Is It Wrong To Copy A Design? Good Or Bad
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- Опубликовано: 15 июл 2024
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0:00 - Intro
1:27 - Montblanc 149 & Jinhao X159
3:52 - Pilot Vanishing Point & Majohn A1
5:19 - Omas 360 & Triangular Pen
7:10 - Pilot 823 & WingSung 699
10:17 - Leonardo Momento & Asvine
10:53 - Parker 51 & Jinhao 51a
13:30 - Sailor Pro Gear & Jinhao 82
16:08 - Final Thoughts
#doodlebud #fountainpen #review
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100% disagree, and very disappointed that you made this video. Endorsing these companies is highly unethical. A ripoff is a ripoff, and I will never buy any pen from a company that produces ripoffs. These ripoff companies are enriching themselves at the expense of the people who actually put in the work and took the market risk to develop and establish the original designs and brands. You'd feel a lot differently is someone was stealing *your* work, I'm sure. I won't be watching this channel anymore. You don't deserve it.
No. Patents expire for a reason. And companies like MB or Pelikan do not earn money for "who actually put in the work" but for shareholders.
And what you mean by "original design" - who issued first patent on it? From fp in this video only Vanishing Point has really unique design... in some way. The rest... just a small shape alterations.
Where's the ripoff?
🤣🤣🤣
Many of the brands built their reputation well before many of us were born, and coast on that name. It's the same in fashion, car manufacturing, etc. I'd have more respect if these companies didn't charge such a high premium just for a name.
All designs are based on prior designs, unless we’re talking about an invention or discovery, but even then, it is arguable no one at all points in history invented or found the same, but earlier. Just because a design is sold en masse by a well marketed company does not mean that company laid first claim to it, and does not mean that company didn’t copy or inspire itself off someone else’s design. You’d be surprised how many American designs are copies / slight variations of one another. Montblanc’s cigar shape is a copy and not MB’s own “invention”, for example.
I completely agree with your perspective on homage pens. Doug at Inkquiring Minds did a very funny take on all of the now standard, reputable manufacturers who copied the Montblanc design of the 146- companies that include Platinum, Sailor, Pilot, etc.
You should research more, Montblanc also copied the cigar shape, it's not a design they came up with. Doug has a video on that.
The very first fountain pen videos I ever watched were your Baystate Blue vids. Then your Jinhao82 review was the absolute gateway video for me to get into fountain pens! I would never have tried them if something like that wasn't available/affordable. Mind you - 4 months down the rabbit hole... sigh. The vintage bug bit and my wallet is not impressed with you. 😉🤭😅 But what a hobby to have embraced!
Sounds nearly identical to my trajectory! 🤣 🤣 🤣
ME TOO!!!!! YEEHAW@@amyfeigt6715
Same happened to me. Watched his BSB videos and next thing I know I have a 4.5oz bottle and over a half dozen pens.
I blame him for my pen hobby.
@nope8535 you're welcome :)
Great video Doodlebud! I'd agree that having copies can help someone figure out if they would like the real deal, or make it accessible for those who can't afford the real pen. And I love how MaJohn/Moonman and Jinhao market them as their own pens that are based on X model rather than saying it is X model. I feel that is acceptable because the $10 pen isn't taking sales from the $800 pen.
I bought the Asvine V26 when they came down to $20 so I could have a Vac-filler and see if I liked them. I don't, but I'm glad I found that out for $20 rather than buying Pilot 823.
I bought a TWSBI Vac700 for a similar reason, much more expensive but I was really happy with it, so I got a second one :D
I got a PenBBS vacuum filler for more than I'd like to have paid, but discovered I didn't care for the system for less than the Pilot!
Thank god nobody copyrighted the wheel, we’d all be walking to work.
Interestingly, the most original triangular pen design is something most FP people usually omit for some silly reasons, the Pelikan Twist.
If it isnt a total fake I dont care.
The manufacturing process and materials are often radically different.
Also it's a pen, there are only so many ways you change it and have it usable.
In knives I had the money for the "original" but it was in a steel that I dont like so got the copy in a steel I do like.
Also when ya buy the several hundred dollar "original" and find out it is pretty but performs less than a 20 dollar Buck ya get quite jaded.
I have a box full of Benchmade knives in my basement, but I carry a CRKT. In knives, as well as in pens, sometimes the cheap one works just as well if not better than the spendy one. It's not like Moonman is putting "Montblanc" or "Pilot" on their pen look-a-likes. Whoever it is putting "Lamy" on their non-Lamy Safari clones, though.. THAT I don't agree with.
Thanks, DB! I’m a watercolor artist so I use a lot of pigmented and waterproof inks. I like to draw with a “pretty” pen rather than a marker, so I bought a few Jinhao 82s. No way am I putting Higgins drawing ink in a Sailor PG! I use my more expensive pens for journaling and everyday writing. It’s nice to have options in price and use.
Yup! The cheaper version as great for that kind of stuff
The fountain pen needs to conform to a general shape for it to be functional. Filling systems are well established and there are a wide range. I think the next innovative step is already here and it is materials. Ultem, PEEK and titanium are becoming more common and there might be others in the pipeline. I can see Ultem having a big impact in the ballpoint and rollerball market when volume scale manufacturing brings the cost down.
I agree. A fake trying to pass itself off as real, 1000% NOT OK. An homage, or "copy" for lack of a better word is fine as long as the company isn't trying to make it out to be something that it's not.
