I played a campiagn where the whole party were mages because we thought it was cool writing your own spells is a core part of being a mage. Thankfully, I barely rolled a noble, but in spite of that fact I was doing the heavy lifting of the group (as a psychic branch mage btw) because out of the three of us, I was the most physically capabale. The water and darkness mage was missing an arm, the light and illusion mage was missing a leg, and I was compeltly colorbind with 4 mental illnesses (all due to table rolling ofc). We were the three stooges of magic, in a low fantasy, low magic world that feared and hated mages and it was glorious.
The Foundry VTT system module is really well done if looking to automate a lot of the mechanical busywork. It does feel like one of those systems that caters to a small, yet devoted player base.
Dwarves and Elfs being literal 1-2 percent chance makes me think its suppose to emulate mysterious "fare-folk" in medieval folklore but also its a filter to weed out people who want to be special
For some reason I decided to sign up for a session of this game at a tiny local gaming convention and I leaned 2 things. First, the individuals at the table had been playing this game at this con as a kind annual friend’s reunion for years. That’s fine, they were nice and inclusive, but I couldn’t shake the vague feeling that I’d walked into something like a geriatric nudist colony where everyone is proudly on display doing what they do, but I’m suddenly very conscious of where my eyes and hands are at all times. The second thing I learned is that, although I could never enjoy this level of granularity in a game I play regularly, it was somewhat of a beautiful anthropological exercise to observe this very special breed of nerd in their natural habitat. I left the experience feeling as if I’d watched an exquisitely intricate tea ceremony for math perverts. Perhaps it is more trouble than I’d be willing to go to for a cup of tea, but I can still respect the quiet dignity of their culture.
Games this complex make me wanna watch a session where the players know the rules like the backs of their hands, that could be amazing. I also wonder if such a group has ever existed for games this complex
Me Too! One Person who could do just that is Trevor Duvall from Me Myself and Die. He really adores this game, has played it for many years and runs a very good actual play channel in which he shows all the rolls and still edits the sessions down making them tightly paced yet entertaining. But in a recent stream he made it very clear that he would never use Harn as a system for his videos, because it is too crunchy XD
TBF the _setting_ books are pretty system agnostic, so one might use a different system. Though in terms of groups using complex systems, I think the most batshit case I am aware of is Aaron Allston's famous long-running Champions campaign. At one point he somehow managed to oversee a massive brawl featuring around a _100_ characters - using Champions aka the Hero System.
Way back in the early ninties, if not for a few months, Harn would have been my first ttrpg experience. However i instead joined a 2e dnd that tragically ran on the same day as harn, and in time lost the other guys contact details.
I've actually played small campaign with it, wasn't that bad. However, we later changed to WFRP2 and just added some rules from Harn, and they fit pretty good
The character creation reminds me of _Pendragon_ , where you can - with enough supplements - effectively roll for the entire history of your family. Speaking of Pendragon, I'd probably run this setting using some derivative of BRP (probably Mythras).
Alright, I recently found your channel and I've been going through a bunch of your videos. I genuinely appreciate your critical takes on the hobby and games I wouldn't have heard of otherwise. Question: Why does the setting matter so much to you? Or how much should it matter generally to you? My experience has always been to make up shit, and work with my players to make up a world and setting. I've never had any interest in using a game's setting and have Never seen a use in doing so. I assumed when I started running games, that was the point; to make up my own shit and cherry-pick mechanics that achieves all the player's goals and play a fun game. You bring up the importance of settings a lot in your videos, but if it's a make-believe game where anything can be anything, why's it matter? Or how much should it matter? Enough to make me wanna play in a world, or enough to inspire to make my own shit like it? Unclear. Because honestly, from my perspective, when you bring those things up I think, "Well I could give a shit less about the setting, I'll just make up my own shit." or "Are the mechanics present in this game interesting enough to steal in order to help me realize something in my own game?" *Genuine question, not trying to be facetious, also I know this has little to do with the vid."
