Funny, i just started re-reading these books recently. Currently on the Mallorean. You 100% nail the issues with these books, although I still enjoy reading them. I remember as a kid reading the books and upon finishing the Mallorean I thought "Hold on, the author just wrote the same set of books twice!"
That is pretty much any sequel series though that is using the same characters and setting. Most of the time they rehash the same plot over again with a few upgrades or changes. The fundamentals of these stories essentially keep the plots pretty simple and the ability to really create another completely different story with the exact same characters somewhat limited. Star wars did the same thing even with a mostly new cast and new directors with the 3 newish trilogy movies. Terry Brooks wrote a ton of the Shannara stories, many of them separate trilogies or sets, with essentially the same stories recycled, just with the previous books main protagonists relatives in the next generation. Buffy the vampire slayer is pretty much a bunch of seasons of her doing basically the same thing over and over again with slightly different demons or monsters, etc.
I have reread the Belgariad and Mallorean every 10-15 years or so. I enjoyed them each and every time. They are a fun read with fun characters. That is all that matters.
I'm not sure it's intentional, but Garion's passivity early on makes sense: he IS a pawn, quite literally in a prophecy. And only when he crosses the entire board (I mean map) does he get promoted to king. Even there, the king is a critical piece on the board but not the most powerful. Garion and the large plans of the prophecy, depend on everyone doing their part.
I think one of the points of the Mallorean is that after the poisonous control of the evil god and his minions is broken then the "evil" lands are beginning to recover and good people are able to do good things.
Yeah, I distinctly remember the heroes meeting at least *some* decent people on their journey into the "evil lands"...Granted, it's been a while, so maybe it'd all read differently to me now, as the opening of this vid claims, but I don't recall it being as bad as all that...
Your point about the monoculture issue does seem to ignore one overt detail: the people in this world were all just people, but then selected by a god and actually went off and lived beside their gods until a relatively recent point in history. We're talking like a few thousand years since their gods stopped living down the road. Is it any wonder that these cultures are extremely close to the ideas these gods modeled? They're basically all priests to a certain extent.
Yeah it was my sticking point with some of the reworking in D&D. Like their religions can actually deliver miracles on command...and the sword when needed. So there will be a strong tendency towards dogmatic cultures, because most people can't be bothered to resist intensive effort to shape their societies and your rebellious counter cultural types...either need healing at some point or get the mace to the face. But even then, monolithically "good" or "evil" societies or species hadn't been a thing since like the early 80's so IDK what the changes were intended to address. That said, there are some definite issues with the overall geographic "layout" of Edding's major works.
The dialogue in these is still sone of the best in the genre. Snappy, witty, and clear voices for everyone. I'd quibble about the point of the characters being one dimensional but i get why you say that. I'd still recommend them to read or listen to (I include The Mallorean too) for fantasy fans.
I fondly remember these books. The criminal convictions were news to me, but people aren't perfect, and bad people can make good art. I will say that the constant reference to "the allegations" in the back half of the script is distracting. The crimes aren't alleged: he was convicted. There's no dispute about that, his estate can't sue you for defamation.
Reminds me of how I dealt with Mists of Avalon. The author turned out to be a vile abuser, but I loved their art. Finally, I decided it was like blaming a child for the actions of the parent. If it's not actively glorifying the actions they were convicted of, and are no longer benefitting from royalty sales, it feels a bit more tolerable. It doesn't change the feelings I had while reading the book originally. I'd rather never know anything about creators of art these days. It's safer!
Personally, I don't care for today's grimdark fantasy and I like more "traditional" fantasy, so these books might my cup of tea. The Eddings criminal past is very disturbing. But they did plead guilty and went to prison for their actions, so they were rightly punished for their crimes. On top of that, the couple has passed away a while back, so any purchase of their books or audiobooks aren't benefiting them.
Once upon a time, there was this idea, called justice. This idea suggested that a person could be punished for their crime, and then, having paid their dues, owed nothing more to society. Eddings never struck me as a particularly nice person (based on some of his comments), and it certainly does seem he lied a fair bit about his past. But unless you're thinking about leaving a toddler in his care, why should his past be a concern? He paid his debt.
Grimdark doesn't give me what I want out of fantasy at all, but Eddings' writing is so saccharine that I couldn't get beyond the Belgariad - which I began reading before all of it was published, when I was young and innocent. If you like your tea with 5 sugars, maybe....
Didn’t read the Belegraid but I did read the Elenium/Tamuli. I did enjoy it but I definitely felt that (spoilers) Sparhawk was too old to marry Ehlana. Other than that I wonder what else will hold up.
100% Changed how I viewed/played Paladins. That said, it's Eddings, so it's still basically the same story as the Belgariad with the serial numbers filled off and the Tamuli was exactly the same story with a geography shift per formula lol
@@weaselwolf To be fair, the Elenium is the most off-formula of Eddings' six versions of the same story (Belgariad, Malloreon, Elenium, Tamuli, Althalus and Dreamers).
I don't suppose you can recommend something of the _opposite_ of that? I'm weary of how serious and grim fantasy has gotten in modern times - I want high adventure with idealistic heroes and humor and stuff, and I've been considering rereading the Belgarion books just because I can't find anything new along those lines.
I think your description of the Belgariad as a "gateway" drug to fantasy is very apt. I randomly picked up the book at my high school library back when I was a freshman or sophomore and I was instantly hooked. The Malloreon kind of ruined the series for me, since at the time, I felt it was rather repetitive of the original series and I felt that there was little character development. Also after a while I discovered other super talented fantasy, horror and sci fi authors (Dan Simmons, Robert Jordan, etc) that made this series seem childish in comparison. With all that said, I'm still grateful to this series for getting me into the speculative fiction band wagon.
I remember this series and enjoyed them. My favorite was Katherine Kurtz’ Deryni stories. But the Belgariad was definitely among my go to books to read back then.
Gotta be honest, all the criticisms you listed of the book are barely even criticisms. Ive got no problem with sexism, racism, or genocide in books based in a setting where all of those things were commonplace. All criticism of women being not current day femenists is also a weak critique
The Rivan Codex ruined Eddings for me. He explained his formula for writing fantasy stories. After that in all his books I could see his pattern and he ALWAYS followed the same pattern. And he called Tolkien a hack writer……
His worldbuilding is terrible too imo. A cardboard world with no depth at all. Just like his characters. He's terry Goodkind without the Objectivism, the BDSM and S.A. Sparhawk was an interesting character but in those books I feel like he was trying too hard.
I never read the Rivan Codex, but did read all of his major fantasy series, and the cookie cutter template is super obvious. It still works for a lot of them, but not for the Dreamers series (or is it called The Younger Gods), that series was wasted potential and the ending of the last book literally made everything that happened before it in the previous three and half books completely irrelevant.
This series is great. I read the first book (recommended by a friend) many moons ago whilst I was in high school. Fast forward three decades, and I finally tracked down the series in its entirety and read it. I'm so glad that I did, as this was a refreshing tale of good and evil written in a manner that can be easily followed and greatly enjoyed.
All four of his series are some of my favorite books. I love them don't really care for letting real world issues as a reason to not love them. If we do that with all our works of literature, art, and music we'll always find reasons to discard all of it.
I always wondered why no one ever talks about the Belgariad. Haven't read it in years. Never knew about Eddings history. I like using names from the saga for characters in games and such because they're burned into my brain lol.
The Malloreon is the sequel and better because it elevates the character dynamics and went beyond the basic pseudo-Tolkien plot. The other stuff doesn’t change.
Never got into the Belgariad. I was an avid Elenium reader as a teen, and it still has strong emotional moments for me: Kalten, Flute. And some great gags - Ulath's technique for task sharing, the undead guardians of Azash's temple. But even as a teen, Ehlana's obsession with Sparhawk, some level of misogyny, the racialised descriptions of people (Styrics included) and the hypermature child characters bothered me somewhat. It's a more challenging reread as an adult.
I reread it a while ago, and there's literally a line in (I think) the first book where Sephrenia describes a specific way of thinking, and explains "it's a racial trait". I reeled back a bit when I got to that line. I still think the undead guardians and their lousy programming is hilarious, and the chemistry between Sparhawk and Kalten is fantastic - the "two bros, chillin' on a secret quest, five feet apart 'cause they're not gay!" energy is palpable. Plus the two mafia bosses (Stragen and Platime) were excellent. The romance was fuckin' weird though. I've never liked the whole "one person knew the other when they were a child, and now they're an item" trope.
@@18Hongo Yeah, so many contrasting great (some clever worldbuilding ideas and twists) and creepy things (Elhana and Sparhawk, Danae wanting to marry Talen). The "racial trait" thing is brushed away by Eddings as worldbuilding (worshippers get to think/behave like their chosen gods, hence Annias's increasing loss of subtlety and smarts over the course of the books) but it's such a slippery slope...
@markwinnington1426 Yeah... I know it was a different time, but the language really doesn't hit the ear right these days, does it? If I remember correctly, Talen was 10 and Flute was 4, so there was an opportunity to play that off as a little girl playing, but then Flute was also a goddess, and thus ancient and immortal, and Eddings managed to take the worst possible route with it.
I miss fantasy stories being allowed to be black and white good vs evil. I enjoyed these stories but acknowledge yes the comedic quirks in conversations could be tiring be the last book.
Everything about the series is 100% true and accurate. As a 14 yo reader, the simplicity of story, characte, and setting we ideal for one of my first delving into fantasy literature, preceeded only by Piers Anthony's Xanth novel Cadtle Roogna. I LOVED it! I had NO idea about the abuse of the kids. I attended Western Oregon State College 1991 - 1995. I mention this because the head of the English department was... Dennis Eddings, David's brother. He was VERY vocal that, "David is a HACK!" Lol. All I can say is, as a hopeful writer and role player, it does have a special place in my heart, especially from the first few chapters in the Pawn of Prophecy. Reading those chapters were like watching an animated movie in my head. Indeed, all of my memories and thoughts of the multiple series are in that same "animation" style.it had influenced me in so many ways it's pretty awesome. But problem become... problematic, and I don't like that very pleasant.
To me the Belgariad is literally the most generic of Fantasy (and I mean that in a good way)! ilIt uses all the stereotypes of fantasy and does them very well. It tries to be timeless, which is nearly pulls off, which is why the issue with it really seem so glaring.
The lack of games is the part that hurts the most IMO. There's lots of fantasy literature I first discovered because of games. Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance I would never have cared about without SSI's Gold Box games, Wheel of Game I only attempted because of the first person shooter, Raymond Feist came to my attention because of Betrayal at Krondor.... heck even Lord of the Rings I first heard of via an obscure computer game called War in Middle-earth.
Magician's Gambit was the first novel i read as a kid. stole it off my mom's bedroom shelf. it was the summer break after first grade i think and i was obsessed with X-Men on Saturday mornings. I thought the book was about that Gambit. i remember being super confused and finally having to ask my mom why they were talking about things that didn't happen yet. she got me Pawn of Prophecy off the same shelf in her room and i went through the whole series. i ended up liking The Elenium more than The Belgaraid though. i haven't revisited those books since elementary school though. not sure i want to. too many fond memories have been ruined by revisiting them over the years.
