One tragic instance of this was people thinking Lolita was a horny romance book. Nabokov was a survivor of childhood abuse, and the entire narrative was from the pov of a monster excusing his own behavior.
I don’t remember who said it, but they described the story as being told through an unreliable narrator, and as soon as I heard that I was like “Oh, that makes so much more since”.
There's that social belief that it's the woman's fault when a man misbehaves towards her. As if he was a helpless puppet and she had hold of the strings. Yes, even if she's underaged.
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@@julietfischer5056 the thing is that in Lolita he lies to himself so he is "the good guy".
Yeah, if you've heard the Police song, Don't Stand So Close to Me. It references the man from Lolita as being like the reluctant teacher in the song who is hit on by a young girl...so apparently Sting didn't understand the book either...lol...
One of those guys who started a real life Fight Club IN COLLEGE is now one half of Cinema Therapy. Alan Seawright is his name - he has explained in many videos that as a young man he was angry, upset and frustrated - partly because his family didn't support him when he struggled in school and had no faith he could work as a filmmaker. He's had to do a lot of work on himself.
@@OlieB I believe they made an episode about Fight Club, so that ought to be the one. If not I can only narrow it down to being within the last year...
Another prime example of a character who gets idolized by people that missed the point is The Dark Knight joker. The very fact that people keep trying to prop the character up as a "sigma male" is a prime example of why the very idea of a sigma male is stupid. Especially since he keeps lying about his motivations throughout the entire movie. He says he's an agent of chaos and just does things on a whim despite the fact everything has been micro planned and there's literally a part where he's reading out a speech he wrote!
@ShrimpFriedStudios here's the problem: you say something ironically enough times, you will inevitably say it to someone who takes it at face value and completely misses the irony. And online, when ironic statements can meet millions and millions of people, eventually thousands of people unironically believe it
I was young when I watched Breaking Bad, so I didn't pick up in the beginning how awful Walter was, but when my father watched it he hated Walt from the start. Definitely a difference in wisdom.
I admired his intelligence but hated his pride. He reminds me of what i hate about myself. Jesse I feel sorry for though no one came make me not feel sorry for him.
The one thing I liked about Walter is he did love his family. He didnt go out and cheat on Skyler when he had the money and power to do as he wishes. He let all the blame fall on him when he called Skyler, calling her a bitch for not following his instructions when clearly Skyler herself can be arrested for laundering his money. He also made sure that both his children will receive the profit of his hardwork even after his death.
@@CrackedPropaneit was funny when walter got that job offer with the health care and he threw a fit as if it was a ceo asking him to watch his wife get fucked in order to keep his job. But that really does show the character that the cancer was just a last act freedom to do whatever he wanted because he was going to die soon anyway. And the saving money for his family was an excuse to live on the edge.
I still can't believe people think Skyler was ever in the wrong. Even if she can be a bitch in some moments, sure, but like if your husband is hiding all this from you while also making vague threats toward you and other people, would you NOT want to know what's going on? Especially if it's all to "protect" you?
@@disposable_income_andy the only thing i hated about Skyler is her cheating with Ted, but youve gotta give her slack because with all the money and power Walt has for all she knows he wouldve been also been banging chicks left to right
There is a comic arc where Batman is wrong, and he realizes it after the fact. Bruce bribes his way into jury duty in order to besmirch Batman's reputation and ensure the subject goes free.
Also in White Knight, when he gets imprisoned by the GCPD, he waits to be released by Jack and Gordon instead of break out, and admits that he has problems with violent tendencies to Commissioner Gordon and cements an alliance with the Gotham Police and reveals his secret identity.
I always prefer a Batman that has Bruce Wayne be adamantly against his existence. Like, he can't say it smartly, but he has moments of "This is stupid and shouldn't be nessicary. I hope for Batman to one day not be needed. Anyway, I'm launching another charity for abuse victims, increasing donations to Arkham's janitors specifically and hiring people in need right now so I gotta go."
Blues Clues had a pride episode. Seasame Street was banned often because it showed different races living on the same street. Mr Rodgers neighborhood was almost taken off the air over the episodes with the black postman. Kids shows have always had the "radical" idea of, as you put it, "don't be a dick."
Yeah there are some characters I like and their monologues or ideas are cool but in the end they are wrong or terrible people. It’s like all the, for example, the villains who have a point trope. So many people like to say the villain is right because they are pointing out something wrong in society but rather than fixing the problem, they just go to killing innocent people
I can completely see the wrong in a character after the 2nd watch but bc of circumstances, I romanticize them for their morals, not so much their tactics. But it's the heart that counts Ig.
Light Yagami from _Death Note_ definitely belongs in this category. I never quite fell into full-on idolisation when I first watched the series, but I was at least in the "has a point" camp.
It got to the point when Jump Force came out people were actually surprised to see him categorized as a villain character (though not playable). I never understood that mindset. I mean this is a guy who, from the first kill, began murdering people not merely out of a sense of justice like some people like to claim, but for the rush of power he felt from it. Light truly believed he was better than everyone else even before he got the notebook, simply because he was intelligent, but then given power his ego spun wildly out of control and got many innocent people AND himself killed. People act like he was bringing justice to the world, because that's what Light _says_ he's doing (repeatedly and with increasingly evil looks on his face), but that's a lie. Truth is he's the definition of selfish. Think about it: his reactions to the harrasser and hostage situation at the very beginning were more akin to vague curiosity as to what he could use the notebook for instead of horror and indignation at the situation the victims were in at the time. He acted like he didn't care about the Kira monkier, but he quickly adopted it and was clearly smug from the attention. Dude legit thought he was "chosen" until Ryuk told him "lol no, I just wanna have fun", but he basically continued to believe it anyway, calling himself a God. Then his whole thing with L and N and M and the other investigators was 100% him trying to "win", not improve the world or save anyone. I think the biggest nail in the coffin is this though: the names that Light wrote in the notebook? The criminals? Where did he get those names from? Criminal registry. These were people who were already arrested, already trialed and potentially already serving sentences. No thought as to if they'd been framed or misjudged. No thought as to if they were rehabilitating or rehabilitated. And of course nothing would or could be done for criminals who weren't caught or identified. He just killed them because he had the power to do so and it was easy to justify. Despite being anonymous, it got him praise and attention. And that ego stroking was what really mattered most to him. Edit: Oh yeah and I just remembered the bonus story where a young kid gets the Death Note. He kills a bully by writing their name and is instantly terrified and regretful. I think he also freaks out and kills a cop or detective (don't know if on purpose or accident). Then some other kid gets a Death Note as well and tries to kill all the bullies and the cops and himself (wow, no real life parallels there) but the first kid convinces him to not do it. Luckily there's an eraser in that story that miraculously brings people back to life when their name is erased. Both kids actually tell the police the whole story and demonstrate the notebooks power by killing one of them with it and resurrecting them. I know there are other short semi-sequels and spin-offs but this is an example of notebook holders who actually have morals.
@@conspiracypanda1200 Come to think of it, during his self-imposed amnesia phase he seems to be more appalled at the accusation of being Kira than at any of the acts committed. Even when "innocent" he still had an inflated ego.
If you look at the comments for the death note musical song Where is the Justice people are super hyping up Light and saying he's right. It's terrifying.
We've all felt the desire for someone we hate, or for an unrepentant criminal, to drop dead. Or wished we could wave a wand so that people would tell the objective truth. That's what makes Light (morbidly) appealing. What would _we_ do with a Death Note, once we found out it worked? Because there was a time in my life when I would have written my tormentors' names in a notebook and how they'd die, just out of anger and frustration. If they then died that way, and I found out? I don't know.
This is in a different vein, but something I get upset at people for not understanding is the movie 500 Days of Summer. Too often I see the argument coming down on the side of Tom was a great guy and it was wrong for Summer to treat him like that, or that Summer is a standard Manic Pixie Dream Girl with no definition. The point of the movie is we see the entirety of the movie from Tom's point of view which incorrectly skews our view on Summer and the relationship. Summer literally spells out her expectations for the relationship, but we get bombarded by the narrator telling us what is Tom is wanting out of the relationship instead. I think the perfect example of how crummy a boyfriend Tom was is the scene where Summer is explaining a dream she has and ends with "I never told anyone about this." Makes it seem like Tom is a great guy and important to her. Then what was the dream she was talking about. Nobody knows because the narrator was talking over Summer telling us Tom's completely unrelated thoughts in that moment. Summer just shared something she had never shared with anyone else, and Tom didn't hear it because he was too busy thinking about himself.
Any time someone complains that a story's moral is hamfisted and forced I will remind them that some people watch anti-war movies and think they glorify war, watch anti-capitalism movies they think promote capitalism, and watch anti-racism movies and believe they are pro-racism. Sometimes the protagonists really need to turn to the camera and say "being a bad person is bad" and some viewers still won't get it.
It's a double-edged sword, because the other side of that problem is that too much explicit stating of the "thesis" of the work makes it less effective, makes it hit less hard and leave a smaller impact. It's why so much dyed-in-the-wool Christian fiction falls flat on its face, for example. You can't hammer too much on the nail of "this character/action is bad" before it lessens the effect the story might have. The problem lies more with how people are taught and encouraged to engage with media in my opinion, not how the media itself is made so much.
Yeah, I really wish critical thought exercises were taught in every class, even maths. Like, imagine how much better at math ppl would be if they were told to solve a math problem BEFORE they knew the formula, and then were told the formula afterwards. They'd have a much better understanding of how mathematics actually work if you explained WHY a formula works too. I failed math so many times dood. TwT It'd also help identify kids that need extra help too like my ADHD havin ass.
I think it was Tom Morello that made a comment online and someone told him that they would stop listening to his music if he was "woke". Someone had gone around 30 years without realizing a band called Rage Against the Machine was political....
Didn't he clown on that reply by asking "What machine did he think we rage against?" (That and the time someone told him he shouldn't give political opinions he's just an entertainer and he replied by pointing out he majored in Pol. Sci. were some of my favorite moments.)
Earlier this week, Hadao Kojima himself tweeted about his exploration of the use of AI in warfare in MTG, and someone replied, TO KOJIMA HIMSELF, "Metal Gear isn't political"
Thats..... Just wow. First. That is one of the MOST politically motivated series I have ever played. So heavily draped in both Satire and just actual political references. Its not even funny. But to tell the person that Created it what it is?
@@wesleypatterson2284 Yeah. I do not imagine if they had any self awareness they would want that to stay up. Maybe (hopefully) after a little thought they removed it. I legit can not fathom how they came to the conclusion besides just a knee jerk reaction. But To be fair. I fail to comprehend a LOT about people now adays. So yeah.
The whole, "stop making things political," argument is a weak ass way of saying, "I don't want to hear this," but without the gumption to actually say it. As people like that would say, that's a serious beta move.
To be fair, I'm pretty sure Armstrong's "I don't write my own speeches" line is referencing to his character lore-wise rather than literally in that scene. He flips a LOT during his scenes, but he canonically doesn't write his public speeches. It's even mentioned in the "leaked" audio as part of MGR's promotion leading up to the game where he's on a call with someone and thanks them for a speech they wrote for him, as it did wonders for his ratings. Armstrong does have some weird depth for essentially a joke character, like the "weak" being less of actually physically weak and more people who use twitter. It can be taken as literal, but like everything else Kojima had a hand in writing in, it also goes deeper into actual lore. Also Armstrong is just an amazing villain and that fight combined with that music will never lose its magic. I'll admit, most of the looking into his character is more me coping with the fact that idolizing a man who uses orphan brains in militarized police is a bad thing
Yeah, I think they missed what Armstrong was actually ralking about by taking him at face value. He's absolutely a might makes right, take the power into your own hands type. But there is a tinge of subtlety to what those means, but they become obvious if you check the japanese version of his dialogue.
The greatest part about the Batman is when he realises what he's been doing is wrong and causing more harm than good and he starts doing the good thing and focuses on helping people and inspiring hope. That's what batman should be, the hope and growth that comes out of pain .not any of the Frank Miller bullshit.
Isn't it funny how kids shows universally teach lessons like acceptance, sharing, forgiveness and then the older folks who made that content wonders why young folks are so interested in accepting others, the inequality of wealth, the rehabilitation of convicts instead of the punishment of them, and so on. They literally taught us these lessons then got mad that we are trying to live by them.
Kids shows? It even goes back to adult shows, heroes of shows like Bonanza, Gunsmoke, or The Rifleman, The Lone Ranger etc. were never racist, or sexist, and generally opposed to anyone that was ( which was pretty much anyone else they came across. Yet the society that grew up on these shows didn't adopt those qualities even though those qualities were being shown as what a good person would uphold. Our entertainment has always been hypocritical to some extent.
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@@NelsonStJames some people grew up with Superman but in their minds he was Homelander.
Lindsey ellis actually made great commentary on this with the transformers films. If the character is framed as cool for ninety five percent of the time or if they're friend as being stupid, All the other nuance goes out the window. The transformer's example is that megan fox's character has a much better back story and reason to be in the Movie but because she's framed as a sex object people think she sucks.
She had a lot of interesting ideas I never realized it until she pointed it out I am sad she was chased off cause she always had something interesting to say
@@animeking1357 Her back story is that she is the daughter of a mechanic who was arrested for boosting cars. And she had to spend a long time in juvee because she refused to write out her dad. Also because her father was mechanic she has incredible knowledge of how cars work. Midway through the film she's the one who realized that bumblebee isn't a normal car.
The Batman issue is one that's been bothering me for a long while. People read the dark knight returns or the killing Joke (which are great stories given the right context,) and start thinking that it's the definitive batman. That's how you get Snyder's Batman gunning people down and indirectly murdering people in prison.
@@sen5i In what issue? DC established his not kill rule in his first year so well before 1954. So far as I know he only shot one person in desperations and vocally lamented it when he did. And that was Batman #1 to stop Hugo Strange's henchmen from dropping mutated monster men in a populated area and killing people.
@@sen5i that was bob kane's Batman, not bill finger's Batman whom we've followed since before the comics code. All the comics code did was change the tone and type of villains he fought
I don't know if I'd put Killing Joke Batman in the same category as Dark Knight Returns Batman. Batman is trying to save Joker and rehabilitate him the whole time. Though the ending is debatable as to whether or not Batman Kills Joker.
I don't quite understand how you get from Dark Knight Returns and Killing Joke to Snyders Batman. In Dark Knight Returns Batman only shoots one guy and that's it and that was a heightened situation somewhere in the middle, if I remember correctly that's one of 2 moments where he actually holds a gun and the only one where he kills someone. In Killing Joke he doesn't even as much as pick up a gun. Not to mention killing somebody. Is that really the connection Snyder made or just something people say?
I am one of those nerdy young men. And even though I try to keep my head out of those mindsets, every now and then a thought creeps in and asks the question "am I enough"? My girlfriend has a type and I know that. Not really about body type with her but face and hair and such. Sometimes that comes to my mind and I ask her if I can be more her type she tells me "I don't think you can and I don't want you to. I still think you're cute and I love you" and after watching this, I realised that I didn't get what she was actually telling me whenever she said that and that I don't appreciate enough whenever she tells me that I'm enough the way I am and that, even though there might be people out there who might fit better to her, she still chose me and loves me. You guys are amazing! I hope Fact Fiend and the Untitled Side Channel will be around for a long time to come. Keep being awesome!
