi, Paul, thank you for this video, and all the others you've produced. Per news articles, in 2015, this pilot did have an infraction of ingressing Class B airspace at LAX when the airfield was below VFR conditions. There has not been much filling out the details, e.g. was it a revenue VIP flight. One might extrapolate if the pilot was repeating the same decision chain in 2020 as he did in the 2015 incident. I wonder if that could be a factor for NTSB Chairman Sumwalt to wondering if Island Express was a bad operator, twice is a habit. On the matter of various pressures placed by VIPs, or by operators not choosing IFR operation certification, from my comfy non flying chair, it seem obvious that a limit is a limit. That's my summary for all the hair-splitting if avionics or FAA procedures can create an escape path for a pilot's inadvertent adventure into IMC. The NTSB meeting shed light that a formula exists for escaping the soup, the expectation is the pilot is monitoring avionics already in VFR helicopters, that the formula was built upon. I don't personally know how powerful is the urge to ignore flight gauges and accept the inner ear as truth, or ignore ATC's request like ident, when attempting to disentangle a very tangled flying situation. How does the obviously wordy passenger agreement form (from any operator) call out canceling departure due to pilot decision, in-flight decisions leading to terminating the flight safely, alternate destinations, etc? There may well be a standard "Landing is mandatory, everything else is optional" clause in the agreement, but in the world of VIP travel, maybe that steak don't sizzle. "Thank you for landing safely not at my destination, I won't use you or your company in the future." Cheers!
The fact that his VIP client was in the helicopter perhaps weighed into his decision to proceed. Sometimes we think we can't say no to important people, and we have to make it happen for them. Just a thought.
This tragedy is 100% at the hands of the helicopter pilot. The captain of any ship, wether it is an airplane, helicopter, or maritime ship, he or she is fully responsible. The captain has full control of all decisions on every aspect of the flight, not ATC, not anyone else. This guy made terribly bad decisions that killed eight people.
Even if you only drive a car and that for over 3 decades, like myself, you're going to make an occasional mistake and have to break suddenly or miss time a traffic light. I presume that's the same for a pilot, but my vehicle is not going to be over a thousand feet in the air, when I make that error But I do hope I won't be traveling that fast
You just saved me 4 hours of listening to NTSB chair people try to sound intelligent. Thank you Paul!
I often joke that the FAA hires people that got fired from every job they held in the private sector. Now I think the NTSB hires people that were fired from the FAA.
"There were no indications this operator was unsafe."
"So I see a disconnect here. This company had a crash and you're saying there were no indications they were unsafe."
So the NTSB Chairman expects all parties involved to exhibit clairvoyance?
Based on Sumwalt's resume, I am assuming that he asked those dumb questions on behalf of the uneducated public. Head off the rumor mill in advance. It's a good decision--those types don't circle back for the follow-up presentation/Q&A
@@johnsteinberg8540 Good insight!
@@pilotcritic The first question, when something like this happens, is: "What was the track record of the company? How safe were their operations prior to this? Could this have been foreseen?" It is expected for the NTSB to check the track record and report on it, so "There were no indications this operator was unsafe" simply tells us that the accident wasn't quite just waiting to happen.
The morning after the Buddy Holly crash, my dad introduced a term to me that has been my go to that I watch for - celebrityitus. The pressure, overt or not, to do what the famous person or boss wants forgetting that you are the PIC. Over the past 50 years I've upset many a celebrity or boss when I said no we're not flying right now and you can find another pilot but I'm not risking any lives for what "you" think is an important flight. It's just as deadly as gethomeitus and much more subtle. A very overt case was the Aaliyah crash of 2001.
Ara Zobayan, The copter pilot was no doubt the one that crashed the helicopter into the ground. However, we don’t know for sure what impact or influence Kobe Bryant and the other passengers had on the situation. We might figure that the pilot was reckless, but he could’ve been under pressure by any one of the passengers, egging him on.
I am a truck driver and I've been influenced by dispatch many times to push through bad weather.
@@Defender78 even if no one was egging him on, he felt the pressure to deliver for the celebrity or he might not be considered to be the favored pilot anymore.
Don’t take a helicopter to basketball practice
A Qantas pilot once used a phrase, (and I'll link it it if I can find it), "Sorry about the delay to take off, but later I'm sure, you would rather be down here wishing you were up there, than up there wishing you were down here.
Spoke with a pilot once while in the Marines and he explained that at times his body "screams' that it's turning but the instruments are indicating that you are going straight.. Experience and time with the instruments are critical.
It must be so annoying to fly when your body is lying its face off to you, even more so when you know if you listened to your body you would likely die
like civilian fixed wing, civilian rotary pilots have limited experience in adverse conditions. A more “experienced” pilot wouldn’t have crashed.
@@JeepCherokeeful Not true whatsoever. More experience =/= wouldn't have died. This can happen to anyone at any time. Harrison Ford once landed on a taxiway instead of a runway and barely cleared an 82ft tail of a jetliner, and he has thousands of hours. Mistakes happen and people become disoriented regardless of their experience. More experience would lower the chance that they would have gotten in that position in the first place, but you could put any pilot in those same conditions and there is no guarantee at all that any of them would have come out of it.
@@s5aShadow01 ok, leave the all the retired Warrant Officers for me;)
@Michelle Rodriquez ur welcome
Thank you for such a detailed analysis of this tragic accident. Years ago I experienced VFR into IMC in a fixed wing and was saved only by a passenger when she asked why we were turning. God bless you young lady for your abnormally keen inner ear.
VFR into IMC, sometimes you just don’t realize it’s even happening. Yes that young lady saved some lives that day
Maybe we need some kind of alarm system for a steady banked turn, followed by the turn sharpening and loss of altitude?
... the false positives would be terrible...
@@KaneYork "bank angle, bank angle" "sink rate, sink rate" "too low, terrain"
Reading all these comments I'm realizing the way I read my instruments and fly is very different from how most people do. I always am referencing the artificial horizon, I don't level the plane visually by looking outside, but by looking at my instruments. I mostly ignore my sense of balance. I think this might be from playing around in flight sims a lot as a kid. Not sure.
@@lobsterbark I'd agree with you there. I used to play a lot of flight sims before I started real-world training (and still do a ton of flight simming). During my initial phases of training for my PPL, my instructor had to turn off the G1000's displays because I was referencing my instruments so much during VFR flight. It took a flight or two for him to get my head out of my instruments and start using visual cues for various VFR maneuvers.
This accident breaks my heart. Not just for all the loss of life, but because it didn’t have to happen.
I am a major airline captain and am under no illusion that the term Bob Sumwalt used, SLOJ (sudden loss of judgement), can’t happen to me. We are all human and subject to the limitations of our beings. There is one guiding principle that I use in all my flying at all times - can my actions withstand scrutiny. In other words, if someone were to do a deep dive on every decision I make in the airplane can I adequately justify them. This slows down my thinking a little and forces me to have a plan for everything i do. I find that flying like this helps me avoid the SLOJ syndrome as Bob Sumwalt referenced.
