Hi and thanks for tuning in! Our RUclips channel was recently switched to a brand account from a personal one and some past comments were lost as a result. Please ask any questions you have and we’ll get to them as quickly as possible, thanks again for watching and please don’t forget to hit like, subscribe, and enjoy!
Msport parts, wow you guys are killing it. I learn so much that I wish I would've known when I was trying to run in Japan. I really need to get to this school
totally cool presentation in depth !!!! well done , that was amazing , i always wanted to know more about the differences between stock cars VS Rally cars !!!!
very good video. one thing you might mention is that in the U.S. cars had one master cyl for 4 wheels untill 1967 when the government mandate duel master cyl. also in 1967 was the first year for a collapsible steering column.
One other difference between racing and road car brake systems is that while there are two master cylinders on both systems, usually one master cylinder will do one front wheel and the diagonally opposite rear wheel rather than both front wheels or both rear wheels. If one cylinder fails, having diagonally opposite wheels braked on the surviving piston leads to more stable braking behaviour in a road car. With modern ABS and stability control systems this probably matters a lot less as the ABS pump can brake any wheel it likes, even without the driver touching the pedal.
9:25 So you're telling me that in a production STI, when the hand brake is pulled, the center diff disengages? EDIT: After some further research, Yes this is true. I have learned something new today.
center diff =/= engine. But shouldn't it be obvious? I mean you're locking up your rear wheels while the front wheels (it's AWD) are still going damn quick. Of course that would break a center diff
If you're lucky and your diff is in a good condition, it will stop the engine. If you're less lucky, your diff won't be in a good condition after that.
That Msport handbrake is pretty trick @ 10:08. Is there a performance advantage of pressurizing the ebrake handle and using as reservoir? Very cool, but almost seems unnecessarily complicated.
I like the hand brake reservoir. Is he certain it is pressurised, you wouldn't want any reservoir pressure to translate to brake fluid pressure when hot and end up riding the pads. It might be low when cold but as fluid warms up and expands and has to be able to back flow into the reservoir or the pressure behind it will increase to the point pads cant fully release.. It might have a light spring in the top and free plunger that allows fluid to back flow without building up too much back pressure in the reservoir Instead of fluid displacement building up back pressure it may instead rely in the light spring pressure that inst enough to ride the pads as it compresses to make room for fluid as brakes heat up. That tube type reservoir used to be a common superbike mod when we fitted high rear set pegs and move the rear brake master, just use a length of rigid plastic hose with a stopper in the top and small hole vented to air to hold enough fluid for hot to cold use, takes a bit of weight off and no need to locate the reservoir.
The reservoir is hooked up to the c-diff, not the brakes. From what I can tell it's just there because there's no other reservoir in the c-diff system and you need a reservoir somewhere to adjust for temps. I see no way it could be pressurized, there's nothing mechanical on that side of the master cyl to pressurize it (unless the driver "pressurizes" it by blowing into a check valve at the top, lol).
Wait what happens when you remove the booster? Wouldn't the brakes be super hard to press? Interesting in doing this for a drift car if there is no ill effect
Also you will make the car lighter and more powerful, but only very tiny bit lol. But that's the race car way, even F1 drivers have to hold like 400 lbs with their left foot every time they brake. (Well actually you can play around with cylinder sizes and leverages a bit but it's still going to be tough as hell in the beginning lol)
Mandela Effect hydro boost. If you have electric steering you won't have that option. Weight and complication of the system is a downside. Using mechanical advantage is simpler and effective.
Francis Grabetz ever heard of electric pump ? That's how mine works and yes I don't have a working engine power steering pump ps. Mine works perfectly even to the point of being my new favourite Master cylinder instead of vacuum powered or manual which was my old favourite type
Mandela Effect the power steering ones works to but in my case it was just easier to use the Electric one plus it's very quiet and works if the engine stalls
B.D.B. 😏 done aka I have hydro assist powered brakes. bonus Im get is a cleaner signal to the engine ecu so it doesn't think there a gigantic vacuum leak
In the end every system would just add complexity, weight and parasitic loss without even bringing any real benefit. Racing drivers have legs of steel and their whole braking skill has been built on that stiff and consistent feel of unassisted brakes. Power steering is a bit different, the extra feedback you'd get from unassisted steering would be nice but not nearly enough to justify the fact that you'd have to use slower ratio rack (bad) and it would still be heavy as hell with the sticky tyres, awd/locks and possibly downforce too. (Not to mention on rough terrain the steering wheel can hit back at your hands and fingers enough to break them)
I'm not entirely sure how it works, but most Audi's have Torsen center diffs, which is a limited slip diff. That means, if you pull the handbrake and engage the brakes on the rear wheels, the diff will try sending all the torque it can to the rear axle, so you basically brake all four wheels and stall the engine. That's how I've understood it at least
@@G-force_Motorsport Can you feel the hitting of 100% pedal travel or does it feel like you need exponentially more power , than you can do with your feet?