The watch community has also struggled at times with this issue. You clearly outlined what many pen and watch fans feel about the situation. I've adopted homage as the word for these pens and also have no problem with them on the market.
I got into watches before pens, and you're absolutely right. I feel like watches suffer from more counterfeiting than pens do, but both are frequently homaged.
Great, informed take. The fountain pen market has a huge variety of segments. Montblanc's ICP is quite different from Jinhao's, I wouldn't even consider them competitors.
Now I'm imaging walking into a fancy Jinhao boutique in the center of a big city and buying the X159 for $7.50.
So many thoughts on this topic. Especially as a newbie researching to build a small 🙏🏾 collection.
Branding goes beyond the logo. The Brand is Why and How a company or person does what they do & how they represent and create that work.
As a designer, the biggest heartsink is seeing someone copy your work. It’s happened to me and it’s crushing. When someone asks “How long did that take to make?” I say it’s 3 months + my 20 years of study and experience.
While teaching at a design college, I failed a student for copying. I told her she would fail if she didn’t do original work. She told me her family makes all their money from copying products. I said well, when you work for your family’s company, then you can copy - in this class, do your own work.
Finally, these “I cannot believe this pen only costs $2” is often (always?!) because people aren’t getting a fair wage.
I don’t want any parts of that.
I don’t want a fake pen sold as authentic, and I don’t want to see a pen so obviously copied from something else. Once I see a video or review on these “looks just like…” pens, I stop the video. I have less than zero interest.
I only got into FPs a few months ago, and most of my pens are "homages". It's a great way of learning about size, feel, and even value. In many cases I've been more than happy, and my current favourite is the V129. Getting to pen shows to experience the higher priced brands is out of reach, and your videos have been a great resource. And unlike many other reviewers you are realistic about what people can/want to pay for a hobby. Thank you.
I also started recently, in July and love the realism of both this and another independent Canadian reviewer (you know who). They love their Chinese pens I think and I've started ordering some for myself. First an Asvine V126, love the feel of the barrel and cap and how the no.6 nib writes and next up is a Penbbs 456. Got a Jinhao shark pen free as a welcoming gift from an online shop, but that's very scratchy. But I've ordered some Mylar, so I can start smoothing it.
My favorite thing that you do here is have fun. You don't make it as serious as a heart attack..whether you're talking about knock offs or engineering. With all the craziness going on in the world, I come here for a little respite from it all. Love ya, DB.
Happy to hear you enjoy watching my vids. This is a way for me to have fun as well. Life is in constant craziness, and this is fun for me to unplug for a little bit and talk about pens
Hi DB!: GREAT video! You bring up some great points. I like the cheaper pens, just like you say, they give you an idea of what the more expensive ones are like. I bought the Majohn A-2 and now I want to get an actual Pilot vanishing point. Would probably not considered it too much before I got to see how the clip interferes with writing (it doesn't for me). Not sure which one it is modeled on, but my Jinhao 9019 Dadao series writes SO NICE, I would for sure not pay $500 or more for whatever the real one is! I am in complete agreement with you about Counterfeit items, they ARE BAD. But, I think these "knockoffs" are good and have a place in the fountain pen world.
Fair point, a cheap knock-off can make a good "training wheels" version of a similar design with a high price point, just to see if you like it. I also bought a MoonMan/Majohn VP-clone, decided I liked its clicky convenience and the clip wasn't a problem. Not long ago I bought my first branded VP, the 60th anniversary Kanreki. Easily my favorite pen right now, but I can still use the MoonMan at work without being overly upset if something happens to it, as I would be if my $400 Kanreki got scratched.
Totally agree. Have gone down that exact path.
Love my Japaneese pens (Sailor & Pilot), but still have a few knock-offs jik.
OTH, my Italian pens, which over the last 15 years I've spent a small fortune, have proven to be beautiful but not that reliable. I eventually save them for a day or two use, clean them out, and go back to the very reliable knock-offs.
For my everyday pens I always have a Pilot/Sailor in my rotation.
DB! Excellent video. I bought a Jinhao 82 before I decided to buy a Sailor Pro Gear Slim. I'm glad I did. Now, Sailor has a new customer. On a funny aside, at times my 82 writes better than the Sailor!
I had the opposite experience. I got the Sailor Pro Gear Slim (medium-fine) first and then got two Jinhao 82s (M and F) to act as pinch-hitters. That "toothiness" just isn't there.
I was avoiding the Chinese knock off pens over concerns for quality, and your detailed videos helped me see the true build quality. Your reviews are spot on and opened up a whole segment I was ignoring (mostly composed of Jinhao and Asvine pens). I have been very happy with the purchases and for the price the risk is relatively low.
Quality has improved quite a bit over the past couple years
Great video, I always like hearing the philosophy of pens and pen design. Also, I can't wait for your asvine update! I always look forward to your uploads!
