If Capcom does a complete remake of 3s, I hope they would pick Mike Z as one of the team members to balance the game. This list was amazing and I pray this happens one day. I also agree on all of those moves that used to be unsafe on hit and block being safe on hit (obviously) and safer on block. Glad you went over this.
Here are some additional ideas: • Akuma's medium and heavy Shakunetsu subtract hits from projectiles like in SFIV and V. In addition, his EX (LP+MK+HP) palette turns his red aura effects (e.g. taunt, Shakunetsu startup) yellow like in 2I. • Urien's timeout loss animation has the blood restored, regardless of region (because censorship is stupid). • Bring back Dudley's Thunderbolt from 2nd Impact, with the same input as SSFIV so as not to overlap with Short Swing Blow (it was QCB+K in 2I). To compensate for the charge, it's faster and less laggy than in 2I. • Alex's Spiral DDT can now be done in the air like in 4rd Strike Arranged Edition, but also works as an air-to-air (it only works as an air-to-ground in 4S). • Necro's Tornado Hook is easier to cancel into Snake Fang (which turns it into German Suplex), and Slam Dance gains a backturned variant like Hyper Bomb. • The dummied-out Shin Akuma is now fully functional. All graphics are fixed, he has a proper rival battle (same as normal Akuma, instead of fighting Gill twice in a row), and the improper behavior of SAII and SAIII is fixed. His moveset is updated to include the new 3S moves: as the unused Shin Akuma in 3S reuses most of his data from 2I, he is missing Hyakkishu and KKZ, and he still has the Zenten roll (though he will still keep this just because). The yellow aura effects for his taunt and such are now cyan like in 2I (with the yellow going to normal Akuma's EX palette). His two unused palettes from 3S are unchanged. • Shin Akuma can once again be fought as a secret final boss, with similar conditions as 2nd Impact: cannot lose a round ever, must have fewer than three chip damage finishes by the final stage. In addition, you must fight Q and get at least one Super finish against him (as normal Akuma is no longer a boss, the Super finish requirement has been moved to Q's fight). Shin Akuma will KO Gill (or Alex if playing as Gill) with a Shun Goku Satsu, and the fight will commence after a short dialogue (same as 2I). Continues after this point are allowed, and defeating him will unlock him as a playable character (you do not need to have unlocked Gill). • Gill remains an unlockable character, with the same requirements as Online Edition. He now has all palettes from the arcade versions of New Generation and 2nd Impact, with his alternate 3S palette now being his EX palette.
And for Q Allow SA3 (hit grab) to be combo'd into from a Dash Punch Roundhouse Capture and Deadly Blow is now 9f start-up Kara command grab is now more lenient All versions of slaps can super cancel B.mp now causes a juggle state,enough for dash punch SA2 dash punch,but follow ups are more scaled St.mp has it's upward hitbox extended and is now slightly faster Overhead dash punch and Low dash punch cancel to SA3 on block to keep safe SA3(command grab) now does significantly more stun Q no longer takes extra blockstun and can now do a regular parry on the last hit of Chun-Li SA2(Hyoku Sen) Q's taunt is unchanged Q's overall movement speed is increased moderately Sweep is now -13 instead of -25 on block,and can now be canceled into taunt Increased backdash and forward dash speed slightly Q now has a purple costume option by pressing select at the character select screen As you can tell,I'm a Q main,but even so,all of this would only make him slightly better than Dudley. Also,Q for SF6!!!!!!!
Just a few small thoughts - Necro Divekick hitstun increased so the multi hits actually link and it isn't as minus on hit - Hugo raise Height on s.HP so it links better from his ground to air throw - Hugo make c.HK an overhead during all attacking frames rather than only during the later half - Hugo make c.HP and Back Breaker H Air Invuln on startup - Hugo increase active frames on M and H Clap so they're better meaties - Hugo make Monster Lariat slightly safer on block, especially the heavier versions - Make Sean Roll instant startup, make hurtbox lower - Sean allow use of 236K in the air, make it grab invuln on startup, and increase it's hitbox size, especially around Sean's Hips - Sean make DP, especially EX a better reversal - Increase Hitstun on Sean 6HP so its 2 hits actually link - Make Sean s.MK special cancelable
Cheren it’s more like a bunch of them walked, and the ones who were forced to remain for financial reasons got fired. Mike got to keep his company for a couple weeks and the former lab zero team got to keep a workforce with the new company, future club
What if.... fighting games released a frame adjuster? They released their games with the ability to self adjust frame data of moves. Maybe not for competition which would be set but for non-competitive players to be able to tweak moves and basically customize their own fighting game
Obviously you can’t use that for online play, so it’d basically be limited to offline play goofing off with friends Still, I think fighting games, and games in general, becoming easier to mod is always good
It isn't actually a massive leap from the tons of modifiers in Smash or dipswitches in 3S Online Edition. Creating your own characters has been a thing for a while from SoulCalibur (based on existing roster IIRC) to Rivals of Aether (basically totally original) too. One shortcoming to avoid is being opaque though. Brawl's stickers were dynamic but limited to a weighting system which harmed potential for messing around, a good idea to avoid a 999+ hypothetical Metaknight destroying Subspace Emissary but you wouldn't be able to have too much power till you finished the game anyway. The limitation is more or less the same in future games with Miis (which could be customised in height and width which affected frame data as well) being the peak before Ultimate. Smash Ultimate does have spirits which allow you to perfect block to reflect projectiles (like Melee) but instead of being a mode, it is tied to something you have to equip which will always adjust your stats and combos. You are freely able to select the spirits which might make Little Mac more competitive (better jumps?) but you need to spend time on assembling them (or organising them if you have em) only for them to have more balance implications.
Well im not talking straight character customization. Thats what fighting games have been trying to do for awhile but I think by design its really hard to implement. Most fighting games are 1v1 competitive and with set balances (the set in stone foundation of characters) allowing players to try to customize usually leads to "optimum builds" ruining the whole idea of personalization anyway. I was just talking about letting players alter frames themselves for fun. Im not a game designer so I don't know what limits would have to be in place like how closely animation is tied to the frames of a move. But simple things like 3s seans normals being shit and just tweaking them to be a little more even with other shotos. Give him a little more active frames or less recovery on certain moves on hit to give him more cancelable options. If possible this would allow players to "fix" characters they feel need it for their own enjoyment and I don't know but would assume it wouldn't be too hard to do. Also maybe allow for stupid bullshit like making everything cancelable or gatling comboable or nothing cancelable and have a poke fighter.
@@paulc7400 It doesn't seem too crazy at all, but the barrier to cross is just giving us options to directly mess with things as specific as a cancel window which gets changed regularly by patches anyway and tons of games have custom options which can change this, sometimes even as a state you activate in game that can be affected further by attributes before the fight. My assumption is that developers aren't interested wouldn't want to put the resources into presenting the information well or risk being unable to steer their fanbase to follow their exact structure. That could be part of why Edition Select is pretty rare nowadays and was only thrown into SF4 at the very end with Omega as another distraction when SF5 was due to replace it. Technically, old versions of Trials in SF5 work like an edition select as the attributes are unchanged from that point but curiously there isn't a menu to choose for casual matches almost 5 years on from the game's release.
Problem arises with animation frames, which you must accommodate if such a feature is to ever be acceptable. Especially sprite-based fighters. If you increase the startup frames, for example, the game needs to synthesise the extra frames. This can be done with 3D models because the animation data is there. 2D sprites don't have that and the game can't create in between frames from them.
Giving Alex cancels from low forward and crouch strong are also just looking at the character from the wrong perspective entirely. Instead of comparing him to Ken and trying to make him a bootleg boiler-plate shoto, one needs to consider his kit and the intent behind his design. His moves are meant to work in tandem with his Flash Chop but he has no good tools to hit flash chop. Literally all he needs to give his kit cohesion would be a fake chop (like the twins have fake palm) or being able to "Hammerfall Break" his Slash Elbow (Makoto and Sean already have something similar with Sean Tackle and Hayate cancels). This would give him some really interesting options once he gets in, rather than having to go for one of a couple one-shot mixups before being pushed out. A little surprised that a Potemkin player couldn't see the vision when considering this, but MikeZ is a crack smoker, so w/e.
I agree with most of this, but necro should get more buffs than just SA ajusts. He has a lot of really useless special moves that would benefit from a rebalance, along with MAYBE increasing his health pool.
I really like Mike's design philosophy, in doing away with needless half circle motions, removing inconsistencies, making useless stuff better and giving characters the tools they need to be viable. I'd like to see what kind of dmg/juggle Necro would get out of EX Shock. We have the change list, some of dem ROM hackers should get on it XD Now I wanna know what he would change on +R.
I honestly wish that Alex could at least be good. He's such a cool character and he's the kind of grappler I like. The things I would want from a patch would be: -Alex having his cr.LK ->cr.MK like in 4rd -Make Alex's cr.HP combo into Knee Smash. I could go and say that "SFV did it so why not here?" but I think it's just good to give Alex more threatening options when people get the jump on him. Like Kens and Akumas who can make quick work on him easily. -Drop the startup of M Flash Chop from 15f to around 13f. This could allow Alex to combo from his Strong or Forward and allow for more ways to use Powerdrop and/or Supers. -I would personally like Spiral DDTs to be faster and get an EX variant. Maybe make it work like a Grab version of Slash Elbow. Not only would it make DDT a lot more usable, but it can also make your opponent guess 50/50 when Alex dashes forward. -Give Alex EX Powerbomb/Powerdrop like in 4rd. -Make SA1 (Hyper Bomb) bar be smaller or stock 2 bars. The fact that it's a hefty 1 bar, cripples the utility of the super as well as just a waste since you can blow it on a super that's not even a 0f Super Grab. Granted, Hugo doesn't have a 0f Super Grab, but it's still bad. -Have SA3 (Stun Gun Headbutt) Be invincible the full way through, but still can avoided with a jump on reaction. Or, have the Super be like an Anti-Air Super Grab. Maybe could combo into it from Alex's cr.HP. If we make the SA3 the same, but buffed in the former, Alex could still get his Super off while not losing to a mere jab or worse, and if they change the Super all together, it would be more practical overall. That's personally what I would change.
As an obvious Alex main who’s been thinking of rebalancing this game for a decade I’ve thought about stuff like this for a while and can give some explanations as to why you can’t do some of these. Comboing into medium chops an infinite. Because you often combo out of it with medium into chop. Ex grabs would be worthless mainly because who’s spending bar on grabs. And his grabs aren’t that good when they’re free. Hyper bomb with 2 bars exists; it’s boomerang raid. They’re both medium length 2 bar point blank supers with Frame 1-4 invincibility. You’d really need to just make hyper bomb work and actually need to change his other supers to fix them like changing boomerang raid to start with his ex elbow animation for range and consistency to make his supers not just the good one and the worse version. Stun gun would be impossible to deal with in the corner. The block stun of elbow forces you to be only able to dash out but now you can’t dash in time because of the trajectory. Stun gun might be the single worst designed move in the game even worse than blue nocturne because it’s bad but making it good makes it op and the move itself prevents Alex from having options he should have. It’d be better to be an electric snake esc move with good but not max stun with lots of bar starting with the normal headbutt grab.
