Another naval-focused episode and this one is exciting: Nazi pirates. On a meta-level, this episode drives home just how huge this war is. Imagine being able to survey the whole globe in November 1941 as if it was on Google Earth. You zoom onto the Soviet Union where the Nazi Blitzkrieg is burning through fields and towns, you zoom onto Japanese naval bases where preparations are being made for Pearl Harbor, you zoom onto the tank-filled deserts of North Africa; and then you zoom onto an ocean somewhere and see a lone merchant raider stalking the oceans, hunting its prey. It's on a smaller scale but that raider is part of the war just like the drive on Moscow is. All just one big war, across the whole globe. Please don't forget to read our rules of conduct before commenting: community.timeghost.tv/t/rules-of-conduct/4518
Actually you *can* zoom in on Tobruk using 'Zoom Earth' and see the fading outlines of Tobruk's fortification ring. Not easy, but doable. A lot of stuff in N. Africa is still there, such as the outline of fortifications at Bir Hachiem too, although that is not easy to locate. Cheers!
In the German literature of the second world war I have only seen them referred to as Hilfskreuzer. Though I have not researched them in WWI so perhaps they had a different name earlier?
Great video. I wonder if you have or could eventually take all your source information used in making all your many well formed video's to upload images digitally to a separate website. I think it would be wonderful If you could catalogue your sources so people can look more in depth, if they choose to do so. You lot have probably put more work into the Great war & ww2 topic then any channel I can think off. Kind regards to you & your team!
@@QuizmasterLaw the Term was HSK Sometimes called as Handels Stör Kreuzer Hilfs Schiff or Hilfskreuzer beside the Term, their Tasks were the Same as in WWI
Early in my career as a Merchant Marine Officer, I had the the privilege of working with a Chief Engineer who’d as a young man been captured by the German Raider “Michel”, in the South Atlantic when the Texaco Tanker “Connecticut” was overtaken and sunk. He spoke well of his period of German captivity on the Raider, however when the Germans area of operations changed to the Pacific the American seaman prisoners were transferred to the Japanese, he spent the rest of the war as a slave laborer in the mines of Japan.
@@Darwinek The "Pirates" did not think anything about transferring all people they captured to the Japanese . The Thor transferred men, women and children from the Nankin to the Japanese who imprisoned them, the Hague Convention made the welfare of prisoners there responsibility.
There is very eerie newsreel footage of the entire crew in dress uniform marching through Sydney just before it sailed for its fateful meeting with Kormoran. Not one of them was ever seen again.
The Kormoran had a preheater for the fuel in the funnel, a shell from HMAS Sydney X turret hit this and burning oil flowed into the Engine room setting it on fire. The loss of the Sydney with all hands was a mystery and the location of both wrecks in March 2008 by David Mearns helped tell end the mystery.
Its Ironic that of all the ships in the Kriegsmarine surface fleet, the ones that consistently caused the most problems for the allies were the raiders. Not the battleships, not the cruisers, but a handful of armed merchant ships.
Could have to do with the fact that germans are most effective whenever they are readily trained and prepared but severely underestimated. The big heavy battleships were known and appropriate measures were taken by the allies. Other examples: Eben Emael, the tanks going through the ardennes when they attacked france, the small detachment of mountain troops in Narvik...
@@AndreLuis-gw5ox True of course, but his comment was about the Kriegsmarine. To the sunTsu part: what i meant was more underestimation of capabilities than unexpectednes in a geographical sense. While it still was a big success factor for the raiders in question here, if they would not have been trained and equipped as well, the ships they tried to attack would have "laughed them off". The allies knew about the use of german commerce raiders and their effectiveness in WW1, but it seems they underestimated them during WW2 (again?).
@@nirfz yeah, thats the point: perfoming well when you are well prepared and the enemy doesnt expect you to be is the rule, and the reason behind many if not most military successes. Its not particular of the germans, not even in this war
@@AndreLuis-gw5ox I'd settle for "many". As there are also lot's of accounts in history where no underestimation took place and "the obvious favorite" won the fight.
Drachinifel has 2 great videos about the Kormoran and other axis raiders. One of them pretty much entirely about it's fight with the HMS Sydney. I highly recommend the channel to anyone interested in naval history.
A sad footnote to the Kormoran story. The crews captured in the Indian ocean were transferred to the supply ship Kulmerland and then to the Spreewald, a blockade runner bringing cargo to Germany from Japan. Spreewald was sunk not far from France and 72 of the prisoners died. The true irony was that Spreewald was sunk by U333 commanded by Peter Cremer.
Fighting a modern cruiser with a refitted merchant vessel is really brave. I almost can't believe they didn't just surrender to chill in Australia for the rest of the war. The fact that they actually sunk the damm thing is insane.
Sydney's fault for coming in too close. Doctrine was never to approach an unknown target but stand off and shell their adversary if they didn't respond or correctly answer their questions
I just learn of the HMS Sydney recently and I thought I heard just about every crazy story there was from WWII. There seems to be Sydney truthers who don’t believe the raider sank it but if the HMS Hood showed all it takes is a well placed shot and you’re next designation is the ocean floor.
A side note about the HMAS Sydney, mentioned in this special. When it went down off the coast of Western Australia, it went down with all hands and almost no evidence of the wreck and its dead was found. The Kormoran, however, did have survivors - nearly 400 Germans, picked up by Australian forces, but its wreck too was lost. That is, until 2008, when the wreck of the Kormoran and HMAS Sydney was finally discovered, off the coast of Shark Bay. It was something of a media frenzy in Australia when it was rediscovered. Western Australia, where i grew up, had treated the battle and wreck as something of a legendary tale in our history - that time some Germans, disguised as Dutch Merchants, sank an Australian Warship just off our coast. There is now a very nice memorial in Geraldton, where 645 Steel Seagulls form a dome, to represent the dead of the HMAS Sydney.
7:59 the Yugoslav merchantman was the Velebit, a 4200t steamer. She was attacked in nighttime and set ablaze with Kormoran leaving. A group of mariners managed to launch a lifeboat but was later picked up and captured by the Kormoran. The rest of the crew that survived the shelling stayed on the ship that remained afloat drifting for days and actually shoaled on an island where they disembarked and were rescued.