@@SilentHillFetishist Never reaches full travel, and feels far from ideal when cold, we always try to get some heat into them prior to the first stage. Also depends on the pad compound, I'm running DS2500 at the moment, a fairly conservative one, I've got a low pressure booster mounted in the back of the car to compensate. Will be going to a top spec pad later this year, can hopefully take out the booster.
Depends on the brakes, cylinders, leverages, pedal travel etc but generally I'd say if complete first timer were to drive a short test run, it would result in muscle soreness that would last for few days lol. (Oh BTW racing clutch pedal is hell too)
2:40 Surely this only applies for forced induction engines where the inlet manifold is above atmospheric pressure? A naturally aspirated engine would have a higher vacuum under acceleration.
All gas engines have higher vacuum when at idle, because the throttle body is closed with the engine running. The intake manifold basically becomes a vacuum chamber. When you accelerate, the throttle plate opens, and air rushes back into the intake (or pressurized air if forced induction). Your brake booster runs off vacuum, that's why your brakes are nice and soft when you are off the gas, but get very hard if you brake a few times when you're on the gas.
If the mid diff wasn't locked, locking the rear wheels on a normal mid differential would make the front wheels turn twice as fast, which would make for very frightening behaviour mid corner if you use the handbrake. Disconnecting the drive to the rear wheels on an open diff would mean all the power spins away to the rear wheel side of the diff and nothing goes to the front though, so the mid diff has to be able to lock to allow the front to be powered while the rear is disconnected.
Hello saw the pressurized msport hand brake in the video. I run 3 Audis and would like to get 3 of them but can not find it anywhere. Can you by chance point me in the right direction. Thanks and love the videos!!
This is brilliant I wish there was a rally school were I live. Perhaps in the future we can partner up and do something cool. We host the ERC here plus the local national rally
Maybe I'm missing something but... Why would you want to disable the ABS system in a Subaru? Doesn't the VDC system use it to control individual wheelspin to aid in traction control?
@@immikeurnot yup wheel lock brakes quicker becaus it diggs the wheels in to the ground so the wheels will push gravel infront of it and brake quicker. And becaus you can easaly transfear movement from side to side by locking your wheels
Lol no. ABS is possibly the single worst thing on modern cars. It is like training wheels for brakes. Helpful for total beginners but if you are halfway competant it is way worse. Anything that litteraly takes the control of your car out of your hands is no bueno.
Surprised to see "basically everyone" kills the brake booster..maybe better with race brakes or something with a better master.. but damn I don't think I could actually seriously drive my car in any situation, rally or street, without the booster..it takes all of my strength..why not run a vacuum pump and reservoir? Always have vacuum, on/off throttle, in/out of boost..also a lot easier to modulate IMHO when two footing..no stiff brakes vs not stiff throttle.
TeamONeilRally - Thanks for replying. Glad to see someone in rally doesn't think my idea is silly! The hard part with the vacuum pump is either A. Finding an electrical one that can handle it (I've only found very few and they are $$$) or B. Fabbing a mount and belt for a mechanical one, which are still $$ for a decent one. I had planned on going electrical but may just fab a mech mount especially since i have no a/c or p/s and two extra/free pullys. As for MC there's only I think a 1" max for OEM replacement for my car (eg hatch) with either 13/16 or 15/16 stock, which I plan on installing anyway, will see how the brakes feel after that but judging by how hard it is without vacuum with the stock MC, I'd definitely need an aftermarket and/change pivot as you suggested. Just went to the biggest OEM brakes I can fit under 15"s and haven't even broken them in yet, so that will be interesting too.
IdealSound & Performance : Mobile i I'm using hydraulically boost breaks ( bendix 9 aka 1991 jeep ) not vacuum powered:) because of boost and because it has very similar feedback as a manual master cylinder which you can feel tapping on the lines aka very sensitive good feedback from the pads / tires plus a very linear feeling just like manual master cylinders and in my case the miss can't complain about having little to no power brakes so I can turn up the power or down and it's very quiet . Gm used more than one system one is made by Bosch and the other one is on 87 Buick Regal Grand Nationals. I also have extra lines running from the master cylinder and back to automatically bleed and cool my brake fluid just like some race cars but no computerised hydraulics for now aka abs to $$ for me but I'd like to
Because after very little practice and strengthening you can do it. It's not like it's some "rally only" thing, or low budget. Literally F1, Nascar, Indycar and very big majority of all the race cars in the world run without brake boosters with only very few exceptions.