@@Neogears1312 I think there could be a way to make it so that M.Chop can't be used twice. I understand why you would say that, however, Alex can have a tough time opening defenses as it is, giving him a more rewarding Grab in general would help him a lot. My point is that his other supers weren't even used. Hyper Bomb and SGHB are just garbage. Which leads to a very limited selection of viable supers, making him less fun. It's not as of he's like Ken, Chun, or Yun, where they all clearly have that 1 super that is just superior to the rest. But Shippu Jinrai isn't really the only good super. All of Kens supers can be solid, it's just that SA3 brings results that the other don't. Same with Chun. Even though SA3 sucks ass, she still has the option of picking two other ones. Kikkosho is a solid super. With Alex, you HAVE TO pick SA2, and even then, players put him at bottom 5 all the goddamn time. And I be honest, even if Alex did have an infinite, I wouldn't be too opposed to that. In game that has shit like Urien's Unlockable Aegis Setups, Chun's threatening screen presence with meter, and a "Fun and Interactive" super name Genei Jin, he'd fit right in with those guys easy.
@@fogblades6811 1. I’d just make his normal grabs better 2. Kens other supers are actually really bad. They’re legitimately bottom 10. You’d have to buff them if you’re nerfing shippu. 3. Alex’s supers actually aren’t that bad, it’s the lack of tools to make them good. Shippu would be ass on Oro because he lacks any tool to make it good and yagoi dama would no longer be top 5 super on ken because Ken lacks the set up to do the unblockable. Alex with light chop super cancel turns hyper bomb legitimately into a top 10/15 super. Because off one jump in Alex always gets the corner gets oki can always confirm it and it instant kills everyone with Ibuki’s hp or less. And that’s without making it impossible to jump out off on reaction btw. It’s why stungun would need a change because you’d just combo into that and murder people. Alex’s supers need reworking because the ideal buffs to him make them have insane overlap. 4. Unblockables aren’t even unfair at all. They just sound unfair. Yang has one that leads to 50% off seiei enbu. No one even bothers because of the difficulty. This is also why oro and urien aren’t very popular despite this, it takes lots of skill and knowledge to actually apply these. Urien and oro have pretty poor confirms from range and limited combo tools so they get these big potential supers instead of the shippu style ones because they’re better at set play than Chun and ken.
Just giving some points. There’s no aggro but fixing 3s is a lot more nuanced than this because a lot of the cast’s problems aren’t immediately obvious to people. For example; you thought ken had good alternative supers and it was just shippu being busted. He really doesn’t at all riya did a new generation video and compare that version of shinryuken to third strikes which does nothing but hit hard and you’ll understand “oh yeah the current version will never compete with shippu even if it was 1 bar only”. And that’s the super that used to be good. Shoryureppa is straight up terrible. It does nothing right in any 3 game but have multiple bar. And even then it still costs way too much.
@@Neogears1312 I don't agree. Alex SA1 can be jumped after the screen freeze and can leave you open for damaging jump in combos. On top of that, it's one long bar of meter. SA3 might as well not be an option considering that anyone who has a good DP or a fast enough dash speed can literally make you waste your bar of meter and possibly punished for daring it use it. Sure, stun kills. But the super is so garbage, it's arguably contested as one of the worst supers in the game. You can't even combo into it like Sean's SA3 with certain characters. And even then, SA2 can miss grabs due to the pushback on the hits. If you're just a tad too far away, you're gonna miss the grab and be open for an attack. It's really pitiful that even Alex's best Super Art, still manages to fumble the ball when you really want it to work the most.
That's true. People are mature enough to separate the idea from the idealist when it comes to this stuff. While he did really stupid stuff to warrant trouble, a lot of his propositions in this list is still compelling to this day.
@@5ryce more like they didnt bother on trying it. since it is not an official patch people mostly dont care for it. the time to do it was during the online edition release. now it is too late for it and people are used with the og version.
Plenty of good ideas, i think removing gaining meter from whiffing moves should be removed in general as it is. It's pretty dumb seeing people just standing there throwing out moves full screen just for meter. Spend less time doing that and more time actually trying to hit each other. Most of the buffs for the low tier chars i can agree with , they won't even be game breaking and those same chars would probably still be low/middle tier after those buffs. Idk if he mentioned buffing 12's damage but that is something 12 desperately needs besides the overall extensive list of buffs he needs, same goes for Q. Idk why he thinks Elena's SAII needs some sort of mechanic change to juggle airborne opponents better or do more damage but I don't think that's necessary. One thing that should be done overall that I don't think is looked at enough closely on this list is the length and stocks of all SAs on the entire roster. Tired of seeing SAIII ken, SAII chun, SAIIIYun etc. etc? changes should be made to the other SAs of each char to make them more viable and attractive to players. 2 of the biggest turn offs is 1 stock and bar lengths on SAs. Since ex moves are a huge part of the game, almost nobody picks the ones that have only 1 stock. I wouldn't say to remove 1 stock SAs completely, because there are some that are powerful enough as it is that it dominates player choices, but overall most people pick the same SA regardless of the matchup and it's just a shame. Personally I like to rotate through the SAs just to add a little variety because after playing for a while you can get bored doing the same thing repetitively
I think whiffing to gain meter is mostly an acceptable mechanic. Matches in SF3 are already fast paced and pretty aggressive as is. Parry usually ensures that running away, zoning by throwing fireballs and spamming whiffs isn’t very effective. And it seems to me like the only high level characters that spam whiffs to an obnoxious degree is mostly Chun, which could be massively disincentivized if you just made Chun’s most used supers one bar.
I think that only hurts characters. For starters what gets Chun li to approach you? Her win condition is poke you out. But then why would you approach her? without meter being built this way neither player would want to interact. This is what good defensive mechanics do. Just parries or whiffing for meter creates a boring passive game. Just parries means you're discouraged to take risks as every thing you do can just reward a more passive player and you're not gonna use projectiles. Just whiffs makes a over glorified snowball fight until someone gets bar first. But both? I can't stay back now; he's slowly gaining resources and if i try to stop him with a hadoken he gains MORE. I have to stop him from doing that or else it's going to make things harder for me! That's why it matters and that's why it should stay.
Sean Ex roll Faster ex tackle Ball trajectory? A close fierce like 2i that can slow down if you spam it or reduce the damage if not . Or just make far fierce good. Fix his normals. They suck. Possibly speed up his kicks and let them go into super but with a little less damage and reduced time to confirm from second impact Make sa1 charge or something. Better ex uppercut. Include the followup hit.
Well I find it easy as well (though that's probably because I play analog), but Mike Z has always stressed this because there are people who find half circles difficult and quarter circles much easier.
i don't like scaling unblockable damage, i don't think they're that broken as is. by reducing the damage you're still leaving in the fundamentally "unfair" mechanic where the opponent has to eat damage off certain setups, but making the attacker (Urien/Oro) shittier. i think changing Chun's super to 1 stock and cr. MK cancel window smaller are both necessary. she still has amazing normals and a great kara throw, as well as nice mixups (+corner carry!) off her SA2 ender...still a very, very good character. with Ken i also agree that you shouldn't reduce damage on SA3...it's already pretty unsatisfactory-looking in terms of damage IMO. the fact that's it's 3f...i think a lot of supers are really fast, just chun/ken have ones that also travel horizontally very quickly. it might be a better idea to make certain normals safe on hit, so chun SA2/ken SA3 can't blow them up. lowering priority on Yun's super makes more sense. i would have said to lower the timer, as i'm not a fan of any fighting game where one player is pressing buttons for a long stretch of time while the other one does nothing...but i guess if you were to change the priority AND the timer, it would be pretty lame. i can see both arguments on Urien's SA1, but i guess he's trying to make it a very strong super to compete with SA3, which is what makes Urien very good. i do like urien having EX options, though. ...as a Hugo player I cannot agree to Akuma having throw-invuln f+MP. :( Yeah, Yang's close MK won't launch opponents if it's meaty. the later active throws don't launch. it's kinda cool, you can still SJC into super, so it lets you create combos not normally possible. (supering on a grounded opponent) forward throw for Oro is a no-brainer. i think in 2i he had it? but the animation was super weird. i'll write more later. already wrote too much...
+onreload The goal was to change the game as little as possible, so rather than removing it I chose to make them less good. No-unblockables was tried in the console version, and it was unilaterally WORSE. If you do that Urien drops very far, just from that one change. Also, they aren't just Urien and Oro - Ibuki, Sean, and Dudley have situational ones.
Oh my feeling is to not change them at all, leaving unblockables in is very important to me (and Urien's integrity.) So dissatisfying to try Urien unblockables on home versions. Ibuki has the air kunai -> crossup super unblockable, right? i don't know sean or dudley's
+onreload Basketball or rose to crossup, you'll never ever see them in real games. And yeah, but they're a stupid THING to have. It's just that they became important for Urien and Oro, so removing them entirely is not an option. Allowing Urien to kill you because he hit you once with full bar is just as bad as Chun in that specific situation.
+MikeZWasTaken I guess if you're going to talk about changing Makoto's guess-right-twice 100% type situation, then yeah, lowering Urien's damage output on the unblockables makes sense. I sometimes forget how these look at high-level play, where a good Mak/Chun/Urien can consistently land these setups and annihilate someone by making them guess wrong a few times. It's especially difficult to pull off as Urien, I think
You can. If you're referring to the Makoto SA3 change, what he's saying is Makoto can't block during this super at all, so it should be changed to where she can at least block un-parryable moves.
I wouldn't shorten Akuma's bars on SA2, that would just mean quicker Raging Demon/KKZ. I'd just restore SA2 to its Second Impact version (which had a lot more more hits, actually LOOKED powerful, and did more damage).
