Oxford School Counselor details interaction with Ethan Crumbley parents during pre-trial
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- Опубликовано: 23 фев 2022
- Oxford High School counselor Shawn Hopkins testifies during a pretrial hearing for James and Jennifer Crumbley on February 24, 2022.
STORY: Crumbley Parent Ordered to Stand Trial www.mlive.com/news/2022/02/pa...
As I was listening to the counselor describe the parents' reaction to the fact that their child was displaying signs of suicidal ideation, I couldn't help but think: Hell's bells. I show more concern when one of my cats is in distress.
The counselor was lazy and didn't take the time to review the evidence he was presented with prior to the shooting. He never took the time to properly assess Ethan. He misled these parents when he said Ethan was suicidal not homicidal, and only recommended therapy within 48 hrs. These parents were failed by this negligent counselor.
Maybe the parents did not take Hopkins seriously when he said Ethan was suicidal because he wasn't!
But fur babies are beautiful. This monster is not.
@@mtio2807 your words are less than humane.
@Alex Korova a trained professional told these parents to seek therapy for Ethan within 48 hrs. This makes him negligent. But not only that. Ethan was not even suicidal. This shooting happened because Hopkins did not properly assess Ethan and the situation. He allowed Ethan back to class without checking his backpack, because he concluded Ethan was not a threat to others. The Crumbleys trusted this negligent counselor. Mrs. Crumbley told her boss (after the meeting took place) that she needed to get therapy for her son, whom she believed had suicidal ideations (not actively suicidal). And no one ever told these parents Ethan was homicidal. Hopkins failed everyone at Oxford High including the Crumbleys. If Ethan had commited suicide, would the parents have been charged with involuntary manslaughter? I don't think so. Suicides happen every day and many people suffer from depression, but their loved ones don't understand or know about it. Who faces charges after a family member has commited suicide? No one! This doesn't justify charging these parents. If trained professionals failed to foresee this, then how can we expect the parents to have known?
I’ve never seen a kid cry out to his parents for help more. WTF kind of people are they??! Most kids hide issues like that - he actually told them, so many times! He did everything except beg them. Unbelievable.
From a different perspective, Ethan was not a gang member, drug addict, no history of misconduct, had good grades and school attendance record. So, how horrible are these parents? Did they ignore the signs or were they missed? Are you familiar with this condition? It makes you feel aches and pains which aren't real. Parents are not trained professionals to spot depression, but Hopkins is. He failed these parents when he told them Ethan was suicidal and only recommended therapy.
Perhaps they didn't understand what Ethan was going through. Parents aren't trained to spot depression. Not every parent would drop everything and take his kid to the shrink. Most likely they thought he was being silly. Karen makes it seem like these are the worst parents in the world, but as she said herself, this is not a crime. But from a different perspective, I see Ethan lived in a relatively good home with both his parents, he was not a drug addict, not a gang member, no history of misconduct, well fed, etc. Karen blows things out of proportion, and people buy it.
@@braindirt7499 but he literally asked them 4 times to get him help. They both stated that. 4 times is not being silly. Plus they knew what he was writing in his journal which was scary shit and enough to get even the most laidback parent to agree to counseling. And after seeing his drawing that day? And hearing what he said? And just being annoyed that the school called them in? He was screaming for help. It’s like they had a dozen chances and ignored them all. I can see parents not acting on the first or second comment or incident. But come on, the kid was making it crystal clear he needed serious help.
@@divinetiming8422 hearsay
@@divinetiming8422 based on what?
Jesus. She just confirmed everything the prosecutor just asked him. Sounds like she's trying to push the blame to the teachers, counselors, dean etc...take all the blame off the parents. That prosecutor is good. Go get em girl. Justice for the victims.
That’s precisely her strategy. That’s all she has got.
👍🏾👍🏾🌝
You could NEVER EVER take the blame off the Crumbley's ! SORRY ! It does not even compute in my mind ! Unless you think parents are not in this world to raise & teach their offspring right from wrong ! Those parents showed their guilt by RUNNING AWAY emptying their bank accounts & even Ethan's too ! If they did nothing wrong WHY RUN ? School officials meantime stayed there the WHOLE TIME throughout the whole ordeal ! That is the problem with watching those in power positions today ..... ITS NEVER THEIR FAULT , NEVER TAKE RESPONSIBILITY TRUMP'S MOTTO !
@@ag4allgood I'm not sure whom you are addressing with your comment. I stated she was trying to push the blame to the school and off the parents. I can tell you 100 % those crummies are to blame. I have listened to the entire pre trial and by their actions they FAILED as parents. Did the school drop the ball? YES. The moment that teacher took a picture of the drawing and forwarded it to the higher powers that student should have been removed, locker search, backpack search they were on school property. Second opportunity, they had the parents there if they were not sure of "policy" they could have asked the parents permission to search locker and backpack and finally, police are on site at Schools they had probable cause to search so they could have secured a search warrant if need be.
Trump 2024 🇺🇲 since you mentioned politics.
@@surgicaltechcrafter2169 School was NOT INFORMED by the wonderful Crumbley parents of their EARLY gifting of mentally unstable Ethan a GUN ! They had EVERY Opportunity to TELL THEM the day of the shooting ! BIG FAIL to notify the school counselors ! MANY BIG CRUMBLEY PARENTS FAILS here for a teenager asking for help ! The school has a job to educate & Ethan played them by asking for homework assignments of all the classes he was missing after being pulled out ! Danger ? Its ALL ON THE CRUMBLEY'S ! Its a free country put the blame where ever you want Crafter ! My politics are neither Right nor Left ! I believe in the 2A but not for mentally deranged people !
The camera is not focused where it should be and the audio is bad.
It’s driving me nuts with all the background noise
She won’t leave work when the school counselor is calling to have an immediate meeting but she will leave instantly if there’s something wrong with her horses….
Yeah go figure.
And if she indeed works an hour away, how did she get to the school within 20 minutes?
@@peanut924 Good point👍🏾
I dont believe his parents had a clue. They were totally out of touch and totally self absorbed. They should have never been parents.
Just because people can have kids doesn't mean they should. And these two should never be allowed to reproduce again, hell they shouldn't even be allowed to be pet owners although they treated their horse better than their disturbed kid.
They both knew just didn't care, I believe they bought him that gun to hurt himself so they could live their lives. Sounds harsh but those parents didn't care about him or anyone else except themselves.
They self medicated him and told him to "suck it up" when their minor child was begging for help.
The defense is trying to state that mom and dad weren’t aware of anything…that’s not really a defense? Who’s job was it to know what was going on with this child!? His PARENTS!!
Exactly 👏🏽
So glad you said it! The defense lawyer is horrible. Blame the teachers for the parents failing … ugh!!
