I am an old surfer looking to start foiling. From where I sit foiling is the future of surfing especially given the crowds at my local break. We have a lot of waves that can only be surfed with a foil. Foil assist is a no brainer...it just makes sense. When the internet was introduced the world was sceptical and we all know how that went...Foils and electric motors for foils will go the same way....eventually. That was a really good idea with the recessing of the board/battery interface.
I think if you look at the alternatives of learning foiling this is a no brainer. Boat assisted lessons get expensive very quickly and you have to work around someone elses schedule. Buying a jetski is going to be expensive and you need someone else to pull you. Paddling for hundreds of hours into surf can take forever and many just quit. If you live in an area where wind is seasonal this is an incredible option to be able to get daily time on the water. thanks for putting together this review! I was just getting up and foiling on my wing and our season has now ended, so I was considering light wind wings and possibly a sup setup just for practice. I may forego all of that and just get one of these.
It's now almost October coming into the winter for us. I've not changed my mind - been a great year and this is clearly a new discipline on it's own. Been one of the best years in the water.
Same bullsh!t with emtb in the early days. I love my turbo levo, it has kept mtb fun as i get older. I kitesurf and wing foil and am looking forward to getting a foil drive for all the reasons you have given.
Just as a side note - sunday morning the forecast was good but I had to be home at 9am... I took the drive to the water at 0530, - 3 people out - 2hr 45 riding - did 3 batteries - 45km, 90 good waves (plus/minus). When I came out there were 60 surfers in the water, threw it in the van at 0845, home in 10 minutes. Honestly, if you tallied all the waves up that I caught in my session, and then tallied all the waves caught by all the surfers as a collective, I would not be surprised if my count was higher. I made sure I pulled off way before any surfers' takeoff points and had an absolute riot. There was no conflict, no dramas, just a ton of stoke, and a shed load of unpowered time on wave. People will always say that it's not purist, but how else can I get some much stoke compressed into such a short session?
Well said - great introduction.!!!!!! I took the "hard and long route", and I am still looking at buying a foil assist ($$$$) for certain days here in the OuterBanks. We have swells so far out from shore (that never break) that would find you out of breath before you would ever reach them pumping or paddling.
Well reasoned and presented.........and yeah, I'm an Old School Surfer from SoCal, began ins '69, no leashes for a few years, and paddling out 100 yards only to lose the board and take a beating.......that process of learning IS character building, but time marches on, new technology happens, and early adaptors have fun. Just don't go to crowded established breaks, with that board it should be easy to mostly stick to breaks that are unreachable or considered not prime for paddle in traditional surfing. Remember, we're propelling ourselves and dodging other people for seconds or a few minutes worth of riding, while you're cruising for an hour at a time. Excellent video, many thanks!
Thank you very much for making this fantastic video and sharing it with the world. This is my favorite video about the sensibilities of Foil Driving, and it's very relevant to me. I turn 68 tomorrow. I had a wonderful time learning to foil surf last year with a Foil Drive Assist Plus. I then decided to go after surf foiling the hard way, with only my mind and body. After months of frustration, I had only a few not-so-great rides to show for my effort. A few days ago, I decided to give up this crazy quest and become a Foil Driver again. I'm saving money for an Assist Max, and I'm hoping to be having much fun again before the end of 2024.
Great rundown and I really dig the cutout FD board design, great work on that! Hard not to agree that this will be the future direction for lots of FD boards. 👍🏻
I really appreciate your summary, I’ve been thinking for the past week how to inset my gen2, and I love your solution. I’m only 12 sessions into it now, come from surfing, windsurfing, windfoiling, and most recently winging…I’m old now and my shoulders keeping me from winging as much as I’d like, but I’m very optimistic about foil drive. Thanks again!
Really good, well considered discussion Mike, thank you. I make DIY ‘faux’ drives, currently have box on top of board between my feet, directly over the front foil. Looks awkward but actually easy to use because board is 5’6 Phazer and I can get a knee either side. Plan is to make a smaller board and sink batteries into the top. You mention you are going up in length on the next build, will you keep width and thickness the same? Foil Zone forum is an incredible resource if anyone is considering DIY. The 90L Phazer is a great option for down-winding, can easily move the box to the back of the board if I have to and paddle in. Do upwind wing, downwind assist sessions and it works so well. Thanks
There were three of us out yesterday on the best day so far, and though we still remember the pain of handing over the cash it has faded, and we do it all over again in a heartbeat.... It may cost, but get in early and you wont regret it...
Use the Gen 1 assist, because of less power I have to use my paddle quite a bit, I’m a paddler anyway so no probs with that and it keeps me fit, and I have to use the bumps so requires a bit of thinking about which in a way I like. A great tool for sure, lots of days on the water I wouldn’t of otherwise and places I wouldn’t be at otherwise.
Great insight for new owners. I've recently got a Gen 2 for exactly this sped up learning idea being completely new to prone and all foiling and it's also working perfectly. Long time surfer but became apparent immediately that this journey would be a slog without the assistance of something like a foil drive assist. 100% money well spent so far. I'm now going to places and waves that even prone guys can't access 👍. The options now are endless and honestly it's taken the focus off integration within a lineup because now I can create my own. Enjoy 🙏
Totally well said. Yesterday we had our best day ever, 3 of us on drives on an isolated spot. Mind altering. Ridden over 120km in the last 2 days and well over half that was unassisted. This thing is just next level.
Thanks for sharing your foil drive story and experience. I think there are a lot of us on the fence with foil drive. I have been windsurfing since the early 80s switched to kiting in 2003, that increased my time on water drastically. I finally picked up wing foiling while in hood river for 3 weeks last fall, 2023, followed up with 3 weeks in the outer banks NC. Im going back to the outer banks this week for 3 weeks but i have elbow tendinitis from kiting and winging. I want to get on the water as much as possible so im considering picking up a foil drive at real in obx. But over 5K, that’s massive. Im turning 60 in a month and I dont know how many more years i will have enjoying water sports which has dominated my life for over 40 years. So will I get a foil drive to accellerate my foil progression, increase my days on water, and take it easy on my elbow, im still not sure but your video was very helpful. Thanks. Larry
@@leapnlarry I also kitesurf, wingfoil and foil drive. Foil driving waves is so much fun and the progression is very quick. It is expensive but totally worth it.