The problem is what women say they want and what they do are different.(so do men, but I have found asking women to be unreliable) Billions is spent on Psychological research to use this information to sell us shit.
To prove lack of self awareness, the sigma male was a piss-take at alpha male mindsets (primarily in the form of memes) and there are now people who unironically refer to themselves as sigma males all over the place. Edit: Grammar
IIRC sigma male was made up by Vox Day; he created his own version of that kind of dominance hierarchy to include the gamma and omega male, among others. When he was asked what category he fell into, he created the sigma male to justify him not qualifying for the category of alpha according to his own definitions So now it lends itself to odd people with delusions of grandeur and no self awareness
My uncle unironically called me a beta once. Knowing he loves fish I asked why he was calling me an airbreathing tropical fish. Yes, I know it's not spelled the same way, but is shut him up.
Each time I hear an unifornic Sigma male proclamation I instantly go "JUZDIEZELLOOOOOOOO" because all I can think of is Sigma from Megaman X when he's a zombie.
I hope if you guys do a follow up episode of this, you should definitely talk about Patrick Bateman whos the poster boy of misunderstood character's being idolized by weird men online. Its frustrating not being able to discuss this movie because of how fundamentally misunderstood it is online.
I think the Skylar hatred can also be on a subconscious level of - "oh, this'll be a dull scene" Just because regular family stuff just isn't as fun to watch as action
Oh that definitely has an effect too, especially if you watch it at a younger age. I remember feeling the awkward tension in those scenes when I was in HS, but I didn't appreciate the depth of what that tension meant and just found em annoying and exhausting
@brunoshiffman5343 even as someone who thinks she's WAAAAY too hated as a character, that scene still makes me shudder. Horrible experience, and tbh I think that's how they intended that scene to be received lol
I think it's more "Skylar is being nagging towards my big pimp Daddy that I wanna be, so shut up annoying woman and let cool drug Daddy be cool Drug Daddy so I can pretend I'm him"
something to note i feel is the importance of charisma, a lot of people in breaking bad for example could be considered bad people and aren’t loathed and many who could be considered good people but are loathed, Skyler for example, it’s not a matter of being a good person it’s a matter of lacking charisma which makes her understandably unlikable to many and is what makes Walter, Gus, The salamancas, and so on more likable. Kind of like a rpg, it doesn’t matter how right you are if you have no charisma people wont like you and if they don’t like you they wont support you.
I want to hug you guys so badly i love you so much You have no idea how happy i felt hearing trans rights being discussed. These issues genuinely affect my entire life and it feels so great to have people talking about them with something more nuanced and logical than blind hate.
I was in a play, called the producers, which is a musical written by Mel Brooks and I play the ex-Nazi who wrote the play Springtime for Hitler. It's a hilarious production, and I had a lot of fun doing it because I got to yell at people and toss them around a little bit. Unfortunately, one of my dumb friends, when discussing neo-Nazis, thought that I agreed with them and liked them, because I played that role, not understanding that it was a satirical role written by a Jewish man who served in World War II. Some people really genuinely don't get what acting is, and that you don't have to agree with the kind of person that you were playing to play that person, because it is the sign of an intelligent mind to entertain an idea without believing in it.
I used to be in a different high school than the rest of high school during my first semester and I was floored, baffled, when I heard guys unironically loving and saying Cartman was their favorite character and the best character out of South Park. I genuinely don't know what those guys had in their heads. I'm more afraid of life and society, of people, the more I get to know people and get to learn how violent, mindless and unreflective they are. I know it's a cliche but as a sociology major, it's really heartbreaking to learn how people are.
I mean, Cartman's one of my favorite characters, and I think he's one of the best characters in South Park, but that's BECAUSE he's so horrible. Neither of those things mean I approve of his actions.
@@korganrocks3995 and I agree, I found it so weird when most for the guys and a few girls in the classroom had the same idea, it was a private school as opposed to the rest of my high school, I think that's an important detail and they didn't know each other prior to this. This may speak more about the desensitization of highly privileged people than about anything else, though.
The fans misunderstanding of Rorschach (mostly thanks to the movie) has infuriated me for years. It isn't just him psychotically beating random people senseless, Rorschach is also overtly sexist, racist and homophobic. He repeatedly insults and belittles his friends. He has an open respect for the complete monster Comedian, even calling his attempted rape of Silk Specter a "moral lapse". Hell, take the infamous fryer scene. The fans love quoting "You're locked in here with me!" and propping it up as a supreme badass moment. But if you've read the comics, the scene is immediately followed by his psychiatrist describing the horrific burns of the prisoner, lamenting Rorschach's declining mental state and marking the beginning of the psychiatrist's own mental decline from dealing with Rorschach. "I'm not locked in here with you, you're locked in here with me!" isn't the fearless boast of a badass, it's the psychotic lashing out of a pathetic and broken man. This is why media literacy should be taught more in school.
Sure that's what the writer intended. But let's really take it into scope of the story. A mentally unstable man Stood against a god and Rich genius psychopath And compromised heroes That killed so many people To have A false piece. Like the Test his based off of He sure does know how to unveil the true nature of the man It looks upon him.
"You're locked in here with me!" Can confirm I'm guilty of saying this but I didn't know it was from this series. I started saying it after seeing people use it with Doom and it's the Doom Guy saying it to demons.
@@Cheepchipsableindeed, it's almost funny how many people criticized the movie for not being a 1:1 of the comic and then you've people arguing from the comic pov with people who only watched the movie.
“talk to a woman that you trust, and that you aren’t trying to sleep with” is advice that honestly, if everyone took, would fix like, minimum 30% of the problems in the world
Funny how someone might hear that and start wondering which women in their lives are like that and won't even briefly consider someone like their mother, a sister, or any other family member.
@@Cheepchipsable did you know that there are estimates that as many as half of all US adults are functionally illiterate? meaning they can decode letters into words, but cannot read well enough to synthesize those words into concrete ideas. Sometimes, I really find that number hard to believe. and then I check my youtube replies.
THANK YOU SO MUCH for your support of the trans community. I was totally unprepared to hear Karl passionately defend my rights in this video, but I apparently needed to hear that. It gave me happy tears and made me feel so seen. You're amazing. I wish I could work with you somehow.
as another trans person (coincidentally named kelly) whos been scared about coming out to people because of the things happening right now. i also am extremely thanksfull and wasn’t expecting youse to have that conversation and it kinda made my day
There's been a lot of support for the Trans community from the Fact Fiend crew before, I really suggest you going back to the earliest videos of their catalog in the Fact Friend channel if you're new-ish to the channel and you might catch a glimpse of their ethics and political stances. They're the greatest RUclips channel in my opinion.
I hope you both, Kelly and Kelly, are doing great and that people gives you all the respect and love you deserve!!! Send you a hug, much love and positive energy!
Remember asking Karl on a livestream about his opinion on Graham Linehan, given he likes The IT Crowd. His response was "Yeah he's a bellend" before going on to explain to the audience that Graham tried to defund a trans children's charity and (at the time) Hbomberguy's DK64 stream was going on to spite glinner and raise money for that same charity. So yeah Karl is a good egg.
To be fair to Batman, the guy came to him swinging a machete. The main purpose of why he did that, was to send a message to the group to stop their activities of harrasing and beating people. If you noticed what they were looking at on their phone earlier in the subway, you would see this gang is doing this stuff all around Gotham. This was supposed to be a clear message for them to stop, and while extreme, I think that is the point of the film. Great video otherwise.
I would add that another point of the film is that this level of violence often serves to beget more violence. The fact that the Riddler was inspired by the Batman is an important aspect of the film.
Man I don’t get why people think that liking a character means you want to emulate them. Like I’ve said I like Scar from Lion King and the Joker from Batman the Animated Series, and was criticized not for lack of taste but because they are the bad guys. I like them as Villains to see the Hero fight and hopefully succeed.
I’m non binary and disabled and I wanna say thanks. You’re all rad and it’s nice to see people be so openly accepting even though I consider that to just be basic human decency lol
I recently rewatched Breaking Bad with the mindset you suggested, and it was, like, MAGICAL how different it was a viewing experience. Oh my God, my perspective on Skyler did a complete 180, where once I felt bad for Jesse my heart now BROKE for him, and found myself almost violently angry at Walter, poopooing his every word and calling him every awful name in the book, no sympathy for him whatsoever. When Skylar said "I f****d Ted" I actually audibly cheered for her, I loved how she was sticking it to Walt. But also just how bizarre it was that I absolutely hated Walt, like, from the beginning. I'm screaming at him that he's making every dumb decision he can possibly make, where once as a teen I cheered him on thinking he was the genius he claimed to be. Walt is a stupid, pathetic, sad, angry, petty little man who has to be the big man. He could have had it all, but no! Him and his pride and his ego!
I had this moment that struck me across the face like a baseball bat; Breaking Bad is a show about personas. Jesse is a great example of this. Jesse acts like this badass, but it can't be further from that. There were two moments early on that show this: when he's trying to get the money from the couple that stole from Skinny Pete, and when his parents kick him out. When he breaks into their house, he sees a kid and he makes him lunch. When the guy gets his head crushed with the ATM, Jesse's first reaction is to call the cops and put the kid out front telling him he hopes he gets a better life. Then we see Jesse's family. When his parents find weed in their house, Jesse admits it's his and leaves without much conflict. Then we find out that the weed actually belonged to his little brother, his parents' golden child. He doesn't throw his little brother under the bus and even crushes it saying it was terrible weed anyways. I see this as Jesse's way of stopping his brother from smoking any more by destroying the one he had and telling him where he got it from was giving out low quality stuff, hopefully preventing his brother from going there again. We also come to realize that Jesse actually lived a pretty privileged life in this episode. The neighborhood he grew up in had green foliage in an area that is hot and dry, large houses, people jogging, all the hallmarks of an upper middle class neighbor. We even see that Jesse was a pretty smart kid. He never had a hard life, practically grew up with a silver spoon in his mouth, but was emulating a culture he thought was cool and fell in with the wrong crowd leading into him not taking school seriously and his use of harder drugs like meth. Jesse is a good person, pretending to be bad. While Walt is a bad person pretending to be good.
One of the sad things about the whole Peter Griffin one? He used to be good! He used to be, as the show's name implied, a family guy! He actually cared about his family and protected and stood up for and emotionally supported them. But as the seasons went on, the show kinda lost that sprit and they just embraced the whole "assholes are easier to write, funny and make us money" trope of show writing.
Wish I could have sent this video to myself in the 90’s. I made some boneheaded choices because it’s what I thought a guy should do. Thankfully, I didn’t go down the hate path. I did eventually get honest with myself and became a much happier person.
Not a character but the entire movie “full metal jacket”. The entire movie is “ay yo… wars kinda shit bro…” Yet people look at it and think it’s top gun levels of hur dur army cool. (That’s not a diss on Top Gun btw I was just using it to make my point)
The problem with Watchmen is that Zach Snyder missed the point from Alan Moore’s comics. The comics had 2 scenes where Rorschach broke someone’s hand in a bar to get information. The movie decides to remove the first one, where it was just some guy who insulted him, and he didn’t get any information. But he decided to leave the one where the guy threatened him and provided useful information. During the flashback of his first murder, in the comics he says that he went to 14 different bars assaulting people until one person finally knew and told him where to find the kidnapped girl. The movie just says “broke a man’s arm to get a tip” leaving out the other people who were seriously hurt for no reason
I met quite a few dudes who didn't know Fight Club was dark satire. It's mindboggling. My favorite though is This US Rebuplican saying he works out to Rage Against the machine, while being oblivious to the fact that he is a main part of said machine.
I'm not going to pretend that Rorschach is good but he brings up the question of necessary evil. The problem with the justice system is that a lot of evil exploits it and a lot of people are hurt by the same system that's supposed to help them. I won't say the name of the individual in the court system that I'm referencing but this individual in court had exploited the legal system which allowed him to get away with taking advantage of a child, sexually. A lot of people would have taken justice into their own hands because even though the evidence was there the case was pushed past its statute of limitations. The obvious criminal got away. The idea of due process doesn't account for the limited time available to save a victim. As a person aspiring to be good, I would still refrain from taking justice into my own hands but if I have to kill a villain to save the victim then that's the part where I have to choose between being an absolute standard of good that let evil occur or if I am being a necessary evil. It's a clear grey area. A lot of people like Rorschach, not because he's cool, but because these characters say and express things that people in real-world society understand the feeling of. That's what I think you and the writer didn't understand. You can hate the character but if real-world people experience the exact thing these characters are fighting against then the character starts to look more heroic even if said character is an evil bastard. Walter White is pretty evil but from the perspective of a lot of viewers, he's the good guy because the viewers have been screwed over in life and related to that feeling of wanting to get back at the person they felt screwed them. Then there are characters like Cartman and Randy Marsh. Randy didn't start off nearly as evil or stupid as he let himself behave later in the series. While these characters have despicable aspects they do things that a lot of real people would like to do. Ask yourself, why people are idolizing these evil/less good characters? You need to empathize with the common people rather than just say "they don't understand".
as a trans viewer, i do greatly appreciate your solid support for trans people. even if it makes a dozen shitheads uncomfortable, it meant something to a member of the group that you're defending.
Yet more quality content from FF - As someone with pretty shit media literacy it's always a joy to see the vibes of a show given form by people who can really articulate it!
Yeah people idolise Billy Butcher wayyy too much. He's a horrible person with a sympathetic story and I feel like that's the link between most of these people that disenfranchised men idolise: they are either sympathetic monsters or charismatic monsters
@@justelliot4870 when you look at how he acts in the show with the context of what he does near the end of the comics, it's pretty easy to notice just how much of an asshole he is, and that he's leading up to something horrible, it's the Walter White effect
Something I'd like to comment on, about the section about men, in particular. I'm of the mind that 99% of the men that are being described by you in this video aren't actually misogynists, they're insecure and become self-centered as a result. I've noticed that a lot of the time, the reason a lot of men are insecure about their flaws, or their height, is because they have to live with it on a daily basis, and when they do try to talk to people they're interested in (lets assume women for the sake of conversation), they strike out and then blame their insecurities for their failures. A lot of the women I've talked to on the subject of long-term relationships are less concerned about physical attraction than they are personality. A shorter heftier guy with a great sense of humor and a quick wit is a lot more attractive than a tall, buff guy with neither. By the same token, most men who are insecure aren't looking for long-term relationships, they are looking for someone to validate them, to prove to themselves that they aren't unattractive. I personally believe that's why we see these types of men (and women) who end up in these long-term relationships becoming unfaithful, and ruining their partners self-esteem/self worth, because they found someone else who they personally find more attractive, who also gives them the validation they're seeking. On the flip side, too, women who aren't interested in a long-term partnership are the ones who will have the much higher physical standards for their partner. Someone who can be fun for a night or a week, and then it's over. The reverse is also true to some certain extent, where women who are insecure look for higher standards, to validate themselves, and describe wanting short-term partners who become long-term, and that usually isn't very healthy, either. In my opinion, the solution isn't so much to meet a woman who you DON'T want to be with emotionally, but rather to just. Go to therapy, and work on yourself, so that you can validate yourself without the need for an outside input. Find a hobby that can distract that inner dialogue that pokes at your insecurities; find a partner who doesn't just tell you what you want to hear, but actually respects you and makes up for the perceived flaws you have, that you actually enjoy spending time with. It might not solve the 1%'s misogyny, but it will definitely lead to a happier life for the other 99%.