Exactly, the whole point is, they should have known. The poor kid practically beat them over the head to ask them for help and they dug their heads in the sand, only coming up to buy him a lethal weapon. Smh.
given the phone texts published one has to be absolut ignorant not to realise that ethan was/is deeply disturbed. if my child would show signs like ethan did i would drop everything and be by his side to help him. because i CARE.
It's precisely how they're not guilty of involuntary manslaughter. The parents did not know Ethan was homicidal. In fact, the one who should've known and failed was trained professional Hopkins, who came to the wrong conclusion Ethan was suicidal.
This is devestating. As humans, we always go back in our heads after a tragedy and wish we’d done something different even when it isn’t our fault and there’s no way we could’ve possibly known what was to come. Having it verbally manifested in this way must be so psychologically destructive for someone, especially someone innocent. Nothing in this man’s testimony is incriminating; I hope he’s able to find peace and not blame himself.
I heard Hopkins say he did not take the time to watch a video attached to an email forwarded to him from a teacher. He also said he thought Ethan had suicidal ideations and only recommended therapy. So, in my opinion he commited gross negligence when he failed to review all the evidence presented to him prior to the shooting, and involuntary manslaughter when he misjudged the situation, misled the parents into thinking Ethan was suicidal (not homicidal) and only recommended therapy within 48 hrs, and when he failed to report the situation to the authorities. He also commited perjury when he said he did not know the Crumbleys owned guns, because we all know Mr. Hopkins had met with Ethan on Nov. 29 regarding Ethan's inappropriate search for ammo online during class. And Ethan told both the teacher and Mr. Hopkins he had gone to the shooting range with his family the weekend before. Guilty without a doubt.
This witness can't sleep at night because he knows darn well he screwed up. He didn't file a 3200, instead he took it upon HIMSELF to merely make sure Ethan attended each class (until the shooting that is) . This counselor is at fault for taking that on instead of having psychiatric professionals assess Ethan for 72 hours and keep him safe for 72 hours! If this counselor was so concerned about suicide, not homicide, but suicide, he should have filed the 3200. He took 100% responsibility unto himself and guess what? He messed things up to the tune of 4 lives.
I'm not saying the parents aren't even more guilty! They should have told the counselor Ethan owned a gun. But instead THEY took responsibility unto themselves to deal with that knowledge. And how did they deal with it? They went back to work.
@@braindirt7499 so many clues but Guess what....he is White 🤍🐻❄️ all this gets so much hype when case's like this happen all the time ...why is this a ppv
@@armandoclark5001 good grief that's ridiculous.
The microphone could have been located in a much better location. All that paper shuffling is annoying and blanks out what is being said!
Could the lawyer for Mr. Crumbley PLEASE STOP RUSTLING PAPERS for no apparent reason, screwing up this sound recording.
Yesssss!
They paid more attention to their horses than their son….
If I was the Crumbley’s, I would just go with the public defender they think is good enough for their son. If they are paying those two attorneys more than $5, it’s too much! Not impressed.
🤣😂 yes!
Both lawyers are a joke and they should atleast have SEPERATE council firms
Lori Green You can't just get a public defender. You only get one if you _can't afford one._ The kid is being tried as an adult, and obviously he's got no funds. Employed Mom & Dad are a different story. And hiring a defense lawyer is a crap shoot. Most of them will take all your dough and you're still going to get nailed, especially in Federal Court. PLUS these two probably had to trust someone else to secure their counsel as they were not granted bond.
I read up on the brunette and she is not a rookie, but watching her so far, I'm bound to believe that her bio and other articles have slanted the truth about her experience! She's a terrible defense attorney and a bad mother too!
@@Barredeux they've been asked by two different judges if they wanted to stay with their current council or if they wanted to secure other council and they declined both times. So they have indeed had the opportunity to pick their own lawyers. Why they kept deciding to keep the council they have is a mystery but we know the Crumbley's are not that bright.
I had bad/inadequate parents & parenting so, most of this is familiar to me. What's sad is how society REFUSES to honestly look at parenting and deal with the ugliness that bad parenting produces. My brother did time for ARMED ROBBERY, and, thanks to therapy, I can say exactly what happened to him & why and that it all comes down to ROTTEN PARENTING. Societies need to get honest and DO SOMETHING about BAD PARENTING - which consistently turns out BAD KIDS (like my brother) who then leave home and commit all kinds of crimes - thanks to faulty/inadequate parenting! Genetics or insanity might be part the picture, but BAD parenting is usually the basic problem.
I've said it for years, mate. The whole "I can raise my kids how I want" needs to die. There are too many parents whose selfishness and self-centeredness, plus other issues, leads to bad kids. The good kids are the exception, not the rule. Bad parents can snuff out a kid's life in a snap and that doesn't only mean death.
This case demonstrates these inadequate parents are going to be held accountable. It's a start, stay strong.
Lots of people turn out fine, there’s a balance to life you can’t regulate. It is a fine line when you try to police parents. It starts at a universal morality that doesn’t change over night
Amen Jim rich,people in America sex it up,have kids without a clue to raise them properly, then get divorced.jail is overflowing with criminals from broken homes.
Wake up America
Mental Health and birth control major problems in U.S.
CHARGE THE PARENTS!
There’s also something to be said about you recognizing the behavior of your parents and making the choice to not go down that road. Just as children of alcoholics can choose to not pick up a bottle/can , the choice is up to the individual whether or not they want to repeat the cycle. These parents made the choice to leave their child at school and now have to live with their choice.
“Who’s the best person to find out about a student apart from the student themselves?”
“The parents”
Well, there you have it.
Excellent final question from the prosecutor!
I think the defense should take a new tactic. Try these instead:
"The bus driver drove him to school with a gun in his bag. That was reckless to all the other students on the bus. Why didn't the bus driver inspect his bag before getting on and after getting off?"
or
"The school requires a dress code but they don't require see through backpacks. How would they know if a gun is brought on to school property without inspecting every students bag? It's just child endangerment."
Anybody but the parents, right?
That’s what drew me into this case to begin with because I wondered why are they charging the parents when an almost 16 year old kid brought a gun to school and shot people bc most of the time the parents aren’t charged in cases like this … But might I add, it all makes sense now they neglected that kid horribly!
@@kjjjj5202 I was a kid with mental illness, I was in and out of therapy since I started school almost. My parents saw when I needed help and made sure I got it. I can't imagine what it must be like to not have that kind of support and I'm glad I never had to know.
Right? Their defense is ludacris!
Love the defense trying to blame counselor and they take no responsibility
This is why the prosecutor did not file charges against the school though. Because the prosecutor needed this counselor's statements to make her case against the parents! And it is true that the parents know a child next in line to the child himself. Then friends or the school come in next.
It's messed up that they had enough time to teach him how to shoot a gun but they didn't have enough time to get him some therapy ask for it that's what they should have been spending time with him with
They probably wanted him to use the gun to commit suicide but it backfired.