Bram Biesiekierski he's off on the abs / traction control there is a significant grip advantage of having it why do you think it's baned in some motorsports heck even Williams international got kicked off the track because it was working so well vs similar cars the biggest problem with factory computers it not being able to tune it for performance / race driving and I started out liking pre Nissan GT-R R 35 computer filled cars aka all mechanical with points and carbonators but as time and progress has march on the computer are better now
So with a newer sti (08-17) do I have to tap into the ebrake system at all to fully unlock the center diff when engaging the hydraulic handbrake. I know it's designed to unlock when you pull the ebrake, but should that be triggered with the hydro as well to not damage anything (as much)? Is it as simple as swapping the little button over that gets depressed when pulling the handbrake that triggers the "ebrake" light on the dash or is it more complicated than that?
You're right on target, just make a bracket and swap the little switch over so it still knows you are pulling the handbrake and it still opens the center diff.
Team O'Neil Rally School awesome thank you! One more question, if I was trying to keep my abs, would it be safe to have both rear lines combine into one when it goes into the hydraulic brakes' cylinder, and then have it come out and eventually split into 2 lines on it's way out to the two rear calipers? My hydraulic brakes' only has one cylinder and I really hope I don't have to go out and get a dual cylinder hydro
I want to do these mods to my Toyota 86, I hate the ABS/stability control it malfunctions and is dangerous, would these mod increase braking distance since the electronic braking distribution system will be removed? Thanks
You would certainly get a longer braking distance if you where to lock the wheels --very easy in an emergency, if you're not familiar with non-abs brakes. I do know some cars have huge rear brake bias once the ABS fuse is pulled, though just disconnecting an abs sensor seems to avoid the issue on at least one car. I'd really try to find someone in your area familiar with modding the 86, ask around. Here in Australia there's an 86 race series, so some good workshops :)
A more detailed explanation: The ABS prevents the tires from digging into the gravel by releasing the brakes permanently during operation -> longer braking distance then with locked wheels (on gravel, mud, ice, snow).
For me the reason was that getting rid of it made the life and brake bias adjuster install on dashboard so damn simple. And brake balance knob is one of the most important things in race car for me, it's magical how well you can tune the car to brake for each surface and situation, and even help with initial turn in by adding rear-bias. But no, I haven't done any of this to my street legal road car because it needs to pass inspection every year and I can daily drive with ABS just fine, even with the nordic winter weather and my 30 year old car's ABS ECU that has like one channel for the sensors and has update frequency Hz of a drunken gorilla
@procerator Videos and comments are forever unless stated otherwise. 6 years is nothing anyway, for it is a quality video that cannot grow old. Truth is, I've been blessed by the holy algorithm and I'm going to damn well make the best use out of it !
So would an 02 sti be able to have a hydrolic e brake? Or would you have to modify the center diff, and if so how would you do that? I've been looking online and I've come up with nothing yet.
We didn't get the STI here in the US until '04 so I'm not exactly sure... You can do it on the mid-2000s STIs, you just need to keep the little electric switch from the stock handbrake handle and mount it somewhere on the lever so it knows to open the center diff.
I don't understand, why do I have "less" vacuum when I'm on full throttle? I'm pretty sure I have "more" vacuum, because the engine sucks more air in and it's the difference in air pressure from the intake manifold to atmosphere. Obviously I'm not speaking about turbo charged engines.
It's a weird one, but basically: When you're zero throttle, the throttle plate is closed and the intake manifold becomes (mostly) sealed to the atmosphere. The pistons are still trying to pull air into the cylinders, so the intake basically becomes a vacuum chamber. When you get back on the gas and the throttle plate opens, atmospheric pressure fills the intake again (or pressurized air if you have forced induction). Most cars have a brake booster that runs off vacuum, so the pedal is very soft and easy to operate at zero throttle (as it was engineered to) but can become very hard to push when you are on the throttle simultaneously.
What's the big issue with ABS? I thought a decent, new system would detect the surface it's on, and respond much more quickly to traction changes than an average human. Am I wrong? (And yes, I know that good Rally drivers are better than an ABS module, but most people aren't)
ABS is great on pavement, whether you're just driving around or racing, it's a wonderful system that had definitely saved lives and won races... On gravel or snow or anything slippery though, not so much... The car just doesn't slow down that well, on snow it's about double the stopping distance with ABS vs without it. Check out ruclips.net/video/fge_m9u864k/видео.html
I've stared at the abs control box thing several times in my engine bay wondering what the hell it was. I thought it was an siren for the alarm for the longest time lol
My car allows me to heal and toe But if you press the brake and accelerater at the same time the ecu cuts the power which feels sooo dangrouse when it happens so no left foot braking for me 😢. My old nissan let me left foot brake it didn't have esp or abs so was awsome on tarmac and off road. It was awsom
I guess I'm lucky to have never driven a car with a cutoff. I have noticed that if I'm doing sudden and sustained left foot braking in my Fiat, the "service traction" light comes on. Has happened a few times and made my grin at the sillyness of how it is all tied together
Instead of bypassing/removing the brake booster why not just put a vacuum pump in like it's a diesel? That way you have vacuum assisted braking all the time
Basically just for simplicity, less is more. You're 100% correct that a vacuum pump would work, but if you get the right master cylinder and maybe change the pivot point of the pedal, it's pretty easy to push and it works fine.