We named our daughter after a character in Dragon Lance 🎉 she's grown now and has never gotten around to reading the series, but she loves books and loves her name so I take it as a win ❤️
I was introduced to the Belgariad when I was 16. I worked at B. Dalton and had been reading scifi and fantasy for many years. I’d read Dune, some Tolkien, McCaffrey,Asimov, Heinlein, Bradbury etc. I was going on my lunch break and said to my manager “Hey just read Shannara, you got any suggestions?” He handed me Pawn of Prophecy and I was hooked. I blew through the first 4 then only had to wait a few months for Enchanter’s Endgame. I did see some of the problems even then, particularly how women are treated. But looking back 51 years I can see how difficult it was to see some of it since that was the climate of the time. Also I was living in Alabama at the time. Just yesterday I was tutoring my 16 yr old nephew on the Civil War, particularly Native American involvement. He just doesn’t understand and I find it hard to explain why there was such racial hatred then. I finally told him that is one of his generation’s strengths. I grew out of my upbringing after I went out into the wider world, but having lived it, it is difficult to reconcile. I did not find out about the Eddings’ past until long after I’d read most of their books. I was actually thrilled to see Leigh added as an author later as I had started actively seeking out women writer’s of fantasy & scifi in my teens. I revisit The Belgariad and Mallorean about once a decade. As the series was coming out I can now see that it seemed to coincide with times in my life I most needed comfort reads. Belgariad while I was tackling my first real job and finishing high school. The Mallorean while in the Army and stationed in Korea, far from home. The 3 additional books as I’m navigating college, marriage and adulting (still haven’t got the hang of adulting). They were easy comfortable reads exactly when I needed them. Revisiting them is like snuggling up with a soft warm blanket and a cup of tea. Yes, I struggle with the Eddings past as I do Rowling, Asimov, Orson Scott Card and others. But I’d already read all of them by the time their problems came out so I can’t forget them. I also know the horrible views I was taught and held as a child and teenager, yet by the time I’m leaving the Army at 22 and into college I completely realigned my thinking. I recently told my nephew, “We can’t help how we are raised. We can only try to grow and change as we learn and experience new things.”
Beautiful summary...Wait, what did Asimov do?? I don't think i want to know...I know it's not fashionable or maybe even ethical, but more and more, I find myself invoking "Separating the Art from the Artist", because it seems that Artists are actually only human, therefore very flawed and often messed up; quite probably every artist of the past who is dead and gone said, believed or did something that would get them cancelled today, and frankly, if we can't allow ourselves to be entertained by anyone who is less than Perfect, then we're just going to have to entertain ourselves with shadow puppets or something! Your story shows very well how Life is complex, leads us to strange places and is rarely just "black and white"...I dunno, but thanks for your memories!
Rowling is guilty only of having a sensible take on gender delusions. A man is a man and a women is a women. End of fucking story. It is completely sick how nutcases are trying to cancel her for sticking up for abused women. Biological men absolutely do not belong in women's shelters and anyone who thinks she is wrong is a vile degenerate.
Its young adult fiction. Entry level, where people are making the progression from child to adult. You read a few entry level young adult works and then you move on to fantasy or science fiction with more complex themes. And the only people who don't like tropes are writing pedants. It was written in the 80's, what does every youth interested in a fantasy work know going in - Vikings, Romans, Arthurian England, James Bond & Spies (80's was still cold war adjacent). Immediately young adults are able to grasp your world building so you don't have to go into the sometimes exhaustive detail of Tolkien or Jordan. Honestly a lot of critique seems to revolve around people being very full of themselves and wedded to the idea of modern fiction and writing. I agree it was a rougher early work, and it is stylistically different than lots of current writing, and meant as a more entry level young adult work. Only 1 of those is really a critique. On the plus side, it has a lot of moralistic leanings which are the kinds of things you *want* young readers reading. There are a lot of people who make simple moral choices for goodness, and a lot of understanding of other cultures and ways of life even if many of those depictions are simplistic. Young adults are simplistic, and sometimes you write not only for yourself and your story but for your audience. And on the races - once again it was written post cold war where everyone was very familiar with the Red Scare and fear of communist. Today you think of east vs west and you picture china and racism, but the writing of the time was reflective of the communist block. And yep, the reduction of races to a few tropes and vagaries is a good critique, which later works didn't lean as hard into. But once again, Conan and Red Sonja and other fantasy movies where the popular zeitgeist of the 80's, and I can't describe the Belgeriad as any worse than those depictions.
Gotta say, while Belgareth and others are possibly THE most powerful wizards I've ever read in Fantasy lit...it's really Silk that most impressed me in terms of capabilities! Excepting MAYBE Locke Lamora, he's probably THE Gold Standard of a Fantasy Thief! Then again, I've not read *everything*...Is there any rival to that King of Thieves throne?
As one of the small group of dedicated fans, I am super happy and thankful that no one has tried to do any movies, shows or games. I love the original works. And considering how modern creators are screwing up classic fantasy ( Shannara, Sword of Truth, RoP and Amazon's WoT for example), yeah ... very happy that no one will touch it.
I feel this. There was a time when getting an adaptation was a holy grail, but these days I actually understand Eddings anti-adaptation attitude. To be honest I don't even like what's happened with Middle-earth over the years. Jackson's movies were already a mixed bag but the games based on them feel like fanfiction, and then there's Amazon's Rings of Power...
Not necessarily. Some have sound effects and multiple actors. They're closer to radio dramas. Some are abridged for time. Changing art from one media to another is by definition an adaptation.
Yeah! One of the thumbnail options is, but I thought it captured the same vibe as mr wolf and garian, I'm currently AB testing a couple thumbnail options though! But actually speaking of that I really should cover Magician: Apprentice sometime..
@@exitsexamined I was wondering what was happening the Riftworld image, especially when I saw the 3rd timestamp say this was "the World of Conan"! hehe.
Oh I've been waiting for this one! Even as a teen I found Eddings' world and characters wanting, especially coming to the series after reading Prydain. And his portrayal of women always rubbed me wrong, tbh Ce'nedra was one of my favourite characters *because* she was spoilt, vain, and had a temper! Her arc was one of the best of both series, and her character growth was a breath of fresh air within the narrative. I also really liked Silk, and eventually Velvet.
@@rungus24 I think by and large it is still good. It's aimed at the young adult market, but it's got that high fantasy feel that makes it easily accessible to adults too. The portrayal of female characters in the story is varied, but overall pretty good, I think.
Honestly, as much as I love The Belgariad, the portrayal of women in the series is a consistent (and valid) criticism any time I hear it discussed. I'll certainly give Eddings a point for not just sticking a "Damsel in distress" trope in there, but he definitely could have been a bit less condescending when he wrote Ce'Nedra. I did rather like Lelldorin and Mandorallen; the idea of two enemies-turned-friends who are both devastatingly well-meaning and complete idiots was rather a lot of fun.
My favorite Ce'Nedra moment was when she gave a very good argument (in context, at least) for Boob Armor and why she *needed* it! Always came back to me whenever I'd hear complaints about that on the internet later in life...😅
There's nothing wrong with these books, they're still as good as when they were written. Sounds more like your world view is the issue rather than the books.
One surprising bit of legacy from these books was a (possible) reference in the Netflix fantasy series "The Dragon Prince". There's a teenage enchantress with dark hair who winds up with a white streak in it; her journey is very different to Polgara's, but when I saw the character with her white lock of hair, Pol was the first thing that came to mind.
Nah, the white lock of hair being associated with witches has a really long history. If you dig through pop culture it's associated with a ton of, usually female, often evil, characters. But being modeled on Pol wouldn't be the worst thing.
It’s difficult to take this video seriously when the narrator constantly mispronounces one of the most important character’s name. It’s Polgara, not Polgaria.
There were also the Belgarath and Polgara standalone novels, but by that point the formula was getting VERY repetitive. As in, the books were mostly just rehashes of stories and events already told. The Elenium and Tamuli books were also decent, but the fingerprints of the formula were also evident there. Different enough to be worth a read. And then there was the Legend of Althalus, which has the benefit of wrapping everything up in a single volume and is set it its own unique world and setting.
I read these when I was a kid too. ‘Breezy’ is the word I’d use. Most of the cringier stuff, I think, kind of flies under the radar because of how ‘arch’ the characters and situations are-almost to the point of genre absurdity. In fact, I heard and believed for a long time that the Belgariad was originally written to MOCK other fantasy stories of its type-Garion is a moron, Belgarath is a drunken lecher, with all of the ‘people defined by their culture and heritage’ stuff jacked up to 11.
I feel like the "mockery" interpretation is probably extremely generous to Eddings. I could buy it if any of his other writing displayed an ability to break that mold but I'm not aware of any which does.
@fuzzzone Fair. 'Redemption of Althalus' was terrible. But as I said, that was simply an explanation which made sense at the time, and somewhat connects with statements made in the Rivan Codex.
Been thinking of rereading these books. It's been decades and I recall really liking them, though a lot of this does sound very familiar. Interesting to find a video about the series, it seems rare for anyone to talk about it nowadays.
Yessss!!!!!!! I have been scouring RUclips for a retrospective on the Belgariad since I joined the platform. Exits Explained, you beautiful bastard, you've done it again.
Honestly thanks so much, this series was a bit intimating to tackle because I knew I'd get a lot of backlash because I'd have to talk about all the controversy surrounding the series, anyway it's these type of comments that keep me going, nice to find other people into the same nooks and crannies of fantasy!
@exitsexamined I honestly didn't have any idea about the child abuse thing, which is horrifying. I bought the entire set of the Belgariad and Mallorean some months back in a fit of nostalgia. And they were still a great read, but every so often you pause and go, "damn. That's a pretty messed up/archaic world view."
I was wondering for awhile while no one really talked about it on Booktube, I guess now I know why...Doesn't scare me off, tho, maybe I'll finally reread them after perusing some of that fanart!
@@exitsexamined I don't know if you know ever read the Bartimaeus cycle by Johnathan Stroud. If Good Omens is Gaiman and Sir Terry's legitimate offspring, this is the secret love child of Philip Pullman and Sir Terry: dark socio-political commentary melded with hilarious hijinks by one of the most endearing POV voices I've found in modern fantasy.
Ooooft, you had to really try to get physical abuse charges in 70's We're talking an era where striking with a closed hand - totally fine Belt, rod,cane,switch ect - okay as long as marks faded within a week Not only your parents but teachers/priests/anyone you gave parental authority too could do the same.
The ultimate introduction to fantasy distilled into a book series. These books may be considered lightweight, but I would bet this series got as many into fantasy as Tolkein. A fun breezy read.
@@Mike_W78 This would be my pick! Personally, I felt it was at its best with the second book (Elfstones), tho, and I tapped out a few books after that...