Tell his mom; to lil too late for her chicken scratchins to her lawyers
??? She has a right to a defense, and she's wise to be active in her own defense. Who better than she to inform, enlighten, and arm her attorney prior to the actual trial?
Right lol Maybe she should have stayed at work doing her chicken scratchins instead of sneaking off with another man to have sex.
@@chrissyellem7397 uhmm, uhmm
I don't know about Michigan, but I can tell you in Oregon it's nearly impossible to get a same week, let alone same day therapy appt. Many therapists are completely booked and ones that aren't often will get you in at whatever unbooked times they have regardless of whether it's urgent. Even when you're an established patient you aren't guaranteed a same day appointment if something comes up.
Except she didn't cover him on her medical plan.....the horses had coverage.
I think they had 48 hrs to schedule an appointment for his counseling. I don’t think the actual appointment had to be in that 48 hrs. I’m not positive but I’d assume that they would know that it would be pretty much impossible to get same day or next day appointment. He should NOT have been allowed to return to class in my opinion
The counselor should have recommended a mental health assessment to assess for suicidal and homicidal ideations. This can be completed at a hospital or mobile crisis. The assessment is completed by a licensed psychiatrist or licensed mental health professional. If the patient is not deemed to be a danger to self or others, recommendations for therapy and/or medication management can be made.
They cold take him to the hospital and they would give him a psych eval. From that point they would decide if he should stay for a psych hold for further/more in-depth psychological testing and evaluation
you call that a excuse for letting homicidal and suicidal child to stay in school? You sound like those Crumbley. Please don't have kids
This clearly THESE PARENT'S FAILED IN All Aspects of their son's LIFE. They deserve to go to jail for neglecting their responsibilities. THEY ARE VERY SELFISH.
As Karen McDonald said: they're allowed to be terrible parents. Selfishness is not a crime. But going further, these parents are not as bad as McDonald is trying to make it seem. Mrs. Crumbley couldn't possibly care more about her pet horses than her only child. It's just ridiculous. A mom is allowed to have a life, healthy hobbies, and seek success in her work place. It seems like James Crumbley stepped in taking care of Ethan so she could do these things. Ethan lived in a relatively good home with both his parents, he was not a drug addict, gang member, no history of misconduct, good attendance at school, appeared well fed, etc. Ethan was going through something his parents couldn't understand because they're not trained to spot depression or homicidal ideations. But Hopkins is. Yet, he failed to assess Ethan properly, misleading these parents with his conclusion of suicidal ideations. He never took the time to review the evidence he was presented with prior to the shooting. And he never told these parents Ethan was a threat to others. Now he wants them to take all the fult for his negligence.
This makes me dislike these parents even more 😠 😡 😤
Someone just needed to give that kid a freaking hug
She’s a horrible mother. She tells him after he gets in trouble at school for looking up ammo that “LOL I’m not mad, you have to learn to not get caught “ the fact that her 15 year old son was seeing things and hearing “demons “ at home and she couldn’t be bothered to reply to his many texts about it! How can you not know your son has hidden bird heads in jars in his bedroom? He’s still young! They knew he was suffering with his mental health and didn’t care. But she sure did care about her horse’s leg problems. And her BOYFRIEND! 🤦♀️ A good mother makes it a point to be involved in her children’s lives, to love and support, to be there when needed! She should have known he was struggling and got him help even without him saying anything. And to try to run away when he’s caught in jail only worried about herself, instead of being there to help him and hire him a expensive attorney, while she takes a court appointed one...I’m just saying. She is a pos in my opinion.
Agreed!
I think they are going to get the maximum penalty 15 years on each of manslaughter/murder consecutively total of 60 years in prison with the possibility parole when they reach majority of age in their century age 104's. Mainly A MANTORY NATURAL LIFE SENTENCE
No she isn't. I don't believe a word the MSM says ETHAN deserve prison the parents nope and they wont get it
@ katie Lovings SPOT ON!
@Cats Are Very Nice True, however he was texting her at 7pm saying there are demons in the house. She didn't respond until 10 am the next day and didn't even address those texts. She asked where his dad was.
The counselor and school staff had a "Duty to Warn". This is a student who should NEVER have been sent back to class. This stdt also had a well known hx and a pattern of behavior that was signaling MH issues. The police should have been notified and they would have searched and confiscated any weapons. An IMMEDIATE crisis eval should have been conducted.
The counselor should lose his job. Had a chance to call police or CPS when parents refused to take kid out of the school.
It's called a 5150. That's the law and that law has been being exercised since the 1970's.
Why the hell would the counselor know where his parents work and how far or that dad was local and was working for door dash?. What are these questions? Everything leads BACK TO THE PARENTS!!! He basically said that he needed to leave that he needed Therapy TODAY. When kids get sick at school the parents pick up there kids and TAKE THEM HOME
The only thing prepared by the defense attorney is saying, “CORRECT?”. That’s it. This is like the first Zoom call circus all over again. “CORRECT?”. 🙄
I’m a teacher and cannot believe how much the state is sweeping responsibility away from the school.
After a meeting like that, searching the student’s backpack, locker, and car is MINIMUM standard protocol. Doing so would have prevented 4 deaths and gotten Ethan immediate help.
A meeting like what? One in which a Parent or Guardian willfully neglects to provide relevant information about the child that only they know?
EXACTLY!! It’s ridiculous!!! I can’t believe how much of the public is buying it up too, defending the school! It’s unacceptable. This whole this was preventable.
@@kathleenullmann4602
A meeting in which the child’s violent drawings and fixation on GUNS is discussed at length. Searching his backpack, locker, and car is always MINIMUM standard protocol in situations like this. The school administration has a responsibility to ensure the campus is 100% weapon-free at all times, and they didn’t even take the basic steps here.
This does not absolve the parents from their negligence - it’s just VERY puzzling as to why the state isn’t holding school officials up to the same level of accountability.
@@kathleenullmann4602 I think both school and parents are at fault. It shouldn’t be one or the other. Both parties made bad decisions that resulted in 4 deaths
@@twinkletoes6290 That counselor, however, had 400 students to watch over, to babysit, often because parents aren't stepping up. These two parents had one kid. Their flesh and blood. What did they do? Well, the only thing I can see that they did for sure was buy him a gun and dismiss the school’s concerns.
Prosecutor gonna smoke them at trial , they better take that first deal 😂
Why is it being made to sound like all the onus is on the counsellor, as opposed to his actual parents??
I feel so bad for the counselor (not to mentiont the families). I wish I could send him somewhere nice until all this is over. Seriously, I'm a little worried for him. I wish I could tell him that I understand his position, that he tried to protect the student. How was he to know that the parents created a monster.
I disagree with this. I feel awful for the counselor, and yet he stumbled. He should have asked about access to firearms, means restriction is one of the first interventions for a person assumed to be suicidal, and not asking is negligent.
