I'm a big SF reader and I recently made a comment on GR that I ought to give the Altered Carbon series a go and someone who knows I'm trans suggested I google that author--I immediately knew what she was hinting at. So I googled his name with "TERF" and yep. My reply was "Fortunately the world is full of other books and stories." We're not lacking in that department.
Dear fellow readers, please know: You supported someone for being an author who wrote stuff you loved to read. That's why you bought their books, and not because of stuff you did not and could not know. Much love and hugs to you all.
While I understand they are currently allegations, the details are very damning. Either one or both of the women (I can’t recall) went to the police within 24 hours. His wife posted on social media that she and Gaiman separated around the same time as the NZ incident. They later divorced. The sickening part is how he projected in public that he was an ally for women’s rights, including to “believe women” about SA. That did not age well to say the least.💔
@@windy8544 he was abusive to them outside the sa, even if they consented to sex with him (as he claims - I feel the need to say I don't believe his claims). abuse is still bad even if there is no sa, he would still be an awful person if the only thing he did was abuse women instead of abuse AND sa women.
Gaiman travelled from New Zealand to Scotland during the Covid lockdown when he abruptly separated from his notoriously open-minded wife. At the time, that was difficult to understand. He could afford to have moved to a local hotel or air b&b. He apologised to locals but suffered no penalty. It seems now he was pursued by his guilty conscience. They may just be allegations but who would want to put themselves into the firing line by accusing a multimillionaire who makes his living making up very believable fiction? The public persecution of a relatively rich woman who defended herself from a mega-rich actors legal assault makes it clear what could happen.
I'm a 56 year old woman who grew up listening to her mom's Bill Cosby comedy albums constantly. They got me through a lot of hard times. So I understand feeling horrified when you find out someone you admired is not the good guy you thought they were.
In that case, it is like an actor portraying a character. However, that doesnt help any, because an actor can be so large in personality that you cant imagine the character without them, and i can take this line of thinking to be that a writer is in the words he writes too, even through all the edits and such... even if we write deep pov
I mean whenever that is called assault or not, from comments its clear he is a major creep abusing his power and, reportds seem to confirm he very creepy does take adventage, even young women at a con were warned to not be alone with him ominous. So he definitly did wrong things whatever aou call it.
the fact that he tried to blame his autism for his monstrous acts, really makes me disgusted as an autistic woman. It gross me out so much. how dare he blame it on that as if neurodivergent community isn't already facing horrible sh!ts.
It also shows the misogyny that can exist within the neurodivergent community. Some autistic men will blame their neurodivergence for atrocious behaviour, while autistic women will be ostracized or written off because of their condition without doing anything wrong. It is a horrible double standard and it needs to stop.
I know, right? I feel like, as an autistic person, I spend most my time with all my people interactions making sure I saw, heard, respected, and didn't void anyone's boundaries. I may struggle with "normal" social queues, but I definitely understand "Yes" and "No" and I easily comprehend that others, just like me, want to be left alone and respected. He can't just explain away his heinous, disgusting acts against people as "Oops, my autism acted up".
@@fuindes_batwingsI am an autistic person too, and I was talking with my autist friends about this as well, as we ended up unanimously concurring that our lack of ability to read social cues makes us MORE cautious and OVERLY seeking clarification/consent, not less. For me, I don't want to ever unintentionally cause someone upset. Like any person, I have my own boundaries (e.g. sensory touch like shaking hands/hugs from people I don't really know). It is insulting and disgusting for him to attempt to use his diagnosis as a means of explanation. Don't lump our community in your personal crimes, Neil.
I'm autistic and I hadn't known he said that, or that he identifies as autistic (I have long found Gaiman to be pretty gross and creepy as a person so I largely have him and his superfans curated out of my social media). Anyhow, autistic people are by far more likely or be victims of grooming and sexual assault, so it's extremely bad for someone this high profile to make that kind of statement that will no doubt shape allistics' perceptions of us. Such selfishness on his part.
It's so disappointing considering how much he seemingly talked about and respected Ursula K le Guin for her writing, and talked about how she'd 'taught him that women were people too' when he read her books as a child. Maybe he didn't learn enough. But really I think he's just got very good at paying lip service while behind the scenes he's doing the opposite.
Hi WIllow, thanks for this video. I think what feels so heartbreaking about Neil Gaiman is the way he portrayed himself as a champion for women's rights and he always made himself very availble to fans, in person, on tumblr, etc. These traits that made him seem safe and relatable were actually fake and very predatory. I love your message that there is a practically infinate amount of brilliant literature out there to discover and makes me excited to go out there and find new favs instead.
@@elizabethgriffith8684 I heard about the tub club thing he had going where young women would post themselves reading his books in the bath and it sounded maybe a bit questionable.
Gaiman, just like Rowling, were my literary idols. I wanted to be like them. My writing was influenced by them, whether I like the fact currently or not. So yeah, I'm sad af that two of my most formative authors are pure sacks of crap. I'm not buying anything else from his works, old or new. But I think I'll keep my Absolute Sandman books on my shelf for now, at least for a while, if only for the monetary factor. They were HELLA expensive here in Brazil and I bought them all last year, I have to at least finish reading them before I decide to do something. What a place to live in, this Earth that we share, huh?
There's something I always find myself saying whenever a beloved writer/actor/whatever turns out to be a shit stain: All of the memories we have of their works, the personal meanings, the representation, and inspiration they awoke in us, and all the other stuff: that's not the author, that's what WE brought TO the authors work. Books are experienced, and we bring our experiences to them. Things resonate because of who WE are. And regardless of how shitty the author is, all that good stuff comes from us, not them, and it's not tainted by the fact that they unambiguously suck. Sandman, for example, was very inspiring for me as a non binary person. One of the first times ever that I'd seen a gender ambiguous character like Desire in media, and then Mason Alexander Park just killed it in the Netflix show. Gaiman can't take that away. I brought that shit. Even if we never support that author again, nobody can take the good stuff we brought to the work in the past away from us, because WE brought it. I find it helps me to separate that in my head. I hold on to the good experiences I had/brought, and then find someone who isn't a shit stain to read in the future.
I don't think is fair. The reader and fan(dom) experience is important, but artists still deserve credit for the work and thought they put in. The existence of artists who are personally morally wrong/dangerous doesn't negate the role of all artists. I'm not saying we should worship artists as lone Great Men, but antagonism towards artists is often part of larger anti-intellectualism trends that are also dangerous. I know separating art from artist is a flawed conception and I'm not really suggesting it, but what it more comes down to is that one can be immensely talented and a horrific person and acting like one can negate the other in any way is pointless to say the least.
I half agree with that. I personally think a person can be shitty/horrible while still making good art and/or being an inspiration, simply because human beings aren't black and white and can be many things at the same time. I'm still glad I read Neil Gaiman's books, because it inspired me as a wannabe author, but I won't support him after finding out about this. I still enjoy his work for what it is.
Bar Good Omens (which I’ll just pretend Pratchett entirely wrote) I gave my Gaiman books to charity shops recently. I couldn’t face binning them, but at least some good might go to a charity from them going there. However marginally, try and cancel out the harm he’s likely done.
This is going to sound like a gotcha, but it's a genuine question. If there is some kind of moral fault with owning the books, isn't giving them to charity putting that moral wrong onto poor people? Unless you mean having them would just give bad memories personally.
@ it’s not a perfect solution. I’m not comfortable holding onto the books (plus I’ve got limited space in my flat) but I’m not willing to physically bin them. The only alternative is to give them away in some form. My work has a book exchange system, but I feel like if I donate them to charity, at least a charity can get some modicum of benefit from all this.
There's nothing wrong with owning the books you bought before you knew about who wrote them, but it is reasonable to want to be rid of them because they've been ruined by association in your mind. There's also nothing wrong, IMO, with buying the books secondhand or checking them out from the library because you're not going money to a bad person. As far as I'm concerned, it's only ever a problem if you're still buying new works (or new copies of old works) because at that point you're directly supporting a bad person and giving them your money. But that's just my line. Whatever you can reconcile is your line.
I was so fucking angry about this. I've been a Gaiman fan for years, two decades at least, and his association with Pratchett gave me a lot of comfort because of his lovely stories about him and memories of him. All those tributes to him, with Neil on them, is soul destroying. But we need to believe victims, we need to believe those women. I hope they can heal now.
I was the biggest NG fan ever, and when I first heard the allegations, I was like 'no...Neil couldn't have done this.' Like he was a personal friend or something. But then I actually bothered to listen to the podcasts...and, as inept as they sometimes are and as much as I dislike Rachel Johnson, they have serious weight behind them. I believe the victims, especially that tearful lady who worked for him at his NY residence. Yes these are still allegations, but Gaiman's voice messages, his (paradoxical) silence since, these women's detailed accounts and Gaiman's NDAs and monies paid to silence them have left me both disgusted and disappointed with the man. But I'm mainly disappointed with myself; for keeping him on a ridiculously high pedestal for so long. The Sandman and The Graveyard Book are my favourite NG works, and both of these are now sullied...especially when one thinks of 'Calliope' in context of this (and then there's the Nada storyline), and hearing that Gaiman apparently assaulted one lady whilst he was in the process of writing The Graveyard Book. To be honest, his lack of writing anything new in now 11 years, and an increasing sense of smugness I detected about him was already putting me off. But this matter has been the final stake through the heart. As a transwoman myself, I don't want him being associated with us...even if he genuinely supports our community. As someone on the spectrum, I'm furious that he would use autism as an excuse for this behaviour, and as a fan, I disown him...even if I can just about separate some of his most cherished works from the man. Christ, after this, Rowling and today's election results, I'm ready to give up on humanity. Our gods (Gaiman, Rowling or Trump) only remain abusive powermongers when we keep them there. Thanks for this Willow. To add: I now also think he's a poor man's Clive Barker...who has a much greater imagination, is multi-talented, but is also sadly neglected these days. There's still a tiny part of me that hopes/wishes that none of this is true, but it sadly doesn't look likely. Sigh.
I absolutely know the feeling - Sandman in particular was a huge influence on me as a teenager. Personally the final nail in the coffin for me was his own words - even if you could discount what the women themselves had to say (and I absolutely do not) the way he himself described his behaviour may portray it in a way which is not criminal but it still describes the actions of an abusive creep - and that's from reading his side of it. When you bring the women's version of events into it on top of that - he's dead to me whether the courts put him away or not at this point.
@@elliewallace6370 ditto. I think he's also used his image of a 'male feminist' and trans supporter, etc, to further hide this behaviour. Much like Joss Whedon too. Even thinking that the writer of Coraline was also forcing female fans/employees into BDSM situations is sickening. I did his masterclass a few years back, and at one point he's telling this story about hornets or something, and how it inspired Coraline. He then talks about how female fans would later come up to him at signings, etc, and thank him for writing the book and how it got them through dark/abusive times...so that again is hugely crushing now. He likes to quote as regards Coraline, 'when you scared of something , but do it anyway, then that's brave'. Well these women were scared of coming forth about him, but they've done it anyway. They're brave in ways he's never been.
@@EmlynBoyle Oh my God I remember that class - I took it several years ago when I got a year's masterclass subscription as a present to myself after drafting my first novel. I remember way back then thinking it was the most useful class I'd ever taken trying to get my writing feet under me (Margaret Atwood's was entertaining but her brain works in too different a way from mine for many of her writing tips to be useful for me). Not so great feeling looking back on it .
@@elliewallace6370same. While it was useful at the time, I could never ever watch it again. I believe Brandon Sanderson has a similar course on RUclips. It’s free, just as useful and isn’t presented by a creep.
As someone in the BDSM community, when I first heard details of the charges, they had the ring of truth. It's exactly the kind of abuse that's common in the community. And I'm certain Gaiman believed he was doing nothing wrong and that it was all consensual. Because he failed to recognize the power differential (beyond the D/s aspect).
He apparently made remarks like "kiss me as if you mean it" and somesuch, insisting they show him they want what he's doing to them, which to me implies he realized they did NOT want it. His behaviour seems too calculated, manipulative and predatory for me to believe he was just terribly confused.