You guys did an amazing job with your Instagram coverage of the Sydney-Kormoran battle. It really helped maintain the memory of such a tragic moment in Australia's war history. People struggled to understand how such a merchant ship could sink a warship - They now have an answer.
HMAS Sydney was nicknamed the Lucky Ship as it engaged in multiple engagements without a single casualty. Its sinking by Kormoran was the first time it had taken casualties and in that case it was lost with all hands. I believe that HMAS Sydney was the largest Allied warship lost with all hands during WW2.
Earlier this week I was actually wondering what kind of role the German merchant raiders played in the war, and thought about sending a question about them on Time Ghost site. So this special had a perfect timing. Merchant raiding on both wars is a topic I find really interesting, it's not something that gets a lot of attention but as was said in this video, it did play a notable role in strategic sense. And the impression I've gotten is that generally speaking the victims were treated with respect. The specials Indy did back on the Great War channel about Emden and Möwe are still some of my favorites.
WWI light cruiser Emden was a raider that brought the bulk of Allied cargo shipping in the Bay of Bengal and Indian Ocean to a virtual halt. The Novel "First Victory" is an excellent read about Australia hunting her.
Huge respect to the German crew for having the courage to take on a far superior warship, and huge respect to the Australian crew who fought back valiantly on their own after Sydney's command structure was lost early in the battle. 80 of Kormoran's crew remained at sea and Sydney sank with all of her 640 crew members. RIP
@@badbotchdown9845 Concealing your identity was a legal military ruse, and Kormoran followed military law by running up her war flag before opening fire. It was also her only viable option, giving her inferior speed and fire control. This conduct could also backfire on the raider. In May 1941, the raider Pinguin was sunk by the heavy cruiser HMS Cornwall, killing 550 German sailors and British prisoners.
@@badbotchdown9845 Using false flags was common and legal as long as the ship entered combat after showing its true colors. The famed British captain Thomas Cochrane used this ruse quite a lot, for example, over a hundred years earlier.
@@badbotchdown9845 When you have no clue of what you’re talking about, it’s better to keep your mouth shut. Otherwise you take the risk of looking like a complete idiot, like you just did.
Thomas: That's got to be the best pirate I've ever seen. Crewmate: captain what are you talking about they are speaking German this isn't Jack S- Thomas: Did I stutter
It is interesting to me that even in the 20th Century commerce raiding is still quite successful, it would be interesting to know if any navy has currently any plans to do the same in case of a major war
I'm just guessing here, but widespread advanced radar and satellites would make this pretty much impossible. Once you raid one ship your disguise would probably be lost and you'd be hunted down. Also, with modern submarine technology (that every major and even many minor powers have access to) surface raiders are somewhat obsolete.
The "navy" of Somalia is doing it even in something like peace time. Then there are actions against Iran's shipping like the oil tanker that was raided at Gibraltar two years ago. In cases like this, the wording depends on the side of the conflict but it looked like an act of piracy.
Probably the chinese Navy. Or more precisely, their "fishing militia", armed vessels posing as a fisher fleet and used until now to intimidate and ram adversary coast guard ships out of contested areas. It wouldn't be surprising to see these "irregulars" repurposed to hunt, harass and/or seize foreign merchant vessels. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Armed_Forces_Maritime_Militia
Raiding for purposes of capturing the cargo, probably not. But definitely hitting freighters to disrupt economic supply lines. If Iran and Saudi Arabia went to war, for example, a lot of oil tankers would go boom very quickly.
Two sailors long on watch look to an oncoming vessel. U boat? Asks the first. No, says the second, Q ship? No says the first. Just then the cook comes up from the galley with hot food saying: Pie Rat
One more tidbit of information: one of the auxiliary cruisers, the "Stier", was sunk by the US Liberty ship "Stephen Hopkins". Though only armed with a single 4 inch gun and two 37mm guns the Liberty ship decided to fight it out when ordered to stop. The fight was short and 45 of the crew of 60 on the "Stephen Hopkins" were killed - but the few hits they had scored were enough to wreck the engines of the "Stier", so its crew had to scuttle her.
I read about this encounter in a German book, and it was claimed that Stephen Hopkins was actually armed with several 4 inch guns. If so, that would be highly atypical for a Liberty ship. I wonder what really happened that day.
The Royal Dutch Tanker MV Ondina was attacked by two Japanese Merchant cruisers. With a single 4 inch gun she sank one but had to abandon ship . The crew later re boarded and sailed the ship to Fremantle
I was hoping someone would put up this comment. This is a great channel but this is pretty big faux pas, mistaking a ship for a different class of ship entirely. The Sydney was a LIGHT CRUISER by all definitions. I am not sure where this came from in their notes but its entirely wrong.
The "pirate" ships of the Kriegsmarine were a Brilliant ploy and one wich Churchill was quite vociferous over them and although in a Grey area regarding rules of warfare a successful ploy until discovery!
Is there an equivalent of the hague cnvention for naval warfare? (The hague conventions of 1899 and 1907 only cover warfare on land.) Not as easily visible in the english name, but the german name is "Landkriegsordnung" = "land warfare order", in dutch it's "Landoorlogreglement" and in french: Règlement concernant les lois et coutumes de la guerre sur terre (guerre is war, and terre is land)
Three months after HMAS Sydney was sunk a life-raft with single crewman's body washed up on Christmas Island. Until last month he was the 'unknown sailor', representing the 645 men who were lost. Last month he was finally identified via DNA analysis as 21 yr old Able Seaman Thomas Welsby Clark.
I remember the Great War video on the SMS Seeadler, one of the most exciting stories told on that channel. Interesting to see the Germans were successfully using the same sort of commerce raiding tactics in WW2.
It would be cool to hear about the US Atlantic Fleet and what it has been doing so far in WW2. The US Pacific Fleet rightfully always gets the majority of the glory in WW2 but the US Atlantic Fleet was in the early parts of the war a larger fleet then the US Pacific Fleet was. The US Atlantic Fleet did also get into combat against Axis ships (normally submarines) and it's primary job was defending convoys moving across the Atlantic.
Other raiders operated in the Pacific sinking ships off Australia and NZ and laying mines. They also destroyed the fertiliser facilities on Nauru twice.
I think the Merchant Raiders are among the most intriguing part of naval ww2 history. I like the kinda rag tag independent vessel with guns from others places and modifications
Light cruisers simply cannot take torpedo hits and 6 inch gunfire. Their advantage is speed and superior fire control, but closing to within a mile did negate both these things and made the fight pretty even. As Kormoran had the opening volley, her chances were actually pretty good.
