Hi and thanks for tuning in! Our RUclips channel was recently switched to a brand account from a personal one and some past comments were lost as a result. Please ask any questions you have and we’ll get to them as quickly as possible, thanks again for watching and please don’t forget to hit like, subscribe, and enjoy!
Tip for anyone going from stock drum brake to disc in the rear is to get the OEM proportioning valve for the disc set up as the brake torque is deferent between the too and your gona be disappointed after u covert and the brake force is just not there..
Very good introduction to the subject, however I would have liked to see even a very short bit about the importance of upgrading master cylinder when upgrading brake calipers - it is often the case that a master cylinder upgrade is not really optional when going from a smaller piston diameter caliper to a larger piston diameter caliper and it is something people should always research before they start swapping calipers over. Just because it bolts on it doesn't mean it will work.
This is a really good video. It explains basically ever type of braking application and if there were any other questions, anyone should have a great baseline to start looking. Great Jobs Guys. Thank you.
well humans will be humans, always want more and always complaining. Im just saying, they are sharing vital info thats what ure here for no? i mean if u want something high quality wait for redbull to make videos like this. I think they did a great job with sharing their knowledge
And that is why he said, "Great videos" at the start of the sentence. They did do a pretty good job of sharing knowledge. And they'd do an even better job of sharing knowledge if they have clearer audio and better camera gear.
I have a Nissan 370Z sport coupe with the upgraded Akebono(Brembo copy) brakes. It's a very good brake system but I'm having stainless steel braided brake lines installed for a more solid pedal feel. Since it was time to flush the brake fluid anyway, I decided to take advantage of the opportunity to get this done. I'm eventually planning to upgrade my rotors to floating two-piece units with aluminum hats to reduce unsprung weight.
I would have liked some mention of the importance of weather seals/wipers, especially for 'dirty' operating conditions - OEM calipers are relatively resistant to poor servicing but many/most 'race' calipers use neither and require frequent (every event?) servicing and checking - which many may fail to do and which invites seal leakage or failure.
mmm basic information, which is very informative for a novice, but i feel that you should maybe have gone into brake balance a bit, i guess it doesn't make that big a difference on fwd cars and even awd? but i for instance drive an mr car so for me brake balance is more important than brake size as i can't just go put bigger calipers/discs in the front as that would cause a complete upset in the cars balance?
yes i remember but I'm talking slightly more in depth... like when choosing calipers how the piston sizes, brake rotor size, SG and the car weight and all of that relate to brake bias as well as brake booster cylinder size and all of that. i guess i would just like another level of info as well.
The location of your engine and or drive wheels doesn't change the physics of mass in motion. Weight transfers to the front braking all the same. Do lamborghinis and paganis and ferraris have larger front than rear brakes still just like everything else? If anything, a front wheel drive car of all cars would need better rear brakes/bias to replace the engine braking it lacks vs awd or rwd platforms utilizing that rear traction during deceleration, wouldn't you think? Hmmm...
It's a very cool video, but changing just the fluid is not that simple because the system has to be strong enough for the other fluid that gets added into the system
If I have a base Fiesta with the smaller front calipers and drums in the back, can I bolt the larger front calipers and rear calipers from a Fiesta ST directly onto my car without using some kind of adapter plate? Thanks in advance!
Hi Team O'Neil, thanks for your very instructive videos. I'd like to know where to buy big brake kits. In any tuning shop ? I drive an SX4. Is it easy tio find ? Could be a general interest topic. Thanks
If you google AP racing distributors you will find that most offer brake kits. Not just callipers and discs, but also bells, brackets, bolts and hoses.
