Woodturning - Twisted Copper Wire in Pewter Inlay Fail! Kiln update.
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- Опубликовано: 23 сен 2020
- Woodturning - Well, they don't all make it! I encounter all kinds of trouble trying to develop this twisted copper wire and pewter inlay. Included in this video is another Fridge Kiln update. Stay safe and see you next week with another inlay video!
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Хобби
Thank you for not scrapping that video, I know myself, I’m learning from you and I appreciate your honesty.
You are so welcome!
In the words of Bob Ross “There are no mistakes, only happy accidents” weather or not things work or not it’s always a learning experience. Thanks for the video. 👍🏻
The king if chill Bob Ross, he always knew best, lol.
Jim the man who never makes mistakes never makes anything. I've learned a hell of a lot from watching your videos . Thanks
We are all human, haha, thanks 🙏
Learning is never a fail. Keep up the good work 😁😁
Your inlay work is an inspiration to us all 😁😁😁
Thanks Keith!
It's nice that you aren't afraid to show your projects even if they fail I'm proud you even tried it sorry it didn't work out for you the first time but I do love the second try, thank you for explain it was very interesting. The bowl has some great character and charm. Thank you for an awesome video I really love your videos Amanda xxxx
Thank you!
Great concept. Gorgeous wood. Looking forward to when you use it again. Takes a brave man to admit when he's beat.
Thanks for watching
thanks to you i am almost as much fun inlaying as turning,BM,aka,woodbutcher
Your welcome, lol.
Hi don't worry about it your still one of the best wood turner's I'm wotching be safe
Thanks George!
I can't wait to try some of these ideas. I appreciate all the time of shooting the vid's and narration. It really helps a newb.
Thanks Phillip.
After hitting your projects out of the park (and Province) a million times it's interesting to see what you term a "failure". I wish my failures were this quality! ;) Thanks again for a fun video. Cheers.
Lol, thanks!
This bowl has very beautiful grain,👍
Walnut is king, thanks.
A person can't be perfect every time. Love seeing you explaining the techniques.
Thanks auntie
This would've been interesting, but certainly not the worst inlay to fail. I've loved a lot of your other ideas so much more! Fyi, perfect is good but not always necessary. You have rescued bowls before by doing some CA glue in the cracks with or without color. It might've looked really cool, especially if it were a really contrasting blue or purple.
I am glad you decided to still use the bowl and rework it for a different inlay though! Thanks for also posting the failures! It's awesome to see what works and also what doesn't!
Keeping it real is what I’m all about, lol. Thanks for watching
Great try Jim! Here’s an idea: Mix small copper pieces with pewter just before you pour. You would end up with a more random mix. The copper then won’t impede the flow of the pewter. Food for thought
That might be a great inlay too, thanks 🙏
Sounds a good idea it would look nice as inlay
Thank you for showing both your success and failure --- this is how we learn! At our club I used to tell beginning bowl turners if you don't make a mistake -- how are you going to learn? Safety first and have fun second. Keep up the fantastic work and THANK YOU!!!
Thanks Joel, we all fail sometimes in our lives. This is proof for others to see, haha.
Using the pewter with the copper wire is a brilliant idea. I don't know what to tell you because I don't do inlays. But I will say this, you will either figure this one, find a different material to use, or turn it down to a very nice platter. Good luck! Cheers, Paige C.
Thanks Paige, I will revisit this in the future, Jim.
Thanks for showing your work, excellent! I still can learn a thing or two!
I poured pewter as a child (50+ years ago ...). Soldiers, cups, etc.
To determine the casting temperature, I held a wooden stick in the molten tin. If the stick started to char, the temperature was right.
I would tin the copper wire with flux. This has the advantage that the cast connects quickly to the wire.
As an alternative to tin, you can mix aluminium powder with epoxy and cast.
I use aluminum, copper, brass and bronze powder to make inlays. Copper, brass and bronze age and give a beautiful, antique effect after a while.
Careful!! Working with metal powder is definitely a very messy matter! Lung protection is a must and wearing gloves a wise decision as the powder goes into the pores of your skin and stays there for quite some time!
Cover the work space with news paper! The powder goes everywhere!
How much powder to use, you have to find out. The more powder you add, the more paste like it gets.
Cheers!
