Canticle and Threnody | Sunlit Man Lore Part 2 | Shardcast
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
- So much happened in The Sunlit Man, that... well, we needed a second lore episodes discussing all of it. And here it is! In this one, we talk about the what's going on with Aux, how you get from Threnody to Canticle, and how some of Canticle's crazy invested geography really works. Also, we start out with a round of shots, so you know it's all going to go downhill from there. This episode, we have Eric (Chaos), David (Windrunner), Evgeni (Argent), Grace (thegatorgirl), and Ala (Rasarr).
Thumbnail image is the art of Canticle in the The Sunlit Man, by Ernanda Souza.
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Развлечения
He was safe on the mountain top because he was not *between* the sun an the planet. He was exposed to high angle light tangential to the surface.
This was my read as well
I also thought it was also due to the lower amount of atmospheric resistance as well.
Not sure if a space ships flying between the sun and the planet would just get fried.
2:08:53 Regarding the whole discussion about Aux calling himself a knight and taking oaths... I think what we see happening between Maya and Adolin in RoW is the beginning of something new between spren and humans. It seemed heavily implied that Adolin and Maya were bonding and Connecting during the trial. I strongly suspect Maya will be the first spren to swear oaths to Adolin thereby making her the first spren Radiant of some kind. Which would likely have benefits and effects we've not yet seen up to that point.
Fast forward to the far far far future, and it makes total sense that such a 2-way bond would be more understood and common between radiants and spren. I would gamble that's why Aux referred to himself as a knight and spoke of his oaths.
This makes sense with Brandon's tendency to hide foreshadowing in plain sight, in this case using a running joke to re-contextualise a relationship for people who've read future cosmere books.
Or maybe he's the cognitive shadow of a highly invested ex-bridge 4 member who became a radiant spren like the Stormfather.
Nah, probably not.
I love how many times that one of the cast said something absolutely bonkers, for the rest of the cast to take a big deep breath and *strongly consider the implications*
this group is my favorite of the cast (plus Feather!) for their absolute galaxy brain takes
In your huge conversation about Aux sacrificing himself towards the end of the episode, pretty sure that is already answered, although I may be wrong. One of the effects of holding the Dawnshard is that Sigzil can use any form of investiture regardless of Connection. Aux is a being of pure Investiture and if he allows himself to be used then Sigzil can use him up like normal, unalive Investiture. I would doubt Syl could just let herself die for Kaladin, but for Sigzil having this unique property imparted by the Dawnshard, it kind of makes sense.
I guess the question is, why does this result in Sigzil getting gravitation as opposed to just increasing his investiture reserve.
Aux saying he swore Oaths, too, implies to me that Spren also swear Oaths. We just dont see that. And i think it works with what we know about Maya saying we chose aswell, rather than just them agreeing to end the bond. Maybe we dont see that because they are much more simpler Oaths about helping the Knight Radiant through their Journey or something along those lines.
I think they maybe swear oaths the moment they go to the phisical world. Syl said a couple times she went through a phase at that moment
The continuity chain caused the atium retcon
I would really appreciate it if some would explain this for me. First, I don't recall any atium retcon. What was that? (I've read everything csmmere related and I know what retcon means). Second, what is the continuity chain? I don't remember it specifically, though I do somewhat remember the scene in Shadesmar where I'm guessing it was mentioned. Finally, what is the logical connection here? Why would one necessitate the other? Thank you!
PS. Isn't the name Shadesmar interesting? Does it have something to do with shades? The etymology of this would suggest something along the lines of "sea of shadows". But mar also currently means "to disfigure". And we all know what shades are... Just a few thoughts.
@@chrissekely Basically, the metal called "atium" in Era 1 is actually an alloy of pure atium and electrum. The moment that Elend burns duralumin and "atium" in HoA shows what pure atium actually does when burned, an expansive vision of the future rather than the atium shadows. This is actually something that's been more or less canon to Brandon for many years but we only have had it confirmed recently.