As someone who has kite foiled and wakefoiled with a pocket board (skipped the winging thing) wondering what size/volume board you started on and continue to use. Also what size front wing have you been using (sq cm2)? Thanks. Awesome video
Great discussion, it's also important to know the local waterway rule. In a lot a places powered craft are not allowed in the vicinity of swimming or surfing
there are rules popping up all over the place all the time. I'm lucky where I live - no stress at all. Tow boogie amuses me.. how do you classify that? It's like a sea drone, unmanned, powered craft trailing a long line! haha
All I can say is I wish the old Kiteboarder forum was still going - The slagging would have been monumental! ( I am guessing parallels would be drawn between the need for a battery assisted device to get your kicks and other "pursuits") For the record I have a DIY version but I only use it when wearing a disguise! I am slightly worried that new FD users stray from the shallow end before they are ready to face a technical problem out in the deep end but - stay away from the crowds and have at it. Do paddle foilers have a place at the table at a crowded break ?- actually no - but having seen what Medano is like ( a complete free for all with only beginner surfers but every other conceivable craft including many FDs) it is surprisingly mellow. The coolest guys on the beach however were the pro paddle foilers for sure - if you are good enough ( not me - yet) you can ride around for ages without getting your kicks with a device that requires batteries!
Fantastic video!!! I subscribe to everything you've detailed and completely agree without a doubt. However, I have a question regarding: how did you calculate the position of the screws and the hole where the battery is positioned inside the board? I wonder about this because there are multiple factors: The foil brand (some are more forward than others), for example: Armstrong has the mast more forward... The type of wing or front blade depending on the size of the waves (or do you calculate based on the most common wing?). The weight and size of the battery (slim or Max). Because with the battery on the outside, it tends to lift the board as you mentioned, but when making the hole, that friction no longer exists and can change the position, or is that not the case? I don't know, could you tell me how you did it? This idea of having a specific board for foiling seems very ingenious to me, and I'm definitely going to copy it. Thank you very much and sorry for the lengthy question.
I know my own foil position inside out. If I build a board for anyone else I ask them to mark where the centre of their front heel is on the deck, then measure that distance to the front mast bolt. That lets me see where it needs to be in relation to my's design's outline. As a rule, the more area behind the drive, the more efficient it is to get up, but you are right - some foils are quite different - yet most modern foils are close to each other in geometry these days. You still have brands like AXIS where you can move the fuselage position too, but most people find their sweet spot and stick with it.
I agree, and in my eyes it's a must. Having your foot directly on top of the drive unit gives so much more control, and removes a lot of the front foot pressure - so much so that you don't have to adjust your front foot position from drive to glide..
Yeah, it's a lot of coin. My bill with extra battery was £6000 - $7500. It's a lot. I kind of forgot the pain of writing the cheque now, just left with the riding. A bit like childbirth (I have been assured), lol.
@@joostgolsteyn3193sure there is. Simple supply and demand with no real competitors. You’re always free to attempt a DIY version or give Manta a try. I hear they have a lower entry price point
Thanks for the kind words. that one was 4'8"x21x2" inset drive with a 10mm deck of pvc, through which I used 4x stainless blind T nuts that sat in the PVC. I used carbon tube bracing from the inset deck recess to the base of the hull at a 45 degree angle to stop twist. A shim of 3mm pvc was used to squeeze out the water between board and drive to aid signal - next one is 5' as I need some extra length behind the drive for a faster flatwater pickup, and majority glass construction as carbon is a signal killer :-/
@@ktwo-surf that’s excellent cheers. I am looking to have built 5’3 x 18 x2 and follow your insert design. I have a 5’3 x 19 with tracks forward. Have worked out my ideal placement. Now time to start the new board. My weight is 88kg and live the Armstrong ha 880 and 1080 foils. I look forward to your next vid.
Thanks for the kind words. I’ve heard of no-one inseting yet, it’s early days. When I heard axis were bringing a board out I expected it to have this tech 🤷♂️ I work with AK and they are looking at it now…
Ebikes started the same way, but magically people aged, got bad knees, and suddenly very quietly they bought ebikes rather than quit. When you start bringing power to a previously unpowered sport there will be haters, and often they will have valid complaints. Giving back to the community and trying to not be the poster boy for bad etiquette is a good path... I think Efoiling and e-assist foiling opens up a huge amount of unused coastline...
This is awesome Mike! Im waiting in the wings to see how these are and saving a bit each month 😂. Your inset on the board idea is fantastic well done. Hey long time since we discussed your supra mods over the phone 😊
Hey Mike, I’d like to get a board shaped like yours. What are your board dimensions and how deep is the inset? Carbon? I’m around 170lb and have been riding a 40L board. Thanks in advance.
I use 4'8x21x2" in this vid, new ones are 2" longer but all in the tail behind the drive as it helps counteract nose lift when starting. it's a game changer for sure!
Good video Mike, I genuinely think you should try prone foiling, you constantly say how hard it is, and yep, it is hard, but it's not that hard... With a big volume board and a big foil it's relatively easy and forgiving. All the waves in this vid would be perfect for it, even the small ones. My first go prone I got some flights, and that was three years ago and I wasn't a great surfer, I'm still very much a below average surfer. You've got the foil skills, paddling isn't that hard and I'm sure you'll realise it's easier than they say. Small boards and small foils make it hard, but paddling in and flying along on a wave is no greater feeling in my opinion... Give it a try... Let me know how you get on.