I think of fountain pens like cars. Certainly there is some overlap and market copying that takes place. However it’s generally frowned upon to create a 1:1 replica and put your badge on it. I think that’s where we sort of disagree. I’d have more respect for companies like Jinhao or Moonman if they adopted elements of other pens but created something uniquely their own. Nahvalur for example took the piston filler made popular by Pelikan and TWSBI but utilized their own unique designs to create a whole new pen experience. Instead a lot of these Chinese companies create a design copy (sometimes exact replicas) and put their badge on it. Certainly you can say it takes some effort to accomplish copying and creating the molds but I don’t think it’s ethical at the end of the day. I don’t knock people for buying them if it’s all they can afford. But I also notice a lot of people who are really into the cheaper Chinese versions saying things such as “ it’s the same only cheaper.” I think that’s also misleading. Just my two cents.
On principle, I do not want to pay for marketing, or branding, knowing that the product does not justify the price. Homage pens demonstrates why FPs should be fairly priced.
I don’t have a problem with it at all (counterfeit is indeed a no, but these are basically dupes which I don’t mind) for these reasons:
1) They are an affordable way to get into FP because you get a lot more access to different characteristics (nib sizes, pen materials and weight, cap mechanisms, etc). And that can lead to upgrading to the real deal once you figure what you really like and want.
2) They are nice and cheap, so you can carry them around on a daily without worrying much.
3) Some of these dupes have characteristics different enough to prefer them over the originals (for me this was the Majohn A1 clipless option which I use with an original VP nib).
4) I think that a lot of the pen companies entry pens aren’t exactly very appealing. Yes they have their charm (I personally absolutely love the preppy) but you may want some nicer designs that won’t cost you a lot, specially since in many cases it may be a hefty price hike to go from an entry level pen to the model you fancy.
I agree...the best real deal in entry for me is the Pilot Kakuno, and Prera, so nice, and versatile. I had a Platinum Prefonte, it was the worst writer in my collection. It sadly went away.
I just love all your content and your approach! Thanks!!
I have a lot more respect for these than actual counterfeiters. These companies arent trying to rip you off with their cheaper product. And for the most part, they arent exactly the same. There are differences in the trim and, frankly, more interesting acrylics and resins being used. That Parker 54 dupe was strikingly beautiful.
And i agree, they arent cutting into the profits for the more expensive makers. I got into fountain pens because I need a pen i dont have to grip tightly or push down hard on the paper. I have no intention of buying a $1000+ pen, ever. My holy grail pen is one that writes well and doesnt cause physical pain. If I can find that in a $30 pen, then I"m going for the $30 pen.
So...know any dupes for leonardo furore grande or momento grande?
For the Momento maybe look at the Majohn M800 -f. Majohn tend to be more expensive than Jinhao/Wing sung etc so I haven't tried them. For me, an M800 costs more than Lamy AL-star, so my feeling is that it would be less risky to buy the Lamy. Many people do seem to be happy with their Majohn though - it can take a boch nib so if for some reason you are not happy with it you can change it out.
@Chrisamic thanks so much! I already have an AL Star, but was at a pen store last month and tried a furore grande and the larger grip was much better for me. I do have a majohn C1 already, and once I changed the nib for a jowo it was really nice. Their nibs are not the best quality and mine kept hard starting and skipping.
@@bethg7026 If you like really large pens then you might want to have a look at the Jinhao Dadao 9019 (Namiki Emperor homage). It's a huge pen, and the first time I've seen them offer medium and broad nibs. The nibs are also large #8. I've got some spare nibs for it as well. I got it with the medium nib and it was smooth but a bit dry until I adjusted it.
@@Chrisamic I have an M800 and it is not the size of Momento Grande, it is like a regular MZ (which I happen to have 3 of them - SBRE Brown MZ, Figboot MZ and Prisma from Stilo e Stile). As I do not like to write with F nibs, I have bought Kaigelu M nibs which write more like a Broad and with this set I am really pleased. Galaxy + Amber acrylics. Obviously I feel the difference between Leonardo and Majohn - but I do enjoy both versions of this design.
Haven't seen any of them inspired by "Grande" versions so far. I'd buy such one in a Galaxy acrylic instantly.
@tayterlik thanks for clarifying that. I have a furore, and while its good, it's not as comfortable as the grande that I tried in the store :(
I have a few of these Chinese pens, and I completely agree. They put their own branding on and there are always differnces, so they're not fakes, they're just putting their own take on well known and popular designs. The quality difference shows though; my older Jinhaos (a year or so old) are starting to show it. My X450 has chips and scratches on the paint. The cap on my 992 broke. I have 4 Lamy Safari clones and didnt like the nibs, so I bought 4 genuine lamy safari nibs and swapped them in, and I really like those now, especially the 1.1 stub. My favurite Jinhao so far is the 8802, so when I finally am in the market for a luxury gold nib pen, the Pelikan 400/600 is where I will look first. I got a Jinhao 82 and that convinced me that I really don't want a Sailor Progear Slim! 🤣
Thanks! As always, appreciate your thoughtful approach to pens ...and the manufacturers who make these "inspired by" pens! I agree with your rationale and applied it myself. I was intrigued by the Conid Bulkfiller, saw lots of reviews, had it on my "Grail pen list" -- but wondered if I'd find the filling mechanism too fiddly for me. PenBBS came out with a similar pen (355) at a much more attainable price so I bought if for an "extended test drive" and discovered that -- yup! that fill mechanism drove me nuts! On the flip side, I have a number of Parker 51's but discovered I'm not crazy about 'em and wondered if a copy would be better. I picked up a Wing Sung Flighter and found it far preferable to the original Parker!