Hmm. Hmm. I have two main comments, of which the second is more important, so let's get the first one out of the way quickly. Comment one: I appreciate that you felt the need to comment on the abuse story. I vehemently disagree with what you actually got across. To put it simply: Eddings and his wife went to prison. That's the end of the story. That doesn't mean you forget - I certainly wouldn't have trusted them to take care of a child - but it does mean you forgive. That's the very foundation of the system of justice, that people can pay for their crimes, and then are entitled to be given a second chance. And I'd argue that actually, Eddings' literary career is a good example that shows such second chances can lead to great things. I really wish you had at least once highlighed the fact that the abuse story should not be an issue because it already had closure back then. I do not like the way you keep coming back to the abuse and expressing understanding for why that tarnishes Eddings in people's eyes. It actually should not tarnish. It should have no relevance. This is not a case of someone abusing children while writing his books, it's a case of someone committing such an act in the past, pleading guilty, receiving a sentence, and then going on to write books in a sort of second life. Mind you, you don't need to know about the abuse story to come to the conclusion that David Eddings probably wasn't a very nice person in any case - I certainly got that impression from his various comments even just in the Rivan Codex - but that doesn't have any bearing on the work. Now that we've got that out of the way, comment two: I do think in discussing something like the Belgariad, you really need to think more about the context in terms of the fantasy genre, and in terms of the author. The Belgariad is very, very clearly an early work for Eddings, and I think the Elenium and Tamuli trilogies are far, far more impressive works, with better and more complex characters (though to be fair: I don't think Eddings ever reaches the heights that Tolkien and a rare few other fantasy authors have achieved). So, the Belgariad is a work where Eddings was learning, and it's just not that accomplished. In the context of the fantasy genre, meanwhile, the Belgariad is a sort of ugly duckling, sitting halfway between traditional Tolkien-style fantasy and the George Martin-styled "gritty" modern fantasy. As Eddings explains in the Rivan Codex, he actually was trying to create a more complex world with more complex and grittier characters than what he had seen in Tolkien and earlier works. He was especially concerned with a stronger focus on female characters and the relations between the sexes. I think it's unfair to say that the Belgariad has aged poorly in this regard. It's fine to acknowledge that it's somewhat basic compared to Martin, Tad Williams, and even compared to Eddings' later works. But if you place it in its historical context, you will find that Eddings actually really pushed the genre forward in this regard, and perhaps could even be argued to pave the way for others (though of course there was Ursula LeGuin). The same applies to races. Yes, Eddings' world somewhat collapses into a bunch of stereotypes, which he only rarely tries to break up. But again, don't look to what we are used to today, but rather look at what else there was in the 1980s. Eddings' world was, at the time, strikingly colourful and varied, and what was novel about it was the amount of effort devoted to painting the different cultures. I'm not actually a great fan of Eddings' Belgariad cycle. I loved his books as a teenager, but whenever I tried to go back to them later, I found myself bouncing off them. It didn't help that Belgarath the Sorcerer wasn't too great, and Polgara was even worse (though I did greatly appreciate the Rivan Codex, because of the insight into the author's worldbuilding). I also rather didn't like the author's arrogance - time and again in the Rivan Codex, you see him basically explaining why his work is ever so much better than Tolkien, when it very clearly is not better. Nonetheless, I'm willing to defend the Belgariad cycle, because it is interesting for what it is - a product of its time, an attempt to break the mold of Tolkien-imitating fantasy, and something that may well have actually encouraged others afterwards to go further down this path. And in the context of the Exits Explained cycle, it comes down to this: the very reason why nothing more happened with the Belgariad, is because there just wasn't any point to it. Works like the Belgariad inevitably have that problem - they seem fresh compared to what came before, but immediately grow stale as soon as something new comes out that pushes further changes. That, of course, is the ultimate irony: that "old turkey" Tolkien wrote will still be floating around long after Eddings' books are forgotten.
Big, huge, fan of these as they arrived in the 80s. Teen me did not spot anything problematic at the time, loved em. Stupidly sold the books for beer money in my early 20s, been busy reacquiring then in the same editions. Missing book 2....
watching current TV shows I would be horrified if there was an attempt to make this. They would surely regender and race a number of characters. So many stories are frowned on or there are attempts to re-write to fit with modern views instead of those of the time they were written, or of the period they portray.
I slogged through the Belgariad many years ago, based on a friend's enthusiastic recommendation, and my God, I thought it was terrible. Every character is a stereotype, every member of a given tribe or ethnicity is that same stereotype, and I couldn't find anything original in it. I got through the trilogy and started on the Mellorian, and it read like the exact same story all over again. I don't think I read anything worse until I picked up Eregon.
23:00: With Eddings dead he doesn't get to call the shots at this point. I guess whoever is in charge of his estate didn't care to hold to those wishes. His brother maybe? Would be kind of ironic if it was those two kids they briefly adopted. Or possibly sweet depending on how that went down. 27:00: Not just allegations. They pled guilty and were sentenced. Now maybe they were framed or something, I haven't looked into it, but I don't think allegations is the right word.
I really wanna involve spoilers, but that's against the rules. But I CAN give my two favorite quotes ...... 'Does bouncing count?' And, elsewhere..... 'You left his foot sticking out.' Hrm..... it occurs that both lines were uttered by Silk
Aaaah the first bookseries i ever re-read as a young teen (3-5isch years later) and alot of your remarks hit me even then. But boy oh boy did i like it the first time. Oh and this was the first of your vids i ever was recomendes sure hope the rest are as good
There are plenty of high fantasy stories out there to fill the void. Those grimdark stories are just one of many dark fantasy stories where good and evil aren't easily defined and good doesn't always win. I enjoy both. I can see why people who want to escape into a fantasy world don't want to read stories that are more similar to real life, where people are shades of gray and good and evil aren't protagonists and antagonists looking to save/destroy the day. I love both. Many of these darker fantasy stories like a song of ice and fire and Steven Erickson's books, Karen mills works, brent weeks works,etc are very well written and extremely compelling because of the gritty realism involved.
Ooh, what timing. I've had this series sitting on my shelf unread for the last 25ish years and the other day I was looking at it and thinking, I remember I liked this in grade school, I wonder if I should give it a reread? edit: Was completely unaware of their crimes until this vid.
There's always Malazan. That's harder than wheel of time. Took me 6 attempts to get through book one, and glad for it. Trying book two now with similar results. Every sentence or description is important and such it is hard if I loose focus :x. The POV writing is interesting in that, if the POV character doesn't know, then neither do you and no one explains it.
100% agree actually, I thought the Rivan Codex and especially Eddings notes in it about why he made certain decisions and reviisons were extremely interesting
After hearing my uncles talk about the Belgariad I finally read it last year. It was simple, but fun. I moved on to the Mallorean and was quite disappointed. After a strong start it fell off around the 3rd book and never recovered. I think that was when he started writing the Elenium and all his passion went there. I went into the prequels a bit skeptically but he regained his form and they were alright. I haven’t yet read the Elenium or anything else by Eddings yet. Would be interested to hear how his other stuff compares.
Such a great video! Thank you for this deep dive into The Belgariad. I already knew about the child abuse convictions but by the time I learned about it this series had already been my comfort read for years. Yes it's basic but that was part of its charm. For context I'm currently reading Words of Radiance by Brandon Sanderson which is anything BUT basic! Lol
Etr...i first read this in my 30s and loved every page of it. The one problem i had with this series was its predictability. There was never a sense of danger (for the characters' lives) or urgency. It was more like people on a field trip. But it was highly enjoyable. I've actually read the entire series several times over.
Not to say kids can't enjoy things that are more nuanced, but I read these in ... 6th grade, maybe? 1987. And i think the Belgariad's straight ahead nature made it very accessible. I mean, i know that i missed a whole lot the first time i read the Stephen Donaldson books (also in sixth grade). EDIT: Ugh. As someone who read this stuff in middle school and early high school (I loved the Elenium too) and is looking at these books specifically as opportunities to share my childhood love with a daughter who is approaching that age and reading ability, it was really heartbreaking to learn about those lawsuits. I was really looking forward to reading these with her - but hey, It's not like they're is a lack of other options.
a problem with an analysis like this is that it's viewing sex and race issues through a modern lens. WHY WOULD A MEDIEVAL SOCIETY VIEW THE WORLD THROUGH A MODERN LENS?!? do you think real medieval peasants would have thought much differently than as portrayed by eddings? are the views presented an extension of eddings himself or are they an attempt at extrapolating the worldview of people living in this setting? imagine a story set in real medieval england. if the characters are not explicitly and constantly racist and sexist as ue would consider it, it would be inaccurate. it actually bugs the shit out of me when period pieces have radically revisionist morals and attitudes that DISTORT what it was actually like to appease modern sensibilities. screw that. portrayals ought to be authentic and damn our morality.
It's a good point but have you read the belgariad? I'm not saying that the books should fundamentally change the society of the series and remove it from a historical setting and what that would look like. The problem is that the way he writes woman perspective (and many other characters) is incredibly one dimensional. It's just leaves a bad taste and if you give the series a reread I think you'll really quickly see what I mean! Also fantasy is a different world with different rules, Polgara is one of the most powerful people in this universe! But love discussion in any form and thanks for watching the vid!
A work of fantasy set in a fictional setting is not historical, so there can be no historical accuracy. This is not a story set it real medieval England, so there is no need for the characters to adhere to historically accurate actions and beliefs of that place during that time. Furthermore, it seems that you're suggesting that the _characters_ should be sexist and racist in order to be believable, but what's problematic here is the sexism and racism of the _writer_ in their portrayal of the world and the characters. I actually agree with you that it's frustrating when period pieces ignore actual problematic issues by pretending they weren't there. But I don't think works of fantasy in fictional settings count as period pieces.
Progressive moralizing is annoying. Seems the world is coming around to that realization as well. Also, the people claiming that 'because dragons are in it, it doesn't need to be realistic' are either intentionally missing the point, or not getting it. Game of Thrones had dragons of it, but it was very grounded and realistic for a fantasy setting. Shrek, also a fantasy setting with dragons and fantasy-stuff, is not realistic or grounded. There's degrees of 'realism' in a setting.
Before watching this video I will say. This aged poorly because all the best ideas were taken and used a thousand times by other books and all the bad ideas are that much more prominent.
Sigh... you do realise not all books need to be realistic right ? Some books can be driven by (religious) symbolism and themes and be about virtue and morality. Basically you want all fantasy to read like some science paper or history book , or some fantasy reality show where your a fly on the wall.
Loving these. Wondering if you knew the Deverry cycle books by Katherine Kerr, not sure if they are quite on the level of popularity of some of these series though.
Assuming there WAS an live action adaptation...Who should be in it? Who should be Belgareth, Silk, Polgara, etc? Let's cast this thing! 😁 (Also, who should direct, score and do all the other things? Movie or series, and on which network?)
I read the first two volumes two years ago, and I hated Garion and Polgara so much that I did not read more. I might have liked the series more as a child (same applies to _Memory, Sorrow, & Thorne_ by Tad Williams). But anyway, Eddings's children could absolutely ignore their horrible father's wishes, sell the adaption rights, and give the buyers a permission to re-interpret the stories however they want. Making the adaptations a payback for the abuse might be a selling point.