Even a speedboat loaded with explosives could sink a cruiser if it could get close enough. Light cruisers weren't built to take heavy punishment, but rather to go fast. Their 6" main guns could outrange the standard 4" or 5" guns on destroyers. The intended role for cruisers in the pre-aircraft carrier era was to protect battleships from torpedo-armed destroyers, by being fast enough to engage them before they could get within torpedo range of the main battle line. Once WWII started then everything changed. Lots of ships ended up getting used in roles they weren't designed for. Battleships, for example, didn't really get to fulfil their Mahanian role of slugging it out in a decisive battle for control of the ocean, but instead became mostly useful for shore bombardment and antiaircraft protection for aircraft carriers. USS Indianapolis (CA-35) was another example of a cruiser (in her case, a heavy cruiser) that sank rapidly with what turned out to be heavy loss of life. Two hits with Type 95 torpedoes from the Japanese submarine I-58 sank Indianpolis in just 12 minutes. A sequence of foul-ups then led to the survivors drifting forgotten at sea for four days before a patrol aircraft spotted them unexpectedly, and only 316 of the 1,195 crewmen aboard ultimately survived - the largest loss of life from a single ship in US Navy history. I'm sure Indy will get to this tragic story when the series gets up to 1945. (Sorry about the spoiler...) The main takeaway from these sad events seems to be: never send out a cruiser unescorted. And maybe consider using your floatplanes more. Most WWII cruisers carried floatplanes for reconnaissance and spotting. If your floatplanes are aloft when the cruiser blows up, maybe one of them can get a distress call out.
@@danielmocsny5066 That was interesting information! I have heard about this incident before and it could have meen Mark Felton that made a video about it. The "problem" is that we just read and hear about the magestic battleships and carriers, but the cruisers and destroyers wrecked in a battle are just numbers that almost seem unimportant.
@@Philip271828 I'm operating on the guess that the ships involved were only aware of Earth's moon, and not Endor. I could be wrong about that, though ;)
what was their courage...? They just robbed and killed. Would You like to be one of the victims (probably dying in open waters killed by sharks)? They luckily survived, the marines from HMAS Sydney did not.... They served in criminal organisation under the murderer (Hitler)... They used tricky methods for what could be shot...The could have escaped from Germany or try to avoid consription - they didn't... Just to bring death to the world...
With assistance from the Soviet icebreaker Lenin, she passed through the several Arctic Ocean passages in August. She also later received help from the Joseph Stalin. In early September, the Komet crossed the Bering Strait into the Pacific Ocean. The passage was an amazing achievement and would have ended in disaster had it not been for the Soviets, whose help had come at a price: 950,000 Reichsmarks. For many of the German crew, this was their first experience in Arctic waters. Wackipedia
The memorial at Geraldton in Western Australia puts perspective on the HMAS Sydney tragedy, 1 metal seagull for every sailor who died aboard, only one body was recovered and was identified in 2021. The nerve of the Kormoran's crew is astonishing, they let Sydney approach VERY close before opening fire, The Kormoran Lifeboat is still at Carnarvon in WA.
The photo of the ship you had that rescued Kormoran survivors was the AHS (Australian Hospital Ship) Centaur before it became a hospital ship. It was later torpedoed without warning off the coast of Brisbane by the Japanese submarine I-177 while wearing it's red cross markings and fully under lights in it's role as a hospital ship. Only 64 of the 332 crew and hospital staff survived.
As you say, German raiders all maintained false identities, In Kormoran"s case it was that of a Dutch merchantman when HMAS Sydney encountered her. Though HMAS Sydney was a battle hardened warship, It sank an Italian cruiser in the Mediterranean, its captain, Burnett, certainly was NOT. He got closer and closer to Kormoran without getting the secret code for the Dutch merchantman the ship claimed to be until Sydney was merrily sailing alongside Kormoran a thousand or so meters away. That is point blank range and it took away all of the considerable advantages Sydney possessed. And when Kormoran revealed its true colours this turned into a very one sided fight, with Sydney's bridge, front guns and gunnery control wiped out almost immediately. Very few of Kormoran's crew died in the actual battle while Sydney's crew of over 600 perished to a man. Burnett stuffed up big time and it cost the lives of his entire crew.
@@pmvolsing6930 Yes indeed, it is a great irony that Sydney's First World War predecessor should sink Germany's most successful raider, the Emden, which had sunk 28 steamers and a British and French warship to boot. The Emden had a fake 4th funnel to look like a British warship and was engaged in destroying the British telegram and radio station on the Cocos Islands. The Sydney happened to be passing nearby on convoy duty when it picked up a distress signal from the station, diverted and then blew the crap out of the Emden. It was faster and had bigger guns. And it followed that up by chasing down the Emden's tender which was scuttled. It returned to tend to the wounded from the Emden. Boy, what a contrast. Its mast has been erected on Sydney Harbor as a memorial.
You really should do a mini on this battle. One of the most stirring naval battles of the war was the Liberty ship Stephen Hopkins vs. the German Raider Stier. The Hopkins would eventually sink, as would be expected as the Stier had a massive armament superiority, but the Liberty ship's 4 inch gun crew although pretty much eventually wiped out during it's heroic resistance, put enough holes in the Stier that the Germans were forced to scuttle the vessel, a major victory for the Merchant Mariners but which has gotten little publicity because it wasn't an official US Navy victory. The US Merchant Marine was significantly slighted after the war after they had done so much for the war effort.
Can we please get a chronological (with specials) playlist Indy? Like with your last project? I loved listening to the old one as a “podcast” if you will
The Royal Navy wrote an instruction manual for merchant marine captains. It had the latest information what the captain should do in certain situations. Under the heading "What to do if the Cormorant comes along side you and gives you specify demands', it says 'Don't Arrrgue'
Thank you World War Two for shining a light on the story of HMAS Sydney. A fine and often successful ship, shame to have lost the Sydney to Kormoran in this way. r. i. p.
Most of the crew of the Kormoran was lucky to have survived the war in POW camps. Their colleagues in the Bismarck, Scharnhorst and Tirpitz would not be so lucky.
