Animal Ag Tells Vegans How to DEFEAT Animal Ag
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- Three Minute Thursdays // Episode 144 // February 17, 2023
Animal rights activists don't like when others suggest that maybe their ideas and tactics and strategies aren't working (I know this all too well...). But what if the targets of our activism just come right out and say what they are nervous about and surprise - we in the grassroots movement aren't doing it?
Do we analyze the new info and restructure and reorganize - or are we sure we know the best way forward?
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You're correct. Our org has had Federal Lobbyists in DC, career Lobbyists and last year I started joining in person in meetings (vs just on zoom) and after several trips realized that while they had the network, I ended up leading most meetings bcz I had all the data to back up what we're saying (my career is in data used for advertising). One of my visits I was outside of the Republican House offices & a Capitol PD rushed up to me and said who are you... And you know me I have tattoos on my neck & I thought he was giving me a hard time, but he finally said "we never see people like you in here" and it dawned on me that we need to be in there taking up space. Like we need to be in meetings everyday until the point we're asking these guys (yes mostly men, our political representation is one of the worst in the world) to grab a coffee. So I am registered to be a Federal Lobbyist officially as of January and move to DC on Sunday. And I'm excited for this next phase of Agriculture Fairness Alliance which is that I/we want to start incubating other activists to become career Lobbyists. My hope is to get funding to train people with learning how to write Legislation, host meetings and in person ride alongs while we're challenging policy. Setting up shop in DC to flood DC with vegan lobbyists, with a focus on encouraging black, brown, indigenous, LGBTQ, all ages (especially young people) vegan lobbyists. Where our passion and job intersect and real change to food policy specifically and hopefully other things later (animal testing/university animal testing grants) happen at a more rapid pace. My hope is to get legit office space and all 🥴. Coming from a scrappy activist to give others the confidence as well. Wish me luck‼️
I'm totally here for scrappy activists disrupting business as usual. I'm looking forward to seeing what comes next, and the work you're doing!
RESPECT!! ❤️👍
Absolutely incredible! If there’s something I can do to support from Canada, please let me know. Will also be sending this video to my incredible friend Karry who works tirelessly to inform and challenge government officials to support consumption of vegan foods at government and public events- called Plant Based Cities Movement. Anyway- absolutely wonderful! Thank you!!!!!
LOVE your work so much and am so excited to see vegan activists in DC meeting animal ag where the real decisions are made. I went to American University in DC with a degree in International politics and my first job out of school was at the National Turkey Federation, at the time with an office 4 blocks from the White House and staff in committee meetings all day every day representing the interests of the Turkey growers of the US. The farmers’ lobby is STRONG AF and are all over DC. To battle them on their own territory means a lot, and that’s coming from a virulent anti- vegan for 33 years to a 10 year vegan running the only farm sanctuary in Vietnam for a decade. People change and we very much can work for the other side. I had long planned on being a lobbyist and then escaped the US 17 years ago and never returned to DC. Can’t say I miss the traffic, but keep up the good work! I wish I could be in the trenches there with you!
Wow, that is so amazing! I know absolutely nothing about how that is done or how it works in my country, though :o
Thank you for this video! I run a political animal rights organization myself and get to talk with many food system stakeholders across the board in my context. Many of these points resemble what I've heard. While I do believe that street advocacy organisations are great for recruiting, as a movement we need to aim to elevate those activist's voices into strategic positions that can actually put pressure on the status quo - in organisations working on legal changes, policy, awareness campaigns, in the plant-based industry or even working for relevant stakeholders (i.e. city governments, large retailers, sustainability departments, and so on).
that's good to hear that the suggestions / "threats" here are being echoed throughout the industry.
The faunalytics report was a little awkward. They are talking about getting people to eat a plant-based diet, so disruptive protests will be negative. But if the goal was to shut down a particular company, attack fur, or whatever, these results are not helpful. I wish faunalytics were clearer about that because they make it seem like groups like ALF, DxE, and others doing direct action are dramatically failing, when in reality we need much more of those groups and people.