Nearly all those changes sound healthy and well thought out. Here is what i would consider doing in addition. System. Excessive Juggles - Combos longer than Xhits or Ydamage or Zstun, can be air teched like in sfAlpha. Cost is one EX worth of meter. *you still have to parry on the way down but now its not 'just watch your character die'.* Chun-Li. Tensei Ranka (SAIII) should always have all the hits connect *given its low damage and limited use.* Yun. Genei Jin (SAIII) should be a max length super bar, and retain the usual timer duration. *It is too dominating and game changing to let it be activated off of two block strings.* Makoto. If we get cancels for Tanden Renki (SAIII) or other 'changed state' supers, let the timer still tick down and allow the super to be reactivated during that time as well. Turning the meter on costs 5% of the total meter each time. Urien. If you parry an unblockable setup, allow the defending player to tech a throw attempt. Currently, *if you parry an unblockable setup, urien can throw you out of that parry state and this throw cannot be teched.* Akuma. Better damage reduction after KKZ reset. *It should not hurt that much since you landed it during a juggle.* Make the first hit of KKZ parry-able but with difficult timing. Ibuki. If Yami Shigure (SAIII) gains 2 stocks of meter, then her dizzy hits and damage would need a review. *Yami Shigure with more meter would be excessively good for stunning and also weak given how drastic her damage scaling is for longer combos and combos using special moves.* Slightly increase damage of standing LK xx MK. *This is her weakest damage combo in the game.* Slightly reduce damage scaling for Ibuki's longer combos, by changing her air target combos to behave as one hit instead of two, to encourage their use. *Presently it makes sense to do standing MK xx Raida (command hit-grab) in nearly every situation.* Allow Ibuki to parry during Tsujii Goe (moonsault flip). She is very open during this move. *This would enable different setups given the spacing and descent of Tsujii Goe.* Allow Ibuki to parry during the descent following her Kazekiri (uppercut) on hit/parry but not on block/whiff. *When Kazekiri hits, the enemy can simply SRK her follow ups, this would give her defensive options instead of making Kazekiri unusable vs SRK.* Increase the damage from max distance single hit Kazekiri (LK, MK, HK). *it is very low.* Increase hit stun when connecting with Kasumi Suzaku (SAI). *If ibuki is high in the air there are many situations where you must choose to not do full damage unless you want to get punished when you land.* Change the direction you are required to hold when using EX kunai version 2 as a crossup. *currently you must hold away instead of toward* Change Ibuki's taunt *so she is completely safe from air-throws/throws* when it connects. (assuming she gets to air parry during the descent). Increase the damage bonus given by Ibuki's taunt by 25%. Since you must give up an opportunity to do guaranteed damage now and the taunt requires Ibuki to be close range, *the Taunt bonus should be greater than simply doing the same combo twice.* Allow Ibuki's Taunt to hit crouching opponents as an overhead. Also slightly increase the delay before the active frames so the enemy can react. *this increases her offensive options at varying ranges.* Slightly increase the hit stun from Hien (penguin kicks) on hit, but not on block/whiff/parry, *so characters cant always dash under before ibuki can attack.* Allow regular Kunai to auto correct if the opponent dashes under ibuki after Hien (penguin kicks) on block/parry. Allow ibuki to air parry after Hien (penguin kicks) on hit/parry/block, but not on whiff. *she is very open.* Reduce or remove the 'hit as crouching' penalty when hitting Ibuki during her FF dash and command dash (Kasumi Gake). Its already risky enough with counter hit damage. bugfix. *if makoto does Fukiage during ibuki's FF dash, it can 1 hit kill ibuki.* Force the second hit of her standing far HP xx HP target combo to always connect if the first hit connects. *The first hit can land from too far away for the second hit to land* Air LP xx HP target combo and air HP does not put Gill/Urien/Hugo in a turn around state, as such *it cannot be followed up with Yoroi Doushi (SAII).* Make air HP cause the enemy to force-stand on hit, so ibuki can follow up with Yoroi Doushi (SAII) if the enemy failed to defend. Allow the third hit of standing LK xx MK xx HK to be high jump cancelable. *to be in line with other versions of her standing HK.* Allow the third hit of standing far LP xx MP xx toward+LK to be command dash and high jump cancelable. *so its not just a low damage spacing tool* Increase damage of Yami-Shigure(SAIII) to always do full damage and stun regardless of how many daggers hit the enemy. *given the spread of the daggers combined with distance to the enemy and width of the enemy, it is difficult to force all the daggers to hit*
There's a lot of reasons. Q is easier than dudley. Q has a cooler character design than dudley. Q is a "grappler" in a game with almost no grapplers while dudley's play style has zero identity (rushdown oki in a game where everyone is rushdown oki). People also like playing low tiers, and if you were gonna play a high tier you'd probably more readily go to ken/mak/chun/Yun than dudley since all of them are better and more interesting for one reason or another (Chun for lame, Yun for technical, Ken for easy, Makoto for grappler). Q has a lot of identity. Really it's the same reason there's a lot of zangief or Hugo players despite the fact that they're frequently low tiers.
@@Bafael I see. This is why I love the “Buff more than nerf” mindset because some people, especially in not the highest level, play characters that just look cool and have good concept, even if the move set or drama data is horrible. If we buff weak but cool characters, the skill ceiling for players who choose low tier characters drastically increases.
Also, Q is really fun to play, and he forces you to learn the game mechanics because that's all he has for him. For instance, you can win a game with a top tier character without parrying once, which is pretty unlikely with Q. I like MikeZ's list of changes but for Q, looking at the first 2, it feels like, though it would make Q a much better character, it kinds of make him a "normal" fighter, the effective approach would take him away from his quirky fight style. To keep his playstyle fitting his weirdo persona, i'd pick crouching hp as the cancellable low instead of the more standard mk. I'd make so that his back+hk launches higher so that when cancelled into super, the super would hit (as is, the super cancel is useless as it whiffs). It would be super quirky but allow to confirm super from a low from a standing position, which would be fun and unique. Also, though i'm not too much for changing motions for specials, i was thinking, if the motion for the slaps was changed for, say, reverse dp, it would not overlap with the command grab and allow to kara the command grab easily with b+mp, which would give q a very powerful tool. Also, making the slaps super cancellable on the first hit would give Q an easy confirm at the cost of damage, similar to 12's sa1 combo from a.x.e.
Oh and i forgot one urgent thing to change : Q is the one and only character for which the last hit of houyokusen is a red parry instead of a regular parry. I mean, come on, give the robot a break...
I think makoto should get throw invincibility on some move of hers during tanden renki to beat unparriable hit grabs (but not the down down akuma super)
Much as I don't care for Mike Z or his precious waifu-fighter Skullgirls, this is a seriously good read. This needs to happen with like a rom hack or something in the future.
Eh with the SAII change on Akuma that would be iffy because raging demon and kkz are available with all of akuma's super arts. If one of the supers have shorter bars those two supers will be easier to get compared to the other 2 supers he has. Necro does have a setup into Slam Dance, but it's like the worst setup and doing b.mk/b.hk > ex spin punch does more damage than going into slam dance in that situation Did Mike Z forget that Sean's tornado kicks are punishable on hit or did I miss that?
The easier access to KKZ and demon is exactly the point! His idea was that choosing a bad super (in his opinion) could be mitigated by giving Akuma that benefit that the other supers don't have. Come to think of it, he will have the standard super more quickly too, not just the two hidden ones.
I respect Mike Z but for example if a character can do unblockables then that must be taken into consideration when balancing that character and should be put out in the characters special moves so that everyone knows. also some things if you try make them to perfect it ruins them for some unfathomable reason.
It never happened. Mike Z simply made a mental exercise of designing a rebalance of 3S, using his experience of the game as a player, and his experience as a fighting game game designer. Hypothetically, if Iron Galaxy called him for 3SOE, and if IG wanted to rebalance the game like they wanted (or should have, IMO), that's how OE would have resulted.
Getting rid of that would be terrible because then you’d never want to come to the opponent because your approach tools would be parried. Without whiffed meter gain the game becomes incredibly passive and people who think it should go play either very meter unreliant characters or characters that really suck at building meter and blame the game for it.
@@Matt_lambie yeah but plenty of characters benefit from it just as much with just as strong of a move to back it up like Urien Ryu and especially Yang who doesn’t even need the whole bar filled. They only think fuck those two and never consider how much lamer the game would play.
Fuck. That X-COPY change is really beastly. That can make him the best character of the game, even breaking it, I´m not kidding. X-COPY is a great super, maybe one of the best of the game, but Is Twelve who uses it, that´s the problem. Just try using against Akuma, Hugo, Alex, and see what I say. You can destroy them with 3 pokes. I use it against shotos mainly because their normals are really good and at least I can do the basic combos. As an Alex main I liked his changes. I mean Jesus Christ absolutely 90% his actions are unsafe even on block, and a lot of his moves are useless. Yun changes might look a bit overkill. I mean he is OP but c´mon.
@@jsj1288 actually not really. Top 6 yeah but ibuki akuma Dudley yang and ryu were just better still. People just think he was top tier because he was so much better but really by 2I standards he’s just great. 2I is a game where ken was mid tier, and he’s fundamentally no different from his 3s self. The cast was so good a 3s top tier was only mid.
It really sucks that this guy was being a FGC savant for more than a decade, posting on forums, entering tournaments, sharing hotel rooms with people at Evo and other majors, building his own game, promoting his own game, crowdfunding his own game after it was spiked by Konami, getting people in the FGC jobs at his company, and then 3 other employees at his company and a vtuber claimed he made them feel uncomfortable in conversations from a few spread out incidents over several years. Then they deleted all of their claims from twitter a week later. Glad we'll never have to hear from Mike Z again! What an asshole!
A few incidents spread out through *10* years, mind you. *10!* It took them that long to speak out, *surely* their claims hold merit - right? Right?...
@@iop223 Everyone involved deleted their claims shortly after posting them. Looking at his twitter, after everything went down Mike posted about autism awareness and working for free on the GGXXAC+R netcode. The replies to these posts are mostly people calling him trash. He's vanished from the internet since. To his credit, he never apologized.
I would change many things on this game, but mainly what makes it so different from other SF: parry. It is too lenient and there is no risk. You can actually parry then block in the next 10 frames. It stays active for longer than any button. Parry should have a startup (so you don't wake-up parry meaties or parry a cross up) and a recovery, and then you go back to regular SF where you either blocking and take some chip damage, or you take risk for a big reward. Ideally, parry should be a version of CVS2 parry in exchange for the risk. Then we have something that pleases all players. Imagine gathering all alpha, ST and 3d players under the same roof. Change the meters to alpha 2 style and you are done.
So you would not play CVS2? Oh... Kay... And still, this video is a about a considerably large and significant list of changes for the game you love. And you didn't know who MikeZ was.
@@RafTube1 Hes just saying he disagree with your changes of the game, also he does not need to know the whole history of someone just to agree with there ideas.
@@RafTube1 not only was your take bad and took no consideration for player skill or original developer intent, you also have no tolerance for people not agreeing with you. You’re “balance” ideas are always doomed to suck if you can’t at least fix that second one.
Did Bafael never hear about Mike Z? Not even about his Makoto? ... Oh you have, shit. I should finish watching the video before I comment... *Edit*: Also, slight clarification, Shippu is 1 frame startup (or 2f if you include the first active). LiSyaoran made a great video about the stuff it can punish: ruclips.net/video/u5jKI99wLzw/видео.html
Not so hard to rebalance it. Remove one of Chun's sa2 bars, so she only has one. Remove her kara throw. Make it so that Yun doesn't bild meter as fast. Get rid of Makoto's sa2 stun 0-100 insta death combo. And maybe for Ken, you take away his kara srk, or ability to super off of anything. Then you could buff some of the weaker characters a bit, and done. The game is fine the way it is basically, just get rid of what's broken.
I’m glad you aren’t doing anything to balance the game. Your takes a fuckin dog shit. They’re so terrible at properly addressing issues and your low tier fix is “lol just buff em i guess whatever”
3rd Strike would be so unbelievably ass if characters couldn't whiff for meter. Some characters would be outright unplayable, the game would lose a ton of nuance and it would take forever to get the meter to do anything. Removing this feature just because some strong characters benefit from it more is like trying to kill a fly with a sledgehammer.
@@jessISaRicePrincess I swear I replied to this. First of all, Mike doesn't even work on Skullgirls. Two, he's a Sex Pervert. Three, they tried to get him to leave so he fired everyone.
Just because he got screwed over by a bunch of opportunist artists and a furry? No thank you, feel uncomfortable all you want to tho, but you really shouldn't...
Ppl thinking he is a bad person cuz of the stupid joke he made is very very stupid, given the age of the comment, we didnt know about the other way worse shit he did back then
Doesn't have to, nor would I want him to... doesn't stop me from empathizing with the man and his situation. Speaking of which, my poor summer child @@pachicore - how does it feel being proven wrong?
As much as I can appreciate him trying to balance the game, I don't think 3S should ever be touched. One of the reasons why I like this game so much is because of how unique all of the characters are, flaws included. By covering up some of the weaknesses, it starts to make the characters feel a bit more homogenous. There is a similar thing going on with Tekken 7 right now, where newer characters get most, if not all, of the essential tools. And with the balance changes, older characters are gaining new tools they didn't have in previous games. The result is a large cast of characters that has very little to differentiate themselves. If the balance of the game becomes normalized, you end up missing out on some really hype moments. Pierrot's run at Coop Cup in 2018, Kuroda being Kuroda, KO taking out a whole team with Yang, etc. We don't see that happen very often with newer games because everyone goes into a fair fight by design.