SLOJ is an interesting term, but a flawed one. It presupposes that judgment is something that one possesses at baseline and that it can be easily lost. My thought would be that by nature we do not possess good judgment. In medicine we say good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment - which is more the norm for humans. This is similar to making moral judgments, a topic addressed well by Murray Kempton in an essay from the New York Review of Books in 1997. Basically, he regarded good judgment as "a virtue whose keeping depends upon constant care to protect it from takings by surprise". Essentially, morality - like judgment - needs to be carefully nurtured and safeguarded against our baser tendencies toward distraction, cowardice etc. Saying one "suddenly lost" judgment is rather akin to saying a man suddenly lost the ability to fly; the result may be the same in both cases, but the man never actually possessed either. Yes, in the proper frame of mind, it is possible for men to both exercise good judgment and fly aircraft. But that frame of mind is neither natural nor easily maintained.
www.nybooks.com/articles/1997/06/12/once-aint-for-always/?lp_txn_id=1025428
Once Ain’t for Always
Murray Kempton
June 12, 1997 issue
I'm a bit dubious this well qualified pilot experienced spacial disorientation immediately after entering IMC. I think it far more likely he deliberately entered a left turn after his inadvertent encounter with IMC , then deliberatly entered a descending left turn in an attempt to regain VMC flight conditions as quickly as possible. Obviously the excessive descent rate and airspeed could have been the result of task saturation and tunnel vision. The overwhelming desire to regain VMC flight conditions quickly can easily cause such tunnel vision. I completely agree with the company's training manual guidelines. In an inadvertent IMC encounter, climb on present heading if possible if that avoids terrian, and confess your situation to ATC when safely able. In this case the pilot would have easily broke out on top, then diverted to an airport reporting more favorable weather conditions. I have never been a fan of scud running. Although I believe helicopters tend to do so much more routinely. My instincts have always been to climb, not descend in such circumstances. Clouds and their resultant zero visibility I can deal with. Terran and/or obstructions I can't see is the far greater threat to me when I don't know exactly where I am and what altitudes are safe.
@Robin Powers you would think so. But in reality spatial awareness is easily lost. RUclips other vids specifically talking about it. It’s the same concept that killed Ritchie Valenz, Buddy Holly, and the big bopper. If you were flying straight down, yes you’d feel it. But if you were flying say 30degrees down, your brain quickly gets used to the feeling. You will think you’re going straight but are not.
See that's why I never decided to become a professional pilot... your actions come under so much scrutiny never mind if you have an accident. I'm a summer weekend warrior pilot and boat captain but I always have a detailed plan before I go and sometimes I won't leave for whatever reason. Usually weather but equipment problems too. But a few times I've caught myself complacent both in boats and planes where I had to take immediate corrective action and boy howdy have I learned from those.
@@davidsine4390 I'm not a pilot but, the whole basis of full motion flight simulators is how easy it is to trick the brain / ear into think you are moving.
From the bits of the report shown it sounds like the pilot didn't make an error of judgment once hitting IMC conditions, he had intended to climb out of them, but when asked to do an ident, took his eyes off the instruments and moved his head to locate the button to be pressed, which I would have thought would lead to spacial disorientation.
My feeling is that simulator training for VFR into IMC should include a period of on full motion simulator with the view out of the "windows" showing cloudy conditions, rather than just wearing a hood, to give the pilot an appreciation of just how quickly they will become disorientated.
I remember being told 20 years ago by my flight and ground instructor - "a pilot MUST BE WILLING TO SAY NO GO TO BOTH CLIENTS AND OPERATORS!" I was also told he/she must also be prepared to quit on the spot to ensure safety of the passengers and aircraft. In the real world this of course is hard to do BUT it is a lesson I never forgot.
I’ve seen simulations on Kobe’s crash . He was descending and didn’t know . How could he not check his altitude ? I’m not a pilot I have no experience at all but I assume if someone is lost can’t see disoriented the first thing they would do is to check altitude ? Any thing you can tell me to she’d some light on this ? I would think when things seem fine a pilot would not check altitude but when a pilot is scared nervous wouldn’t the natural reaction to look how far you are from the ground ? Isn’t that the most important thing ? I can’t make sense of it
Seems like Kobe’s helicopter company had no problem saying no, because they have a history of cancelling Kobe flights in the past.
@@goyanks6350I believe pure animal instinct is mostly to blame. Imagine your body, balance, and sense of direction are all telling you one thing, but your instruments are going crazy. How much time do you have to ignore what your body is telling you in order to completely reassess the situation based on what your instruments are telling you?
Or to put it a other way, you feel like you're sitting stationary and level, but your instruments are going wild. Instrument failure? It's tempting to trust your senses, and in a situation like that, you have only moments before it's fatal.
The fact that the pilot was instrument rated goes to show how important it is to keep up with your training. It could have been prevented.
Had to quit two Alaska flying jobs while applying this rule -"just say NO" I was amazed at what the chief pilot asked... in the interest of revenue.
Once I was riding a 1100cc sport motorcycle at nite in the mountains. Came around a corner and hit fog, within a few seconds I had no idea how to ride a motorcycle. I immediately knew I had to stop or crash. Then the fog was gone as soon as it appeared. Scared the heck of me
Same happened to me once on a highway during peak of a clear and cold winter night. The highway passed trough a serie of hills so going up and down. Only in one of the down I entered suddently a thick fog that I didn't see coming and it took me some seconds to realise that I had to almost stop if I wanted to stay alive because I couldn't see anything past the engine hood. I was also afraid if I was to stop that cars behind or even trucks would pile me up. I drove at 10MPH for a moment luckily I was alone so nobody crashed me, and I existed the thick fog as quiqkly as I entered it. It's all about decisions you have to make to cope with the situation, a small error and you are toast.
@@12345fowler fog is scary. I imagine 1000x more so in a helicopter
There'll be very thick fog the next day after UFO landed, normally.
I’d rather fly a plane in fog than drive
@@Jopanaguiton car u can pull off and cancel the trip.
I have been particularly interested in accidents like this one and the Kennedy Jr. accident because it almost happened to me once. I had departed KECP on an IFR flight plan and entered a thick overcast at about 500 feet AGL. I immediately became disoriented and vertiginous and my Bonanza quickly entered a classic left turning spiral dive. The astounding thing was as I stared at the panel I completely forgot how to recover and had no idea what my attitude was. I completely froze. Luckily I had set up my KFC200 autopilot right before takeoff; within about two seconds I recovered enough from the shock to hit the AP button; that simple action probably saved my life. I'm convinced that instilling an ability and willingness to use the autopilot in ALL student pilots would save lives.
Nice. Scary but nice.
I flew out of KECP for around 6 years. Crazy seeing it here.
Glenn - Would you be interested in sharing your story on ASI's "There I Was..." podcast? It's on iTunes if you want to hear an episode or two. Your story would be a good one to share.
It maybe easier said than done, but every pilot should have it drilled into them to stare at the altimeter and artificial horizon to the exclusion of EVERYTHING else when they suddenly lose VFR conditions. Worry about more complex stuff after you avoid rolling over and crashing.
@@member5488 JFK jr
I’m a 9000 hour ATP rated part 135 helicopter pilot, instructor and check airman. This was not what I would call a “good “ pilot, no matter how well regarded he was. This is not based on the fact that he crashed but on other testimonies of his scud running, getting trapped above an overcast and letting down off shore and proceeding to land at night with critically low fuel, several airspace incursions and the list goes on. This pilot not only thought this was ok, he bragged about it. He took pride in always “getting the job done” lack of instrument flying skills is a disease that has plagued the helicopter industry for too long and the FAA needs to do something.
I thought it was odd that there was only one pilot, considering the client’s wealth, and the fact that that helicopter type can support either one or two pilots. Two pilots means they can divide the workload in a challenging situation, and also help each other during normal situations. I know it’s considered perfectly safe with only one pilot, but if money is no object, then why not two pilots? And why not have them both be elite pilots who also regularly train on instruments?