Thank you for tackling this hot-button topic with another thoughtful, articulate video. I’ve been collecting fountain pens for nearly 23 years and there *is* a difference between a well-made fountain pen inspired by another and a fake/counterfeit (as you clearly pointed out). I was a pharmacist for many years and I’ve dispensed many a generic medication to patients who might not otherwise have been able to afford the brand name (and before you go after generic manufacturers, know that hospitals use generic drugs, to save on costs). Pens are different, of course - they are not medications - but if having the option of trying a similar pen leads to the future sale of the pen that inspired it, that’s not a bad thing. If it doesn’t inspire that future purchase, but just creates a new convert to the wonderful world of fountain pens, that’s even better, imo 😊
Someone ALWAYS has more money than me in this hobby--HA! HA! So getting cheap knock-offs ??? I'm having fun.
My view is that it's fine if it takes inspiration, but up to a certain point. Jinhao making cigar shaped pens? That's been "copied" all over for so long. But then Jinhao's copy of the Safari, even using the same font style on the body as does Lamy? Very lame.
Also, 100% in favor of cloning pens that ceased to be offered on the market. Lots of long gone designs from Parker and Waterman that may yet resurface.
I like that yellow jinhao 82 I didn't even know they made them in transparent colors :)
I gave my blue sparkle one away and wanted to have another one. Saw this yellow one and it made the color choice very easy for me!
Great topic to have a discussion on! 👍
I have to say I’m kinda enjoying all these dupe pens. Really enjoying trying all of them out.
From the early days, fountain pen manufacturers have copied. Conway Stewart came up with the lever filler, and Sheaffer's copied to the point that for quite a while, Sheaffer's was credited for the lever filler. Was ultimately because Conklin was litigious about their filing system. Like today, Sheaffer's used this while the Conway Stewart was in copyright, but not in the US.
How many German and Italian pens of the 50s & 60s copy from Sheaffer's and Parker? Montblanc Meisterstück is the still in copyright during the initial production Sheaffer's shape of the 1950s. Many copies of the Parker 51, and the 45. Even the LAMY converter is suspiciously like the Eversharp/Parker design. Even the well loved LAMY 2000 has striking similarities to the 45, just piston and "pregnant."😂 The 45 came out in 1960, the 2000 in 1966. The 45 was in production and copyright until 2008...
Was a forgettable brand that battled Waterman's. They blatantly stole designs from Waterman's, and used a very similar name to attempt to defraud. Lousy construction, only a curiosity today. It's getting more rare to find a "Parker Vector" stamped with a 14K but steel nib, today. Chinese manufacturers are starting to learn.😉
Even their own branded stuff that almost directly copies a more expensive brand copies out of copyright, now. They learned when Kaweco stole the name "MoonMan." For no other reason than they could, because Chinese weren't copyrighting. Or the hypocrisy of TWSBI with the piston nonsense. "Our" piston design, when they use the design Pelikan patented in 1929, to try to attack other Chinese brands (not all TWSBI are made in Taiwan... Look how virtually identical to the Wing Sung 3008 the ECO design is. Down to identical cracking issues during the same time.)
Some Chinese "copies" are from the Parker 45 era in origin. Parker sold the designs of the 51 and 45 to the Hero conglomerate, which is why many Chinese pens until fairly recent used aerometric systems, and I suspect the Chinese standard 3.4 mm converter is interchangeable with Parker (I have yet to test this, but I have my suspicions.😁)
Only so many ways to make a tube that holds ink and releases it in a controlled manner. Like you said, if it works and people like it, gonna be copies.😉
My vanishing point has been at Pilot for 3 month for a repair. Now I'm using a Moonman A1 and it's a decent substitute. The gold pilot nib has a softer feel to it, but it still has the same utility.
Fantastic video!! Thank you! Yup, cars are a big industry that have been copying designs forever! I bought a Hyundai Santa FE in 2015 and shortly afterwards I noticed that basic car design was everywhere!!!! All the companies had gravitated towards it! I feel like, hey, great minds think a like and a great design, is a great design! As a newbie FP gal, these companies are how I’m able to be part of the FP world!!!!
I got a Majohn A1 first as i wanted to try out the style and shape, much the same as you. Then i loved it and went on to get the Pilot VP in the Red Birch wood finish (I'd seen it and was really interested before knowing about the A1, was actually your video on the A1 that made me aware of it)
I think you make the best of an argument for that position.
I also think it has to be a personal choice.
The part that surprised me was the idea of getting a cheap imitation to judge whether to buy in to the original, and presumably, more expensive pen.
It's the nib. That is business end and it makes or breaks a pen for me. Also the balance and feel of a copy will not be the same.
I disliked the MB 146. I thought is not so well made and the nib was like a nail.
So, I sent the 146 back for a refund.
Good video on a difficult subject. - Thanks.