Great video! Rorschach is based on the Question (originally this was going to involve Charleston Comics characters after DC bought them but they decided to change it to original characters). The Question is an Objectivst (like the Ayn Rand thing that Bioshock is a satire of) and is basically a fascist. He's homophobic and misogynistic. He's trying to solve the death of The Comedian, a war criminal who murdered a woman he impregnated to prove a point to Dr. Manhattan and who tried to r@pe on of his friends, but he still defends him. Also people defending the Joker confuses me too. He's absurdism taken to the extreme. Nothing matters everything is a joke. Why stay sane in a crazy world? Batman: The Killing Joke is him trying to prove that one bad day is all you need to turn an upstanding citizen into him to Commissioner Gordon and Batman and he fails. It's about ending the cycle of abuse. The point of a society is that we all work together to make a better place for everyone and the solution to the world not making any sense isn't to just blow stuff up and murder people. It's to make it better by helping people. Ugh. No wonder Alan Moore quit comics. Media literacy is dead. Trans rights are human rights
Objectivism as a philosophy promotes individual rights and liberties. How is that considered "fascist"? Mr. A was Ditko's "Objectivist" character, published independently, while the Question, published by Charlton, is a lighter, more comics-friendly version of Mr. A. I am truly curious to understand why you think Objectivism and/or The Question are fascist? Rorschach is obviously Alan Moore's take on the character, but is also obviously not what Ditko intended. Trans rights should be no greater or lesser than any other person's rights. To say otherwise is to miss the point of the universality of rights in a society.
@@macsnafu I think they meant that Rorschach was a fascist and just phrased it weird (or perhaps he made an edit and forgot to change the first part). The rest is about Rorschach, and Rorschach *is* a fascist - he's a moral lesson on how Objectivism, like all philosophies, can also be used to justify very bad things.
Rorschach was the most heroic character in Watchmen. Bar none. Yes, I understand what Moore was trying to say with the character, but Moore is a communist masquerading as an anarchist. His politics are a little fucked, so the character, that's supposed to be a take-down of conservatives, backfired big time. Happens all the time.
I’ve seen people idolize homelander recently. You know the guy who let a bunch of people die in a plane crash, SA’d butcher’s wife then abuses the child,fell in love with a N*ZI and forced a girl to commit suicide?
I'm very glad you guys are phrasing it like that, as that helps me sum up the problems I have with by no means the most criminally misunderstood TV finale ever (and why I'm calling it that), but with the reactions (!) to it, by simply saying: A certain dragon queen belongs on that list (see especially what you say about Rorschach, though that's just one aspect of it)...
When they say that it's "becoming political" what they actually mean is that it's either becoming less conservative or less subtle to the point where they no longer agree with it or can't ignore it.
Look, I hate when folks bitch about media getting more political just because it includes a minority in a prominent role or has some smart/tasteful commentary or subtext on political issues. I do, however, have an issue when a message is being shoved down my throat, in a movie that was not billed as a political treatise. For instance, if I go to see an action movie I’m fine with a female presenting character being a competent and and absolute badass but what would annoy me would be if the plot grinds to a halt so it can preach at me about why, say, America is evil (I know the US is bad in may ways) or capitalism is the biggest evil since Satan.
Or because the industry has lost any and all capacity for nuance and decided to just start shoving whatever message makes them the most money down the audience's throat.
@@maskedgaming2798 That's just bad writing, though, not the politics themselves. I can think of some very, VERY anvillicious stories (Astro Boy LITERALLY bludgeons you over robot rights and what it means to be human-- and I mean the 2003 series not the movie, movie was trash compared to any of the three series, even the 1963 one) that were still great. I mean, /gestures at own pfp. Getter Robo is half about nuclear power and its fears and hopes, one of its protagonist characters is a literal anti-government terrorist, and it literally talks about intergalactic warfare and humanity being seen by aliens as imperialistic conquerors who will raze a swathe through the universe if we're not wiped out, with the counterpoint offered being that Getter Ray's chosen humanity and is protecting us from these pre-emptive strikes from aliens that don't want to be conquered... And the Getter Robo pilots prove the aliens were right to be afraid. Messages can be shoved down your throat VERY OBVIOUSLY, but in a way that's enjoyable anyway, when the thing is WRITTEN WELL. Bad writing is bad writing and will be unenjoyable no matter what the politics are or how loud the anvil drop is. I'm tired of people claiming it's "shoving things down your throat" when either the issue you have is the FLAVOR being shoved down your throat or the BAD WRITING.
Maybe for some people, but for me it can mean two things. One is lack of nuance. The other is lack of in-universe consistency. For example, the Star Wars galaxy has it's own politics separate from the USA, so it would be out of place if 3P0 was racist against Lando. However, it does make sense for him to be racist against Chewy.
About that scene with Rorschach in prison, the power dynamics in prison is a lot more complicated as it looks. Broadly, it is "Might is Right", but generally speaking, prisoners who attack other prisoners on sight to that extreme are very unpopular. Usually, a prisoner threatening you is sizing you up for everyone else to see if you'll stand up for yourself or if you're a pushover, but no one wants to be bunked with psychopaths. So, him sticking up for himself is fine. Him boiling a guy alive is too far
I think a huge part of this is that we think just because we love the character in the story we have to see them as the good guy and ignore their flaws or pretend they do nothing wrong.
There's a similar thing in the Warhammer 40,000 fandom; lots of people (often people who've joined relatively recently but believe they're "original fans") don't realise that 40K lore is satire.
It's not a satire, it was a parody of Warhammer fantasy that became it's own thing, there is definitly some goofy stuff but the entire series it's not a satire it's more an epic than anything else
The setting is a sci-fi reflection of the Old World, certainly - to the extent that there once was lore suggesting that the WFB Old World was contemporary to 40K and took place on a small out-of-the-way planet isolated by warp storms or some such. But satire doesn't mean it's "goofy stuff"; satire is something that uses humour, ridicule, wit, exaggeration and so on to make a point. 40K is a product of its time, and in many ways the power structures and conflicts in it were created to satirise things like thatcherian Britain, authoritarianism, religion, colonialism, xenophobia, fascism, class, bureaucracy and so much more. Rick Priestley himself said that many people in recent years often missed the social criticisms inherent in the game.
@@awmperry again W40K satarted up as a parody of WF that evolved into it's own thing, that why pieces of lore that the one you mentioned are no longer canon, the satire aspects as tone of the setting were left behind anda replaced with a more grindark and epic tone, there is some satirical stuff but it's not the main focus. W40K it's massive and it's really hard to get a general idea without missing something after all the comisssar Ciaphas Cain and the Daemonculaba are part of the same setting.
I think we may have some crossed wires in translation. Satire and grimdark aren’t mutually exclusive; just look at Swift’s Modest Proposal, for instance. The satirical elements - the social criticism inherent in things like depicting the Imperium as “good guys”, for instance - never went away. The *comedy* has been toned down drastically (to the setting’s detriment, in my view), but satire never needs to be comedic. Satire and parody aren’t the same thing, and that’s an important distinction to draw in a discussion like this.
I started a fight club in grade 3, never having even heard of anything like it, let alone the movie. We were just a bunch of rowdy kids who wanted to show off the taekwondo or boxing or karate or whatever that we were all learning after school lol. Also, super love the support of trans folks and our community. It really means a lot, especially right now.
I like it that the two of you at the end started talking about what you think is the reason why people do this and the question you tried to answer is one without one as there isn't one that sticks 100% of the time and there could be cases where several or non stick and its a different reason. I love your two separate ideas and opinions and it shows wonderfully the point of the bigger idea at the very end, Its beautiful.
The whole trans rights conversation reminded me of the first time I ever saw the statement Trans Rights are Human Rights I was so confused because I instinctively assumed that it would have been the case. I was a lot younger when I first saw it and recently discovered that I’m trans, so thanks a ton for the whole passionately defense in our rights.
Yeah, the Rorschach segment is the reason I have a hard time staying pro death penalty. As much as I believe that some people/crimes are deserving of the Death Penalty, our (USA) criminal justice system puts too many innocent people in jail to make me comfortable with the death penalty.
Small point of order, Rorschach isn't based on Batman. He's based off of a Steve Ditko character called 'The Question', who in the incarnation Alan Moore referenced in Watchman was a much more ethically ambiguous character than Batman (at least, the Batman that's evolved since the 1950s).
On this note one of the most disturbing things you'll see if you see someone react to Death Note online and read the comments is all the people crawling out of the woodwork to tell the reactor and other commentors that Light's plan actually makes sense and only goes bad once he starts killing FBI agents. The plan by the way is to kill off a group of undesirables(in this case criminals and anyone that would defend them) be worshipped as a god and use his brutal methods as a deterrent to future criminals. He's the moat basic authoritarian dictator you could imagine with a magic book but anytime the series is discussed online there's always someone trying to make a case for him.
Handsome Jack had a point. Because 1. in borderlands its easy to argue theres very few or no truly good characters and 2. in jacks screwed up world view he IS a hero and his idealistic goal justifies any means of getting to it, but he cant see the violence will never lead to peace etc because that would mean hes wrong and hes a narcissist, that can never be his head cannon. Thats pretty good writing, hes one of the best ever game villains. So many people argue hes misunderstood or the hero because hes a charismatic narcissist with BPD who lives in delusional, hes very convincing and easy to empathise with and feel sorry for and people then decide hes right because they like him, sometimes you like a well written psychopath.
Thank you for this. It grates me when people are legit defending people like Homelander thinking they are actually the hero and go out of their way to justly(or just ignore) the horrible and homicidal tendencies For me when Skylar showed Walt all the money she couldn’t launder and had it piled up in that storage room and she asks him when do we stop? He originally was going to make enough to make sure his family was taken care of when he passed, but that clearly went to the wayside and was in it for the power. I knew right there this isn’t going to end well for Walt.
The thing with Armstrong is, even before we meet him, we know exactly what his vision of the world intends. Kicking down peaceful countries to start conflict, armies made up of thousands of orphans put through literally hell just like Raiden, sold to people who trample on the lives of others. When you consider that Armstrong’s goal is to just imitate the patriots, the same mess that forged Raiden? People who agree with him have forgotten that we have already experienced exactly the terrible costs his vision entails. Agreeing with Armstrong also meant endorsing his actions, which is why Raiden rejects him so strongly. Armstrong feels many more people should be like Raiden, but Raiden, being someone who has walked that long, dreadful road, doesn’t want this for anyone else. The game was really him accepting how broken he was (which he usually covered up under the guise of being a tool of justice) while also showing that he was ultimately grounded by the people he loved. This is what separates him from the other desperadoes, he actually has things in the normal world that he loves and protects. They seek violence to fill some aspect of their being, they are not the same. Even Jetstream Sam was completely numb because all he did was kill without purpose or reason; and it was that lack of resolve that made it impossible for him to overcome Armstrong, who was extremely determined and focused on achieving chaos as an outsider looking in.
I always found it interesting that as the series went on Hank becomes the hero and Walter the Villain though at the beginning you sympathise with Walter because of his situation and hate Hank as he's an insensitive idiot.
It isn't a "weird internet thing" that wants things they like to be good. It is everyday, normal human behaviour. The internet might distill it, but it doesn't create it
Two things: On Karls woman advice point, it's one of the reasons I am so glad I have a sister, with whom I have a good relationship with now. We chat about things like this all the time, and it helps me stay grounded, and makes it so there is someone who I can go to and will check me if I need to be checked. Any guys here who have sisters or female cousins that you have regular contact with, if possible, I implore you to make sure you improve your relationship with them and talk to them. For any teenagers, this will be a really important thing to build for yourselves to keep your mental health stable. As a very tall man, yes, it's not the and all be all of whether a woman wants me or not. I'm sure Karl can attest to this, it's usually at best a nice little bonus though, like having beautiful eyes or a great smile, etc. If that were all I could go off of, I would be the loneliest dude on the planet. Always seek to find ways to improve yourself, cause at the end of the day that is the best most of us can do.
I know I'm really late to leaving a comment, but whatever. (Obviously my opinion) Why I think Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul work so well together is the former is about a bad man breaking bad, whereas the latter is about a good man breaking bad. Obviously Saul is no angel, but you can tell he is essentially a kind hearted person. Especially at the end of the series (without spoiling). Obviously he makes mistakes, but he never truly feels proud of himself. The exact opposite can be said for Walter. A inherently 'bad' man who finally found an avenue to express his evil side. One of the many reasons why these shows truly work hand in hand together.
I’ve got another one, or rather two: Scott Pilgrim AND Ramona Flowers. Sure Scott is the protagonist and he’s a great fighter, but he’s not a good person by any means: he dated a seventeen-year-old girl at age twenty-three (22 in the movie), started dating Ramona while still dating the fake high school girlfriend and didn’t dump her until like a couple weeks or so later, doesn’t really try to get to know Ramona as a person, doesn’t take responsibility for his actions, and he becomes increasingly awful and insensitive to Ramona as time goes on. And again, Ramona is not off the hook here: she toyed with the feelings of five guys (two of whom were twins), one girl, and it took a possessive nut job like Gideon to make her realize that maybe she should change how she treats her partners. And even then, she is way too secretive around Scott, especially concerning her evil exes! Now yes, the two do learn their lessons and decide to try their relationship again at the end of the comic and movie, but maaan did it take a lot of self-reflection.
For the record, I adore the Scott Pilgrim franchise and I can’t wait for the upcoming anime adaptation of the comic! I just can’t see Scott as a hero until the very end of the story
I watched the movie about a week ago I couldn't believe what I was watching. This wasn't the epic anime like series I was promised! This sucks! Scott's not cool wtf? So yeah someone along the line some people must've started idolizing Scott.
I don't recall the movie, but I knock that in the comic, Rorschach shot his grapnel gun at a cop at close range while trying to escape. It landed the guy in the hospital at least.
I’ve see that in other shows too! Like people praising this guy and saying how much he loved this female character and how she was an annoying betraying (insert various female insults). He kidnapped her and forced her to marry him! But he’s romantic because he genuinely cares for her. He’s trying to kill the person she actually loves too. Or the people saying what a good man Daemon is from House of the Dragon and how they either ignore that he grabbed his wife by the throat or they complain that it’s out of character. He killed his first wife! Look I love that character, I like a lot of characters that aren’t good people. You can like a character and recognize how awful of a person he is.
One of the first and biggest you didn’t mention - though probably because few remember him today: Archie Bunker from All in the Family. He was meant to be a lampoon of conservative culture in the early 70s, but it shocked both Norman Lear (the producer) and Carroll O’Connor (the actor) just how many people looked to him as a role model.