Rumours have been around for a while. The guys in Forbidden Planet in Newcastle used to say that if Neil was doing a signing you never left him alone with any female staff members as he was a little...over familiar. When if comes to problematic artists I'm of the opinion that if they are long dead it's ok, that's why I can still read H.P Lovecraft.
Wow, that’s disgusting! I generally feel similarly, but with the caveat that they can still do damage, depending on who they are and what they wrote. Yukio Mishima still inspires incel men, for example
@@WillowTalksBooks I get what you're saying but the only caveat there is that good and bad people can draw inspiration from art independently of the author's intent or personal beliefs - I've seen people use To Kill a Mockingbird to promote gaslighting rape victims for example where that really isn't the point or intent of the work at all - I guess the death of the author isn't always that simple even if the author is actually dead.
Lovecraft was a deeply troubled person whose explicit racism is very much a part of that damaged personality. That flaw is worthy of study without diminishing it's terribleness. However he was never accused of being any kind of predator. Making him him a differant case to Gaiman.
Lovecraft's mythos has also been used by so many other writers, often to subvert the very things that he believed in. If you haven't already, check out N.K. Jemisin's "Great Cities" books, a pair of thoroughly Lovecraftian novels by a brilliant Black woman who uses his ideas to utterly smash his ideals! Her use of The White Woman, an eldritch corporate white Karen, as an avatar of cosmic horror attempting to negate all life in every universe, is pure genius.
I agree with everything you said. Maybe this sounds too jaded, but even though I did really like a lot of Gaiman's work, this is a man who has essentially rockstar status in the book world, and is known to be a weird/creepy dude. I don't find any of this surprising. Sad state of things.
Something that I've always wondered...does time have an impact on how we react to works written by awful people? Like, if a living author turns out to be a horrible person we might disown the works, but what about someone who lived 1000 years ago? Does time and culture of origin play a role? Does knowing that the author was a bad person from the start vs falling in love with their works and then finding out have an impact? Does genre/the kind of book matter?
To me it matters if my actions end up putting money in the hands of someone who was criminal/hateful or even worse continuing to commit crimes/hate. Once the author is literally dead, then enjoy the works without regard to the actions of the author. So for me, that means no more JKR, Orson Scott Card, Woody Allen. But Michael Jackson, maybe. I am still not sure if the people who enabled his own wrongdoing…and also contributed to his death…might still be profiting from his work. However, buying used copies or unauthorized work based on an IP might be okay if not used in a way that promotes the IP. Bad people can produce good things, just like good people can inadvertently produce bad things or even harmful things.
I have a similar issue with Roald Dahl in that I love his books and I do feel like they teach some great things to kids. But Roald Dahl himself, from what I've read, was not a good person. Something that I am trying to work with is that bad people have made good things. My way of moving forward is to buy his books second hand so none of the money goes directly towards whoever runs his affairs now.
I'm writing an essay on "art monsters" and what to do with their art, and decided to start by speaking of my feelings about Marion Zimmer Bradley, whose Mists of Avalon I loved as a teen, and discovered later that she abused her children in horrific way. I still don't know what to do about her, or Neil Gaiman, or any of the others art monsters... but I like exploring these feelings around them
@@WillowTalksBooks I remember her. Back in the good old days when I was young I red a lot of her books. Mostly because she was one of the few female fantasy authors translated to my language. I was in my late teens when I stoped reading her because even my naive country bumpkin self felt something was off in her books. Don't get me wrong she was one of the first authors who had kind of gay representation in her books and thanks to her I knew about menstruation when I got my first period so I wasn't freaked out and didn't think I would die. Which makes thw betrayal I feel with her even worse. In hindsight there were hints even in her earlier books too but I was not experienced enought to catch it. Later a friend told me about a book were one of the characters were SAd by his father, forgave him and later fought their enemies with him or something. Was just a chat in passing and I was like wtf MZB!?! My friend totaly could told me trash but in that moment my sudden dislike of the books made sense and I never touched them again. Some time later what happend to her children came to light.
MZB's bestie and writing partner Diana Paxson just got kicked out of tne Troth and had ner clergy status revoked for enabling and covering up SA. Marion's daughter, Moira, wrote a book about the abuse. Both her brothers committed suicide due to the abuse. I disagree with her about many things, but I believe her and the other victims. "The Last Closet: the Dark Side of Avalon."
@@WillowTalksBooks She was a big fantasy-scifi author in the 70s and 80s, I'd say, big name in the community and helped a lot of other writers establish themselves. I knew her from the Avalon books, which my neighbour lent to me when I was 14 or so and I loved her feminist take on the Arthurian myths. Haven't read anything else by her, but finding out about what she did to her children sours the memory of enjoying her books. Same with Neil Gaiman and others, but it's still complicated.
@@leighharwood3886 The way I found about her was through an aunt's post on FB, an article with a title like "Feminist Legend Acused of Horrific Child Abuse", and I clicked because I felt I knew all the Feminist Legends and what sort of lurid lie they had invented about them. It was a very religious website, so I had to corroborate (though I do think that calling MZB a "feminist legend" is a bit of an overstatement). I was flabbergasted.
Dead people are dead, there is no one to hold accountable and I won't give up their books because I found out something about them post mortem. I didn't know them, I didn't know when I read the book, I can't seek their perspective, so I have no reason to boycott a dead person's work. A person who is alive can be held accountable. I will always love the stories, nothing will change that but I always thought Neil himself was a little... off. I never wanted to meet him but his books got me through some really tough times. Controversial as the sentiment is, no one is just the horrible things they do. Every horrible person is still a person and all the weird mixed up crap that comes with that title. A horrible person can still write a wonderful story. I own the books and I won't get rid of them. The stories are written and out in the world and have been for decades. They have nothing to do with Neil now and everything to do with MY relationship with them. However, I will no longer support him going forward. I will form no new relationships with his work because those would be colored by the new knowledge I have that he is, at the very least extremely skeezey, if not exactly a predator. I don't have enough information to judge him beyond that. I don't feel guilty for still loving the stories that helped me till now, though. Those were never relationships with the author, anyway, but with the stories and how I felt reading them. Continued support of his work, however, is a choice I choose not to make. If you use your fame as leverage for intimate favors... yeah, you don't get to have it.
Great video. So often people want someone to be the arbitrator for them, but we have to make our own choices informed by morals, perspectives, needs, etc. I enjoy Warhammer 40,000 and I am very aware and critical of the issues with Games Workshop, Black Library, and parts of the community. The works of Dali, Picasso, Lovecraft, Poe, etc. all hold value and meaning to me and I am also aware of their abhorrent views and/ or actions. They're also dead, so that helps. Making informed decisions and not be reactionary and holding arbitrary hypocritical positions is key. I appreciate the way you approached this ❤
Another thing is, in relation to Gaiman, is that during Covid, when everyone was meant to be sheltering in place, he left New Zealand, and travelled to the Isle of Skye, Scotland. The Scottish police did caution him. So, there does seem to be a high level of entitlement with Gaiman.
I’ve always been uncomfortable with him since his father was the leading proponent of Scientology in the UK and he never seemed to distance himself from that. This behavior aligns with the bad behavior of high ranking Scientologists. Sounds like he’s the Danny Masterson of literature. Let’s hope that the legal system will sort this out appropriately.
Would you want to be a witness for the prosecution in the trial of a multimillionaire whose profession is believable lies and still has millions of dedicated fans? A recent legal circus made it clear how badly that can turn out.
I understand your deep disappointment. My favorite author used to be Sherman Alexie, an indigenous writer. Sexual allegations against him broke my heart. Years later I'm still troubled.
Bad people can make good art. I’m trans and like, a lot of the authors on my shelf, now dead, would probably have hated my guts. They enslaved people and murdered and raped, callously. But most of those are old enough that the author is dead. That’s the distinction to me: it is not a sin to consume art made by a bad person. The only reason I’m going to boycott art is if supporting it lends aid to a materially harmful cause - so I’m not going to buy or promote Rowling books because that money goes directly to hurting trans people. Similarly, I wouldn’t buy or promote a book from an author who was dead but whose publisher was doing harmful stuff. If I buy a copy anyway, I’m going to do so used so the money doesn’t go back to the source, but I’m not going to throw away works I already own just because they were written by a terrible person. Of course if you feel differently that’s your business. Also: there are SO MANY MORE NAMES than Gaiman’s on the comics. Gaiman’s is the biggest, but the art is at least half of why I like Sandman, and he had nothing to do with that. Even if you are on the side of disposing of authors entirely, what do we do with THAT?
Both Morpheus and Crowley are clearly self-insert characters for Gaiman. That is what gives me the ick now. I will not be seeing the rump of either show, though I have been fans of both since they first appeared in print.
I think the art is separate to the artist. I can't remove his old works as they are in a way now a small part of me. However, choosing to continue to support future works is something else entirely.
I have the same feelings, but then still, if you think about it - we are only now learning about it, he was apparently doing those awful things when he was creating some of those works :(
@@wiktoriatluvi He was. And that's going to be true for every similar instance, wether it is writers, actors, musicians, you name it. But noone can change the past, you can't unread books or unwatch films. We can only choose what we do with this information tomorrow.
If we talked about all the horrible and dirty things that any artist has done in their life, I think we would end up throwing away half of the world's art and throwing away billions of books from libraries. Today we can learn about these painful cases, and give ourselves the opportunity to judge what to do with their works. Should Neil Gaiman stand trial? ...Of course!!. I stay with what is written, that with his person they do what is right, I stay with the talent that he has left behind when writing stories.
"Innocent until proven guilty" is a constraint on government, not on private citizens, just as government can't abridge free speech, but that doesn't mean a restaurant has to let a bloviator address the customers during dinner, and they have to listen.
Yeah, when there are 1 or 2 accusations, I say, innocent until proven guilty. Once you're talking numerous accusations, I feel comfortable with social consequences.
To a certain degree mob violence should be guarded against, but there's nothing that can be done against the court of public opinion (free speech if it's not hate speech or serious calls for violence). That being said, Gaiman has essentially confessed at this point.
No, "innocent until proven guilty" is not just about the state. It's about not being hasty on trusting someone to condemn someone else. But the thing a lot of peoples saying "innocent until proven guilty" forget is that it goes both ways. Accusing someone of lying/defaming when they claim to be victims (and acting on it by, for example, harassing them) is literally considering them to be guilty of lying before it being proven. "Trusting the victims" and helping them to go forward with the judicial process is part of "innocent until proven guilty". And for personally opinion, while we don't need to follow something as strict as "beyond reasonable doubt" of the justice system, we ought to give time and reflection to not judge peoples purely on what was claimed, and ought to be suspicious of anything that conveniently matches our vision of the world and want to be true without seeing any proof. (E.g. if you already hate the guts of the accused, don't immediately trust any accusation against them just because it confirms your opinion of them)
We must all conduct ourselves in alignment with our values and ethics to the best of our knowledge and ability. To me that includes my purchasing decisions because I don't want my small amount of money to go to support people/activities/practices that are counter to my values and ethics. Doing this will always attract trolling, anger and ire from others but I am the one that must be able to look in the mirror each day and be happy with the person I am. I support your take 100%.
I recently got back into reading and have all his books on hold at my library. I adored The Graveyard and cried. Reading Norse Mythology currently. Ugh it all makes me sick. I love his works but this is something else. And this following these election results, I just have this deep pit of disappointment that idk what to do with. 😭
You briefly touched on the conflict between "innocent until proven guilty" and "believe the woman". I watched this play out in a small group I'm part of, where two young women who were relatively new to the group made what initially seemed like credible accusations of inappropriate sexual behavior by an older man who had a long history and was well respected. Long story short, over the course of a few months it became clear that the women were (a) friends and (b) delusional about this matter along with many others. They lost all credibility, and left the group. But the damage was done. The man also mostly withdrew from participation. He was unable to shake off the feeling of betrayal resulting from how quickly we believed the women despite his years of rock-solid reputation with the group. I didn't know how to thread this needle. I think that 95% of the time believing the women is the right decision. But there's no good way to determine *which* 95%.