Seems like if a pilot has no instrument skills, they should take that into account and be ultra cautious around weather. (Also, he could have decreased his speed to the minimum needed, instead if continuing at 150 knots, in a hilly area, with no visibility and no active instrument skills. I know they cannot hover, but I’m sure they do not have to continue flying at maximum speed either. It would have bought him more time to think, and maybe turn around before he hit the foggy area.)
I would have hired an expert helicopter pilot to help screen and interview and fly with the pilot applicants, until you wind up with a pool of 5 or 6 elite helicopter pilots that meet whatever the top standards are, and have great reputations (things that don’t appear on a resume or the FAA records, like local reputations for being too aggressive or reckless.) Then you have two of those pilots on every flight, and a backup luxury SUV and driver driving to the destination, in case the weather is bad by the time you want to leave, and you need to drive back. All of this would be very affordable to him.
I’m not a pilot, but it sounds like common sense to hire only the very best pilots (two per flight,) if you can easily afford it. Just a very sad situation, Kobe had another 40 or 50 years left to do more great things, and all the other passengers also had their lives cut so short.
never heard the guy was a jackass
"several airspace incursions" midairs happen
Can you give me a pointer to the source you got those testimonies about the pilot from?
@@ThatOtherTom Really? That’s your expectation? That because someone has wealth, they go over the top and play privite investigator vetting everyone? You’re talking about a stricter policy than large companies who do the trade have.
Guys like Kobe have agents/managers they task with finding what they want. I’m this instance a helicopter charter. Given the companies safety record, you can conclude they investigated their record, or simply got lucky.
It’s a mistake however to just assume Kobe, or whomever he could have hired for your plan, would inherently raise the safety of flight. The pilot who crashed was an “expert” who checked and qualified others.
Never let anyone, anyone at all influence your no go decision. I made that mistake in my early 20s, with bad advice from my instructor. I had woken up, checked the weather, decided against a solo cross-country and called my instructor. For some reason, he told me to go for it. This was a retired Air Force instructor (he trained AF pilots back in the day). I encountered wind shear/microburst shortly after first leg touchdown, rolling out. Ended up with a bent prop. Probably lucky that was all I got.
MeesterVegas my instructor sent me on my solo cross country on a bad weather day. What did I know. I had to leave the plane at an alternate airport and call a buddy to come get me
That weather changes in a heartbeat is why everyone should be instrument rated. Jmo
@Karl with a K yeah, we can replace it with programming and sensor error any time now! We want our fatal accidents to be of the most high tech nature!
And how do you figure "as always"? As always, excepting when it isn't? Planes crash from engine failure. They crash from bird strikes. They crash from many things. And a pilot making a mistake does not make them "incompetent". The very best Formula 1 drivers can make myself and end up crashing. Are you going to sit there and call these highly skilled people "incompetent" because they failed to do it perfectly?
@@justforever96no but you try and pass the buck to the passenger instead of the incompetent pilot.
I flew EMS helicopter for 28 years. I have more night scene calls (reduced visibility in close proximity to the ground) and more marginal VFR time than I can accurately recount. Over the years I have lost friends to similar scenarios as described above, and I have seen the same mechanism of progression in my own experience. It goes like this:
1) the pilot has either just taken off, or has slowed down because of reduced visibility; 2) the pilot has stability augmentation engaged but does not have the autopilot coupled; 3) the aircraft's avionics configuration has the communications radios on the console between the pilots and not on the instrument panel; 4) the pilot makes the decision to declare inadvertent IFR or to file IFR, and he bends forward and left, head down, to retune his communications radios; 5) the pilot raises his head, and, if still in VFR conditions, sees he has entered an unintentional descending right turn; or, alternatively, if now in IFR conditions, and if the pilot does not yet have a good instrument scan going and has not yet recognized the descending right turn, he will, as a matter of training, automatically pull back on the cyclic and increase collective in order to initiate a climb, and will, instead, unintentionally accelerate the descending right turn. I know this from my own experience and from the experience of fellow EMS helicopter pilots (the old living ones and a few dead ones).
It has to do with sequence. What could he have done differently, after he realized he had painted himself into a corner?
First, couple the aircraft. The S-76 has one of the finest autopilots ever designed and put in a helicopter. It will fly a pilot out of anything if he'll let it.
Secondly, in coupled flight, initiate a climb.
Thirdly, triple-check everything: the climb, the airspeed, the heading.
Fourth, tune your radios and confess inadvertent IFR.
Fifth, follow the instructions of Air Traffic Control.
Sixth, let the autopilot fly the helicopter.
This same accident has killed two good pilots I have known.
Do not criticize the dead.
These things can happen to anyone at any time, including you.
Great analysis
Seven, and most important, Prepare yourself mentally BEFOREHAND for the possibility/likelihood that you will experience spatial disorientation.
which is essentially what Ken Cox stated: "These things can happen to anyone at any time, including you.".
Thanks Ken.
One of the best comments I've seen here.
The one damning thing I read about this report was the LAPD did not fly that day due to low clouds/fog/poor visibility. The fact that the cops weren't flying that day should be grounds enough to tell your VIP prince/princess that its too dangerous to fly due to the weather.
Point taken, but operationally the LAPD didn't fly that day because it was against their fundamental charter -- they need to see the ground to see targets (people, cars, etc). The Sheriff's comment about not flying that day is therefore irrelevant to the Kobe case.
@@PaulGarthAviation
You have a good point there, but I'm saying its a good way to kind of smooth things over with your VIP client, look these people aren't flying today because of the weather, so we aren't either.
Whether the LAPD was flying or not is inconsequential, you do know how far LA is from Santa rosa and the crash site.
@@mountjoy23 Santa Rosa is in Northern CA, the crash was in Southern CA. There is zero correlation as to how far it is from LA.
@@2whl4re Apologies, you're correct.
If only medical 'accidents' were investigated in this manner. So many doctors and nurses make serious, sometimes fatal mistakes, yet go on to repeat these mistakes because no-one is analyzing them. My wife was one victim of such an avoidable error, fortunately not a fatal one. The aviation industry is to be commended for such diligent work.
When COVID first took off, I found myself home from work for about three or fours days' time and I became entranced with this accident. Learned a lot online about spatial disorientation and "get-there-itis"... made me respect the men and women even more who pilot our aircraft and in whom we place our trust daily. I was an aircraft mechanic years ago in the military and I remember always being told that the "warning" and "caution" labels in our publications were "written in blood" at the expense of someone else's misfortune.
Honestly, I wish covid-19 had been declared a pandemic in January. Because, if it had been, there would have been no reason for Kobe or any of them to take that flight because there would not have been a basketball game to go to. The irony there, a virus that took so many lives, could have actually saved his.
RIP Kobe and Gianna
Paul, Great synopsis of the accident, I always enjoy your videos. I spent a number of years training military helicopter pilots IFR and VFR and one of the things I pushed upon my students (and other instructors) was that if you are encountering deteriorating weather in a auto pilot equipped aircraft you should couple up early so that if it comes time to turn around or commit to IFR the majority of the flying workload is handled by the aircraft. This allows the pilot extra bandwidth to ensure the aircraft is under control, avoid obstacles and coordinate with ATC. Pilots tend to pride themselves on their hand flying abilities but these are often overcome by IMC illusions especially with rapid onset IMC. Pilots need to be trained to let their egos go and use automation appropriately for the situation to ensure safe flight.