I've noticed that people are not a fan of cognitive dissonance, regardless of its source. So I don't find it all that shocking when people that are confronted by something that directly conflicts with their existing perception and/or bias it instantly translates into them becoming overtly hostile towards that conflicting information rather than critically thinking about why they're so upset by that new information.
Thanks for making this video. I hope at least a few people re-assessed their idolisations of those kinds of characters. Even if many just don't listen, every now and then you will have someone who is reached, and I think even if it's just one, this video was worth it.
There's another example I'd like to bring up of characters that wind up idolized but don't deserve to be and that's Vegeta from Saiyan Saga all the way up to when he goes Majin in DB. Throughout the entirety of his run there, while we get glimpses of the better man he could become? Vegeta's worst traits are still mostly front and center and it's specifically those traits that get idolized and propped up as being an example of being an "alpha" badass. Granted some of this comes from the dub where they changed up lines not knowing the effect they'd have which resulted in Vegeta coming across as a sympathetic anti-hero who was forced into villainy whereas in the original Japanese and the manga, he is a callous petty narcissistic murdering bully which is really summed up in his speech as a Majin when Supreme Kai is baffled by his obsession over his pride and he just goes on to basically whine about how Goku has been better than him and yet that version of Vegeta is held up as the pinnacle of badassery along with his other horrid traits and much for the same reasons as why someone may like Cartman? I think part of it is definitely because he insults people and expresses zero care for anyone but himself.
If you discount filler, the saga where Vegeta has the lowest murder count is actually the Saiyan arc. Ironically the only one he truly has an antagonist role. Saiyan Saga: He only kills Nappa Namek Saga: He murders an entire village of Namekians Android Saga: He murders a few civilian drivers in his attempt to take out 18. Buu Saga: Kills a good hundred bystanders to convince Goku to fight him.
@@takeru3159 I feel like there are a few crucial details that are being missed and that's how Vegeta is also throughout most of the story a belligerent arrogant asshole.
I think part of the Vegeta fandom is due to how completely annoying Goku can be. They can't even get behind other characters because Dragonball has been the Vegeta and Goku show for some time now. My favourite character's are Piccolo and Krillin (not early Krillin) and it wasn't until an initially non-canon movie that Piccolo finally got any real attention for some time.
@@nathanthom8176 I can get behind that but again, it misses a few crucial details here and in this case it's trying to use the point on the Vegeta fandom to just let loose some frustrations about DB in general. I'm referring to, in my original post in order to be relevant to the video topic, the sections of Vegeta fans who look at his worst traits from the Saiyan Saga up until Boo like his lack of respect towards anyone else but himself, his posturing and stand-offish attitude and more and idolize that while completely missing every point where Vegeta shows and how Toriyama writes him that he isn't someone to be idolized. Like Goku can be annoying but generally speaking, his most irritating fans are not people propping up his worst traits though I'm sure they exist, it's people who basically prop Goku up as the ultimate badass and can never handle anyone suggesting he can be beaten which drifts away from the topic at hand.
I gotta say Vegeta is one of my absolute favorite characters from DB (tho I will admit thats mostly because of abridged). Not because he's a good person or a role model in any way, but because he actually has some growth (yes, he does revert to his problematic baseline often but still). I think he has some of the best moments in DB
"all media is political" made me realize that the webcomic I'm working on is also political. it's about a witch apprentice in the 14th century. sooo yeah at some point they have to hash it out with the church, a political power.
Every so often a creator I fallow turns out to be a transphobe and it sucks so I’m so glad with people like you who are so open with your support it’s appreciated
Damn, you guys were on point in this video, very nuanced good arguments. I think that people get into characters for being relatable, and then they become a reflection of that person. Like, maybe I understand the feeling of being embarrassed by my financial status, so now I feel like “oh, Walter White is like me, and I want to be strong, and I want to believe I’m a good person so I have to feel like Walter at least was a good person at some point and is strong as a power fantasy.” I think people are uncomfortable with gray areas. People don’t like to think about how George Washington had slaves, or that Hitler liked dogs:that people are complicated and that even awful people have some good points, and that people can do great things and truly heinous things in their life.
Any version of "fallen" Superman. I mean like he is in _Injustice_ where something happens that causes him to forsake his humanity and become the "vengeful god"
you are the one who did not understand fight club, it is not a criticism of toxic masculinity, it is a criticism of the self-repression of masculinity that is categorized as toxic masculinity and that the consequence of repressing aggressiveness and being assertive is man committing a high level of violence. By the way, how bad is Tyler going to be? I wanted to destroy the financial system that is a hero for me xd
It's still surprising to me when online channels actually express pro-trans rights views and that makes me both sad and angry. You are all just brilliant, the whole team. The exact sort of people I would actually want to hang out with for those massive chats you have!
My go to example of this is Dracula in Castlevania. He is not right. He is insane. Nobody except Isaac thinks he's right and Isaac only thinks he's right because he idolises Dracula. Even Dracula knows he's insane and that he's wrong. He says as much. Why do people still say that he was right? He just tried to commit some genocide/suicide hybrid. Edit: Major props for the ending. It's always nice when Fact Fiend makes the summary of just be nice to people and not a dick.
Watching this a month late, and I was disappointed you didn't go further into "The Batman" (the Pattinson one) since this was literally the point of the entire movie. One of Riddler's goons literally said "I am vengeance" near the end of a movie about Batman finally coming out of his cave and learning what it's actually like on the ground, realizing the complicated situations that break down his view of crime and criminals, and LITERALLY NARRATES OUT LOUD "I have to be more, something for people to believe in" to break down this point of debate about Batman's ideology. They literally make it as explicit as possible that Riddler and his goons are all edgy school shooters sitting in an echo chamber, especially when Riddler had all of the pieces laid out to figure out Batman's secret identity, more information about the Wanye family than even Batman had, and he couldn't because he needs Batman to be a monolith, and he couldn't fathom Batman not being just like him.
I adore Rorschach in the MOVIE because he's never wrong, just overreactive sometimes and actually has a noble heart and straight head. I like Rorschach in the comics because he knows the justice system cant be entirely trusted, especially with Chomo's. HOWEVER he does go over the top with thieves and other minor criminals and I hate that. Hes an interesting character and has his moments in the comics but he's a man with his heart in the right place and his head is some where else entirely. In short, Rorschach has his moment but is NO WHERE near worthy of idolizing.
For some reason I'm suddenly reminded of all the discussions I've seen surrounding Fallout: New Vegas and more specifically Caesar's Legion and the argument that they're a good choice to side with and I'm just sitting here like... No????? They literally enslave people and burn entire towns to the ground how tf are they a good choice? I get there's a lot of moral ambiguity when it comes to FNV but I feel like the case of Caesar's Legion is pretty cut and dry.
@@curtismcpsycho8212 I envy you for not running into the Legion fanboys who argue Caesar was right unironically. I've unfortunately run into them and like. I'd sooner trust ASHUR than the Legion, the Pitt Raiders are better than the Legion in that at least they're egalitarian, and that's not exactly a glowing endorsement here, "those guys won't force you to be broodmares".
I think you might be missing the fact that media is an art form and touches people differently. An artists intentions can be ignored by people who see another side to the art. A sculpture made to show the might of a king can be seen as insecurity by his subjects. Characters can be seen differently from the perspective of the reader vs the author who knows everything and is trying to spin a story a direction. Not saying it's not absurd to like psychopaths, but there are qualities and ideals that some of them hold that are inspiration to some.
Thank you for supporting trans people. As a trans person myself, it can feel like the world is turning against us, what with all the online vitriol and the bills being passed that are stripping my people of our rights. Sometimes, it's nice to be reminded that other people do care
@@henrybelman7424 Honestly, it does mean a lot. We're not strong enough to change the world alone. Having others at our back means so much. It means there will be people who will help us no matter how bad it gets
@henrybelman7424 You don't have to "make up for" other people, you shoukdn't take on yourself responsability for other people just because you're on a same community or group. You should support people because it's the right thing to do and because everyone deserves to be treated like human beings, don't feel like you have to do things because there's cis people out there who are terrible or to "prove we're not alll like that", youlnow what i mean?
I do think its interesting that in Family Guy Stewie is presented as the Villain but in more recent seasons he serves mostly to just point out the messed up shit the rest of the characters do.
I remember when I started Breaking Bad and I was waiting for that moment Walter truly became the badass Heisenberg and it never came. I just saw him as that pathetic guy who was constantly out of his depth and I just couldn't understand why people thought he was so badass and idolised him. My old housemate who'd seen Breaking Bad several times hated Skylar, and again, I couldn't figure out why. Sure she isn't perfect and about the worst thing she does is cheat on Walter which is nothing compared to the shit Walter does. And do I have any sympathy for Walter after being cheated on? Nope. Not at all. The characters people will idolise baffles me sometimes. Especially Walter White, Bojack Horseman, and Rick Sanchez. These characters are all assholes, and in Bojack and Rick's case, their heads are a literal hell. Both shows make it incredibly clear that you wouldn't want to be either of them despite their wealth and fantastical lifestyles. The gang in Always Sunny is another one that baffles me. They're hilarious but they are the worst people and you would never want to spend a minute in the same room as them. I wouldn't call myself the most media literate person out there and there's plenty of stuff I'll miss, but considering I can at least understand the basic stuff, maybe I'm better than I think I am at it.
Do you go "wait, isn't it normal to understand this? Why don't they get it that these characters are of the "we love to hate/pity them, but we don't love them" variety..." often? Because if so welcome to the phenomenon of realizing that you undersell yourself and oversell others and aren't as awful as you thought.
I do love Cartman as a character. I think he can be highly entertaining but I do want him to fail with his bullshit. That´s why I love whenever someone gets the better of him at the end of an episode. Especially if it is someone like Butters or Kenny, who he treats even more like dirt than Kyle. Kenny is actually my favourite but I love all the kid main and sidecharacters. I thought it was funny that Matt and Trey wanted to write out Kenny because they thought after endless deaths, that they couldn´t do anything with the character only to realize that they need him and even make him a compelling figure. Same with Butters. I am rambling......so, i get on with my point. I cannot imagine anyone watching South Park not realizing it is satire. I find that hard to believe but there are worse things out there that are true, so I won´t debate it. I had lots of discussions about Walter White with people. Not nessecarily about them idolizing him but making excuses for everything he does. I do do not feel a lot of pity for Walter because he never tried to really better himself and he is an ass from day one. Still a fascinating character. I love Hannibal Lecter from the TV Series. It can be pretentious as fuck but it was an artful beautiful piece of media. I can also like and sympathize with Bojack Horseman or Barry, it doesn´t excuse their behaviour and I love morally grey characters or even characters who definetly make the wrong descision even when presented with better options. Also, concerning Barry....I want more NoHo Hank characters in TV. He was such a gem in this series.
"It's not green screen shenanigans" like you expect me to believe that Karl isn't some kind of beer opening/pouring/drinking AI that has gained sentience.
I'd like to add, as well, onto Karl's point of how its so similar to people who speak on a piece of media by interjecting with something unrelated, is that its not only that they don't want to be left out of a discussion they don't have comprehension of, but also a refusal to learn. To watch the media, to talk to the person, to gain experiences, truly makes the conversation worthwhile for everybody. Remember, guys: If you feel left out, learn the facts about the issues at hand, and form your own opinions. Listen to reason. Partake in socialization, to learn and grow as a person.
@@curtismcpsycho8212 Well made being well-written so that instead of choking you're eagerly opening your mouth for the next piece to be stuffed in there. I've yet to hear people complain that Astro Boy dropping anvils about robot rights on their head "isn't subtle enough", because the writing is good. I've also yet to hear Cyborg 009 fans complain the anvils about an underground arms dealer engineering their own wars and causing death and misery for profit being evil, too.
I recall David Fincher saying in an interview that if his daughter ever brought home a boy who said Fight Club was his favourite movie, he’d forbid her from seeing that boy ever again.
One tragic instance of this was people thinking Lolita was a horny romance book. Nabokov was a survivor of childhood abuse, and the entire narrative was from the pov of a monster excusing his own behavior.
I don’t remember who said it, but they described the story as being told through an unreliable narrator, and as soon as I heard that I was like “Oh, that makes so much more since”.
There's that social belief that it's the woman's fault when a man misbehaves towards her. As if he was a helpless puppet and she had hold of the strings. Yes, even if she's underaged.
@@julietfischer5056 the thing is that in Lolita he lies to himself so he is "the good guy".
@- And readers take him at face value. So do the cover artists.
Yeah, if you've heard the Police song, Don't Stand So Close to Me. It references the man from Lolita as being like the reluctant teacher in the song who is hit on by a young girl...so apparently Sting didn't understand the book either...lol...
One of those guys who started a real life Fight Club IN COLLEGE is now one half of Cinema Therapy. Alan Seawright is his name - he has explained in many videos that as a young man he was angry, upset and frustrated - partly because his family didn't support him when he struggled in school and had no faith he could work as a filmmaker. He's had to do a lot of work on himself.
You could say…
He’s a filmmaker who needs therapy!
I love cinema therapy, those guys are amazing
oh interesting, was that mentioned in any particular episode? (only found them recently)
They did a vid on Captian Jack Sparrow who fits this vid.
@@OlieB I believe they made an episode about Fight Club, so that ought to be the one. If not I can only narrow it down to being within the last year...
Another prime example of a character who gets idolized by people that missed the point is The Dark Knight joker. The very fact that people keep trying to prop the character up as a "sigma male" is a prime example of why the very idea of a sigma male is stupid. Especially since he keeps lying about his motivations throughout the entire movie. He says he's an agent of chaos and just does things on a whim despite the fact everything has been micro planned and there's literally a part where he's reading out a speech he wrote!
"why are you blowing up an orphanage joker?", "Idk man I'm bored"
do people *actually* view him as a sigma male? I thought we were all calling him that ironically. At least *I* was
@@shrimpfriedstudios
I felt the same honestly!🤷
anyone using "sigma male" unsarcastically needs help.
@ShrimpFriedStudios here's the problem: you say something ironically enough times, you will inevitably say it to someone who takes it at face value and completely misses the irony. And online, when ironic statements can meet millions and millions of people, eventually thousands of people unironically believe it
I was young when I watched Breaking Bad, so I didn't pick up in the beginning how awful Walter was, but when my father watched it he hated Walt from the start. Definitely a difference in wisdom.
I admired his intelligence but hated his pride. He reminds me of what i hate about myself. Jesse I feel sorry for though no one came make me not feel sorry for him.
The one thing I liked about Walter is he did love his family. He didnt go out and cheat on Skyler when he had the money and power to do as he wishes. He let all the blame fall on him when he called Skyler, calling her a bitch for not following his instructions when clearly Skyler herself can be arrested for laundering his money. He also made sure that both his children will receive the profit of his hardwork even after his death.
@@CrackedPropaneit was funny when walter got that job offer with the health care and he threw a fit as if it was a ceo asking him to watch his wife get fucked in order to keep his job. But that really does show the character that the cancer was just a last act freedom to do whatever he wanted because he was going to die soon anyway. And the saving money for his family was an excuse to live on the edge.
I still can't believe people think Skyler was ever in the wrong. Even if she can be a bitch in some moments, sure, but like if your husband is hiding all this from you while also making vague threats toward you and other people, would you NOT want to know what's going on? Especially if it's all to "protect" you?