The wording is a bit wonky - i agree. Because it does seem to vacillate between getting people to eat plant based and advocating for farm animals. The latter, IMO, means more than just vegan outreach. To me, that would include campaigns, protests, stunts etc. and the survey would imply those things don't work. So yeah, some clarification would be nice.
Totally agree! Even though the fur production ban has not been signed into law in Washington state yet, 50% of fur farms have closed since our first year of introduction 3 years ago. The production ban, sales ban, and designers to stop using fur, have caused several farms in WA to shut their doors for good! The octopus farming ban has historically reached a passing vote in its first committee today and is the first time globally any law has been voted on regarding Octopus farming. The media attention has been extraordinary, and the representatives themselves said they’ve had more conversations about this than anything in the past. EVEN IF IT DOESNT PASS THE FIRST YEAR, it is a MAJOR threat!!! We must keep getting these laws introduced anywhere we can! We must continue pressure campaigns to chip away at demand by producers, not consumers! - Animal Rights Initiative
We need to work on both the producers and the consumers. We need to get the individual to go vegan and we need to get the general public to see other animals not as commodities or objects but as living beings, the same as us, in all the ways that matter. We are talking about tactics and strategies and I would like to say that I support PETA but their recent tactic to send fur coats to Ukraine is not a long term strategy. It would have been better for PETA to hold a large publicised event in which they cremate the fur coats out of respect, and explain to the public that they have no right to wear the coats of other animals who have suffered all their lives. People in the Vegan and Animal Rights Movement are still not connecting with the spirituality of the other animals, and until they do we are not going to make the progress that could bring about a vegan world.🌱
From memory, it was also a self-selected online survey rather than a large scale, random survey. Fatally flawed for confusing people who were trying out a plant based for health or eveen poverty reasons were vegans, & reporting them as vegans, even though their own research found that they didn't identity as being vegans, & being uncomfortable at identifying as vegan was one of the reasons they stopped. Ipso facto, they were vegans.
Too right. Rights equal laws. They're not notional sentiments or morals.
The AFA has the right idea for sure. We need to level the playing field in Washington. More lobbying, and getting in the rooms where legislation is happening. Thanks for another awesome video!
Arguably the most poignant little chat yet. The Farm Bill should be in the front of every animal rights advocate's mind.
Thanks for that!
Thanks so much for this video, and for a more nuanced take than IG can provide. While our study looked specifically at dietary change - and we can differ on whether that's an important avenue for advocacy or not - we certainly agree that it is only one aspect of a much broader movement that needs to explore all kinds of strategies, tactics, and avenues of change.
Can you publicly correct the often erroneously repeated claim that "84% of vegans fail" please? It has discredited the movement & is causing a huge waste of advocates' time & energy. I know that's not really what your 2014 report actually said, but that's how it's been taken & repeated (e.g. people who are uncomfortable as identifying as vegans are, ipso facto, not vegans; someone who's just done a plant based diet to lose weight or for healthy is, again, not a vegan etc).
Just seems kinda weird that you would use your platform to essentially discourage folks from taking direct action (disruptive or otherwise). Feels like the study was either flawed or presented disingenuously when it comes to "helping farmed animals". Certainly I was really disappointed by the framing of the ig thread, and personally I think Jake's response in this video is far more helpful in terms of understanding effective advocacy for farmed animals.
@@SamWessel I completely understand the confusion, and apologize for it! The comic artist, I believe, was trying to simplify things with the title and I agree it can be misleading - I did update our description with more data from the studies in the hopes that it helps clear things up. We also did release a companion blog by the researcher who oversaw these two studies that I think helps as well - RUclips will not allow me to link to the blog, but it's on our website with the title "The Challenges of Researching Animal Advocacy Protests"
@@jonahwhale9047 84% of people who had tried a vegan or vegetarian diet returned to eating animal products. However, many of them tried it the way they would try any other fad diet (South Beach, keto, Atkins, etc.) without necessarily having an intention to commit long-term. Others of that number were doing it for financial reasons or other motivations that don't promote long-term 'sticking.' The problem is that none of these facts tend to appeal to mainstream media reporting because it isn't as sexy a headline as '84% of vegans gave up.' One silver lining is that in spite of those deterrents to long-term diet change, the study also found that even people who 'gave up' still eat fewer animal products than the general population. They're still making a difference. We also have more nuanced data available these days, and would refer people who want an in-depth look at new vegans and vegetarians to three reports from the past few years: "Going Vegan Or Vegetarian: Many Paths To One Goal", "Going Vegan Or Vegetarian: Motivations & Influences", and "Going Vegan Or Vegetarian: Barriers And Strategies On The Path To Success".