Really? Balancing does not make it homogeneous and to use your tekken example tekken is very different game you can't just add a very out there tool you have to make them quite similar because of the moves in tekken and other full 3d fighting games like doa, virtua fighter, soul calibur are so many
Garou released the same year as 3s with a cast that’s so balanced Garou’s equivalent to Sean not only is played more than their equivalent to Chun li the bottom tier Tizoc has a winning match up against a top tier and is perfectly viable. In a game with two tae kwon do characters that are literally two halves of an already existing fatal fury characters movelist there’s still not one character who plays remotely the same. Balance doesn’t cause homogenization. You can make bowser viable in melee. It’s not gonna suddenly make fox and marth unfun because there’s more unique options.
@@bfFAN221 The dude is a racist and a creep. It isn't a call to delete him off of existence. We just shouldn't really be uplifting things he does. It's hurtful and doesn't show compassion to black folks or women. And last a checked we got over calling things cancer because it's fucking stupid.
I don't get why MikeZ is talking about rebalancing 3s. It's over a decade old, we already like it as it is and he already rebalanced his own game into oblivion. 3s players just want a sequel.
+Tim Bell rebalanced his own game? since when? you mean all the way back in 2013? when he added the much needed dizzy bar so that combos in SG weren't so freaking long?
"we already like it as it is" speak for yourself. 3s isn't perfect. What really is the difference between a sequel and a romhack for 3s? The capcom seal of approval? lol.
Baf, and how exactly he is going to "re-write" the program's code? he will need to reverse engineer the entire game, and inject opcodes into it as an extra lines of code. Reprograming the chip alone will take him some time, not to mention the coding itself. Better fish for Capcom to open source the game than RE the entire thing.
It should be one button to throw, just as it is in every previous Street Fighter game except for Alpha 3 (and it should be one button to throw in Alpha 3 too, obviously).
That's a completely terrible suggestion lol. Throws actually have a purpose in 3s as they're a vital part of the parry mixup, so removing throw whiffs or not forcing players to commit to throws as a read would destroy the core mixup. With your system I could literally do close strong on my opponent's wakeup as oro that would throw their block or parry while launching them if they tried to jump or backdash out to avoid the throw. All meaties would just throw parry attempts and make the already strong okizeme literally zero risk for the guy pushing the pressure. You're removing the main defensive option from the game that has almost no other defensive options
@@Bafael "That's a completely terrible suggestion lol." It's not a suggestion, it's simply the way it should have been. Changing how the game is fundamentally controlled after the umteenth entry in the series is asinine. It's like changing "up to jump" to "press a button to jump," or changing "back to block" to "press a button to block," and so on. "Throws actually have a purpose in 3s" Throws "actually" have a purpose in all Street Fighter games, and in all but 2 of the real-arcade-hardware ones, it's one button to throw. The rest of your post is nonsense. Two buttons to throw instead of one just alters the "execution barrier;" anything that can be done with one-button throws can be done with two-button throws once they become reflexive muscle memory.
@@MaximRecoil Are you stupid? There's a huge gameplay difference with two button throws, it's not just ease of execution. One button throws have no throw whiff animation. A one button throw becomes a close strong or close fierce or something if the opponent is unthrowable. Two button throws actually have a punishable animation where you throw nothing if the opponent is unthrowable. This means with 1 button throws you are simultaneously option selecting a close normal if the opponent does something to become unthrowable. In KoF for example, Kyo can do a throw with f+C, and if the opponent jumps or backdashes out it turns into a close C which hits them out of their jump or backdash. If you want a street fighter example, then in SF2, O. Ken can do DP motion, forward, HK, and then the next frame LP. If the opponent does anything that's unthrowable (for example, a reversal) then ken gets f+HK, which is instantly kara'd into an uppercut with more invincibility. So if the opponent is throwable, ken throws, and if the opponent is unthrowable, i.e. not blocking, ken uppercuts them. Scenarios like this are impossible in a game with two button throws (where failed throw attempts result in a whiff) which means there's an actual mixup where players have to commit to their read instead of being able to option select. That's why every street fighter and almost all fighting games in general moved to two button throws.
@@Bafael "Are you stupid?" Comical Irony Alert "There's a huge gameplay difference with two button throws, it's not just ease of execution." No, Slow Doug, it's _only_ an ease of execution difference. "One button throws have no throw whiff animation. A one button throw becomes a close strong or close fierce or something if the opponent is unthrowable. Two button throws actually have a punishable animation where you throw nothing if the opponent is unthrowable." No, simpleton, there is no universal law of nature which demands any such thing; it's entirely decided by the people who programmed the game, i.e., a 1-button throw could just as easily be programmed to have a "throw whiff animation" rather than becoming "a close strong or close fierce or something if the opponent is unthrowable," though that would be stupid, given that it's a departure from how the previous SF games worked. Likewise, a 2-button throw could just as easily be programmed to not have a "throw whiff animation," and it would just become whatever normal strike is assigned to whichever of the 2 buttons was pressed first. The fundamentals of how a game is controlled should never be changed in sequels. If you want to change the fundamentals, make a new game that's not a sequel to anything. The rest of your post is more pure nonsense because your premise is faulty; your faulty premise being: Because differences exist; those differences are somehow inherent to 2-button throws vs. 1-button throws. The differences obviously aren't inherent; they are solely determined by the games' programmers. The only _inherent_ difference between 2-button and 1-button throws is ease of execution.
@@MaximRecoil This is such an unbelievably bad faith argument. You're technically correct, developers can put a one button throw with a throw whiff animation into the game, like Mortal Kombat Deception's throw button for example. But *YOU* weren't talking about those throws, you were talking about one button throws like SF Alpha, SF2, and SF EX, where it's towards/away plus a button to throw, where they turn into normals and have no whiff animation. And because you were talking about *THOSE* one button throws, I explained why *THEY* were bad for the series, particularly why *THEY* are bad for SF3 where they shit on parrying. I'm telling you why what you want is bad because it encourages option selects that make the offense of the game overpowered and don't work with the other system mechanics. Also there's nothing harder executionally about hitting 2 buttons vs 1 lol, so IDK why you keep saying execution is a factor at all. I don't know why I'm even bothering to reply because you're very clearly ignoring the examples I'm giving. I don't think 1 button throws are inherently bad but they allow for option selects which 2 button throws don't, and those option selects would be extremely terrible for the okizeme of this game.
Trash take. Why leave it broken when the game can be better. 3S is out on a pedestal but it's grossly imbalanced and the game could be brought to 'perfection'. Admitting the game is broken and refusing to fix it is a bad mentality. 3S will continue to exist even if a fixed version was made. Keep your legacy while also letting a better version exist and breath new life into it. Draw new blood into it because now more variety exists among the roster.
Idiots like you piss baf off more than anything you know. He’s openly stated people who think this game shouldn’t be improved when ever possible are the worst and ruined the potential for fighting games.
I did move on to new games and so did most other 3s players. But me adapting to sf4 doesn't mean I stop liking 3s or that sf4 suddenly is outright better than 3s. Imagine if my favorite food was blueberries. Imagine if all of a sudden blueberries became very rare and hard to buy while everyone else switched over to eating strawberries. I like strawberries too but I still like blueberries more no matter how much of both I eat. I'd still NEVER get people coming up to me and saying things like "you need to learn to like strawberries more instead. You should adapt/evolve as a person." I have a favorite, man. it's not from lack of knowledge or exposure.
![MvC2: CTD16 - Mike Z vs Romneto FT7 $20 MM .:3.30.24:. [Player Cam]](/img/1.gif)
"I was expecting some kind of Viscant bullshit"
Oh my god I love you Bafael lol
I don’t get it
@@dolphinpuff5045 I guess he meant that article Viscant wrote a really long time ago about why Third Strike is bad
if u didn't know Mike Z is the guy lead game designer for Skull girls. Fun fact
And also a douchebag
@@MansMan42069 Nah he's cool lol
@@AkiraSatou hes so cool that all of his employes left the company and founded their own studio without him
Yes
@@dolphinpuff5045 That's cool of him, nothing wrong with that lmao they should've said something
Also make it so Alex's Spiral DDT actually has a use, like make it air OK or something
That's what 4rd strike did lol
Its a easy set up move. Hahaha
@@dalanwanbdiska6542 it's shit
If Capcom does a complete remake of 3s, I hope they would pick Mike Z as one of the team members to balance the game. This list was amazing and I pray this happens one day. I also agree on all of those moves that used to be unsafe on hit and block being safe on hit (obviously) and safer on block. Glad you went over this.
Yeah, that didn't aged well...
Here are some additional ideas:
• Akuma's medium and heavy Shakunetsu subtract hits from projectiles like in SFIV and V. In addition, his EX (LP+MK+HP) palette turns his red aura effects (e.g. taunt, Shakunetsu startup) yellow like in 2I.
• Urien's timeout loss animation has the blood restored, regardless of region (because censorship is stupid).
• Bring back Dudley's Thunderbolt from 2nd Impact, with the same input as SSFIV so as not to overlap with Short Swing Blow (it was QCB+K in 2I). To compensate for the charge, it's faster and less laggy than in 2I.
• Alex's Spiral DDT can now be done in the air like in 4rd Strike Arranged Edition, but also works as an air-to-air (it only works as an air-to-ground in 4S).
• Necro's Tornado Hook is easier to cancel into Snake Fang (which turns it into German Suplex), and Slam Dance gains a backturned variant like Hyper Bomb.
• The dummied-out Shin Akuma is now fully functional. All graphics are fixed, he has a proper rival battle (same as normal Akuma, instead of fighting Gill twice in a row), and the improper behavior of SAII and SAIII is fixed. His moveset is updated to include the new 3S moves: as the unused Shin Akuma in 3S reuses most of his data from 2I, he is missing Hyakkishu and KKZ, and he still has the Zenten roll (though he will still keep this just because). The yellow aura effects for his taunt and such are now cyan like in 2I (with the yellow going to normal Akuma's EX palette). His two unused palettes from 3S are unchanged.
• Shin Akuma can once again be fought as a secret final boss, with similar conditions as 2nd Impact: cannot lose a round ever, must have fewer than three chip damage finishes by the final stage. In addition, you must fight Q and get at least one Super finish against him (as normal Akuma is no longer a boss, the Super finish requirement has been moved to Q's fight). Shin Akuma will KO Gill (or Alex if playing as Gill) with a Shun Goku Satsu, and the fight will commence after a short dialogue (same as 2I). Continues after this point are allowed, and defeating him will unlock him as a playable character (you do not need to have unlocked Gill).
• Gill remains an unlockable character, with the same requirements as Online Edition. He now has all palettes from the arcade versions of New Generation and 2nd Impact, with his alternate 3S palette now being his EX palette.
And for Q
Allow SA3 (hit grab) to be combo'd into from a Dash Punch
Roundhouse Capture and Deadly Blow is now 9f start-up
Kara command grab is now more lenient
All versions of slaps can super cancel
B.mp now causes a juggle state,enough for dash punch SA2 dash punch,but follow ups are more scaled
St.mp has it's upward hitbox extended and is now slightly faster
Overhead dash punch and Low dash punch cancel to SA3 on block to keep safe
SA3(command grab) now does significantly more stun
Q no longer takes extra blockstun and can now do a regular parry on the last hit of Chun-Li SA2(Hyoku Sen)
Q's taunt is unchanged
Q's overall movement speed is increased moderately
Sweep is now -13 instead of -25 on block,and can now be canceled into taunt
Increased backdash and forward dash speed slightly
Q now has a purple costume option by pressing select at the character select screen
As you can tell,I'm a Q main,but even so,all of this would only make him slightly better than Dudley.
Also,Q for SF6!!!!!!!