Great video! On the subject of the Pilot Custom 823 Fine, I bought one to go with my 823 Medium. I am still on the fence regarding the Fine nib. The medium nib writes as close to perfectly (per my tastes) as a pen can, but curiously, the Fine nib produces a line closer to an extra fine or even an extra-extra fine nib. It writes okay for such a fine nib and it is surprisingly wet, too, but I have other pens with a fine nib that put down a wider line and are smoother, too. As a result, my 823 Medium is inked all the time and the Fine is inked less often. Odd, that. In any case, thanks for the excellent video!
i second your stance on the 823 F nib, too much tooth and my VP M nib feels heavenly in comparison
I must reluctantly but respectfully have to agree to agree. Like you, at first I took issue with companies copying the original pens. Then while looking to buy grail pens like the Montblanc 149, I did not have easy access to a store where I could physically examine one. That’s where buying a cheap replica came in handy. I just wanted to hold one for size comparison and how it fit in my hand. I knew there would be no comparison with the rest of the build quality. Again, like you said the copy sold a pen for Montblanc. I will be doing that in the future as well where I am on the fence related to size. The Parker 51 is where I agree as well. I have collected many Parker 51 pens because personally I believe they are the GOAT of all fountain pens. I know thats crazy when I have Montblancs, Visconti etc. I just want to collect them and not use them. That’s where the cheap copies come in again and I will actually use them unlike the other copies that I got just for the size comparison. Take them apart, repair, work on the nibs etc., and not be afraid to damage or lose them. Yes, the “knock offs” I stand firmly against. I now look at the copies as a gateway drug for many people to the hobby which I consider is a good thing. By the way this an amazing fountain pen channel. Now my favorite.
I agree with your take. I’m waiting for a knock off of the Pelikan M1005 Stresemann. I think it’s an absolutely stunning pen and got to hold one at the Ohio Pen Show this year. Still can’t justify the price, but maybe one day.
I was actually waiting for your video about this topic and I am glad you made it. I actually really like your take and I think its a valid reason for these pens to exist in the market. It's just that I wish they did more changes to their design. Like on the Jinhao 82, basically almost a 1 to 1 copy to the sailor pens if not for the nib and a different logo on top. Like c'mon at that point they are taking a piss, even with the colors too. Maybe change the logo placement or maybe round of the bottom of the pen or something to make it a bit more different.
A better copy of Parker 51 is Wingsung 601, with its vacumatic system as well. Love it so much.
Agreed with everything you said, DB.
And interestingly, the Parker Pen Company (which is owned by Newell Brands Inc.) still have a royal warrant to provide the British royal family with stationery products. Pretty cool!
Just on its own I think it is wrong. A number of Chinese pen manufacturers do make some innovative changes. That said I would never buy a knockoff of a Pilot Vanishing Point.
G'day, Doodlemate. I agree with you completely. The cheapos allow use to "try before you buy" for a very small cost, and allow us the luxury of not having to expose our favourites to the perils of travel. I am quite astonished at the excellent quality of many of them, especially the P51 copies. All the best from across the Pacific.
Interesting, thank you!
I love looking at interesting desings!
I would appreciate it if you would provide a link to the specific pens that you showed so we can buy them. Especially the pen with the triangular grip. Thanks
Great video and couldn't agree with you more.
Great video. I am very, very, very new to fps. Trying out Jinhao, Moonman and Penbbs, Hongdian et. aI. In the style and sizes of the big boys has given me the interest and motivation to purchase a more expensive version one day. The reason why some purists complain is they don't want to admit that name alone is worth a premium price. My favourite pen in the x159. The quality of my Penbbs feel better but the size of the x159 feels good to me. So, I will buy a MB 149 one day.
The Point with not losing Customers is great i have a Dupont Ligne 2 Lighter (new) but i run around with a 40€ Lighter in the same style and someone who only needs a lighter will not shop around on DPs website for that.
But i honestly dont feel like a Classic Cigar shaped Fountain Pen deserves to be called a Copie they look like this forever i guess you can take exact dimentions ...
I can give Mont Blanc they made this shape iconic
Right on Doodlebud! Another VERY good example of things that have been copied “ad infinitum” is watches, there are so many copies of uber expensive models of wristwatches you couldn’t even list them all. As long as the company is making an homage and not slapping the original manufacturer’s name and logo on the thing , I don’t see the problem. Not everyone can afford a $ 30,000 dollar Rolex Submariner, but really like the look, form and function of the watch. So then buy a Steinhart , Invivcta or even a Seiko, that gives you the look and feel of the real deal. Just my two cents. Cheers from Nova Scotia…(I like watches as much as I do fountain pens.lol😊)
I wish someone would make a Parker 51 homage that was up to the quality of the original, I know the Wing Sung 601 is awesome but it could be better. Or even just more hooded nib pens. I love hooded nibs and I wish more companies made them for not $200+ and that there was more selection!
Well that is the trade off when you get a pen that looks like another pen but for a fraction of the cost. You have to cut costs when you cut price
Great video! I agree.
Our thoughts align… As long as they brand it correctly, I can live with that… Though I don’t own any Jinhao pens at the moment, don’t hate them.
The jinhao 82, and x159 make me want the sailor, mb counterparts. Its free advertising for these companies not competition
Hey Doodle Bud very good argument & you’ve softened my attitude to these copy pens. I have to admit that I get close to MB149 comfort if not quality by taking my X159’s to work. No way would I take my MB149 to work so l kind of win there. Where I really struggle is when you get cheap copies of the legendary vintage Parker 51. This to me feels like sacrilege. It’s just me. That said the new Parker 51 is quite expensive and a poor copy of the original. So give me a cheap Chinese copy of the P51 anytime against the new P51. Thank you very much D😊
Reminds me of Apple's calculator app that looks suspiciously similar to Braun's legendary calculator design from the 70s(?).