I'm planning to go with the fewest upgrades possible with a noticeable change. Is it worth it to only upgrade pads, brake lines, and brake fluid? *8 track days/year plus DD
Yes absolutely worth it! Just be careful to select the right pads to work in the temperature ranges you'll be working with... if you street drive with race pads you will get a lot of squeal, premature rotor wear, and they don't even really stop that well until you get some heat in them... But if you take street pads on the track you'll go through them fast, brake fade, etc... Finding the happy medium that works for you is the trick. We run the Hawk ceramic pads and love them on almost everything here after trying all of them, but your needs will be different, check out www.hawkperformance.com/street-performance-compound-application
@@Teamoneilrally So it's all about the pads? The disc can get red hot and still work fine? All of my discs use to end up breaking irregularly, possibly twisting and vibrating. Maybe you could make a vid about bedding in new breaks and/or pads and how to fix them?
Is it okay to have the same size caliper, rotors and pads in both front and back but then use a brake bias adjustment to conduct brake balancing? Or is it overkill (wasteful in terms of upsprung mass)? IMO, I think larger rears (equal size with fronts) are good for an application that requires usage of a hydro e-brake. Not sure how valid is that opinion though.
Going to come down to disc temperature, especially for pad material - my personal view is one should try and match the sizes so they have the same temperature gain which will allow the same pad materials to be used for more consistent balance throughout. That is not always possible, though. You could just use a biasing valve and/or dual master cylinder with balance adjuster, but if it isn't needed it is just additional cost and weight for the car to overcome.
@@gordowg1wg145 if you have the same size rotors and same pads front and rear the rears will absolutely never be the same hwat as the front. The front will always do more braking because of weight transfer. Thats why cars have more capable vrakes in the front than the rear in general, and why front disc rear drum stayed so relevant for so long on so many platforms. You need enough brakikg force to max out the limit of your tires traction, and enough brake material to absord the heat generated in doing sonfor a given application. Any extra mass beyond that is just wasted energy the other 90% of the time you are driving, and actually just extra mass for the brakes friction material to then shed as heat transfer when you need to slow it back down too. Long story short, run the brakes you need and can get by with for a given application, running larger than you can use is going to be counterproductive for the very reasons you guessed in your initial quandry.
Clearly you did mis-understand what I wrote - "*match the sizes so they have the same temperature gain* which will allow the same pad materials to be used for more consistent balance throughout". I put it like that because of the very issue you mention - differing thermal loading of the front and rear brakes, with the front brakes normally running significantly hotter then the rear, it is common for different brake pad materials to be used at each end and/or use the same material which will not be working in it's optimum range on at least one end - certainly as the brake disc temperatures cycle through their operating ranges. By sizing the disc size (and design - solid, vented, internal fin design, air ducting, etc) so they gain and lose temperature at approximately the same rate, the pads are more likely to be at approximately the same temperatures and so maintain more balanced braking. Of course, when you then factor in engine and regenerative braking, if used, it starts to get really complicated in a hurry. It has been a while, but I am quite conversant with the issues of thermal mass, heat rejection (thermal radiation and conduction to the suppounding air mass), the effect of excessive disc and caliper mass as both unsprung and inertial loads and the differences in friction gradients Vs temperature of different brake pad materials. Not to mention disc materials, effective caliper bore CSA, mean effective radii, mean brake torque, etc. I kept it simple as the initial poster seemed to have a basic, at best, understanding of brake thermo-dynamics. As an aside, some of the concerns you have about brake mass also apply to the current fad for larger than optimum wheel/tyre packages - there are some interesting tests around where a vehicle has had as close to identical wheel/tyre packages (same brand, models, widths, etc) tried with the only difference being wheel diameter - in every instance I have seen, the best results were the one a couple of sizes down from the biggest. Anyway, back to the initial poster's query - to clarify, it is possible but not generally a good idea as there are many factors involved. However, I assume this is in reference to drifting and provoking a loss of rear tyre traction so heat build up 'shouldn't' be too much of a concern as the tyres would be locked up; there would be more emphasis on the effort required for the brake torque required to lock the tyres. in this case, using a plumb-through hydraulically operated brake, sustained brake performance will be of a lesser concern and a larger disc and/or caliper bore may be acceptable - although mu suggestion would be to use the OEM setup, if practical, and use a smaller bore and/or lever with greater mechanical advantage (leverage) to get the force required. I say 'if practical' as some OEM stuff is too undersized for this application. Oh, and there are vehicles which have overall thermal loads in the rear that are close to, or exceed the front for various reasons, such as mass distribution, low CoG-to-wheelbase and hence load/weight transfer or compromised cooling - for example, the Porsche has aspects of all three, as do heavy vehicles and way back in the mid seventies (yes, I'm an old fart :-D ) Jaguar had chronic problems with their XJ12C rear brakes overheating as they used the OEM inboard rear brake position and they couldn't get enough cooling to them.