I like the Belgariad but even as a kid I noticed the mish mash of real world cultures that did not exist in the same timeline. I kinda imagined walking through the back stage of a 30's Hollywood film studio between different productions: Here be Robinhood land, up there the Vikings. Oh look it's the Knights of the Round Table fighting the Roman legions, and so on. Didn't ruin it for me though. Still fun.
Goodness, I haven’t thought of the Belgariad in years!! 😅 I read the series as a kid (10/11 years old) in the 90’s and I remember I really loved it! I especially loved Polgara. I kind of feel like I should re-read them but then again maybe I should just leave them in my childhood memories 😝 (maybe I loved it so much as a kid because it was relatively simply written and easy to understand? 🤔) I read a lot of fantasy books in the 90’s and a lot used the same tropes.
3:03 I just subbed probably 2-3 minutes ago and I’m already going to unsub. The word “racism” is exclusively used these days on things that aren’t racist in any way and I’m sick of it
No. It's not "exclusively" used for things that aren't racist. Very obviously not. Some people go too far, but uh... that didn't happen in a good essay where one of the points is that an old author wrote simplistic bio-essentialism and that made for bad writing. Stop being an a-hole, start caring about other people, and learn how to think with nuance and humility.
@@hawkname1234Yeah, it really is. In the past 5-6 years, every time I’ve seen it thrown at a person, they turned out to not be racist. Most of the time, the weirdos screaming about racism are racist themselves. Example: Twitter claiming orcs are supposed to be black people because they’re dumb and violent, Twitter users comparing minorities to bugs and robots when Helldivers got big, etc. I JUST saw some weirdo today claiming women in video games these days aren’t ugly, they’re just non-white… He didn’t even realize he just called all non-white women ugly. Oh, so I’m an a-hole because I don’t like being called dumb and violent or being dehumanized? Congrats, you are exactly why I roll my eyes at the mere mention of the word. Do yourself a favor and follow your own advice at the end there, please and thank you
@@hawkname1234 Yes, it is. Most of the time, the people throwing it around are perfect examples of it. Example: Twitter claiming black people are orcs because orcs are dumb and violent, Twitter comparing us and other ethnicities to bugs and robots when Helldivers was big, etc. I don’t really appreciate being dehumanized and told I’m dumb and violent. I also don’t appreciate being called an a-hole for speaking out against it. You really should read that last sentence of yours again and start living it yourself
The Belgariad was something I read in my early twenties. One thing I found jarring my mind was that the world was "made" for the story. Not the other way around. That things where too simple. You had an "heroic" knight society, a farmer society, a horse-based society, an "imperial" society but they all felt like they were manufactured to serve the story, not as a country that has grown, evolved and was going to exist long after the story ended. They had no agency of their own, but to serve the story. While this was maybe interesting for the moment, it left you kind of strange afterwards. Compare it to the writing of for example Robert Jordan or George RR Martin, where the world had evolved long before and was the backdrop, sometimes the frame of the story, but it existed before, exist during and would, in most cases, exist long after the story ended. Each country was the result of the movement of people, cultures etc. Granted Robert Jordans is also a bit single culture-single country storyteller, but on a whole other level.
People seem to fondly remember this series, while conceding it's heavy trope reliance, however I never get too excited to try this one - though I've thrifted the all of the books - and you've made me all the more dubious. I'd much rather revisit Dragonlance or Shannara, or catch up on more timeless, well regarded authors like Tad Williams, Melanie Rawn, Carol Berg, Ursula Le Guin, Patricia Mckillip or so many others. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not sure I'll ever make time for this one, perhaps it's time is past.
I loved this series when I read it in middle school, but I don't think I could do it again without cringing too hard to finish even the first book. Especially considering when I tried Edding's Elenium/Tamuli series in high school, I was already starting to be uncomfortable with far more stuff.
Polgara not 'Polgaria'. The Murgos (the oriental race whose god was the Bad Guy, the Pawn of the Other Prophecy) were not one note. There were some 'good ones' but that too is a bit cringe worthy. There's also the subgroup whose women are property but "it's not the way you're thinking" the author keeps insisting.
I think there is something to be said for separating the author from his work, but I also can understand how it colors peoples opinions of it. It's tricky!
I think there is some minor nobility in refusing to partake in something enjoyable so as to not finance people or companies you think are negative in some way. But, you know, Eddings is dead. We ain’t financing him.
@@89Dienekes Even if he was still alive, this was a crime he already did time for before the series was published, and he wouldn't be adopting children ever again, making it rather different from an Orson Card situation. Maybe people say "that's a toxic person I don't want telling me stories", but I don't think we can be sure on that, much easier to judge the story itself.
A few of my own thoughts: I've long said that Eddings has exactly one female character - presumably based on his wife - at three different ages. So women in his books are either child-Leigh, young-woman-Leigh, mature-Leigh, or cardboard cutout. If memory serves, the Belgariad was written as a trilogy of ~500 page books, but the publisher was only able to publish slimmer books, so got chopped into 5 parts instead. That certainly makes sense of the way individual books don't so much end as stop, though I've not revisited the series to see if there were actual end-points for the three-book division. And, of course, Eddings went on to retell the Belgariad with the same characters shuffled around a bit another four times - the Elenium and Tamuli, the Redemption of Althalus, and the Dreamers - the best version is probably either the Elenium or Althalus. The Dreamers doesn't even try to pretend they're doing anything other than going through the motions four times. The main reason to read Eddings is to watch his group of male characters hang out together doing MCU-style banter. The world-building is broad, but very shallow, and the plot is largely an excuse to visit various carboard sets to provide more varied locations for the bantering. At least that's how I remember it, not having re-read any of them since the Dreamers released almost two decades ago.
Great observations about the banter; I remember being so stoked just to "hang out" with this group again, it was one of the few stories where I didn't even CARE if there was a plot, it was just too much fun being back with them again!😁
Commenting before watching the video: I loved the Belgariad and the Malloreon in my early teens. But already at that age I was looking for deeper or more realistic themes, and was already frustrated with the X-Men tv comic series for having teased that in its first episode, then pulled back after that. A family friend had told me about Tad William's Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn; and once I read that I could never go back to simpler black and white fantasy like Eddings tended to make. Obviously the heavier darker fantasy that I appreciate aren't everyone's cup of tea (though the massive success of ASOIAF suggests there is a large market for it) and I'll admit I'm not even a big fantasy fan, so I'm probably out of step with most readers on this.
Thanks for that. I'm an avid fantasy reader and the Belgariad has been on my list for awhile. The character of an artist does matter. There is plenty else for me to read and I will not be supporting his work.
That's Hettar with the two swords and mohawk leading into ponytail (scalplock, the books call it) that you're zooming in on in the section about Silk. Silk looks nothing like that. Other than that, great video.
Also the Elenium is grosser as far as "problematic" goes, the hero Sparhawk ends up with a girl he's basically raised as a daughter, and of course it's framed as great and her as the main instigator even though she's basically a child. Even reading that as a maybe 13 year old, I never read another of his books. Grooming's grooming, and I wasn't overly surprised years later to find out they were child abusers.
I've re-read the series every five years or so. They're as enjoyable on the most recent read as they were on the original. I've probably re-read these more than anything else, probably partially due to having come across this series ahead of many others but also because the series is relatively short (although there are 10 books in the Belgariad/Mallorean). I didn't really get into the Ellenium as deeply, but it is fun too. The Eddings were convicted in the 1970s, they served their time and in theory were rehabilitated. That doesn't make what they did right, but it is in the past and not directly related to the series. Both of the Eddings are dead, and the profits for the series goes to literature scholarships at Leeds College, so even if you dislike the authors anything you spend on the books/audible goes to a good cause.
I read these books as a preteen/early teen, and they are pretty good as "baby's first fantasy". Complicated, they are not. All characters and plots are pretty simple, or rather straightforward, as you said. Still like the books, but won't pretend that they are something they are not. Also realizing right now, that the first books are as old as me. Explains a whole deal about this series. It's a fun series, but I wouldn't expect anything extraordinary from them. Even as a kid, I could so easily see the problems with some of his characterizations. Didn't stop me from liking some characters. Never liked the Elenium series though. Couldn't even finish the whole series. The Belgariad and The Malloreon is therefor my favorites of their book series. But then again, I haven't read any more after those I mentioned. I learned about the abuse years after I read the books. They did plead guilty and did their time. Awful people can indeed create good or entertaining art. Just look at Lovecraft.
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Funny, i just started re-reading these books recently. Currently on the Mallorean. You 100% nail the issues with these books, although I still enjoy reading them. I remember as a kid reading the books and upon finishing the Mallorean I thought "Hold on, the author just wrote the same set of books twice!"
That is pretty much any sequel series though that is using the same characters and setting. Most of the time they rehash the same plot over again with a few upgrades or changes. The fundamentals of these stories essentially keep the plots pretty simple and the ability to really create another completely different story with the exact same characters somewhat limited. Star wars did the same thing even with a mostly new cast and new directors with the 3 newish trilogy movies.
Terry Brooks wrote a ton of the Shannara stories, many of them separate trilogies or sets, with essentially the same stories recycled, just with the previous books main protagonists relatives in the next generation.
Buffy the vampire slayer is pretty much a bunch of seasons of her doing basically the same thing over and over again with slightly different demons or monsters, etc.
I have reread the Belgariad and Mallorean every 10-15 years or so. I enjoyed them each and every time. They are a fun read with fun characters. That is all that matters.
I'm with you there.🤓
I'm not sure it's intentional, but Garion's passivity early on makes sense: he IS a pawn, quite literally in a prophecy. And only when he crosses the entire board (I mean map) does he get promoted to king. Even there, the king is a critical piece on the board but not the most powerful. Garion and the large plans of the prophecy, depend on everyone doing their part.
I think one of the points of the Mallorean is that after the poisonous control of the evil god and his minions is broken then the "evil" lands are beginning to recover and good people are able to do good things.
Yeah, I distinctly remember the heroes meeting at least *some* decent people on their journey into the "evil lands"...Granted, it's been a while, so maybe it'd all read differently to me now, as the opening of this vid claims, but I don't recall it being as bad as all that...
@@HandofOmega Most of them, though were either good people from the first series, or were revealed to be secretly western people.
Your point about the monoculture issue does seem to ignore one overt detail: the people in this world were all just people, but then selected by a god and actually went off and lived beside their gods until a relatively recent point in history. We're talking like a few thousand years since their gods stopped living down the road. Is it any wonder that these cultures are extremely close to the ideas these gods modeled? They're basically all priests to a certain extent.
Yeah it was my sticking point with some of the reworking in D&D. Like their religions can actually deliver miracles on command...and the sword when needed. So there will be a strong tendency towards dogmatic cultures, because most people can't be bothered to resist intensive effort to shape their societies and your rebellious counter cultural types...either need healing at some point or get the mace to the face. But even then, monolithically "good" or "evil" societies or species hadn't been a thing since like the early 80's so IDK what the changes were intended to address. That said, there are some definite issues with the overall geographic "layout" of Edding's major works.
The dialogue in these is still sone of the best in the genre. Snappy, witty, and clear voices for everyone.