Many other writers might turn out to have done horrible things, which we don't know about yet. I don't assume someone is a good person or a bad person because I admire their work. I don't know them personally, so I only make the same assumptions about them as I do about most strangers. The idea of innocent until proven guilty can apply to the fans as well, in that we assume that our favourite authors must be good people, until they prove that they're guilty when something like this comes to light. I won't be getting rid of my copies of Gaiman's work, because I read him due to his skills as an author, not because I like him as a person. However, I respect other people's right to make the same choice for themselves.
Thank you so much for sharing this. Today, I uploaded a re-edit of a video that initially featured Neil Gaiman prominently and no longer does. As I was writing my post explaining my decision, I saw your pop-up video and appreciated what you said.
I have Gaiman (and Rowling) in my book collection. Orson Scott Card, too. But at some point, I made the same decision you made to never spend money on them again. Do I get rid of my Sandman comics? I don't think so. It's a sunk cost fallacy and most of his projects are collaborations with other artists (Terry Pratchett, for one). The only author I've been purposeful about deleting from my collection is Marion Zimmer Bradley, who was a different kind of monster all together.
If an author like Rowling openly takes a stand about a topic I deeply disagree with the decision is very clear - I don't support that person in any way. It is way more difficult if we only have accusations. Therefor I totally agree, the best way is to collect as much info as we can and then decide for ourselfs what we feel is right. And I think it also important to not only reflect on what persons we support but also what we consume in daily life (brands). I often feel we are so quick to decide to love or hate a person but we mindlessly consume and support brands that are also morally not at all in line with what we believe.
Well this sucks. Thanks for making the video. I had somehow missed all of this. :/ I'm with you - we all need to figure out how we will react to something like this and live accordingly. I'm really disappointed right now, so quite a few books will be coming off my TBR. Thanks for reminding us also about the enormity of literature to devour. : )
I just assume all artists are problematic in some way. I never liked Potter or read any Gaiman. Maybe I have a good radar? But it wouldn’t shock me to discover my personal favourites were creepy. As a music fan genius seems to go hand in hand with a lot of darkness.
Have you thought about doing a video about authors that scratch an itch that aren’t assholes (instead of Potter try blank, ect. ) I would be all over that.
Thank you for making a video on this, Willow. This has been on my mind a lot because similarly to you, I also got into reading largely through his books and they were some of the things that got me through high school, pretty much. I also made the decision not to engage with his work/support him anymore, but I've noticed there's a part of me that feels oddly... guilty for having enjoyed the books in the first place? So I just need to keep reminding myself that at the time I had no reason NOT to support him but now that I do have one, I'm consciously making the decision not to engage. The circumstances have changed, but so has the way I'm approaching his work. That's the best we can do as his former fans right now.
Another great, thoughtful video Willow! I never finished HP so never felt many conflicting emotions about JKR being horrible. This whole situation really messed with me though. I spent a lot of my teen years reading Gaiman's work to get through the tough times bought about by complex traumas. Speaking as a survivor of SA myself, books were (and still are) a safe haven for me, to have a previous favourite author behave in this way towards women and girls feels viscerally wrong to me. Glad to have channels like yours to recommend more diverse (and hopefully less ethically shitty) authors i should be reading instead.
I’m so gutted by this - Coraline is one of my favourite childhood stories, and I have turned to it for comfort for years. I was just talking about it with a friend yesterday. It sucks how often we are disappointed by people we look up to. I think Gaiman will be joining JK Rowling in my attic until further notice. Thanks for making this video and talking about this, I had no idea about the allegations!
I don't get why people conflate "writes well" or "sees this part of reality the way I see it" with "must be a good person", what ideas about morality and/or human behaviour do you have? (general you, not specifically you, though if you want to answer, feel free.) Is it an identity thing where you identify with someone and you can't bear considering that you too are human enough to hurt others either through intent or as a result of self-deception?
@@bramvanduijn8086 this is an interesting question!! I think personally I just assume (maybe naively) that people are generally good. It's not a matter of conflating "writes well" with being a good person - it's just my baseline is assuming that people are good, and it's always disappointing when people I looked up to turn out to be not so great
@@bramvanduijn8086 it is GUTTING to be shaped by a work of art only to find out the artist has done awful things. You just want them to be good. You want everyone to be good.
I see this kind of discussion on reddit: Do you separate the author from their works? I choose not to because it would feel like condoning their actions. I'd had Neil Gaiman on my TBR list for years with some vague intentions to get around to his books. That's on ice.
@@mandyschmidt7960 Buying used books makes a lot of sense both economically and environmentally, but that wasn't my point. It's about giving an author my time and the recognition that they deserve it. Just look at Marion Zimmer Bradley and Alice Munro, one of Canada's greats. It's about what acts they committed or were complicit in covering up (often for years) that make or break it.
So do I, but you have to admit that in some of his stories, his racism and idiotic fear of another cultures is prevalent. That all said, I'm also a huge 'Dracula' fan, but the racism in some of Bram Stoker's work makes Lovecraft look like a civil rights champion.
Interesting video. Putting aside the Neil Gaiman cases while they go through court etc; separating the artist and the art is a challenging one. Many great artists / writers / composers have incredibly problematic elements to them - all the way along the spectrum. Not sure I would never want to listen to Wagner again...for example Maybe the line in the sand is, as you say, sticking to your principles about who you fund with your purchases today (i.e. people still around who benefit financially from our purchasing decisions)
My best friend is a huge Neil Gaiman fan, she has all of his works and I havent dared to talk to her about this yet and have kinda avoided everything that talkes about him until Im mentally ready for tuat, I dont think she has really seen anything anout this yet, she doesnt really follow stuff like this, and if ahe heard it she probably didnt look too much into it, being scared of what thats gonna mean and I feel so bad for her. I did really love HP when I was younger and it broke my heart when Rowling showed her true colours but I wasnt nearly as invested in it as she is not his stories, ita gonna be tough on her but I hope shes gonna be okay.
Perhaps introduce your friend to Diane Duane and other potential substitutes that will allow some comfort. Before telling about the news. She will find out eventually.
I saw another booktuber say that those who don't read authors who disagree with their wokeness, or who have done terrible things, are fascists. If you come across this kind of condemnation, I have a thought. I'm definitely not an economist. However, major authors like Gaiman are kind of like brands. Consumers have limited book budgets. They have to choose which authors to support somehow, and opportunity cost is always a factor. Some choose partly based on which authors seem to support their values. If they find out that an author doesn't actually support said values, they may choose to support other authors instead. Just because an author exists, doesn't mean they're entitled to your money. That's just how capitalism works. Now, that doesn't mean you must give up your favorite book, especially one you've already bought. That's your decision. I'm just saying, if you no longer trust the brand, you can take your money elsewhere.
Thank you for this. It's heart breaking when someone you believe is an ally of women, a lover of people being their true selves, are revealed as perpetrators and haters. The world is a darker, scary place. Thank you for being a light.
I am so torn. On the one hand, I never want to off-handedly deny an accusation of SA. On the other, he has always been a supporter of liberal ideology, and there have been many attacks and accusations from right-wing trolls trying to discredit those voices. I suppose all I can do is wait and hope these allegations are proven false.
I have been aware of this for quite some time and am dismayed that it has barely made the news. I have been a huge NG fan since I was 15, I went to signings and readings and devoured all his work. I was later so excited that he married one of my favourite musicians, Amanda Palmer and they collaborated on music and writing that I adored. Amanda had been giving quite cryptic messages as to what has been going on, I think she must’ve signed an NDA. You only need to listen to her last E.P ‘New Zealand Survival Songs’ particularly ‘Whakanewha’ and ‘The Man Who Ate Too Much’ to get a glimpse into the hell she has been through. My Sandman’s are on the bottom shelf of the bookcase, behind my chair - for now. Thanks for talking about it Willow. Xx
Yes to your conclusion! 🥰 I was a much younger girl when JKR started losing her plot and it really hurt, but now her stuff is in a corner of my house, my soul has since been and continues to be nourished by endless other art out there. Never spending any more money on HP related things is now just an added bonus. More money for indie art and works by marginalised communities woo!
Willow, sadly I envy your ability to choose. As a woman of color I do not always have the choice to disengage from those writers who view me as an adversary. As a writer my foremost reason for reading is the writing itself. I have been made better by reading the best of the worst. "To err is human..." Aren't we all?! ❤
The idea of “death of the author” (or separating the author’s works from the actual person) is something i understand people can do but it’s so hard when buying their books directly helps them... and even more it just feels wrong supporting someone like that. The cupboard trick is a good plan or keeping his books in box, I think you’re right about seeing what happens (in court) but it doesn’t seem good at all O_O
@@fatima_hrexactly. I always see it that way in case I happen to like some wort of work by an awful famous person - I'm gonna rip them off by not letting them get my money, so secondhand and other measures it is.
For me this exact feeling was Marion Zimmer Bradley. I read everything she ever wrote through high school and my twenties, and recommended her for twenty years. Ten years or so ago, allegations of her collusion in SA of her children and maybe some foster children? by her husband came out. The most disturbing part for me personally, after reading her daughter's statements, was looking back at some of her works, I could actually see it in the stories. I can't have her books in my house and some of them were my all time favorites.
I cant even begin to express how disappointed I am with this situation. If there was a person I would have never thought this of, that was him. I can't even read anything by him anymore.
Well said, Willow. 💜 A clear and compassionate message that includes healthy boundaries, with neither apathy nor rage. This video was comforting for me today. Cheers.
For me, the only “public figures” are politicians and members of the royal family. The rest, are just normal people who happen to have a job that has made them known globally. We can't put them on pedestals and we have to separate the art from the artist. I want to buy some books from JK and Gaiman that I read in digital format years ago, but I don't own. They are going to be second hand books. That way, they don't receive a penny.
I was a huge Harry Potter fan (started reading at 8 and the last book came out when I was around 18, so a lot of my formative years), I have a ton of merchandise and a whole Ravenclaw costume. I completely understand the hurt when an author you love(d) does something like this. At least in my experience, it does get better and I feel better knowing none of my money goes to them. Now I feel glad I kept postponing getting into Neil Gaiman, one less heartache for me.
For me it's other way round, I was a bit to old when Harry Potter came out so I more or less know the franchise but never got round to reading the books and was less bothered by Rowling. Gaiman on the other hand was one of my fauvrite authors so this is really, really hard.
How can you even compare Gaiman and JKR? One has - allegedly - abused women; the other is a victim of abuse herself and has defended women's rights (even establishing a rape crisis centre). I shudder to think, that if Gaiman had declared he was trans, you would be defending his right to shower with teenage girls and no doubt calling any girl who objected a bigot. Wake up.
@ I didn’t compare what they’ve done, I compared the feeling of being let down by someone you looked up to or liked and letting go of books and stories that were a part of you. Maybe the one that needs to wake up is you, seeing the rest of your comment.
I definitely dodged the emotional rollercoaster on this one as someone who has read a few of Gaiman's works and not clicked with them (I feel he's an incredible idea person but fails on execution). For me, this one was painless. But I grew up as a Harry Potter kid - I was the same age as the main characters as the books came out. I remember the day I saw the first book at a Scholastic book fair, sitting with a car full of my friends and my mom at midnight as we waited outside bookshops for the newest releases. I have the newspaper clipping that announced the movies in a photo album somewhere because I went feral with excitement. I still have the wonder and joy of my childhood love for the world - she can't take that - but she won't get one more dime from me or one more moment of my engagement. That was the only choice I could make. And it's sad that she is only one example of dozens of musicians, directors, actors, and writers I have had to toss out of my life but, as you said, there is endless good art. I've chucked so much to the curb by now that it's gotten much easier. And there's so much out there to fill the void. More than I could consume in my lifetime anyway!
Graveyard Book and American Gods are some of my favorite books (except for the end of American Gods). This makes me sad. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. This is tough.