TL;DR - Setting informs systems, which informs mechanics, which can lead to interesting game design. A setting adds context to a LOT of mechanics and more detailed moment-to-moment situations that a game can offer. Harn for example has EXTENSIVE Psychic phenomenon and Magic is VERY particular to a VERY particular group of people. Games like Harn has the entire game built around its setting. While you can add it elsewhere, you'll need to either ignore the aspects of the setting (which begs the question of using it / the system in the first place) or you crowbar it in (which can lead to some more awkward moments of guesstimating). Then you get things like Wildsea, where the entire pitch is that "The setting is interesting enough for you to explore it" and that's a huge turn on for a lot of people than just a bundle of mechanics and some jazz hands. Wildsea delivers a FASCINATING setting that is . . . well ignored by a majority of the mechanics. Which if I bought something on the premise of its setting and the game doesn't interact with it at all, that's an issue. You can also end up with a D&D issue where you have your VERY UNIQUE FANTASY WORLD . . . which is just D&D at the end of the day. Magic is rare? Well, it must use Vancian because the mechanics dictate it, or you start using third party, and that's an entire mess. Unique Gods? They're going to be reskinned Pelor and Co. because that's what they assume you to be using and build the game around it. And so on, and so on. It just blends back into being D&D with a new coat of paint. Also not great for anything more detailed than that. Finally, you can go the Generic System route, which is just Mechanics with no setting. But they sometimes feel "Gurps Flavored" which is to say they'll all feel similar to one another unless you start tweaking things extensively. Then you tweak more, then more, and then you have a system that's 95% Homebrew and 5% the Toolbox you're using. . . And I guess that's just making your own game for your setting at that point, eh?
Well I mean, that's how I have been looking at these rule books anyway, read up on the mechanics and ignore most of the stuff on the setting. I typically skip those parts unless it explicitly informs the mechanics for an experience I want to replicate in my own games. Honestly, That's a great way of putting it. Yeah, I think that's the most interesting and important part of TTTRPGs for me when looking at these games: "How can I use this toolbox to make my own thing?" The less I'm able to homebrew or mess with stuff the less engaged I am with the system. I understand why you care about it, but if I wanna take Harn and make Fantasy WW2 with a west African inspired political setting and pixie cocaine, it's a totally doable thing.
while I do agree that Harnmaster is somewhat unwieldy in its... "attention to detail", *I'd freakin' watch out with calling WFRP a better game than this.* Check out Mythras for more needlessly lethal d100 action, yet much more playable, with actually more "interactive" combat. Or RuneQuest, if it isn't too mainstream.
@@NotepadAnon Ah, that's right... ....to be frank, Harnmaster still strikes me as more mechanically robust and less broken than WFRP. Even if it's harder to play right away.
@@adzi6164 Honestly a lot of d100 systems are mechanically more sound than WFRP, though wether or not a game develops a cult status has little to do with objectivity.
I think the main issue is that Harn itself is so important to the Harnworld experience that "purchase another book to actually enjoy it" is something to at least bring up. Or you go the more five-fingered method, but cest la vie.
Harnmaster is one of these games I've constantly heard about but never looked at, and ... well. It appears to be the overdesigned mess that most fantasy RPGs trying to be a "more mature" dragon game replacement from the era always end up being.
Imo it's the best fantasy setting ever devised
I played a campiagn where the whole party were mages because we thought it was cool writing your own spells is a core part of being a mage. Thankfully, I barely rolled a noble, but in spite of that fact I was doing the heavy lifting of the group (as a psychic branch mage btw) because out of the three of us, I was the most physically capabale. The water and darkness mage was missing an arm, the light and illusion mage was missing a leg, and I was compeltly colorbind with 4 mental illnesses (all due to table rolling ofc). We were the three stooges of magic, in a low fantasy, low magic world that feared and hated mages and it was glorious.