We'll also have a report coming out just next week that re-analyzes data from the same 2014 study through the lens of what we can do to bring back former vegans and vegetarians. Given that we know they're at least somewhat receptive to diet change, focusing efforts on that low-hanging fruit is worthwhile.
@@Faunalytics See comment above relating to the 84% claim coming up daily multiples times in advocacy & in the Google search results. Is the new report out? Are you going to peer review it this time? "Tried" is a BIG difference from actually being. I'm sorry but I don't see reducetarianism a "silver lining" because what's also been found via peer review study is that "high welfare", happy meat etc actually INCREASES consumption. It takes us no way closer to an animal rights world.
I mean, you wouldn't campaign for "less rape", would you? Nor congratulate men who raped less women, or raped women less brutally, would you?
What's the difference? Animals, invariably female animals, get the rape & are then murdered in their adolescences.
100% Agree.... Not bad for a tired brain!
hahah 💤
This is really good. every activist named on that blog should be very pleased.
Excellent 🙌🏻 If you won’t say you’re right, I will!
3MT keeps me pushing forward. Thank you. It’s encouraging and realistic
Very interesting to hear what is worrying them the most.
I LOVED this; one of your most useful videos. Thanks for posting!
I'm glad you got something useful out of it!
Seems like jackpot info to me.
It's certainly valuable info! Now let's see if we as a movement can use it effectively.
A valuable insight on who/what concerns " animal agriculture" the most!!
Thank you Jake!
Great video thanks for taking the time to put this one together despite tiredness! I think the two are compatible, and they're looking at it from two different perspectives: consumer behaviour change vs. economic/institutional/systemic change. Personally I do believe the latter one is a prerequisite for the former to be able to happen on a mass scale, and that behaviour change is (at the present time) in large part mostly useful for making new animal activists, which are needed to for organising effectively for systems change. Also the Ag Alliance are clearly worried about, and pay attention to the structures that allow them to exist right, lobbies, future consumer base, share of shelf at retail, profitable logistics & supply chain (collaborators), legal system and legal culture. This is what they see with their world view, but it doesn't follow necessarily that they are comprehensively right... other factors outside of their analytic framework might be crucial in moving the needle. On a different topic, adding in the (human) social justice issue in with animals/health/environment is even more potent, and opens the door for integrating allyship across movements. So exposing intersectionality, systems of domination that parallel across speciesism and other oppressions etc., which i know you've talked a lot about. I think its the only way to go.
Suuuuper interesting, thanks a lot!
Thanks for watching
Really interesting. Thanks for the video!
Good job highlighting this information.
However, I'd add that the article you're talking about was only investigating the present (maybe short term) trends. I think focusing on long term cultural change is crucial (and not mentioned). Yet I do realise that social media posts, or the other activist priorities that vegans praise, but went unmentioned in the investigation, are neither part of long term building of a more vegan culture, nor what animal ag seems to be afraid of.
I agree that we need to have a piece in our strategy for long term cultural change. I do think this occupies a large portion of vegan / ar activists activities, which ultimately hinders us. I'm a believer in the 5 points of intervention - one of which is culture - but if we aren't hitting all 5, it makes it very difficult to win. I talk about this more here, if you're interested: ruclips.net/video/5J0MgYzp_aE/видео.html
Some interesting points. Some flawed points.
New Zealand ditched subsidies in the 1980s and it turned out to be a great thing for Animal Agriculture.
Some of the concerns relate to challenging change. Not reduction.
Such a great video; thanks so much for this!