My personal disappointment was that I had been looking for a used copy of American Gods for years. I was going on a camping trip and there was a huge used book store on the way and I finally found a copy and was so excited. Jump forward three days to when I had internet again and it was exactly when the allegations were starting to be addressed by creators on RUclips. The book has just sat in a bag ever since, I don’t really desire to read it right now. I’ve had my HP books since childhood and they’re currently all turned pages out so I can’t see the covers and being used to hold up a shelf since I don’t think I can get rid of them, there’s a lot of good personal memories attached to them. If I had the space they’d probably be boxed away but I don’t. I was a huge fan though and I had so much HP stuff and it was such a huge part of my life it really was hard to get it all out of my life. A couple years out I don’t find enjoyment in it anymore, I certainly won’t and haven’t continued to financially support her, but I can admit it was hard to erase 2+ decades worth of being a fan from my life, especially when some of it was my own artwork. I personally can’t separate her from her art, she’s too vocal, actively too hurtful and destructive, and a lot of people have been pointing out how her views are in her work and I can’t look past that as an adult. I almost feel icky in admitting it was hard but I view it now as kind of going through a bad breakup, you know now the person is trash but you still had some good times and memories with them and there’s a bit of a grieving period for what was but there’s absolutely no way that you want them to be a part of your future anymore so you move on.
Both Harry Potter and the Sandman series represent a time in my life that was hard, and they both got me through so much heartbreak and continue to influence me in how I act and the standards I hold myself to. That does not mean I will continue to support them, and in fact, it would be against the standards that the I hold myself to if I continue to support them. Letting go hurts, but it's also freeing.
I find it very easy to just cut gross celebs out of my universe because when they have done gross things, I can’t enjoy their work. This holds true even when they haven’t necessarily been found guilty (rich white man vibes) because typically there isn’t smoke without fire. I can’t, for example, watch films with Kevin Spacey in them, even though he used to be one of my favourite actors. So it’s not hard for me to distance myself from their work… that’s what I’m trying to say. But I do have very specific rage for anyone who still supports Rowling 🤮
"It may help to understand human affairs to be clear that most of the great triumphs and tragedies of history are caused, not by people being fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, but by being fundamentally people." - Good Omens Women are people too, no matter how much some would like to deny it.
I made the unfortunate decision to wait until I had collected all of Neil Gaiman's Sandman until I started reading. I have been procrastinating doing so and now I'm not sure I have the desire to get around to reading them one day. I'm not even a huge Gaiman fan and it's still a sad thing to see all this art people connected with being tarnished. But, like you say, there's way too much great stuff made by great people to get down about it.
This was a very well done video (not that you need my validation). I struggle with this constantly because of JKR. I was devastated when she came out as transphobic, though I sat in retrospect and wondered if I should have seen it coming. I had so many good memories surrounding those books - a very good friend throughout high school and college was a huge HP nerd, as was I, and that was how we bonded. He's gay and found so much comfort in the books because of the idea that a bunch of misfits could be the heroes. I haven't spoken to him in years, so I don't know how he feels about the transphobia, if he's as devastated as I am. Many of my friends today are trans and are divided on her - some are able to say "my art now, b*tch" and successfully separate art from artist, while others find the whole thing abhorrent and can't. I personally can't, and it breaks my heart every time I think about it because I hate that she's tainted my memories. But I made the decision not to buy her material or anything that could give her royalties. I haven't had the heart to put everything away because of all the positive memories, but it's a sad reminder. All this to say, I agree with your assessment, and I can relate to what you're going through - and, I don't know if anyone has said this, but I'm sorry that you're having to deal with these feelings now too. It sucks that anyone is presented with this sort of dilemma where their positive memories are stained.
I've also been a huge fan of Gaiman for yeeeears, his books were so dear to me. I am beyond disappointed. Honestly, I'm scared to call myself a 'fan' of anyone anymore because these very successful people keep turning up to be awful human beings... My NG books are also going away in a box next to hp so I don't have to look at them. Thank you for making this video!
Neil has disappeared from all engagements. As an author who occasionally was scheduled at the same venues, I noticed his absence but never guessed what might have been behind his disappearance.
Innocent until proven guilty is for potentially punishing someone. If we have doubts about whether someone is safe around ourselves or others, we should definitely not wait and see until we're 100% certain. Bad people thrive on doubt. Better wrong than harmed. Keep your distance, and warn others about your suspicions. If we are not directly impacted, I think a middle ground is the best approach. I'm not going to condemn him right away, but I'm also not going to support him until everything has been sorted out. With regards to him, I'm going to wait and see. With regards to the victims, however, I want to express my unequivocal support. Not just for these victims, but for all victims. Because victims need to hear that they are believed. That they will be believed. That they deserve to be believed.
I was a fan of his books, too 😢 The one and only signing I went to put me off 1) the worship going on was jawdropping, people giving him gifts, a young woman (late teens) ahead of me in the signing line left him some artwork she'd made. 2) i met him, got my book signed and then asked my friend if she thought he wasn't a bit lechy toward the previous woman. When the allegations came out I remembered that night. I did get a weird vibe in person. Not from a distance though, initially when he was on stage he simply seemed just a great orator/storyteller.
My suggestion is to not have heroes unless you know them personally-- and even then be realistic. Then disappointment isn't so brutal. The world is filled with talented monsters.
Well I still like Harry Potter and and I'm curious about Gaiman's writing. But in these cases the good compromise would be to either pirate the stuff or buy the books used (so no money goes to the author). It's still an acceptable level of immortality to enjoy these works without supporting the author.
An interesting topic to be sure about the separation of artist from their work. But I wonder if that holds up when it comes to other commodities? For example, how does one square the circle of not support JK Rowling becuse of her abusive rhetoric, whilst buying iPhones, fast fashion, even energy (climate change), etc. If we are going to stand on principle and reject an artist’s work due to their wrongdoing, why does that scarcely apply elsewhere? Maybe it gives us a chance to feel righteous whilest deluding ourselves to the brutal oppressive systems we maintain with our daily payments. Amazon buying, meat eating, tax paying…
@@macolof362 The systems are deeply, unfathomly messed up at their roots. We can do our best to get by, the more marginalized among us especially. We can also work to make change at various levels
Personally I believe when anyone does wrong they really should accept it & do their utmost to correct or make amends in however which way they can. And of course never do these things again. That is a human worth giving another chance to.
I agree, I simply can't separate the art from the author and it hurts me that a lot of those people are very famous and such bad people. we need more positive voices, and more understanding and kind voices too
While I think living authors shouldn't be supported financially when they do crappy stuff, dead authors who do similar I believe personally can be enjoyed (especially if it's an author from older times where there were different societal expectations) because there is that lack of financial support and continued harm (unlike a certain wizard author). But a caveat is that those crappy things MUST ALSO be acknowledged when discussing their work. You can read Lovecraft but acknowledge the racism that was in his life and a lot of his work. You can read Ronald Dahl but acknowledge his anti-setism and other crappy stuff he did. I think that distinction is important and helps make media literacy more important and more understandable.
On what to do with his books, I did like you and put MZB's books in a box for like three years, constantly debating what to do with them. I eventually threw them out, despite my horror of books going into the garbage. But I couldn't donate them without feeling the heeby-jeebies. What if someone else went through what I did when *they* found out?
About a year ago I went to an event for NG. He asked what he wanted his legacy to be. His answer: Kindness. I don’t think that’s going to be the case. :(
Man I've been a fan of him since I was a teen too. I remember picking up Neverwhere and falling so hard for his pros. And as a huge good omens fan...the 90 minute movie is like...a punishment to the fans and a slight against Terry. It's so disappointing. So sad. also to clarify!!! Neil Gaiman sucks, and the books I had collected are at a used book store right now. Screw that guy.
I found out a couple months ago and was gutted. I have so many of his books and comics. They are now in my garage until I decide what to do with them. I also don't know what to do with all of his audiobooks. Feels wrong to say now, but I found Neil's voice relaxing and he was great reader. His audiobooks were my go-to's when I was angry, anxious, or sad. Now, after this and the US election, I don't know what to do. This has really been a year of horrible disappointments.
The thing I've found difficult through this is that a lot of the allegations against other celebs, politicians, etc, were people i barely knew and could easily jump on the "support survivors" bandwagon. But with Gaiman's allegations... it feels so much more grey and i didn't want to believe it. And in good consciousness, I don't think I can
It's right of you to consider which symbols you circulate. I say, as long as you do not financially support an unethical artist, and do not spread logos or other forms of symbolic capital, you can enjoy those old stories. Their thematic insights to life and the love you have for the characters within can still exist. As long as you are not contributing to the brand around that artist's name, you are only engaging with the art on a personal level. It just helps to know the artist's personal shortcomings to contextualize potential muck that winds up in their work.
I completely agree with everything you said. Neil Gaiman was one of the authors that really got me back into reading after literature classes in my Dutch high school had spent 6 years sucking all of the joy out of reading for me and Stardust and Coraline are books I have always treasured deeply because I saw something of myself in the protagonists. However, after meeting him a couple of times while he had gone along on tour with his then wife, my idolization started to wane. His behaviour on stage and during meet ands greets - while nothing truly damning happened - gave me the creeps, he had an air of "I am cooler, bigger and better than you and you have to worship me" about him, he felt instinctively dangerous to me, and so somehow these allegations didn't shock me when they came out. I gave my books to a charity shop and have decided that the only way I will consume my two great loves Stardust and Coraline going forward , will be through film because I associate those less with him.
I hadn't heard about the allegations, which is so devastating! I hadn't gotten into his books yet, but I wanted to (before these allegations). It's so hard when people create good art but do bad things. If I ever want to read a book by someone like Rowling (I didn't read the HP series as a kid) then I'd look at other ways to consume it, like libraries, second-hand, or friends giving each other books. But I think there's also a difference between consuming works by these authors, and publically consuming these works. it's a very fine line, and a very terrible one to tread, and I don't think there will ever be a right answer :(. I hope you're doing okay Willow
I'm lucky in that the loss of Neil Gaiman is only mildly disappointing to me, because while I enjoyed his ideas and advice, his actual work never quite spoke to me. The worlds and ideas yes, the execution no. Except for Good Omens. The harder question for me is 'do I watch his Masterclass now? Do I want his advice in me? In my headspace and in my soul? Would it make a difference?' His _advice_ definitely always made sense to me. And I think that's possibly why he was in such a position to do such awful things to people in the first place. Also for the love of the gods they need to just cancel Good Omens season 3. Don't make us watch its corpse shuffle onstage for 90 minutes. Just let it die and keep what we have unchanged. Like, Nobuhiro Watsuki. Can't support him financially, but I can't even enjoy his work, it's tainted. I don't really care if other people do though, so long as they're not giving him money directly imho.
"Life is short and there is so much great art in the world." ❤ Lovely. Thank you.
I'm a big SF reader and I recently made a comment on GR that I ought to give the Altered Carbon series a go and someone who knows I'm trans suggested I google that author--I immediately knew what she was hinting at. So I googled his name with "TERF" and yep. My reply was "Fortunately the world is full of other books and stories." We're not lacking in that department.
Here, here !
Dear fellow readers, please know: You supported someone for being an author who wrote stuff you loved to read. That's why you bought their books, and not because of stuff you did not and could not know. Much love and hugs to you all.
Yes. We bought into the person they pretended to be, not the person we never knew about.
Thank you, that's helpful 😔
While I understand they are currently allegations, the details are very damning. Either one or both of the women (I can’t recall) went to the police within 24 hours. His wife posted on social media that she and Gaiman separated around the same time as the NZ incident. They later divorced. The sickening part is how he projected in public that he was an ally for women’s rights, including to “believe women” about SA. That did not age well to say the least.💔
I'm pretty sure Gaiman confirmed the accounts but just tried to claim they were consensual (which wouldn't help his case if it was even true)
That reminds me of James Franco wearing a Me Too pin at some awards event, just before everything came out about his own awful behaviour.
@@sylph8005 what do you mean it wouldn't help if he didn't sa women
@@windy8544 he was abusive to them outside the sa, even if they consented to sex with him (as he claims - I feel the need to say I don't believe his claims). abuse is still bad even if there is no sa, he would still be an awful person if the only thing he did was abuse women instead of abuse AND sa women.
Gaiman travelled from New Zealand to Scotland during the Covid lockdown when he abruptly separated from his notoriously open-minded wife. At the time, that was difficult to understand. He could afford to have moved to a local hotel or air b&b. He apologised to locals but suffered no penalty. It seems now he was pursued by his guilty conscience. They may just be allegations but who would want to put themselves into the firing line by accusing a multimillionaire who makes his living making up very believable fiction? The public persecution of a relatively rich woman who defended herself from a mega-rich actors legal assault makes it clear what could happen.