We've got all these games that allow you to play the role of a U-boat. Isn't it about time someone did a game where you played as a disguised surface raider?
Sydney was lost with all hands. Kormoran eventually sank and at least part of the crew was captured by Australian ships. Kormoran crew members were (I think) the only German military held in Australian POW camps. Some of the Kormoran crew escaped from the Aussie POW camp, but were recaptured. How they hoped to escape from Australia I do not know.
SS Stephen Hopkins was the first (and only) US merchant ship to sink a German surface combatant during the war. Ordered to stop, Stephen Hopkins refused to surrender, so the heavily armed German commerce raider Stier and her tender Tannenfels with one machine gun opened fire. Although greatly outgunned, the crew of Stephen Hopkins fought back, replacing the Armed Guard crew of the ship's lone 4-inch (100 mm) gun with volunteers as they fell. The fight was short, and both ships were wrecks. Wackipedia
Yeah because state licensed privateering is such an unusual thing in human history.... The fact it mainly hit the british is a bit of irony in itself considering Britain beeing the most famous privateering nation in history.
Sydney got off more than one salvo! It was a torpedo from Kormaron about a minute into the firefight that mortality wounded her. Also, Kormaron's 20mm & anti than guns cut down many of Sydney's crew as they were so close, (Sydney came in far too close & much closer than operating procedures called for), & many of Sydney's crew were on deck & not at battle station's as they should have been.
It's strangely admirable that amidst a conflict like the Second World War, that the raiders would actually go through the formality of raising the proper flag before attacking.
I could be wrong but I think the HMAS Sydney was the largest ship of WW2 that got sunk with all hands. Every other bigger ship that got sunk had at least a few survivors.
![Polikarpov I-16 "Ishak" | The Revolutionary Russian Fighter [Aircraft Overview #12]](/img/1.gif)
Another naval-focused episode and this one is exciting: Nazi pirates. On a meta-level, this episode drives home just how huge this war is. Imagine being able to survey the whole globe in November 1941 as if it was on Google Earth. You zoom onto the Soviet Union where the Nazi Blitzkrieg is burning through fields and towns, you zoom onto Japanese naval bases where preparations are being made for Pearl Harbor, you zoom onto the tank-filled deserts of North Africa; and then you zoom onto an ocean somewhere and see a lone merchant raider stalking the oceans, hunting its prey. It's on a smaller scale but that raider is part of the war just like the drive on Moscow is. All just one big war, across the whole globe.
Please don't forget to read our rules of conduct before commenting: community.timeghost.tv/t/rules-of-conduct/4518
Just a minor correction, Sydney is a light cruiser, not an armored cruiser. A small but important term with regards to her final engagement.
Actually you *can* zoom in on Tobruk using 'Zoom Earth' and see the fading outlines of Tobruk's fortification ring. Not easy, but doable. A lot of stuff in N. Africa is still there, such as the outline of fortifications at Bir Hachiem too, although that is not easy to locate. Cheers!
In the German literature of the second world war I have only seen them referred to as Hilfskreuzer.
Though I have not researched them in WWI so perhaps they had a different name earlier?
Great video. I wonder if you have or could eventually take all your source information used in making all your many well formed video's to upload images digitally to a separate website. I think it would be wonderful If you could catalogue your sources so people can look more in depth, if they choose to do so.
You lot have probably put more work into the Great war & ww2 topic then any channel I can think off.
Kind regards to you & your team!
@@QuizmasterLaw the Term was HSK Sometimes called as Handels Stör Kreuzer Hilfs Schiff or Hilfskreuzer beside the Term, their Tasks were the Same as in WWI
Britain: You cant steal and plunder our merchant fleet!!
Germans: *Yarr har fiddle dee dee! Being a pirate is alright to be!*
Yeah the germany navy still got assfucked by the royal navy 99% of the time
@@beeg8615 facts
@@beeg8615 Not the merchant raiders
@@theholyinquisition389 non of the merchant traders weren’t caught, in battle they took out an Australian cruiser
Do what you want cause a pirate is free we are the Kriegsmarine!
Early in my career as a Merchant Marine Officer, I had the the privilege of working with a Chief Engineer who’d as a young man been captured by the German Raider “Michel”, in the South Atlantic when the Texaco Tanker “Connecticut” was overtaken and sunk. He spoke well of his period of German captivity on the Raider, however when the Germans area of operations changed to the Pacific the American seaman prisoners were transferred to the Japanese, he spent the rest of the war as a slave laborer in the mines of Japan.
Whatever you do, avoid being caught by the Japanese at all costs.
@@Darwinek The "Pirates" did not think anything about transferring all people they captured to the Japanese . The Thor transferred men, women and children from the Nankin to the Japanese who imprisoned them, the Hague Convention made the welfare of prisoners there responsibility.
And this is why i read the comments. Thank you!
Detremers took care of his prisoners quite well
These guys have got to be the best pirates i’ve ever seen…..
So it would seem...
They almost captured Nauru, they devastated Australia and New Zealand
@@steffanyschwartz7801 They annoyed us, I wouldn't say they devastated us...
@@zekeboy24 Most of Australia is devastated by default anyway.
*plays vintage submarine stock footage*
The History Guy asked very appropriately “Don’t all good yarns involve pirates?”
My great great uncle served on the Sydney. I grew up in Western Australia and when they found her it was like gold was found
Thank you for sharing that with us. May he and the crew rest in peace
There is very eerie newsreel footage of the entire crew in dress uniform marching through Sydney just before it sailed for its fateful meeting with Kormoran. Not one of them was ever seen again.
@@Mark-Ozi actually there was a survivor Thomas websly Clark but he died from dehydration
You gotta admit...German engineering meets the pirate life.
What a cool story.
hm,......Prinz Eugen is due a maker over,
The Kormoran had a preheater for the fuel in the funnel, a shell from HMAS Sydney X turret hit this and burning oil flowed into the Engine room setting it on fire. The loss of the Sydney with all hands was a mystery and the location of both wrecks in March 2008 by David Mearns helped tell end the mystery.
Its Ironic that of all the ships in the Kriegsmarine surface fleet, the ones that consistently caused the most problems for the allies were the raiders. Not the battleships, not the cruisers, but a handful of armed merchant ships.
Could have to do with the fact that germans are most effective whenever they are readily trained and prepared but severely underestimated.