@@Teamoneilrally More reliability is certainly beneficial in a rally. Curious about what elements in the master cylinder determine the pressure you need to put down when using it without a vacuum booster? I'm a bit reserved about non-boosted brakes because I forgot to put in the one way valve when rerouting the brake vacuum line on my second ever trackday. Not realising that the pedal will be super hard under turbo boost I went into a right angle corner at 160+kph, couldn't brake hard enough and landed in the sand trap 🤦 but I guess it won't be so bad if it wasn't for the turbo pushing against the brake booster
Don't worry, racing drivers and engineers do see them. Literally all of F1, Indycar, Nascar, WRC etc is running unassisted brakes and it might not be by accident.
Please dont throw break boosters in the woods, unless you are throwing your whole car out into the woods rallying! But please dont do that either.. 😅 stay on the road! 🚘🚫🌲
Hi and thanks for tuning in! Our RUclips channel was recently switched to a brand account from a personal one and some past comments were lost as a result. Please ask any questions you have and we’ll get to them as quickly as possible, thanks again for watching and please don’t forget to hit like, subscribe, and enjoy!
what master cylinder size you're using in your ap pedal box for clutch & brakes?
What tmic is on that Sti? Doesnt look stock
thank you for this I really understand
I looked you up, noticed youre in New Hampshire, any good rallye schools on the west coast, pacific northwest preferably. I live in portland oregon
Christ. I can't watch videos like this. I see stuff I could do to my car at home and I can hear my wife in my head, "wtf are you doing!?"
lmfao
That hydro brake and diff is the most beautiful piece of engineering I have never before seen.
Msport parts, wow you guys are killing it.
I learn so much that I wish I would've known when I was trying to run in Japan. I really need to get to this school
“Take this thing out, throw it into the woods, put it back together without it”
What a awesome information!
Keep the amazing job guys, not very people would share their knowlegde like that.
Regards from Portugal!
That adjustable brake pedal is really interesting. Great stuff as always 🔥👏🏽
Very good video. Love your series.
totally cool presentation in depth !!!! well done , that was amazing , i always wanted to know more about the differences between stock cars VS Rally cars !!!!
very good video. one thing you might mention is that in the U.S. cars had one master cyl for 4 wheels untill 1967 when the government mandate duel master cyl. also in 1967 was the first year for a collapsible steering column.
One other difference between racing and road car brake systems is that while there are two master cylinders on both systems, usually one master cylinder will do one front wheel and the diagonally opposite rear wheel rather than both front wheels or both rear wheels. If one cylinder fails, having diagonally opposite wheels braked on the surviving piston leads to more stable braking behaviour in a road car. With modern ABS and stability control systems this probably matters a lot less as the ABS pump can brake any wheel it likes, even without the driver touching the pedal.
Cool story bro.
Achtually the diagonal system is very much used in road cars too. (though there are some exceptions, like many RWD cars)
Smarter every day. Thanks man.
9:25 So you're telling me that in a production STI, when the hand brake is pulled, the center diff disengages?
EDIT: After some further research, Yes this is true. I have learned something new today.
How about just the wrx?
If your handbrake can break your engine, either you have a sad wrx or a gnarly handbrake 😂
center diff =/= engine. But shouldn't it be obvious? I mean you're locking up your rear wheels while the front wheels (it's AWD) are still going damn quick. Of course that would break a center diff
If you're lucky and your diff is in a good condition, it will stop the engine. If you're less lucky, your diff won't be in a good condition after that.
Diego Tobar just connect a fuse to the handbrake light!
Incredible. Thank you sir.
I'm interested in clutches as well, more specifically how certain rally/race cars can have extremely short throws compared to road vehicles.
You just earned yourself a subscriber
Very very good explanation!
Thank you! This even was entertaining as well!
Thanks, 2:30 now i know why my brake pedal stuck for a while when i abuse sometimes.
very good info.I love this channel
Dude, thanks for the upload!!!
Wyat " I found one "
Well I did not expect it xD
WOW, DUDE!!!!!! Wow!!
I would LOVE to hop in and try something at this great team Rally School! Pitty I am not from there
Wonderful explanations
good videos,good channel,subscribed!😄
Thanks!
Is it possible to setup brake balance adjuster without turning off ABS?
You guys are amazing...
Thanks a lot for this...😁
i would love to learn how to rally drive
loved the video. Thank you.
Pretty informative, sent to friends
I didn't know that an STI does the same thing electronically. so, an STI opens the diff when the hand brake is pulled?