I'm a 56 year old woman who grew up listening to her mom's Bill Cosby comedy albums constantly. They got me through a lot of hard times. So I understand feeling horrified when you find out someone you admired is not the good guy you thought they were.
same
These men show one face to the public, but behind closed doors, they show their true face.
In that case, it is like an actor portraying a character.
However, that doesnt help any, because an actor can be so large in personality that you cant imagine the character without them, and i can take this line of thinking to be that a writer is in the words he writes too, even through all the edits and such... even if we write deep pov
I mean whenever that is called assault or not, from comments its clear he is a major creep abusing his power and, reportds seem to confirm he very creepy does take adventage, even young women at a con were warned to not be alone with him ominous. So he definitly did wrong things whatever aou call it.
Ugh that’s revolting!
the fact that he tried to blame his autism for his monstrous acts, really makes me disgusted as an autistic woman. It gross me out so much. how dare he blame it on that as if neurodivergent community isn't already facing horrible sh!ts.
It also shows the misogyny that can exist within the neurodivergent community. Some autistic men will blame their neurodivergence for atrocious behaviour, while autistic women will be ostracized or written off because of their condition without doing anything wrong. It is a horrible double standard and it needs to stop.
I echo your thoughts entirely.
I know, right? I feel like, as an autistic person, I spend most my time with all my people interactions making sure I saw, heard, respected, and didn't void anyone's boundaries. I may struggle with "normal" social queues, but I definitely understand "Yes" and "No" and I easily comprehend that others, just like me, want to be left alone and respected.
He can't just explain away his heinous, disgusting acts against people as "Oops, my autism acted up".
@@fuindes_batwingsI am an autistic person too, and I was talking with my autist friends about this as well, as we ended up unanimously concurring that our lack of ability to read social cues makes us MORE cautious and OVERLY seeking clarification/consent, not less. For me, I don't want to ever unintentionally cause someone upset. Like any person, I have my own boundaries (e.g. sensory touch like shaking hands/hugs from people I don't really know). It is insulting and disgusting for him to attempt to use his diagnosis as a means of explanation. Don't lump our community in your personal crimes, Neil.
I'm autistic and I hadn't known he said that, or that he identifies as autistic (I have long found Gaiman to be pretty gross and creepy as a person so I largely have him and his superfans curated out of my social media). Anyhow, autistic people are by far more likely or be victims of grooming and sexual assault, so it's extremely bad for someone this high profile to make that kind of statement that will no doubt shape allistics' perceptions of us. Such selfishness on his part.
It's so disappointing considering how much he seemingly talked about and respected Ursula K le Guin for her writing, and talked about how she'd 'taught him that women were people too' when he read her books as a child. Maybe he didn't learn enough. But really I think he's just got very good at paying lip service while behind the scenes he's doing the opposite.
Similar to Joss Whedon.
It’s frustrating that people have to learn that “women are people too”. Ever admitting to believing the opposite gives me the ick
Hi WIllow, thanks for this video. I think what feels so heartbreaking about Neil Gaiman is the way he portrayed himself as a champion for women's rights and he always made himself very availble to fans, in person, on tumblr, etc. These traits that made him seem safe and relatable were actually fake and very predatory.
I love your message that there is a practically infinate amount of brilliant literature out there to discover and makes me excited to go out there and find new favs instead.
This is exactly it. I thought he was one of the good ones. And to find out he's actually one of the awful ones is heartbreaking.
@@elizabethgriffith8684 I heard about the tub club thing he had going where young women would post themselves reading his books in the bath and it sounded maybe a bit questionable.
Gaiman, just like Rowling, were my literary idols. I wanted to be like them. My writing was influenced by them, whether I like the fact currently or not. So yeah, I'm sad af that two of my most formative authors are pure sacks of crap.
I'm not buying anything else from his works, old or new. But I think I'll keep my Absolute Sandman books on my shelf for now, at least for a while, if only for the monetary factor.
They were HELLA expensive here in Brazil and I bought them all last year, I have to at least finish reading them before I decide to do something.
What a place to live in, this Earth that we share, huh?
There's something I always find myself saying whenever a beloved writer/actor/whatever turns out to be a shit stain:
All of the memories we have of their works, the personal meanings, the representation, and inspiration they awoke in us, and all the other stuff: that's not the author, that's what WE brought TO the authors work. Books are experienced, and we bring our experiences to them. Things resonate because of who WE are. And regardless of how shitty the author is, all that good stuff comes from us, not them, and it's not tainted by the fact that they unambiguously suck. Sandman, for example, was very inspiring for me as a non binary person. One of the first times ever that I'd seen a gender ambiguous character like Desire in media, and then Mason Alexander Park just killed it in the Netflix show. Gaiman can't take that away. I brought that shit.
Even if we never support that author again, nobody can take the good stuff we brought to the work in the past away from us, because WE brought it. I find it helps me to separate that in my head. I hold on to the good experiences I had/brought, and then find someone who isn't a shit stain to read in the future.
I don't think is fair. The reader and fan(dom) experience is important, but artists still deserve credit for the work and thought they put in. The existence of artists who are personally morally wrong/dangerous doesn't negate the role of all artists. I'm not saying we should worship artists as lone Great Men, but antagonism towards artists is often part of larger anti-intellectualism trends that are also dangerous. I know separating art from artist is a flawed conception and I'm not really suggesting it, but what it more comes down to is that one can be immensely talented and a horrific person and acting like one can negate the other in any way is pointless to say the least.
I half agree with that. I personally think a person can be shitty/horrible while still making good art and/or being an inspiration, simply because human beings aren't black and white and can be many things at the same time.
I'm still glad I read Neil Gaiman's books, because it inspired me as a wannabe author, but I won't support him after finding out about this. I still enjoy his work for what it is.
Disassociating after election results with your videos
Same.
Sorry I didn’t make a more positive one!
Exactly what I am here for :(
Same 😢
@@WillowTalksBookssomehow, hearing you talk even about a negative topic is helping to cheer me up haha
Bar Good Omens (which I’ll just pretend Pratchett entirely wrote) I gave my Gaiman books to charity shops recently. I couldn’t face binning them, but at least some good might go to a charity from them going there. However marginally, try and cancel out the harm he’s likely done.
Good Omens is the only one I kept, too.
This is going to sound like a gotcha, but it's a genuine question. If there is some kind of moral fault with owning the books, isn't giving them to charity putting that moral wrong onto poor people? Unless you mean having them would just give bad memories personally.
@ it’s not a perfect solution. I’m not comfortable holding onto the books (plus I’ve got limited space in my flat) but I’m not willing to physically bin them. The only alternative is to give them away in some form. My work has a book exchange system, but I feel like if I donate them to charity, at least a charity can get some modicum of benefit from all this.
There's nothing wrong with owning the books you bought before you knew about who wrote them, but it is reasonable to want to be rid of them because they've been ruined by association in your mind.
There's also nothing wrong, IMO, with buying the books secondhand or checking them out from the library because you're not going money to a bad person.
As far as I'm concerned, it's only ever a problem if you're still buying new works (or new copies of old works) because at that point you're directly supporting a bad person and giving them your money.
But that's just my line. Whatever you can reconcile is your line.
I was so fucking angry about this. I've been a Gaiman fan for years, two decades at least, and his association with Pratchett gave me a lot of comfort because of his lovely stories about him and memories of him. All those tributes to him, with Neil on them, is soul destroying.
But we need to believe victims, we need to believe those women. I hope they can heal now.
Have you read Monsters: A fan's dilemma by Claire Dederer? It discusses the issue we have with enjoying art by problematic figures
I haven’t but that sounds excellent! Thanks!
@@WillowTalksBooks I second that recommendation. It's a really good and nuanced discussion.
Interesting!
Thanks for the recommendation; just grabbed it:)
Is it a book? Can I get it in e book?
I was the biggest NG fan ever, and when I first heard the allegations, I was like 'no...Neil couldn't have done this.' Like he was a personal friend or something. But then I actually bothered to listen to the podcasts...and, as inept as they sometimes are and as much as I dislike Rachel Johnson, they have serious weight behind them. I believe the victims, especially that tearful lady who worked for him at his NY residence. Yes these are still allegations, but Gaiman's voice messages, his (paradoxical) silence since, these women's detailed accounts and Gaiman's NDAs and monies paid to silence them have left me both disgusted and disappointed with the man.
But I'm mainly disappointed with myself; for keeping him on a ridiculously high pedestal for so long. The Sandman and The Graveyard Book are my favourite NG works, and both of these are now sullied...especially when one thinks of 'Calliope' in context of this (and then there's the Nada storyline), and hearing that Gaiman apparently assaulted one lady whilst he was in the process of writing The Graveyard Book. To be honest, his lack of writing anything new in now 11 years, and an increasing sense of smugness I detected about him was already putting me off. But this matter has been the final stake through the heart. As a transwoman myself, I don't want him being associated with us...even if he genuinely supports our community. As someone on the spectrum, I'm furious that he would use autism as an excuse for this behaviour, and as a fan, I disown him...even if I can just about separate some of his most cherished works from the man. Christ, after this, Rowling and today's election results, I'm ready to give up on humanity. Our gods (Gaiman, Rowling or Trump) only remain abusive powermongers when we keep them there. Thanks for this Willow.
To add: I now also think he's a poor man's Clive Barker...who has a much greater imagination, is multi-talented, but is also sadly neglected these days.
There's still a tiny part of me that hopes/wishes that none of this is true, but it sadly doesn't look likely. Sigh.
I absolutely know the feeling - Sandman in particular was a huge influence on me as a teenager. Personally the final nail in the coffin for me was his own words - even if you could discount what the women themselves had to say (and I absolutely do not) the way he himself described his behaviour may portray it in a way which is not criminal but it still describes the actions of an abusive creep - and that's from reading his side of it. When you bring the women's version of events into it on top of that - he's dead to me whether the courts put him away or not at this point.
@@elliewallace6370 ditto. I think he's also used his image of a 'male feminist' and trans supporter, etc, to further hide this behaviour. Much like Joss Whedon too. Even thinking that the writer of Coraline was also forcing female fans/employees into BDSM situations is sickening. I did his masterclass a few years back, and at one point he's telling this story about hornets or something, and how it inspired Coraline. He then talks about how female fans would later come up to him at signings, etc, and thank him for writing the book and how it got them through dark/abusive times...so that again is hugely crushing now. He likes to quote as regards Coraline, 'when you scared of something , but do it anyway, then that's brave'. Well these women were scared of coming forth about him, but they've done it anyway. They're brave in ways he's never been.
@@EmlynBoyle Oh my God I remember that class - I took it several years ago when I got a year's masterclass subscription as a present to myself after drafting my first novel. I remember way back then thinking it was the most useful class I'd ever taken trying to get my writing feet under me (Margaret Atwood's was entertaining but her brain works in too different a way from mine for many of her writing tips to be useful for me). Not so great feeling looking back on it .
@@elliewallace6370same. While it was useful at the time, I could never ever watch it again. I believe Brandon Sanderson has a similar course on RUclips. It’s free, just as useful and isn’t presented by a creep.
the autism comments were insane and made me so angry! I get it
As someone in the BDSM community, when I first heard details of the charges, they had the ring of truth. It's exactly the kind of abuse that's common in the community. And I'm certain Gaiman believed he was doing nothing wrong and that it was all consensual. Because he failed to recognize the power differential (beyond the D/s aspect).
He apparently made remarks like "kiss me as if you mean it" and somesuch, insisting they show him they want what he's doing to them, which to me implies he realized they did NOT want it. His behaviour seems too calculated, manipulative and predatory for me to believe he was just terribly confused.
Rumours have been around for a while.
The guys in Forbidden Planet in Newcastle used to say that if Neil was doing a signing you never left him alone with any female staff members as he was a little...over familiar.
When if comes to problematic artists I'm of the opinion that if they are long dead it's ok, that's why I can still read H.P Lovecraft.
Wow, that’s disgusting!