When you think about all the hard work that led to developping auto-pilots systems for helos, the price of such systms, the fact that the accident helo was equipped wit such system, but only the pilot didn't care to use it... things that makes you can hummmmm
Ive experienced “the leans” many times, both in GA flying and 757/767/777 ( particularly after a go-around) its a very powerful perception. Thank god for good pilot training.
AV Web should be congratulated on these videos.
i dont see how a pilot with so many hours wouldnt look at the artificial horizon when entering fog.
False sense of security. You get complacent, you get dead.
That is the whole point, your brain tells you one thing, you see another, and your brain believes itself.
If you listen to final recordings of many fatal crashes, there often a moment of pilots questioning what they are seeing, then ignoring the problem because "it can't be that". Then moments before death, they acknowledge their messup....
Reversed survivor bias. You never hear about all the pilots that enter VMC and do look at their instruments.
@@MoonLiteNite In many of my classes I remind pilots that denial is not a river in Egypt and anyone can do it.
The artificial horizon wouldn't have saved them; he flew into a hill.
Humans make mistakes every day. It will happen again, sadly.
Some pilots just don't have the expertise, skill levels, and some do. Some pass in the test, some excel in the test. Then there are some that don't perform well as expected in an emergency.
Humans are stupid. Like If you have ever stopped next to a vehicle then the other vehicle start moving your heart skips a beat thinking its your car that is moving. Stupid brain.
I would argue that this was not "SUDDEN" loss of judgement, rather it was "SLOW" loss of judgement. At the moment the pilot decided to punch out and get above the clouds, there was no other logical choice (well, I suppose he could have enabled the AP, but that is a choice that requires some thought.) In the heat of the moment, he was faced with being in the clouds any second, and needed to react- flying up and out was a very rapid fire decision, and IMHO not an improper judgement. I believe the actual lapse in judgement occurred soon after he took off- the weather deteriorating as the flight progressed, and slowly conditions beginning to make the flight difficult. The moment where he made his worst judgement call was when he asked for SVFR. This was done in a calculated fashion, and should have been the moment where he realized this could end up going badly.
I always tell my students that SVFR should only be used as a last resort for landing. If he had used that clearance to land at Van Nuys, 8 more people would be alive today.
For a bit over 17 minutes this video moves right along. I congratulate you for what is pretty much a flawless video of its type.
Good job Paul. The more hours we put under our belt the more we need to be careful of complacency.
I am glad you finally cleared up the gross misinformation out there that the flight was not justified in taking off in the first place. It was only during the flight that the conditions deteriorated.
IMO the pilot was influenced by the high level passenger. This tainted his judgment and caused him to make the trip when conditions were less than ideal. the fact he didn't fill out a plan B flight plan is also telling.
Cut the Pilot some slack. HE'S DEAD NOW! He had a family, children, a life. I'm sure he didn't want to die.
@@TheRed02151 when lives are in your hands you get zero slack. 8 family's lost members for a pilots hubris.
@@johnnymarbles6130 So I'm assuming you've never sped up in a vehicle with other people in the car, let alone your family? Same risk, if not worse. Human beings make bad judgment calls, especially when you have a presence like a Kobe Bryant behind your back. I"ll reiterate, I doubt that pilot wanted to die and cause the death of 8 others.
@@TheRed02151 I have weed in the car I NEVER speed, thank you.
@@TheRed02151 He certainly didn’t want to die, but he was willing to be reckless because he thought he could handle it. The point is, we need to grow and learn from our mistakes. Tragic deaths occurred because someone wasn’t 100% present and aware of the situation. Accidents will always happen, it’s best for you and me if we do our best to learn from them.
Paul, speaking of root cause, I still don’t understand how a commercial operator in Southern California where rugged terrain is a permanent feature and marine layers are a typical part of a pilot’s day is not authorized to fly IFR. And how does an 8,577 hour helo pilot only have 50 hours in IFR? If my family was a customer, a minimum standard would be IFR authorized operations and flying on an IFR flight plan every time.
Charter wasn’t IFR certified. You should be able to figure out why they don’t want it....rigorous testing, certification, lots of money, expensive insurance etc. in other words, it’s much much cheaper to operate a vfr only charter.
I had the same thoughts. I think most agree that the ”always IFR” attitude has improved the safety of the commercial aviation. If this guy had the option of filing IFR he probably would have been on autopilot and never had a single issues.
@@Mrcaffinebean yeah. He didn’t have the option of taking off with a full ifr flight plan. He did the old “I’ll go take a peek at how bad the weather is.” Well, it was bad, worse than he thought and he couldn’t turn around. Tough to say what he would have done if he safely made it above the weather. He would have had to declare an emergency and get ifr vectors.
@@Debkghtulvkfjkjfxjjcj yeah it’s pretty sad that a private pilot taking off that day had more safe options available to them than this pilot did.
@@Mrcaffinebean that’s a false statement.
"Good pilots making bad decisions" reminds me of the Tenerife crash in 1977 that killed 583 people. That catastrophe was caused by the KLM pilot not making the right decisions in the face of numerous external circumstances he was apparently unprepared for, not the least of which was fog.
Now, something most people probably don't know about him was he was KLM's #1 captain/pilot and had been with the company 27 years. He was literally the head of pilot training for KLM and was ALSO their poster boy (literally, again), and his image appeared in advertising and visual communications for the company. So revered was he as a pilot that company executives immediately looked for him to lead the investigation of the crash until they realized he was in it.
The real problem is "It happens to the best of them" really isn't a comforting thought.
Everything you said is exactly right. Even about KLM trying to contact Captain Vanzanten (I'm sure I spelled his name wrong) to go and do the investigation without knowing he was the one who had been the captain of the crashed plane. And, as ironic as it seems, company safety policy played a huge roll in causing this accident. They (KLM pilots) were fast approaching the time limit of being on duty that once reached they would be required to take a lengthy break, stranding all the passengers. So, the captain took a gamble and done something he shouldn't have done. They had almost cleared the Pan Am plane, but, having taken on tons of extra fuel, it was too much weight to get off the ground in the space they had. Had they not taken on fuel, who knows what might have happened? Maybe they could have cleared the Pan Am plane with a few inches to spare. And as a testament as to how bad the fog was, the firefighters and rescue personnel were at the site of the KLM crashed plane and they didn't even know that there was the Pan Am plane on fire with survivors just a few yards away. They couldn't see it through the fog.. There was a string of events that led up to the saddest, worst disaster in aviation history. The girl who decided to stay on Tenneriffe Island is one of the luckiest people in the world.
@@jamesstreet228 I have to return the compliment and say everything you just said is exactly as I know it also.
I've been fascinated by that particular accident for a long time and sometimes still have a hard time wrapping my brain around NUMEROUS decisions that were made that day.
@@jamesstreet228 Think of everything that can affect airport logistics going wrong and then add in two or three more that you'd never even think of. That was Tenerife.
Informative and level-headed reporting as always. Good job Paul!