Another Akuma change:
Make his SA3 like it was in 4rd strike where it had 2 starting hits before the follow up super hits
Just a few small thoughts
- Necro Divekick hitstun increased so the multi hits actually link and it isn't as minus on hit
- Hugo raise Height on s.HP so it links better from his ground to air throw
- Hugo make c.HK an overhead during all attacking frames rather than only during the later half
- Hugo make c.HP and Back Breaker H Air Invuln on startup
- Hugo increase active frames on M and H Clap so they're better meaties
- Hugo make Monster Lariat slightly safer on block, especially the heavier versions
- Make Sean Roll instant startup, make hurtbox lower
- Sean allow use of 236K in the air, make it grab invuln on startup, and increase it's hitbox size, especially around Sean's Hips
- Sean make DP, especially EX a better reversal
- Increase Hitstun on Sean 6HP so its 2 hits actually link
- Make Sean s.MK special cancelable
and now he'll never get that chance to do it ever. Good job, Mike. you played yourself.
trolled
what happened
@Skididdler yea when his board were negotiating the transfer of ownership from him after he got exposed he just fired them all
Cheren it’s more like a bunch of them walked, and the ones who were forced to remain for financial reasons got fired. Mike got to keep his company for a couple weeks and the former lab zero team got to keep a workforce with the new company, future club
He's innocent, he got played...
its a shame a chat i do not care about covers a fifth of the text
mikezsez.blogspot.com/2015/12/what-id-change-for-third-strike-upper-3s.html here you go
@@Bafael thanks!
@@omfgacceptmyname you replied two years later? smh
@@nonuvurbeeznus795 and I'll reply again bitchh
@@nonuvurbeeznus795 and I'll do it again bijch
What if.... fighting games released a frame adjuster? They released their games with the ability to self adjust frame data of moves.
Maybe not for competition which would be set but for non-competitive players to be able to tweak moves and basically customize their own fighting game
Obviously you can’t use that for online play, so it’d basically be limited to offline play goofing off with friends
Still, I think fighting games, and games in general, becoming easier to mod is always good
It isn't actually a massive leap from the tons of modifiers in Smash or dipswitches in 3S Online Edition. Creating your own characters has been a thing for a while from SoulCalibur (based on existing roster IIRC) to Rivals of Aether (basically totally original) too.
One shortcoming to avoid is being opaque though. Brawl's stickers were dynamic but limited to a weighting system which harmed potential for messing around, a good idea to avoid a 999+ hypothetical Metaknight destroying Subspace Emissary but you wouldn't be able to have too much power till you finished the game anyway. The limitation is more or less the same in future games with Miis (which could be customised in height and width which affected frame data as well) being the peak before Ultimate. Smash Ultimate does have spirits which allow you to perfect block to reflect projectiles (like Melee) but instead of being a mode, it is tied to something you have to equip which will always adjust your stats and combos.
You are freely able to select the spirits which might make Little Mac more competitive (better jumps?) but you need to spend time on assembling them (or organising them if you have em) only for them to have more balance implications.
Well im not talking straight character customization. Thats what fighting games have been trying to do for awhile but I think by design its really hard to implement.
Most fighting games are 1v1 competitive and with set balances (the set in stone foundation of characters) allowing players to try to customize usually leads to "optimum builds" ruining the whole idea of personalization anyway.
I was just talking about letting players alter frames themselves for fun. Im not a game designer so I don't know what limits would have to be in place like how closely animation is tied to the frames of a move. But simple things like 3s seans normals being shit and just tweaking them to be a little more even with other shotos. Give him a little more active frames or less recovery on certain moves on hit to give him more cancelable options.
If possible this would allow players to "fix" characters they feel need it for their own enjoyment and I don't know but would assume it wouldn't be too hard to do. Also maybe allow for stupid bullshit like making everything cancelable or gatling comboable or nothing cancelable and have a poke fighter.
@@paulc7400 It doesn't seem too crazy at all, but the barrier to cross is just giving us options to directly mess with things as specific as a cancel window which gets changed regularly by patches anyway and tons of games have custom options which can change this, sometimes even as a state you activate in game that can be affected further by attributes before the fight.
My assumption is that developers aren't interested wouldn't want to put the resources into presenting the information well or risk being unable to steer their fanbase to follow their exact structure.
That could be part of why Edition Select is pretty rare nowadays and was only thrown into SF4 at the very end with Omega as another distraction when SF5 was due to replace it.
Technically, old versions of Trials in SF5 work like an edition select as the attributes are unchanged from that point but curiously there isn't a menu to choose for casual matches almost 5 years on from the game's release.
Problem arises with animation frames, which you must accommodate if such a feature is to ever be acceptable. Especially sprite-based fighters. If you increase the startup frames, for example, the game needs to synthesise the extra frames. This can be done with 3D models because the animation data is there. 2D sprites don't have that and the game can't create in between frames from them.
Giving Alex cancels from low forward and crouch strong are also just looking at the character from the wrong perspective entirely. Instead of comparing him to Ken and trying to make him a bootleg boiler-plate shoto, one needs to consider his kit and the intent behind his design. His moves are meant to work in tandem with his Flash Chop but he has no good tools to hit flash chop. Literally all he needs to give his kit cohesion would be a fake chop (like the twins have fake palm) or being able to "Hammerfall Break" his Slash Elbow (Makoto and Sean already have something similar with Sean Tackle and Hayate cancels). This would give him some really interesting options once he gets in, rather than having to go for one of a couple one-shot mixups before being pushed out. A little surprised that a Potemkin player couldn't see the vision when considering this, but MikeZ is a crack smoker, so w/e.
I agree with most of this, but necro should get more buffs than just SA ajusts. He has a lot of really useless special moves that would benefit from a rebalance, along with MAYBE increasing his health pool.
Watching this today makes me sad.
I really like Mike's design philosophy, in doing away with needless half circle motions, removing inconsistencies, making useless stuff better and giving characters the tools they need to be viable. I'd like to see what kind of dmg/juggle Necro would get out of EX Shock.
We have the change list, some of dem ROM hackers should get on it XD
Now I wanna know what he would change on +R.
I honestly just want to see how his Q and Twelve would benefit from the buffs to them and their kit
What would this hypothetical tier list be like
No idea.
@@Bafael based and redpilled
I honestly wish that Alex could at least be good. He's such a cool character and he's the kind of grappler I like.
The things I would want from a patch would be:
-Alex having his cr.LK ->cr.MK like in 4rd
-Make Alex's cr.HP combo into Knee Smash. I could go and say that "SFV did it so why not here?" but I think it's just good to give Alex more threatening options when people get the jump on him. Like Kens and Akumas who can make quick work on him easily.
-Drop the startup of M Flash Chop from 15f to around 13f. This could allow Alex to combo from his Strong or Forward and allow for more ways to use Powerdrop and/or Supers.
-I would personally like Spiral DDTs to be faster and get an EX variant. Maybe make it work like a Grab version of Slash Elbow. Not only would it make DDT a lot more usable, but it can also make your opponent guess 50/50 when Alex dashes forward.
-Give Alex EX Powerbomb/Powerdrop like in 4rd.
-Make SA1 (Hyper Bomb) bar be smaller or stock 2 bars. The fact that it's a hefty 1 bar, cripples the utility of the super as well as just a waste since you can blow it on a super that's not even a 0f Super Grab. Granted, Hugo doesn't have a 0f Super Grab, but it's still bad.
-Have SA3 (Stun Gun Headbutt) Be invincible the full way through, but still can avoided with a jump on reaction. Or, have the Super be like an Anti-Air Super Grab. Maybe could combo into it from Alex's cr.HP. If we make the SA3 the same, but buffed in the former, Alex could still get his Super off while not losing to a mere jab or worse, and if they change the Super all together, it would be more practical overall.
That's personally what I would change.
As an obvious Alex main who’s been thinking of rebalancing this game for a decade I’ve thought about stuff like this for a while and can give some explanations as to why you can’t do some of these.
Comboing into medium chops an infinite. Because you often combo out of it with medium into chop.
Ex grabs would be worthless mainly because who’s spending bar on grabs. And his grabs aren’t that good when they’re free.
Hyper bomb with 2 bars exists; it’s boomerang raid. They’re both medium length 2 bar point blank supers with Frame 1-4 invincibility. You’d really need to just make hyper bomb work and actually need to change his other supers to fix them like changing boomerang raid to start with his ex elbow animation for range and consistency to make his supers not just the good one and the worse version.
Stun gun would be impossible to deal with in the corner. The block stun of elbow forces you to be only able to dash out but now you can’t dash in time because of the trajectory.
Stun gun might be the single worst designed move in the game even worse than blue nocturne because it’s bad but making it good makes it op and the move itself prevents Alex from having options he should have. It’d be better to be an electric snake esc move with good but not max stun with lots of bar starting with the normal headbutt grab.
@@Neogears1312 I think there could be a way to make it so that M.Chop can't be used twice.
I understand why you would say that, however, Alex can have a tough time opening defenses as it is, giving him a more rewarding Grab in general would help him a lot.
My point is that his other supers weren't even used. Hyper Bomb and SGHB are just garbage. Which leads to a very limited selection of viable supers, making him less fun.
It's not as of he's like Ken, Chun, or Yun, where they all clearly have that 1 super that is just superior to the rest. But Shippu Jinrai isn't really the only good super. All of Kens supers can be solid, it's just that SA3 brings results that the other don't. Same with Chun. Even though SA3 sucks ass, she still has the option of picking two other ones. Kikkosho is a solid super.
With Alex, you HAVE TO pick SA2, and even then, players put him at bottom 5 all the goddamn time.
And I be honest, even if Alex did have an infinite, I wouldn't be too opposed to that. In game that has shit like Urien's Unlockable Aegis Setups, Chun's threatening screen presence with meter, and a "Fun and Interactive" super name Genei Jin, he'd fit right in with those guys easy.
@@fogblades6811 1. I’d just make his normal grabs better
2. Kens other supers are actually really bad. They’re legitimately bottom 10. You’d have to buff them if you’re nerfing shippu.
3. Alex’s supers actually aren’t that bad, it’s the lack of tools to make them good. Shippu would be ass on Oro because he lacks any tool to make it good and yagoi dama would no longer be top 5 super on ken because Ken lacks the set up to do the unblockable. Alex with light chop super cancel turns hyper bomb legitimately into a top 10/15 super. Because off one jump in Alex always gets the corner gets oki can always confirm it and it instant kills everyone with Ibuki’s hp or less. And that’s without making it impossible to jump out off on reaction btw. It’s why stungun would need a change because you’d just combo into that and murder people. Alex’s supers need reworking because the ideal buffs to him make them have insane overlap.
4. Unblockables aren’t even unfair at all. They just sound unfair. Yang has one that leads to 50% off seiei enbu. No one even bothers because of the difficulty. This is also why oro and urien aren’t very popular despite this, it takes lots of skill and knowledge to actually apply these. Urien and oro have pretty poor confirms from range and limited combo tools so they get these big potential supers instead of the shippu style ones because they’re better at set play than Chun and ken.
Just giving some points. There’s no aggro but fixing 3s is a lot more nuanced than this because a lot of the cast’s problems aren’t immediately obvious to people. For example; you thought ken had good alternative supers and it was just shippu being busted. He really doesn’t at all riya did a new generation video and compare that version of shinryuken to third strikes which does nothing but hit hard and you’ll understand “oh yeah the current version will never compete with shippu even if it was 1 bar only”. And that’s the super that used to be good. Shoryureppa is straight up terrible. It does nothing right in any 3 game but have multiple bar. And even then it still costs way too much.