I generally feel similarly, but with the caveat that they can still do damage, depending on who they are and what they wrote. Yukio Mishima still inspires incel men, for example
@@WillowTalksBooks I get what you're saying but the only caveat there is that good and bad people can draw inspiration from art independently of the author's intent or personal beliefs - I've seen people use To Kill a Mockingbird to promote gaslighting rape victims for example where that really isn't the point or intent of the work at all - I guess the death of the author isn't always that simple even if the author is actually dead.
Lovecraft was a deeply troubled person whose explicit racism is very much a part of that damaged personality. That flaw is worthy of study without diminishing it's terribleness. However he was never accused of being any kind of predator. Making him him a differant case to Gaiman.
@@phillipayriss3608 That's true. I just use Lovecraft as an example of a deeply problematic artist.
Lovecraft's mythos has also been used by so many other writers, often to subvert the very things that he believed in. If you haven't already, check out N.K. Jemisin's "Great Cities" books, a pair of thoroughly Lovecraftian novels by a brilliant Black woman who uses his ideas to utterly smash his ideals! Her use of The White Woman, an eldritch corporate white Karen, as an avatar of cosmic horror attempting to negate all life in every universe, is pure genius.
I agree with everything you said. Maybe this sounds too jaded, but even though I did really like a lot of Gaiman's work, this is a man who has essentially rockstar status in the book world, and is known to be a weird/creepy dude. I don't find any of this surprising. Sad state of things.
Something that I've always wondered...does time have an impact on how we react to works written by awful people? Like, if a living author turns out to be a horrible person we might disown the works, but what about someone who lived 1000 years ago? Does time and culture of origin play a role? Does knowing that the author was a bad person from the start vs falling in love with their works and then finding out have an impact? Does genre/the kind of book matter?
To me it matters if my actions end up putting money in the hands of someone who was criminal/hateful or even worse continuing to commit crimes/hate.
Once the author is literally dead, then enjoy the works without regard to the actions of the author.
So for me, that means no more JKR, Orson Scott Card, Woody Allen. But Michael Jackson, maybe. I am still not sure if the people who enabled his own wrongdoing…and also contributed to his death…might still be profiting from his work.
However, buying used copies or unauthorized work based on an IP might be okay if not used in a way that promotes the IP.
Bad people can produce good things, just like good people can inadvertently produce bad things or even harmful things.
I have a similar issue with Roald Dahl in that I love his books and I do feel like they teach some great things to kids. But Roald Dahl himself, from what I've read, was not a good person. Something that I am trying to work with is that bad people have made good things. My way of moving forward is to buy his books second hand so none of the money goes directly towards whoever runs his affairs now.
I'm writing an essay on "art monsters" and what to do with their art, and decided to start by speaking of my feelings about Marion Zimmer Bradley, whose Mists of Avalon I loved as a teen, and discovered later that she abused her children in horrific way. I still don't know what to do about her, or Neil Gaiman, or any of the others art monsters... but I like exploring these feelings around them
She what?? I’ve never read her but wow, oh my god
@@WillowTalksBooks I remember her. Back in the good old days when I was young I red a lot of her books. Mostly because she was one of the few female fantasy authors translated to my language. I was in my late teens when I stoped reading her because even my naive country bumpkin self felt something was off in her books.
Don't get me wrong she was one of the first authors who had kind of gay representation in her books and thanks to her I knew about menstruation when I got my first period so I wasn't freaked out and didn't think I would die. Which makes thw betrayal I feel with her even worse.
In hindsight there were hints even in her earlier books too but I was not experienced enought to catch it. Later a friend told me about a book were one of the characters were SAd by his father, forgave him and later fought their enemies with him or something. Was just a chat in passing and I was like wtf MZB!?! My friend totaly could told me trash but in that moment my sudden dislike of the books made sense and I never touched them again.
Some time later what happend to her children came to light.
MZB's bestie and writing partner Diana Paxson just got kicked out of tne Troth and had ner clergy status revoked for enabling and covering up SA. Marion's daughter, Moira, wrote a book about the abuse. Both her brothers committed suicide due to the abuse. I disagree with her about many things, but I believe her and the other victims. "The Last Closet: the Dark Side of Avalon."
@@WillowTalksBooks She was a big fantasy-scifi author in the 70s and 80s, I'd say, big name in the community and helped a lot of other writers establish themselves. I knew her from the Avalon books, which my neighbour lent to me when I was 14 or so and I loved her feminist take on the Arthurian myths. Haven't read anything else by her, but finding out about what she did to her children sours the memory of enjoying her books. Same with Neil Gaiman and others, but it's still complicated.
@@leighharwood3886 The way I found about her was through an aunt's post on FB, an article with a title like "Feminist Legend Acused of Horrific Child Abuse", and I clicked because I felt I knew all the Feminist Legends and what sort of lurid lie they had invented about them. It was a very religious website, so I had to corroborate (though I do think that calling MZB a "feminist legend" is a bit of an overstatement). I was flabbergasted.
Dead people are dead, there is no one to hold accountable and I won't give up their books because I found out something about them post mortem. I didn't know them, I didn't know when I read the book, I can't seek their perspective, so I have no reason to boycott a dead person's work.
A person who is alive can be held accountable. I will always love the stories, nothing will change that but I always thought Neil himself was a little... off. I never wanted to meet him but his books got me through some really tough times. Controversial as the sentiment is, no one is just the horrible things they do. Every horrible person is still a person and all the weird mixed up crap that comes with that title. A horrible person can still write a wonderful story.
I own the books and I won't get rid of them. The stories are written and out in the world and have been for decades. They have nothing to do with Neil now and everything to do with MY relationship with them. However, I will no longer support him going forward. I will form no new relationships with his work because those would be colored by the new knowledge I have that he is, at the very least extremely skeezey, if not exactly a predator. I don't have enough information to judge him beyond that. I don't feel guilty for still loving the stories that helped me till now, though. Those were never relationships with the author, anyway, but with the stories and how I felt reading them. Continued support of his work, however, is a choice I choose not to make. If you use your fame as leverage for intimate favors... yeah, you don't get to have it.
Great video. So often people want someone to be the arbitrator for them, but we have to make our own choices informed by morals, perspectives, needs, etc. I enjoy Warhammer 40,000 and I am very aware and critical of the issues with Games Workshop, Black Library, and parts of the community. The works of Dali, Picasso, Lovecraft, Poe, etc. all hold value and meaning to me and I am also aware of their abhorrent views and/ or actions. They're also dead, so that helps.
Making informed decisions and not be reactionary and holding arbitrary hypocritical positions is key. I appreciate the way you approached this ❤
Another thing is, in relation to Gaiman, is that during Covid, when everyone was meant to be sheltering in place, he left New Zealand, and travelled to the Isle of Skye, Scotland. The Scottish police did caution him. So, there does seem to be a high level of entitlement with Gaiman.
He was fleeing his famously open-minded wife and very young child immediately after the "alleged" assaults in their home.
I’ve always been uncomfortable with him since his father was the leading proponent of Scientology in the UK and he never seemed to distance himself from that. This behavior aligns with the bad behavior of high ranking Scientologists. Sounds like he’s the Danny Masterson of literature. Let’s hope that the legal system will sort this out appropriately.
Would you want to be a witness for the prosecution in the trial of a multimillionaire whose profession is believable lies and still has millions of dedicated fans? A recent legal circus made it clear how badly that can turn out.
I understand your deep disappointment. My favorite author used to be Sherman Alexie, an indigenous writer. Sexual allegations against him broke my heart. Years later I'm still troubled.
Oh no, I hadn't heard about Sherman Alexie! Looks like he was another one of the bad ones 😢
Bad people can make good art. I’m trans and like, a lot of the authors on my shelf, now dead, would probably have hated my guts. They enslaved people and murdered and raped, callously. But most of those are old enough that the author is dead.
That’s the distinction to me: it is not a sin to consume art made by a bad person. The only reason I’m going to boycott art is if supporting it lends aid to a materially harmful cause - so I’m not going to buy or promote Rowling books because that money goes directly to hurting trans people. Similarly, I wouldn’t buy or promote a book from an author who was dead but whose publisher was doing harmful stuff. If I buy a copy anyway, I’m going to do so used so the money doesn’t go back to the source, but I’m not going to throw away works I already own just because they were written by a terrible person. Of course if you feel differently that’s your business.
Also: there are SO MANY MORE NAMES than Gaiman’s on the comics. Gaiman’s is the biggest, but the art is at least half of why I like Sandman, and he had nothing to do with that. Even if you are on the side of disposing of authors entirely, what do we do with THAT?
Especially the late great Terry Pratchett.
Both Morpheus and Crowley are clearly self-insert characters for Gaiman. That is what gives me the ick now. I will not be seeing the rump of either show, though I have been fans of both since they first appeared in print.
I think the art is separate to the artist. I can't remove his old works as they are in a way now a small part of me. However, choosing to continue to support future works is something else entirely.
I have the same feelings, but then still, if you think about it - we are only now learning about it, he was apparently doing those awful things when he was creating some of those works :(
@@wiktoriatluvi He was. And that's going to be true for every similar instance, wether it is writers, actors, musicians, you name it. But noone can change the past, you can't unread books or unwatch films. We can only choose what we do with this information tomorrow.
If we talked about all the horrible and dirty things that any artist has done in their life, I think we would end up throwing away half of the world's art and throwing away billions of books from libraries. Today we can learn about these painful cases, and give ourselves the opportunity to judge what to do with their works. Should Neil Gaiman stand trial? ...Of course!!. I stay with what is written, that with his person they do what is right, I stay with the talent that he has left behind when writing stories.
"Innocent until proven guilty" is a constraint on government, not on private citizens, just as government can't abridge free speech, but that doesn't mean a restaurant has to let a bloviator address the customers during dinner, and they have to listen.
Yeah, when there are 1 or 2 accusations, I say, innocent until proven guilty. Once you're talking numerous accusations, I feel comfortable with social consequences.
To a certain degree mob violence should be guarded against, but there's nothing that can be done against the court of public opinion (free speech if it's not hate speech or serious calls for violence). That being said, Gaiman has essentially confessed at this point.
No, "innocent until proven guilty" is not just about the state. It's about not being hasty on trusting someone to condemn someone else.
But the thing a lot of peoples saying "innocent until proven guilty" forget is that it goes both ways.
Accusing someone of lying/defaming when they claim to be victims (and acting on it by, for example, harassing them) is literally considering them to be guilty of lying before it being proven. "Trusting the victims" and helping them to go forward with the judicial process is part of "innocent until proven guilty".
And for personally opinion, while we don't need to follow something as strict as "beyond reasonable doubt" of the justice system, we ought to give time and reflection to not judge peoples purely on what was claimed, and ought to be suspicious of anything that conveniently matches our vision of the world and want to be true without seeing any proof.
(E.g. if you already hate the guts of the accused, don't immediately trust any accusation against them just because it confirms your opinion of them)
@@MoiMagnus1er This is a really good way to look at it. Thank you.
We must all conduct ourselves in alignment with our values and ethics to the best of our knowledge and ability. To me that includes my purchasing decisions because I don't want my small amount of money to go to support people/activities/practices that are counter to my values and ethics. Doing this will always attract trolling, anger and ire from others but I am the one that must be able to look in the mirror each day and be happy with the person I am. I support your take 100%.
I recently got back into reading and have all his books on hold at my library. I adored The Graveyard and cried. Reading Norse Mythology currently. Ugh it all makes me sick. I love his works but this is something else. And this following these election results, I just have this deep pit of disappointment that idk what to do with. 😭
You briefly touched on the conflict between "innocent until proven guilty" and "believe the woman". I watched this play out in a small group I'm part of, where two young women who were relatively new to the group made what initially seemed like credible accusations of inappropriate sexual behavior by an older man who had a long history and was well respected. Long story short, over the course of a few months it became clear that the women were (a) friends and (b) delusional about this matter along with many others. They lost all credibility, and left the group. But the damage was done. The man also mostly withdrew from participation. He was unable to shake off the feeling of betrayal resulting from how quickly we believed the women despite his years of rock-solid reputation with the group.
I didn't know how to thread this needle. I think that 95% of the time believing the women is the right decision. But there's no good way to determine *which* 95%.