@@disposable_income_andy the only thing i hated about Skyler is her cheating with Ted, but youve gotta give her slack because with all the money and power Walt has for all she knows he wouldve been also been banging chicks left to right
There is a comic arc where Batman is wrong, and he realizes it after the fact. Bruce bribes his way into jury duty in order to besmirch Batman's reputation and ensure the subject goes free.
I think you're talking about the one where he beats up Mr Freeze in Tom Kings run iirc
Also in White Knight, when he gets imprisoned by the GCPD, he waits to be released by Jack and Gordon instead of break out, and admits that he has problems with violent tendencies to Commissioner Gordon and cements an alliance with the Gotham Police and reveals his secret identity.
nobody (of those kinds of people) wants to admit this from that is what a true alpha male move looks like
I always prefer a Batman that has Bruce Wayne be adamantly against his existence. Like, he can't say it smartly, but he has moments of "This is stupid and shouldn't be nessicary. I hope for Batman to one day not be needed. Anyway, I'm launching another charity for abuse victims, increasing donations to Arkham's janitors specifically and hiring people in need right now so I gotta go."
That's Cold Days, isn't it. I adore that arc, one of my favourite Batman stories and comic stories in general
Blues Clues had a pride episode. Seasame Street was banned often because it showed different races living on the same street. Mr Rodgers neighborhood was almost taken off the air over the episodes with the black postman. Kids shows have always had the "radical" idea of, as you put it, "don't be a dick."
Blue’s clues didn’t have a pride episode
It sucks that fans can’t love a character but cannot accept they have flaws or how wrong their mindset is.
Yeah there are some characters I like and their monologues or ideas are cool but in the end they are wrong or terrible people.
It’s like all the, for example, the villains who have a point trope. So many people like to say the villain is right because they are pointing out something wrong in society but rather than fixing the problem, they just go to killing innocent people
@@Nostripe361 EXACTLY!!!!! heck some villains even use these problems they point out in their schemes
I can completely see the wrong in a character after the 2nd watch but bc of circumstances, I romanticize them for their morals, not so much their tactics. But it's the heart that counts Ig.
I like this = sainthood
No i accept it. Im cherry picking their qualities
Light Yagami from _Death Note_ definitely belongs in this category.
I never quite fell into full-on idolisation when I first watched the series, but I was at least in the "has a point" camp.
I never understood it as every moment in which Light is not in the presence of another character he is a complete d-bag.
It got to the point when Jump Force came out people were actually surprised to see him categorized as a villain character (though not playable). I never understood that mindset. I mean this is a guy who, from the first kill, began murdering people not merely out of a sense of justice like some people like to claim, but for the rush of power he felt from it. Light truly believed he was better than everyone else even before he got the notebook, simply because he was intelligent, but then given power his ego spun wildly out of control and got many innocent people AND himself killed. People act like he was bringing justice to the world, because that's what Light _says_ he's doing (repeatedly and with increasingly evil looks on his face), but that's a lie. Truth is he's the definition of selfish.
Think about it: his reactions to the harrasser and hostage situation at the very beginning were more akin to vague curiosity as to what he could use the notebook for instead of horror and indignation at the situation the victims were in at the time. He acted like he didn't care about the Kira monkier, but he quickly adopted it and was clearly smug from the attention. Dude legit thought he was "chosen" until Ryuk told him "lol no, I just wanna have fun", but he basically continued to believe it anyway, calling himself a God. Then his whole thing with L and N and M and the other investigators was 100% him trying to "win", not improve the world or save anyone.
I think the biggest nail in the coffin is this though: the names that Light wrote in the notebook? The criminals? Where did he get those names from? Criminal registry. These were people who were already arrested, already trialed and potentially already serving sentences. No thought as to if they'd been framed or misjudged. No thought as to if they were rehabilitating or rehabilitated. And of course nothing would or could be done for criminals who weren't caught or identified. He just killed them because he had the power to do so and it was easy to justify. Despite being anonymous, it got him praise and attention. And that ego stroking was what really mattered most to him.
Edit: Oh yeah and I just remembered the bonus story where a young kid gets the Death Note. He kills a bully by writing their name and is instantly terrified and regretful. I think he also freaks out and kills a cop or detective (don't know if on purpose or accident). Then some other kid gets a Death Note as well and tries to kill all the bullies and the cops and himself (wow, no real life parallels there) but the first kid convinces him to not do it. Luckily there's an eraser in that story that miraculously brings people back to life when their name is erased. Both kids actually tell the police the whole story and demonstrate the notebooks power by killing one of them with it and resurrecting them. I know there are other short semi-sequels and spin-offs but this is an example of notebook holders who actually have morals.
@@conspiracypanda1200 Come to think of it, during his self-imposed amnesia phase he seems to be more appalled at the accusation of being Kira than at any of the acts committed. Even when "innocent" he still had an inflated ego.
If you look at the comments for the death note musical song Where is the Justice people are super hyping up Light and saying he's right. It's terrifying.
We've all felt the desire for someone we hate, or for an unrepentant criminal, to drop dead. Or wished we could wave a wand so that people would tell the objective truth.
That's what makes Light (morbidly) appealing. What would _we_ do with a Death Note, once we found out it worked? Because there was a time in my life when I would have written my tormentors' names in a notebook and how they'd die, just out of anger and frustration. If they then died that way, and I found out? I don't know.
This is in a different vein, but something I get upset at people for not understanding is the movie 500 Days of Summer. Too often I see the argument coming down on the side of Tom was a great guy and it was wrong for Summer to treat him like that, or that Summer is a standard Manic Pixie Dream Girl with no definition. The point of the movie is we see the entirety of the movie from Tom's point of view which incorrectly skews our view on Summer and the relationship. Summer literally spells out her expectations for the relationship, but we get bombarded by the narrator telling us what is Tom is wanting out of the relationship instead.
I think the perfect example of how crummy a boyfriend Tom was is the scene where Summer is explaining a dream she has and ends with "I never told anyone about this." Makes it seem like Tom is a great guy and important to her. Then what was the dream she was talking about. Nobody knows because the narrator was talking over Summer telling us Tom's completely unrelated thoughts in that moment. Summer just shared something she had never shared with anyone else, and Tom didn't hear it because he was too busy thinking about himself.
Exactly. The whole manic pixie dream girl idea was somewhat made up by the protagonist the whole time
Any time someone complains that a story's moral is hamfisted and forced I will remind them that some people watch anti-war movies and think they glorify war, watch anti-capitalism movies they think promote capitalism, and watch anti-racism movies and believe they are pro-racism. Sometimes the protagonists really need to turn to the camera and say "being a bad person is bad" and some viewers still won't get it.
It's a double-edged sword, because the other side of that problem is that too much explicit stating of the "thesis" of the work makes it less effective, makes it hit less hard and leave a smaller impact. It's why so much dyed-in-the-wool Christian fiction falls flat on its face, for example. You can't hammer too much on the nail of "this character/action is bad" before it lessens the effect the story might have.
The problem lies more with how people are taught and encouraged to engage with media in my opinion, not how the media itself is made so much.
that is some grammar
@@fachi4110 I edited a bit, is the grammar better?
Yeah, I really wish critical thought exercises were taught in every class, even maths. Like, imagine how much better at math ppl would be if they were told to solve a math problem BEFORE they knew the formula, and then were told the formula afterwards. They'd have a much better understanding of how mathematics actually work if you explained WHY a formula works too. I failed math so many times dood. TwT It'd also help identify kids that need extra help too like my ADHD havin ass.
"Falling Down" literally has Michael Douglas facing the camera and saying "I'm the bad guy?"
I think it was Tom Morello that made a comment online and someone told him that they would stop listening to his music if he was "woke". Someone had gone around 30 years without realizing a band called Rage Against the Machine was political....
Didn't he clown on that reply by asking "What machine did he think we rage against?" (That and the time someone told him he shouldn't give political opinions he's just an entertainer and he replied by pointing out he majored in Pol. Sci. were some of my favorite moments.)
@@neoqwerty Rage Against the Answering Machine?
I believe his high school French teacher was named Monsuer Machinè.
Earlier this week, Hadao Kojima himself tweeted about his exploration of the use of AI in warfare in MTG, and someone replied, TO KOJIMA HIMSELF, "Metal Gear isn't political"
I hate politics nowadays and even I know metal gear is political.
Thats..... Just wow. First. That is one of the MOST politically motivated series I have ever played. So heavily draped in both Satire and just actual political references. Its not even funny. But to tell the person that Created it what it is?
@@nunyabiz7699 It was very bizzare. I wish I'd screenshoted it because sure as the world I wouldn't be able to find it now
@@wesleypatterson2284 Yeah. I do not imagine if they had any self awareness they would want that to stay up. Maybe (hopefully) after a little thought they removed it. I legit can not fathom how they came to the conclusion besides just a knee jerk reaction. But To be fair. I fail to comprehend a LOT about people now adays. So yeah.
The whole, "stop making things political," argument is a weak ass way of saying, "I don't want to hear this," but without the gumption to actually say it. As people like that would say, that's a serious beta move.
I'm reminded of how Lindsey Ellis said "framing and aesthetic supersede the text." and I wonder just how far that can be taken.
To be fair, I'm pretty sure Armstrong's "I don't write my own speeches" line is referencing to his character lore-wise rather than literally in that scene. He flips a LOT during his scenes, but he canonically doesn't write his public speeches. It's even mentioned in the "leaked" audio as part of MGR's promotion leading up to the game where he's on a call with someone and thanks them for a speech they wrote for him, as it did wonders for his ratings. Armstrong does have some weird depth for essentially a joke character, like the "weak" being less of actually physically weak and more people who use twitter.
It can be taken as literal, but like everything else Kojima had a hand in writing in, it also goes deeper into actual lore. Also Armstrong is just an amazing villain and that fight combined with that music will never lose its magic. I'll admit, most of the looking into his character is more me coping with the fact that idolizing a man who uses orphan brains in militarized police is a bad thing
Yeah, I think they missed what Armstrong was actually ralking about by taking him at face value. He's absolutely a might makes right, take the power into your own hands type. But there is a tinge of subtlety to what those means, but they become obvious if you check the japanese version of his dialogue.
Tbh that doesn't make it that much better. Weak in that case would just be a stand in for "degenerate" which... yeah...
We know where this leads.
The greatest part about the Batman is when he realises what he's been doing is wrong and causing more harm than good and he starts doing the good thing and focuses on helping people and inspiring hope. That's what batman should be, the hope and growth that comes out of pain .not any of the Frank Miller bullshit.
God, I hope The Batman Part 2 is as good if not better than the first one
Did we read the same comic book? Batman literally says that guns are for cowards. Or are you talking about Millers later work like the goddamn Batman?
Isn't it funny how kids shows universally teach lessons like acceptance, sharing, forgiveness and then the older folks who made that content wonders why young folks are so interested in accepting others, the inequality of wealth, the rehabilitation of convicts instead of the punishment of them, and so on.
They literally taught us these lessons then got mad that we are trying to live by them.
They thought they were already living by those lesion and did not recognize the systematic extensions
Kids shows? It even goes back to adult shows, heroes of shows like Bonanza, Gunsmoke, or The Rifleman, The Lone Ranger etc. were never racist, or sexist, and generally opposed to anyone that was ( which was pretty much anyone else they came across. Yet the society that grew up on these shows didn't adopt those qualities even though those qualities were being shown as what a good person would uphold.
Our entertainment has always been hypocritical to some extent.
@@NelsonStJames some people grew up with Superman but in their minds he was Homelander.
I think you're discussing ideologically different groups of elders, here.
No. The people who get mad are different from the people who made the content. You're generalizing too much
Lindsey ellis actually made great commentary on this with the transformers films. If the character is framed as cool for ninety five percent of the time or if they're friend as being stupid, All the other nuance goes out the window. The transformer's example is that megan fox's character has a much better back story and reason to be in the Movie but because she's framed as a sex object people think she sucks.
But everyone sucks in those transformers films. They had some interesting ideas but the script was weak
She had a lot of interesting ideas I never realized it until she pointed it out I am sad she was chased off cause she always had something interesting to say
I haven't watched those in quite a while. What is her backstory?
@@animeking1357 Her back story is that she is the daughter of a mechanic who was arrested for boosting cars. And she had to spend a long time in juvee because she refused to write out her dad. Also because her father was mechanic she has incredible knowledge of how cars work. Midway through the film she's the one who realized that bumblebee isn't a normal car.
The Batman issue is one that's been bothering me for a long while. People read the dark knight returns or the killing Joke (which are great stories given the right context,) and start thinking that it's the definitive batman. That's how you get Snyder's Batman gunning people down and indirectly murdering people in prison.
Early batman comics had him gunning down bad guys with a Thompson machine gun. The comics code of 1954 put a stop to that.
@@sen5i In what issue? DC established his not kill rule in his first year so well before 1954. So far as I know he only shot one person in desperations and vocally lamented it when he did. And that was Batman #1 to stop Hugo Strange's henchmen from dropping mutated monster men in a populated area and killing people.
@@sen5i that was bob kane's Batman, not bill finger's Batman whom we've followed since before the comics code. All the comics code did was change the tone and type of villains he fought
I don't know if I'd put Killing Joke Batman in the same category as Dark Knight Returns Batman. Batman is trying to save Joker and rehabilitate him the whole time. Though the ending is debatable as to whether or not Batman Kills Joker.
I don't quite understand how you get from Dark Knight Returns and Killing Joke to Snyders Batman.
In Dark Knight Returns Batman only shoots one guy and that's it and that was a heightened situation somewhere in the middle, if I remember correctly that's one of 2 moments where he actually holds a gun and the only one where he kills someone.
In Killing Joke he doesn't even as much as pick up a gun. Not to mention killing somebody.
Is that really the connection Snyder made or just something people say?
I am one of those nerdy young men. And even though I try to keep my head out of those mindsets, every now and then a thought creeps in and asks the question "am I enough"? My girlfriend has a type and I know that. Not really about body type with her but face and hair and such. Sometimes that comes to my mind and I ask her if I can be more her type she tells me "I don't think you can and I don't want you to. I still think you're cute and I love you" and after watching this, I realised that I didn't get what she was actually telling me whenever she said that and that I don't appreciate enough whenever she tells me that I'm enough the way I am and that, even though there might be people out there who might fit better to her, she still chose me and loves me.
You guys are amazing! I hope Fact Fiend and the Untitled Side Channel will be around for a long time to come. Keep being awesome!
This is amazing! It's great reading this and I hope you're doing great!
The problem is what women say they want and what they do are different.(so do men, but I have found asking women to be unreliable)
Billions is spent on Psychological research to use this information to sell us shit.
Can we have more discussions like this, please?
Karl and Brad fairly demonstrating positive masculinity is so refreshing to see.
I thought men do that all the time?
I dunno, the tall one seems to like the sound of his own voice.
@@Cheepchipsable we all should, our voice isnt something to be ashamed about
@@CheepchipsableI like the sound of his voice. If you don’t, you don’t have to listen to it
To prove lack of self awareness, the sigma male was a piss-take at alpha male mindsets (primarily in the form of memes) and there are now people who unironically refer to themselves as sigma males all over the place.