I don’t feel sorry for him at all. He was pretty negligent in his conversation w the parents and asking all the questions he needed to in order to make sure Ethan was safe - since that was his main concern, nor did he seem to communicate w them as clearly as possible about just how serious he thought this situation was to them. He dropped the ball quite a few times in his interactions w Ethan, his parents and how he handled this whole situation and as a result, Ethan slipped right through the cracks to go on to do what he did. Ethan had voluntarily offered up the day before that there was at least a gun in that house by saying he and his mother went to the shooting range and it’s something they did as a “hobby”. At no time when the parents were there did this counselor ask the parents how many guns they owned, if Ethan had direct or easy access to them, where and how they were stored, were they in a fingerprint locked safe that Ethan could not access at all - or was it a key lock safe and where was that key kept - did Ethan know where the key was, did he have easy access to it, etc! If he was as concerned as he was for Ethan’s safety, his suicidal ideation and thought he may become suicidal, at no point did he tell the parents that it was crucial they make sure Ethan absolutely could not get access to the gun/guns they owned and even suggest that the situation may be serious enough to warrant temporarily removing the guns from the home to absolutely ensure Ethan had no way of accessing them at all - to suggest they ask a family member or friend to take them until Ethan was in a better and more stable mental health condition! If he was as concerned for Ethan’s safety as he claims he was, he most certainly should have checked Ethan’s bag before sending him off for the rest of the day bc kids can still harm themselves, attempt to commit suicide or successfully commit suicide on school property. He knew there was at least one gun in the house, there could have been more (he never found out if there were more or just how many guns bc he never did ask!) and he should have made sure to check Ethan’s bag to make sure he didn’t have that gun before sending him back to classes, which would have prevented all of this! There also could have been other things in Ethan’s bag that he could have used to harm himself or use to try to commit suicide - things like an X-Acto knife, razor blades (for self harming, cutting & can also be used to commit suicide), drugs that Ethan could have been using to improperly deal w his mental health struggles or w the intention to overdose, all kinds of things!
When the parents were called to meet w him, I do really feel that the counselor should have spent some of the meeting w just him and the parents, where he could have been more blunt and straight forward w the parents in his probing and what he was saying to them, not having to worry about what was being said and how in front of Ethan, where he could have and should have communicated how serious of an issue this was. Then brought Ethan back in where they all could have discussed this and involved Ethan in the conversations.
It’s surprising to hear he did not watch the video that Ethan had been watching in order to asses it, but simply took Ethan at his word for what the video was - still not being able to properly analyze and asses the video and how it played into the whole situation. Who knows, maybe if he watched the video, maybe it would have given him an impression that Ethan was a possible danger to not only himself, but others as well - which would have, or at least should have, completely changed the dynamics of this situation, how it was handled overall, the outcome and what was done. We’ll never know that bc the counselor didn’t actually watch the video Ethan was caught watching.
When Ethan’s Dad voluntarily brought up a journal Ethan had, at no time did the counselor probe Ethan about this journal, ask him how often he wrote in it, what he wrote in it, etc. He also didn’t ask Ethan where the journal was or if he had it on him, and if so - could he please look at it! If he had searched the bag, he would have seen the journal and would have been able to look through it and from everything we’ve been hearing about it, what he would have seen in there would have drastically changed the dynamics of the situation, how it was approached and handled, the outcome and what was done. That’s not even factoring into the situation that he would have also found the gun if they had searched his bag! Just seeing what was in that journal would have been enough to completely change this situation. Honestly, the counselor should have been asking questions to Ethan before he even called the parents or before the parents even got there that would have lead to Ethan divulging in him that he keeps a journal. That shouldn’t have been news to the counselor that was delivered by the parents!
There were many openings in his interaction w Ethan where the conversation could have and should have naturally lead to the journal. The fact that Ethan had written those things on the math assignment that had the counselor concerned about suicidal ideation. That when probed, Ethan began to confide in him & open up about the troubles he was having - things like the dog passing, his friend moving away, how hard things have been since Covid, how difficult - challenging & lonely virtual schooling had been, all of those things. There were multiple opportunities during that entire interaction itself where the counselor could have and should have asked Ethan if he writes things like this other times, if so - where and how often does he write them. Specifically asking him if he keeps a journal or even just has a notebook that he writes these kinds thoughts and other thoughts, feelings, concerns, fears, happy times, hopes and plans for the future, etc in and if so, how often does he write in it, where is this journal/notebook, does he have it on him now, etc.
To hear that the entire interaction once the parents got there was only 15 or so minutes doesn’t really demonstrate that the proper time was given to have a long enough discussion w the parents, w the parents - Ethan & the counselor, to really ask the proper questions and to get a good assessment and feel of the situation & dynamic, to properly and clearly communicate w the parents to inform them of just how concerned the counselor was and how serious of a situation he thought this was so that they could fully understand the gravity of it and to come up w a clear & concise plan of how this was going to be handled, what they needed to do and be ensured that these things would get done, be addressed in a timely manner since it was such a time sensitive manner and this would all be handled appropriately.
Hell, the limited time he spent w Ethan before he called his parents and had them come down was too short for him to dedicate enough time to have a conversation w Ethan to where he could really ask all of the questions he should have been asking and do a much thorough assessment of the situation and Ethan so he knew what he was dealing w before even getting the parents involved, so that way when he did get the parents involved, he had a good assessment and plan in mind on what to talk to the parents about, what questions to ask them and what kind of a plan he was going to suggest to the parents of how this should be handled.
Continued….
2/2
Continued from above
Before this testimony, I was always left w the impression from the media coverage and from how the prosecutor had presented things and what she had said, that Ethan was assessed, red flags had been observed & it had been communicated to his parents that Ethan was a possible threat to himself and others. Now hearing this testimony, it’s been made pretty clear that the schools stance was that based on their limited assessment, Ethan was only possibly a danger to himself - not to others.
I do really feel had they taken the proper time, had asked more questions (some which were blatant that they should have asked - like about the access to the gun), probed more, spent more time w him, checked his had (which would have changed everything), read the journal, found the gun (but even before finding the gun if they would have handled this differently and more appropriately, it would have changed their assessment!), that they would have assessed he was a possible danger to himself and others and it would have changed everything about how this was all handled and would have prevented this from happening!