I will, I will... Thing is, my life is not rich when it comes to time. If I want to do some exercise - it's an hours' hit class, not a full day at the beach. I can do 60 waves in an hour easy, including ALL the best waves, and you just cannot do that prone... Made me laugh - one comment was "all gain and no pain" - not wrong. Also - you'd better get some anti twitch medication as everywhere I look, everyone calls riding a foil assist prone. Not me, I've now towed the line, but everywhere I look they are coming for your sport, wanting to overwrite it's definition with something inferior 🤣 One thing is for sure - My paddle is not coming out - upping the board size to use a paddle, I just don't see the point when I can do this... I could consider riding a low volume prone board if I can get up reasonably easy, pumping ability is doable on my 880 foil and paddling is not through a line break. When I get time to try I will report back :-) You'll have to suffer the dingle video next week through gritted teeth as it was 90% foil assist 🤐
Thanks for the brilliantly clear and inspiring video. I'm starting out on hopefully similar journey and wanting to ride small waves like you did in Dingle. Trying to do it on a bit of a budget and wondering if you think worth considering a used Foil Drive Assist Plus? thanks again for the great content!
Thanks for the kind words... Honestly - you'll be buying twice, so you might as well just get a gen 2. I know they are expensive, but right now it's the only option. I paid £6000 for mine including two batteries and a fast charger, thats like $8000. Hideous I know, but I'm fresh in from two mind altering days in the waves. It's just incredible for it round here and money is a thing, but these experiences are way more important in my eyes.
I see the mast is wider in the area of the cable between the pod and the board… I’ve been thinking about making something like this. Can you show us sometime how you made this cover for the cable?
Yup, faired in behind the cable, and I also had an anti cavitation plate on that a friend kicked off. I’ll make another for sure 👍 Easiest to use very thin sheets of g10
@@ptj6412 when I first came to it I arrived at the beach without tape and just rode the cable loose. The amount of cavitation was so high it was unusable. Next session I used tape and it was better, but not brilliant, so then I made a fairing and an anti-cavitation plate (every outboard has one) - the difference was noticeable. A friend kicked the plate off so I'm going to build another fairing and plate. Definitely think it's a gain in calmer water.
Hi Micheal, great input. Here we go then...im a sup surfer, snowboarder, skateboarder and wanna be foiler..however ive just done 60 laps of the big lad 🌞. So this looks just the ticket. Can you point me in the right direction of set-up having never been on a foil before. Firstly board size..for a beginner..i'm 84kgs i believe you started on a 65lt board..should i be looking at similar or larger 'downwind' board? Mast size; I note 78 appears the most common length? Motor height / cable length; 20 or 25? Im leaning towards 20 for pump progression etc.. Foil size i have no idea? Any helpful tips greatly appreciated..
short mast is good because you are adding 5cm in the box, board - rocker is the key - a 35lt flat rocker board goes before a 65lt high rocker board... volume is not really relevant, as the drive and the foil do the lifting so the volume is for when you use neither.. 20cm motor is a good start. I use an inset board now so it's 15cm, but all usable, so get a 20 and then source an inset board later. Bigger foil to start - with reasonable span and efficiency - makes things steadier and then downsize as you get bolder! good luck!!
@@ktwo-surf Cheers Micheal, just to clarify would you recommend a high rocker first over a flatter rocker? . If you can? From a perspective of a complete novice would you state getting up on foil is sufficiently easy to learn within a relatively short period? I don't mind the struggle as I believe that's sometimes more rewarding. A friend is pushing a full Electric system but I don't feel that's for me. FYI I'm based in Blyth South Beach which looks perfect for foiling..thanks again, Andy. 👍
@@AndrewCorner-qn9lk low rocker only - like old ak phazer... full electric wont ride waves unaided - you have to keep throttle on them or they stop like a stone, and they are heavy so you cant surf properly (carve rail to rail). We are having so much fun, and we live on one of the best coasts in the UK for it...
Question, do you think one could modify a small AK Phazer to fit the foil drive battery inside? I see yours looks a little like a Phazer but the dimensions are different. What tips can you give about board size please? Im 90kg and wing foil on a 76L Phazer with a 1030 Tracer. Thanks
Inset a Phazer - I think it's 100% doable, you just have to guard against twisting - I used some carbon tube to brace the box against the deck at 45 degrees. The board I made was 4'8"x21"x2" Were on v2 now, and gone slightly longer with more tail overhang, as some cm2 behind the drive is better for starting. I have a few in production for clients at 4'11x21, that's what I'd suggest as a minimum for you.. FD also has an ovberboost facility which you can use to get it skimming, then you have to throttle back to stand..
Also, get a bigger board until you have the takeoff dialled and then radically cut back. A low rocker 15/20 lt board goes before some 65/70 lt wing boards..
Really like your drop into the board. Im in Oz and using a North scoop 3'11 but would love to follow you with the insert and will make a new board to suit. Could you please give some feedback as to how you made the mount structural sound where you have so little thickness to play with? Do the mast bolts go all the way through the deck with washers expoxied in to spread load? You mentioned carbon tube to brace ... how have you made that work? Any feedback very much appreciated to mitigate trial and error! Cheers and Tks in advance @@ktwo-surf
@@barryjames7931 My board was made from the ground up, 10mm pvc mated to 50mm eps with m8 blind inserts in, then carbon and 3mm pvc lining the box. When the eps was routed down to expose the pvc in the inset I was concerned at leverage of the 10mm pvc so I braced the inserts to the underside of the hull (outside the box area) at 45 degrees with carbon tubes - structurally it worked perfectly. Problem is too much carbon cut off the signal and it was unusable - even though I tried attaching an external maytech antenna. The solution was a pvc sheet between board and FD unit that compressed all water from between the drive and the mounting surface on the board - but it's still not 100% right.. So the next board I will build in majority glass with carbon reinforcements in very small patches. I may document the next build and upload it. I'd much rather AK built them and put them into production ;-) I'm not a board builder by trade and starting to get a few orders through friends.