Spatial Disorientation was the primary reason for my discontinuing flight training at KVGT. I love flying in fixed and rotary wing a/c however after my second episode I decided this is not going to happen as p-i-c. Even if I'd had the auto-pilot configured, I would not have been able to engage it as my body was getting heavier by the second and vision was pulling backwards into extreme tunnel vision which meant everything from instrument cluster and flight yoke were getting further and further away even though I didn't physically move. Once you are in spatial disorientation, you cannot transition to instrument flight because at that point, you cannot see or interpret the gauges, second you do not have the muscular strength or control to move the arms, and third you loose the ability to communicate. It is physically impossible. As I learned with both my experiences, the only option at that point is to relax the body, close the eyes, and drop your head to your chest and wait until the ears re-balance and you regain control. Luckily in both my instances, I had a training pilot from Nellis AFB in the right seat to take control otherwise I may not be here today.
I often wonder "if you know that you live would depend on it" would you not be able to cut the "seat-of-the pan" flying and oblige yourself to follow the instruments at ANY cost ? Seems to be a pretty good incentive to me, but I find scary that you could say it is impossible to make that shift once you have the spartial disorientation. Scary but I have no reason not to believe you.
@@12345fowler - While in a state of spatial disorientation, you cannot see the gauges let alone use them. It is an experience that is difficult to explain to one who has not experienced this sensation. Motor skills or rather the ability to control muscle movements during said event are lost, the arms become so heavy that they just fall to your side and you cannot lift them. Vision pulls away in a very long tunnel as such things which are physically just a foot or two in front of your face are now hundreds of feet away. There is a massive floating feeling to the brain which slows all brain functions to a crawl. While in a state of spatial disorientation, you are completely incapacitated. While in command of an aircraft that is not in auto-pilot, the result can end in crash and immediate death. This is why I stay on auto-pilot as much as possible because if spatial disorientation sets in during flight, the plane will continue to fly normally while my body recovers which can be 10-15 seconds to just under a minute after which the brain returns to normal. Spatial disorientation is not predictable nor is there a warning when it is about to happen. Once it occurs, you are along for the ride until you recover. Auto-pilot is a mans best friend and I strongly encourage its use. As for me back in 2002, there was an Air Force captain sitting beside me in the right seat. Once he realized what was happening to me, he immediately took control of a/c and returned to airport. I have never flown again as PIC since that last event. I still fly in fixed wing and especially helicopters but only with other pilots in control. I just sit back, watch and enjoy the ride with the ability to take control during an emergency should the need arise.
@@kingjames8283 Thanks. Myybe this is like a drunk thing. You try to make you best to stand up and walk and just can't because your senses do not work properly anymore.
@@12345fowler - And actually that is a really good analogy. In a drunken state you have loose control over senses and muscles. In vertigo, you have some control of muscles but not of senses. In spatial disorientation, you loose all control of senses and muscles. I have experienced all three so far in my life.
@@kingjames8283 that sounds terrifying.
14:33 classic difference between dropping a lawn dart on a predetermined target and dropping a lawn dart and then painting a target around it.
Yes, it's classical outcome bias. Sometimes good decisions, good rules, good company culture, good enforcement of standards, etc... lead to a negative outcome.
that guy & his questioning was as cool as AIDS
I wonder if he is a pilot. He has ascended to the top of the NTSB, but that was a dumb statement.
According to this chairman, all operators are dangerous, and therefore the only way for safe operation is no operation at all.
@@mattbasford6299 he did note at some point in that long ass video he is/was an Airbus ATP pilot.
@7:30 It's so heartbreaking that all Ayra the pilot had to do was hit the autopilot to help him out during the climb in the clouds. Smh
What does the auto pilot button do though???
It has been a while since I was pilot in command but back when I had a navy pilot as a roommate I found out that there is a statistic that says that the accident rate for pilots as function of flight hours goes down to about 400 or 800 hours and then slowly increases with accumulated time. This comes about with the attitude " I am experienced enough, I can fly myself out of this situation." This attitude could be a part of SLOJ.
What strikes me was this pilot with thousands of hours had very few instrument hours. That worries me. Like a courier driver with several millions of miles but avoids driving at dusk. Vision issues???
The fact that he had to circle around for 15 minutes would be a 1st warning to return back
No it isn't.
@@nickv4073 When he was told to circle in the Burbank and Glendale area, they were already at the north edge of the LA metro region surrounded by mountains. It's time to land and get the group on a motorcade or even a bunch of Uber Blacks.
"One peek is worth a thousand crosschecks." Of our first IMC we all remember not being able to take a peek and almost immediately feeling the prerequisite vertigo. There is no substitute for being current and on top of our game.
It got me thinking that I wonder if something like a VR headset could be used when doing IFR training. It would be like a simulator but in the aircraft. You would see a virtual cockpit but you would be be virtually in IMC and those conditions could change with altitude so you could simulate an approach at minimums. You’re instructor could even fail one of your virtual gauges.
Problem is I think the market is limited, any airplane that isn’t using a fully digital cockpit couldn’t use a headset like that. Perhaps in another 5-10 years there would compatible aircraft.
@@Mrcaffinebean No need for digital cockpits, just use a VR frontal camera and input its recording into a 3D mapped cockpit so any altered part of it maps precisely into the VR screen (e.g., different weather outside, certain instruments not working or giving faulty info), it's quite simple actually.
Main issue with VR systems is that they are expensive (requiring the VR system itself and a relatively powerful computer) and maintain the issues current systems have about not portraying a real situation.
@@ferko28 That is not entirely correct. Occulus quest 2, for example, does not require an external computer.
@@smeezer take VR system as VR piloting simulation system, which no onboard VR is powerful enough to do right now. Plus the cost is even higher for onboard VR.
Universal Studios Hollywood used to (may still have) a tram tour that would go through a long slow spinning tunnel that created the "Leans" illusion. As I recall, the inside of the tunnel was painted to look like it was carved out of ice (similar to flying through clouds). As you went through the tunnel you'd swear that the tram was rolling and going to flip over, but it exited before anyone could actually jump out or get sick. It's a very powerful illusion, and I can imagine that if you were in those tunnel like conditions for any real length of time, that you could easily succumb to it. Seemingly, hooded instrument training lacks the added visual miscues of the irregular shaped clouds going by making "flying instruments" all the more difficult, and perhaps in some cases impossible.
Yes! I remember that. I was on that ride a couple of times and one time, I looked at the passengers behind me at they were all leaning!
Same effect on the old StarWars ride at Disneyland. The ride vehicle would roll to the left as the projected wrap around film would roll right. I could have sworn the ride vehicle did a 360 degree axial roll.
Ha! I remember being on that ride in 1976 during a family trip to California!
I'm always reminded of the tricks the brain can pull when I'm in my vehicle sitting at a traffic light and the vehicle next to me begins to slowly inch forward and, for a couple seconds, I think I'm actually rolling backwards. My foot is already on the brake and yet I'm tripping out for a second like, "Why the hell am I rolling backwards!?" Luckily the illusion is broken within a couple seconds of looking around and realizing what's going on.
That StarWars ride illusion was great! I have motion sickness but was able to totally enjoy that ride because the complete 360 only seemed to take place but did not actually do so.
Really curious about the Universal "lean" ride.
Paul, thanks for the presentation. I find the NTSB's obsession with the grammar of the final report versus making recommendations to the FAA that can actually save lives, unbelievable!
Yes, getting the language correct in the final report is important but in the open forum hearing it gives the impression that language is more important then preventing these accidents in the future.
I'm not sure I would agree. Good, useful, helpful recommendations can only be derived if all are in agreement what had happened and how, and ambiguous language can easily lead to wrong conclusions.
Let's not forget, based on that language, significant litigation will take place (to exact some "pound of flesh" out of those deemed responsible), which makes it ever more critical to get that grammar right.