That Msport handbrake is pretty trick @ 10:08. Is there a performance advantage of pressurizing the ebrake handle and using as reservoir? Very cool, but almost seems unnecessarily complicated.
I'm curious too... maybe it gives some feedback
I guess without it you'd need an additional reservoir. Hence weight savings with this system.
I like the hand brake reservoir.
Is he certain it is pressurised, you wouldn't want any reservoir pressure to translate to brake fluid pressure when hot and end up riding the pads.
It might be low when cold but as fluid warms up and expands and has to be able to back flow into the reservoir or the pressure behind it will increase to the point pads cant fully release..
It might have a light spring in the top and free plunger that allows fluid to back flow without building up too much back pressure in the reservoir
Instead of fluid displacement building up back pressure it may instead rely in the light spring pressure that inst enough to ride the pads as it compresses to make room for fluid as brakes heat up.
That tube type reservoir used to be a common superbike mod when we fitted high rear set pegs and move the rear brake master, just use a length of rigid plastic hose with a stopper in the top and small hole vented to air to hold enough fluid for hot to cold use, takes a bit of weight off and no need to locate the reservoir.
The reservoir is hooked up to the c-diff, not the brakes. From what I can tell it's just there because there's no other reservoir in the c-diff system and you need a reservoir somewhere to adjust for temps. I see no way it could be pressurized, there's nothing mechanical on that side of the master cyl to pressurize it (unless the driver "pressurizes" it by blowing into a check valve at the top, lol).
If the handbrake is completely separate from the main brake system then maybe it can be used as a backup in case of primary brake failure?
this is THE best presentation ive ever seen on youtube!
It’s would be awesome if you guys made a video explaining how that center diff and hydraulic disengage works.
My car doesn't have a brake booster from the factory. Does this make her a race car ? (kappa)
Only if you make blow off valve noises when slowing: pssssshhhhhhhhhstutututu
Mine doesn’t either but then again, it doesn’t reach 100mph and the 0-60 is eventually.
What kind of car? And it doesn't have a booster or it doesn't have a vacuum booster?
@@gofigure84 Dont remember which one i was thinking of then but its probably my moskvitch 412.
@throttle masters Subaru crosstrek switch off the engine downhill already.
Thank you for sharing!
Wait what happens when you remove the booster? Wouldn't the brakes be super hard to press? Interesting in doing this for a drift car if there is no ill effect
The brakes will be hard to press, but the tradeoff is that they'll be consistent and feel exactly the same every time you press the pedal.
Also you will make the car lighter and more powerful, but only very tiny bit lol. But that's the race car way, even F1 drivers have to hold like 400 lbs with their left foot every time they brake. (Well actually you can play around with cylinder sizes and leverages a bit but it's still going to be tough as hell in the beginning lol)
Well what about power steering powered brake boosters ? You thought of that? How they always work no matter if there's a vacuum or not
Mandela Effect hydro boost.
If you have electric steering you won't have that option. Weight and complication of the system is a downside. Using mechanical advantage is simpler and effective.
Francis Grabetz ever heard of electric pump ? That's how mine works and yes I don't have a working engine power steering pump ps. Mine works perfectly even to the point of being my new favourite Master cylinder instead of vacuum powered or manual which was my old favourite type
Mandela Effect the power steering ones works to but in my case it was just easier to use the Electric one plus it's very quiet and works if the engine stalls
Wouldn't the ebrake handle get hot from the brake fluid that goes to the rear brakes sense the brake fluid reservoir is in the handle?
Why not use a vacuum pump instead of using engine vacuum? Or alternatively use some other method of brake assist?
B.D.B. 😏 done aka I have hydro assist powered brakes. bonus Im get is a cleaner signal to the engine ecu so it doesn't think there a gigantic vacuum leak
Vacuum pump and hydro boost are both options. Vacuum pump will pull less power off the engine, though.
weight reduction
In the end every system would just add complexity, weight and parasitic loss without even bringing any real benefit. Racing drivers have legs of steel and their whole braking skill has been built on that stiff and consistent feel of unassisted brakes.
Power steering is a bit different, the extra feedback you'd get from unassisted steering would be nice but not nearly enough to justify the fact that you'd have to use slower ratio rack (bad) and it would still be heavy as hell with the sticky tyres, awd/locks and possibly downforce too. (Not to mention on rough terrain the steering wheel can hit back at your hands and fingers enough to break them)
What do Audi's do when you pull the e-brake and there is no clutches in the transmission so you cannot disconnect the rear wheels from the drive line?
I'm not entirely sure how it works, but most Audi's have Torsen center diffs, which is a limited slip diff. That means, if you pull the handbrake and engage the brakes on the rear wheels, the diff will try sending all the torque it can to the rear axle, so you basically brake all four wheels and stall the engine. That's how I've understood it at least
is it hard to put a vacuum pump on the car?