My friend, you have given me a new perspective, though I still doubt that I would buy a Jinhao. I know I don't feel so bad about the 1911 or the 3776, but maybe because there is a price to show that hey we are homaging this pen. I don't know if they are homaging this pen, or deliberately trying to undercut the market.
But they can at least change it up a little. One can still look at the the Meisterstuck vs the 1911 and at first glace can tell them apart once you know what to look for. Just using the MB as an example.
But you are entirely correct, which is why I struggle with this. Just a bit of history, the Swiss watchmaker also did the same thing. They copied the French and British designs and sold it cheaper. And it time look what they became. And a couple of car manufacturers, but I don't think Honda and Toyota made it that big 😛
Tricky issue. One thing overlooked .. is a certain government's role. The item, marketting, transport and duty prices indicate there are subsidies involved. These help to put others out of business or at least prevent new startups.
I don't know why they do it.... If it's a feature or something which people actually want (for example pens in black colour) then i get copying that element... Otherwise they should create their own designs (maybe inspired but original enough) if those pens get success they too become iconic....
This is how things work though. Someone comes up with a new idea, product goes to market and it does well or it doesnt. The ones that do well get noticed and products similar to it come out. Its also not always the original creator of a product that has the success. Sometimes someone comes along and finds a way to make it more cost efficiently, differently, add a feature, make a slight design change, etc and that turns out to be the market leader. EG: people have complaint forever about the clip on the Pilot VP. Majohn removed the clip and added a roll stop. The answer was there for decades but it took someone else to do it.
I bought a couple A2s because I didn't know if i would like the clip grip and click design. Well, I do. So, I bought a M Pilot nib unit (and may get another F) for a A2. I now would like a real VP, and will likely get one. That means Pilot will have made more revenue from me than if I would have just bought a VP. Is it worth it to me? Yes! Now I KNOW I like/want a VP, not just "think" I may like/want a VP.
I had the same issue as you with the Pilot 823 Fine. Not a one off issue.
Hmmm I've had several people mention the same experience. Strange because the Elite and VP fine nibs are lovely! They are tiny nibs so you think with a big nib it would be even better... go figure!
I have had to sell some of my pens exactly because I couldn't test them in-person prior to their purchase and I ended up not liking them. Almost all of the time, a Chinese design copy is gonna be a lot cheaper than what you'd end up losing by having to resell the pen. The only exception might by buying used for a very good price, in that case, you can resell with minimal loss.
I agree on your comments re:the 823 fine being disappointing compared to the e95s. I just got the 823 nib and I don't like it.
I concur with your assessment of copies, or homage, if you wish. At some point, we are wishing to copywrite geometry when we copywrite design. The Wing Sung/Young Sheng/Whatever 630 with a 14k nib is not the Mont Blanc -- and I just don't feel the Mont Blanc vibe. But, I have an elegant cigar-shaped piston filler with a wonderful nib, at a manageable price. No one who cares about fountain pens will think it is a Mont Blanc; and no one who doesn't will care.
You are right that imitations are everywhere. I was thinking of cereals and snack foods. Imitations could serve as motivations for people to save up their pennies to try the real McCoy. Thank you for your observations, DoodleBud.
My affordable "trial run" with a Moonman A2 opened the door to my recent purchase of a Pilot VP Kanreki. No way in hell I'd have spent $400 on a design I wasn't sure of and had no way of testing in-hand beforehand.
Hey, so u would recommend Pilot Custom 823 with medium nib? I have Pilot Elite with fine nib and it’s great. Also I have a vanishing point with medium one and it’s a bit too thick for me. Do u know is 823 medium thicker than medium on vanishing point? Actually people say japanese nibs are finer than european, but I was disappointed with vanishing point
I had the same issue with my VP. I got the medium to get something a little bit wider and it was so much wider! So I ended up swapping nibs with someone who had a fine but wanted a medium. I really don't know about the 823 medium if its much wider or just a little wider than the fine. I would just google around and see what you can find. I bet there is a comparison out there somewhere
@@Doodlebud Found this "The Medium in the Pilot Vanishing Points are wider than other Mediums in the Pilot line." So I’m going for medium PC 823
Agreeing with almost everything here, but just want to add: Competition breeds Innovation. If you want amazing new designs or technology (even in a 100+ year old technology), you'll have to push the originating companies to innovate. Pen clone companies like Moonman et al breathing down their necks will push those older companies to come up with new things to excite the market (us) to buy their stuff, at least until China clones THAT stuff, too.
I don't mind copy-pens as long as they are well made. I've had a bunch of Jinhaos that disintegrated with moderate use in less than a year, and that is unacceptable to me at any price point. A similarly priced faber castell or lamy or cheapo pelikan can last for decades, and that's how I like to spend my money, even if it's only 10-20 euros.
If there has been A1/A2/A3 when I bought VP, I might not have eventually bought a VP.. If there had been 82 Mini when I bought Progear Slim Mini, I wouldn’t have eventually bought Progear Slim Mini.
It’s mainly because the clones themselves are pretty decent and the originals aren’t 10 times better for sure.
In my opinion, there should have been stringent laws against Copyright Infringement.