Thank ya!
I know you were so tired when you made this video, but it's as good as they get! Funny how some of the people complaining the loudest about handouts freak out when their subsidies are targeted.
Great info, thank you! I admit to being irked about the Fauna Analytics study, especially being a DxE'r myself. Now that I've got a better sense of the narrow study subject and small sample size I feel it can be discounted. Love instead hearing what animal ag are perhaps worried about.
Can you put a link to the Animal Agriculture Alliance article in the description or something, thanks
Here you go: gprivate.com/63l8y
Great video, and thanks for the thoughts and all the hard work.
Just to play devil's advocate( and put on a tinfoil hat, briefly) If I was high up in an industry that was seeing a rise in activism against it, would I publicly release a list of how best to do more damage to said industry? Or,would I release a list that would lead people to believe this was the most effective angle of attack, with the understanding that I could solve the issues raised in the typical tie up in legal knotts, corrupt lawmakers and/or throw money at it fashion?
Probably not,but who knows. As you say, all the pieces working together, from all angles.
It's possible - but generally these trade organizations are speaking directly to their constituents, to activate them, educate them and raise money off of them. We in social justice circles do just the same.
Great episode, Jake! Thank you!
The thing that should be worrying the animal ag business the most in my opinion is the development of cultured meat and dairy.
So if I combine the 2 sources you mentioned, I should start teaching kids to make vegan burgers. 🤣 But great video as always! Get some sleep!
Dude, you are already at the top of the game!
Did you see the Plant Based News interview with him? Even back then he was already arguing that you could "eat meat & still be vegan", a meme that has travelled a long way since.
ruclips.net/video/njWT0X2aLM8/видео.html
Did you see his Plant Based News interview in 2021 where he was already arguing that you "could eat meat & still be vegan"?
Thanks for all the valuable information.
Just adding that the activists, lawyers, pressure campaign organizers, or youths who were mentioned here as effective, not always, but often, do what they do because they came across people who were doing outreach or education.
One good way to do outreach is in universities where when students become vegan, they choose careers (in law, etc.) to change the system.
RUclips doesn't like links, so I won't, but is this the study, "Planting Seeds: The Impact Of Diet & Different Animal Advocacy Tactics" or "Which Advocacy Tactics are Most Effective to Change Diets?: A Faunalytics Infocomic"?
Planting Seeds is the study, and the Infocomic is a follow-up resource to the Planting Seeds study
@@Faunalytics You've still got the claim "84% of vegetarians/vegans abandon their diet" on your website*. By your own data, this is downright false, nevermind misleading or disingenuous. Your own data specifically states that large proportions of individuals refered to did not identify as veg*n, were uncomfortable with that element, your study only included a very tiny proportion of vegans or plant based experimenters, & yet you are pumping it out into the internet to be regurgitated by anti-vegan trolls encouraging people not to go vegan, or give up.
You may be paid comfortably to do what you do, most of us on the frontline are not, we have to pay with our own time &/or money/life to do what we do promoting veganism, & yet several times a day we are being confronted by the claim "84% of vegans abandon their diet", & people encouraged to do so.
Will you please correct that, change it to reflect reality, & clarify your mistake?
At the very least, if you - as you claim - found 84% of vegan give up, yet EPIC-Oxford found 85% remained, that is simply too great a difference for it to be a real finding. A few % of a difference would be acceptable, a 169% needs explaining.
The explanation being ... you weren't talking to vegans.
Thank you.
* It's been fed into the machine so well, if you ask Google, "Do "84% of vegans abandon their diet?" it links directly to your webpage "confirming" it when the truth it ... you didn't even find that. The people you surveyed were not vegans.
@@Faunalytics And, believe it or not, immediately after finishing the post above, as if on cue, I get another anti-vegan troll telling me "84% of vegans abandon their diet". You people are response for this, the worst fallacious attack on veganism since the "crop death argument" (Least Harm, SL Davis, 2003).