The Foundry VTT system module is really well done if looking to automate a lot of the mechanical busywork. It does feel like one of those systems that caters to a small, yet devoted player base.
Dwarves and Elfs being literal 1-2 percent chance makes me think its suppose to emulate mysterious "fare-folk" in medieval folklore but also its a filter to weed out people who want to be special
Yes! A feature ported to my home d&d game, along with frame/height/weight.
It has a very specific idea of how the setting ought to look, and I applaud it for sticking to its guns.
For some reason I decided to sign up for a session of this game at a tiny local gaming convention and I leaned 2 things. First, the individuals at the table had been playing this game at this con as a kind annual friend’s reunion for years. That’s fine, they were nice and inclusive, but I couldn’t shake the vague feeling that I’d walked into something like a geriatric nudist colony where everyone is proudly on display doing what they do, but I’m suddenly very conscious of where my eyes and hands are at all times. The second thing I learned is that, although I could never enjoy this level of granularity in a game I play regularly, it was somewhat of a beautiful anthropological exercise to observe this very special breed of nerd in their natural habitat. I left the experience feeling as if I’d watched an exquisitely intricate tea ceremony for math perverts. Perhaps it is more trouble than I’d be willing to go to for a cup of tea, but I can still respect the quiet dignity of their culture.
Games this complex make me wanna watch a session where the players know the rules like the backs of their hands, that could be amazing. I also wonder if such a group has ever existed for games this complex
Me Too! One Person who could do just that is Trevor Duvall from Me Myself and Die. He really adores this game, has played it for many years and runs a very good actual play channel in which he shows all the rolls and still edits the sessions down making them tightly paced yet entertaining. But in a recent stream he made it very clear that he would never use Harn as a system for his videos, because it is too crunchy XD
TBF the _setting_ books are pretty system agnostic, so one might use a different system.
Though in terms of groups using complex systems, I think the most batshit case I am aware of is Aaron Allston's famous long-running Champions campaign. At one point he somehow managed to oversee a massive brawl featuring around a _100_ characters - using Champions aka the Hero System.
@@ruolbu there are a couple of live plays here on YT
As someone has played and run it.. It's really not that complicated.
Way back in the early ninties, if not for a few months, Harn would have been my first ttrpg experience.
However i instead joined a 2e dnd that tragically ran on the same day as harn, and in time lost the other guys contact details.
I think this is what the uninitiated think of when you tell them you're running a D100 system
this is sad.
I dont like overly complicated systems, but i can respect the intent. On the other hand, i really dont like over simplyfied systems
I've actually played small campaign with it, wasn't that bad. However, we later changed to WFRP2 and just added some rules from Harn, and they fit pretty good
I would recommend The Fantasy Trip for a down-to-earth system that just plays faster.
I do recommend HarnManor if you are running a game set primarily in one village.
The character creation reminds me of _Pendragon_ , where you can - with enough supplements - effectively roll for the entire history of your family.
Speaking of Pendragon, I'd probably run this setting using some derivative of BRP (probably Mythras).
the Aiming zone mechanic seems neat
Alright, I recently found your channel and I've been going through a bunch of your videos. I genuinely appreciate your critical takes on the hobby and games I wouldn't have heard of otherwise.
Question: Why does the setting matter so much to you? Or how much should it matter generally to you?
My experience has always been to make up shit, and work with my players to make up a world and setting. I've never had any interest in using a game's setting and have Never seen a use in doing so. I assumed when I started running games, that was the point; to make up my own shit and cherry-pick mechanics that achieves all the player's goals and play a fun game.
You bring up the importance of settings a lot in your videos, but if it's a make-believe game where anything can be anything, why's it matter? Or how much should it matter? Enough to make me wanna play in a world, or enough to inspire to make my own shit like it? Unclear.
Because honestly, from my perspective, when you bring those things up I think, "Well I could give a shit less about the setting, I'll just make up my own shit." or "Are the mechanics present in this game interesting enough to steal in order to help me realize something in my own game?"