The big heavy battleships were known and appropriate measures were taken by the allies.
Other examples: Eben Emael, the tanks going through the ardennes when they attacked france, the small detachment of mountain troops in Narvik...
@@nirfz you could say that about a lot of militaries, not just the germans. Attacking where you are unexpected is even advised by Sun Tzu
@@AndreLuis-gw5ox True of course, but his comment was about the Kriegsmarine.
To the sunTsu part: what i meant was more underestimation of capabilities than unexpectednes in a geographical sense. While it still was a big success factor for the raiders in question here, if they would not have been trained and equipped as well, the ships they tried to attack would have "laughed them off".
The allies knew about the use of german commerce raiders and their effectiveness in WW1, but it seems they underestimated them during WW2 (again?).
@@nirfz yeah, thats the point: perfoming well when you are well prepared and the enemy doesnt expect you to be is the rule, and the reason behind many if not most military successes. Its not particular of the germans, not even in this war
@@AndreLuis-gw5ox I'd settle for "many". As there are also lot's of accounts in history where no underestimation took place and "the obvious favorite" won the fight.
Drachinifel has 2 great videos about the Kormoran and other axis raiders. One of them pretty much entirely about it's fight with the HMS Sydney.
I highly recommend the channel to anyone interested in naval history.
He also guested on Potential History on the conspiracy theories on the sinking of HMAS Sydney.
Agreed, Drach has the best naval channel out there
Yes but only if you have lots of time on your hands
@@CABOOSEBOB 6h Drydock episodes are kind of heavy to handle.
@@Ulrich.Bierwisch he time stamps all questions so you can cherry pick those that are of interest.
As History Guy would say.
"Don't all good stories involve pirates?"
“Yaarr they do!”
And NO kissing.
@@AlwaysPossible100 i always thought Indy was from Sweden
@@AlwaysPossible100 i see, thanks for pointing this out.
A sad footnote to the Kormoran story. The crews captured in the Indian ocean were transferred to the supply ship Kulmerland and then to the Spreewald, a blockade runner bringing cargo to Germany from Japan. Spreewald was sunk not far from France and 72 of the prisoners died. The true irony was that Spreewald was sunk by U333 commanded by Peter Cremer.
Thank you for the information.
The loss of Sydney was a national disaster and is to this day remembered every year in the news and media. LEST WE FORGET.
Fighting a modern cruiser with a refitted merchant vessel is really brave. I almost can't believe they didn't just surrender to chill in Australia for the rest of the war.
The fact that they actually sunk the damm thing is insane.
Yeah, carrying 4 torpedo tubes was a good choice.
Sydney's fault for coming in too close. Doctrine was never to approach an unknown target but stand off and shell their adversary if they didn't respond or correctly answer their questions
I just learn of the HMS Sydney recently and I thought I heard just about every crazy story there was from WWII. There seems to be Sydney truthers who don’t believe the raider sank it but if the HMS Hood showed all it takes is a well placed shot and you’re next designation is the ocean floor.
They decided it’s safer to face cruiser guns than killer spiders
Maybe that bravery compensates for the cowardice of attacking and killing unarmed merchantmen
A side note about the HMAS Sydney, mentioned in this special. When it went down off the coast of Western Australia, it went down with all hands and almost no evidence of the wreck and its dead was found. The Kormoran, however, did have survivors - nearly 400 Germans, picked up by Australian forces, but its wreck too was lost.
That is, until 2008, when the wreck of the Kormoran and HMAS Sydney was finally discovered, off the coast of Shark Bay.
It was something of a media frenzy in Australia when it was rediscovered. Western Australia, where i grew up, had treated the battle and wreck as something of a legendary tale in our history - that time some Germans, disguised as Dutch Merchants, sank an Australian Warship just off our coast.
There is now a very nice memorial in Geraldton, where 645 Steel Seagulls form a dome, to represent the dead of the HMAS Sydney.
Shiver me timbers! This is probably one video that I wasn't expecting...
😆
7:59 the Yugoslav merchantman was the Velebit, a 4200t steamer. She was attacked in nighttime and set ablaze with Kormoran leaving. A group of mariners managed to launch a lifeboat but was later picked up and captured by the Kormoran. The rest of the crew that survived the shelling stayed on the ship that remained afloat drifting for days and actually shoaled on an island where they disembarked and were rescued.
You guys did an amazing job with your Instagram coverage of the Sydney-Kormoran battle. It really helped maintain the memory of such a tragic moment in Australia's war history. People struggled to understand how such a merchant ship could sink a warship - They now have an answer.
HMAS Sydney was nicknamed the Lucky Ship as it engaged in multiple engagements without a single casualty. Its sinking by Kormoran was the first time it had taken casualties and in that case it was lost with all hands. I believe that HMAS Sydney was the largest Allied warship lost with all hands during WW2.
Damn, a merchant raider, basically a destroyer escort, taking on and sinking a HMS cruiser. Now that takes balls!
Unlike a DE, auxiliary cruisers were unarmored, slow, and lacking in fire control. All the more impressive!
2 of historys greatest villain archetypes combined into one!
Drachinifel has an excellent video covering these improvised merchant raiders.
Link?
@@colmhain ruclips.net/video/B-ZYsQx_sr8/видео.html
@@janiceduke1205 Why, thank you!
Earlier this week I was actually wondering what kind of role the German merchant raiders played in the war, and thought about sending a question about them on Time Ghost site. So this special had a perfect timing.
Merchant raiding on both wars is a topic I find really interesting, it's not something that gets a lot of attention but as was said in this video, it did play a notable role in strategic sense. And the impression I've gotten is that generally speaking the victims were treated with respect.
The specials Indy did back on the Great War channel about Emden and Möwe are still some of my favorites.
Glad you learned something new!
WWI light cruiser Emden was a raider that brought the bulk of Allied cargo shipping in the Bay of Bengal and Indian Ocean to a virtual halt. The Novel "First Victory" is an excellent read about Australia hunting her.
Huge respect to the German crew for having the courage to take on a far superior warship, and huge respect to the Australian crew who fought back valiantly on their own after Sydney's command structure was lost early in the battle. 80 of Kormoran's crew remained at sea and Sydney sank with all of her 640 crew members. RIP
Yeah super open fire by treason what great guys they were
@@badbotchdown9845 Concealing your identity was a legal military ruse, and Kormoran followed military law by running up her war flag before opening fire. It was also her only viable option, giving her inferior speed and fire control.