@@gordowg1wg145 I responded directly to the comment. He asked about "using the same size rotors, calipers, and pads, front and rear" your answer then was ambiguous at best, regardless. Thanks for clarifying what you meant though.
Focus RS caliper is axial mounted? That’s kinda lame. I’ve seen some claims that the steel bolts connecting the two halves of a two piece caliper together are stiffer than the aluminum around them, making them actually stiffer than one piece calipers, but I’m not 100% sure I believe them.
litteraly didnt make it half way threw the video because of the amount of "uhhhhh" this and "uhhhhhhhhh" that, yall make very informative videos that i enjoy, but this was just too much
Hi and thanks for tuning in! Our RUclips channel was recently switched to a brand account from a personal one and some past comments were lost as a result. Please ask any questions you have and we’ll get to them as quickly as possible, thanks again for watching and please don’t forget to hit like, subscribe, and enjoy!
What is pascals role/title? I am intrigued by his expertise and would like to understand how to get such experience and knowledge.
Could you rally or race in general with rear drum brakes if you have disc up front ?
Excellent presentation by someone who is very knowledgable about the choices available.
Tip for anyone going from stock drum brake to disc in the rear is to get the OEM proportioning valve for the disc set up as the brake torque is deferent between the too and your gona be disappointed after u covert and the brake force is just not there..
Regarding brake pads, there are three characteristics: race-capable, street friendly, and cheap. Pick two.
Very good introduction to the subject, however I would have liked to see even a very short bit about the importance of upgrading master cylinder when upgrading brake calipers - it is often the case that a master cylinder upgrade is not really optional when going from a smaller piston diameter caliper to a larger piston diameter caliper and it is something people should always research before they start swapping calipers over. Just because it bolts on it doesn't mean it will work.
This is a really good video. It explains basically ever type of braking application and if there were any other questions, anyone should have a great baseline to start looking. Great Jobs Guys. Thank you.
I love this channel man.
Great video! Would love to see another video about the rest of the braking system.
Great videos. But you guys really need to get a lap microphone
Leonardo Ojeda That and a steadier camera man, 😂. I'm getting motion sickness watching the video.
well humans will be humans, always want more and always complaining. Im just saying, they are sharing vital info thats what ure here for no? i mean if u want something high quality wait for redbull to make videos like this. I think they did a great job with sharing their knowledge
And that is why he said, "Great videos" at the start of the sentence. They did do a pretty good job of sharing knowledge. And they'd do an even better job of sharing knowledge if they have clearer audio and better camera gear.
Great, informative videos! Would love to see you guys do one about roof scoops/vents
A video on Piston metals would be great and shims!
I have a Nissan 370Z sport coupe with the upgraded Akebono(Brembo copy) brakes. It's a very good brake system but I'm having stainless steel braided brake lines installed for a more solid pedal feel. Since it was time to flush the brake fluid anyway, I decided to take advantage of the opportunity to get this done. I'm eventually planning to upgrade my rotors to floating two-piece units with aluminum hats to reduce unsprung weight.
Very nice!
What a great video!! Thanks for explaining!
I would have liked some mention of the importance of weather seals/wipers, especially for 'dirty' operating conditions - OEM calipers are relatively resistant to poor servicing but many/most 'race' calipers use neither and require frequent (every event?) servicing and checking - which many may fail to do and which invites seal leakage or failure.
Definitely, same with rally suspension... Everything should be pulled apart and at least checked and re-greased every event.
the guy is a "scientist" on the field of braking !!!!