@@Neogears1312 I don't agree. Alex SA1 can be jumped after the screen freeze and can leave you open for damaging jump in combos. On top of that, it's one long bar of meter. SA3 might as well not be an option considering that anyone who has a good DP or a fast enough dash speed can literally make you waste your bar of meter and possibly punished for daring it use it. Sure, stun kills. But the super is so garbage, it's arguably contested as one of the worst supers in the game. You can't even combo into it like Sean's SA3 with certain characters.
And even then, SA2 can miss grabs due to the pushback on the hits. If you're just a tad too far away, you're gonna miss the grab and be open for an attack. It's really pitiful that even Alex's best Super Art, still manages to fumble the ball when you really want it to work the most.
This feels weird lmao. Although I will say he did have a great proposition for this game.
Yeah. Mike Z-a legend.
Also an asshole
twitter.com/ClickAgain/status/1297622837541261312
@@gallo123 That doesn’t have anything to do with his Third Strike rebalances tho. This could still be a great list of potential changes.
That's true. People are mature enough to separate the idea from the idealist when it comes to this stuff. While he did really stupid stuff to warrant trouble, a lot of his propositions in this list is still compelling to this day.
@@hurricanemixer Yeah I agree with you, I was talking to the guy who called him a legend
Is anyone ever gonna get on this? It’d be a dream.
yeah like a fan patch at least ? have you found something?
simon995pci 4th strike
@@5ryce did they put these changes in?
@@quantumpotato yeah somewhat. when it got released people then realized they don’t wanna play balanced 3rd strike and kept playing the normal version
@@5ryce more like they didnt bother on trying it. since it is not an official patch people mostly dont care for it. the time to do it was during the online edition release. now it is too late for it and people are used with the og version.
Plenty of good ideas, i think removing gaining meter from whiffing moves should be removed in general as it is. It's pretty dumb seeing people just standing there throwing out moves full screen just for meter. Spend less time doing that and more time actually trying to hit each other.
Most of the buffs for the low tier chars i can agree with , they won't even be game breaking and those same chars would probably still be low/middle tier after those buffs.
Idk if he mentioned buffing 12's damage but that is something 12 desperately needs besides the overall extensive list of buffs he needs, same goes for Q.
Idk why he thinks Elena's SAII needs some sort of mechanic change to juggle airborne opponents better or do more damage but I don't think that's necessary.
One thing that should be done overall that I don't think is looked at enough closely on this list is the length and stocks of all SAs on the entire roster.
Tired of seeing SAIII ken, SAII chun, SAIIIYun etc. etc?
changes should be made to the other SAs of each char to make them more viable and attractive to players.
2 of the biggest turn offs is 1 stock and bar lengths on SAs. Since ex moves are a huge part of the game, almost nobody picks the ones that have only 1 stock.
I wouldn't say to remove 1 stock SAs completely, because there are some that are powerful enough as it is that it dominates player choices, but overall most people pick the same SA regardless of the matchup and it's just a shame.
Personally I like to rotate through the SAs just to add a little variety because after playing for a while you can get bored doing the same thing repetitively
I think whiffing to gain meter is mostly an acceptable mechanic. Matches in SF3 are already fast paced and pretty aggressive as is. Parry usually ensures that running away, zoning by throwing fireballs and spamming whiffs isn’t very effective.
And it seems to me like the only high level characters that spam whiffs to an obnoxious degree is mostly Chun, which could be massively disincentivized if you just made Chun’s most used supers one bar.
I think that only hurts characters. For starters what gets Chun li to approach you? Her win condition is poke you out. But then why would you approach her? without meter being built this way neither player would want to interact. This is what good defensive mechanics do. Just parries or whiffing for meter creates a boring passive game. Just parries means you're discouraged to take risks as every thing you do can just reward a more passive player and you're not gonna use projectiles. Just whiffs makes a over glorified snowball fight until someone gets bar first. But both? I can't stay back now; he's slowly gaining resources and if i try to stop him with a hadoken he gains MORE. I have to stop him from doing that or else it's going to make things harder for me! That's why it matters and that's why it should stay.
Sean
Ex roll
Faster ex tackle
Ball trajectory?
A close fierce like 2i that can slow down if you spam it or reduce the damage if not . Or just make far fierce good.
Fix his normals. They suck.
Possibly speed up his kicks and let them go into super but with a little less damage and reduced time to confirm from second impact
Make sa1 charge or something.
Better ex uppercut. Include the followup hit.
Q_Q I love 3rd Strike and this is like salt in a wound that won't heal! Just a little rebalancing is all we need for a 'modern' version.
Mike Z has always stressed that Half-Circle motions should never exist (perhaps except for stuff like Red Fireball).
Joseph Polk i mean half circles are pretty easy in my opinion, maybe its just because im an anime player and half circles are the least of my issues
Well I find it easy as well (though that's probably because I play analog), but Mike Z has always stressed this because there are people who find half circles difficult and quarter circles much easier.
I like half circles I'm not a fan of double half circle motions for supers
Finn Marr-Heenan double half circles are really weird, 720s feel easier for me haha
My problem with half circles is that there really fucking annoying without a stick
Take a shot everytime you hear “I’m not against that.” or “I agree with that.”
When you realize this post is from 2015
I love this comment section
i don't like scaling unblockable damage, i don't think they're that broken as is. by reducing the damage you're still leaving in the fundamentally "unfair" mechanic where the opponent has to eat damage off certain setups, but making the attacker (Urien/Oro) shittier.
i think changing Chun's super to 1 stock and cr. MK cancel window smaller are both necessary. she still has amazing normals and a great kara throw, as well as nice mixups (+corner carry!) off her SA2 ender...still a very, very good character.
with Ken i also agree that you shouldn't reduce damage on SA3...it's already pretty unsatisfactory-looking in terms of damage IMO. the fact that's it's 3f...i think a lot of supers are really fast, just chun/ken have ones that also travel horizontally very quickly. it might be a better idea to make certain normals safe on hit, so chun SA2/ken SA3 can't blow them up.
lowering priority on Yun's super makes more sense. i would have said to lower the timer, as i'm not a fan of any fighting game where one player is pressing buttons for a long stretch of time while the other one does nothing...but i guess if you were to change the priority AND the timer, it would be pretty lame.
i can see both arguments on Urien's SA1, but i guess he's trying to make it a very strong super to compete with SA3, which is what makes Urien very good. i do like urien having EX options, though.
...as a Hugo player I cannot agree to Akuma having throw-invuln f+MP. :(
Yeah, Yang's close MK won't launch opponents if it's meaty. the later active throws don't launch. it's kinda cool, you can still SJC into super, so it lets you create combos not normally possible. (supering on a grounded opponent)
forward throw for Oro is a no-brainer. i think in 2i he had it? but the animation was super weird.
i'll write more later. already wrote too much...
+onreload The goal was to change the game as little as possible, so rather than removing it I chose to make them less good. No-unblockables was tried in the console version, and it was unilaterally WORSE. If you do that Urien drops very far, just from that one change.
Also, they aren't just Urien and Oro - Ibuki, Sean, and Dudley have situational ones.
Oh my feeling is to not change them at all, leaving unblockables in is very important to me (and Urien's integrity.) So dissatisfying to try Urien unblockables on home versions. Ibuki has the air kunai -> crossup super unblockable, right? i don't know sean or dudley's
+onreload Basketball or rose to crossup, you'll never ever see them in real games.
And yeah, but they're a stupid THING to have. It's just that they became important for Urien and Oro, so removing them entirely is not an option. Allowing Urien to kill you because he hit you once with full bar is just as bad as Chun in that specific situation.
+MikeZWasTaken I guess if you're going to talk about changing Makoto's guess-right-twice 100% type situation, then yeah, lowering Urien's damage output on the unblockables makes sense. I sometimes forget how these look at high-level play, where a good Mak/Chun/Urien can consistently land these setups and annihilate someone by making them guess wrong a few times. It's especially difficult to pull off as Urien, I think
@@onreload fuck you, urien doesn't have fucking integrity.
I thought you could block Oro's command grab though.
You can. If you're referring to the Makoto SA3 change, what he's saying is Makoto can't block during this super at all, so it should be changed to where she can at least block un-parryable moves.
14:00
I thought Gou Rasen was SAIII, not SAII
How come we haven't seen a rom hack of 3s yet with these changes? Surely it could work on ggpo?
I wouldn't shorten Akuma's bars on SA2, that would just mean quicker Raging Demon/KKZ. I'd just restore SA2 to its Second Impact version (which had a lot more more hits, actually LOOKED powerful, and did more damage).
> “looks like a post modern tier list“
> puts yun below ken and chunli
Lol
Nearly all those changes sound healthy and well thought out.
Here is what i would consider doing in addition.
System.
Excessive Juggles - Combos longer than Xhits or Ydamage or Zstun, can be air teched like in sfAlpha. Cost is one EX worth of meter. *you still have to parry on the way down but now its not 'just watch your character die'.*
Chun-Li.
Tensei Ranka (SAIII) should always have all the hits connect *given its low damage and limited use.*
Yun.
Genei Jin (SAIII) should be a max length super bar, and retain the usual timer duration. *It is too dominating and game changing to let it be activated off of two block strings.*
Makoto.
If we get cancels for Tanden Renki (SAIII) or other 'changed state' supers, let the timer still tick down and allow the super to be reactivated during that time as well. Turning the meter on costs 5% of the total meter each time.
Urien.
If you parry an unblockable setup, allow the defending player to tech a throw attempt. Currently, *if you parry an unblockable setup, urien can throw you out of that parry state and this throw cannot be teched.*
Akuma.
Better damage reduction after KKZ reset. *It should not hurt that much since you landed it during a juggle.*
Make the first hit of KKZ parry-able but with difficult timing.
Ibuki.
If Yami Shigure (SAIII) gains 2 stocks of meter, then her dizzy hits and damage would need a review. *Yami Shigure with more meter would be excessively good for stunning and also weak given how drastic her damage scaling is for longer combos and combos using special moves.*
Slightly increase damage of standing LK xx MK. *This is her weakest damage combo in the game.*
Slightly reduce damage scaling for Ibuki's longer combos, by changing her air target combos to behave as one hit instead of two, to encourage their use. *Presently it makes sense to do standing MK xx Raida (command hit-grab) in nearly every situation.*
Allow Ibuki to parry during Tsujii Goe (moonsault flip). She is very open during this move. *This would enable different setups given the spacing and descent of Tsujii Goe.*
Allow Ibuki to parry during the descent following her Kazekiri (uppercut) on hit/parry but not on block/whiff. *When Kazekiri hits, the enemy can simply SRK her follow ups, this would give her defensive options instead of making Kazekiri unusable vs SRK.*
Increase the damage from max distance single hit Kazekiri (LK, MK, HK). *it is very low.*
Increase hit stun when connecting with Kasumi Suzaku (SAI). *If ibuki is high in the air there are many situations where you must choose to not do full damage unless you want to get punished when you land.*
Change the direction you are required to hold when using EX kunai version 2 as a crossup. *currently you must hold away instead of toward*
Change Ibuki's taunt *so she is completely safe from air-throws/throws* when it connects. (assuming she gets to air parry during the descent).
Increase the damage bonus given by Ibuki's taunt by 25%. Since you must give up an opportunity to do guaranteed damage now and the taunt requires Ibuki to be close range, *the Taunt bonus should be greater than simply doing the same combo twice.*
Allow Ibuki's Taunt to hit crouching opponents as an overhead. Also slightly increase the delay before the active frames so the enemy can react. *this increases her offensive options at varying ranges.*
Slightly increase the hit stun from Hien (penguin kicks) on hit, but not on block/whiff/parry, *so characters cant always dash under before ibuki can attack.*
Allow regular Kunai to auto correct if the opponent dashes under ibuki after Hien (penguin kicks) on block/parry.