Edit: Grammar
IIRC sigma male was made up by Vox Day; he created his own version of that kind of dominance hierarchy to include the gamma and omega male, among others.
When he was asked what category he fell into, he created the sigma male to justify him not qualifying for the category of alpha according to his own definitions
So now it lends itself to odd people with delusions of grandeur and no self awareness
My uncle unironically called me a beta once. Knowing he loves fish I asked why he was calling me an airbreathing tropical fish. Yes, I know it's not spelled the same way, but is shut him up.
@@Craxin01 Sometimes the best way to fight is to play "crouching moron hidden badass".
Each time I hear an unifornic Sigma male proclamation I instantly go "JUZDIEZELLOOOOOOOO" because all I can think of is Sigma from Megaman X when he's a zombie.
I hope if you guys do a follow up episode of this, you should definitely talk about Patrick Bateman whos the poster boy of misunderstood character's being idolized by weird men online. Its frustrating not being able to discuss this movie because of how fundamentally misunderstood it is online.
I don't even know how you can misunderstand that one, the title of the movie says it all.
@@darksteelmenace595- You'd be amazed how many villains have misaimed fandoms.
@@darksteelmenace595It makes sense when you remember that there are literal serial killers who have unironic fandoms.
The GOAT bateman was "idealized" since the book came out in the 90's
@astk5214 the book is a satire on insecure materialistic finance bros in the 80s, it's not idealizing its actively making fun of people like bateman
I think the Skylar hatred can also be on a subconscious level of - "oh, this'll be a dull scene" Just because regular family stuff just isn't as fun to watch as action
Oh that definitely has an effect too, especially if you watch it at a younger age. I remember feeling the awkward tension in those scenes when I was in HS, but I didn't appreciate the depth of what that tension meant and just found em annoying and exhausting
I found her a little annoying and frustrating at times but the sheer volume of hate she gets is ridiculous.
@brunoshiffman5343 even as someone who thinks she's WAAAAY too hated as a character, that scene still makes me shudder. Horrible experience, and tbh I think that's how they intended that scene to be received lol
I think it's more "Skylar is being nagging towards my big pimp Daddy that I wanna be, so shut up annoying woman and let cool drug Daddy be cool Drug Daddy so I can pretend I'm him"
It's crazy how outlandish an idea like, "Don't be a dick!" Is to some people 😅
something to note i feel is the importance of charisma, a lot of people in breaking bad for example could be considered bad people and aren’t loathed and many who could be considered good people but are loathed, Skyler for example, it’s not a matter of being a good person it’s a matter of lacking charisma which makes her understandably unlikable to many and is what makes Walter, Gus, The salamancas, and so on more likable. Kind of like a rpg, it doesn’t matter how right you are if you have no charisma people wont like you and if they don’t like you they wont support you.
I want to hug you guys so badly i love you so much
You have no idea how happy i felt hearing trans rights being discussed.
These issues genuinely affect my entire life and it feels so great to have people talking about them with something more nuanced and logical than blind hate.
Well, as a former LGBT and feminist ally-turned-bisexual trans woman, I learned from experience that both causes can solve men's problems!
I was in a play, called the producers, which is a musical written by Mel Brooks and I play the ex-Nazi who wrote the play Springtime for Hitler. It's a hilarious production, and I had a lot of fun doing it because I got to yell at people and toss them around a little bit. Unfortunately, one of my dumb friends, when discussing neo-Nazis, thought that I agreed with them and liked them, because I played that role, not understanding that it was a satirical role written by a Jewish man who served in World War II. Some people really genuinely don't get what acting is, and that you don't have to agree with the kind of person that you were playing to play that person, because it is the sign of an intelligent mind to entertain an idea without believing in it.
I used to be in a different high school than the rest of high school during my first semester and I was floored, baffled, when I heard guys unironically loving and saying Cartman was their favorite character and the best character out of South Park. I genuinely don't know what those guys had in their heads.
I'm more afraid of life and society, of people, the more I get to know people and get to learn how violent, mindless and unreflective they are.
I know it's a cliche but as a sociology major, it's really heartbreaking to learn how people are.
I mean, Cartman's one of my favorite characters, and I think he's one of the best characters in South Park, but that's BECAUSE he's so horrible. Neither of those things mean I approve of his actions.
@Korgan Rocks Yeah, I agree. I love Cartman as a character. I do nor idolize or sympathize him and I thoroughly enjoy when he gets his comeuppance
@@BenBoyee I genuinely wouldn't have guessed there was any other way to enjoy Cartman until I heard about this phenomenon!
@@korganrocks3995 I agree, but I don't think you're cheering on his actions and saying you think he's the best…
@@korganrocks3995 and I agree, I found it so weird when most for the guys and a few girls in the classroom had the same idea, it was a private school as opposed to the rest of my high school, I think that's an important detail and they didn't know each other prior to this. This may speak more about the desensitization of highly privileged people than about anything else, though.
The fans misunderstanding of Rorschach (mostly thanks to the movie) has infuriated me for years. It isn't just him psychotically beating random people senseless, Rorschach is also overtly sexist, racist and homophobic. He repeatedly insults and belittles his friends. He has an open respect for the complete monster Comedian, even calling his attempted rape of Silk Specter a "moral lapse". Hell, take the infamous fryer scene. The fans love quoting "You're locked in here with me!" and propping it up as a supreme badass moment. But if you've read the comics, the scene is immediately followed by his psychiatrist describing the horrific burns of the prisoner, lamenting Rorschach's declining mental state and marking the beginning of the psychiatrist's own mental decline from dealing with Rorschach. "I'm not locked in here with you, you're locked in here with me!" isn't the fearless boast of a badass, it's the psychotic lashing out of a pathetic and broken man.
This is why media literacy should be taught more in school.
Sure that's what the writer intended. But let's really take it into scope of the story. A mentally unstable man Stood against a god and Rich genius psychopath And compromised heroes That killed so many people To have A false piece.
Like the Test his based off of He sure does know how to unveil the true nature of the man It looks upon him.
"You're locked in here with me!" Can confirm I'm guilty of saying this but I didn't know it was from this series. I started saying it after seeing people use it with Doom and it's the Doom Guy saying it to demons.
LOL, but the movie doesn't show that does it?
@@Cheepchipsableindeed, it's almost funny how many people criticized the movie for not being a 1:1 of the comic and then you've people arguing from the comic pov with people who only watched the movie.
And sensitivity training.
“talk to a woman that you trust, and that you aren’t trying to sleep with” is advice that honestly, if everyone took, would fix like, minimum 30% of the problems in the world
I think the reverse of this would help also I don't think everyone understands a problem until the really see the outcomes
Lol thats dogshit asvice
Funny how someone might hear that and start wondering which women in their lives are like that and won't even briefly consider someone like their mother, a sister, or any other family member.
Yes, because women are automatically just better than men in all areas.
@@Cheepchipsable did you know that there are estimates that as many as half of all US adults are functionally illiterate? meaning they can decode letters into words, but cannot read well enough to synthesize those words into concrete ideas. Sometimes, I really find that number hard to believe. and then I check my youtube replies.
THANK YOU SO MUCH for your support of the trans community. I was totally unprepared to hear Karl passionately defend my rights in this video, but I apparently needed to hear that. It gave me happy tears and made me feel so seen. You're amazing. I wish I could work with you somehow.
as another trans person (coincidentally named kelly) whos been scared about coming out to people because of the things happening right now. i also am extremely thanksfull and wasn’t expecting youse to have that conversation and it kinda made my day
There's been a lot of support for the Trans community from the Fact Fiend crew before, I really suggest you going back to the earliest videos of their catalog in the Fact Friend channel if you're new-ish to the channel and you might catch a glimpse of their ethics and political stances. They're the greatest RUclips channel in my opinion.
I hope you both, Kelly and Kelly, are doing great and that people gives you all the respect and love you deserve!!!
Send you a hug, much love and positive energy!
Remember asking Karl on a livestream about his opinion on Graham Linehan, given he likes The IT Crowd.
His response was "Yeah he's a bellend" before going on to explain to the audience that Graham tried to defund a trans children's charity and (at the time) Hbomberguy's DK64 stream was going on to spite glinner and raise money for that same charity.
So yeah Karl is a good egg.
Professionally unprofessional.
To be fair to Batman, the guy came to him swinging a machete. The main purpose of why he did that, was to send a message to the group to stop their activities of harrasing and beating people.
If you noticed what they were looking at on their phone earlier in the subway, you would see this gang is doing this stuff all around Gotham. This was supposed to be a clear message for them to stop, and while extreme, I think that is the point of the film.
Great video otherwise.
I would add that another point of the film is that this level of violence often serves to beget more violence. The fact that the Riddler was inspired by the Batman is an important aspect of the film.
Man I don’t get why people think that liking a character means you want to emulate them. Like I’ve said I like Scar from Lion King and the Joker from Batman the Animated Series, and was criticized not for lack of taste but because they are the bad guys. I like them as Villains to see the Hero fight and hopefully succeed.
Great heroes are only as good as the villains they fight and prevail against.
I’m non binary and disabled and I wanna say thanks. You’re all rad and it’s nice to see people be so openly accepting even though I consider that to just be basic human decency lol
It's sad how rare basic human decency is. It's always nice for us to get that support, though. Keep being you, hun 🤍💛💜🖤
I recently rewatched Breaking Bad with the mindset you suggested, and it was, like, MAGICAL how different it was a viewing experience. Oh my God, my perspective on Skyler did a complete 180, where once I felt bad for Jesse my heart now BROKE for him, and found myself almost violently angry at Walter, poopooing his every word and calling him every awful name in the book, no sympathy for him whatsoever. When Skylar said "I f****d Ted" I actually audibly cheered for her, I loved how she was sticking it to Walt. But also just how bizarre it was that I absolutely hated Walt, like, from the beginning. I'm screaming at him that he's making every dumb decision he can possibly make, where once as a teen I cheered him on thinking he was the genius he claimed to be. Walt is a stupid, pathetic, sad, angry, petty little man who has to be the big man. He could have had it all, but no! Him and his pride and his ego!
I had this moment that struck me across the face like a baseball bat; Breaking Bad is a show about personas. Jesse is a great example of this. Jesse acts like this badass, but it can't be further from that. There were two moments early on that show this: when he's trying to get the money from the couple that stole from Skinny Pete, and when his parents kick him out. When he breaks into their house, he sees a kid and he makes him lunch. When the guy gets his head crushed with the ATM, Jesse's first reaction is to call the cops and put the kid out front telling him he hopes he gets a better life.
Then we see Jesse's family. When his parents find weed in their house, Jesse admits it's his and leaves without much conflict. Then we find out that the weed actually belonged to his little brother, his parents' golden child. He doesn't throw his little brother under the bus and even crushes it saying it was terrible weed anyways. I see this as Jesse's way of stopping his brother from smoking any more by destroying the one he had and telling him where he got it from was giving out low quality stuff, hopefully preventing his brother from going there again.
We also come to realize that Jesse actually lived a pretty privileged life in this episode. The neighborhood he grew up in had green foliage in an area that is hot and dry, large houses, people jogging, all the hallmarks of an upper middle class neighbor. We even see that Jesse was a pretty smart kid. He never had a hard life, practically grew up with a silver spoon in his mouth, but was emulating a culture he thought was cool and fell in with the wrong crowd leading into him not taking school seriously and his use of harder drugs like meth.
Jesse is a good person, pretending to be bad. While Walt is a bad person pretending to be good.
One of the sad things about the whole Peter Griffin one? He used to be good! He used to be, as the show's name implied, a family guy! He actually cared about his family and protected and stood up for and emotionally supported them. But as the seasons went on, the show kinda lost that sprit and they just embraced the whole "assholes are easier to write, funny and make us money" trope of show writing.
Wish I could have sent this video to myself in the 90’s. I made some boneheaded choices because it’s what I thought a guy should do. Thankfully, I didn’t go down the hate path. I did eventually get honest with myself and became a much happier person.
I'm happy for you lad :)
Not a character but the entire movie “full metal jacket”.
The entire movie is “ay yo… wars kinda shit bro…”
Yet people look at it and think it’s top gun levels of hur dur army cool.
(That’s not a diss on Top Gun btw I was just using it to make my point)
Goddammit Karl. Why you gotta make me cry? That little "you're welcome here" bit got me in a way I really didn't expect. Thank you.
In reference to the last part, I want to ask these people " do you actually think you're a good person for hating others?"
The problem with Watchmen is that Zach Snyder missed the point from Alan Moore’s comics. The comics had 2 scenes where Rorschach broke someone’s hand in a bar to get information. The movie decides to remove the first one, where it was just some guy who insulted him, and he didn’t get any information. But he decided to leave the one where the guy threatened him and provided useful information.
During the flashback of his first murder, in the comics he says that he went to 14 different bars assaulting people until one person finally knew and told him where to find the kidnapped girl. The movie just says “broke a man’s arm to get a tip” leaving out the other people who were seriously hurt for no reason
I met quite a few dudes who didn't know Fight Club was dark satire. It's mindboggling. My favorite though is This US Rebuplican saying he works out to Rage Against the machine, while being oblivious to the fact that he is a main part of said machine.
I'm not going to pretend that Rorschach is good but he brings up the question of necessary evil. The problem with the justice system is that a lot of evil exploits it and a lot of people are hurt by the same system that's supposed to help them. I won't say the name of the individual in the court system that I'm referencing but this individual in court had exploited the legal system which allowed him to get away with taking advantage of a child, sexually. A lot of people would have taken justice into their own hands because even though the evidence was there the case was pushed past its statute of limitations. The obvious criminal got away. The idea of due process doesn't account for the limited time available to save a victim. As a person aspiring to be good, I would still refrain from taking justice into my own hands but if I have to kill a villain to save the victim then that's the part where I have to choose between being an absolute standard of good that let evil occur or if I am being a necessary evil. It's a clear grey area. A lot of people like Rorschach, not because he's cool, but because these characters say and express things that people in real-world society understand the feeling of. That's what I think you and the writer didn't understand. You can hate the character but if real-world people experience the exact thing these characters are fighting against then the character starts to look more heroic even if said character is an evil bastard.
Walter White is pretty evil but from the perspective of a lot of viewers, he's the good guy because the viewers have been screwed over in life and related to that feeling of wanting to get back at the person they felt screwed them.
Then there are characters like Cartman and Randy Marsh. Randy didn't start off nearly as evil or stupid as he let himself behave later in the series. While these characters have despicable aspects they do things that a lot of real people would like to do.
Ask yourself, why people are idolizing these evil/less good characters? You need to empathize with the common people rather than just say "they don't understand".
as a trans viewer, i do greatly appreciate your solid support for trans people. even if it makes a dozen shitheads uncomfortable, it meant something to a member of the group that you're defending.