I need help finding what will work for my vehicle. I'm looking to shed weigh from break rotors and calipers.
mmm basic information, which is very informative for a novice, but i feel that you should maybe have gone into brake balance a bit, i guess it doesn't make that big a difference on fwd cars and even awd? but i for instance drive an mr car so for me brake balance is more important than brake size as i can't just go put bigger calipers/discs in the front as that would cause a complete upset in the cars balance?
Wyatt has gone into brake bias in the suspension setup video. I know it's a bit counterintuitive, but I just remembered that tidbit.
yes i remember but I'm talking slightly more in depth... like when choosing calipers how the piston sizes, brake rotor size, SG and the car weight and all of that relate to brake bias as well as brake booster cylinder size and all of that. i guess i would just like another level of info as well.
awesome i can't wait :) tyvm, love your channel
The location of your engine and or drive wheels doesn't change the physics of mass in motion. Weight transfers to the front braking all the same. Do lamborghinis and paganis and ferraris have larger front than rear brakes still just like everything else? If anything, a front wheel drive car of all cars would need better rear brakes/bias to replace the engine braking it lacks vs awd or rwd platforms utilizing that rear traction during deceleration, wouldn't you think? Hmmm...
It's a very cool video, but changing just the fluid is not that simple because the system has to be strong enough for the other fluid that gets added into the system
Great information, but you guy need to use the gimble for video stable, really dizzy in sometimes :)
Very informative for me.
If I have a base Fiesta with the smaller front calipers and drums in the back, can I bolt the larger front calipers and rear calipers from a Fiesta ST directly onto my car without using some kind of adapter plate? Thanks in advance!
For a gravel/offroad setup would you use 4/4 pot brakes and same size rotors?
i really fucking love these videos ! The more you explain the better :D
Go, Pascal!
How do you upgrade a solid axle with discs?
Hi Team O'Neil, thanks for your very instructive videos. I'd like to know where to buy big brake kits. In any tuning shop ? I drive an SX4. Is it easy tio find ? Could be a general interest topic. Thanks
If you google AP racing distributors you will find that most offer brake kits. Not just callipers and discs, but also bells, brackets, bolts and hoses.
can you please next time explane dif. and how to setup it?
I'm planning to go with the fewest upgrades possible with a noticeable change. Is it worth it to only upgrade pads, brake lines, and brake fluid?
*8 track days/year plus DD
Yes absolutely worth it! Just be careful to select the right pads to work in the temperature ranges you'll be working with... if you street drive with race pads you will get a lot of squeal, premature rotor wear, and they don't even really stop that well until you get some heat in them... But if you take street pads on the track you'll go through them fast, brake fade, etc... Finding the happy medium that works for you is the trick. We run the Hawk ceramic pads and love them on almost everything here after trying all of them, but your needs will be different, check out www.hawkperformance.com/street-performance-compound-application
Team O'Neil Rally School Thanks for the quick response! I need to do my research to find out my option.
@@Teamoneilrally So it's all about the pads? The disc can get red hot and still work fine? All of my discs use to end up breaking irregularly, possibly twisting and vibrating. Maybe you could make a vid about bedding in new breaks and/or pads and how to fix them?
Is it okay to have the same size caliper, rotors and pads in both front and back but then use a brake bias adjustment to conduct brake balancing? Or is it overkill (wasteful in terms of upsprung mass)?
IMO, I think larger rears (equal size with fronts) are good for an application that requires usage of a hydro e-brake. Not sure how valid is that opinion though.
Going to come down to disc temperature, especially for pad material - my personal view is one should try and match the sizes so they have the same temperature gain which will allow the same pad materials to be used for more consistent balance throughout. That is not always possible, though.
You could just use a biasing valve and/or dual master cylinder with balance adjuster, but if it isn't needed it is just additional cost and weight for the car to overcome.