(That Such copyright laws would’ve prevented Pilot from making our beloved Elite/E95S since Sailor made such a pen prior to Pilot is a topic for another day)
On a personal level, I own many of the name brand pens. I want them, I desire their quality and craftmanship. I also own all the 'homage' pens. Why would I buy the 'homage' pens AFTER i already own the others? Very simple. They can go places I would not dare take the others. I would not take my Montblanc 149 on a camping trip to take notes or write random thoughts. I would, however, take a Jinhao X159 and not give it a second thought. It's easily replaceable at a very low cost. The Montblanc would travel to a nice hotel and stay in the room for me to use there. In the tent...not so much. I have two Custom 823s (one with a beautiful FA nib from Tokyo) and it's the same thing. If I'm someplace the pen can possibly get damaged, the Asvine V126 goes in the place of the 823.
Pineider has a new triangular pen. Can’t remember the name of the model.
Modern times: ruclips.net/video/eIiapMGesbw/видео.html
I'm with you, an actual fake that tries to make you think they are the real thing is bad. The others, especially when what they are making has an expired copyright, no problem! If people don't want to support the nation of origin, they can choose not to buy it. If they want higher quality materials & much better QC, they can choose not to buy it. These cheap pens have their purposes. For example, a low cost pen to practice making changes to. Or something cheap to bring to work or school that you won't be upset if it "walks away". And so on.
Very level-headed and reasonable comment. I fully agree that the "getting people interested into the real deal" aspect probably outweighs the losses for the original manufacters.
I'm gonna get hate for this from the CFPLCs, but i don't fully agree. You countered your argument that it sends people to buy the original when you said that you wouldn't. I get it, not everyone can afford a lot of these pens. I agree that they should innovate and develop, there's only a few shapes, but you know a Sailor when you see one, or a Pilot, or a Pelikan, or an MB, or a Faber Castell... They should be able to do the same instead of always being "oh! You got a new Pilot" takes a close look "that's not a Pilot!". I want to see a Jinhao and say "hey that's a cool Jinhao", not "wow, that Jinhao looks just like a Pilot!".
For the Leonardo clone I like the Majohn M800 but with a Jowo steel nib (same as the Leonardo!). That Asvine seems to me to be closer to a Narwhal Schuylkill than Leonardo- 100% though clones are great testers before saving up for a real version - also much less concerned if I leave a clone at the office by accident!!
A design patent lasts 20 years. If that is respected, I have no issue. Otherwise we will be prevented from using any universal idea of what a pen is, from fitting cartridges, to nib sizes. We don't need everything to be a snowflake, I already have too many power and charging cables. I agree with not a complete copy, IE a forgery, Trademarks don't expire, but I don't agree with every design aspect being a trademark.
in watches collecting the debate is the same. they found a beautiful word to design copies. the call it Homages. and the concpt of fake share some carcterics with copies, but if the use the same logo, name etc… its a fake.
the line its thin. but to me put your own logo and name its the side i second. obviously they should put thr touches to differentiate the products. but this prsctice its nota chinise exclusivity. known and expensive brands “borrow” designs “ imspirations from other known brands. so objective rules and laws to determine what is a copy and the limits that define it are the starting point. before this fake is a kind a crime. and copy its a moral question. nice video.
I'm curious to know why you don't show writing difference between expensive and cheap copy?
How similar is it?
It's obvious that the built quality will differ, but my budget can only focus on the main usage, aka writing capability.
The Jinhao 82 is closer to me to the Sailor LeCoule than the PGS.
1. I used to be against copying intellectual property until I spent a couple years in China which just doesn't have that concept. How can someone own an idea? It's a different way of seeing the world. Since then I have calmed down about the issue.
2. I love Pro Gears, and own them in Standard, Slim and Mini. However, they don't come with a fude nib. Guess what, the 82 does, so I bought a couple. Beautiful, so similar looking. I was forced to save a bunch of money.
The key thing in point #1 is you actually visited and gained perspective, then used that new info to reconsider your thoughts. We are all guilty of comping up with an opinion on something limited by our own narrow perspective and thinking thats all there is to it. Good on you for broadening your perspective 👍.
Hope you're enjoying your real Pro Gears and the $7 versions. Both are great pens =)
@@Doodlebud This morning both my 82's ran dry though neither empty. What a disappointment. Could it be because of writing across oil-based color pencil lines? Priming via converter only gives about 5 minutes of draawing. Don't know what else it could be, though lousy paper is also involved. My one other fude is working fine so far (SAILOR Profit $35). My example has reversed itself into a you-get-what-you-pay-for.
All very good points. There is a misconception that ONLY Chinese companies are "guilty" of this. Who made the first cigar shaped pen? You can see lots of this "copying" outside of Chinese brands. One great example is the E95s style pocket pens from the 70s from Pilot, Platinum, and Sailor. They are so similar that the caps are interchangeable. I don't think it's right to say the Japanese brands haven't done this too, at least to a point.
Yup, all brands have made a pen that looks very similar to a pen made previously by another brand. It seems when a Chinese manufacturer does it people call them out, but not when other manufacturers do.
I have a clear Majohn Q1, and just ordered my second, a light green one. People often say things like "oh, they are copying the japanese jumbo pens, that's not cool", well, I'm brazilian, what are the odds, I find a japanese pen not manufactured since WW2 available for me to buy? Even if I find, it will be old enough for me NEVER using it, affraid of damaging it, and in a price tag that I don't think it is reasoable paying for a functional pen, EVEN LESS for a vintage stuff I'm keeping locked. Some people are too sensitive. I use My Q1 on a daily basis, and I love it, now I'm getting a not clear one, I'll shove in my bag, happily use it, and if I loose it, I'll just buy another one, BECAUSE THEY STILL MANUFACTURE IT!