I'd quibble about the point of the characters being one dimensional but i get why you say that.
I'd still recommend them to read or listen to (I include The Mallorean too) for fantasy fans.
I fondly remember these books. The criminal convictions were news to me, but people aren't perfect, and bad people can make good art.
I will say that the constant reference to "the allegations" in the back half of the script is distracting. The crimes aren't alleged: he was convicted. There's no dispute about that, his estate can't sue you for defamation.
Reminds me of how I dealt with Mists of Avalon. The author turned out to be a vile abuser, but I loved their art. Finally, I decided it was like blaming a child for the actions of the parent. If it's not actively glorifying the actions they were convicted of, and are no longer benefitting from royalty sales, it feels a bit more tolerable. It doesn't change the feelings I had while reading the book originally. I'd rather never know anything about creators of art these days. It's safer!
@@araneljonesyups People, Even Artists have problems.
Personally, I don't care for today's grimdark fantasy and I like more "traditional" fantasy, so these books might my cup of tea.
The Eddings criminal past is very disturbing. But they did plead guilty and went to prison for their actions, so they were rightly punished for their crimes. On top of that, the couple has passed away a while back, so any purchase of their books or audiobooks aren't benefiting them.
Once upon a time, there was this idea, called justice. This idea suggested that a person could be punished for their crime, and then, having paid their dues, owed nothing more to society. Eddings never struck me as a particularly nice person (based on some of his comments), and it certainly does seem he lied a fair bit about his past. But unless you're thinking about leaving a toddler in his care, why should his past be a concern? He paid his debt.
Grimdark doesn't give me what I want out of fantasy at all, but Eddings' writing is so saccharine that I couldn't get beyond the Belgariad - which I began reading before all of it was published, when I was young and innocent. If you like your tea with 5 sugars, maybe....
I like the Elenium/Tamuli series better. Sir Sparhawk is a boss
100% the superior series
Didn’t read the Belegraid but I did read the Elenium/Tamuli. I did enjoy it but I definitely felt that (spoilers) Sparhawk was too old to marry Ehlana. Other than that I wonder what else will hold up.
100% Changed how I viewed/played Paladins.
That said, it's Eddings, so it's still basically the same story as the Belgariad with the serial numbers filled off and the Tamuli was exactly the same story with a geography shift per formula lol
@@weaselwolf To be fair, the Elenium is the most off-formula of Eddings' six versions of the same story (Belgariad, Malloreon, Elenium, Tamuli, Althalus and Dreamers).
@@weaselwolfI am sure that any ideas they couldn't use for Belgariad got used in the Elenium. I prefer the 35 year old exiled Paladin cynic.
If you want a grimdark series that's underrated af, try "The Black Company". It's basically military fiction in a fantasy setting.
One of my favorite fantasy series. I've listened to the audiobooks at least once a year.
Sounds really cool, how does it compare to something like warhammer? I put it on the list
@exitsexamined it's better. I ditched the Eddings after I found that he and his wife were locked up for child abuse.
Solid recommendation.
I don't suppose you can recommend something of the _opposite_ of that? I'm weary of how serious and grim fantasy has gotten in modern times - I want high adventure with idealistic heroes and humor and stuff, and I've been considering rereading the Belgarion books just because I can't find anything new along those lines.
I think your description of the Belgariad as a "gateway" drug to fantasy is very apt. I randomly picked up the book at my high school library back when I was a freshman or sophomore and I was instantly hooked. The Malloreon kind of ruined the series for me, since at the time, I felt it was rather repetitive of the original series and I felt that there was little character development. Also after a while I discovered other super talented fantasy, horror and sci fi authors (Dan Simmons, Robert Jordan, etc) that made this series seem childish in comparison. With all that said, I'm still grateful to this series for getting me into the speculative fiction band wagon.
I remember this series and enjoyed them. My favorite was Katherine Kurtz’ Deryni stories. But the Belgariad was definitely among my go to books to read back then.
Gotta be honest, all the criticisms you listed of the book are barely even criticisms. Ive got no problem with sexism, racism, or genocide in books based in a setting where all of those things were commonplace.
All criticism of women being not current day femenists is also a weak critique
agree
Well said.
A better critique would be the characters are pretty one note. (it was addressed but not in-depth)
The guy's a woke-lite moron.
I still love The Belgariad. And read it at least every couple of years.
Nothing wrong with that, it's a nice, comfy read for the most part!
Wokie jackass @@exitsexamined
The Rivan Codex ruined Eddings for me. He explained his formula for writing fantasy stories. After that in all his books I could see his pattern and he ALWAYS followed the same pattern. And he called Tolkien a hack writer……
His worldbuilding is terrible too imo. A cardboard world with no depth at all.
Just like his characters.
He's terry Goodkind without the Objectivism, the BDSM and S.A.
Sparhawk was an interesting character but in those books I feel like he was trying too hard.
I never read the Rivan Codex, but did read all of his major fantasy series, and the cookie cutter template is super obvious. It still works for a lot of them, but not for the Dreamers series (or is it called The Younger Gods), that series was wasted potential and the ending of the last book literally made everything that happened before it in the previous three and half books completely irrelevant.
@ I gave up on Eddings half way through the 2nd Sparhawk trilogy. Even the hero’s didn’t feel the forgettable enemy was much of a threat.
This series is great. I read the first book (recommended by a friend) many moons ago whilst I was in high school. Fast forward three decades, and I finally tracked down the series in its entirety and read it. I'm so glad that I did, as this was a refreshing tale of good and evil written in a manner that can be easily followed and greatly enjoyed.
Her name is not Polgaria there is no I in her name
All four of his series are some of my favorite books. I love them don't really care for letting real world issues as a reason to not love them. If we do that with all our works of literature, art, and music we'll always find reasons to discard all of it.
I always wondered why no one ever talks about the Belgariad. Haven't read it in years. Never knew about Eddings history. I like using names from the saga for characters in games and such because they're burned into my brain lol.
The Malloreon is the sequel and better because it elevates the character dynamics and went beyond the basic pseudo-Tolkien plot. The other stuff doesn’t change.
Never got into the Belgariad. I was an avid Elenium reader as a teen, and it still has strong emotional moments for me: Kalten, Flute. And some great gags - Ulath's technique for task sharing, the undead guardians of Azash's temple.
But even as a teen, Ehlana's obsession with Sparhawk, some level of misogyny, the racialised descriptions of people (Styrics included) and the hypermature child characters bothered me somewhat. It's a more challenging reread as an adult.
I reread it a while ago, and there's literally a line in (I think) the first book where Sephrenia describes a specific way of thinking, and explains "it's a racial trait".
I reeled back a bit when I got to that line.
I still think the undead guardians and their lousy programming is hilarious, and the chemistry between Sparhawk and Kalten is fantastic - the "two bros, chillin' on a secret quest, five feet apart 'cause they're not gay!" energy is palpable. Plus the two mafia bosses (Stragen and Platime) were excellent.
The romance was fuckin' weird though. I've never liked the whole "one person knew the other when they were a child, and now they're an item" trope.
@@18Hongo Yeah, so many contrasting great (some clever worldbuilding ideas and twists) and creepy things (Elhana and Sparhawk, Danae wanting to marry Talen). The "racial trait" thing is brushed away by Eddings as worldbuilding (worshippers get to think/behave like their chosen gods, hence Annias's increasing loss of subtlety and smarts over the course of the books) but it's such a slippery slope...
@markwinnington1426 Yeah... I know it was a different time, but the language really doesn't hit the ear right these days, does it? If I remember correctly, Talen was 10 and Flute was 4, so there was an opportunity to play that off as a little girl playing, but then Flute was also a goddess, and thus ancient and immortal, and Eddings managed to take the worst possible route with it.
I miss fantasy stories being allowed to be black and white good vs evil. I enjoyed these stories but acknowledge yes the comedic quirks in conversations could be tiring be the last book.
read these as a child. My dad had these books
Everything about the series is 100% true and accurate. As a 14 yo reader, the simplicity of story, characte, and setting we ideal for one of my first delving into fantasy literature, preceeded only by Piers Anthony's Xanth novel Cadtle Roogna. I LOVED it!
I had NO idea about the abuse of the kids.
I attended Western Oregon State College 1991 - 1995. I mention this because the head of the English department was... Dennis Eddings, David's brother. He was VERY vocal that, "David is a HACK!" Lol.
All I can say is, as a hopeful writer and role player, it does have a special place in my heart, especially from the first few chapters in the Pawn of Prophecy. Reading those chapters were like watching an animated movie in my head. Indeed, all of my memories and thoughts of the multiple series are in that same "animation" style.it had influenced me in so many ways it's pretty awesome. But problem become... problematic, and I don't like that very pleasant.
To me the Belgariad is literally the most generic of Fantasy (and I mean that in a good way)! ilIt uses all the stereotypes of fantasy and does them very well. It tries to be timeless, which is nearly pulls off, which is why the issue with it really seem so glaring.
80’ years are One of the best decade ever for fantasy for High and dark;)
Bellaria and mallorean are very epics;)
The lack of games is the part that hurts the most IMO. There's lots of fantasy literature I first discovered because of games. Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance I would never have cared about without SSI's Gold Box games, Wheel of Game I only attempted because of the first person shooter, Raymond Feist came to my attention because of Betrayal at Krondor.... heck even Lord of the Rings I first heard of via an obscure computer game called War in Middle-earth.
Magician's Gambit was the first novel i read as a kid. stole it off my mom's bedroom shelf. it was the summer break after first grade i think and i was obsessed with X-Men on Saturday mornings. I thought the book was about that Gambit. i remember being super confused and finally having to ask my mom why they were talking about things that didn't happen yet. she got me Pawn of Prophecy off the same shelf in her room and i went through the whole series.
i ended up liking The Elenium more than The Belgaraid though. i haven't revisited those books since elementary school though. not sure i want to. too many fond memories have been ruined by revisiting them over the years.
Love love love these books. I even named my daughter after one of the characters.
Oh so cool! Which one? I would lose it if I met someone named ce nedra haha
Same here. I’ve read those books at least 7 or 8 times. I absolutely love them.