Awesome, thanks Stefan. I will revisit this at a later date, thanks for the info. Jim.
I love it that you try new things, even when your not sure it will work. Thanks for sharing. diana
Thanks Diana, I’m always trying to come up with something new, Jim.
I Still like the bowl. It looks like a Mac bowl. Love your work and never stop trying new ideas.
My mind will never rest, lol. Thanks
👍 Great idea.
I enjoyed your video. Thank you
Thanks 🙏
I think you should preheat the copper.
Copper has a thermal expansion coefficient of 17.
If the diameter of the copper ring is 400 mm and you heat it 100°C (the difference say from 20°C to 120°C) the expansion is:
400 × 100 × 0.000017 = 0.68 mm
Over 120°C you will start getting tempering colours or annealing colours in copper, don't really know the English terminology here.
So you will probably want to stay under 120°C.
Annealing colours is due to oxidation so it takes time and air, when pouring pewter over the copper it doesn't matter if it'll get over 120° because of time and lack of oxygen when covered in pewter.
Or it might be a cool effect and nice border between copper and pewter if copper get annealing colour.
This would probably work in a straight run that the wire is not tight, like I said in the video, if you preheat the copper wire that’s already tight in the grove it going to expand and then you won’t be able to fit it in until it cools down. I’m sure there’s a way, I just wasn’t ready to spend more time on it. Thanks for the advice, Jim.
@@SpragueWoodturning You would need 0.68 mm play on diameter, i.e. 0.34 mm play in grove.
For me as a machinist 0.34 mm is alot, i usually hunts hundreds of a mm sometimes thousands but for hand made I don't think that's alot.
If you cross measures the diameter to check roundness on 400 mm bowl would you get results under a 0.5 mm?
@@SpragueWoodturning Just thinking out loud here, but;
1) Any oxidization/discoloring of the copper would be on the surface and buffed out with the sanding. I don't see that as being a problem as it would be so thin. However, the copper wire has a low specific heat value so it would lose most of it's pre-heat putting it into the channel before the pewter is poured on it.
2) If the entire bowl were pre-heated to 75-80 C the cool (25 C) wire and channel wouldn't cool the pewter as quickly as it is poured. Pewter melts around 105-110 C. The hotter your channel is, the longer the pewter will remain molten and flow into the crevices. A consideration is what would that amount of heat do to the wood.
Love your work and your thinking process. Good luck with this problem.
Thank you for another nice idea. Don´t give up this yet! Heating up the wire and using flux should give you good results.
Worried about how toxic the flux is. I’ve not checked into it, but the stuff I’ve used in the past was really bad stuff, Jim.
Great that you try many new things, you can't win them all ☺
Great looking grain
Thank you for sharing 😉
Thanks 🙏
Well, nice try and it’s a beautiful bowl. I like the idea of using powdered pewter in with the copper, but I think a resin would be brilliant also.
Agreed, thanks
Ya learn something every day.
Sure do! Thanks
I don't work with melted ingredients, except cheese. But definitely was an interesting video even if the copper didn't work with the pewter. Thank you for sharing 🥰
Thanks for watching!
The copper/pewter inlay was a beautiful mix; however, it didn’t work. I was for sure the soldering iron would have worked and it didn’t. I agree it’s time to move on.
The idea of using resin is a very good idea. Use a translucent silver powder color and after sanding then the copper will poke through and look crazy good. I am hoping you have a tremendous outcome. Take care.
Cut and run, lol. Lots of other interesting inlays out there yet, thanks Jim.
I love all you do, even the "mistakes'. I did wonder if you could have poured the pewter first and then put the wire in. Just a thought.
It solidifies to quickly. Thanks for watching
Another way to melt the pewter worth trying is the high amperage from an arc welder through the copper wire to make the wire red hot. This would require having the ends of the wire come out of the bowl, one end power the other ground. An inlay would be required when the wire extensions are cut off.
Neat idea, thanks Charlie.
I just had the same idea. But does one need to connect the electricity thrue the cobber wire? the pewter could lead the courrant itself?!
Hi from Vancouver Island. Good try. I wonder if you fluxed the copper wire first like you do before soldering? I like the resin idea. So many different tones of silver you could use.