After hearing this testimony, now I wonder if that text msg from one of his parents (can’t remember which one it came from - I think the mom??) when they heard the initial news about something going on at the school to do w a gun that read along the lines of “don’t do it” (I’m paraphrasing, that may not have been exactly what was said - but I know it was something along those lines) and knowing that the counselor and school had told the parents they felt Ethan was a possible danger to himself (not himself and others), spoke about the suicidal ideation, how he needed to get into therapy for it, how he shouldn’t be left alone bc of the suicidal ideation, etc, that the parent who sent that text msg had the initial thought that Ethan was trying to kill himself in school in front of everyone and that’s what they meant by “don’t do it”??? That it didn’t mean don’t do it in the way it’s been presented in the media and by the prosecutor about not carrying out a school shooting?? Bc from this counselors testimony, it’s pretty clear the focus was on Ethan’s safety, his suicidal ideation, the concerns he could become suicidal, that they thought he was a danger to himself, etc.
I keep getting the feeling like so many ppl want to blame just the parents and are trying to make excuses for and defend the school and others who have played a role in this. I’m more concerned w us figuring out exactly how this happened - how this slipped through all the crack, why the checks and balance system didn’t work here - esp when it seemed like there were a lot of red flags and indications that something was going to happen, who all didn’t do their part fully that are put in place to try to catch these things as early as possible and prevent them. Learning how things went wrong every step of the way and every single missed opportunity or crack he slipped through is key for us to be able to better handle these things in the future and for us to catch them earlier and earlier and prevent them from happening. I think everyone needs to be examined, the role they played, if they didn’t do what they were supposed to do or didn’t handle it properly, finding all the holes and cracks, seeing where this all went so wrong. I’m not zeroed in on just one or two ppl, but the entire system and how it failed. I honestly wish more ppl would be doing the same.
@Meghan Hemmer I guess I can't disagree. Sad that school counselors are put in this position though.
They didn’t create a monster. They created an angry, desperate kid whose empathy and judgement got completely derailed. He was capable of caring for his grandfather and his dog, the only two beings who cared for him, before he lost them and collapsed.
I'm sticking with what I think about this case - the parents need to be severely punished and that boy needs to get the help he desperately wanted but did not get. I detest these parents.
Same sentiment
The sound quality sucks. You can hear lawyers fiddle with papers, tap pen, flip pages...louder than person on stand! Go back to better filming seeing person on stand and unmic the law tables. Annoying...
At least we are able to watch this. Nobody is forcing anyone to watch. They have a job to do and they are not concerned with paper shuffling.
Especially the blond defense attorney! She drank too much coffee she can’t sit still.
Zoom picks up everything and still has poor audio quality. They need a live camera feed, not the Zoom one.
He forgot that he's a mandated reporter. He should have notified child protection immediately. He had suicidal ideations, and knew he needed inpatient care. But he simply felt bad for him after the meeting with the parents and sent him on his way. What a tragic mistake.
Suicidal ideation doesn’t require inpatient care in itself…..my brother in law showed signs of suicidal ideation and no one would admit him because he was wasn’t actively suicidal…
@@novascotiaskater1868 The therapist knew he was in crisis and said he needed an evaluation within 48hrs. He was not fit to continue in school until then. That's why the parents were asked to take responsibility for his care. When they refused responsibility, he was obligated consult child protection services.
Abuse and neglect are the criteria for reporting. School personnel are generally trained to notice evidence of physical abuse or words provided by the student regarding neglect or abuse. However, this is coming from a veteran teacher and former dean, and the kind of training that counselors undergo may be different. I can't speak for this witness, but it does not appear from the evidence I've heard that the school personnel were negligent. Should the dean have checked the backpack? Probably. But I wouldn't think it is legally negligent that he didn't.
@@travisseay5763 The neglect was made obvious by the parents.
@@travisseay5763 You've got a kid with a broken leg. The parents refuse to take the kid. What's the schools responsibility at that point? Send him back to class? The gun in the bag is moot. Because the intervention failed.
She is not even asking the witness any questions. She is literally speaking the entire story and forcing the witness to say correct. This is unreal. Why is she allowed to do this?
Because its time to just cut to the chase and lock them up
@@kaivrock amen 🙏
It’s a pre-trial hearing
I completely agree!! That counsel is a joke! Everytime she uses that CORRECT tactic It's cringeworthy .I love how they are destroying their chances.
I think this is the very defense of “leading the witness” and I don’t know why the prosecutor doesn’t object each time.
Counselor who spent 3 cumulative hours with the student over 180 days vs. people who live with him...totally the counselor's fault. 🙄
He showed so many signs of being a risk to himself and possible others I think the school should also be investigated on how they handled this. Have all other parents of teen murderers been investigated? So tragic for all who lost their lives very sad
Schools are not babysitters. Those parents just wanted their kid to be somebody else’s problem. I think the school escalated the issues to the parents appropriately.
@@lorigreen4134 thanks for being brave enough to state this. After watching this entire video, it is clear that the school and the counselor followed protocol. In fact, I think the counselor deserves praise... He was the ONLY ONE expressing concern and compassion for Ethan, even though he only had a tiny fraction of the story and Ethan had only been on his radar for 24 hours. Blame falls 99.9 percent on the parents. It was their job to check Ethan's journal and backpack, not the school's. It was their responsibility to alert the school to Ethan's mental health challenges. It was their responsibility to raise a loving, balanced child, not the school's. I could not be more sad for all the lives that were lost and destroyed in the wake of these parents' negligence.
Definitely. I’m quite flabbergasted at how so many ppl are defending this counselor and the school, just wanting to zero in on the parents and only the panthers, when the counselor and school messed up quite a bit, too! So much of this could have been caught if handled correctly and this all could have been prevented. Failure on so many damn levels!!
The school should be held accountable also.
She is literally leading the witness. Telling him what he thought, felt, did and telling him to say ‘correct’. Why didn’t the prosecution object to this. This is awful to watch.
Not sure about criminal procedure in Michigan, but typically, an attorney can freely lead the other party's witness on cross-examination. The only significant limitation is that the questions on cross cannot exceed the scope of the direct exam.
I agree.i hate that attorney.
Because on cross, almost every question should be leading. They are trying to test the credibility of the witness.
Ok so three teachers sent out red flags? At that point I would have said, “What could be the worst case scenario? I need to act seriously. I need to get this child some immediate help. I would have definitely sent him home. “
CPS is a good start..the law would commit this little sociopathic schizophrenic
They TRIED ! The parents were too busy to take their own mentally disturbed son home to get him help ! Those parents NEVER told the counselors at school " WE BOUGHT Ethan A Gun ! " Ask that question 1st then why they didn't take him home ?
@@ag4allgood where we live there is a zero tolerance rule in our school. Kids aren’t even allowed to draw a gun on paper or talk about them on school grounds. If they do they are sent home. Period…if they access anything outside the school approved web sites on school property. They are sent home. If the parents can’t be contacted they sit in the office. They are not sent back to class. Maybe your school district has less strict rules.