This conduct could also backfire on the raider. In May 1941, the raider Pinguin was sunk by the heavy cruiser HMS Cornwall, killing 550 German sailors and British prisoners.
@@badbotchdown9845 Using false flags was common and legal as long as the ship entered combat after showing its true colors. The famed British captain Thomas Cochrane used this ruse quite a lot, for example, over a hundred years earlier.
@@badbotchdown9845 When you have no clue of what you’re talking about, it’s better to keep your mouth shut. Otherwise you take the risk of looking like a complete idiot, like you just did.
@@TheAtmosfear7 well said, sir! 😅
There is an old counter game called "Royal Navy" and the Cormorant vs the Sidney is the first scenario. It is REALLY hard for the Cormorant to win.
HMAS Sydney lost with all hand. 645 sailors.
At 8:36 that is not the HMAS Sydney, but an unmodified Leander class cruiser.
Thomas: That's got to be the best pirate I've ever seen.
Crewmate: captain what are you talking about they are speaking German this isn't Jack S-
Thomas: Did I stutter
"Remember ze day you almost captured Johann Spatz!"
Whats next? Nazi pirate vampires? Wait, don't answer that.
Total War: Warhammer 2 got you covered.
I mean, Romania was their ally.
@@quedtion_marks_kirby_modding WOW, THERE, its not like we had a choice,
@@alexandarvoncarsteinzarovi3723 The iron guard were pretty clerly nazis. They were Romanians, so they they are vampires.
Good job. As a former Navy man, I really liked this one.
Thanks!
It is interesting to me that even in the 20th Century commerce raiding is still quite successful, it would be interesting to know if any navy has currently any plans to do the same in case of a major war
I'm just guessing here, but widespread advanced radar and satellites would make this pretty much impossible. Once you raid one ship your disguise would probably be lost and you'd be hunted down.
Also, with modern submarine technology (that every major and even many minor powers have access to) surface raiders are somewhat obsolete.
The "navy" of Somalia is doing it even in something like peace time.
Then there are actions against Iran's shipping like the oil tanker that was raided at Gibraltar two years ago. In cases like this, the wording depends on the side of the conflict but it looked like an act of piracy.
@@Icetubexd Submarines could probably still get away without too much trouble. Theres some really quiet ones and the ocean is deep
Probably the chinese Navy. Or more precisely, their "fishing militia", armed vessels posing as a fisher fleet and used until now to intimidate and ram adversary coast guard ships out of contested areas.
It wouldn't be surprising to see these "irregulars" repurposed to hunt, harass and/or seize foreign merchant vessels.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Armed_Forces_Maritime_Militia
Raiding for purposes of capturing the cargo, probably not. But definitely hitting freighters to disrupt economic supply lines. If Iran and Saudi Arabia went to war, for example, a lot of oil tankers would go boom very quickly.
Two sailors long on watch look to an oncoming vessel.
U boat? Asks the first.
No, says the second, Q ship?
No says the first.
Just then the cook comes up from the galley with hot food saying: Pie Rat
One more tidbit of information: one of the auxiliary cruisers, the "Stier", was sunk by the US Liberty ship "Stephen Hopkins". Though only armed with a single 4 inch gun and two 37mm guns the Liberty ship decided to fight it out when ordered to stop. The fight was short and 45 of the crew of 60 on the "Stephen Hopkins" were killed - but the few hits they had scored were enough to wreck the engines of the "Stier", so its crew had to scuttle her.
I read about this encounter in a German book, and it was claimed that Stephen Hopkins was actually armed with several 4 inch guns. If so, that would be highly atypical for a Liberty ship. I wonder what really happened that day.
The Royal Dutch Tanker MV Ondina was attacked by two Japanese Merchant cruisers. With a single 4 inch gun she sank one but had to abandon ship . The crew later re boarded and sailed the ship to Fremantle
@Gildor Thank you for sharing this
Only US vs German surface naval battle in history
Indy you and your friends make the coolest episodes about WW2. Keep at it bro 🔥🔥🔥🔥
Thank you!
Love the many unique true stories of WW2. TY
Thanks for watching, we're glad you enjoy our content!
HMAS Sydney was a "light cruiser" in the then current parlance. "Armo(u)red cruiser" as a class name went out of fashion sometime before WW1...
I was hoping someone would put up this comment. This is a great channel but this is pretty big faux pas, mistaking a ship for a different class of ship entirely. The Sydney was a LIGHT CRUISER by all definitions. I am not sure where this came from in their notes but its entirely wrong.
Yep Leander class
Great-grandad was an electrical artificer on the HMAS Sydney when it was sunk. Great video.
Thanks for watching, SMJ. May your Great-grandad rest in peace.
Thank you for a beautiful presentation. You are really a master and listening to you makes me feel as if I was there almost. Keep up the good work.
Thank you!
"Are you pirates?"
"YARR - I mean Ja"
Love this channel
Thank you for your support!!
The "pirate" ships of the Kriegsmarine were a Brilliant ploy and one wich Churchill was quite vociferous over them and although in a Grey area regarding rules of warfare a successful ploy until discovery!
Grey area in WWII is quite nice, better to be tricked by Kriegsmarine than by SS
I can see Churchill being upset by pirates that were not "his majesty" pirates. How dare them? Use our methods against us? 😁 Outrageous!
it makes me laugh so hard when the British cry around because their enemies don't play fair :)
Is there an equivalent of the hague cnvention for naval warfare? (The hague conventions of 1899 and 1907 only cover warfare on land.) Not as easily visible in the english name, but the german name is "Landkriegsordnung" = "land warfare order", in dutch it's "Landoorlogreglement" and in french: Règlement concernant les lois et coutumes de la guerre sur terre (guerre is war, and terre is land)
British tasting their own medicine: Piracy
Yeah let's forget how they purged pirates on sight
Or the "hero" John Paul Jones who is definitely NOT a pirate
@@vladimirvonmongol6368 I mean they employed them to commit piracy against the spanish lol
@@codeporsche4651 so did the Spanish the other way around
@@codeporsche4651 If it's against the Spanish, then it doesn't really count as Piracy right?