Many other writers might turn out to have done horrible things, which we don't know about yet. I don't assume someone is a good person or a bad person because I admire their work. I don't know them personally, so I only make the same assumptions about them as I do about most strangers. The idea of innocent until proven guilty can apply to the fans as well, in that we assume that our favourite authors must be good people, until they prove that they're guilty when something like this comes to light. I won't be getting rid of my copies of Gaiman's work, because I read him due to his skills as an author, not because I like him as a person. However, I respect other people's right to make the same choice for themselves.
Thank you so much for sharing this. Today, I uploaded a re-edit of a video that initially featured Neil Gaiman prominently and no longer does. As I was writing my post explaining my decision, I saw your pop-up video and appreciated what you said.
I have Gaiman (and Rowling) in my book collection. Orson Scott Card, too. But at some point, I made the same decision you made to never spend money on them again. Do I get rid of my Sandman comics? I don't think so. It's a sunk cost fallacy and most of his projects are collaborations with other artists (Terry Pratchett, for one). The only author I've been purposeful about deleting from my collection is Marion Zimmer Bradley, who was a different kind of monster all together.
Gross i just read about MZB, glad I know to avoid her writing...what a monster.
If an author like Rowling openly takes a stand about a topic I deeply disagree with the decision is very clear - I don't support that person in any way. It is way more difficult if we only have accusations. Therefor I totally agree, the best way is to collect as much info as we can and then decide for ourselfs what we feel is right. And I think it also important to not only reflect on what persons we support but also what we consume in daily life (brands). I often feel we are so quick to decide to love or hate a person but we mindlessly consume and support brands that are also morally not at all in line with what we believe.
Well this sucks. Thanks for making the video. I had somehow missed all of this. :/ I'm with you - we all need to figure out how we will react to something like this and live accordingly. I'm really disappointed right now, so quite a few books will be coming off my TBR. Thanks for reminding us also about the enormity of literature to devour. : )
I just assume all artists are problematic in some way. I never liked Potter or read any Gaiman. Maybe I have a good radar? But it wouldn’t shock me to discover my personal favourites were creepy. As a music fan genius seems to go hand in hand with a lot of darkness.
Have you thought about doing a video about authors that scratch an itch that aren’t assholes (instead of Potter try blank, ect. ) I would be all over that.
Thank you for making a video on this, Willow. This has been on my mind a lot because similarly to you, I also got into reading largely through his books and they were some of the things that got me through high school, pretty much. I also made the decision not to engage with his work/support him anymore, but I've noticed there's a part of me that feels oddly... guilty for having enjoyed the books in the first place? So I just need to keep reminding myself that at the time I had no reason NOT to support him but now that I do have one, I'm consciously making the decision not to engage. The circumstances have changed, but so has the way I'm approaching his work. That's the best we can do as his former fans right now.
Another great, thoughtful video Willow!
I never finished HP so never felt many conflicting emotions about JKR being horrible. This whole situation really messed with me though.
I spent a lot of my teen years reading Gaiman's work to get through the tough times bought about by complex traumas. Speaking as a survivor of SA myself, books were (and still are) a safe haven for me, to have a previous favourite author behave in this way towards women and girls feels viscerally wrong to me.
Glad to have channels like yours to recommend more diverse (and hopefully less ethically shitty) authors i should be reading instead.
I’m so gutted by this - Coraline is one of my favourite childhood stories, and I have turned to it for comfort for years. I was just talking about it with a friend yesterday. It sucks how often we are disappointed by people we look up to. I think Gaiman will be joining JK Rowling in my attic until further notice. Thanks for making this video and talking about this, I had no idea about the allegations!
Yeah same. I used to watch and listen/read Harry Potter and Coraline every year… time for them all to be shelved.
I don't get why people conflate "writes well" or "sees this part of reality the way I see it" with "must be a good person", what ideas about morality and/or human behaviour do you have? (general you, not specifically you, though if you want to answer, feel free.) Is it an identity thing where you identify with someone and you can't bear considering that you too are human enough to hurt others either through intent or as a result of self-deception?
@@bramvanduijn8086 this is an interesting question!! I think personally I just assume (maybe naively) that people are generally good. It's not a matter of conflating "writes well" with being a good person - it's just my baseline is assuming that people are good, and it's always disappointing when people I looked up to turn out to be not so great
@@bramvanduijn8086 it is GUTTING to be shaped by a work of art only to find out the artist has done awful things. You just want them to be good. You want everyone to be good.
I see this kind of discussion on reddit: Do you separate the author from their works? I choose not to because it would feel like condoning their actions. I'd had Neil Gaiman on my TBR list for years with some vague intentions to get around to his books. That's on ice.
I usually buy books/CDs etc used, so no more money goes to the artist.
@@mandyschmidt7960 Buying used books makes a lot of sense both economically and environmentally, but that wasn't my point. It's about giving an author my time and the recognition that they deserve it. Just look at Marion Zimmer Bradley and Alice Munro, one of Canada's greats. It's about what acts they committed or were complicit in covering up (often for years) that make or break it.
I like HP Lovecrafts works, he was not the best person.
So do I, but you have to admit that in some of his stories, his racism and idiotic fear of another cultures is prevalent. That all said, I'm also a huge 'Dracula' fan, but the racism in some of Bram Stoker's work makes Lovecraft look like a civil rights champion.
Interesting video. Putting aside the Neil Gaiman cases while they go through court etc; separating the artist and the art is a challenging one.
Many great artists / writers / composers have incredibly problematic elements to them - all the way along the spectrum. Not sure I would never want to listen to Wagner again...for example
Maybe the line in the sand is, as you say, sticking to your principles about who you fund with your purchases today (i.e. people still around who benefit financially from our purchasing decisions)
My best friend is a huge Neil Gaiman fan, she has all of his works and I havent dared to talk to her about this yet and have kinda avoided everything that talkes about him until Im mentally ready for tuat, I dont think she has really seen anything anout this yet, she doesnt really follow stuff like this, and if ahe heard it she probably didnt look too much into it, being scared of what thats gonna mean and I feel so bad for her.
I did really love HP when I was younger and it broke my heart when Rowling showed her true colours but I wasnt nearly as invested in it as she is not his stories, ita gonna be tough on her but I hope shes gonna be okay.
Perhaps introduce your friend to Diane Duane and other potential substitutes that will allow some comfort. Before telling about the news. She will find out eventually.
I saw another booktuber say that those who don't read authors who disagree with their wokeness, or who have done terrible things, are fascists. If you come across this kind of condemnation, I have a thought. I'm definitely not an economist. However, major authors like Gaiman are kind of like brands. Consumers have limited book budgets. They have to choose which authors to support somehow, and opportunity cost is always a factor. Some choose partly based on which authors seem to support their values. If they find out that an author doesn't actually support said values, they may choose to support other authors instead. Just because an author exists, doesn't mean they're entitled to your money. That's just how capitalism works. Now, that doesn't mean you must give up your favorite book, especially one you've already bought. That's your decision. I'm just saying, if you no longer trust the brand, you can take your money elsewhere.
Thank you for this. It's heart breaking when someone you believe is an ally of women, a lover of people being their true selves, are revealed as perpetrators and haters.
The world is a darker, scary place. Thank you for being a light.
I am so torn. On the one hand, I never want to off-handedly deny an accusation of SA. On the other, he has always been a supporter of liberal ideology, and there have been many attacks and accusations from right-wing trolls trying to discredit those voices. I suppose all I can do is wait and hope these allegations are proven false.
I have been aware of this for quite some time and am dismayed that it has barely made the news. I have been a huge NG fan since I was 15, I went to signings and readings and devoured all his work. I was later so excited that he married one of my favourite musicians, Amanda Palmer and they collaborated on music and writing that I adored. Amanda had been giving quite cryptic messages as to what has been going on, I think she must’ve signed an NDA. You only need to listen to her last E.P ‘New Zealand Survival Songs’ particularly ‘Whakanewha’ and ‘The Man Who Ate Too Much’ to get a glimpse into the hell she has been through. My Sandman’s are on the bottom shelf of the bookcase, behind my chair - for now. Thanks for talking about it Willow. Xx
Yes to your conclusion! 🥰 I was a much younger girl when JKR started losing her plot and it really hurt, but now her stuff is in a corner of my house, my soul has since been and continues to be nourished by endless other art out there. Never spending any more money on HP related things is now just an added bonus. More money for indie art and works by marginalised communities woo!
Willow, sadly I envy your ability to choose. As a woman of color I do not always have the choice to disengage from those writers who view me as an adversary. As a writer my foremost reason for reading is the writing itself. I have been made better by reading the best of the worst. "To err is human..." Aren't we all?! ❤
Thank you so much for this thoughtful discussion!
The idea of “death of the author” (or separating the author’s works from the actual person) is something i understand people can do but it’s so hard when buying their books directly helps them... and even more it just feels wrong supporting someone like that. The cupboard trick is a good plan or keeping his books in box, I think you’re right about seeing what happens (in court) but it doesn’t seem good at all O_O
How about not buying these authors'books directly and buying them in second hand or something, in this condition is reading their books okay? :')
@@fatima_hrexactly. I always see it that way in case I happen to like some wort of work by an awful famous person - I'm gonna rip them off by not letting them get my money, so secondhand and other measures it is.
For me this exact feeling was Marion Zimmer Bradley. I read everything she ever wrote through high school and my twenties, and recommended her for twenty years. Ten years or so ago, allegations of her collusion in SA of her children and maybe some foster children? by her husband came out. The most disturbing part for me personally, after reading her daughter's statements, was looking back at some of her works, I could actually see it in the stories. I can't have her books in my house and some of them were my all time favorites.
I cant even begin to express how disappointed I am with this situation. If there was a person I would have never thought this of, that was him. I can't even read anything by him anymore.
Well said, Willow. 💜 A clear and compassionate message that includes healthy boundaries, with neither apathy nor rage. This video was comforting for me today. Cheers.
What bits me how can you be friends with an acctual rape victim and knowing how devastating it was for her go and abuse other women. How?
The danger of putting someone on a pedestal is that they will invariably let you down.
Your voice training is really paying off. I haven't seen your videos for ages, and instantly noticed the difference. Ka pai.
For me, the only “public figures” are politicians and members of the royal family. The rest, are just normal people who happen to have a job that has made them known globally. We can't put them on pedestals and we have to separate the art from the artist. I want to buy some books from JK and Gaiman that I read in digital format years ago, but I don't own. They are going to be second hand books. That way, they don't receive a penny.
I was a huge Harry Potter fan (started reading at 8 and the last book came out when I was around 18, so a lot of my formative years), I have a ton of merchandise and a whole Ravenclaw costume. I completely understand the hurt when an author you love(d) does something like this. At least in my experience, it does get better and I feel better knowing none of my money goes to them. Now I feel glad I kept postponing getting into Neil Gaiman, one less heartache for me.
For me it's other way round, I was a bit to old when Harry Potter came out so I more or less know the franchise but never got round to reading the books and was less bothered by Rowling. Gaiman on the other hand was one of my fauvrite authors so this is really, really hard.
How can you even compare Gaiman and JKR? One has - allegedly - abused women; the other is a victim of abuse herself and has defended women's rights (even establishing a rape crisis centre). I shudder to think, that if Gaiman had declared he was trans, you would be defending his right to shower with teenage girls and no doubt calling any girl who objected a bigot. Wake up.
@ I didn’t compare what they’ve done, I compared the feeling of being let down by someone you looked up to or liked and letting go of books and stories that were a part of you. Maybe the one that needs to wake up is you, seeing the rest of your comment.
I definitely dodged the emotional rollercoaster on this one as someone who has read a few of Gaiman's works and not clicked with them (I feel he's an incredible idea person but fails on execution). For me, this one was painless.
But I grew up as a Harry Potter kid - I was the same age as the main characters as the books came out. I remember the day I saw the first book at a Scholastic book fair, sitting with a car full of my friends and my mom at midnight as we waited outside bookshops for the newest releases. I have the newspaper clipping that announced the movies in a photo album somewhere because I went feral with excitement.
I still have the wonder and joy of my childhood love for the world - she can't take that - but she won't get one more dime from me or one more moment of my engagement. That was the only choice I could make.