@@piethecatfunnies2137 You would be surprised to learn then that most school districts are this lackadaisical and that is why many school shootings haven't been prevented. My school allowed ammunition in bags during hunting season so kids could go after school. Parents could pick up kids with the guns in the car on school grounds. It wasn't uncommon for kids to talk about their guns, the kinds of guns they liked, which ones they didn't like, when they went hunting, when they went to the range, their kill counts, no matter how many times teachers told them, not at school. If it's part of the culture, which it sounds like it was at his school ("you know how some hobbies are legal but they're not appropriate for school like if a teacher brewed beer at home"), those red flags are going to be less obvious.
@@jnewcomb Where are you living J ? I am for 2A rights but when it comes to having them at schools its NO WAY !
Anyone else annoyed as hell by the defense attorneys voice?
2 things- school counselor was worried that his parents would leave him alone because they TOLD HIM they would be going back to work.
School counselor didn't know that above PARENTS bought him a gun that he could use to shoot up the school. He also was not aware that a Journal existed....BOTH PARENTS were aware of the gun and the journal and didn't take their little criminal home
I believe they've shown the counselor _did_ know the kid had a gun that the parents brought him to a shooting range with the weekend before.
@@Barredeux the counselor was asked on the stand if he ever knew of a gun purchased for the kid and he said NO many, many times. He was aware that the kids mom took him to a shooting range to shoot as a hobby but that's a BIG difference from knowing the parents bought him a gun and let him have access to it. The Point here is that the Parents had the MOST knowledge of their son so they had a duty to protect him and the public from him.
@@danamason2663 the day before Ethan told the counselor he and his mom went to the gun range to shoot guns as his excuse for why he was looking up ammunition in school. The counselor knew Ethan had some kind of access to guns, he just didn’t know what kind of access or if guns were in the home, how they were stored, etc bc he never bothered to ask like he should have! Doesn’t matter if he didn’t know a gun was recently bought or not. He knew Ethan had some kind of access to guns bc Ethan told him so the day before and he never bothered to ask all the important questions he was supposed to ask as a result, even if out of fear for Ethan’s safety and concern he was going to harm himself! It’s also yet another reason why Ethan’s bag should have been checked before sending him back to class, which he never did! It’s infuriating!
Why are the microphones on at the attorney tables? The audio is covered with cracking paper, clicking etc… are they trying to pick up the parents talked to the attorney?
When this couple go to jail, it may not necessarily be because there is overwhelming evidence of their guilt as much as their defense counsel are alarmingly rude, condescending and intimidating towards witnesses. I imagine the both of them have a special gift for turning off future jurors.
I agred.I believe they think their ridiculous actions show they are fighting for their clients.Complete opposite. They are burying them and I love it.let them all rot.
🙄Is the plexiglass really necessary at this point ?
Yes.
Lmao
So frustrating that this is being put on the school when it's so obviously the parents' fault. School staff are already underpaid and overworked but some people want them to be responsible for even more when they have absolutely ZERO power over parents.
That guidance most certainly did fail at his job. He assessed him for suicidality and never called mobile crisis or send him to an ER for further evaluation. He's a complete failure of a guidance counselor
@@heidipiette4537 disagree, with your opinion and that a guidance counselor should even have that responsibility.
The momma loved her horses .. not her son
I thought he was only 15 years old so why do they keep talking about he was on track to graduate ?!
It's another way of saying he wasn't failing classes and had been meeting class credit goals up till that point
@@maxelliot6276 Oh that’s so weird I’ve never heard of ‘passing’ referred to as ‘graduating’ I thought maybe I missed some thing and he was graduating at 15 years old because he was such a prodigy lol 🙄
Terrible parents !!! Especially his mother
Jennifer Crumbley's attorney is incredibly irritating. She's not asking questions, she's stating a "fact" that benefits her client, and then asking the witness to confirm it. The interactions between her and witnesses are tense and combative as a direct result of her attack-style "questioning." What a garbage attorney. KERREKT?? Shut up, sit down, if Crumbley had a case, you've already lost it for her.
Yessssssss! 🏆🥇
That's what sucks about getting a defense attorney. You reallly have no way of knowing what you're getting until you get to court. And without a bond you have to trust someone else's judgement on who they pick for you. Youu can spend a ton of money and still get a crap atty.
This by far my favorite comment in the chat! You are SO right!👍🏾👍🏾
It's really amazing what they let some people get away with!
why must the defense shout when asking questions? so unnecessary and irritating to any juror!
Bound over for trial, without even leaving the bench. And THEN ask for bond,why not?
Another chance to get some $$$ and run to Mexico. Funny, they are spending $$$ and getting a crappy defense for themselves....makes up for the fact they have given their son none.
They should have mandated that they take him home or they should have searched his backpack
Prosecution was brilliant. Defence had no idea what the prosecution was getting at and they actually confirmed a lot of what the prosecution was saying was correct maybe the defence should listen a bit more instead of being so angry, hostile and hot headed
This audio is so tinny sounding; sound engineers need some help.
These defense attorneys could not be more obnoxious and overly dramatic if they tried.
The parents need to be held accountable. How could you buy him a Gun !! the Key, is the Parent buy the Gun ! How about a AK-47
Why aren’t they zoomed in on the attorney for the people and the counselor
Soooooooo, the one defense attorney is the question asker and the other defense attorney is the objector and screamer.
This boy needed help and both parents and school failed him. He should have either left with the parent to return after seeing a psychologist. If this was not available a mandatory 72 hour psych admission should have been required. That might have saved the lives of 4 young people. The school and parents are at fault.
Yes. Both the school and parents failed to do what was necessary. I can’t believe how many ppl are defending the school!!
It sounds like this guy is good at his job. Just didn’t use his authority when given the chance. He got to the bottom of it but didn’t have the guts to take care of it.
And because of it, lives were lost.
I disagree. He is not able to discipline. The fault for the lost lives is entirely Ethan’s. The parents are accessories to murder via their negligence.
@@Ad-Lo Discipline who? This was not a matter of discipline but making sure Ethan received needed mental care. This counselor sounded like he was doing everything he should have up until the negligence of not checking inside his backpack and not following through as a mandated reporter by filing a 3200 report and contacting CPS after the Crumbley’s failed by neglecting to take immediate action. If he had done what he is obligated to do as a mandated reporter Ethan would have gotten immediate care and not allowed to stay in school to commit the heinous crimes he committed. But I do agree with the rest of what you said it is ultimately the parent’s responsibility.
@@tammyslaughter9587 I keep thinking the councilor must have had some kind of an obligation to contact the CPS and try to get them in there immediately. Unless I missed it, I didn’t hear any testimony about a discussion pertaining to hearing voices. Maybe the prosecutor didn’t want to bring it up this early in the proceedings.
@@courtneycampden-main7133 Right he did have an obligation. As a first responder I’m a mandated reporter and it’s very serious if not utilized properly.