We named our daughter after a character in Dragon Lance 🎉 she's grown now and has never gotten around to reading the series, but she loves books and loves her name so I take it as a win ❤️
@@exitsexamined Liselle. Thank you for asking. 😊
I was introduced to the Belgariad when I was 16. I worked at B. Dalton and had been reading scifi and fantasy for many years. I’d read Dune, some Tolkien, McCaffrey,Asimov, Heinlein, Bradbury etc. I was going on my lunch break and said to my manager “Hey just read Shannara, you got any suggestions?” He handed me Pawn of Prophecy and I was hooked. I blew through the first 4 then only had to wait a few months for Enchanter’s Endgame. I did see some of the problems even then, particularly how women are treated. But looking back 51 years I can see how difficult it was to see some of it since that was the climate of the time. Also I was living in Alabama at the time. Just yesterday I was tutoring my 16 yr old nephew on the Civil War, particularly Native American involvement. He just doesn’t understand and I find it hard to explain why there was such racial hatred then. I finally told him that is one of his generation’s strengths. I grew out of my upbringing after I went out into the wider world, but having lived it, it is difficult to reconcile. I did not find out about the Eddings’ past until long after I’d read most of their books. I was actually thrilled to see Leigh added as an author later as I had started actively seeking out women writer’s of fantasy & scifi in my teens. I revisit The Belgariad and Mallorean about once a decade. As the series was coming out I can now see that it seemed to coincide with times in my life I most needed comfort reads. Belgariad while I was tackling my first real job and finishing high school. The Mallorean while in the Army and stationed in Korea, far from home. The 3 additional books as I’m navigating college, marriage and adulting (still haven’t got the hang of adulting). They were easy comfortable reads exactly when I needed them. Revisiting them is like snuggling up with a soft warm blanket and a cup of tea. Yes, I struggle with the Eddings past as I do Rowling, Asimov, Orson Scott Card and others. But I’d already read all of them by the time their problems came out so I can’t forget them. I also know the horrible views I was taught and held as a child and teenager, yet by the time I’m leaving the Army at 22 and into college I completely realigned my thinking. I recently told my nephew, “We can’t help how we are raised. We can only try to grow and change as we learn and experience new things.”
Beautiful summary...Wait, what did Asimov do?? I don't think i want to know...I know it's not fashionable or maybe even ethical, but more and more, I find myself invoking "Separating the Art from the Artist", because it seems that Artists are actually only human, therefore very flawed and often messed up; quite probably every artist of the past who is dead and gone said, believed or did something that would get them cancelled today, and frankly, if we can't allow ourselves to be entertained by anyone who is less than Perfect, then we're just going to have to entertain ourselves with shadow puppets or something! Your story shows very well how Life is complex, leads us to strange places and is rarely just "black and white"...I dunno, but thanks for your memories!
Rowling is guilty only of having a sensible take on gender delusions. A man is a man and a women is a women. End of fucking story. It is completely sick how nutcases are trying to cancel her for sticking up for abused women. Biological men absolutely do not belong in women's shelters and anyone who thinks she is wrong is a vile degenerate.
Its young adult fiction. Entry level, where people are making the progression from child to adult. You read a few entry level young adult works and then you move on to fantasy or science fiction with more complex themes. And the only people who don't like tropes are writing pedants. It was written in the 80's, what does every youth interested in a fantasy work know going in - Vikings, Romans, Arthurian England, James Bond & Spies (80's was still cold war adjacent). Immediately young adults are able to grasp your world building so you don't have to go into the sometimes exhaustive detail of Tolkien or Jordan.
Honestly a lot of critique seems to revolve around people being very full of themselves and wedded to the idea of modern fiction and writing. I agree it was a rougher early work, and it is stylistically different than lots of current writing, and meant as a more entry level young adult work. Only 1 of those is really a critique. On the plus side, it has a lot of moralistic leanings which are the kinds of things you *want* young readers reading. There are a lot of people who make simple moral choices for goodness, and a lot of understanding of other cultures and ways of life even if many of those depictions are simplistic. Young adults are simplistic, and sometimes you write not only for yourself and your story but for your audience.
And on the races - once again it was written post cold war where everyone was very familiar with the Red Scare and fear of communist. Today you think of east vs west and you picture china and racism, but the writing of the time was reflective of the communist block. And yep, the reduction of races to a few tropes and vagaries is a good critique, which later works didn't lean as hard into. But once again, Conan and Red Sonja and other fantasy movies where the popular zeitgeist of the 80's, and I can't describe the Belgeriad as any worse than those depictions.
Gotta say, while Belgareth and others are possibly THE most powerful wizards I've ever read in Fantasy lit...it's really Silk that most impressed me in terms of capabilities! Excepting MAYBE Locke Lamora, he's probably THE Gold Standard of a Fantasy Thief! Then again, I've not read *everything*...Is there any rival to that King of Thieves throne?
It's all about The Chronicles of Prydain and Red wall.
As one of the small group of dedicated fans, I am super happy and thankful that no one has tried to do any movies, shows or games. I love the original works. And considering how modern creators are screwing up classic fantasy ( Shannara, Sword of Truth, RoP and Amazon's WoT for example), yeah ... very happy that no one will touch it.
I feel this. There was a time when getting an adaptation was a holy grail, but these days I actually understand Eddings anti-adaptation attitude. To be honest I don't even like what's happened with Middle-earth over the years. Jackson's movies were already a mixed bag but the games based on them feel like fanfiction, and then there's Amazon's Rings of Power...
Look what happened with the Shannara series.......
An audiobook isn't supposed to be an adaptation at all. It is supposed to be just people reading the book.
Not necessarily. Some have sound effects and multiple actors. They're closer to radio dramas. Some are abridged for time. Changing art from one media to another is by definition an adaptation.
@@null6634i enjoy Rrafing and Audiobooks
Thumbnail is from the cover of Magician: Apprentice. Love that book, one of my favorites.
It's a classic!
Deserves its own video!
Yeah! One of the thumbnail options is, but I thought it captured the same vibe as mr wolf and garian, I'm currently AB testing a couple thumbnail options though! But actually speaking of that I really should cover Magician: Apprentice sometime..
@@exitsexamined ah i see. You definitely should it is a great series. Love the videos
@@exitsexamined I was wondering what was happening the Riftworld image, especially when I saw the 3rd timestamp say this was "the World of Conan"! hehe.
Oh I've been waiting for this one! Even as a teen I found Eddings' world and characters wanting, especially coming to the series after reading Prydain. And his portrayal of women always rubbed me wrong, tbh Ce'nedra was one of my favourite characters *because* she was spoilt, vain, and had a temper! Her arc was one of the best of both series, and her character growth was a breath of fresh air within the narrative. I also really liked Silk, and eventually Velvet.
Prydain passed me by somehow. Would you recommend it now? Is it still good?
@@rungus24 I think by and large it is still good. It's aimed at the young adult market, but it's got that high fantasy feel that makes it easily accessible to adults too.
The portrayal of female characters in the story is varied, but overall pretty good, I think.
Honestly, as much as I love The Belgariad, the portrayal of women in the series is a consistent (and valid) criticism any time I hear it discussed.
I'll certainly give Eddings a point for not just sticking a "Damsel in distress" trope in there, but he definitely could have been a bit less condescending when he wrote Ce'Nedra. I did rather like Lelldorin and Mandorallen; the idea of two enemies-turned-friends who are both devastatingly well-meaning and complete idiots was rather a lot of fun.
My favorite Ce'Nedra moment was when she gave a very good argument (in context, at least) for Boob Armor and why she *needed* it! Always came back to me whenever I'd hear complaints about that on the internet later in life...😅
@rungus24
I read Prydain when I was 10 and just after reading Narnia. It is a children's book I loved it at the time but haven't reread it.
There's nothing wrong with these books, they're still as good as when they were written.
Sounds more like your world view is the issue rather than the books.
Remember, it was co-authored by his wife Leigh Eddings. Who is POLGARA....
I reread this series every couple of years. I absolutely love it to this day.
One surprising bit of legacy from these books was a (possible) reference in the Netflix fantasy series "The Dragon Prince". There's a teenage enchantress with dark hair who winds up with a white streak in it; her journey is very different to Polgara's, but when I saw the character with her white lock of hair, Pol was the first thing that came to mind.
Nah, the white lock of hair being associated with witches has a really long history. If you dig through pop culture it's associated with a ton of, usually female, often evil, characters. But being modeled on Pol wouldn't be the worst thing.
It’s difficult to take this video seriously when the narrator constantly mispronounces one of the most important character’s name. It’s Polgara, not Polgaria.
... and the nation of "Ce Nedra" .. yikes
Agreed. was planning to write the same
There were also the Belgarath and Polgara standalone novels, but by that point the formula was getting VERY repetitive. As in, the books were mostly just rehashes of stories and events already told.
The Elenium and Tamuli books were also decent, but the fingerprints of the formula were also evident there. Different enough to be worth a read. And then there was the Legend of Althalus, which has the benefit of wrapping everything up in a single volume and is set it its own unique world and setting.
I read these when I was a kid too. ‘Breezy’ is the word I’d use. Most of the cringier stuff, I think, kind of flies under the radar because of how ‘arch’ the characters and situations are-almost to the point of genre absurdity. In fact, I heard and believed for a long time that the Belgariad was originally written to MOCK other fantasy stories of its type-Garion is a moron, Belgarath is a drunken lecher, with all of the ‘people defined by their culture and heritage’ stuff jacked up to 11.
I feel like the "mockery" interpretation is probably extremely generous to Eddings. I could buy it if any of his other writing displayed an ability to break that mold but I'm not aware of any which does.
@fuzzzone Fair. 'Redemption of Althalus' was terrible. But as I said, that was simply an explanation which made sense at the time, and somewhat connects with statements made in the Rivan Codex.
Been thinking of rereading these books. It's been decades and I recall really liking them, though a lot of this does sound very familiar. Interesting to find a video about the series, it seems rare for anyone to talk about it nowadays.
Yessss!!!!!!! I have been scouring RUclips for a retrospective on the Belgariad since I joined the platform. Exits Explained, you beautiful bastard, you've done it again.
Honestly thanks so much, this series was a bit intimating to tackle because I knew I'd get a lot of backlash because I'd have to talk about all the controversy surrounding the series, anyway it's these type of comments that keep me going, nice to find other people into the same nooks and crannies of fantasy!
@exitsexamined I honestly didn't have any idea about the child abuse thing, which is horrifying. I bought the entire set of the Belgariad and Mallorean some months back in a fit of nostalgia. And they were still a great read, but every so often you pause and go, "damn. That's a pretty messed up/archaic world view."
If you were writing a genuine medieval-ish world, it should be an outdated, if you think about it.
Why would they have 21st century values?
I was wondering for awhile while no one really talked about it on Booktube, I guess now I know why...Doesn't scare me off, tho, maybe I'll finally reread them after perusing some of that fanart!
@@exitsexamined I don't know if you know ever read the Bartimaeus cycle by Johnathan Stroud. If Good Omens is Gaiman and Sir Terry's legitimate offspring, this is the secret love child of Philip Pullman and Sir Terry: dark socio-political commentary melded with hilarious hijinks by one of the most endearing POV voices I've found in modern fantasy.
Ooooft, you had to really try to get physical abuse charges in 70's
We're talking an era where striking with a closed hand - totally fine
Belt, rod,cane,switch ect - okay as long as marks faded within a week
Not only your parents but teachers/priests/anyone you gave parental authority too could do the same.
The ultimate introduction to fantasy distilled into a book series. These books may be considered lightweight, but I would bet this series got as many into fantasy as Tolkein. A fun breezy read.
Totally agree! Do you other similar breezy fantasy reads? Might want to cover more on the channel when I need a break!
Not OP, but Garth Nix's Seventh Tower series is breezy fun with some interesting magic and worldbuilding
@@exitsexaminednot fantasy, but Enders game and the rest of the 18 or so books in that series could make a great video 😊
@@exitsexaminedterry brooks sword of shannara series was another basic fantasy book that grew better as it went.