@@vasicp You probably should have read my comments in their entirety. I said that getting the language correct is important but dont get lost in the weeds on those details and forget the more important aspect of the NTSB's charter from Congress to make specific, accurate and timely safety recommendations as a result of their accident investigations. In my opinion the NTSB has fallen short of their charter and needs to be re-focused in this effort.
Hes a bureaucrat. Obsessing over trivial matters that dont matter while ignoring what does matter, is what bureaucrats do best.
See, bureaucrats arent experts, they RELY on the experts to tell them what is and isnt important. They used to listen to the experts, now, they listen to some study they read done by some University where no one is a pilot.
Also, protecting BIG Business & the Federal Governent while holding small business and citizens accountable, is why bureaucrats are the enemy of a free people.
@@dezznutz3743LMFAO
I love how the NTSB guy tried to paint the whole operation with one brush stroke. One incident does not equal an "unsafe operation." Here we are 20 years post 9/11 and people still board commercial airliners daily. Sometimes shit happens and the best thing to do is learn from it and push on...
EXACTLY what I thought...and this is the PROBLEM with FEDERAL BUREAUCRACIES, they are IN BED with the BIG BOYS, but small charter co's like this are evil and must be destroyed.
Their hypocrisy and duplicity used to be something we would point at and laugh about. Unfortunately, its not funny anymore as these incompetent, useless, do-nothings are in CHARGE.
@@dezznutz3743 I don't know if it's anything as sordid as that. The guy reminded me of every bad private sector executive I've ever known, he just wanted to ask "tough" questions and seem like he cut through the BS, even if there was none. Possible there was a history between him and the investigator, possible it's motivated by having it out for small charter companies as you say, but more likely he is just flexing his authority and breaking balls for no reason.
My learnings from this debriefing: 1) someone needs to tell that administrator that his glasses are ridiculous and 2) the investigator wanted to spend as little time as possible on camera.
No. He was asking that question that way not to be passive aggressive (as many might have thought) rather he was purposefully guiding the expert to explain how it was in fact an accident. You have to be able to explain how a crash happens and if wasn't the machine or the company then it had to be human error which is an acceptable explanation that is needed for the record.
@@sauercrowderHis questionning was fair and logical. When you clearly state two apparent contradictory statements, and beeing called out righfully for that, that obliges you to develop more the underlaying facts that sustain thoes contradictory statements. He was in his role
It's sad, as you pointed out, the copter had the electronics on it, to keep them safe, but he thought he knew better, or was not experienced to use them.
I was on a 737 climbing out from LAX around the time of that crash. Visibility was fine below the ceiling but climbing into it, the winglets were about 40-50% obscured by the fog of that marine layer. So from within, visibility was about 150-200 feet, tops. Also, I don't think it went from 1500 ft to 2500 ft but rather extended 2500 ft from 1500, up to around 4000 ft. This is based on the time spent below vs in while climbing, and the appearance of the local geography, with only baldy, Whitney, and 2 or 3 other mountaintops visible above the weather.
Had they stayed below the layer, there probably wouldn't have been a problem. Thing is the pass from Van Nuys to Calabasas would require flight above that altitude. They should have just set down at Van Nuys and called for ground transport. Would have been another 20-30 minutes to destination.
I am much better educated on this crash than before I watched your video. That was 17 minutes of my time very well spent!
I just hope that the people inside the helicopter didn't know what was happening. I hope they weren't scared, and I hope it was instant. Such a terrible tragedy. Great video, thank you.
GOOD VIDEO. Thank you for a well researched, factual, and non-biased approach at sharing the information.
I am about 10 miles north of the crash site. The weather that day was unusual for this area. Stormy even. Very low dense black cloud cells that obscured the foothills. I can imagine adding coastal fog into the mix, closer to the ocean would have made for chaotic flying conditions. The area the crash occurred in is a series of narrow valleys running east to west and some going north to south. In some sections the valley walls are steep.
Situational awareness and risk assessment/management.
it sounds to me like they need to put pilots in a physical device that induces the leans so that they can have a deeper respect for how convincing it is.
It is rather difficult to simulate the disorientation possible in 3D space.....utilizing 2D space.
@@randydicotti3975 that's why the need for a physical device - that exists in 3 dimensions, not 2. nasa uses machines like this for training astronauts.
@@Kamel419 THe USN also introduces these spatial disorientation illusions to all it's flight candidates...
It's enough for pilots to know the danger of spatial disorientation if the horizon is not visible. All aircraft should use technology to overcome this danger such as modern attitude gyros with large digital displays and/or aviation GPS.
@@tomszabo7350 There's no incentive to push these 'heli taxi service' companies to upgrade their helis.
So, that's more of a regulation problem.
But I still say this, u can have the best avionics that money can buy, but at the end of the day, nothing beats a responsible pilot.
If the passenger wasn’t Bryant this wouldn’t have even been a post. Everybody talks about how a pilot can be so enamored with a celebrity that it can affect his judgment, but look at how the public has reacted.
Well i dont know even if it was 9 unknown people I think it would make the news, and be investigated.
I was one of two passengers with an inexperienced pilot who flew a small plane into much worse conditions over the Bay Area. He did not have his instrument rating, so we'd agreed before the flight that anyone onboard could decide to abort at any time. I decided it was time to land before we turned west from I 5 but the pilot and other passenger refused to honor our previous agreement. By the time we hit zero visibility in Altamont pass it was too late. Based on what I heard here we are very lucky to be alive.
Well said.
Making a beeline toward Livermore only needs altitude unless I-580 is a security blanket to some pilots.
The descending when you think you’re climbing thing is scary. Likely what caused Buddy Holly’s crash too
that's why you gotta trust your instruments not your inner ear
the snow
I listened to the audio and watched the video when all of this happened, and I counted 8 errors. Each error started a cascading effect with each additional error making it worse and occurring faster than the one before.
Plan Continuation Bias.
I'm going to add that to my mental list of biases.
Something many unhappy marriages that should not continue succumb to...
Plan Continuation Bias = you NEVER "need to be" somewhere. Crew or Passenger words to live by.
👍🏻
I know pilots roll their eyes at flight simmers who try to relate to actual flying but I was recently doing a VR flight and lost spatial awareness and it terrified me. I couldn't believe the direction I was actually going when it was too late. It all happened so quickly. There that's an average joe trying to relate to you absolute beats of the sky. I know you're not all military but I still feel like thanking you for your service. As a frequent world traveler, thank you for getting me around the world in one piece.
Absolutely tragic... no other words can describe it...... damnnnnn
If a pilot with that many flight hours in total and that many hours on that type of aircraft can make such a mistake it is a wake up call for the rest of us.
He had very few IFR hours for his total time, and less than 10 hours in IMC. It's likely that he didn't like IMC flying, and that he was very rusty at it.
Outstanding review! Great job and thank you, Paul.
Another fantastic video, Paul. You always seem to hit the mark, and I appreciate your analysis on this one.
I live in Oxnard, probably about ten miles from the Camarillo airport. The other thing that kinda strikes me about this situation, is that he could have altered his route, flown along the shore and hung a right to get to KCAM past the low mountains/hills that are to the south. KCAM is roughly sea level, and he could have taken an extra twenty minutes to fly a safer route.
Learn something new every day. Today, for me, it's SLOJ (sudden loss of judgement), I'll keep that in mind while doing anything complex
This was awesome ! Thank you so much for all the details ands providing consideration to those who are not pilots or in the aviation industry.