I believe the prosecutor mentioned Ethan hearing voices somewhere in the hearings just not in this particular part. Such a waste of so many lives, so sad! 😞
So Disturbing and very sad!! 😥😭
How is Child Find not being brought up? The IDEA requires all schools that received federal funding to evaluate pupils if any staff suspect them of having a disability. This obligation could have solved everything. My questions are= How was his grades? How many referrals has he had? When did they first suspect mental health issues with Ethan?
They stated he never had any issues prior and was on track to graduate.
Counselor answered those. His grades were fine. He'd never been referred before that last day. I can't remember exactly what he said now but a teacher had mentioned earlier in the year, Ethan had seemed sad. Specific issues that raised concerns though were literally the day before and the day of the shooting. 24 hours. 1 out 400 students. Mom and Dad don't have those excuses, they had been aware of his mental health decline for at least a year, he's their only child. They bought him the weapon that killed four people. A man who spent 3 cumulative hours with Ethan shouldn't be held responsible for not knowing things he hadn't been told.
WHy is the defense for James Crumbley not muting her milk we can hear her crumpling and shuffling thru papers which is very distracting - or is that the point?
Wow, that was intense. It's so sad this is real life.
This entire situation should have been elevated to school administrators and SRO.
There should only be 3 microphones on 1 the lawyer speaking 2 the judge and 3 the witness
Wouldn't the school district have psychologists who could immediately see Ethan and perform psychological testing? They must because they're always using school psychologists to test students who need IEP plans and other learning accommodations.
My sister is a special Ed teacher in a neighboring district with far more resources than Oxford. She said they don't even have a school nurse anymore, let alone a psychiatrist, just a traveling nurse that's there occasionally. Psych evals for IEPs are once a year or so, and are contracted out.
@@roscothestowaway Ah, I see. As someone who has worked in government, I know that government contracts are very specific and limit the scope of what the contract provides. They always reminded us that we cannot ask a contractor to do anything not in the contract because it could cause the agency liability. Apparently any time you add to a contract, it is a new contract and has to go out for bids again. That makes complete sense now why they couldn't just call a contract psychologist for this case.
Most schools do not have a school psychologists.
For testing for my son in Oregon in 2007-2008, I had to find & pay for the person to do these tests. And it took months to get set up. 🤷🏼♀️ Just sayin’!
@@pamengland7863 That's awful that the school district made you pay! At least in the workplace, the employer is required to pay for the accommodation but I guess that doesn't necessarily mean any of the pre accommodation testing to get the documentation you need?
I know a school district psychologist is San Luis Obispo. Apparently in CA they actually have multiple, full time psychologists in most districts. With how expensive CA is, I guess they have the property tax revenue to do that. It's also probably easier and cheaper bc they have so many more students than most any other place? Plus I'm sure CA community psychologists are booked for months and months because they serve so many people. So they probably need people who don't have a private practice and do nothing but see the school district's kids.
Those defense attorneys are terrible. They sound like this is their first case. They don't know anything about guns or gun laws. They don't understand mental health issues and how the parents abdicated their responsibility of monitoring and raising their son. The only defense the parents can actually muster is they are stupid.
That school guidance needs to resign. Useless. He failed all the students especially Ethan
The defense's entire position seems to be that hindsight is 20/20. The gun was in the backpack so the backpack should have been searched. Yes, it would have been a good idea probably to search the backpack but the reality is that without knowing what was going to happen I doubt that school officials are able to just arbitrarily search student's belongings without some kind of indication that there's something illegal in there. There was no indication that he had any kind of weapon there as far as I can tell, so while it's incredibly tragic that the gun was literally right there and they didn't find it, that's just not how things work. And while I agree that the school holds some responsibility, clearly the parents let this kid down in so many ways and enabled this situation and are ultimately responsible. After all, they are his guardians, not the school.
I'm in a different state but I imagine it is the same in most places. Our school district handbook gives the school rights to search the student and all their belongings including any digital devices sent to school. Essentially, the student has zero rights to privacy once on grounds.
@@karenroselli-scott2243 That is sadly true. Lockers, backpacks, cars, even clothing can be searched at any time for any reason without consent or parental authorization, even if they're 18. A little police state in every school. 🇺🇸
But the defense is still stupid if they think they can blame the school for what happened. I'm sorry, who bought Ethan the gun again? Oh, right right right.
Are counselors permitted to disclose private mental health information to teachers e.g. that a student may be suicidal? 1hr
I’m confused, did they prove that the gun in the box had a lock on it or didn’t have a lock on it? Wouldn’t that determine rather or not involuntary man slaughter would be applicable?
They heard the gun shop witness say she sold them a lock with the gun. That's all I've seen so far about that.
The prosecutor is ripping defense lawyers apart in my opinion!
I respectfully disagree, they left room for appeals and a lot of gaps were left to accessibility to the gun, and the judge sustained the defense objections a lot on key points about neglect, accessibility, and knowledge know how. I believe if they have firm proof that the gun was not locked away and hidden then they would win the case on involuntary manslaughter, but I’m not seeing that on the evidence thus far. This is a high profile case and I’m interested to see this all the way through and understand everyone will have multiple opinions that I’m open to.
@@stephenlucas1286 oh I already know there will be appeals, most times there is but she is doing well I think! Again, that my view on it
Counselor " I acted on the information I had " ...the problem is he had more information than ANYONE else in that building and didn't take the approbate actions. That was a brutal take down of a guy who's job it is not to drop the ball. Does he hold any blame for what happened ? yes. / 3 teachers tell him theres a " gun" problem with this kid and this educated counselor doesn't even bother to 1- watch the video 2- read the kids journal 3- ck his backpack or locker 4- say the kid has to leave school
5- DID HE EVEN ASK THE PARENTS IF THEY HAD A GUN AT HOME ? NO!....tell me again about the training this guys has to weed out one of THE MOST serious things that can happen in a school.
just insane that guy is still employed.
Agree!!! 💯,, this is exactly my thoughts as well, the school counselor holds blame, so many red flags. I'm sure after today's testimony, this will haunt him, and shame on his attorney who was with him in the court room. A reporter asked if he thought the counselor should apologize to the parents... he said " No!, the counselor didn't do any harm, he doesn't owe them apology" what the hell?,, so many opportunities that day to save lives.
Yes to all of this.
I am surprised that the counsel wanted to know if Ethan was "okay". What does " okay" even mean? He never watched the video Ethan had on his phone. The school had his backpack and than gave it back to him!!! I raised a teenager on my own, he was so hard to reach and it was such a difficult time. Can't imagine having a teenager during Covid.
Exactly! The counselor said the kid had suicide ideation and shouldn't be alone then let him walk out alone. He should have called police to transport him for an emergency evaluation at an emergency facility since the parents refused. This is ridiculous, all these adults dropping the ball. Even if Ethan had only walked out and killed himself, these people (the counselor included) are still negligent.
invest in some decent sound equipment - someone's brother get the job? 🤣😂
Audio soooo bad x
Loved that recross to the cross!
