@@Astigos It's pretty common to play RPS for pick-order in some games :P Like japanese players in SF4 did it all the time. A lot of other games have a 'winner can't change' rule as well. It's no that 20XX at all. It's current.
That is the most well constructed argument I've heard on this subject. I think there are games and situations in which tiers are more or less relevant, but they always exist. One thing that you didn't mention that is pretty relevant is situations in which a characters tools are not so bad in their own right, but do not lead to much reward. USF4 Dee Jay is a good example of that. His fireball is decent, he has some good buttons and an annoying air option in his knee shot, as well as some decent specials, but I think more than any other character in USF4, his design is let down by him being a charge character, which really limits his damage options. I feel like if he were a motion character, he'd probably be upper mid tier instead of bottom. That said, the bottom in USF4 still isn't even that bad, still viable in the right hands. KitasenjuDJ has demonstrated that clearly in the current Topanga B League.
@@quickcar5255 no that’s just the reason storm is top tier, she’s top tier primarily for that match up. It’s like arguing cable was better then magneto because magneto can’t do anything in that matchup. Outside of each other sentinel literally outperforms storm in every function as a character. If anything you’re actually advocating for why match ups are important because even in context to tiers match ups can be big.
@@Neogears1312 Storm has a greater dhc, greater mobility, greater rush down and so on. Sent has more health but he's fat and everyone can infinite him.
The problem is BOTH are humans. He means Classic Sub-Zero. Also yes, in UMK3 Classic Sub-Zero has a dogshit special move (Ice puddle), it's only really useful for resets and mind games. Other than that he wasn't THAT bad.@@JT-hk9ur
I agree with the notion that tiers exist, my argument is against people judging others by and against them. Tiers are *NOT* the be-all end-all, and should not be taken as such, especially in games where the tier list is very 'condensed'(IE where the power of the highest tier character is not hugely different from the power of the lowest tier character). Smash 4 before the DLC was very much like this. Pretty much everyone that the bottom 5 were considered competitively viable, and even ones that were in the bottom 5 would still take the occasional tournament. Overall, tiers ARE a concept that should be taken into consideration, but not when looking at a player's mindset.
Yeah tiers are for thinking about what you play. If you're thinking about what someone else plays entirely based on the tier of their character, you need to get over yourself.
So, I was there for the lifetime of Smash 4. I guess we're gonna pretend vanilla Diddy, Sheik, and Rosa weren't head-and-shoulders the best characters at the time, as well as that several characters were pretty weak in the early game like Bowser and Ike who were able to stand out in later versions of the game. Yes, DLC was busted but no one at all thought Smash 4 was more balanced at the start than the end.
Yeah this comment is reminiscing about something that straight up never existed. I'd be surprised if pre-patch Zelda - a character that couldn't combo the alphabet together - was ever able to take so much as a local tournament. And Zelda was still Bottom 5 post-patch after they gave her a few tools here and there. Earlier versions of Smash 4 were basically a couple of horrifying top tiers (Hoo-hah Diddy, pre-nerf Sheik, Rosalina), a handful of high tiers and a whole load of completely dysfunctional characters behind them. There admittedly WAS a brief sweetspot where the characters were, for the most part, in their final patched form and Cloud and Bayonetta hadn't been added to the game yet. This probably would've been at around patch 1.1.2 and maybe bleeding into 1.1.3. That was by far the best state the game had ever been in. It still wasn't THAT balanced though, and the game only stayed like that for a couple of weeks at most.
I like how this was 5 years ago and you just released a video on this topic and your stance has not changed lol
Wouldn't really be possible for his stance to change because the argument is bulletproof, if you disagree you're kinda just wrong
The most balanced fighting game in history would be Street Fighter 1. Ryu and Ken are literally the same character.
Tiers don't exist.....
In SF1
@Quest Tzecai In the year 30XX, competitive SF1 is rock paper scissors for side priority.
@@Astigos It's pretty common to play RPS for pick-order in some games :P
Like japanese players in SF4 did it all the time. A lot of other games have a 'winner can't change' rule as well. It's no that 20XX at all. It's current.