Any of the flux I’ve used in the past is poisonous so I didn’t want to use it. I did think of it tho, thanks Robert.
I'm sorry my suggestion end up as a faill..
The problem is that the cold copper cool the pewter to fast. A preheating of the wire in situ may help. Perhaps with smaller soldering irons(+ helping hands to hold them..) , and drops of pewter as heat bridge...Or more simply putting the bowl in a oven at the maximum temperature the wood can withstand, and then pouring the tin. It may split the difference enough. I don't no.
The use of rosin flux may lead to sorry inclusions but pretining the wire w/o flux may help the flow.
Lastly pouring the pewter at many spots in the same time (again helping hands..).
Great job nonetheless, keep going your own way. As said in french "les conseilleurs ne sont pas les payeurs"!
Thanks, it was a great suggestion! I will return at some point with this, I’m not beaten easily, lol. Thanks again.
Jim, I know this may sound overly simplistic, but what if you poured a "base" of pewter in your groove, placed your wire in it that base before it cooled. Then made a second pour of pewter so you encapsulate the copper and have a heat sink under it? I appreciate your honesty and love your work.
That might work too. One of the problems is the pewter cools so fast it will tend to have high and low points in it making the wire sit awkwardly. You could mount it back on the lathe I suppose when it’s still hot and trim it so it’s flat. Thanks. Jim.
i'm going through your backlog, and as a small metals worker, i think it would help if you annealed the copper wire first, and fill with pewter 1/2 or 3/4 of the way. then you're only sanding back the copper until it's flush, rather than sanding both metals to expose the copper.
Thanks, I’ll give it some thought.
Sucks when it doesn't come out the way you want but I think that's how we all learn to get better.but it's a beautiful bowl.n I'm sure you will make it look great.ya gotta give it up at some point.
Yup, sometimes ya just need to throw in the towel. It’s all ready inlayed with soapstone, lol.
As others have stated, the copper is acting as a heat sink for the hot pewter. A double strand instead of the quad strand you used might work with the method you demonstrated. Might try pre heating the ladle and reheating the pewter between pours to keep it hot.
Heating the wire seems to be the key, thanks Jim.
Copper is very conductive, so u could trying using 2 soldering irons. One with a smaller head that will fit directly into the groove & rest on the copper to heat it & use the 2nd iron again with a smaller head to heat the pewter. If u add a dimmer switch to each iron, u can target more specifically the individual heating/melting points of each metal, this allows u to control the expansion & contraction of the copper. I’m thinking if the solder head is too big & not able to fit down into the groove, u’ll loose heat into the wood rather than it being directed into the metals. U could also try painting flux onto the copper wire, which may help the pewter to stick to the wire more. I’m just thinking of using some of the principles used in copper foiling lead lighting products & adapting those to this product. I’m suggesting using smaller soldering iron heads cos u can apply the necessary heat more directly without burning the wood. Let me know what u think? Barb
Great idea, thanks for your input. I really think it’s a heat issue for sure. Others by email have mentioned the copper might need to be cleaned before as well, Jim.
Perhaps ... insert copper; pour pewter; *hammer pewter to close gaps;* sand surface. BTW, copper should tend to sink in pewter. Aluminum should float. Stay safe. -Mike😷
Thanks for the suggestion. I’m pretty sure if I start hammering on the bowl with enough force to force the pewter around the wire, there’s a good chance I’m going to crack the bowls, Jim.
The pewter hiding the copper wire looked good when you sanded it. Almost like a brushed nickel. I truly think it looked great! Sorry it didn’t work for you.
Thanks 👍
Try heating the copper wire in the groove with a heat gun just before introducing the pewter.
Thanks Phil.
Babyquestion: why don't you produce bronze out of copper and pewter? You'd be able to either pour it into the groove (if the temperature allows it) or from a ring you'd be able to use as an inlay you'd only had to glue in and even out the surface...
Great idea but I think the temperature would be too hot to do that. I don’t want them to blend together, I want them to contrast, thanks for the suggestion tho, Jim.
Maybe try flux on the copper wire. It helps clean and pull solder around when doing pipes. It might help the material flow better.
Yes, this has been mentioned by others and if I attempt this again I will try it, thanks.
Maybe its time to try your hand at a resin for your copper inlay.God Bless you and your family.