And it's sad that she is only one example of dozens of musicians, directors, actors, and writers I have had to toss out of my life but, as you said, there is endless good art. I've chucked so much to the curb by now that it's gotten much easier. And there's so much out there to fill the void. More than I could consume in my lifetime anyway!
Graveyard Book and American Gods are some of my favorite books (except for the end of American Gods). This makes me sad. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. This is tough.
My personal disappointment was that I had been looking for a used copy of American Gods for years. I was going on a camping trip and there was a huge used book store on the way and I finally found a copy and was so excited. Jump forward three days to when I had internet again and it was exactly when the allegations were starting to be addressed by creators on RUclips. The book has just sat in a bag ever since, I don’t really desire to read it right now.
I’ve had my HP books since childhood and they’re currently all turned pages out so I can’t see the covers and being used to hold up a shelf since I don’t think I can get rid of them, there’s a lot of good personal memories attached to them. If I had the space they’d probably be boxed away but I don’t. I was a huge fan though and I had so much HP stuff and it was such a huge part of my life it really was hard to get it all out of my life. A couple years out I don’t find enjoyment in it anymore, I certainly won’t and haven’t continued to financially support her, but I can admit it was hard to erase 2+ decades worth of being a fan from my life, especially when some of it was my own artwork. I personally can’t separate her from her art, she’s too vocal, actively too hurtful and destructive, and a lot of people have been pointing out how her views are in her work and I can’t look past that as an adult. I almost feel icky in admitting it was hard but I view it now as kind of going through a bad breakup, you know now the person is trash but you still had some good times and memories with them and there’s a bit of a grieving period for what was but there’s absolutely no way that you want them to be a part of your future anymore so you move on.
Both Harry Potter and the Sandman series represent a time in my life that was hard, and they both got me through so much heartbreak and continue to influence me in how I act and the standards I hold myself to. That does not mean I will continue to support them, and in fact, it would be against the standards that the I hold myself to if I continue to support them. Letting go hurts, but it's also freeing.
I find it very easy to just cut gross celebs out of my universe because when they have done gross things, I can’t enjoy their work. This holds true even when they haven’t necessarily been found guilty (rich white man vibes) because typically there isn’t smoke without fire. I can’t, for example, watch films with Kevin Spacey in them, even though he used to be one of my favourite actors. So it’s not hard for me to distance myself from their work… that’s what I’m trying to say. But I do have very specific rage for anyone who still supports Rowling 🤮
"It may help to understand human affairs to be clear that most of the great triumphs and tragedies of history are caused, not by people being fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, but by being fundamentally people." - Good Omens
Women are people too, no matter how much some would like to deny it.
I made the unfortunate decision to wait until I had collected all of Neil Gaiman's Sandman until I started reading. I have been procrastinating doing so and now I'm not sure I have the desire to get around to reading them one day. I'm not even a huge Gaiman fan and it's still a sad thing to see all this art people connected with being tarnished. But, like you say, there's way too much great stuff made by great people to get down about it.
I relate a lot to you, Marilyn Manson's music helped me get through my parents abusing me. However, I have to admit he is not a great person.
This was a very well done video (not that you need my validation). I struggle with this constantly because of JKR. I was devastated when she came out as transphobic, though I sat in retrospect and wondered if I should have seen it coming. I had so many good memories surrounding those books - a very good friend throughout high school and college was a huge HP nerd, as was I, and that was how we bonded. He's gay and found so much comfort in the books because of the idea that a bunch of misfits could be the heroes. I haven't spoken to him in years, so I don't know how he feels about the transphobia, if he's as devastated as I am. Many of my friends today are trans and are divided on her - some are able to say "my art now, b*tch" and successfully separate art from artist, while others find the whole thing abhorrent and can't.
I personally can't, and it breaks my heart every time I think about it because I hate that she's tainted my memories. But I made the decision not to buy her material or anything that could give her royalties. I haven't had the heart to put everything away because of all the positive memories, but it's a sad reminder.
All this to say, I agree with your assessment, and I can relate to what you're going through - and, I don't know if anyone has said this, but I'm sorry that you're having to deal with these feelings now too. It sucks that anyone is presented with this sort of dilemma where their positive memories are stained.
I've also been a huge fan of Gaiman for yeeeears, his books were so dear to me. I am beyond disappointed. Honestly, I'm scared to call myself a 'fan' of anyone anymore because these very successful people keep turning up to be awful human beings... My NG books are also going away in a box next to hp so I don't have to look at them.
Thank you for making this video!
Gaiman managed to speedrun losing my respect faster and more efficiently than Whedon did.
Neil has disappeared from all engagements. As an author who occasionally was scheduled at the same venues, I noticed his absence but never guessed what might have been behind his disappearance.
Innocent until proven guilty is for potentially punishing someone. If we have doubts about whether someone is safe around ourselves or others, we should definitely not wait and see until we're 100% certain. Bad people thrive on doubt. Better wrong than harmed. Keep your distance, and warn others about your suspicions.
If we are not directly impacted, I think a middle ground is the best approach. I'm not going to condemn him right away, but I'm also not going to support him until everything has been sorted out. With regards to him, I'm going to wait and see.
With regards to the victims, however, I want to express my unequivocal support. Not just for these victims, but for all victims. Because victims need to hear that they are believed. That they will be believed. That they deserve to be believed.
I was a fan of his books, too 😢
The one and only signing I went to put me off 1) the worship going on was jawdropping, people giving him gifts, a young woman (late teens) ahead of me in the signing line left him some artwork she'd made. 2) i met him, got my book signed and then asked my friend if she thought he wasn't a bit lechy toward the previous woman.
When the allegations came out I remembered that night. I did get a weird vibe in person. Not from a distance though, initially when he was on stage he simply seemed just a great orator/storyteller.
Well said. Let people choose their own opinions.
My suggestion is to not have heroes unless you know them personally-- and even then be realistic. Then disappointment isn't so brutal. The world is filled with talented monsters.
Well I still like Harry Potter and and I'm curious about Gaiman's writing. But in these cases the good compromise would be to either pirate the stuff or buy the books used (so no money goes to the author). It's still an acceptable level of immortality to enjoy these works without supporting the author.
Well this day couldn’t get any worse.
I'm listening to the podcast about him. He's very clearly a cruel man. Dangerous and manipulative.
An interesting topic to be sure about the separation of artist from their work. But I wonder if that holds up when it comes to other commodities? For example, how does one square the circle of not support JK Rowling becuse of her abusive rhetoric, whilst buying iPhones, fast fashion, even energy (climate change), etc. If we are going to stand on principle and reject an artist’s work due to their wrongdoing, why does that scarcely apply elsewhere? Maybe it gives us a chance to feel righteous whilest deluding ourselves to the brutal oppressive systems we maintain with our daily payments. Amazon buying, meat eating, tax paying…
there is no ethical consumption under capitalism so we can only do our best with the resources and power we have
@ are we doing our best though? Or is only our best without sacrificing comfort?
@@macolof362 At the very least, phones are more or less needed for most interactions in modern life, including employment.
@@sylph8005 does that sound acceptable to you?
@@macolof362 The systems are deeply, unfathomly messed up at their roots. We can do our best to get by, the more marginalized among us especially. We can also work to make change at various levels
Personally I believe when anyone does wrong they really should accept it & do their utmost to correct or make amends in however which way they can. And of course never do these things again. That is a human worth giving another chance to.
I agree, I simply can't separate the art from the author and it hurts me that a lot of those people are very famous and such bad people. we need more positive voices, and more understanding and kind voices too
Glad to see they weren't able to bury this like everyone tired to do when it was first released. I thought he would get away with it.
While I think living authors shouldn't be supported financially when they do crappy stuff, dead authors who do similar I believe personally can be enjoyed (especially if it's an author from older times where there were different societal expectations) because there is that lack of financial support and continued harm (unlike a certain wizard author). But a caveat is that those crappy things MUST ALSO be acknowledged when discussing their work. You can read Lovecraft but acknowledge the racism that was in his life and a lot of his work. You can read Ronald Dahl but acknowledge his anti-setism and other crappy stuff he did. I think that distinction is important and helps make media literacy more important and more understandable.
On what to do with his books, I did like you and put MZB's books in a box for like three years, constantly debating what to do with them. I eventually threw them out, despite my horror of books going into the garbage. But I couldn't donate them without feeling the heeby-jeebies. What if someone else went through what I did when *they* found out?
About a year ago I went to an event for NG. He asked what he wanted his legacy to be. His answer: Kindness. I don’t think that’s going to be the case. :(
Man I've been a fan of him since I was a teen too. I remember picking up Neverwhere and falling so hard for his pros. And as a huge good omens fan...the 90 minute movie is like...a punishment to the fans and a slight against Terry. It's so disappointing. So sad.
also to clarify!!! Neil Gaiman sucks, and the books I had collected are at a used book store right now. Screw that guy.
I found out a couple months ago and was gutted. I have so many of his books and comics. They are now in my garage until I decide what to do with them. I also don't know what to do with all of his audiobooks. Feels wrong to say now, but I found Neil's voice relaxing and he was great reader. His audiobooks were my go-to's when I was angry, anxious, or sad. Now, after this and the US election, I don't know what to do. This has really been a year of horrible disappointments.
"For people who might not know" hello, I did not know. I'm so glad I do now, though. Thank you for making this video 🖤
I'm a survivor and I won't and can't support predators and enablers.
The thing I've found difficult through this is that a lot of the allegations against other celebs, politicians, etc, were people i barely knew and could easily jump on the "support survivors" bandwagon. But with Gaiman's allegations... it feels so much more grey and i didn't want to believe it. And in good consciousness, I don't think I can
It's right of you to consider which symbols you circulate. I say, as long as you do not financially support an unethical artist, and do not spread logos or other forms of symbolic capital, you can enjoy those old stories. Their thematic insights to life and the love you have for the characters within can still exist. As long as you are not contributing to the brand around that artist's name, you are only engaging with the art on a personal level. It just helps to know the artist's personal shortcomings to contextualize potential muck that winds up in their work.
Thank you, it's great tip to remember there are so many wonderful authors yet to experience out there.
I completely agree with everything you said. Neil Gaiman was one of the authors that really got me back into reading after literature classes in my Dutch high school had spent 6 years sucking all of the joy out of reading for me and Stardust and Coraline are books I have always treasured deeply because I saw something of myself in the protagonists.
However, after meeting him a couple of times while he had gone along on tour with his then wife, my idolization started to wane. His behaviour on stage and during meet ands greets - while nothing truly damning happened - gave me the creeps, he had an air of "I am cooler, bigger and better than you and you have to worship me" about him, he felt instinctively dangerous to me, and so somehow these allegations didn't shock me when they came out.
I gave my books to a charity shop and have decided that the only way I will consume my two great loves Stardust and Coraline going forward , will be through film because I associate those less with him.
I hadn't heard about the allegations, which is so devastating! I hadn't gotten into his books yet, but I wanted to (before these allegations). It's so hard when people create good art but do bad things. If I ever want to read a book by someone like Rowling (I didn't read the HP series as a kid) then I'd look at other ways to consume it, like libraries, second-hand, or friends giving each other books. But I think there's also a difference between consuming works by these authors, and publically consuming these works. it's a very fine line, and a very terrible one to tread, and I don't think there will ever be a right answer :(. I hope you're doing okay Willow
I'm lucky in that the loss of Neil Gaiman is only mildly disappointing to me, because while I enjoyed his ideas and advice, his actual work never quite spoke to me. The worlds and ideas yes, the execution no. Except for Good Omens.
The harder question for me is 'do I watch his Masterclass now? Do I want his advice in me? In my headspace and in my soul? Would it make a difference?'
His _advice_ definitely always made sense to me. And I think that's possibly why he was in such a position to do such awful things to people in the first place.
Also for the love of the gods they need to just cancel Good Omens season 3. Don't make us watch its corpse shuffle onstage for 90 minutes. Just let it die and keep what we have unchanged.
Like, Nobuhiro Watsuki. Can't support him financially, but I can't even enjoy his work, it's tainted. I don't really care if other people do though, so long as they're not giving him money directly imho.
Yep Australia knows this so well. Not rich and famous but connected to the powerful. Big case bad bad situation.