Allow ibuki to air parry after Hien (penguin kicks) on hit/parry/block, but not on whiff. *she is very open.*
Reduce or remove the 'hit as crouching' penalty when hitting Ibuki during her FF dash and command dash (Kasumi Gake). Its already risky enough with counter hit damage. bugfix. *if makoto does Fukiage during ibuki's FF dash, it can 1 hit kill ibuki.*
Force the second hit of her standing far HP xx HP target combo to always connect if the first hit connects. *The first hit can land from too far away for the second hit to land*
Air LP xx HP target combo and air HP does not put Gill/Urien/Hugo in a turn around state, as such *it cannot be followed up with Yoroi Doushi (SAII).*
Make air HP cause the enemy to force-stand on hit, so ibuki can follow up with Yoroi Doushi (SAII) if the enemy failed to defend.
Allow the third hit of standing LK xx MK xx HK to be high jump cancelable. *to be in line with other versions of her standing HK.*
Allow the third hit of standing far LP xx MP xx toward+LK to be command dash and high jump cancelable. *so its not just a low damage spacing tool*
Increase damage of Yami-Shigure(SAIII) to always do full damage and stun regardless of how many daggers hit the enemy. *given the spread of the daggers combined with distance to the enemy and width of the enemy, it is difficult to force all the daggers to hit*
Found the ibuki main
That air tech change is lame and is against the spirit of 3s
This list is so ass I cant even describe how ass it is
If Q is much worse than Dudley, why is Q so popular in low level play? Not shade, genuine question. I see a lot more Q than Dudley.
There's a lot of reasons. Q is easier than dudley. Q has a cooler character design than dudley. Q is a "grappler" in a game with almost no grapplers while dudley's play style has zero identity (rushdown oki in a game where everyone is rushdown oki). People also like playing low tiers, and if you were gonna play a high tier you'd probably more readily go to ken/mak/chun/Yun than dudley since all of them are better and more interesting for one reason or another (Chun for lame, Yun for technical, Ken for easy, Makoto for grappler). Q has a lot of identity. Really it's the same reason there's a lot of zangief or Hugo players despite the fact that they're frequently low tiers.
@@Bafael I see. This is why I love the “Buff more than nerf” mindset because some people, especially in not the highest level, play characters that just look cool and have good concept, even if the move set or drama data is horrible. If we buff weak but cool characters, the skill ceiling for players who choose low tier characters drastically increases.
Also, Q is really fun to play, and he forces you to learn the game mechanics because that's all he has for him. For instance, you can win a game with a top tier character without parrying once, which is pretty unlikely with Q.
I like MikeZ's list of changes but for Q, looking at the first 2, it feels like, though it would make Q a much better character, it kinds of make him a "normal" fighter, the effective approach would take him away from his quirky fight style. To keep his playstyle fitting his weirdo persona, i'd pick crouching hp as the cancellable low instead of the more standard mk. I'd make so that his back+hk launches higher so that when cancelled into super, the super would hit (as is, the super cancel is useless as it whiffs). It would be super quirky but allow to confirm super from a low from a standing position, which would be fun and unique. Also, though i'm not too much for changing motions for specials, i was thinking, if the motion for the slaps was changed for, say, reverse dp, it would not overlap with the command grab and allow to kara the command grab easily with b+mp, which would give q a very powerful tool.
Also, making the slaps super cancellable on the first hit would give Q an easy confirm at the cost of damage, similar to 12's sa1 combo from a.x.e.
Oh and i forgot one urgent thing to change : Q is the one and only character for which the last hit of houyokusen is a red parry instead of a regular parry. I mean, come on, give the robot a break...
Scaling meter on wiff. And fix the parry bug where you can still parry between that 29 game cool down window
good. get rid of 4s on fightcade and put this version in if it ever gets made lol. hes got some good odeas
Absolutely
I think makoto should get throw invincibility on some move of hers during tanden renki to beat unparriable hit grabs (but not the down down akuma super)
Much as I don't care for Mike Z or his precious waifu-fighter Skullgirls, this is a seriously good read. This needs to happen with like a rom hack or something in the future.
Eh with the SAII change on Akuma that would be iffy because raging demon and kkz are available with all of akuma's super arts. If one of the supers have shorter bars those two supers will be easier to get compared to the other 2 supers he has.
Necro does have a setup into Slam Dance, but it's like the worst setup and doing b.mk/b.hk > ex spin punch does more damage than going into slam dance in that situation
Did Mike Z forget that Sean's tornado kicks are punishable on hit or did I miss that?
The easier access to KKZ and demon is exactly the point! His idea was that choosing a bad super (in his opinion) could be mitigated by giving Akuma that benefit that the other supers don't have.
Come to think of it, he will have the standard super more quickly too, not just the two hidden ones.
I respect Mike Z but for example if a character can do unblockables then that must be taken into consideration when balancing that character and should be put out in the characters special moves so that everyone knows. also some things if you try make them to perfect it ruins them for some unfathomable reason.
Did this really happen or was somebody just wishing.
It never happened. Mike Z simply made a mental exercise of designing a rebalance of 3S, using his experience of the game as a player, and his experience as a fighting game game designer. Hypothetically, if Iron Galaxy called him for 3SOE, and if IG wanted to rebalance the game like they wanted (or should have, IMO), that's how OE would have resulted.
Should have just shortened the duration of gen'ei jin duration and/or lenthen the bar.
I personally think that whiffing normals is such a massive part of the more popular characters, that I personally think it should stay
Getting rid of that would be terrible because then you’d never want to come to the opponent because your approach tools would be parried. Without whiffed meter gain the game becomes incredibly passive and people who think it should go play either very meter unreliant characters or characters that really suck at building meter and blame the game for it.
@@Neogears1312 that’s aggressive, they just think it would make chun and yun less OP
@@Matt_lambie yeah but plenty of characters benefit from it just as much with just as strong of a move to back it up like Urien Ryu and especially Yang who doesn’t even need the whole bar filled. They only think fuck those two and never consider how much lamer the game would play.
Fuck. That X-COPY change is really beastly. That can make him the best character of the game, even breaking it, I´m not kidding.
X-COPY is a great super, maybe one of the best of the game, but Is Twelve who uses it, that´s the problem. Just try using against Akuma, Hugo, Alex, and see what I say. You can destroy them with 3 pokes. I use it against shotos mainly because their normals are really good and at least I can do the basic combos.
As an Alex main I liked his changes. I mean Jesus Christ absolutely 90% his actions are unsafe even on block, and a lot of his moves are useless.
Yun changes might look a bit overkill. I mean he is OP but c´mon.
Xcopy sucks wdym
@@harryvpn1462 yeah it does
The u vowel in Chunli and Yun is pronounced with a "oo" sound btw (Choon-lee and Yoon).
That aside, I wish I could've thought of changes like that.
Nah. Chun like bun
@@popo237 COW COW
@@Abigdummy4life covid covid
Akuma stun value buff is the litmus test for never letting this person anywhere near an actual balance team.
rumor has it 12 and Sean were overpowered before 3S release, and capcom nerfed them without enough testing.
Sean was the top tier in second impact and that's why he got nerfed
@@jsj1288 actually not really. Top 6 yeah but ibuki akuma Dudley yang and ryu were just better still. People just think he was top tier because he was so much better but really by 2I standards he’s just great. 2I is a game where ken was mid tier, and he’s fundamentally no different from his 3s self. The cast was so good a 3s top tier was only mid.
@@Neogears1312 Nah, I think sean was top 3 with akuma and ibuki.
@@NotoriousYEETER Ryu was generally better as a Shoto. You think Denjin is amazing now? try two bars. with more damage.
Twelve didn't even exist prior to 3s...
It really sucks that this guy was being a FGC savant for more than a decade, posting on forums, entering tournaments, sharing hotel rooms with people at Evo and other majors, building his own game, promoting his own game, crowdfunding his own game after it was spiked by Konami, getting people in the FGC jobs at his company, and then 3 other employees at his company and a vtuber claimed he made them feel uncomfortable in conversations from a few spread out incidents over several years. Then they deleted all of their claims from twitter a week later. Glad we'll never have to hear from Mike Z again! What an asshole!
Mike z is one of the worst cases ik of cancel culture and it sad to see
A few incidents spread out through *10* years, mind you. *10!*
It took them that long to speak out, *surely* their claims hold merit - right? Right?...
what even were the claims? all ive ever heard about mike z is "hes a creep" "hes and asshole" and nothing in specific.
@@iop223 Everyone involved deleted their claims shortly after posting them. Looking at his twitter, after everything went down Mike posted about autism awareness and working for free on the GGXXAC+R netcode. The replies to these posts are mostly people calling him trash. He's vanished from the internet since. To his credit, he never apologized.
@@Vitomazzarino I hope he's okay.
As far as I'm concerned, we got all the more reason to never support Autumn Games from now on...
lol
what happened
ya
Baf, whats the origin link to this thread?
based mike z
43:14 I was on board intill this. wft this literally ruins the game!
uhh… how?
Oof
I would change many things on this game, but mainly what makes it so different from other SF: parry. It is too lenient and there is no risk. You can actually parry then block in the next 10 frames. It stays active for longer than any button.
Parry should have a startup (so you don't wake-up parry meaties or parry a cross up) and a recovery, and then you go back to regular SF where you either blocking and take some chip damage, or you take risk for a big reward.
Ideally, parry should be a version of CVS2 parry in exchange for the risk.
Then we have something that pleases all players. Imagine gathering all alpha, ST and 3d players under the same roof. Change the meters to alpha 2 style and you are done.
I love 3s and I'd never touch your version of the game lol
So you would not play CVS2? Oh... Kay... And still, this video is a about a considerably large and significant list of changes for the game you love. And you didn't know who MikeZ was.
@@RafTube1 Hes just saying he disagree with your changes of the game, also he does not need to know the whole history of someone just to agree with there ideas.
@@RafTube1 someone's salty......
@@RafTube1 not only was your take bad and took no consideration for player skill or original developer intent, you also have no tolerance for people not agreeing with you. You’re “balance” ideas are always doomed to suck if you can’t at least fix that second one.
Did Bafael never hear about Mike Z? Not even about his Makoto? ... Oh you have, shit. I should finish watching the video before I comment...
*Edit*: Also, slight clarification, Shippu is 1 frame startup (or 2f if you include the first active). LiSyaoran made a great video about the stuff it can punish: ruclips.net/video/u5jKI99wLzw/видео.html
If a move hits on the second frame, it has 2f startup
+MystyrNile in 3s terminology that's a "1 frame start up"
Not so hard to rebalance it. Remove one of Chun's sa2 bars, so she only has one. Remove her kara throw.
Make it so that Yun doesn't bild meter as fast.
Get rid of Makoto's sa2 stun 0-100 insta death combo. And maybe for Ken, you take away his kara srk, or ability to super off of anything.
Then you could buff some of the weaker characters a bit, and done. The game is fine the way it is basically, just get rid of what's broken.
I’m glad you aren’t doing anything to balance the game. Your takes a fuckin dog shit. They’re so terrible at properly addressing issues and your low tier fix is “lol just buff em i guess whatever”
That's basically what that list was all about. Most of what Mike Z pointed out are bugfixes.
"I already like this guy" Ah time makes fools of us all.