It just might me the time, lol.
Use your torch to heat it as you pour, the pewter cools faster then it takes to heat it, try it. Edit, also heat your copper up slightly before you drop it in the bowl, think of it like trying to solder a wire without enough heat on the wire, it won't stick or flow.
Possibly, like I said in the video tho, if the wires already tight and you heat it up it’s going to expand, then you can’t get it in the grove. Heating the pewter with a torch is a great idea tho, thanks.
Have you tried putting the pewter in first, and then heating the copper, and pressing it into the pewter?
This method, if it works, would ensure that the slot is filled with pewter.
Polishing off afterwards would expose clean copper, and any discolouration would be hidden by the pewter.
Adding some flux to the copper wire first would be advisable.
The pewter solidifies too fast, I also think it’s kind of risky doing this too, not a fan of molten metal splashing on me, lol. Thanks
@@SpragueWoodturning
I think you've misunderstood me.
I meant;
Pour the molten pewter into the slot, and allow to solidify.
This would ensure that the slot is full.
Then, heat the wire, either with a soldering iron, or small fine flame blowtorch, and gradually feed the wire into the pewter.
Applying flux to the wire first would be good, to ensure good 'wetting' of the pewter to the copper.
You could also try 'tinning' or soldering the surface of the copper wire first, which would make the pewter attach to the wire more easily, and less chance of patches where the pewter hasn't attached.
Modern lead free, tin/antimony solder, for potable water pipes would work, as used by plumbers. (and the flux)
This way, the only molten pewter you work with, is a small patch, immediately where the copper is entering it.
Very little chance of any splashing during that process at all.
Ok, got ya now, thanks.
@@SpragueWoodturning
😊
I use gilders paste to accent bowls and platters where the wood grain is rather plain and needs something to make the piece pop. Gilders paste comes in may metal colors.
Never heard of it, do you know if it food safe? Thanks, Jim.
@@SpragueWoodturning I'm not sure about the paste form but the metal powders you can get and use epoxy or CA glue can be food safe. I am not a chemical engineer or do I play one on the internet.
Perhaps apply the torch to the pewter and go with a burned edge? It would help the pewter to flow into the voids and the darker color of the wood would make the bright metal pop a little more. I dunno, just food for thought. :)
I just don’t think it would look good, the edges of the inlay area will burn and get rounded off. Possibility the solution would be to make the inlay area deep and then hit it will the torch and melt it then. That way the top ugly burnt area can get turned away. You never know, you just might see it in the future, lol. Thank you so much!
I wish you had tried making the powdered pewter and CA glue. Although I'm far from knowing about it. I do wire wrap with dead soft copper. It's easy to work with and I like that I can antique it or leave it bright copper.
I gave it some serious consideration but it would never would of looked uniform. If you can get powdered pewter at a reasonable cost, that might work. Jim.
Wouldn't powdered pewter leave voids? Even die cast, done under great pressure, has voids.
@@alanmcentee3035 yes, there’s a good chance there would be, the difference is I can repair them. If I tried to do that here it would look a little weird. Jim.
I don't blame you for stopping while you were behind. I like the idea of the copper in the pewter inlay but I'm just not sure how to make it work. And I'm with you about not adding the shavings to it. You are right, it would stand out and not look right. I've been trying to think of something that might work for the silver color and the only stone I can think of is Hematite. But I think it might be really hard to work with. Have you tried using it before?
I have not tried hematite, I will return to this inlay at a later date, I will not be defeated, lol.
Might want to try fluxing the copper wire first. And then, as you pour, keep the heat on the pewter. Every second there's no heat on that pewter, it's getting cooler and affecting the flow.
Thanks, will give it a go next time. Jim.
Hey Jim, I have no idea if this would work or not, but what if you chrome plated the copper wire, then embedded the chrome plated wire in something like a black soapstone and sanded it down to expose all three colors? I have no idea how the chrome would handle the sanding then buffing but I loved what you were trying to do in this video. Thanks for sharing.
It probably would look pretty cool, the wire would need to be chromed prior to twisting because it would all fall off. It’s pretty pricey to get things chromed so I don’t think I would ever do this, Jim.
Good idea - but in my experience you need flux on copper wire to make pewter stick/flow also copper wire needs to be really clean and grease free.