Excellent recap, Paul. Thanks for a great summary. Sad all the way around. We'll keep working on understanding why good pilots sometimes make bad decisions.
I have done some IMC simulation that was extremely realistic and I can vouch for how drastically different having zero reference is to simply having foggles or a hood on alone. In florida, we have the everglades where there are absolutely no lights or terrain defining marks and I went with my instructor at night with foggles on over the everglades. As soon as you passed the last defining road, it was 100% pitch blackness in my view and even having been flying "simulated IFR" for the previous 10 minutes, it was still a shock once all light references were gone. I even started a subconscious right hand turn soon after which I caught as my scan came around... I have 3 hours of flight in those conditions and it's something that could possibly save my life one day because normal daytime/night time over populated area simulated IFR does not prepare you at all for the real thing like featureless simulated IFR did. (for me, it was truly IFR).
Flight simulators are also lacking the sound and kinetic feedback you get from the real aircraft.. You sudden learn the helicopter makes all sorts of weird vibrations and noises during turns and adjustments in flight attitude that you don't really pay attention to when you can see. Perhaps there are some advanced sims that can come close, but I think having real IFR experience is invaluable and landing the aircraft as soon as stuff starts to look sketchy, is an opportunity that should always be jumped at.
Each time I keep thinking about that day, I still don't get it. Is it that no one in the chopper could notice they were heading for the terrain?
Your analysis is appreciated. Thank you.
This is scary, drop your guard just once and it can really cost you.
How about the FAA doesn't make it prohibitively expensive to run an IFR operation!!!
Perhaps it's insurance costs, too.
@@garymartin9777 why is the insurance more if it could prevent accidents such as these.
@@Mrcaffinebean Increasing the cost of Insurance DIRECTLY prohibits accidents? You must be either a teenager or a special level of stupid which doesnt understand how the real world works.
@@dezznutz3743 nope read my comment again..... slowly. Why is it that if flying IFR is objectively safer even in VFR conditions that insurance goes UP for an IFR operation? That my question and it’s not rhetorical. I would like like to understand that.
It’s my belief this guy would’ve been safer had he been able to file IFR. So if it make him safer why is it costing more in insurance?
It reminds me of my own flying experience where I nearly got myself and three passengers killed. I was flying in bad weather, mountainous area, night time, and flying by the seat of my pants because I was not receiving VOR signals (before GPS). I was lucky to be only about 20 miles off course, but, if my engine has stopped in route, I would not be writing this note. I became a totally fair weather pilot after this incident. The relation to this incident is, do not fly VFR if you do not see where you are regardless of the urge to reach your destination. Land safely elsewhere, and fly another day.
He didn’t “crash into the hillside.” He flew into the hillside,
Yeah he couldn't see
Hi@Tom Gulbranson
It’s a matter of semantics, I think. He’s guilty of controlled flight into terrain, i.e., lousy airmanship. In his case, guilty of manslaughter.
A cascading series of events is the term that most appropriately describes the ensuing tragic results. RIP all.
Ok we know Kobe and his daughter were the only ones that died no there were others but I guess it was only Kobe life that mattered I so damn tired of hearing poor Kobe let's say this we should feel the same sadness and lost for all that died.
You would be thinkin a bit much of the masses... people only care about those idols when they die not the others. like the other humans are actually just a sac of potatos in the way ? but hey what do people care
If it makes you feel better, I don't really care about any of them.
CLM Celebrity Lives Matter
Seriously, if Kobe weren't on the copter this crash wouldn't have been news at all.
@@adotintheshark4848 and the NTSB wouldn't be making a donkey show of this for all to see. If only the public knew that they don't record all the data of flight involved accidents, that would help people know what a large portion of why certain things fail. Many accidents don't even get investigated if no loss of life or injury was reported.
Thank you for wording this in a comprehendable way for someone not educated in anything to do with flying.
Good pilots never fly in bad weather. Researching weather conditions prior to take off is key.
16:30. “Is this what we believe happened?” I’m not one to speculate, but I believe NTSB is making a guess on what he was thinking...unless they downloaded his thoughts after the impact? The flight path flown is not consistent with the thought process that you think he thought.
13:55 "A crater looking for a grid reference." Yikes.
Dang. This all could've been avoided. Quite tragic that it happened this way for us to learn and be better.
Moral of the story is: when you find yourself flying into IMC, keep your damned eyes on the altimeter and believe it !
Quite - this is a good video but I just keep thinking about the altimeter.
And your attitude indicator. Most VFR into IMC accidents happen due to overbanking developing into a spiral dive.
Really, keep your eyes on the altimeter? Keeping your eyes on the altimeter (going down) and the airspeed (going up) is exactly what leads to many graveyard spirals.
Attitude is the key.
Attitude and power will fly the plane.
So you look at the attitude indicator. From there you check your airspeed and return to the attitude indicator. You check the altimeter and return to the attitude indicator. And so on...
Yeah, pretty much.
If your pilot isn't comfortable flying with instruments DONT FUCKING LICENCE HIM TO FLY PEOPLE AROUND. AS A MATTER IN FACT. HE OR SHE IS NOT ALLOWED TO FLY WITHOUT AN INSTRUCTER. JESUS. THIS WORLD IS TRYING SO HARD TO MOVE FOWARD THAT THE SAYING IS
"1 STEP FOWARD 2 STEPS BACK" FUCKING INSANE LUNATICS BEHIND THE WHEEL... CMONNN!
I'm not voting anymore either...
@N. Warner well put. I will add we could also avoid a Biden disaster. I did not vote for eather of them. the national debt is America's own tailspin. we are flying CSR (consumer spending rules) and we should be flying SMR (sound money rules)
I'm not a pilot, but being disoriented is a really scary feeling in cars, in snowstorms, underwater, etc. I can only imagine how quickly that could impair your ability to make decisions while trying to fly a helicopter. Not a position I want to ever be in.
Well said.
No ones perfect. NO ONE. All the experience in the world can not and will not save you from your own limitations. Sadly most folks don't know what their limitations are until they reach them. Sounds like that happened here unfortunately. I sometimes suffer from panic attacks, it's sudden and without warning. It's taken me years to figure out how to overcome the worst of it's symptoms and still I'm not as prepared as I'd like to be when it hits me. This is my limitation being hit, I know it, I respect it and still I'm not always in as much control as I'd like to be. We as humans need to understand that we wont always be in control and plan as much as possible to be prepared for the worst. It wont always save our bacon, but it will at least give us a fighting chance.
Your vary good at explaining the problem and what should be done.And hope it doesn’t happen again.👍👍
Continued VFR into IMC - we all need to learn from this so it will never happen again
in addition to not being at ESA with rising terrain in area......
I lived in LA for a while and had a job in Avalon on Catalina that required me to take a helicoptor flight twice a week.
Our charter pilots never messed around with the marine layer. Even over open water. I remember one particular time getting ready to lift off in sketchy conditions and being nervous and then he just set it back down and said let's go get breakfast and we'll see if this burns off. I was secretly grateful. You just never know.
From what I gathered the pilot flew into the clouds ,with the rising terrain and cloud ceiling he had to know he was going to be in the clouds
When I was learning and I first heard about IMC disorientation I asked my instructor to "keep me safe" while I closed my eyes and tried feeling what was happening as I flew a helicopter (in VFR).