Perfect, Many thanks for your advice. I was concerned about making it strong and the effect of carbon on signal. I have a Armstrong 4'5 I tried with FD and whilst routing out the carbon tracks and installing a vent plug in the nose made it useable, it would still drop out from time to time just as I was taking off and dragging the tail a bit. I have no problems with the North scoop with signal . (BTW I totally agree with you in regards to board volume / size. Most people here are on thick "mini dw boards" around 45-55l and there is just no need to be riding such big boards. I have no problems getting going on moderate power on the 16l scoop and its soo much more fun to ride!) @@ktwo-surf
@@Truthseeker2000-e1s I rode strapless last session and it’s very free, but when things get spicy the strap allows you to make mistakes and recover. It also lets you crank wide high at foils over from rail to rail faster… I do admire the elite riders when you see them charging strapless though 🙏👍⚡️
Would you ever consider using FD assist for light wind winging? Seems like it would allow you to get up planing on much smaller board in very little wind with it set on cruise control then turn off cruise control once up on foil.
never.. for one the controller is impossible to use when holding the handles, and it has extra drag when off and submerged, more weight and if it's marginal either use a downwind board, bigger foil or just the foildrive on it's won and do a pump session.. Winging and FD are not the best bedfellows...
4’8x21”x2” volume is low, prob 15/20 lt I’m going slightly longer on v2 with 3” more out back for easier starting. Those dims are perfectly doable though at 80kg
I use an 85 for winging, dropped to 78 to compensate for the box, and when I sunk the box into the board I stayed with 78. I think shorter gives you more control, so I would err on the shorter side 👍🤷♂️
20cm - which when the box is inset becomes 15cm. It works well. smaller motor better for free flight - but you get cavitation issues having it too close to the board, so it's a trade off. Inset and 20 works well. I;d like to try a 15cm motor on the inset (effectively it will be 10cm) but they are so expensive I resent giving them any more money! lol
Yeah, they are expensive. You can make your own for a lot less. I do consider it a cornerstone of what I do these days, and to that end it's [paid for in the less wing/kite kit I have in the van, so where there is a will....
Great to see an unbiased opinion of someone who used foil drive for more than one session. Question from a Kent based sup surfer: I've never foiled in my life, it looks like foil drive is the easiest way into foiling. Bearing the cost in mind we seldom get conditions like on your video. How good is foil drive on very choppy surf? How good is it when it's practically flat? Can I pump down a 1ft wave that won't even break and is just rolling /forming? Would you still go for foil drive if you could not regularly have clean surf? Thanks!
Hi Sir, Thanks for the kind words. Hmm, if you don't have waves then I would probably take up winging first. Foiling with nothing in your hands is harder to learn. This is a great way to get into waves that you would not be able to catch, but I'm not certain it would be the easiest entry into the world of hydrofoil. I could be wrong though! getting it up onto foil is it's trick - these days with modern high aspect gliding foils you can ride just about anything - but, waves are the best with smaller front wings..
@@ktwo-surf Thanks for the reply. Paradoxically using a wing puts me off as in a sense its a permanent assist whereas foil drive is there only to get me out and enable me to downwind or ride on small bump waves unassisted. Do you have any recommendations for wing and board? I am thinking 1400cm2 high aspect wing with a 40l 4.5-5 ft board?
@@DigitalPosion I'm not sure to be honest - when you are up you want the kit you will want to be using for the discipline, at whatever standard and conditions you have - but clearly the board is now different as you want the best handling board with the most control you can get away with.. I started on 65lt, then found a small board (15 lt) 4'8x21x2" with a flat rockert and inset drive pod that gets up as easy as the 65lt, but is like nothing on your feet - that's all I use now.. you have a lot of trial and testing ahead, but that's part of the fun - learning - advancing and getting better, and the drive lets you do this so well, it's addictive!
Or the other angle, just brings ignorant rich people in to an environment they shouldn’t be in without paying dues first. Seen it over and over, usually the ones on the back of the rescue boat mid summer with £6k of broken new kit 🤣
I am an old surfer looking to start foiling. From where I sit foiling is the future of surfing especially given the crowds at my local break. We have a lot of waves that can only be surfed with a foil. Foil assist is a no brainer...it just makes sense. When the internet was introduced the world was sceptical and we all know how that went...Foils and electric motors for foils will go the same way....eventually. That was a really good idea with the recessing of the board/battery interface.
I think if you look at the alternatives of learning foiling this is a no brainer. Boat assisted lessons get expensive very quickly and you have to work around someone elses schedule. Buying a jetski is going to be expensive and you need someone else to pull you. Paddling for hundreds of hours into surf can take forever and many just quit. If you live in an area where wind is seasonal this is an incredible option to be able to get daily time on the water. thanks for putting together this review! I was just getting up and foiling on my wing and our season has now ended, so I was considering light wind wings and possibly a sup setup just for practice. I may forego all of that and just get one of these.
It's now almost October coming into the winter for us. I've not changed my mind - been a great year and this is clearly a new discipline on it's own. Been one of the best years in the water.
Same bullsh!t with emtb in the early days. I love my turbo levo, it has kept mtb fun as i get older. I kitesurf and wing foil and am looking forward to getting a foil drive for all the reasons you have given.
I see the direct parallel also
Just came from emtb videos have never seen this foil drive before and instantly saw the parallells.
Emtb rider here, as well as FoilDriver [Gen 1 and now Gen 2]. 50 years old. Best money invested!!! Get yours right away, with the big battery…
Just as a side note - sunday morning the forecast was good but I had to be home at 9am... I took the drive to the water at 0530, - 3 people out - 2hr 45 riding - did 3 batteries - 45km, 90 good waves (plus/minus). When I came out there were 60 surfers in the water, threw it in the van at 0845, home in 10 minutes.