*Genuine question, not trying to be facetious, also I know this has little to do with the vid."
TL;DR - Setting informs systems, which informs mechanics, which can lead to interesting game design.
A setting adds context to a LOT of mechanics and more detailed moment-to-moment situations that a game can offer. Harn for example has EXTENSIVE Psychic phenomenon and Magic is VERY particular to a VERY particular group of people.
Games like Harn has the entire game built around its setting. While you can add it elsewhere, you'll need to either ignore the aspects of the setting (which begs the question of using it / the system in the first place) or you crowbar it in (which can lead to some more awkward moments of guesstimating).
Then you get things like Wildsea, where the entire pitch is that "The setting is interesting enough for you to explore it" and that's a huge turn on for a lot of people than just a bundle of mechanics and some jazz hands. Wildsea delivers a FASCINATING setting that is . . . well ignored by a majority of the mechanics. Which if I bought something on the premise of its setting and the game doesn't interact with it at all, that's an issue.
You can also end up with a D&D issue where you have your VERY UNIQUE FANTASY WORLD . . . which is just D&D at the end of the day. Magic is rare? Well, it must use Vancian because the mechanics dictate it, or you start using third party, and that's an entire mess. Unique Gods? They're going to be reskinned Pelor and Co. because that's what they assume you to be using and build the game around it. And so on, and so on. It just blends back into being D&D with a new coat of paint. Also not great for anything more detailed than that.
Finally, you can go the Generic System route, which is just Mechanics with no setting. But they sometimes feel "Gurps Flavored" which is to say they'll all feel similar to one another unless you start tweaking things extensively. Then you tweak more, then more, and then you have a system that's 95% Homebrew and 5% the Toolbox you're using. . .
And I guess that's just making your own game for your setting at that point, eh?
Well I mean, that's how I have been looking at these rule books anyway, read up on the mechanics and ignore most of the stuff on the setting. I typically skip those parts unless it explicitly informs the mechanics for an experience I want to replicate in my own games.
Honestly, That's a great way of putting it. Yeah, I think that's the most interesting and important part of TTTRPGs for me when looking at these games: "How can I use this toolbox to make my own thing?" The less I'm able to homebrew or mess with stuff the less engaged I am with the system.
I understand why you care about it, but if I wanna take Harn and make Fantasy WW2 with a west African inspired political setting and pixie cocaine, it's a totally doable thing.
Good vid.
Hildegard von Blingin' kicks ass.
while I do agree that Harnmaster is somewhat unwieldy in its... "attention to detail", *I'd freakin' watch out with calling WFRP a better game than this.*
Check out Mythras for more needlessly lethal d100 action, yet much more playable, with actually more "interactive" combat. Or RuneQuest, if it isn't too mainstream.
I should have mentioned Runquest and Mythras in general, but WFRP popped up for the raw "You are a dirt farmer going on a quest" concept.
@@NotepadAnon Ah, that's right...
....to be frank, Harnmaster still strikes me as more mechanically robust and less broken than WFRP. Even if it's harder to play right away.
@@adzi6164 Honestly a lot of d100 systems are mechanically more sound than WFRP, though wether or not a game develops a cult status has little to do with objectivity.
@@EvilDoresh add to that that most d100 systems are a mess mechanically and you start to get the picture, Harnmaster is really not that bad.
I chuckle when reviewers comment/complain about how expensive the expansions are, especially when compared to WOTC products.
I think the main issue is that Harn itself is so important to the Harnworld experience that "purchase another book to actually enjoy it" is something to at least bring up.
Or you go the more five-fingered method, but cest la vie.
subbed
Harnmaster is one of these games I've constantly heard about but never looked at, and ... well. It appears to be the overdesigned mess that most fantasy RPGs trying to be a "more mature" dragon game replacement from the era always end up being.