@@Faunalytics A more accurate statement from the study might be, 84% of people trying out a plant based diet did not become vegetarians/vegans. It's not clear which comments referred to those trying a vegan diet but large proportions of those you are calling vegans, didn't identify as vegans, like how it made them stand out, nor associated with other vegans/groups etc. Ipso facto, they weren't vegans. It takes time for most people to work it out & commit.
@@Faunalytics Here's another 350,000 views (so far) video featuring your false claim about "84% of vegans failing. (2m+ subscribers - ruclips.net/video/MpxgZGnEF7E/видео.html). Every day advocates are facing people arguing 100s of time about the futility of trying a vegan lifestyle, because of this false claim that 84% fail. You really need to do more to correct the damage you have created. Thanks.
Very informative.
Great video!
I read a book called Motivational Methods of Vegan Advocacy: A Clinical Psychology Perspective that said the research Faunalytics uses is flawed.
I agree we need to put more effort into targeting industries directly. Talking to individuals is more accessible to most activists though.
Can you be more specific? I remember at the time academics were critical that it was not put out to peer review, it's more of a market research study. Wasn't it a self-selecting, online survey & only had just over 100 vegans, or something?
@@jonahwhale9047 He also said they based some of their research on effective advocacy off of responses from non-vegans.
@@ColburnClark What I've also since found out, from their own summary, was that there were only 129 so defined "former vegans" in the study, & that while 21% of their sample "self-identified as a former vegetarian/vegan, only about half (49%) of these individuals met our definition of vegetarianism (no meat) or veganism (no animal products)".
Simple arithmetic, we're talking about at most findings based 13 people.
Seriously.
They could have gone to Vegan Campout for the weekend and come back with findings from several thousand actual vegans.
They generally don't differentiate between vegetarians/vegans, so it's hard to derive any clarity from it but, 34% maintained the diet for three months or less, 53% adhered for less than one year.
As I've responded to Faunalytics here, it would be better to define them as "never become vegans" rather than ex-vegans.
hey great video! on the topic of pressure campaigns, im in a discord server that does online pressure campaigns. anyone can propose a target, and everyone spends a few minutes per week calling, emailing, and social media commenting against the target. would you be interested in promoting the discord on your channel? you have a lot of activists in your audience and it could really help us up the pressure to get more people on board :)
What's the name of the server? Sounds interesting!
Animals have a right to a healthy environment.
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Wouldnt vegan outreach be tied to youth engagement
Faunalytics need ELF-ed. Their often erroneously quoted claim that "84% of vegans fail" has done so much damage to the movement, & wasted so time & energy correcting. Has this latest one been peer reviewed this time?
I think that study you reference was an important one, and one of the biggest - almost 12,000 people surveyed. I'm sure it's not done perfectly but it does start to shine a light on info that we don't really seem to have anywhere else. And if we were truly as good at vegan outreach as we say we are, and we didn't have a retention problem, we would be a lot farther along on this quest to veganize the world, than hovering at 1-2% of the population.
@@thecrankyvegan It was the 2014 Report (which didn't actually ever say 84% of vegans did but which, 9 years on, has entered into the anti-vegan diatribe as a fact). Faunalytics have a self-admittedly reducetarian approach. That is their thing.
The marketing survey, which is really what it was rather than academic one, was criticized at the time for not being peer review before publication. I forget who or what that came from.
That is the one talking point that has stuck &, anyone on the frontline will tell you, it comes up again, & again, & again. Every day.
Thing is, the movement needs its 1%-ers or purists to maintain standards, to push forward, to take them even further etc. They are the benchmarks by which everyone else is measured. Without standards, there's just Tobias Leenaert.
Have you seen the meta study review that documents the proportion of self-identifies "vegans" in the USA who still eat animal products? I'll dig it out if folk haven't.
It shouldn't be the movement's job to make (the movement shouldn't invest in making) those who compromise. Leave that to someone else's time, money & resources.
I think there's a whole lot of other stuff to be working on that they don't even consider.
@@jonahwhale9047 // it's been awhile since i looked at that report, but the way i recall that bit of information was that out of the people who no longer were vegan / vegetarian after trying it, 84% (or whatever it was) stopped being so after 1 year. Perhaps we are talking about different data points, but that's the one that stuck out to me.