That is the most well constructed argument I've heard on this subject. I think there are games and situations in which tiers are more or less relevant, but they always exist. One thing that you didn't mention that is pretty relevant is situations in which a characters tools are not so bad in their own right, but do not lead to much reward. USF4 Dee Jay is a good example of that. His fireball is decent, he has some good buttons and an annoying air option in his knee shot, as well as some decent specials, but I think more than any other character in USF4, his design is let down by him being a charge character, which really limits his damage options. I feel like if he were a motion character, he'd probably be upper mid tier instead of bottom. That said, the bottom in USF4 still isn't even that bad, still viable in the right hands. KitasenjuDJ has demonstrated that clearly in the current Topanga B League.
I know this is an old comment but in USFIV Omega mode, he is a motion character and is sooooo much fun to use
who knew years later he would have to make a video on this!
Who's here after watching the followup video he did to this? Baf always coming through
Tiers are obvious because some characters do the same things better than others. It's really that simple.
Alternate Argument: Storm/Sentinel in MVC2
Storm is better.
@@quickcar5255 In god tier, sure, but Sentinels flight beats 80% of the cast
@@dekuskrub2154 Sentinel is just an assist and great anchor for Storm.
@@quickcar5255 no that’s just the reason storm is top tier, she’s top tier primarily for that match up. It’s like arguing cable was better then magneto because magneto can’t do anything in that matchup. Outside of each other sentinel literally outperforms storm in every function as a character. If anything you’re actually advocating for why match ups are important because even in context to tiers match ups can be big.
@@Neogears1312 Storm has a greater dhc, greater mobility, greater rush down and so on. Sent has more health but he's fat and everyone can infinite him.
Sub zero(the human one) is really low tier because all his special moves are really slow they have terrible start up amd recovery frames
In UMK3?
The problem is BOTH are humans. He means Classic Sub-Zero. Also yes, in UMK3 Classic Sub-Zero has a dogshit special move (Ice puddle), it's only really useful for resets and mind games. Other than that he wasn't THAT bad.@@JT-hk9ur
Just commenting so you get a notification.
This vid aged well
I agree with the notion that tiers exist, my argument is against people judging others by and against them. Tiers are *NOT* the be-all end-all, and should not be taken as such, especially in games where the tier list is very 'condensed'(IE where the power of the highest tier character is not hugely different from the power of the lowest tier character).
Smash 4 before the DLC was very much like this. Pretty much everyone that the bottom 5 were considered competitively viable, and even ones that were in the bottom 5 would still take the occasional tournament.
Overall, tiers ARE a concept that should be taken into consideration, but not when looking at a player's mindset.
"Smash 4 before the DLC was very much like this."
And then Cloud and Bayonetta happened. Making tiers an even more justified concept. :)
Yeah tiers are for thinking about what you play. If you're thinking about what someone else plays entirely based on the tier of their character, you need to get over yourself.
Smash 4 was still pretty unbalanced pre-DLC. Around a 1/4 to 1/3rd of the cast was seen as unviable competitively.
So, I was there for the lifetime of Smash 4.
I guess we're gonna pretend vanilla Diddy, Sheik, and Rosa weren't head-and-shoulders the best characters at the time, as well as that several characters were pretty weak in the early game like Bowser and Ike who were able to stand out in later versions of the game. Yes, DLC was busted but no one at all thought Smash 4 was more balanced at the start than the end.
Yeah this comment is reminiscing about something that straight up never existed. I'd be surprised if pre-patch Zelda - a character that couldn't combo the alphabet together - was ever able to take so much as a local tournament. And Zelda was still Bottom 5 post-patch after they gave her a few tools here and there. Earlier versions of Smash 4 were basically a couple of horrifying top tiers (Hoo-hah Diddy, pre-nerf Sheik, Rosalina), a handful of high tiers and a whole load of completely dysfunctional characters behind them.
There admittedly WAS a brief sweetspot where the characters were, for the most part, in their final patched form and Cloud and Bayonetta hadn't been added to the game yet. This probably would've been at around patch 1.1.2 and maybe bleeding into 1.1.3. That was by far the best state the game had ever been in. It still wasn't THAT balanced though, and the game only stayed like that for a couple of weeks at most.
Umk3
Nice
cool
Tier exists, but the mk argument you made recent is still not enough to get in the head of the casual player
Your name sounds like Storm of Urfael I like it ♥
tiers don't exist.
Cmon, you know they do
@@dragonic22 it's a joke.
@@dragonic22 the only game without tiers is pong. 🤣
@@SpitefulAZ I dunno man. I feel like Pinball don’t have tiers either 😂