I'm was happy to hear your focus on whole body in your great explanation of Kào (靠). I'm not sure how the English brought the word "shoulder" into the conversation because I don't think Kào (靠) has any connotation of shoulder per se in Chinese. Maybe a better word is "lean", which while involving the shoulder often as a contact point, is very much a force using the trunk and legs.
@@johncosma2137 Glad you are open to new perspectives. Pluck; Function; "To stretch, break or tear from a fixed position by boosting momentum along a course or path that it is already on" That's one interpretation. The important thing is that you come to your own understanding.
@Frank Chiang In standard speech, I believe "cai" offers the idea of picking/plucking or collecting. In the harvest of tea leaves, there are several methods: Zhe Cai - break off the the leaf Ti Shou Cai - pulling the leaf Shuang Shou Cai - snapping off a leaf with each hand With a tea leaf (or apple on a stem) one needs no sudden jerking but ONLY if one is holding the stem (or another leaf) and the pulling eventually causes the leaf to snap off. With an opponent, you may not have those two opposing movements and the sudden jerking becomes necessary. In a martial context, the value/power of cai is how it JERKS the opponent and can be devastating to a joint. (Note how easily the addition of Lie can provide the forces in opposite directions and result in the snapping off.)
Cai combines An and Lu. It is both downward energy and absorbing energy. (You would never "pluck UP and AWAY from yourself!). As Frank implies, most of the attempts to translate into non-Chinese languages fail. Thus, cai has both pull, pluck, grab, AND "catch" connotations.
@Frank Chiang there are several Jins. An is downward force - that’s it. If it’s not a downward force, then it’s not An. Upward force is Peng, sideways is Lu. They are specific jins.
@Frank Chiang not up for an argument either, it’s only words anyway. In the end it’s all about whether you can issue Jin or not, whether we can do it. All the best mate, enjoy your training.
The way I was trained and train, push is indeed downward because the torso has to sink downward to express the elastic/ expanding force. I think the dispute you are having with the other viewer is over what happens next. After we yielding to build the internal pressure by sinking, we rotate the hip forward while the spine and groin of the substantial (rear) leg continues to elongate (stretch) downward. This causes the body to go forward toward the heel of the front or lead leg. We were trained the arms move forward as the result the sinking and rotation of of the shoulder blades and hip joints and that the arms move last. Both of you are correct. It took me 10 years to begin to comprehend the 5 Phases that generate Peng and I am no master but this is how we train the Yang An Jin. Even though I am describing the Phases sequentially, our teacher tells us that Yi should make them all happen at the same time. All the energies (postures) have Peng because all involve of the Postures involve the 5 Phases. I understand that Peng also means Ward Off, the Posture. But the Peng that permeates all the Postures is the Expanding/Elastic Energy.
I'm was happy to hear your focus on whole body in your great explanation of Kào (靠).
I'm not sure how the English brought the word "shoulder" into the conversation because I don't think Kào (靠) has any connotation of shoulder per se in Chinese. Maybe a better word is "lean", which while involving the shoulder often as a contact point, is very much a force using the trunk and legs.
perfect coaching.love to have him as my sifu.
Thank you kindly
John, Cai is often translated as "Pluck" which I believe allows for greater understanding. "pull down" seems a little narrow conceptually. Thanks
I like that. I was taught that "pluck" was a separate Jing but I can completely see how those can be synthesized together. Thank you
@@johncosma2137 Glad you are open to new perspectives. Pluck; Function; "To stretch, break or tear from a fixed position by boosting momentum along a course or path that it is already on" That's one interpretation. The important thing is that you come to your own understanding.
@Frank Chiang
In standard speech, I believe "cai" offers the idea of picking/plucking or collecting. In the harvest of tea leaves, there are several methods:
Zhe Cai - break off the the leaf
Ti Shou Cai - pulling the leaf
Shuang Shou Cai - snapping off a leaf with each hand
With a tea leaf (or apple on a stem) one needs no sudden jerking but ONLY if one is holding the stem (or another leaf) and the pulling eventually causes the leaf to snap off. With an opponent, you may not have those two opposing movements and the sudden jerking becomes necessary.
In a martial context, the value/power of cai is how it JERKS the opponent and can be devastating to a joint.
(Note how easily the addition of Lie can provide the forces in opposite directions and result in the snapping off.)
Cai combines An and Lu. It is both downward energy and absorbing energy. (You would never "pluck UP and AWAY from yourself!). As Frank implies, most of the attempts to translate into non-Chinese languages fail. Thus, cai has both pull, pluck, grab, AND "catch" connotations.
An is not a push forward, it’s a downward energy.
@Frank Chiang there are several Jins. An is downward force - that’s it. If it’s not a downward force, then it’s not An. Upward force is Peng, sideways is Lu. They are specific jins.
@Frank Chiang not up for an argument either, it’s only words anyway. In the end it’s all about whether you can issue Jin or not, whether we can do it. All the best mate, enjoy your training.
The way I was trained and train, push is indeed downward because the torso has to sink downward to express the elastic/ expanding force. I think the dispute you are having with the other viewer is over what happens next. After we yielding to build the internal pressure by sinking, we rotate the hip forward while the spine and groin of the substantial (rear) leg continues to elongate (stretch) downward. This causes the body to go forward toward the heel of the front or lead leg. We were trained the arms move forward as the result the sinking and rotation of of the shoulder blades and hip joints and that the arms move last. Both of you are correct. It took me 10 years to begin to comprehend the 5 Phases that generate Peng and I am no master but this is how we train the Yang An Jin. Even though I am describing the Phases sequentially, our teacher tells us that Yi should make them all happen at the same time. All the energies (postures) have Peng because all involve of the Postures involve the 5 Phases.
I understand that Peng also means Ward Off, the Posture. But the Peng that permeates all the Postures is the Expanding/Elastic Energy.