Is there a specific kind of flux to use and is it food safe? Thanks, not an expert in this field. Jim
Hi Jim,
I would suggest a plumbers flux - comes in various forms paste liquid etc. Regarding food safe not sure but as they use it on domestic copper water pipes assume non toxic. Also preheating the copper inlay in place with a heat gun before your pour would really improve your flow rate.
Cheers,
Dermot
I thought the double twist on the copper wires was not simple enough to make an attractive pattern, it also made a lot of spaces that could not be filled by the pewter. A heavier gauge wire might have worked with a simple twist.
I think the key here is to warm the wire somehow before filling the groove, flux might be a good idea as well. Someday I will revisit this and will beat it, lol thanks 😊
Try Putting Flux on the wire before poring the pewter on heat the flux dip the wire in if or brush it on. This is just a thought because the wire has residue from the coating the flux cleans the wire.
You just might be right. I should revisit this inlay and try it again. Thanks
How about braded wire, that way you would have some holes for the puter to go into, nice try though, liking what you do
Thanks, I might try it someday.
Try tinning the copper before twisting. This will allow the pewter to adhere to the copper
Thanks John
i like the single wire! I think you could have heated a small amount of pewter and poured it into the voids..or ground pewter powder and epoxy!
The single wire might be the answer. Jim.
@@SpragueWoodturning I love it, Thanks for sharing the idea! I will be using it again. I found a stash of wire in the basement!!
Cheers, Jim
Perhaps heating up the rim of the bowl and the copper will help the pewter to flow.
Yes, I think heating the copper is the key, thanks.
You never know until you try. I bet if you went back with the copper and put black pearl resin it would pop!
It sure would! Thanks Warren.
👍
Thanks
Not a fail, Jim. Just a happy little accident.
It’s a work in progress I guess, thanks.
Maybe pewter first then quickly place the copper on top. The copper in clear epoxy could look good.
Yes, that’s a possibility, thanks.
Nothing ventured nothing gained, a great video anyway. Don't know if you can get MAP gas for the torch in the Great White North, comes in a yellow tank and burns at a higher temp, would take less time for melting the pewter.
Thanks Greg. I just don’t do enough of this kind of work to invest in better equipment. Jim
@@SpragueWoodturning Its a yellow tank that screws in to the torch that you are already using, instead of propane it's MAP
What about heating the metal(s) by electricity? the pewter would fill in the air pockets ( I think) between the cobber and the wood. ? Just an idea...!?
Yes, it would seem that’s the answer, Jim.
What would happen if you set the bowl on a vibrating surface as you were pouring the pewter in I’m thinking it would eliminate the small air pockets by helping to flow the pewter out faster ?? Just a suggestion would love to see this inlay work
Ya, I see you point, the only problem is the bowl needs to be level and I’m not so sure about vibrating molten metal. It could work and it could be disastrous, lol.
In looking at the final photos I noticed that the wire is pushing against the outside rim of the cut grove holding the wire. In almost every case this is where the void occurred. I agree that when you make the pour the copper drawers the heat away from the pewter at this location and will also not allow the pewter to flow into these small voids which contain air. The other side is much larger & not constrained by the wire has no voids. I believe it’s trapped air bubbles also. Vibrant, Smaller wire, center wire or maybe a wider grove ?? Jay
I would agree that if there’s more room the pewter tends to flow better. If the ring was welded together you could cut the grove according so there’s ample space on each side of the copper ring. You could then heat the ring up, place it in the grove, then pour the pewter. This is all good in theory, but I’ve got to be carful how long theses inlay take for me to make, you can only charge so much for a bowl. Jim.
Just an idea: could it be possible to heat the pewter by puting two electrodes (cathode and anode) in the metal? Or just pour pewter without copper? The silver look of pewter alone seemed great.
I cover just a pewter inlay on my channel too, in this video I was looking to combine the two to see what it looked like, thanks for the electrodes idea, I don’t think anybody has come up with that idea yet, Jim.
I don't have a solution for your problem. (And late to the game with catch-up watching.) But dabbling in jewelry I know melting pewter can give off lead fumes. If you mentioned that I missed it, and I'm sorry. It should be done in a ventilated area, I didn't see if you had your garage door open while working with it.