I'm not suggesting there shouldn't be standards. I think veganism is clearly defined and you either fall into that box or not. (how we treat people who don't fall into that box is a whole other discussion which i've had too many times, but I digress...). I have seen a lot of studies that suggest veganism is booming by counting people who eat animals. The most glaring one was the one in the UK that activists still use today to indicate a huge spike in vegans in the country. If memory serves, it was done by a coupon company, you had to pay thousands of dollars to see the actual surveys and results, and people who ate dairy and fish were identifying as vegan.
We clearly don't have lots of actual data that we can rely on and i think Faunalytics tries to change that, even if i don't agree with their effective altruism approach. But I think it's safe to say that there aren't a whole lot of vegans in the world, that isn't changing rapidly the way we need it to, and we should do something differently to fix that problem.
@@jonahwhale9047 I would greatly appreciate receiving more details on this meta study review you mentioned🙏 thank you
@@denisek7 Hi. It mainly related to vegetarians & was 'Is the Percentage of Vegetarians and Vegans in the U.S. Increasing?' August 16, 2018 by Saulius Šimčikas, referring to a NHANES survey that 59% of adults who self-identified as vegetarians in reported eating meat during the two 24-hour periods for which detailed data was collected & an additional 10% who indicated that they ate fish in the last 30 days; & Juan, Yaminia, & Britten (2015) who found that 48% of self-identified vegetarians aged one year and older reported eating some meat, poultry, or seafood during dietary recall days.
YT does not like links, but you'll find it on Animal Charity Evaluators.
If a grain/starch foundation diet is so healthy, why are humans and our pets the only animals on the planet requiring a tooth brush.
Why is it our pets fed commercial 70% grain based pet fast food contend with the same metabolic dysfunction, diseases and obesity as humans eating a grain foundation diet. Type 2 diabetes, cancers, oral health issues, allergies, etc. yet their wild ansestors wolves, coyotes, etc eating a primarily meat based diet have no food/diet related dysfunction or disease. Vegans are to blind to see the forest for the trees. Humans invented agriculture and with it we invented processing and disease.
What does @TheCrankyVegas think? I'm curious.
EXTREME taxes in all animal agriculture goods and services. Extreme tax on animal agriculture in all advanced nations, with the all purpose of getting rid of animal agriculture. (For my part, I will do VC (venture capital) specializing plant-based foodtech, products, ESG, etc., since I'm not a politician. Hah.)
You could buy the animal agricultures (meat, fish, chickens, etc), but you will have to pay EXTREMELY for it. I will fight the vegan fight for animal rights, but I have no problem that in ... whole world aspect of it. That will solve everything... in terms of substantially, saving the world. It covers all things including basic animal rights, environmentalism, and the even heathside of things, which what people fight for, unfortunately.
Aside: I believe that "Health" (your bodies, like Whole Food Plant-Based eating vs veganism) is leading the charge, and "Environmental" is the second argument (ESG, Climate Conferences, and impact startups and innovations, etc.) and close to that is "Animal rights", which is the right way to go philosophically and morally as human beings. But "health" is far ahead "environment" and much farther ahead from "animal rights" for sure (I believe).
The human health is side essential, not the animal side of vegan message we got to push from vegan campaigning.
So, I say, make the main message for it the "Health" side of the going vegan movement followed by animal rights (protest/activism) or environmental messages. In other words, I think you should read/listen videos/etc on the "Health" side of it, and followed by the animals rights side of it. For example:
Physician Committee: youtube.com/@PhysiciansCommittee
NutritionFacts.org: youtube.com/@NutritionFactsOrg
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I had a stroke, which led to my aphasia due to my omnivore habits. I am much more direct since my aphasia (my language and writing is bad, but I'm slowly getting better.) I strip away all the fluff and just get right to the point. I'm not trying to be rude; it's just difficult for me to speak with more subtlety.
Save a cow eat a vegan
i love your vids bro. god bless
What is your actual goal? To stop people eating meat completely?
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