Yet more quality content from FF - As someone with pretty shit media literacy it's always a joy to see the vibes of a show given form by people who can really articulate it!
a few characters you missed are Patrick Bateman of American Psycho and Billy Butcher of The Boys
as well as homelander, somehow
Yeah people idolise Billy Butcher wayyy too much. He's a horrible person with a sympathetic story and I feel like that's the link between most of these people that disenfranchised men idolise: they are either sympathetic monsters or charismatic monsters
@@justelliot4870 when you look at how he acts in the show with the context of what he does near the end of the comics, it's pretty easy to notice just how much of an asshole he is, and that he's leading up to something horrible, it's the Walter White effect
As a trans woman, I just want to thank you for being you.
Me too
I love how much the fact fiend channel stand behind the lgbt community
Something I'd like to comment on, about the section about men, in particular.
I'm of the mind that 99% of the men that are being described by you in this video aren't actually misogynists, they're insecure and become self-centered as a result.
I've noticed that a lot of the time, the reason a lot of men are insecure about their flaws, or their height, is because they have to live with it on a daily basis, and when they do try to talk to people they're interested in (lets assume women for the sake of conversation), they strike out and then blame their insecurities for their failures. A lot of the women I've talked to on the subject of long-term relationships are less concerned about physical attraction than they are personality. A shorter heftier guy with a great sense of humor and a quick wit is a lot more attractive than a tall, buff guy with neither.
By the same token, most men who are insecure aren't looking for long-term relationships, they are looking for someone to validate them, to prove to themselves that they aren't unattractive. I personally believe that's why we see these types of men (and women) who end up in these long-term relationships becoming unfaithful, and ruining their partners self-esteem/self worth, because they found someone else who they personally find more attractive, who also gives them the validation they're seeking.
On the flip side, too, women who aren't interested in a long-term partnership are the ones who will have the much higher physical standards for their partner. Someone who can be fun for a night or a week, and then it's over.
The reverse is also true to some certain extent, where women who are insecure look for higher standards, to validate themselves, and describe wanting short-term partners who become long-term, and that usually isn't very healthy, either.
In my opinion, the solution isn't so much to meet a woman who you DON'T want to be with emotionally, but rather to just. Go to therapy, and work on yourself, so that you can validate yourself without the need for an outside input. Find a hobby that can distract that inner dialogue that pokes at your insecurities; find a partner who doesn't just tell you what you want to hear, but actually respects you and makes up for the perceived flaws you have, that you actually enjoy spending time with. It might not solve the 1%'s misogyny, but it will definitely lead to a happier life for the other 99%.
Great video!
Rorschach is based on the Question (originally this was going to involve Charleston Comics characters after DC bought them but they decided to change it to original characters). The Question is an Objectivst (like the Ayn Rand thing that Bioshock is a satire of) and is basically a fascist. He's homophobic and misogynistic. He's trying to solve the death of The Comedian, a war criminal who murdered a woman he impregnated to prove a point to Dr. Manhattan and who tried to r@pe on of his friends, but he still defends him. Also people defending the Joker confuses me too. He's absurdism taken to the extreme. Nothing matters everything is a joke. Why stay sane in a crazy world? Batman: The Killing Joke is him trying to prove that one bad day is all you need to turn an upstanding citizen into him to Commissioner Gordon and Batman and he fails. It's about ending the cycle of abuse. The point of a society is that we all work together to make a better place for everyone and the solution to the world not making any sense isn't to just blow stuff up and murder people. It's to make it better by helping people. Ugh. No wonder Alan Moore quit comics. Media literacy is dead. Trans rights are human rights
Trans rights are important.
Where is it written what the "point" of a society is?
Objectivism as a philosophy promotes individual rights and liberties. How is that considered "fascist"? Mr. A was Ditko's "Objectivist" character, published independently, while the Question, published by Charlton, is a lighter, more comics-friendly version of Mr. A.
I am truly curious to understand why you think Objectivism and/or The Question are fascist? Rorschach is obviously Alan Moore's take on the character, but is also obviously not what Ditko intended.
Trans rights should be no greater or lesser than any other person's rights. To say otherwise is to miss the point of the universality of rights in a society.
@@macsnafu I think they meant that Rorschach was a fascist and just phrased it weird (or perhaps he made an edit and forgot to change the first part). The rest is about Rorschach, and Rorschach *is* a fascist - he's a moral lesson on how Objectivism, like all philosophies, can also be used to justify very bad things.
Rorschach was the most heroic character in Watchmen. Bar none. Yes, I understand what Moore was trying to say with the character, but Moore is a communist masquerading as an anarchist. His politics are a little fucked, so the character, that's supposed to be a take-down of conservatives, backfired big time. Happens all the time.
I’ve seen people idolize homelander recently. You know the guy who let a bunch of people die in a plane crash, SA’d butcher’s wife then abuses the child,fell in love with a N*ZI and forced a girl to commit suicide?
I'm very glad you guys are phrasing it like that, as that helps me sum up the problems I have with by no means the most criminally misunderstood TV finale ever (and why I'm calling it that), but with the reactions (!) to it, by simply saying: A certain dragon queen belongs on that list (see especially what you say about Rorschach, though that's just one aspect of it)...
When they say that it's "becoming political" what they actually mean is that it's either becoming less conservative or less subtle to the point where they no longer agree with it or can't ignore it.
100% hit the nail on the head
Look, I hate when folks bitch about media getting more political just because it includes a minority in a prominent role or has some smart/tasteful commentary or subtext on political issues. I do, however, have an issue when a message is being shoved down my throat, in a movie that was not billed as a political treatise. For instance, if I go to see an action movie I’m fine with a female presenting character being a competent and and absolute badass but what would annoy me would be if the plot grinds to a halt so it can preach at me about why, say, America is evil (I know the US is bad in may ways) or capitalism is the biggest evil since Satan.
Or because the industry has lost any and all capacity for nuance and decided to just start shoving whatever message makes them the most money down the audience's throat.
@@maskedgaming2798 That's just bad writing, though, not the politics themselves. I can think of some very, VERY anvillicious stories (Astro Boy LITERALLY bludgeons you over robot rights and what it means to be human-- and I mean the 2003 series not the movie, movie was trash compared to any of the three series, even the 1963 one) that were still great.
I mean, /gestures at own pfp. Getter Robo is half about nuclear power and its fears and hopes, one of its protagonist characters is a literal anti-government terrorist, and it literally talks about intergalactic warfare and humanity being seen by aliens as imperialistic conquerors who will raze a swathe through the universe if we're not wiped out, with the counterpoint offered being that Getter Ray's chosen humanity and is protecting us from these pre-emptive strikes from aliens that don't want to be conquered... And the Getter Robo pilots prove the aliens were right to be afraid.
Messages can be shoved down your throat VERY OBVIOUSLY, but in a way that's enjoyable anyway, when the thing is WRITTEN WELL.
Bad writing is bad writing and will be unenjoyable no matter what the politics are or how loud the anvil drop is.
I'm tired of people claiming it's "shoving things down your throat" when either the issue you have is the FLAVOR being shoved down your throat or the BAD WRITING.
Maybe for some people, but for me it can mean two things. One is lack of nuance. The other is lack of in-universe consistency.
For example, the Star Wars galaxy has it's own politics separate from the USA, so it would be out of place if 3P0 was racist against Lando. However, it does make sense for him to be racist against Chewy.
About that scene with Rorschach in prison, the power dynamics in prison is a lot more complicated as it looks. Broadly, it is "Might is Right", but generally speaking, prisoners who attack other prisoners on sight to that extreme are very unpopular. Usually, a prisoner threatening you is sizing you up for everyone else to see if you'll stand up for yourself or if you're a pushover, but no one wants to be bunked with psychopaths. So, him sticking up for himself is fine. Him boiling a guy alive is too far
That's Karl's point (but I agree he could have explained that more clearly)
I think a huge part of this is that we think just because we love the character in the story we have to see them as the good guy and ignore their flaws or pretend they do nothing wrong.
There's a similar thing in the Warhammer 40,000 fandom; lots of people (often people who've joined relatively recently but believe they're "original fans") don't realise that 40K lore is satire.
It's not a satire, it was a parody of Warhammer fantasy that became it's own thing, there is definitly some goofy stuff but the entire series it's not a satire it's more an epic than anything else
The setting is a sci-fi reflection of the Old World, certainly - to the extent that there once was lore suggesting that the WFB Old World was contemporary to 40K and took place on a small out-of-the-way planet isolated by warp storms or some such.
But satire doesn't mean it's "goofy stuff"; satire is something that uses humour, ridicule, wit, exaggeration and so on to make a point. 40K is a product of its time, and in many ways the power structures and conflicts in it were created to satirise things like thatcherian Britain, authoritarianism, religion, colonialism, xenophobia, fascism, class, bureaucracy and so much more. Rick Priestley himself said that many people in recent years often missed the social criticisms inherent in the game.
@@awmperry again W40K satarted up as a parody of WF that evolved into it's own thing, that why pieces of lore that the one you mentioned are no longer canon, the satire aspects as tone of the setting were left behind anda replaced with a more grindark and epic tone, there is some satirical stuff but it's not the main focus. W40K it's massive and it's really hard to get a general idea without missing something after all the comisssar Ciaphas Cain and the Daemonculaba are part of the same setting.
I think we may have some crossed wires in translation. Satire and grimdark aren’t mutually exclusive; just look at Swift’s Modest Proposal, for instance. The satirical elements - the social criticism inherent in things like depicting the Imperium as “good guys”, for instance - never went away. The *comedy* has been toned down drastically (to the setting’s detriment, in my view), but satire never needs to be comedic.
Satire and parody aren’t the same thing, and that’s an important distinction to draw in a discussion like this.
Alan Moore is one of my favorite writers.
When watching his BBC maestro course he said "All good stories should come from your own political view".
I started a fight club in grade 3, never having even heard of anything like it, let alone the movie.
We were just a bunch of rowdy kids who wanted to show off the taekwondo or boxing or karate or whatever that we were all learning after school lol.
Also, super love the support of trans folks and our community. It really means a lot, especially right now.
Well there have been boxing clubs forever.
I like it that the two of you at the end started talking about what you think is the reason why people do this and the question you tried to answer is one without one as there isn't one that sticks 100% of the time and there could be cases where several or non stick and its a different reason. I love your two separate ideas and opinions and it shows wonderfully the point of the bigger idea at the very end, Its beautiful.
I find it funny when people say that star trek has become "too political". My response is usually "you've... you've seen star trek, right?"
The whole trans rights conversation reminded me of the first time I ever saw the statement Trans Rights are Human Rights I was so confused because I instinctively assumed that it would have been the case. I was a lot younger when I first saw it and recently discovered that I’m trans, so thanks a ton for the whole passionately defense in our rights.
Yeah, the Rorschach segment is the reason I have a hard time staying pro death penalty. As much as I believe that some people/crimes are deserving of the Death Penalty, our (USA) criminal justice system puts too many innocent people in jail to make me comfortable with the death penalty.
Small point of order, Rorschach isn't based on Batman. He's based off of a Steve Ditko character called 'The Question', who in the incarnation Alan Moore referenced in Watchman was a much more ethically ambiguous character than Batman (at least, the Batman that's evolved since the 1950s).
On this note one of the most disturbing things you'll see if you see someone react to Death Note online and read the comments is all the people crawling out of the woodwork to tell the reactor and other commentors that Light's plan actually makes sense and only goes bad once he starts killing FBI agents. The plan by the way is to kill off a group of undesirables(in this case criminals and anyone that would defend them) be worshipped as a god and use his brutal methods as a deterrent to future criminals. He's the moat basic authoritarian dictator you could imagine with a magic book but anytime the series is discussed online there's always someone trying to make a case for him.
Handsome Jack had a point. Because 1. in borderlands its easy to argue theres very few or no truly good characters and 2. in jacks screwed up world view he IS a hero and his idealistic goal justifies any means of getting to it, but he cant see the violence will never lead to peace etc because that would mean hes wrong and hes a narcissist, that can never be his head cannon.
Thats pretty good writing, hes one of the best ever game villains. So many people argue hes misunderstood or the hero because hes a charismatic narcissist with BPD who lives in delusional, hes very convincing and easy to empathise with and feel sorry for and people then decide hes right because they like him, sometimes you like a well written psychopath.
Thank you for this. It grates me when people are legit defending people like Homelander thinking they are actually the hero and go out of their way to justly(or just ignore) the horrible and homicidal tendencies
For me when Skylar showed Walt all the money she couldn’t launder and had it piled up in that storage room and she asks him when do we stop?
He originally was going to make enough to make sure his family was taken care of when he passed, but that clearly went to the wayside and was in it for the power. I knew right there this isn’t going to end well for Walt.
The thing with Armstrong is, even before we meet him, we know exactly what his vision of the world intends. Kicking down peaceful countries to start conflict, armies made up of thousands of orphans put through literally hell just like Raiden, sold to people who trample on the lives of others. When you consider that Armstrong’s goal is to just imitate the patriots, the same mess that forged Raiden? People who agree with him have forgotten that we have already experienced exactly the terrible costs his vision entails. Agreeing with Armstrong also meant endorsing his actions, which is why Raiden rejects him so strongly.
Armstrong feels many more people should be like Raiden, but Raiden, being someone who has walked that long, dreadful road, doesn’t want this for anyone else. The game was really him accepting how broken he was (which he usually covered up under the guise of being a tool of justice) while also showing that he was ultimately grounded by the people he loved. This is what separates him from the other desperadoes, he actually has things in the normal world that he loves and protects. They seek violence to fill some aspect of their being, they are not the same. Even Jetstream Sam was completely numb because all he did was kill without purpose or reason; and it was that lack of resolve that made it impossible for him to overcome Armstrong, who was extremely determined and focused on achieving chaos as an outsider looking in.
Excited to watch this video! Love seeing new uploads from you guys!!! Also to be fair theres no good characters to idolize in Breaking Bad lol.
I always found it interesting that as the series went on Hank becomes the hero and Walter the Villain though at the beginning you sympathise with Walter because of his situation and hate Hank as he's an insensitive idiot.
It isn't a "weird internet thing" that wants things they like to be good. It is everyday, normal human behaviour. The internet might distill it, but it doesn't create it
Two things:
On Karls woman advice point, it's one of the reasons I am so glad I have a sister, with whom I have a good relationship with now. We chat about things like this all the time, and it helps me stay grounded, and makes it so there is someone who I can go to and will check me if I need to be checked. Any guys here who have sisters or female cousins that you have regular contact with, if possible, I implore you to make sure you improve your relationship with them and talk to them. For any teenagers, this will be a really important thing to build for yourselves to keep your mental health stable.
As a very tall man, yes, it's not the and all be all of whether a woman wants me or not. I'm sure Karl can attest to this, it's usually at best a nice little bonus though, like having beautiful eyes or a great smile, etc. If that were all I could go off of, I would be the loneliest dude on the planet. Always seek to find ways to improve yourself, cause at the end of the day that is the best most of us can do.
I know I'm really late to leaving a comment, but whatever. (Obviously my opinion) Why I think Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul work so well together is the former is about a bad man breaking bad, whereas the latter is about a good man breaking bad. Obviously Saul is no angel, but you can tell he is essentially a kind hearted person. Especially at the end of the series (without spoiling). Obviously he makes mistakes, but he never truly feels proud of himself. The exact opposite can be said for Walter. A inherently 'bad' man who finally found an avenue to express his evil side. One of the many reasons why these shows truly work hand in hand together.