@@Mike_W78 This would be my pick! Personally, I felt it was at its best with the second book (Elfstones), tho, and I tapped out a few books after that...
I loved the Belgariad, read it several times.
Hmm. Hmm. I have two main comments, of which the second is more important, so let's get the first one out of the way quickly.
Comment one: I appreciate that you felt the need to comment on the abuse story. I vehemently disagree with what you actually got across. To put it simply: Eddings and his wife went to prison. That's the end of the story. That doesn't mean you forget - I certainly wouldn't have trusted them to take care of a child - but it does mean you forgive. That's the very foundation of the system of justice, that people can pay for their crimes, and then are entitled to be given a second chance. And I'd argue that actually, Eddings' literary career is a good example that shows such second chances can lead to great things. I really wish you had at least once highlighed the fact that the abuse story should not be an issue because it already had closure back then. I do not like the way you keep coming back to the abuse and expressing understanding for why that tarnishes Eddings in people's eyes. It actually should not tarnish. It should have no relevance. This is not a case of someone abusing children while writing his books, it's a case of someone committing such an act in the past, pleading guilty, receiving a sentence, and then going on to write books in a sort of second life. Mind you, you don't need to know about the abuse story to come to the conclusion that David Eddings probably wasn't a very nice person in any case - I certainly got that impression from his various comments even just in the Rivan Codex - but that doesn't have any bearing on the work.
Now that we've got that out of the way, comment two: I do think in discussing something like the Belgariad, you really need to think more about the context in terms of the fantasy genre, and in terms of the author. The Belgariad is very, very clearly an early work for Eddings, and I think the Elenium and Tamuli trilogies are far, far more impressive works, with better and more complex characters (though to be fair: I don't think Eddings ever reaches the heights that Tolkien and a rare few other fantasy authors have achieved). So, the Belgariad is a work where Eddings was learning, and it's just not that accomplished. In the context of the fantasy genre, meanwhile, the Belgariad is a sort of ugly duckling, sitting halfway between traditional Tolkien-style fantasy and the George Martin-styled "gritty" modern fantasy. As Eddings explains in the Rivan Codex, he actually was trying to create a more complex world with more complex and grittier characters than what he had seen in Tolkien and earlier works. He was especially concerned with a stronger focus on female characters and the relations between the sexes. I think it's unfair to say that the Belgariad has aged poorly in this regard. It's fine to acknowledge that it's somewhat basic compared to Martin, Tad Williams, and even compared to Eddings' later works. But if you place it in its historical context, you will find that Eddings actually really pushed the genre forward in this regard, and perhaps could even be argued to pave the way for others (though of course there was Ursula LeGuin). The same applies to races. Yes, Eddings' world somewhat collapses into a bunch of stereotypes, which he only rarely tries to break up. But again, don't look to what we are used to today, but rather look at what else there was in the 1980s. Eddings' world was, at the time, strikingly colourful and varied, and what was novel about it was the amount of effort devoted to painting the different cultures.
I'm not actually a great fan of Eddings' Belgariad cycle. I loved his books as a teenager, but whenever I tried to go back to them later, I found myself bouncing off them. It didn't help that Belgarath the Sorcerer wasn't too great, and Polgara was even worse (though I did greatly appreciate the Rivan Codex, because of the insight into the author's worldbuilding). I also rather didn't like the author's arrogance - time and again in the Rivan Codex, you see him basically explaining why his work is ever so much better than Tolkien, when it very clearly is not better. Nonetheless, I'm willing to defend the Belgariad cycle, because it is interesting for what it is - a product of its time, an attempt to break the mold of Tolkien-imitating fantasy, and something that may well have actually encouraged others afterwards to go further down this path. And in the context of the Exits Explained cycle, it comes down to this: the very reason why nothing more happened with the Belgariad, is because there just wasn't any point to it. Works like the Belgariad inevitably have that problem - they seem fresh compared to what came before, but immediately grow stale as soon as something new comes out that pushes further changes. That, of course, is the ultimate irony: that "old turkey" Tolkien wrote will still be floating around long after Eddings' books are forgotten.
Well said all of it, you need up votes
Big, huge, fan of these as they arrived in the 80s. Teen me did not spot anything problematic at the time, loved em. Stupidly sold the books for beer money in my early 20s, been busy reacquiring then in the same editions. Missing book 2....
watching current TV shows I would be horrified if there was an attempt to make this. They would surely regender and race a number of characters. So many stories are frowned on or there are attempts to re-write to fit with modern views instead of those of the time they were written, or of the period they portray.
I slogged through the Belgariad many years ago, based on a friend's enthusiastic recommendation, and my God, I thought it was terrible. Every character is a stereotype, every member of a given tribe or ethnicity is that same stereotype, and I couldn't find anything original in it. I got through the trilogy and started on the Mellorian, and it read like the exact same story all over again. I don't think I read anything worse until I picked up Eregon.
23:00: With Eddings dead he doesn't get to call the shots at this point. I guess whoever is in charge of his estate didn't care to hold to those wishes. His brother maybe? Would be kind of ironic if it was those two kids they briefly adopted. Or possibly sweet depending on how that went down.
27:00: Not just allegations. They pled guilty and were sentenced. Now maybe they were framed or something, I haven't looked into it, but I don't think allegations is the right word.
I really wanna involve spoilers, but that's against the rules. But I CAN give my two favorite quotes ......
'Does bouncing count?'
And, elsewhere.....
'You left his foot sticking out.'
Hrm..... it occurs that both lines were uttered by Silk
The sad thing is that I can recall exactly where those two quotes are. 😂😂😂
Aaaah the first bookseries i ever re-read as a young teen (3-5isch years later) and alot of your remarks hit me even then. But boy oh boy did i like it the first time. Oh and this was the first of your vids i ever was recomendes sure hope the rest are as good
Grimdark seems to me to be the end point of a reaction against Eddings and the other Tolkien impersonators of that era. Both leave me cold.
There are plenty of high fantasy stories out there to fill the void. Those grimdark stories are just one of many dark fantasy stories where good and evil aren't easily defined and good doesn't always win.
I enjoy both. I can see why people who want to escape into a fantasy world don't want to read stories that are more similar to real life, where people are shades of gray and good and evil aren't protagonists and antagonists looking to save/destroy the day.
I love both. Many of these darker fantasy stories like a song of ice and fire and Steven Erickson's books, Karen mills works, brent weeks works,etc are very well written and extremely compelling because of the gritty realism involved.
Ooh, what timing. I've had this series sitting on my shelf unread for the last 25ish years and the other day I was looking at it and thinking, I remember I liked this in grade school, I wonder if I should give it a reread?
edit: Was completely unaware of their crimes until this vid.
There's always Malazan. That's harder than wheel of time. Took me 6 attempts to get through book one, and glad for it. Trying book two now with similar results. Every sentence or description is important and such it is hard if I loose focus :x. The POV writing is interesting in that, if the POV character doesn't know, then neither do you and no one explains it.
Whatever you can say about Eddings, his _Rivan Codex_ is a pretty good guidebook on epic fantasy worldbuilding.
100% agree actually, I thought the Rivan Codex and especially Eddings notes in it about why he made certain decisions and reviisons were extremely interesting
Causing you to forget about a character who doesn't talk and then never mentioning him was a Cheap Trick. In the Malloreon
After hearing my uncles talk about the Belgariad I finally read it last year. It was simple, but fun. I moved on to the Mallorean and was quite disappointed. After a strong start it fell off around the 3rd book and never recovered. I think that was when he started writing the Elenium and all his passion went there. I went into the prequels a bit skeptically but he regained his form and they were alright. I haven’t yet read the Elenium or anything else by Eddings yet. Would be interested to hear how his other stuff compares.
Such a great video! Thank you for this deep dive into The Belgariad. I already knew about the child abuse convictions but by the time I learned about it this series had already been my comfort read for years. Yes it's basic but that was part of its charm. For context I'm currently reading Words of Radiance by Brandon Sanderson which is anything BUT basic! Lol
Hey thanks so much for the kind words! I might cover Words of Radiance but I haven't dipped my toes into it yet! Is the series finished?
Etr...i first read this in my 30s and loved every page of it. The one problem i had with this series was its predictability. There was never a sense of danger (for the characters' lives) or urgency. It was more like people on a field trip. But it was highly enjoyable. I've actually read the entire series several times over.
You’re the only person I’ve ever heard not liking these books and it seems to be because you can’t separate art from artist.
Not to say kids can't enjoy things that are more nuanced, but I read these in ... 6th grade, maybe? 1987. And i think the Belgariad's straight ahead nature made it very accessible. I mean, i know that i missed a whole lot the first time i read the Stephen Donaldson books (also in sixth grade).
EDIT: Ugh. As someone who read this stuff in middle school and early high school (I loved the Elenium too) and is looking at these books specifically as opportunities to share my childhood love with a daughter who is approaching that age and reading ability, it was really heartbreaking to learn about those lawsuits. I was really looking forward to reading these with her - but hey, It's not like they're is a lack of other options.
It was fun in it's day. And based on this video, it's a reflection on the day.
a problem with an analysis like this is that it's viewing sex and race issues through a modern lens.
WHY WOULD A MEDIEVAL SOCIETY VIEW THE WORLD THROUGH A MODERN LENS?!?
do you think real medieval peasants would have thought much differently than as portrayed by eddings? are the views presented an extension of eddings himself or are they an attempt at extrapolating the worldview of people living in this setting?
imagine a story set in real medieval england. if the characters are not explicitly and constantly racist and sexist as ue would consider it, it would be inaccurate.
it actually bugs the shit out of me when period pieces have radically revisionist morals and attitudes that DISTORT what it was actually like to appease modern sensibilities. screw that. portrayals ought to be authentic and damn our morality.
Good observation.
It's a good point but have you read the belgariad? I'm not saying that the books should fundamentally change the society of the series and remove it from a historical setting and what that would look like. The problem is that the way he writes woman perspective (and many other characters) is incredibly one dimensional. It's just leaves a bad taste and if you give the series a reread I think you'll really quickly see what I mean! Also fantasy is a different world with different rules, Polgara is one of the most powerful people in this universe! But love discussion in any form and thanks for watching the vid!
I imagine a story set in medieval England wouldn't involve Fenlings or fucking Dragons. That wouldn't be historically accurate.
A work of fantasy set in a fictional setting is not historical, so there can be no historical accuracy. This is not a story set it real medieval England, so there is no need for the characters to adhere to historically accurate actions and beliefs of that place during that time.
Furthermore, it seems that you're suggesting that the _characters_ should be sexist and racist in order to be believable, but what's problematic here is the sexism and racism of the _writer_ in their portrayal of the world and the characters.
I actually agree with you that it's frustrating when period pieces ignore actual problematic issues by pretending they weren't there. But I don't think works of fantasy in fictional settings count as period pieces.
Progressive moralizing is annoying. Seems the world is coming around to that realization as well. Also, the people claiming that 'because dragons are in it, it doesn't need to be realistic' are either intentionally missing the point, or not getting it. Game of Thrones had dragons of it, but it was very grounded and realistic for a fantasy setting. Shrek, also a fantasy setting with dragons and fantasy-stuff, is not realistic or grounded. There's degrees of 'realism' in a setting.