I whish omas were still around, they were the only manufacturer who could compete with montblanc
Intellectual property is still property. It's one thing to have a nib on your pen and a different thing to have a nib that looks just like a competitor on barrel that also looks just like a competitor. It's one step away from piracy, the only thing preventing that crime is that they don't actually call it a Mont Blanc, they just make it look like one in every way. I don't think many of us would be happy if our hard work and creativity were stolen and used by someone else without our permission. Again, I am not talking about your typical things like one car has a mirror and so does another. But if Toyota makes a car that looks just like a Range Rover you can bet they will be in court.
Bell bottom jeans came from the Navy uniforms of the 1960s. Someone was the first who got the idea to design jeans with bell bottoms. They became popular and every brand made bell bottom jeans. They're still even made today. That's what happens. The project I worked on the most got copied by a Chinese company and came in at a lower price point. Our sales did not suffer. The people who would never spend the money for the quality built accurate machine which we made, bought the cheap one. Others would realize the cheap one couldn't do what our machine could do so felt even better about their purchase of the more expensive high quality device. If you come up with a successful idea, product, design, business, etc you should expect that it will be copied. If your product gets copied, take it as a compliment. It means you've made a very successful product.
That's a nice way of excusing theft of intellectual property. @@Doodlebud
Most of the comments against these homage pens or other goods claim it is unethical. They are only considering one aspect of the ethical situation - if it benefits the creator. However there is also the ethics of what it better for everyone.
Patent and copyright law is there to strike this balance of what is best for everyone vs what is best for the individual or company creating it. A patent lasting forever benefits one a small minority to have a designed locked up behind a monopoly, it stifles innovation as there is no pressure to create or improve the next thing. Where as without patents many products and ideas would never be created because it would be too hard to create a market before people copied you and took the market share.
I personally think patent law is move more towards being to generous on the duration as they keep increasing how long it can last...
I got a Wing sung 699 and it completely fell apart! It is not well made. Asvine makes a vacuum filler that is much more reliable.
DOODLEBUD!! TYPO ON THE VIDEO TITLE! GOOD VIDEO THO
Thanks for the heads up. Did the title at 2am on my phone, hit upload, then went to bed LOL
I bought a Pilot VP and it is a wonderful pen but I bought several Majohn A1s and Moonman made money on every one
Here before Desing changes
While i agree that it’s good to make a super expensive pen available at a lower cost to more people, I would stay away from a moderate quality 5-7 dollar copy. At that price, who knows how little workers are paid and where cost is being cut in terms of environmental practices and working conditions
For the jinhao 51a, I would say it isn't a "copy" of the Parker 51. It's too different. There are a lot of hooded nib fountain pens in China, with varying sizes and their own spin. I would say it's a genre of pens. By now the conical nibs have a standard 18.5 mm length, and apart from a few models, you can freely swap into any Chinese hooded nib fountain pens. Hooded nib fountains are just that big of thing in China. It has become inseparable from the fountain pen culture there. As Chinese, I didn't even know there were open nib fountain pens when I was a kid. You can say they all copied the hooded feature, but I kind of feel that will be like saying all existing fountain pen companies copied the feature of a cap liner that meets up with the section from whoever invented it.
Now, which Chinese pen actually copied the Parker 51? That will be the Hero 616.
I also see people say Jinhao copied the new Parker 51 with the 86, the thing is that I'm pretty sure the model came out before Parker released their absolute insult of a hooded nib design. There are people joking about Parker copying jinhao, and failed at it. 😂
And given how Parker clearly didn't care about respecting the original hooded design in their new "51", and dared to charge that kind of money for that piece of 💩, well I'd say screw them.
This reminds me of Sakura Figma line pens. Some of the knock off brands really aren't half bad. The fakes honestly don't need to exist.
Like I said....😂. Some excellent points that I've come to as well. I'm able to separate politics from product, which makes the decisions to buy the "copies" easier. There's definitely some downsides, like with the lack of nib tip size choices, and manufacturer warranties, but oftentimes the quality is good enough, especially for the price. BTW, was the X159 you had there actually a 9019? Another good and helpful video, thanks!
Nope, I was wrong (hard to believe 😅), that was, indeed, an X159.
What about the legalities? Foreign intellectual property is obviously not respected or protected in China, but what about where you or I live?
Yes - there ARE triangular pens. Lamy Dialogue (not fountain pen, true, but triangular)
Pineider Tempi Moderni, too, but that's not exactly a cheap alternative.
Pelikan Twist
My problem isn't with the pens that somehow steal a design. If we say that, then the same way, we can say that stipula for example copies montblanc, which is wrong. When you change something and you put your logo on, isn't a copy or a stealed design anymore. After all, the majority of the pens are all look alike, if you exclude the clip design, the ring, the logo, the color, and some minor changes of a few millimeters in shape.
My problem is when Chinese factories, i don't know which factories, make completely fake pens and put the logo of the originals on. I got a fake like that, it was a copy of an original that costs about 40€ and i got the fake for 20€. The problem is that sometimes those fakes find a way to local stores, maybe even online stores, from grey middlemen. I wouldn't like though to say which brand was, cause that way i will put doubts and harm their sales.