I’ve got another one, or rather two: Scott Pilgrim AND Ramona Flowers. Sure Scott is the protagonist and he’s a great fighter, but he’s not a good person by any means: he dated a seventeen-year-old girl at age twenty-three (22 in the movie), started dating Ramona while still dating the fake high school girlfriend and didn’t dump her until like a couple weeks or so later, doesn’t really try to get to know Ramona as a person, doesn’t take responsibility for his actions, and he becomes increasingly awful and insensitive to Ramona as time goes on. And again, Ramona is not off the hook here: she toyed with the feelings of five guys (two of whom were twins), one girl, and it took a possessive nut job like Gideon to make her realize that maybe she should change how she treats her partners. And even then, she is way too secretive around Scott, especially concerning her evil exes! Now yes, the two do learn their lessons and decide to try their relationship again at the end of the comic and movie, but maaan did it take a lot of self-reflection.
For the record, I adore the Scott Pilgrim franchise and I can’t wait for the upcoming anime adaptation of the comic! I just can’t see Scott as a hero until the very end of the story
I watched the movie about a week ago I couldn't believe what I was watching. This wasn't the epic anime like series I was promised! This sucks! Scott's not cool wtf? So yeah someone along the line some people must've started idolizing Scott.
I don't recall the movie, but I knock that in the comic, Rorschach shot his grapnel gun at a cop at close range while trying to escape. It landed the guy in the hospital at least.
I’ve see that in other shows too! Like people praising this guy and saying how much he loved this female character and how she was an annoying betraying (insert various female insults). He kidnapped her and forced her to marry him! But he’s romantic because he genuinely cares for her. He’s trying to kill the person she actually loves too. Or the people saying what a good man Daemon is from House of the Dragon and how they either ignore that he grabbed his wife by the throat or they complain that it’s out of character. He killed his first wife! Look I love that character, I like a lot of characters that aren’t good people. You can like a character and recognize how awful of a person he is.
One of the first and biggest you didn’t mention - though probably because few remember him today: Archie Bunker from All in the Family. He was meant to be a lampoon of conservative culture in the early 70s, but it shocked both Norman Lear (the producer) and Carroll O’Connor (the actor) just how many people looked to him as a role model.
As a nonbinary person, what Karl said is legitimately heartwarming. What a group of amazing people.
I've noticed that people are not a fan of cognitive dissonance, regardless of its source. So I don't find it all that shocking when people that are confronted by something that directly conflicts with their existing perception and/or bias it instantly translates into them becoming overtly hostile towards that conflicting information rather than critically thinking about why they're so upset by that new information.
Thanks for making this video. I hope at least a few people re-assessed their idolisations of those kinds of characters. Even if many just don't listen, every now and then you will have someone who is reached, and I think even if it's just one, this video was worth it.
There's another example I'd like to bring up of characters that wind up idolized but don't deserve to be and that's Vegeta from Saiyan Saga all the way up to when he goes Majin in DB. Throughout the entirety of his run there, while we get glimpses of the better man he could become? Vegeta's worst traits are still mostly front and center and it's specifically those traits that get idolized and propped up as being an example of being an "alpha" badass. Granted some of this comes from the dub where they changed up lines not knowing the effect they'd have which resulted in Vegeta coming across as a sympathetic anti-hero who was forced into villainy whereas in the original Japanese and the manga, he is a callous petty narcissistic murdering bully which is really summed up in his speech as a Majin when Supreme Kai is baffled by his obsession over his pride and he just goes on to basically whine about how Goku has been better than him and yet that version of Vegeta is held up as the pinnacle of badassery along with his other horrid traits and much for the same reasons as why someone may like Cartman? I think part of it is definitely because he insults people and expresses zero care for anyone but himself.
If you discount filler, the saga where Vegeta has the lowest murder count is actually the Saiyan arc. Ironically the only one he truly has an antagonist role.
Saiyan Saga: He only kills Nappa
Namek Saga: He murders an entire village of Namekians
Android Saga: He murders a few civilian drivers in his attempt to take out 18.
Buu Saga: Kills a good hundred bystanders to convince Goku to fight him.
@@takeru3159 I feel like there are a few crucial details that are being missed and that's how Vegeta is also throughout most of the story a belligerent arrogant asshole.
I think part of the Vegeta fandom is due to how completely annoying Goku can be. They can't even get behind other characters because Dragonball has been the Vegeta and Goku show for some time now. My favourite character's are Piccolo and Krillin (not early Krillin) and it wasn't until an initially non-canon movie that Piccolo finally got any real attention for some time.
@@nathanthom8176 I can get behind that but again, it misses a few crucial details here and in this case it's trying to use the point on the Vegeta fandom to just let loose some frustrations about DB in general. I'm referring to, in my original post in order to be relevant to the video topic, the sections of Vegeta fans who look at his worst traits from the Saiyan Saga up until Boo like his lack of respect towards anyone else but himself, his posturing and stand-offish attitude and more and idolize that while completely missing every point where Vegeta shows and how Toriyama writes him that he isn't someone to be idolized.
Like Goku can be annoying but generally speaking, his most irritating fans are not people propping up his worst traits though I'm sure they exist, it's people who basically prop Goku up as the ultimate badass and can never handle anyone suggesting he can be beaten which drifts away from the topic at hand.
I gotta say Vegeta is one of my absolute favorite characters from DB (tho I will admit thats mostly because of abridged). Not because he's a good person or a role model in any way, but because he actually has some growth (yes, he does revert to his problematic baseline often but still). I think he has some of the best moments in DB
"all media is political" made me realize that the webcomic I'm working on is also political. it's about a witch apprentice in the 14th century. sooo yeah at some point they have to hash it out with the church, a political power.
Every so often a creator I fallow turns out to be a transphobe and it sucks so I’m so glad with people like you who are so open with your support it’s appreciated
Damn, you guys were on point in this video, very nuanced good arguments. I think that people get into characters for being relatable, and then they become a reflection of that person. Like, maybe I understand the feeling of being embarrassed by my financial status, so now I feel like “oh, Walter White is like me, and I want to be strong, and I want to believe I’m a good person so I have to feel like Walter at least was a good person at some point and is strong as a power fantasy.” I think people are uncomfortable with gray areas. People don’t like to think about how George Washington had slaves, or that Hitler liked dogs:that people are complicated and that even awful people have some good points, and that people can do great things and truly heinous things in their life.
Any version of "fallen" Superman.
I mean like he is in _Injustice_ where something happens that causes him to forsake his humanity and become the "vengeful god"
you are the one who did not understand fight club, it is not a criticism of toxic masculinity, it is a criticism of the self-repression of masculinity that is categorized as toxic masculinity and that the consequence of repressing aggressiveness and being assertive is man committing a high level of violence. By the way, how bad is Tyler going to be? I wanted to destroy the financial system that is a hero for me xd
Lol, just today I saw a rep. Politician (U.S.) quoting Rorschach. They are far gone.
It's still surprising to me when online channels actually express pro-trans rights views and that makes me both sad and angry.
You are all just brilliant, the whole team. The exact sort of people I would actually want to hang out with for those massive chats you have!
My go to example of this is Dracula in Castlevania. He is not right. He is insane. Nobody except Isaac thinks he's right and Isaac only thinks he's right because he idolises Dracula. Even Dracula knows he's insane and that he's wrong. He says as much. Why do people still say that he was right? He just tried to commit some genocide/suicide hybrid.
Edit: Major props for the ending. It's always nice when Fact Fiend makes the summary of just be nice to people and not a dick.
Watching this a month late, and I was disappointed you didn't go further into "The Batman" (the Pattinson one) since this was literally the point of the entire movie. One of Riddler's goons literally said "I am vengeance" near the end of a movie about Batman finally coming out of his cave and learning what it's actually like on the ground, realizing the complicated situations that break down his view of crime and criminals, and LITERALLY NARRATES OUT LOUD "I have to be more, something for people to believe in" to break down this point of debate about Batman's ideology. They literally make it as explicit as possible that Riddler and his goons are all edgy school shooters sitting in an echo chamber, especially when Riddler had all of the pieces laid out to figure out Batman's secret identity, more information about the Wanye family than even Batman had, and he couldn't because he needs Batman to be a monolith, and he couldn't fathom Batman not being just like him.
I adore Rorschach in the MOVIE because he's never wrong, just overreactive sometimes and actually has a noble heart and straight head. I like Rorschach in the comics because he knows the justice system cant be entirely trusted, especially with Chomo's. HOWEVER he does go over the top with thieves and other minor criminals and I hate that. Hes an interesting character and has his moments in the comics but he's a man with his heart in the right place and his head is some where else entirely. In short, Rorschach has his moment but is NO WHERE near worthy of idolizing.
For some reason I'm suddenly reminded of all the discussions I've seen surrounding Fallout: New Vegas and more specifically Caesar's Legion and the argument that they're a good choice to side with and I'm just sitting here like... No????? They literally enslave people and burn entire towns to the ground how tf are they a good choice? I get there's a lot of moral ambiguity when it comes to FNV but I feel like the case of Caesar's Legion is pretty cut and dry.
People think the legion is a good option?
BeCaUsE tHe RoAdS aRe SaFe
@@curtismcpsycho8212 I envy you for not running into the Legion fanboys who argue Caesar was right unironically.
I've unfortunately run into them and like. I'd sooner trust ASHUR than the Legion, the Pitt Raiders are better than the Legion in that at least they're egalitarian, and that's not exactly a glowing endorsement here, "those guys won't force you to be broodmares".
I think you might be missing the fact that media is an art form and touches people differently. An artists intentions can be ignored by people who see another side to the art. A sculpture made to show the might of a king can be seen as insecurity by his subjects. Characters can be seen differently from the perspective of the reader vs the author who knows everything and is trying to spin a story a direction. Not saying it's not absurd to like psychopaths, but there are qualities and ideals that some of them hold that are inspiration to some.
Thank you for supporting trans people. As a trans person myself, it can feel like the world is turning against us, what with all the online vitriol and the bills being passed that are stripping my people of our rights. Sometimes, it's nice to be reminded that other people do care
I know this doesn't mean much or make up for the cis maniacs, but know that there are people out there who support you
@@henrybelman7424 Honestly, it does mean a lot. We're not strong enough to change the world alone. Having others at our back means so much. It means there will be people who will help us no matter how bad it gets
@henrybelman7424 You don't have to "make up for" other people, you shoukdn't take on yourself responsability for other people just because you're on a same community or group. You should support people because it's the right thing to do and because everyone deserves to be treated like human beings, don't feel like you have to do things because there's cis people out there who are terrible or to "prove we're not alll like that", youlnow what i mean?
@@MarcyTheKindaCoolWizard true and I do.
I do think its interesting that in Family Guy Stewie is presented as the Villain but in more recent seasons he serves mostly to just point out the messed up shit the rest of the characters do.
"Haha evil baby" was always funnier than "haha gay baby"
@@Mare_Man The world "funnier" implies that family guy was ever funny in the first place.
I remember when I started Breaking Bad and I was waiting for that moment Walter truly became the badass Heisenberg and it never came. I just saw him as that pathetic guy who was constantly out of his depth and I just couldn't understand why people thought he was so badass and idolised him. My old housemate who'd seen Breaking Bad several times hated Skylar, and again, I couldn't figure out why. Sure she isn't perfect and about the worst thing she does is cheat on Walter which is nothing compared to the shit Walter does. And do I have any sympathy for Walter after being cheated on? Nope. Not at all.
The characters people will idolise baffles me sometimes. Especially Walter White, Bojack Horseman, and Rick Sanchez. These characters are all assholes, and in Bojack and Rick's case, their heads are a literal hell. Both shows make it incredibly clear that you wouldn't want to be either of them despite their wealth and fantastical lifestyles. The gang in Always Sunny is another one that baffles me. They're hilarious but they are the worst people and you would never want to spend a minute in the same room as them.
I wouldn't call myself the most media literate person out there and there's plenty of stuff I'll miss, but considering I can at least understand the basic stuff, maybe I'm better than I think I am at it.
Do you go "wait, isn't it normal to understand this? Why don't they get it that these characters are of the "we love to hate/pity them, but we don't love them" variety..." often? Because if so welcome to the phenomenon of realizing that you undersell yourself and oversell others and aren't as awful as you thought.
I love when Karl satirically acts like he's on the side of assholes and then Brad just gets more mad at the viewpoint. God I love this channel.
I do love Cartman as a character. I think he can be highly entertaining but I do want him to fail with his bullshit. That´s why I love whenever someone gets the better of him at the end of an episode. Especially if it is someone like Butters or Kenny, who he treats even more like dirt than Kyle.
Kenny is actually my favourite but I love all the kid main and sidecharacters. I thought it was funny that Matt and Trey wanted to write out Kenny because they thought after endless deaths, that they couldn´t do anything with the character only to realize that they need him and even make him a compelling figure. Same with Butters. I am rambling......so, i get on with my point.
I cannot imagine anyone watching South Park not realizing it is satire. I find that hard to believe but there are worse things out there that are true, so I won´t debate it.
I had lots of discussions about Walter White with people. Not nessecarily about them idolizing him but making excuses for everything he does. I do do not feel a lot of pity for Walter because he never tried to really better himself and he is an ass from day one. Still a fascinating character.
I love Hannibal Lecter from the TV Series. It can be pretentious as fuck but it was an artful beautiful piece of media.
I can also like and sympathize with Bojack Horseman or Barry, it doesn´t excuse their behaviour and I love morally grey characters or even characters who definetly make the wrong descision even when presented with better options.
Also, concerning Barry....I want more NoHo Hank characters in TV. He was such a gem in this series.
"It's not green screen shenanigans" like you expect me to believe that Karl isn't some kind of beer opening/pouring/drinking AI that has gained sentience.
I'd like to add, as well, onto Karl's point of how its so similar to people who speak on a piece of media by interjecting with something unrelated, is that its not only that they don't want to be left out of a discussion they don't have comprehension of, but also a refusal to learn. To watch the media, to talk to the person, to gain experiences, truly makes the conversation worthwhile for everybody. Remember, guys: If you feel left out, learn the facts about the issues at hand, and form your own opinions. Listen to reason. Partake in socialization, to learn and grow as a person.
Some other great examples are Patrick Bateman, Billy Butcher (also Homelander, somehow), and basically any character from the Red Dead series.
"I miss when games weren't political" - cut to Sundowner saying literally anything he says in that game.
I dont care if something is political if it's well made
@@RandomName893 "well made" being subtle and not going batman on you with its political message.
@@curtismcpsycho8212 Well made being well-written so that instead of choking you're eagerly opening your mouth for the next piece to be stuffed in there.
I've yet to hear people complain that Astro Boy dropping anvils about robot rights on their head "isn't subtle enough", because the writing is good.
I've also yet to hear Cyborg 009 fans complain the anvils about an underground arms dealer engineering their own wars and causing death and misery for profit being evil, too.
I recall David Fincher saying in an interview that if his daughter ever brought home a boy who said Fight Club was his favourite movie, he’d forbid her from seeing that boy ever again.