As a kid (about 10 or 12) in late 80s i read them, and this is fascinating!
Before watching this video I will say.
This aged poorly because all the best ideas were taken and used a thousand times by other books and all the bad ideas are that much more prominent.
All I have to say is that, I loved reading it and completely forgot the story by the end… and was never really compelled to read it again.
I enjoyed the series back when they can back. I enjoyed his other series where the hero was like a Paladin
Sigh... you do realise not all books need to be realistic right ? Some books can be driven by (religious) symbolism and themes and be about virtue and morality.
Basically you want all fantasy to read like some science paper or history book , or some fantasy reality show where your a fly on the wall.
If you haven't already, could you also do a video about Eddings' other series?
Loving these. Wondering if you knew the Deverry cycle books by Katherine Kerr, not sure if they are quite on the level of popularity of some of these series though.
Assuming there WAS an live action adaptation...Who should be in it? Who should be Belgareth, Silk, Polgara, etc? Let's cast this thing! 😁
(Also, who should direct, score and do all the other things? Movie or series, and on which network?)
When I first read the books I thought about this, and had an impossible cast in mind. As in actors who were not active at the same time.
I read the first two volumes two years ago, and I hated Garion and Polgara so much that I did not read more. I might have liked the series more as a child (same applies to _Memory, Sorrow, & Thorne_ by Tad Williams).
But anyway, Eddings's children could absolutely ignore their horrible father's wishes, sell the adaption rights, and give the buyers a permission to re-interpret the stories however they want. Making the adaptations a payback for the abuse might be a selling point.
Another series that has a very similar feel to my much loved Belgariad is the Ranger's Apprentice series. Similar vibe, young adult stuff.
I like the Belgariad but even as a kid I noticed the mish mash of real world cultures that did not exist in the same timeline. I kinda imagined walking through the back stage of a 30's Hollywood film studio between different productions: Here be Robinhood land, up there the Vikings. Oh look it's the Knights of the Round Table fighting the Roman legions, and so on. Didn't ruin it for me though. Still fun.
Goodness, I haven’t thought of the Belgariad in years!! 😅 I read the series as a kid (10/11 years old) in the 90’s and I remember I really loved it! I especially loved Polgara. I kind of feel like I should re-read them but then again maybe I should just leave them in my childhood memories 😝 (maybe I loved it so much as a kid because it was relatively simply written and easy to understand? 🤔)
I read a lot of fantasy books in the 90’s and a lot used the same tropes.
I read this series as a kid in the '80s. I'll be interested in watching your video to hear all about what is being said about it now . . .
3:03 I just subbed probably 2-3 minutes ago and I’m already going to unsub. The word “racism” is exclusively used these days on things that aren’t racist in any way and I’m sick of it
No. It's not "exclusively" used for things that aren't racist. Very obviously not. Some people go too far, but uh... that didn't happen in a good essay where one of the points is that an old author wrote simplistic bio-essentialism and that made for bad writing. Stop being an a-hole, start caring about other people, and learn how to think with nuance and humility.
@@hawkname1234Yeah, it really is. In the past 5-6 years, every time I’ve seen it thrown at a person, they turned out to not be racist.
Most of the time, the weirdos screaming about racism are racist themselves. Example: Twitter claiming orcs are supposed to be black people because they’re dumb and violent, Twitter users comparing minorities to bugs and robots when Helldivers got big, etc. I JUST saw some weirdo today claiming women in video games these days aren’t ugly, they’re just non-white… He didn’t even realize he just called all non-white women ugly.
Oh, so I’m an a-hole because I don’t like being called dumb and violent or being dehumanized? Congrats, you are exactly why I roll my eyes at the mere mention of the word.
Do yourself a favor and follow your own advice at the end there, please and thank you
@@hawkname1234 Yes, it is. Most of the time, the people throwing it around are perfect examples of it. Example: Twitter claiming black people are orcs because orcs are dumb and violent, Twitter comparing us and other ethnicities to bugs and robots when Helldivers was big, etc.
I don’t really appreciate being dehumanized and told I’m dumb and violent. I also don’t appreciate being called an a-hole for speaking out against it.
You really should read that last sentence of yours again and start living it yourself
The Belgariad was something I read in my early twenties. One thing I found jarring my mind was that the world was "made" for the story. Not the other way around. That things where too simple. You had an "heroic" knight society, a farmer society, a horse-based society, an "imperial" society but they all felt like they were manufactured to serve the story, not as a country that has grown, evolved and was going to exist long after the story ended. They had no agency of their own, but to serve the story. While this was maybe interesting for the moment, it left you kind of strange afterwards. Compare it to the writing of for example Robert Jordan or George RR Martin, where the world had evolved long before and was the backdrop, sometimes the frame of the story, but it existed before, exist during and would, in most cases, exist long after the story ended. Each country was the result of the movement of people, cultures etc. Granted Robert Jordans is also a bit single culture-single country storyteller, but on a whole other level.
"Beleriand": A region in northwestern Middle-earth during the First Age. Strangely similar to "Belgariad."
Loved the series. Mandorellen was my dude lol.
I loved this series so much I NAMED MY SON GARION(his middle name) so.
People seem to fondly remember this series, while conceding it's heavy trope reliance, however I never get too excited to try this one - though I've thrifted the all of the books - and you've made me all the more dubious. I'd much rather revisit Dragonlance or Shannara, or catch up on more timeless, well regarded authors like Tad Williams, Melanie Rawn, Carol Berg, Ursula Le Guin, Patricia Mckillip or so many others. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not sure I'll ever make time for this one, perhaps it's time is past.
Another cool detail about the books, they are the source of the first "arrow to the knee" retirement line.
I loved this series when I read it in middle school, but I don't think I could do it again without cringing too hard to finish even the first book. Especially considering when I tried Edding's Elenium/Tamuli series in high school, I was already starting to be uncomfortable with far more stuff.
Polgara not 'Polgaria'.
The Murgos (the oriental race whose god was the Bad Guy, the Pawn of the Other Prophecy) were not one note. There were some 'good ones' but that too is a bit cringe worthy.
There's also the subgroup whose women are property but "it's not the way you're thinking" the author keeps insisting.
I enjoyed these books quite a bit. The criminal convictions? I don't really care, as it isn't really relevant.
I think there is something to be said for separating the author from his work, but I also can understand how it colors peoples opinions of it. It's tricky!
I think there is some minor nobility in refusing to partake in something enjoyable so as to not finance people or companies you think are negative in some way. But, you know, Eddings is dead. We ain’t financing him.
@@89Dienekes Even if he was still alive, this was a crime he already did time for before the series was published, and he wouldn't be adopting children ever again, making it rather different from an Orson Card situation. Maybe people say "that's a toxic person I don't want telling me stories", but I don't think we can be sure on that, much easier to judge the story itself.
A few of my own thoughts:
I've long said that Eddings has exactly one female character - presumably based on his wife - at three different ages. So women in his books are either child-Leigh, young-woman-Leigh, mature-Leigh, or cardboard cutout.
If memory serves, the Belgariad was written as a trilogy of ~500 page books, but the publisher was only able to publish slimmer books, so got chopped into 5 parts instead. That certainly makes sense of the way individual books don't so much end as stop, though I've not revisited the series to see if there were actual end-points for the three-book division.
And, of course, Eddings went on to retell the Belgariad with the same characters shuffled around a bit another four times - the Elenium and Tamuli, the Redemption of Althalus, and the Dreamers - the best version is probably either the Elenium or Althalus. The Dreamers doesn't even try to pretend they're doing anything other than going through the motions four times.
The main reason to read Eddings is to watch his group of male characters hang out together doing MCU-style banter. The world-building is broad, but very shallow, and the plot is largely an excuse to visit various carboard sets to provide more varied locations for the bantering. At least that's how I remember it, not having re-read any of them since the Dreamers released almost two decades ago.
Great observations about the banter; I remember being so stoked just to "hang out" with this group again, it was one of the few stories where I didn't even CARE if there was a plot, it was just too much fun being back with them again!😁
Commenting before watching the video:
I loved the Belgariad and the Malloreon in my early teens. But already at that age I was looking for deeper or more realistic themes, and was already frustrated with the X-Men tv comic series for having teased that in its first episode, then pulled back after that.
A family friend had told me about Tad William's Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn; and once I read that I could never go back to simpler black and white fantasy like Eddings tended to make. Obviously the heavier darker fantasy that I appreciate aren't everyone's cup of tea (though the massive success of ASOIAF suggests there is a large market for it) and I'll admit I'm not even a big fantasy fan, so I'm probably out of step with most readers on this.
Thanks for that. I'm an avid fantasy reader and the Belgariad has been on my list for awhile. The character of an artist does matter. There is plenty else for me to read and I will not be supporting his work.
Your presentational voice has changed so much in a year.
haha hopefully in a good way! Benn really trying to make it more easy and natural - also btw thanks for watching the channel for that long!
Yep I read both lotr and belgariad as a kid and loved both
That's Hettar with the two swords and mohawk leading into ponytail (scalplock, the books call it) that you're zooming in on in the section about Silk. Silk looks nothing like that. Other than that, great video.
Also the Elenium is grosser as far as "problematic" goes, the hero Sparhawk ends up with a girl he's basically raised as a daughter, and of course it's framed as great and her as the main instigator even though she's basically a child. Even reading that as a maybe 13 year old, I never read another of his books. Grooming's grooming, and I wasn't overly surprised years later to find out they were child abusers.
I've re-read the series every five years or so. They're as enjoyable on the most recent read as they were on the original. I've probably re-read these more than anything else, probably partially due to having come across this series ahead of many others but also because the series is relatively short (although there are 10 books in the Belgariad/Mallorean). I didn't really get into the Ellenium as deeply, but it is fun too.
The Eddings were convicted in the 1970s, they served their time and in theory were rehabilitated. That doesn't make what they did right, but it is in the past and not directly related to the series. Both of the Eddings are dead, and the profits for the series goes to literature scholarships at Leeds College, so even if you dislike the authors anything you spend on the books/audible goes to a good cause.
I read these books as a preteen/early teen, and they are pretty good as "baby's first fantasy". Complicated, they are not. All characters and plots are pretty simple, or rather straightforward, as you said. Still like the books, but won't pretend that they are something they are not. Also realizing right now, that the first books are as old as me. Explains a whole deal about this series. It's a fun series, but I wouldn't expect anything extraordinary from them.
Even as a kid, I could so easily see the problems with some of his characterizations. Didn't stop me from liking some characters. Never liked the Elenium series though. Couldn't even finish the whole series. The Belgariad and The Malloreon is therefor my favorites of their book series. But then again, I haven't read any more after those I mentioned.
I learned about the abuse years after I read the books. They did plead guilty and did their time. Awful people can indeed create good or entertaining art. Just look at Lovecraft.
Bad news for the “men writing women” issue…Leigh was his uncredited co-author on the Belgariad…