There is a great war movie about the Raider Atlantis called 'Under Ten Flags'(1960)
Three months after HMAS Sydney was sunk a life-raft with single crewman's body washed up on Christmas Island. Until last month he was the 'unknown sailor', representing the 645 men who were lost. Last month he was finally identified via DNA analysis as 21 yr old Able Seaman Thomas Welsby Clark.
At 8:40, that's not the Sydney, it's an Italian Soldati class destroyer
I went to the HMAS Sydney II memorial when I was in Geraldton many years ago. Its the last city she would have seen before being sunk.
I remember the Great War video on the SMS Seeadler, one of the most exciting stories told on that channel. Interesting to see the Germans were successfully using the same sort of commerce raiding tactics in WW2.
It would be cool to hear about the US Atlantic Fleet and what it has been doing so far in WW2. The US Pacific Fleet rightfully always gets the majority of the glory in WW2 but the US Atlantic Fleet was in the early parts of the war a larger fleet then the US Pacific Fleet was. The US Atlantic Fleet did also get into combat against Axis ships (normally submarines) and it's primary job was defending convoys moving across the Atlantic.
Other raiders operated in the Pacific sinking ships off Australia and NZ and laying mines. They also destroyed the fertiliser facilities on Nauru twice.
An interesting and little-known side of the naval war. Thanks!
You're welcome! Glad you liked it!
I think the Merchant Raiders are among the most intriguing part of naval ww2 history. I like the kinda rag tag independent vessel with guns from others places and modifications
I love these specials.
We're happy you enjoy them!
Merchant ship sinks cruisers! Wow, that was intense!😱
Light cruisers simply cannot take torpedo hits and 6 inch gunfire. Their advantage is speed and superior fire control, but closing to within a mile did negate both these things and made the fight pretty even. As Kormoran had the opening volley, her chances were actually pretty good.
Even a speedboat loaded with explosives could sink a cruiser if it could get close enough. Light cruisers weren't built to take heavy punishment, but rather to go fast. Their 6" main guns could outrange the standard 4" or 5" guns on destroyers. The intended role for cruisers in the pre-aircraft carrier era was to protect battleships from torpedo-armed destroyers, by being fast enough to engage them before they could get within torpedo range of the main battle line.
Once WWII started then everything changed. Lots of ships ended up getting used in roles they weren't designed for. Battleships, for example, didn't really get to fulfil their Mahanian role of slugging it out in a decisive battle for control of the ocean, but instead became mostly useful for shore bombardment and antiaircraft protection for aircraft carriers.
USS Indianapolis (CA-35) was another example of a cruiser (in her case, a heavy cruiser) that sank rapidly with what turned out to be heavy loss of life. Two hits with Type 95 torpedoes from the Japanese submarine I-58 sank Indianpolis in just 12 minutes. A sequence of foul-ups then led to the survivors drifting forgotten at sea for four days before a patrol aircraft spotted them unexpectedly, and only 316 of the 1,195 crewmen aboard ultimately survived - the largest loss of life from a single ship in US Navy history. I'm sure Indy will get to this tragic story when the series gets up to 1945. (Sorry about the spoiler...)
The main takeaway from these sad events seems to be: never send out a cruiser unescorted. And maybe consider using your floatplanes more. Most WWII cruisers carried floatplanes for reconnaissance and spotting. If your floatplanes are aloft when the cruiser blows up, maybe one of them can get a distress call out.
@@danielmocsny5066 That was interesting information! I have heard about this incident before and it could have meen Mark Felton that made a video about it.
The "problem" is that we just read and hear about the magestic battleships and carriers, but the cruisers and destroyers wrecked in a battle are just numbers that almost seem unimportant.
Kormoran: Parts and technical group for the forest moon.
Sydney: Hey, the moon doesn't have any forests!
Not even Endor?
@@Philip271828 I'm operating on the guess that the ships involved were only aware of Earth's moon, and not Endor. I could be wrong about that, though ;)
Wow, those Germans had real courage. What an amazing story. Huge respect for what they did there. There should be a movie about these guys.
what was their courage...? They just robbed and killed. Would You like to be one of the victims (probably dying in open waters killed by sharks)? They luckily survived, the marines from HMAS Sydney did not.... They served in criminal organisation under the murderer (Hitler)... They used tricky methods for what could be shot...The could have escaped from Germany or try to avoid consription - they didn't... Just to bring death to the world...
Thank you for another great and informative and interesting video!
I had never heard of Nazi pirates. Great episode!
Thank you!
With assistance from the Soviet icebreaker Lenin, she passed through the several Arctic Ocean passages in August. She also later received help from the Joseph Stalin. In early September, the Komet crossed the Bering Strait into the Pacific Ocean. The passage was an amazing achievement and would have ended in disaster had it not been for the Soviets, whose help had come at a price: 950,000 Reichsmarks. For many of the German crew, this was their first experience in Arctic waters.
Wackipedia
The memorial at Geraldton in Western Australia puts perspective on the HMAS Sydney tragedy, 1 metal seagull for every sailor who died aboard, only one body was recovered and was identified in 2021. The nerve of the Kormoran's crew is astonishing, they let Sydney approach VERY close before opening fire, The Kormoran Lifeboat is still at Carnarvon in WA.
This upload is great!!
Thank you!
The photo of the ship you had that rescued Kormoran survivors was the AHS (Australian Hospital Ship) Centaur before it became a hospital ship. It was later torpedoed without warning off the coast of Brisbane by the Japanese submarine I-177 while wearing it's red cross markings and fully under lights in it's role as a hospital ship. Only 64 of the 332 crew and hospital staff survived.
As you say, German raiders all maintained false identities, In Kormoran"s case it was that of a Dutch merchantman when HMAS Sydney encountered her.
Though HMAS Sydney was a battle hardened warship, It sank an Italian cruiser in the Mediterranean, its captain, Burnett, certainly was NOT. He got closer and closer to Kormoran without getting the secret code for the Dutch merchantman the ship claimed to be until Sydney was merrily sailing alongside Kormoran a thousand or so meters away. That is point blank range and it took away all of the considerable advantages Sydney possessed. And when Kormoran revealed its true colours this turned into a very one sided fight, with Sydney's bridge, front guns and gunnery control wiped out almost immediately. Very few of Kormoran's crew died in the actual battle while Sydney's crew of over 600 perished to a man.
Burnett stuffed up big time and it cost the lives of his entire crew.