Honestly, if you tallied all the waves up that I caught in my session, and then tallied all the waves caught by all the surfers as a collective, I would not be surprised if my count was higher.
I made sure I pulled off way before any surfers' takeoff points and had an absolute riot. There was no conflict, no dramas, just a ton of stoke, and a shed load of unpowered time on wave. People will always say that it's not purist, but how else can I get some much stoke compressed into such a short session?
Thanks for producing such great content! What are your local spots out of interest?
Well said - great introduction.!!!!!! I took the "hard and long route", and I am still looking at buying a foil assist ($$$$) for certain days here in the OuterBanks. We have swells so far out from shore (that never break) that would find you out of breath before you would ever reach them pumping or paddling.
Well reasoned and presented.........and yeah, I'm an Old School Surfer from SoCal, began ins '69, no leashes for a few years, and paddling out 100 yards only to lose the board and take a beating.......that process of learning IS character building, but time marches on, new technology happens, and early adaptors have fun. Just don't go to crowded established breaks, with that board it should be easy to mostly stick to breaks that are unreachable or considered not prime for paddle in traditional surfing. Remember, we're propelling ourselves and dodging other people for seconds or a few minutes worth of riding, while you're cruising for an hour at a time. Excellent video, many thanks!
Thanks James, good to hear the view of a time honoured surfer.
Thank you very much for making this fantastic video and sharing it with the world. This is my favorite video about the sensibilities of Foil Driving, and it's very relevant to me. I turn 68 tomorrow. I had a wonderful time learning to foil surf last year with a Foil Drive Assist Plus. I then decided to go after surf foiling the hard way, with only my mind and body. After months of frustration, I had only a few not-so-great rides to show for my effort. A few days ago, I decided to give up this crazy quest and become a Foil Driver again. I'm saving money for an Assist Max, and I'm hoping to be having much fun again before the end of 2024.
Thanks for the kind words, best wishes for the season ahead!
Great rundown and I really dig the cutout FD board design, great work on that! Hard not to agree that this will be the future direction for lots of FD boards. 👍🏻
I really appreciate your summary, I’ve been thinking for the past week how to inset my gen2, and I love your solution. I’m only 12 sessions into it now, come from surfing, windsurfing, windfoiling, and most recently winging…I’m old now and my shoulders keeping me from winging as much as I’d like, but I’m very optimistic about foil drive. Thanks again!
Thanks a lot for this! Life is short. We’re aging. Costly but so cool!!
Time is the fire in which we burn, which is why I think I'll only do one set of these so I can get back out on the water!!! 🤣
Intelligent,calm and comprehensive delivery mate.
Nailed it.
Very nice job!!! You hit all the angles that have crossed my mind as I start down this journey. Thanks!!
Really good, well considered discussion Mike, thank you. I make DIY ‘faux’ drives, currently have box on top of board between my feet, directly over the front foil. Looks awkward but actually easy to use because board is 5’6 Phazer and I can get a knee either side. Plan is to make a smaller board and sink batteries into the top. You mention you are going up in length on the next build, will you keep width and thickness the same?
Foil Zone forum is an incredible resource if anyone is considering DIY.
The 90L Phazer is a great option for down-winding, can easily move the box to the back of the board if I have to and paddle in. Do upwind wing, downwind assist sessions and it works so well. Thanks
Ive just ordered a foil drive gen 2. thanks for the inspiration!
There were three of us out yesterday on the best day so far, and though we still remember the pain of handing over the cash it has faded, and we do it all over again in a heartbeat.... It may cost, but get in early and you wont regret it...
Use the Gen 1 assist, because of less power I have to use my paddle quite a bit, I’m a paddler anyway so no probs with that and it keeps me fit, and I have to use the bumps so requires a bit of thinking about which in a way I like.
A great tool for sure, lots of days on the water I wouldn’t of otherwise and places I wouldn’t be at otherwise.
Excellent primer on e-assist foiling! 👍🏼
Great insight for new owners. I've recently got a Gen 2 for exactly this sped up learning idea being completely new to prone and all foiling and it's also working perfectly. Long time surfer but became apparent immediately that this journey would be a slog without the assistance of something like a foil drive assist. 100% money well spent so far. I'm now going to places and waves that even prone guys can't access 👍. The options now are endless and honestly it's taken the focus off integration within a lineup because now I can create my own. Enjoy 🙏
Totally well said. Yesterday we had our best day ever, 3 of us on drives on an isolated spot. Mind altering. Ridden over 120km in the last 2 days and well over half that was unassisted. This thing is just next level.
Great summary, thank you!
Thanks for sharing your foil drive story and experience. I think there are a lot of us on the fence with foil drive. I have been windsurfing since the early 80s switched to kiting in 2003, that increased my time on water drastically. I finally picked up wing foiling while in hood river for 3 weeks last fall, 2023, followed up with 3 weeks in the outer banks NC. Im going back to the outer banks this week for 3 weeks but i have elbow tendinitis from kiting and winging. I want to get on the water as much as possible so im considering picking up a foil drive at real in obx. But over 5K, that’s massive. Im turning 60 in a month and I dont know how many more years i will have enjoying water sports which has dominated my life for over 40 years. So will I get a foil drive to accellerate my foil progression, increase my days on water, and take it easy on my elbow, im still not sure but your video was very helpful. Thanks. Larry
@@leapnlarry I also kitesurf, wingfoil and foil drive. Foil driving waves is so much fun and the progression is very quick. It is expensive but totally worth it.
All Gain, No Pain 🤙🏴☠️💪
Ha ha, love it, and not wrong!
As someone who has kite foiled and wakefoiled with a pocket board (skipped the winging thing) wondering what size/volume board you started on and continue to use. Also what size front wing have you been using (sq cm2)? Thanks. Awesome video
Great run down and solid points.