Maybe his parents should’ve checked his bag they knew they bought their son a gun , they saw the drawling , as parents why didn’t they make sure..?... love how she blames the councilor
The defense lawyer seems very scattered…. Regardless of her tactics, she’s very hard to follow.
I’m confused why the school couldn’t expel him or at least suspend him for drawing threatening images .
School send girl home for tank tops my school would suspend you for 10 days over a cellphone
If my kid is being suspicious of suicidal activity I would take him home without a second thought. Let work know you can’t go back. If they don’t care, they don’t care. You can replace a job. You can’t replace a child. Jennifer you had no legit excuse.
The blonde defense counselor rustling her papers is making my skin crawl.
Jennifer and Ethan Crumbly have 2 crumbs for lawyers. Jeez they're bad.
They got these lawyers at the unemployment line , job search 🔍 and she is lost!
What about the parents for the 4 kids arrested at a warren high school the other day? Why is the treatment different from county to county? You should do a story on the kangaroo court.
It's so blatantly obvious the Defense attorneys have n-o-t-h-i-n-g, so their strategy is to have the witness reiterate everything he just testified to under questioning by the Prosecuting attorney? Is this their strategy to avoid an inditement or their strategy to appeal it based on ineffectual representation? I'm thinking it's the latter!
This court room has the worst sound.
I really despise Jennifer crumbley's attorney.Her smug arrogant approach to her questioning is unbearable to hear at times.The way she snaps saying..CORRECT after every statement is beyond irritating. She is doing a good job of ruining her vile clients credibility tho.Which I like.
If you want to play a fatal game, take a shot every time she says "um" cause she didn't think about her questions before cross examining the witness. I only play it with the prosecutor and I've been sober the whole pre-trial.
Am I the only one who thinks the school is just as responsible. This guy on the stand need to be charged just the same. Sad all around.
Uh no ! He should’ve reported this to CPS and his boss but the parents withheld information and ultimately so did Ethan ! So much else was going on that we do not know and they all made it seem like everything was all good!
Exactly!!
But where are the metal detectors . . . The in school police officer. I live in rural Michigan and while my children went different school districts. I remember these things as far back as my oldest daughter who graduated in 2009. And we didn't live in wealthy school districts.
@@amyramsdell2910 interesting. We don’t have metal detectors around here except in the bigger cities.
I feel like he made a mistake at the end of the meeting, but the parents are way more at fault. He didn’t know all the background and information they did. They had a mountain of info on how badly their son needed help, that he owned a gun, that he had been hearing voices, that he had asked for help, and on and on. They ignored all that and did not tell the counselor any of it. He started out doing everything right, but was probably so flustered that the parents didn’t give a crap and were annoyed about the meeting, that he was kind of stunned/angry/disgusted and dropped the ball at that point. He planned on following up with the situation but yes it was a mistake to not put a halt to it all right then and there. He didn’t want Ethan to be alone but he should’ve taken a more forceful stance on what happened the rest of the day. But him screwing up with only a small bit of the background info is a (yes grave) mistake IMO, while what the parents did was not a ‘mistake’. What they did was way beyond a mistake.
Mrs. Crumley‘s attorney Seems to be blaming the counselor from the school for this young man’s problems Sounds like this young man might not have been given my attention The counselor said that when he called them to come to the school. And when they got there. And didn’t touch or Acknowledge their son says a lot to me. He needed, was crying out for help and some attention. And he didn’t get it.
So he got it the only way he could by killing people. SAD! These "parents" are monsters.
Is it normal for the defense to be so distracted (and distractING) sorting papers and smacking stacks, etc?
I have no idea why he is being sues, I think that he will be fired along with a bunch of the staff
Mom and dad had no idea the kid would do this. They made some bad decision’s , this whole situation is sad. The DA needs a Zanax.
Hype was like ok pop o
Testimony reveals that their horses received excellent and expensive veterinary care! A hallucinating child needs more than people to talk to and a journal. Very lame school counselor. He should have been escorted to the hospital. Call parents from there.
Blaming a counselor-idk. He certainly didn’t buy him a gun. And if it’s not school protocol to take another measure and look in their book bag…idk. It really depends on school/district policy about his next steps.
Get them pros
This counselor definitely should have seen the signs, failed Ethan. Parents definitely failed him. My father was a functional alcoholic except when home from contracts for few mos every 3-4 mos. My Mom worked long hours but was firm, fair & loving. Out of 3 girls (1yr apart ea) & older brother, my brother drank till his 40s & the middle sister started drinking alot in her 30s. I & older sis never drank much & no drugs & we all have good jobs, mainly due to Mom being honest & listening to us, involved in our lives, making us take responsibility for good or bad actions, we knew she loved & cared for us. Us girls also had a close relationship with our high school counselor because Mom came and talked to him beginning of my older sisters high school year.
A utter failure of a coundelor. His incompetence contributed to the deaths and injuries of students.
One counselor for 400 students? No time for huge problems!
@@lorinelson5383 Hey, you counselor managing 400 kids? If a counselor can't pick out this messed up kid out of 1000 or 2000, well, let me work as counselor or anyone off the street.
Bad Plan. Obviously he would be alone after school but I guess that’s not his shift so?
The parents are what they are, but I can’t help feeling like this councilor didn’t do his job. WTH…….
You can always find thousands of questions that were not asked or actions not taken in any assessment; mostly made up by defense attorneys who want to throw the blame elsewhere. Like “did you check Ethan’s bag” or “did you ask Ethan if he had a journal in his bag.” Like WHAT? Ethan denied being a danger to himself or others; he claimed he was just looking at a video game. I’d say the counselor went above and beyond by calling the parents and asking them to get him help.
@@fairlind I’d wonder if the counselor had an obligation to contact Child protective services and this is what someone wrote.
Highlighted reply
Tammy Slaughter
Tammy Slaughter
1 day ago
@Courtney Campden-Main Right he did have an obligation. As a first responder I’m a mandated reporter and it’s very serious if not utilized properly.
I believe the prosecutor mentioned Ethan hearing voices somewhere in the hearings just not in this particular part. Such a waste of so many lives, so sad! 😞
I don’t know if that’s the law in Michigan or not.
@@courtneycampden-main7133 A call to protective services would have been mandated if there had been actual evidence that Ethan was a danger to himself or others. In this case it was a judgement call. As far as I know his parents didn’t refuse to get him help; they only said they couldn’t do it that day. If he had known how close Ethan was to dangerous behavior, I’ll bet he would have acted more speedily.
@@fairlind We will have to wait for more detailed testimony. Maybe the counselor did make calls for more assistance and couldn’t get it. Perhaps it wasn’t talked about yet because it was just the preliminary hearing.
@@courtneycampden-main7133 That’s a good point.