German revenge for the destruction of the Emden a German light cruiser in WW1
@@pmvolsing6930 Yes indeed, it is a great irony that Sydney's First World War predecessor should sink Germany's most successful raider, the Emden, which had sunk 28 steamers and a British and French warship to boot. The Emden had a fake 4th funnel to look like a British warship and was engaged in destroying the British telegram and radio station on the Cocos Islands. The Sydney happened to be passing nearby on convoy duty when it picked up a distress signal from the station, diverted and then blew the crap out of the Emden. It was faster and had bigger guns. And it followed that up by chasing down the Emden's tender which was scuttled. It returned to tend to the wounded from the Emden. Boy, what a contrast.
Its mast has been erected on Sydney Harbor as a memorial.
I had to read this title three times, each with more excitement!
You really should do a mini on this battle. One of the most stirring naval battles of the war was the Liberty ship Stephen Hopkins vs. the German Raider Stier. The Hopkins would eventually sink, as would be expected as the Stier had a massive armament superiority, but the Liberty ship's 4 inch gun crew although pretty much eventually wiped out during it's heroic resistance, put enough holes in the Stier that the Germans were forced to scuttle the vessel, a major victory for the Merchant Mariners but which has gotten little publicity because it wasn't an official US Navy victory. The US Merchant Marine was significantly slighted after the war after they had done so much for the war effort.
Neutrality is a fickle thing ....
Belgium : 'Moves IV bag' You are right.
Can we please get a chronological (with specials) playlist Indy? Like with your last project? I loved listening to the old one as a “podcast” if you will
The Royal Navy wrote an instruction manual for merchant marine captains.
It had the latest information what the captain should do in certain situations.
Under the heading "What to do if the Cormorant comes along side you and gives you specify demands', it says 'Don't Arrrgue'
Why would the Royal Navy write a Manual for the American Merchant Marine? Can you at least get the ships names right?
Does QQQ actually stand for something like SOS (Save our Souls/Ship) or is it just an alarm?
Alarm.
"QQQ" warned of an unknown raider (usually an auxiliary cruiser.)
@@janiceduke1205 thank you.
@@shawnr771 😉
SOS doesn't mean anything. It's just a signal that even those not versed in morse code could easily remember.
Thank you World War Two for shining a light on the story of HMAS Sydney. A fine and often successful ship, shame to have lost the Sydney to Kormoran in this way.
r. i. p.
Watching this on Internation Talk like a Pirate day
Most of the crew of the Kormoran was lucky to have survived the war in POW camps. Their colleagues in the Bismarck, Scharnhorst and Tirpitz would not be so lucky.
Excellent stuff bro
Thanks Clarence, stay tuned every week for more
We've got all these games that allow you to play the role of a U-boat. Isn't it about time someone did a game where you played as a disguised surface raider?
Sydney was lost with all hands. Kormoran eventually sank and at least part of the crew was captured by Australian ships.
Kormoran crew members were (I think) the only German military held in Australian POW camps.
Some of the Kormoran crew escaped from the Aussie POW camp, but were recaptured.
How they hoped to escape from Australia I do not know.
Why would you want to leave the POW camp in Australia, you have a far better chance of surviving within the camp than in the outback
Gee.. I'm pretty sure my grandfather was on this boat > 8:06 you skimmed by Haha! 3 years in a POW camp in Japan for both bombs.
You have too talk about the attack on the Norwegian whailing fleet in the antartica
SS Stephen Hopkins was the first (and only) US merchant ship to sink a German surface combatant during the war. Ordered to stop, Stephen Hopkins refused to surrender, so the heavily armed German commerce raider Stier and her tender Tannenfels with one machine gun opened fire. Although greatly outgunned, the crew of Stephen Hopkins fought back, replacing the Armed Guard crew of the ship's lone 4-inch (100 mm) gun with volunteers as they fell. The fight was short, and both ships were wrecks.
Wackipedia
The Nazis: Bandits and looters on land, pirates and plunderers at sea.
Bandits and looters on land, pirates and plunderers at sea. Just want to make sure it doesn't sound repetitive.
@@Butter_Warrior99 Sounds better, indeed.
Yeah because state licensed privateering is such an unusual thing in human history....
The fact it mainly hit the british is a bit of irony in itself considering Britain beeing the most famous privateering nation in history.
I do not know how, but World War Three will feature sky pirates.
@@cwovictor3281 But what about space pirates?
8:35 Oops! It was a light cruiser, an Australian version of the Leander class.
It was a Leader Class cruiser
I just noticed that the ship that intercepted the SMS Emden in WWI was also called HMAS Sydney.
Thank you for another well done video.
You're welcome!
I've always considered German Commerce Raiders of both World Wars to be exceedingly interesting. Great video.
Great job! Excellent video.
Thank you
'Glass Joe" lol. Thank you Sir, for the update to my vocabulary.
Oh yeah another WW2 in REAL TIME SPECIAL!!!👍👍👍
Loss of the Sydney was a huge embarrassment to the Australian navy and the folly of her skipper was a caution to all.
What a time it must have been to live. Respect to the men of the sea. Were there any Allied Raiders of note?
I really appreciate how you don't even _mention_ the conspiracy theories around the disappearance of the Sidney
Fascinating! Learned something new today! :)
HMAS Sydney: "Shuttle Tydirium, what is your cargo and destination?"
"The wrecks of both ships were lost until 2008; Sydney was found on 17 March, five days after her adversary"
0:11 Harmless "trader" or "traitor"...? Honestly I heard the latter initially.
No one drives it home like you Indy!
Great episode indy and crew! Had no idea the Germans did this
Thank you! Glad you learned something
Sydney got off more than one salvo!
It was a torpedo from Kormaron about a minute into the firefight that mortality wounded her. Also, Kormaron's 20mm & anti than guns cut down many of Sydney's crew as they were so close, (Sydney came in far too close & much closer than operating procedures called for), & many of Sydney's crew were on deck & not at battle station's as they should have been.
It's strangely admirable that amidst a conflict like the Second World War, that the raiders would actually go through the formality of raising the proper flag before attacking.
I could be wrong but I think the HMAS Sydney was the largest ship of WW2 that got sunk with all hands. Every other bigger ship that got sunk had at least a few survivors.
Fascinating! Thanks!
Glad you liked it!
Great topic