Great discussion, it's also important to know the local waterway rule. In a lot a places powered craft are not allowed in the vicinity of swimming or surfing
there are rules popping up all over the place all the time. I'm lucky where I live - no stress at all.
Tow boogie amuses me.. how do you classify that? It's like a sea drone, unmanned, powered craft trailing a long line! haha
Great Job. I love my Gen2.
All I can say is I wish the old Kiteboarder forum was still going - The slagging would have been monumental! ( I am guessing parallels would be drawn between the need for a battery assisted device to get your kicks and other "pursuits") For the record I have a DIY version but I only use it when wearing a disguise! I am slightly worried that new FD users stray from the shallow end before they are ready to face a technical problem out in the deep end but - stay away from the crowds and have at it. Do paddle foilers have a place at the table at a crowded break ?- actually no - but having seen what Medano is like ( a complete free for all with only beginner surfers but every other conceivable craft including many FDs) it is surprisingly mellow. The coolest guys on the beach however were the pro paddle foilers for sure - if you are good enough ( not me - yet) you can ride around for ages without getting your kicks with a device that requires batteries!
Fantastic video!!! I subscribe to everything you've detailed and completely agree without a doubt. However, I have a question regarding: how did you calculate the position of the screws and the hole where the battery is positioned inside the board? I wonder about this because there are multiple factors:
The foil brand (some are more forward than others), for example: Armstrong has the mast more forward...
The type of wing or front blade depending on the size of the waves (or do you calculate based on the most common wing?).
The weight and size of the battery (slim or Max).
Because with the battery on the outside, it tends to lift the board as you mentioned, but when making the hole, that friction no longer exists and can change the position, or is that not the case?
I don't know, could you tell me how you did it? This idea of having a specific board for foiling seems very ingenious to me, and I'm definitely going to copy it. Thank you very much and sorry for the lengthy question.
I know my own foil position inside out.
If I build a board for anyone else I ask them to mark where the centre of their front heel is on the deck, then measure that distance to the front mast bolt. That lets me see where it needs to be in relation to my's design's outline.
As a rule, the more area behind the drive, the more efficient it is to get up, but you are right - some foils are quite different - yet most modern foils are close to each other in geometry these days. You still have brands like AXIS where you can move the fuselage position too, but most people find their sweet spot and stick with it.
That inset really makes the foildrive setup more appealing to use as the drag is bound to be reduced considerably.
I agree, and in my eyes it's a must. Having your foot directly on top of the drive unit gives so much more control, and removes a lot of the front foot pressure - so much so that you don't have to adjust your front foot position from drive to glide..
Great video! Thanks. The price is too crazy, whichever way you put it. Lot's of people can't afford that. The price has to come down a lot.
Yeah, it's a lot of coin. My bill with extra battery was £6000 - $7500. It's a lot. I kind of forgot the pain of writing the cheque now, just left with the riding. A bit like childbirth (I have been assured), lol.
same price as buying a 3, 4 and 5 liter alula wings that last 1 year.
look up foildrive paul cooper.
But there is no justification for that exaggerate price tag
@@joostgolsteyn3193sure there is. Simple supply and demand with no real competitors. You’re always free to attempt a DIY version or give Manta a try. I hear they have a lower entry price point
Love your board. Any chance of getting details of the build and dimension. Also more of your excellent logic to why this board. Cheers TC the Kiwi
Thanks for the kind words. that one was 4'8"x21x2" inset drive with a 10mm deck of pvc, through which I used 4x stainless blind T nuts that sat in the PVC. I used carbon tube bracing from the inset deck recess to the base of the hull at a 45 degree angle to stop twist. A shim of 3mm pvc was used to squeeze out the water between board and drive to aid signal - next one is 5' as I need some extra length behind the drive for a faster flatwater pickup, and majority glass construction as carbon is a signal killer :-/
@@ktwo-surf that’s excellent cheers. I am looking to have built 5’3 x 18 x2 and follow your insert design. I have a 5’3 x 19 with tracks forward. Have worked out my ideal placement. Now time to start the new board. My weight is 88kg and live the Armstrong ha 880 and 1080 foils. I look forward to your next vid.
Is anyone making yet an inset board with similar dimensions? Great Video btw… super to see your stoke….
Thanks for the kind words. I’ve heard of no-one inseting yet, it’s early days.
When I heard axis were bringing a board out I expected it to have this tech 🤷♂️
I work with AK and they are looking at it now…
Ebikes started the same way, but magically people aged, got bad knees, and suddenly very quietly they bought ebikes rather than quit. When you start bringing power to a previously unpowered sport there will be haters, and often they will have valid complaints. Giving back to the community and trying to not be the poster boy for bad etiquette is a good path... I think Efoiling and e-assist foiling opens up a huge amount of unused coastline...
you don't hear any backchat about emtb anymore here, it just quietly ousted the normal mtb's so these days nearly every one has a battery.
This is awesome Mike! Im waiting in the wings to see how these are and saving a bit each month 😂. Your inset on the board idea is fantastic well done. Hey long time since we discussed your supra mods over the phone 😊
I miss that car and those days!
Hey Mike, I’d like to get a board shaped like yours. What are your board dimensions and how deep is the inset? Carbon? I’m around 170lb and have been riding a 40L board. Thanks in advance.
I use 4'8x21x2" in this vid, new ones are 2" longer but all in the tail behind the drive as it helps counteract nose lift when starting.
it's a game changer for sure!
Good video Mike, I genuinely think you should try prone foiling, you constantly say how hard it is, and yep, it is hard, but it's not that hard... With a big volume board and a big foil it's relatively easy and forgiving. All the waves in this vid would be perfect for it, even the small ones. My first go prone I got some flights, and that was three years ago and I wasn't a great surfer, I'm still very much a below average surfer. You've got the foil skills, paddling isn't that hard and I'm sure you'll realise it's easier than they say. Small boards and small foils make it hard, but paddling in and flying along on a wave is no greater feeling in my opinion... Give it a try... Let me know how you get on.