I kept talking all the time to inform him what I was feeling and how I was going to react. What he told me afterwards was "eye-opening"!!! After about 30 seconds, when I thought I was going left when I was going right, I thought I climbing when I was descending! I got almost everything wrong. Never trust the seat of your pants in cloud!!!
Flying with instruments is a bit easier - you just have to override what you feel by what the instruments are telling you. Trust what you see, not what you feel.
All ways trust your instruments..
This is a really well made video. Thank you for putting this together
I was in a VFR flight on a perfectly clear day in LA when the marine layer dropped in FAST! I was 10 miles off the coast doing stall training and was absolutely lost right away. I hadn't had my IFR test done yet but did my best to use my little training and X-plane playing to get me through it. I basically used my artificial horizon and compass as well as a patient and helpful center controller to get through to Torrance Airport where the visibility was good enough to land without instruments. It was scary and when I heard about the Kobe crash it was the first memory that came too me. Its so easy to lose situational awareness and your body doesn't even feel that you're in a seriously high degree bank or nose diving. Its insane.
I do remember a pilot telling me a helicopter is an accident waiting to happen.
Nowhere in this video do they mention he circled Van Nuys for 5+ minutes and and knew he was in trouble. He crashed cause he had a celeb on board and was not going to say "no".
Interesting points about the inner ear. My own experiences with disorientation is standing on something very elevated without your hands holding onto anything. Close your eyes at that point and feel what it does to your balance.
Good analysis Paul.
While I agree with the NTSB that the pressure to complete the mission might have been self induced or internal, I see no reason to discount the possibility of a great amount of external pressure from the rich guy paying the bills sitting in the back. After all, who had more of a reason to suffer from a desire to get there, to complete the flight? The pilot was only making the trip because the customer wanted to go. Bryant and his passengers were the ones who wanted to go there. I'm sure he did not want to disappoint his daughter or other passengers. Embarrassment. Ego. Desire to please. Desire not to disappoint. All could have been at play, and likely was. Yes, the pilot has the final say, final authority, but it would not be the first time that the person writing the check pushed a pilot to make a bad decision. This does not excuse the pilot's severe lack of judgment or his inability to just say no, but to ignore or discount the possible role of a demanding passenger is being naïve. I guess many folks just do not want to be seen as blaming the "victim" especially a celebrity.
Also, those criticizing Chairman Sumwalt should know that he is an ATP with 12,000+ hours of flight time and several type ratings. Plus it is his job to ask probing questions and even challenge the assertions of other board members.
“Demanding passenger” key words.
@@PuppyDogPilot I don't care if he has 40k hours, his line of questioning at 14:30 is asinine.
@@roflchopter11 Yes
The pilots decision came from an attitude - as shown in a comment below - he had a track record of this so yes the presenting problem was this split second decision however that decision was part of a pattern showing an attitude to 'get the job done on time' or 'fly the mission' . Esp continuing at 140k when the weather closed in + not having a plan B. Attitudes are VERY hard to change - in my experience. cheers thx for this detailed well presented doco. ciao paul
The main issue to me is how/why this very experienced pilot wasn't able to handle VFR-to-IMC, especially when he intentionally initiated the climb so knew ahead of time that he would soon be in IMC. That would also be the time to turn on the autopilot. Yes, a chain of poor decisions leading up to that, but I still don't "get" why he wasn't able to handle the IMC especially since he had a very good autopilot.
And at 140KTS, it’s a quick climb above the layer. If you are gonna be dumb and fly into the soup that damn fast, might as well use it to your advantage to get above it. LA marine layers are not very thick. He could have been above it in just a few short minutes with the decreasing climb speed.
He probably was already in vertigous condition when he initiated the climb, and lost it altogether when the heli took a dive with the left turn.
i was navy helo pilot. we do a lot more ifr in helos and get in/out of inadvertant ifr and jumping on the instruments more often. i also flew fairly often wth other-service helo pilots with lots of vfr/svfr time but annual mins instrument time. the difference in reaction time and comfort at trusting the gages was noticeable. leans can get you quick and if you haven’t been on the instruments to the point that is your FIRST reaction at entering inadvertant ifr, well, like this gent, you become another teaching point for the living.
Excellent point, well said. Instrument flying is an acquired skill, not a natural one, and can quickly degrade without regular practice and experience. The accident pilot's actual instrument time was paltry, even for flying in a fair-weather region like Southern California.
wow...."We should all like the idea of crashing into hillsides a lot less...." those with big (or even small) egos should let that wisdom reverberate in their heads a bit before going flying in soup, no matter who's in back. Well said, Sir Paul!
Ohhh, I didn't realize there were so many others on this flight, and so many children.
Hi, Paul, thank you for this video, and all the others you've produced.
Per news articles, in 2015, this pilot did have an infraction of ingressing Class B airspace at LAX when the airfield was below VFR conditions. There has not been much filling out the details, e.g. was it a revenue VIP flight. One might extrapolate if the pilot was repeating the same decision chain in 2020 as he did in the 2015 incident. I wonder if that could be a factor for NTSB Chairman Sumwalt to wondering if Island Express was a bad operator, twice is a habit.
On the matter of various pressures placed by VIPs, or by operators not choosing IFR operation certification, from my comfy non flying chair, it seem obvious that a limit is a limit. That's my summary for all the hair-splitting if avionics or FAA procedures can create an escape path for a pilot's inadvertent adventure into IMC. The NTSB meeting shed light that a formula exists for escaping the soup, the expectation is the pilot is monitoring avionics already in VFR helicopters, that the formula was built upon. I don't personally know how powerful is the urge to ignore flight gauges and accept the inner ear as truth, or ignore ATC's request like ident, when attempting to disentangle a very tangled flying situation.
How does the obviously wordy passenger agreement form (from any operator) call out canceling departure due to pilot decision, in-flight decisions leading to terminating the flight safely, alternate destinations, etc? There may well be a standard "Landing is mandatory, everything else is optional" clause in the agreement, but in the world of VIP travel, maybe that steak don't sizzle. "Thank you for landing safely not at my destination, I won't use you or your company in the future."
Cheers!
This freak accident only seems preventable in retrospect!
The fact that his VIP client was in the helicopter perhaps weighed into his decision to proceed. Sometimes we think we can't say no to important people, and we have to make it happen for them. Just a thought.
I agree. I think he didn't want to upset Kobe so he just took a chance
He’s had flights cancelled in the past so I doubt if that was an issue.
This tragedy is 100% at the hands of the helicopter pilot. The captain of any ship, wether it is an airplane, helicopter, or maritime ship, he or she is fully responsible. The captain has full control of all decisions on every aspect of the flight, not ATC, not anyone else. This guy made terribly bad decisions that killed eight people.
Well said.
Even if you only drive a car and that for over 3 decades, like myself, you're going to make an occasional mistake and have to break suddenly or miss time a traffic light. I presume that's the same for a pilot, but my vehicle is not going to be over a thousand feet in the air, when I make that error But I do hope I won't be traveling that fast
Almost the same scenario as Stevie Ray Vaughn’s helicopter crash, heavy fog , crashed into a ski slope on the side of a mountain.
Plan B ?
Driving from John Wayne Airport to Sports Academy (Thousand Oaks) is 86 miles.
All Freeway on a Sunday morning.
Perfect 👌
Or Land at Van Nuys... Almost as close to Thousand Oaks as Camarillo.
@@bbgun061 or land at a Walmart parking lot and take an Uber SUV from there
Great video, love the cuts to clips from FAA