My car has a mechanical vacuum pump, I get even better servo boost when I'm left foot braking 😁
Hi
how hard is rally car brake to push?
Generally rather hard, but motorsport brake pads bite really hard when hot :)
@@G-force_Motorsport Can you feel the hitting of 100% pedal travel or does it feel like you need exponentially more power , than you can do with your feet?
@@SilentHillFetishist Never reaches full travel, and feels far from ideal when cold, we always try to get some heat into them prior to the first stage. Also depends on the pad compound, I'm running DS2500 at the moment, a fairly conservative one, I've got a low pressure booster mounted in the back of the car to compensate. Will be going to a top spec pad later this year, can hopefully take out the booster.
Depends on the brakes, cylinders, leverages, pedal travel etc but generally I'd say if complete first timer were to drive a short test run, it would result in muscle soreness that would last for few days lol. (Oh BTW racing clutch pedal is hell too)
7:12 "...there's a wide sporectum..."
Lols!
2:40 Surely this only applies for forced induction engines where the inlet manifold is above atmospheric pressure? A naturally aspirated engine would have a higher vacuum under acceleration.
All gas engines have higher vacuum when at idle, because the throttle body is closed with the engine running. The intake manifold basically becomes a vacuum chamber. When you accelerate, the throttle plate opens, and air rushes back into the intake (or pressurized air if forced induction). Your brake booster runs off vacuum, that's why your brakes are nice and soft when you are off the gas, but get very hard if you brake a few times when you're on the gas.
9:50 does this particular example have a locked centre diff then?
If the mid diff wasn't locked, locking the rear wheels on a normal mid differential would make the front wheels turn twice as fast, which would make for very frightening behaviour mid corner if you use the handbrake. Disconnecting the drive to the rear wheels on an open diff would mean all the power spins away to the rear wheel side of the diff and nothing goes to the front though, so the mid diff has to be able to lock to allow the front to be powered while the rear is disconnected.
Hello saw the pressurized msport hand brake in the video. I run 3 Audis and would like to get 3 of them but can not find it anywhere. Can you by chance point me in the right direction. Thanks and love the videos!!
Check out thompsonracingfabrication.com and drop them a line, tell 'em Team O'Neil sent you!
I prefer no brakes🎇
HO LEE FUK SEND ITT
This is brilliant I wish there was a rally school were I live. Perhaps in the future we can partner up and do something cool. We host the ERC here plus the local national rally
Maybe I'm missing something but... Why would you want to disable the ABS system in a Subaru? Doesn't the VDC system use it to control individual wheelspin to aid in traction control?
Dane Galang more like the better Choice is tuning it for profession just like a engine ecu
It helps keep you out of the ditch but it can fight you when you have high level technique.
ABS is not helpful at all on dirt or gravel. More of a hindrance, especially racing on those surfaces.
@@immikeurnot yup wheel lock brakes quicker becaus it diggs the wheels in to the ground so the wheels will push gravel infront of it and brake quicker. And becaus you can easaly transfear movement from side to side by locking your wheels
Lol no. ABS is possibly the single worst thing on modern cars. It is like training wheels for brakes. Helpful for total beginners but if you are halfway competant it is way worse. Anything that litteraly takes the control of your car out of your hands is no bueno.
what kind of wheels do you have on that wrxie
actually abs on the front wheels is not at all stupid idea. not to mention brake booster. gets kinda fucking hard to push the brakes without assist.
Surprised to see "basically everyone" kills the brake booster..maybe better with race brakes or something with a better master.. but damn I don't think I could actually seriously drive my car in any situation, rally or street, without the booster..it takes all of my strength..why not run a vacuum pump and reservoir? Always have vacuum, on/off throttle, in/out of boost..also a lot easier to modulate IMHO when two footing..no stiff brakes vs not stiff throttle.
TeamONeilRally - Thanks for replying. Glad to see someone in rally doesn't think my idea is silly! The hard part with the vacuum pump is either A. Finding an electrical one that can handle it (I've only found very few and they are $$$) or B. Fabbing a mount and belt for a mechanical one, which are still $$ for a decent one. I had planned on going electrical but may just fab a mech mount especially since i have no a/c or p/s and two extra/free pullys. As for MC there's only I think a 1" max for OEM replacement for my car (eg hatch) with either 13/16 or 15/16 stock, which I plan on installing anyway, will see how the brakes feel after that but judging by how hard it is without vacuum with the stock MC, I'd definitely need an aftermarket and/change pivot as you suggested. Just went to the biggest OEM brakes I can fit under 15"s and haven't even broken them in yet, so that will be interesting too.