I will, I will...
Thing is, my life is not rich when it comes to time.
If I want to do some exercise - it's an hours' hit class, not a full day at the beach. I can do 60 waves in an hour easy, including ALL the best waves, and you just cannot do that prone...
Made me laugh - one comment was "all gain and no pain" - not wrong.
Also - you'd better get some anti twitch medication as everywhere I look, everyone calls riding a foil assist prone. Not me, I've now towed the line, but everywhere I look they are coming for your sport, wanting to overwrite it's definition with something inferior 🤣
One thing is for sure - My paddle is not coming out - upping the board size to use a paddle, I just don't see the point when I can do this... I could consider riding a low volume prone board if I can get up reasonably easy, pumping ability is doable on my 880 foil and paddling is not through a line break. When I get time to try I will report back :-)
You'll have to suffer the dingle video next week through gritted teeth as it was 90% foil assist 🤐
Thanks for the brilliantly clear and inspiring video. I'm starting out on hopefully similar journey and wanting to ride small waves like you did in Dingle. Trying to do it on a bit of a budget and wondering if you think worth considering a used Foil Drive Assist Plus? thanks again for the great content!
Thanks for the kind words... Honestly - you'll be buying twice, so you might as well just get a gen 2. I know they are expensive, but right now it's the only option. I paid £6000 for mine including two batteries and a fast charger, thats like $8000. Hideous I know, but I'm fresh in from two mind altering days in the waves. It's just incredible for it round here and money is a thing, but these experiences are way more important in my eyes.
What do you think about slingshot motor foil assist?
Thank you for this video it was brilliant! And very helpfull!!
Do you mean Slingshot as in the kite brand?
I see the mast is wider in the area of the cable between the pod and the board… I’ve been thinking about making something like this. Can you show us sometime how you made this cover for the cable?
Yup, faired in behind the cable, and I also had an anti cavitation plate on that a friend kicked off.
I’ll make another for sure 👍
Easiest to use very thin sheets of g10
@@ktwo-surf do you notice a difference from the tape method?
@@ptj6412 when I first came to it I arrived at the beach without tape and just rode the cable loose. The amount of cavitation was so high it was unusable. Next session I used tape and it was better, but not brilliant, so then I made a fairing and an anti-cavitation plate (every outboard has one) - the difference was noticeable. A friend kicked the plate off so I'm going to build another fairing and plate. Definitely think it's a gain in calmer water.
Hi Micheal, great input. Here we go then...im a sup surfer, snowboarder, skateboarder and wanna be foiler..however ive just done 60 laps of the big lad 🌞. So this looks just the ticket. Can you point me in the right direction of set-up having never been on a foil before. Firstly board size..for a beginner..i'm 84kgs i believe you started on a 65lt board..should i be looking at similar or larger 'downwind' board?
Mast size; I note 78 appears the most common length?
Motor height / cable length; 20 or 25? Im leaning towards 20 for pump progression etc..
Foil size i have no idea? Any helpful tips greatly appreciated..
short mast is good because you are adding 5cm in the box, board - rocker is the key - a 35lt flat rocker board goes before a 65lt high rocker board...
volume is not really relevant, as the drive and the foil do the lifting so the volume is for when you use neither..
20cm motor is a good start. I use an inset board now so it's 15cm, but all usable, so get a 20 and then source an inset board later.
Bigger foil to start - with reasonable span and efficiency - makes things steadier and then downsize as you get bolder!
good luck!!
@@ktwo-surf Cheers Micheal, just to clarify would you recommend a high rocker first over a flatter rocker? . If you can? From a perspective of a complete novice would you state getting up on foil is sufficiently easy to learn within a relatively short period? I don't mind the struggle as I believe that's sometimes more rewarding. A friend is pushing a full Electric system but I don't feel that's for me. FYI I'm based in Blyth South Beach which looks perfect for foiling..thanks again, Andy. 👍
@@AndrewCorner-qn9lk low rocker only - like old ak phazer... full electric wont ride waves unaided - you have to keep throttle on them or they stop like a stone, and they are heavy so you cant surf properly (carve rail to rail). We are having so much fun, and we live on one of the best coasts in the UK for it...
@@ktwo-surf Cheers Mike, appreciate your advice and help..hope to see you on the waves in the future 👌
Question, do you think one could modify a small AK Phazer to fit the foil drive battery inside? I see yours looks a little like a Phazer but the dimensions are different. What tips can you give about board size please? Im 90kg and wing foil on a 76L Phazer with a 1030 Tracer. Thanks
Inset a Phazer - I think it's 100% doable, you just have to guard against twisting - I used some carbon tube to brace the box against the deck at 45 degrees.
The board I made was 4'8"x21"x2"
Were on v2 now, and gone slightly longer with more tail overhang, as some cm2 behind the drive is better for starting. I have a few in production for clients at 4'11x21, that's what I'd suggest as a minimum for you..
FD also has an ovberboost facility which you can use to get it skimming, then you have to throttle back to stand..
Also, get a bigger board until you have the takeoff dialled and then radically cut back. A low rocker 15/20 lt board goes before some 65/70 lt wing boards..
Really like your drop into the board. Im in Oz and using a North scoop 3'11 but would love to follow you with the insert and will make a new board to suit. Could you please give some feedback as to how you made the mount structural sound where you have so little thickness to play with? Do the mast bolts go all the way through the deck with washers expoxied in to spread load? You mentioned carbon tube to brace ... how have you made that work? Any feedback very much appreciated to mitigate trial and error! Cheers and Tks in advance @@ktwo-surf
@@barryjames7931 My board was made from the ground up, 10mm pvc mated to 50mm eps with m8 blind inserts in, then carbon and 3mm pvc lining the box. When the eps was routed down to expose the pvc in the inset I was concerned at leverage of the 10mm pvc so I braced the inserts to the underside of the hull (outside the box area) at 45 degrees with carbon tubes - structurally it worked perfectly.