@@gordowg1wg145 if you have the same size rotors and same pads front and rear the rears will absolutely never be the same hwat as the front. The front will always do more braking because of weight transfer. Thats why cars have more capable vrakes in the front than the rear in general, and why front disc rear drum stayed so relevant for so long on so many platforms. You need enough brakikg force to max out the limit of your tires traction, and enough brake material to absord the heat generated in doing sonfor a given application. Any extra mass beyond that is just wasted energy the other 90% of the time you are driving, and actually just extra mass for the brakes friction material to then shed as heat transfer when you need to slow it back down too. Long story short, run the brakes you need and can get by with for a given application, running larger than you can use is going to be counterproductive for the very reasons you guessed in your initial quandry.
Clearly you did mis-understand what I wrote - "*match the sizes so they have the same temperature gain* which will allow the same pad materials to be used for more consistent balance throughout". I put it like that because of the very issue you mention - differing thermal loading of the front and rear brakes, with the front brakes normally running significantly hotter then the rear, it is common for different brake pad materials to be used at each end and/or use the same material which will not be working in it's optimum range on at least one end - certainly as the brake disc temperatures cycle through their operating ranges. By sizing the disc size (and design - solid, vented, internal fin design, air ducting, etc) so they gain and lose temperature at approximately the same rate, the pads are more likely to be at approximately the same temperatures and so maintain more balanced braking.
Of course, when you then factor in engine and regenerative braking, if used, it starts to get really complicated in a hurry.
It has been a while, but I am quite conversant with the issues of thermal mass, heat rejection (thermal radiation and conduction to the suppounding air mass), the effect of excessive disc and caliper mass as both unsprung and inertial loads and the differences in friction gradients Vs temperature of different brake pad materials. Not to mention disc materials, effective caliper bore CSA, mean effective radii, mean brake torque, etc.
I kept it simple as the initial poster seemed to have a basic, at best, understanding of brake thermo-dynamics.
As an aside, some of the concerns you have about brake mass also apply to the current fad for larger than optimum wheel/tyre packages - there are some interesting tests around where a vehicle has had as close to identical wheel/tyre packages (same brand, models, widths, etc) tried with the only difference being wheel diameter - in every instance I have seen, the best results were the one a couple of sizes down from the biggest.
Anyway, back to the initial poster's query - to clarify, it is possible but not generally a good idea as there are many factors involved. However, I assume this is in reference to drifting and provoking a loss of rear tyre traction so heat build up 'shouldn't' be too much of a concern as the tyres would be locked up; there would be more emphasis on the effort required for the brake torque required to lock the tyres. in this case, using a plumb-through hydraulically operated brake, sustained brake performance will be of a lesser concern and a larger disc and/or caliper bore may be acceptable - although mu suggestion would be to use the OEM setup, if practical, and use a smaller bore and/or lever with greater mechanical advantage (leverage) to get the force required. I say 'if practical' as some OEM stuff is too undersized for this application.
Oh, and there are vehicles which have overall thermal loads in the rear that are close to, or exceed the front for various reasons, such as mass distribution, low CoG-to-wheelbase and hence load/weight transfer or compromised cooling - for example, the Porsche has aspects of all three, as do heavy vehicles and way back in the mid seventies (yes, I'm an old fart :-D ) Jaguar had chronic problems with their XJ12C rear brakes overheating as they used the OEM inboard rear brake position and they couldn't get enough cooling to them.
@@gordowg1wg145 I responded directly to the comment. He asked about "using the same size rotors, calipers, and pads, front and rear" your answer then was ambiguous at best, regardless. Thanks for clarifying what you meant though.
Focus RS caliper is axial mounted? That’s kinda lame.
I’ve seen some claims that the steel bolts connecting the two halves of a two piece caliper together are stiffer than the aluminum around them, making them actually stiffer than one piece calipers, but I’m not 100% sure I believe them.
Carbon ceramic brakeessss
Alvin Chan not a great idea on a rally car, high risk of contaminates destroying the expensive disk.
litteraly didnt make it half way threw the video because of the amount of "uhhhhh" this and "uhhhhhhhhh" that, yall make very informative videos that i enjoy, but this was just too much
Second
Great video for my wife to watch... Not any real information for car guys.
I learned how drum brakes work never owned a car with them so it was informative.