Fingers crossed Mike wins the entire case 🤞
3rd Strike would be so unbelievably ass if characters couldn't whiff for meter. Some characters would be outright unplayable, the game would lose a ton of nuance and it would take forever to get the meter to do anything. Removing this feature just because some strong characters benefit from it more is like trying to kill a fly with a sledgehammer.
This did not age well.
Why?
I personally feel it should be left as it is. Mike Z is just a fan, has never made a quality game at the level of Capcom game designers
Why what happened?
@@quickcar5255 skullgirls is a goddamn capcom level game and a lot more balance and polished too comparing it to the most of mvc specifically mvc3
@@jessISaRicePrincess I was referring to titles like Super Turbo, CVS2, 3S, etc.
@@jessISaRicePrincess I swear I replied to this. First of all, Mike doesn't even work on Skullgirls. Two, he's a Sex Pervert. Three, they tried to get him to leave so he fired everyone.
this video retroactively is so fucking cursed lmao
like, it's a great balance list, but mike z makes me feel sooo uncomfortable lol.
Just because he got screwed over by a bunch of opportunist artists and a furry?
No thank you, feel uncomfortable all you want to tho, but you really shouldn't...
Ppl thinking he is a bad person cuz of the stupid joke he made is very very stupid, given the age of the comment, we didnt know about the other way worse shit he did back then
@@bfFAN221 he's not gonna hire you dawg
Doesn't have to, nor would I want him to... doesn't stop me from empathizing with the man and his situation.
Speaking of which, my poor summer child @@pachicore - how does it feel being proven wrong?
@@bfFAN221 shut your corny ass up your bum ass still aint hired by him
hue
As much as I can appreciate him trying to balance the game, I don't think 3S should ever be touched. One of the reasons why I like this game so much is because of how unique all of the characters are, flaws included. By covering up some of the weaknesses, it starts to make the characters feel a bit more homogenous. There is a similar thing going on with Tekken 7 right now, where newer characters get most, if not all, of the essential tools. And with the balance changes, older characters are gaining new tools they didn't have in previous games. The result is a large cast of characters that has very little to differentiate themselves.
If the balance of the game becomes normalized, you end up missing out on some really hype moments. Pierrot's run at Coop Cup in 2018, Kuroda being Kuroda, KO taking out a whole team with Yang, etc. We don't see that happen very often with newer games because everyone goes into a fair fight by design.
Balance doesn’t equal homogeny. A game can still be balanced and have character with crazy tools and weakness. Look at GGXXAC+R.
Really? Balancing does not make it homogeneous and to use your tekken example tekken is very different game you can't just add a very out there tool you have to make them quite similar because of the moves in tekken and other full 3d fighting games like doa, virtua fighter, soul calibur are so many
So you just want 12 to never exist...
Garou released the same year as 3s with a cast that’s so balanced Garou’s equivalent to Sean not only is played more than their equivalent to Chun li the bottom tier Tizoc has a winning match up against a top tier and is perfectly viable.
In a game with two tae kwon do characters that are literally two halves of an already existing fatal fury characters movelist there’s still not one character who plays remotely the same.
Balance doesn’t cause homogenization. You can make bowser viable in melee. It’s not gonna suddenly make fox and marth unfun because there’s more unique options.
Solution: just buff all the low tier characters to have significantly higher damage. Or the very least give Ibuki better normals.
Way too many changes. Only 1 longer bar for chuns saii and one fix on yuns sa3 (like less damage or longer super bar keeping super uptime the same)
3s has a lot of flaws
@@Eggroll3s 3s fans refuse to admit this game has a lot of ironing out that it could use.
We really shouldn't be engaging with Mike Z and a member of the FGC anymore.
Boo-fuckity-hoo.
Shove your cancel/r culture where the sun don't shine...
@@bfFAN221 The dude is a racist and a creep. It isn't a call to delete him off of existence. We just shouldn't really be uplifting things he does. It's hurtful and doesn't show compassion to black folks or women. And last a checked we got over calling things cancer because it's fucking stupid.
@@yoyovvitch True, but keep in mind, this video is 5 years old. The Mike Z controversy is from 2020.
Regardless of how you see Mike as a person people can discuss his ideas. This is a 6 year old hypothetical list anyway
Although I agree, this video is:
A: way before the controversy
B: not about him directly
I don't get why MikeZ is talking about rebalancing 3s. It's over a decade old, we already like it as it is and he already rebalanced his own game into oblivion. 3s players just want a sequel.
+Tim Bell rebalanced his own game? since when? you mean all the way back in 2013? when he added the much needed dizzy bar so that combos in SG weren't so freaking long?
Tim Bell Well, yeah. Been waiting long enough.
Cause it fun to theory craft
"we already like it as it is" speak for yourself. 3s isn't perfect. What really is the difference between a sequel and a romhack for 3s? The capcom seal of approval? lol.
I assume that you're some moron ken main. We would like to be able to play other characters.
Baf, and how exactly he is going to "re-write" the program's code? he will need to reverse engineer the entire game, and inject opcodes into it as an extra lines of code. Reprograming the chip alone will take him some time, not to mention the coding itself. Better fish for Capcom to open source the game than RE the entire thing.
you can just make a rom hack of the game, really
I mean 4S exists
Spot the virgin sheesh
@@jasonjean5333 lol?
It should be one button to throw, just as it is in every previous Street Fighter game except for Alpha 3 (and it should be one button to throw in Alpha 3 too, obviously).
That's a completely terrible suggestion lol. Throws actually have a purpose in 3s as they're a vital part of the parry mixup, so removing throw whiffs or not forcing players to commit to throws as a read would destroy the core mixup. With your system I could literally do close strong on my opponent's wakeup as oro that would throw their block or parry while launching them if they tried to jump or backdash out to avoid the throw. All meaties would just throw parry attempts and make the already strong okizeme literally zero risk for the guy pushing the pressure. You're removing the main defensive option from the game that has almost no other defensive options
@@Bafael "That's a completely terrible suggestion lol."
It's not a suggestion, it's simply the way it should have been. Changing how the game is fundamentally controlled after the umteenth entry in the series is asinine. It's like changing "up to jump" to "press a button to jump," or changing "back to block" to "press a button to block," and so on.
"Throws actually have a purpose in 3s"
Throws "actually" have a purpose in all Street Fighter games, and in all but 2 of the real-arcade-hardware ones, it's one button to throw.
The rest of your post is nonsense. Two buttons to throw instead of one just alters the "execution barrier;" anything that can be done with one-button throws can be done with two-button throws once they become reflexive muscle memory.
@@MaximRecoil Are you stupid? There's a huge gameplay difference with two button throws, it's not just ease of execution. One button throws have no throw whiff animation. A one button throw becomes a close strong or close fierce or something if the opponent is unthrowable. Two button throws actually have a punishable animation where you throw nothing if the opponent is unthrowable. This means with 1 button throws you are simultaneously option selecting a close normal if the opponent does something to become unthrowable. In KoF for example, Kyo can do a throw with f+C, and if the opponent jumps or backdashes out it turns into a close C which hits them out of their jump or backdash. If you want a street fighter example, then in SF2, O. Ken can do DP motion, forward, HK, and then the next frame LP. If the opponent does anything that's unthrowable (for example, a reversal) then ken gets f+HK, which is instantly kara'd into an uppercut with more invincibility. So if the opponent is throwable, ken throws, and if the opponent is unthrowable, i.e. not blocking, ken uppercuts them.
Scenarios like this are impossible in a game with two button throws (where failed throw attempts result in a whiff) which means there's an actual mixup where players have to commit to their read instead of being able to option select. That's why every street fighter and almost all fighting games in general moved to two button throws.
@@Bafael "Are you stupid?"
Comical Irony Alert
"There's a huge gameplay difference with two button throws, it's not just ease of execution."
No, Slow Doug, it's _only_ an ease of execution difference.
"One button throws have no throw whiff animation. A one button throw becomes a close strong or close fierce or something if the opponent is unthrowable. Two button throws actually have a punishable animation where you throw nothing if the opponent is unthrowable."
No, simpleton, there is no universal law of nature which demands any such thing; it's entirely decided by the people who programmed the game, i.e., a 1-button throw could just as easily be programmed to have a "throw whiff animation" rather than becoming "a close strong or close fierce or something if the opponent is unthrowable," though that would be stupid, given that it's a departure from how the previous SF games worked. Likewise, a 2-button throw could just as easily be programmed to not have a "throw whiff animation," and it would just become whatever normal strike is assigned to whichever of the 2 buttons was pressed first.
The fundamentals of how a game is controlled should never be changed in sequels. If you want to change the fundamentals, make a new game that's not a sequel to anything.
The rest of your post is more pure nonsense because your premise is faulty; your faulty premise being:
Because differences exist; those differences are somehow inherent to 2-button throws vs. 1-button throws.
The differences obviously aren't inherent; they are solely determined by the games' programmers. The only _inherent_ difference between 2-button and 1-button throws is ease of execution.
@@MaximRecoil This is such an unbelievably bad faith argument. You're technically correct, developers can put a one button throw with a throw whiff animation into the game, like Mortal Kombat Deception's throw button for example. But *YOU* weren't talking about those throws, you were talking about one button throws like SF Alpha, SF2, and SF EX, where it's towards/away plus a button to throw, where they turn into normals and have no whiff animation. And because you were talking about *THOSE* one button throws, I explained why *THEY* were bad for the series, particularly why *THEY* are bad for SF3 where they shit on parrying. I'm telling you why what you want is bad because it encourages option selects that make the offense of the game overpowered and don't work with the other system mechanics.
Also there's nothing harder executionally about hitting 2 buttons vs 1 lol, so IDK why you keep saying execution is a factor at all.
I don't know why I'm even bothering to reply because you're very clearly ignoring the examples I'm giving. I don't think 1 button throws are inherently bad but they allow for option selects which 2 button throws don't, and those option selects would be extremely terrible for the okizeme of this game.
rename to how to ruin the fun of 3S
Yeah, because dealing with Chun and Mak is REALLY fun
@@dekuskrub2154 Chun and Yun you mean
@@fgcpeak9591 all 3 tbh
fun is playing around with only high tiers and making fun of sean about how bad he is
No thanks, just leave it as it is.
thank god they canceled this dude, those changes are awful, leave 3s broken, respect the legacy, move on
Trash take. Why leave it broken when the game can be better. 3S is out on a pedestal but it's grossly imbalanced and the game could be brought to 'perfection'. Admitting the game is broken and refusing to fix it is a bad mentality. 3S will continue to exist even if a fixed version was made.
Keep your legacy while also letting a better version exist and breath new life into it. Draw new blood into it because now more variety exists among the roster.
Shitlord take, on both ends...
I wonder if this guy has ever gotten chipped by chun li sa2
Idiots like you piss baf off more than anything you know. He’s openly stated people who think this game shouldn’t be improved when ever possible are the worst and ruined the potential for fighting games.
>Brazilian
>Tekken player
Opinion discarded
Or move on to the new games. Learn to evolve.
I did move on to new games and so did most other 3s players. But me adapting to sf4 doesn't mean I stop liking 3s or that sf4 suddenly is outright better than 3s.
Imagine if my favorite food was blueberries. Imagine if all of a sudden blueberries became very rare and hard to buy while everyone else switched over to eating strawberries. I like strawberries too but I still like blueberries more no matter how much of both I eat. I'd still NEVER get people coming up to me and saying things like "you need to learn to like strawberries more instead. You should adapt/evolve as a person." I have a favorite, man. it's not from lack of knowledge or exposure.
Dont be that guy
lol
@@Bafael Is there a mod with these proposed changes in?