I only use lead free pewter. Thanks.
Painting the copper wire with flux may get the pewter to flow around the copper. Have you considered that?
If I do this inlay again I will do this, many others have suggested it already, thanks.
How about using a flux as you do when solder copper joints?
Thanks Robert, talked about this below, Jim.
#1 flux your copper. #2 you need to bring the copper up to ta high enough temp to melt the pewter if you want proper flow and adhesion. I do metal art/ jewelry and those 2 steps make or break a project.
Thanks Cory. Might try attaching the two ends of the wire together next time and putting it in the oven then pouring the pewter. Jim.
How big of bowl was this, and approximately what length of twisted wire did you end up with (or start with)? How thick are the finished walls (or how thick is the rim)? Thanks.
10” across ish, 3’ long, walls are about 1/4” and rim is about 3/4”. I never really covered this because the bowl now has an alabaster inlay. In the future, I will try to cover this better at the end of the video, Jim.
@@SpragueWoodturning thanks, it gives me an idea how much wire to strip!
I would start with at least 10 feet.
How about putting the pewter in 1st then laying the copper ring in
It won't work, the pewter hardens to fast. Jim
@@SpragueWoodturning I see
Would warming the copper wire help?
The problem with that is the wire will expand and won’t sit flat.
Might try small copper pins to hold down wire, then a hot air paint stripper to heat up wire before pouring.
👌💯🇧🇷
Thanks 🙏
Jim: Do you think it would have worked better if you did not do the last twist in the wire? Joe in Calif.
Possibly Joe, that would mean there’s less cold wire to cool the pewter down as it makes its way around the bowl. I did cut the end off of the test inlay that I showed at the end of the video with just the single twist and can’t see any gaps. I was really looking for a different pattern with this inlay. Thanks, Jim.
I don't really think it was a failure you could have just trimmed it up and it could be a bowl again
I saved the bowl. But the inlay was a failure! Thanks 😊
Oops But Still Pretty Cool Shit Man;)) Try Thinner Wire Designer Epoxy Rocks;))
It needs to be heated in order for the pewter to flow around it. Still trying to figure this one out. Possibility tinning it before hand. Thanks
I would go for two inserts one for the copper and one for the pewter..There’s a larger bulk of copper this time,so it is cooling the pewter down faster and causing it to contract ..Alternately try a wider groove and let the pour go both sides of the copper that may work better..But some metals just don’t work together ,that’s why jewellers tend to do pieces in sections and either solder or rivet it together ..looking forward to see what you go for 😀
Thanks Christine, I’m always looking for new ways to bring out the beauty of the wood, Jim.
Try again warm the wire in oven and pour pewter onto warm wire the pewter is being chilled by the wire acting as heat sink
Yes, the only issue with that is the wire will expand and then not fit in the grove and once it cools down enough to fit again it will be too late. Thanks for watching!
I believe that the shrinking and expansion of copper is less than that of pewter.
You can't win them all. Hell of a try though Jim.
Nope, thanks 🙏
BOA NOITE SENHOR,OBSERVO QUE NÃO HOUVE Á ADERÊNCIA ENTRE O CHUMBO E COBRE.
__ CONSIGO RESOLVER ISSO PRA VOCE!!
ANTES, LIXVERNIZ
ENROLE
What's your solution?
@@SpragueWoodturning ANTES DE COLOCAR O JUMBO, COLOQUE UM FIO DE ARAME DE COLBRE BEM LIMPO, MAIS FINO QUE ONDE O SENHOR IRAR ENCHER COM O CHUMBO, VERIFICARA QUE O CHUMBO IRA ADERIR MELHOR NO COBRE E DEPOIS PREENCHERA A MADEIRA.
You might want to coat the groove walls with flux before pouring, that should solve the adherence problem. You could also flux the wire at the same time. Just a thought
Thanks, that might work too. Jim.
"Every failure is a step closer to success." I agree that pre-heating the copper might work but it's how you do it that will be problematic....blowtorch, soldering iron, or flame heat is out so that leaves some kind of electrical current. Do that off camera first....you know....so you won't frighten your audience! Best to you and stay healthy.....eh!
Frightening the audience is the best part of this RUclips channel, haha. Pre-heating is the key, eh. Thanks Doc