IdealSound & Performance : Mobile i I'm using hydraulically boost breaks ( bendix 9 aka 1991 jeep ) not vacuum powered:) because of boost and because it has very similar feedback as a manual master cylinder which you can feel tapping on the lines aka very sensitive good feedback from the pads / tires plus a very linear feeling just like manual master cylinders and in my case the miss can't complain about having little to no power brakes so I can turn up the power or down and it's very quiet . Gm used more than one system one is made by Bosch and the other one is on 87 Buick Regal Grand Nationals. I also have extra lines running from the master cylinder and back to automatically bleed and cool my brake fluid just like some race cars but no computerised hydraulics for now aka abs to $$ for me but I'd like to
EG Hatch, yeeeaaah boiiii
Because after very little practice and strengthening you can do it. It's not like it's some "rally only" thing, or low budget. Literally F1, Nascar, Indycar and very big majority of all the race cars in the world run without brake boosters with only very few exceptions.
wow. i learned a lot !
I love your Videos! Keep it up D:
Thought it pulled not pushed, isn't that the point of the vacuum ...
Which is good engine breaking or just regular break. Engine breaking seems to have ABS like control lol
3.20
Subaru brakes are a diagonal split dual circuit brake system. Not front / rear split system.
90% of production cars are setup this way for safety reasons. in case of a brake line failure at least one front brake and rear still function.
jean luc Dubinator
I am fully aware. I was just pointing out that he explained them as a front / back split in the video.
Alrighty then.
Bram Biesiekierski he's off on the abs / traction control there is a significant grip advantage of having it why do you think it's baned in some motorsports heck even Williams international got kicked off the track because it was working so well vs similar cars the biggest problem with factory computers it not being able to tune it for performance / race driving and I started out liking pre Nissan GT-R R 35 computer filled cars aka all mechanical with points and carbonators but as time and progress has march on the computer are better now
Richard Price
There is about a 20-30 year gap between R35s and anything using points, carbs and mechabical anything's.
So with a newer sti (08-17) do I have to tap into the ebrake system at all to fully unlock the center diff when engaging the hydraulic handbrake. I know it's designed to unlock when you pull the ebrake, but should that be triggered with the hydro as well to not damage anything (as much)? Is it as simple as swapping the little button over that gets depressed when pulling the handbrake that triggers the "ebrake" light on the dash or is it more complicated than that?
You're right on target, just make a bracket and swap the little switch over so it still knows you are pulling the handbrake and it still opens the center diff.
Team O'Neil Rally School awesome thank you! One more question, if I was trying to keep my abs, would it be safe to have both rear lines combine into one when it goes into the hydraulic brakes' cylinder, and then have it come out and eventually split into 2 lines on it's way out to the two rear calipers? My hydraulic brakes' only has one cylinder and I really hope I don't have to go out and get a dual cylinder hydro
I want to do these mods to my Toyota 86, I hate the ABS/stability control it malfunctions and is dangerous, would these mod increase braking distance since the electronic braking distribution system will be removed? Thanks
You would certainly get a longer braking distance if you where to lock the wheels --very easy in an emergency, if you're not familiar with non-abs brakes.
I do know some cars have huge rear brake bias once the ABS fuse is pulled, though just disconnecting an abs sensor seems to avoid the issue on at least one car.
I'd really try to find someone in your area familiar with modding the 86, ask around. Here in Australia there's an 86 race series, so some good workshops :)
@@G-force_Motorsport Let's assume good control on the racetrack.
Why would you need to disable ABS?
Because it doesn't work with rally driving, and isn't generally helpful at all on dirt to begin with.
A more detailed explanation: The ABS prevents the tires from digging into the gravel by releasing the brakes permanently during operation -> longer braking distance then with locked wheels (on gravel, mud, ice, snow).
For me the reason was that getting rid of it made the life and brake bias adjuster install on dashboard so damn simple. And brake balance knob is one of the most important things in race car for me, it's magical how well you can tune the car to brake for each surface and situation, and even help with initial turn in by adding rear-bias.
But no, I haven't done any of this to my street legal road car because it needs to pass inspection every year and I can daily drive with ABS just fine, even with the nordic winter weather and my 30 year old car's ABS ECU that has like one channel for the sensors and has update frequency Hz of a drunken gorilla
@@babar292 dude, this video is 6 y.o. Let it go.
@procerator Videos and comments are forever unless stated otherwise. 6 years is nothing anyway, for it is a quality video that cannot grow old. Truth is, I've been blessed by the holy algorithm and I'm going to damn well make the best use out of it !
So is pulling the handbrake in your everyday Subaru bad for the differential?
In short, yes. Lots of stress on the viscous center diff coupling.
Unless it's an STI. STI has an electronic diff that uncouples when the parking brake switch is closed.
So would an 02 sti be able to have a hydrolic e brake? Or would you have to modify the center diff, and if so how would you do that? I've been looking online and I've come up with nothing yet.