Problem is too much carbon cut off the signal and it was unusable - even though I tried attaching an external maytech antenna. The solution was a pvc sheet between board and FD unit that compressed all water from between the drive and the mounting surface on the board - but it's still not 100% right.. So the next board I will build in majority glass with carbon reinforcements in very small patches.
I may document the next build and upload it. I'd much rather AK built them and put them into production ;-)
I'm not a board builder by trade and starting to get a few orders through friends.
Perfect, Many thanks for your advice. I was concerned about making it strong and the effect of carbon on signal. I have a Armstrong 4'5 I tried with FD and whilst routing out the carbon tracks and installing a vent plug in the nose made it useable, it would still drop out from time to time just as I was taking off and dragging the tail a bit. I have no problems with the North scoop with signal . (BTW I totally agree with you in regards to board volume / size. Most people here are on thick "mini dw boards" around 45-55l and there is just no need to be riding such big boards. I have no problems getting going on moderate power on the 16l scoop and its soo much more fun to ride!) @@ktwo-surf
What board did you modify? Looks good!
bespoke build - 4'8x21"x2", 3kg, though has to go back in and remove some carbon as no reception! lol
@@ktwo-surf Front foot strap as well, I often wonder why people don't use these more.
@@Truthseeker2000-e1s I rode strapless last session and it’s very free, but when things get spicy the strap allows you to make mistakes and recover.
It also lets you crank wide high at foils over from rail to rail faster…
I do admire the elite riders when you see them charging strapless though 🙏👍⚡️
Would you ever consider using FD assist for light wind winging? Seems like it would allow you to get up planing on much smaller board in very little wind with it set on cruise control then turn off cruise control once up on foil.
never.. for one the controller is impossible to use when holding the handles, and it has extra drag when off and submerged, more weight and if it's marginal either use a downwind board, bigger foil or just the foildrive on it's won and do a pump session.. Winging and FD are not the best bedfellows...
What size board are you using with the foildrive please ? Great summary thanks.
4’8x21”x2” volume is low, prob 15/20 lt
I’m going slightly longer on v2 with 3” more out back for easier starting.
Those dims are perfectly doable though at 80kg
There is no justification for that exaggerated price tag
yeah, I was not a fan of the price that is for sure.
I'd make one, but don't have the time right now.
Thanks. Much appreciated. Also do you have advice on mast length?
I use an 85 for winging, dropped to 78 to compensate for the box, and when I sunk the box into the board I stayed with 78.
I think shorter gives you more control, so I would err on the shorter side 👍🤷♂️
@@ktwo-surf Thanks
I mean:
STOKE
FOIL
BOOST
The innovative electric propulsion system, designed to get you foiling more.
cheaper, which is a start, but would have to try one to be sure.
What size cable do you ride ?
20cm - which when the box is inset becomes 15cm. It works well.
smaller motor better for free flight - but you get cavitation issues having it too close to the board, so it's a trade off.
Inset and 20 works well. I;d like to try a 15cm motor on the inset (effectively it will be 10cm) but they are so expensive I resent giving them any more money! lol
I get it, but there is no bloody way ill have the inkling to spend 15-20k on one of these.
Yeah, they are expensive.
You can make your own for a lot less. I do consider it a cornerstone of what I do these days, and to that end it's [paid for in the less wing/kite kit I have in the van, so where there is a will....
Great to see an unbiased opinion of someone who used foil drive for more than one session.
Question from a Kent based sup surfer: I've never foiled in my life, it looks like foil drive is the easiest way into foiling. Bearing the cost in mind we seldom get conditions like on your video. How good is foil drive on very choppy surf? How good is it when it's practically flat? Can I pump down a 1ft wave that won't even break and is just rolling /forming? Would you still go for foil drive if you could not regularly have clean surf? Thanks!
Hi Sir, Thanks for the kind words.
Hmm, if you don't have waves then I would probably take up winging first. Foiling with nothing in your hands is harder to learn. This is a great way to get into waves that you would not be able to catch, but I'm not certain it would be the easiest entry into the world of hydrofoil. I could be wrong though!
getting it up onto foil is it's trick - these days with modern high aspect gliding foils you can ride just about anything - but, waves are the best with smaller front wings..
@@ktwo-surf Thanks for the reply. Paradoxically using a wing puts me off as in a sense its a permanent assist whereas foil drive is there only to get me out and enable me to downwind or ride on small bump waves unassisted. Do you have any recommendations for wing and board? I am thinking 1400cm2 high aspect wing with a 40l 4.5-5 ft board?
@@DigitalPosion I'm not sure to be honest - when you are up you want the kit you will want to be using for the discipline, at whatever standard and conditions you have - but clearly the board is now different as you want the best handling board with the most control you can get away with..
I started on 65lt, then found a small board (15 lt) 4'8x21x2" with a flat rockert and inset drive pod that gets up as easy as the 65lt, but is like nothing on your feet - that's all I use now..
you have a lot of trial and testing ahead, but that's part of the fun - learning - advancing and getting better, and the drive lets you do this so well, it's addictive!
@@ktwo-surf cheers I better look up some used gear or this will get silly
Where do you live?
we are based in north yorkshire - united kingdom. New video coming on the next generation of boards in the next few weeks.
the only reason people diss foil boards and foil drives are that they are too poor to actually own one. get a job slackers.
😂
Or the other angle, just brings ignorant rich people in to an environment they shouldn’t be in without paying dues first. Seen it over and over, usually the ones on the back of the rescue boat mid summer with £6k of broken new kit 🤣
@@bryndampney758 Paying dues? It's a free world ffs.
Yeah yeah scam drive
corny
Intelligent,calm and comprehensive delivery mate.
Nailed it.
Thanks for the kind words 🙂