We didn't get the STI here in the US until '04 so I'm not exactly sure... You can do it on the mid-2000s STIs, you just need to keep the little electric switch from the stock handbrake handle and mount it somewhere on the lever so it knows to open the center diff.
I don't understand, why do I have "less" vacuum when I'm on full throttle? I'm pretty sure I have "more" vacuum, because the engine sucks more air in and it's the difference in air pressure from the intake manifold to atmosphere. Obviously I'm not speaking about turbo charged engines.
It's a weird one, but basically: When you're zero throttle, the throttle plate is closed and the intake manifold becomes (mostly) sealed to the atmosphere. The pistons are still trying to pull air into the cylinders, so the intake basically becomes a vacuum chamber. When you get back on the gas and the throttle plate opens, atmospheric pressure fills the intake again (or pressurized air if you have forced induction). Most cars have a brake booster that runs off vacuum, so the pedal is very soft and easy to operate at zero throttle (as it was engineered to) but can become very hard to push when you are on the throttle simultaneously.
Yes, I see. Thanks for the quick answer. You're right.
Also... turbo.
What's the big issue with ABS? I thought a decent, new system would detect the surface it's on, and respond much more quickly to traction changes than an average human. Am I wrong? (And yes, I know that good Rally drivers are better than an ABS module, but most people aren't)
ABS is great on pavement, whether you're just driving around or racing, it's a wonderful system that had definitely saved lives and won races... On gravel or snow or anything slippery though, not so much... The car just doesn't slow down that well, on snow it's about double the stopping distance with ABS vs without it. Check out ruclips.net/video/fge_m9u864k/видео.html
I've stared at the abs control box thing several times in my engine bay wondering what the hell it was. I thought it was an siren for the alarm for the longest time lol
2:38 DEEZ nuts
This guy is just genius
Psssh what abs?
My car allows me to heal and toe But if you press the brake and accelerater at the same time the ecu cuts the power which feels sooo dangrouse when it happens so no left foot braking for me 😢.
My old nissan let me left foot brake it didn't have esp or abs so was awsome on tarmac and off road. It was awsom
I guess I'm lucky to have never driven a car with a cutoff. I have noticed that if I'm doing sudden and sustained left foot braking in my Fiat, the "service traction" light comes on. Has happened a few times and made my grin at the sillyness of how it is all tied together
One of the fuses handles it.
Brake sensor switch it might be called.But,check your rear brake lights afterwards.
thanks john
Anyone else click on this video thinking they were going to see the difference between literal on rails street cars vs race cars.
So the handbrake is always down?
Instead of bypassing/removing the brake booster why not just put a vacuum pump in like it's a diesel? That way you have vacuum assisted braking all the time
Basically just for simplicity, less is more. You're 100% correct that a vacuum pump would work, but if you get the right master cylinder and maybe change the pivot point of the pedal, it's pretty easy to push and it works fine.
@@Teamoneilrally More reliability is certainly beneficial in a rally. Curious about what elements in the master cylinder determine the pressure you need to put down when using it without a vacuum booster?
I'm a bit reserved about non-boosted brakes because I forgot to put in the one way valve when rerouting the brake vacuum line on my second ever trackday. Not realising that the pedal will be super hard under turbo boost I went into a right angle corner at 160+kph, couldn't brake hard enough and landed in the sand trap 🤦 but I guess it won't be so bad if it wasn't for the turbo pushing against the brake booster
i dont see advantages of taking out the booster
Don't worry, racing drivers and engineers do see them. Literally all of F1, Indycar, Nascar, WRC etc is running unassisted brakes and it might not be by accident.
Wyat could be talking about a dying bird and I'll still be interested.
Fascinating! What if my car is a race car for the street though? Lol, jk. It is a minivan.
i wish i could come to your school..
My names wyatt ... I have a street wrx😣
Why are Subaru engine bays always such a mess?? o.O
mattmattmatt131313 Any boxer engine is gonna look like shit
Touge S14 yeah, because the cars are actuslly strong enough to take a beating.
ÜLoff Bülgoraff subarus are weak.
Wow...and I thought my booster was a goner!
huh thats cool
Please dont throw break boosters in the woods, unless you are throwing your whole car out into the woods rallying! But please dont do that either.. 😅 stay on the road! 🚘🚫🌲
Long story short, if you want to go rallying, get yourself an old school car; much easier to modify and withstands much more abuse.
Cool story bro.
@@ewcm1878 It's not really a story, is it?
damn that car is done
How can you spend that much time on the inside of the car then just leave the bay looking nasty?
Those are 2 different cars lmao. Maybe listen next time?
I always love these videos, but damn this dude needs to back down on the caffeine. I suppose it takes that kind of energy in that industry.
All said is 100% true. Where did you get such a nice fat I/C?
imagine a hydraulic E-brake with ABS :)
sounds counterproductive
girls be like "they have two brakes, dude?" lmao