Brandon doesn't think that godmetals should require you to be an allomancer to burn them. Therefore the atium mistings thing doesn't make sense. They are actually electrum mistings.
The continuity chain is what the chain that the Admiral wears has is called. It is also potentially the chain that is seen in OB for sale in Shadesmar and the silver chain that Raboniel gives to Navani. It's not actually related to the atium retcon, I was just making a joke there.
@@aaks_40 That makes a lot more sense now. Thank you.
I personally assumed the brigade got new members and then became shades when they die. That would explain the uniforms and would result in elite undead shock troops who know how to run a space ship.
When I read the Night Brigade epilogue, I immediately got strong "Black Company" vibes. The Admiral definitely reminds me of a character from that series, too. Has anyone asked Sanderson if this is a deliberate homage?
After someone asked him about his threnody idea and he mentioned the "Dusk Brigade" (which was transcribed by 17s as "Dust Brigade," which is what fans have called it for years), Brandon explicitly said it was an homage to the Black Company. That and what was stated in this episode about the failed expedition on Threnody was literally all we knew until now.
It's good to know I wasn't imagining things.
Necromancy being about calling upon ghosts and the like is much closer to the classic definition (pre-20th century). Necromancy was originally a form of Divination involving talking with the dead, often in the form of spirits. Hence the -mancy suffix (oft-misused in the classical sense).
The Chorus can fabricate tools and ships. Maybe the shades of the Night Brigade can too, and generally retain the skills to create and do various things.
That could be how the Night Brigade got ships ahead of the rest of Threnody etc.
@1:25:45 kind of interesting to add Mercy into the mix of Odium and Ambition as well, though at a certain point Ambition stops feeling important haha
You telling me a shade fried this floating modular city/arena/speeder bike?
You expect me to believe that the Cosmere's own loathsome and detestable Cognitive Shadows fried this bike?
Something to keep in my mind is that technology can advance extremely quickly once you have a power source that can be manipulated to do work. We sometimes think of progress as being quite slow because if you look at all of human history, it took thousands of years to get from the first cities to today. That's because for most of that time, we had no good source of power better than human and animal muscles. The moment power became available (beginning with widespread knowledge of gunpowder) technology advanced rapidly. Just look at the world we lived in at 1869. Yes steam power existed by then but we still sailed the seas primarily by sail. We had only had the telegraph for 30 years and it wasn't all that widespread so the fastest communications most of the world had was the speed of a horse or sailing ship. Just 100 years later we put a man on the moon and had nuclear weapons and energy. And the sources of power we had were nowhere near the power and efficiency of investiture. I could see a civilization going from a Stormlight or era 1 Mistborn level of tech to space flight and even FTL in a very short period of time once they find a way to harness and use investiture. Possibly all within a single human lifespan
Dusk Brigade travels through the Cosmere like the Event Horizon.
"... a round of shots ..." And, since I don't drink, my immediate thought was, "Why would they be getting vaccinated?"
The reason the Night Brigade found Nomad so fast was because plot pacing required it to.
Theres absolutely not enough unique Heavily invested worlds for him to become a god king every single day for 100+ years thats just a bonkers thing. It must have just been luck really.
There just happened to be a Night Brigade ship already in the area
@GoErikTheRed Yeah it has to be something like that, just bad luck on Nomads part. It cannot be regular, and mostly happens on this case because of the need for the high intensity of the plot.
Which is fine, it's just I don't think we should take this one time as indicative of how quickly Nomad has to world hop usually
It also could be some time dilation shenanigans from all the investiture.
@@deathfuzz Oh that would be wild. If a few days on Canticle is weeks or months everywhere else, that could really mess with our assumptions of how long Threnodites have lived there
18:58 Camticle is a prison OR an incubator. The fact that it has a perpetual energy transfer that happens on/at a patterned, consistent rate was my first clue.
The second is that it was intended that Threnodites are the perfect species for the planet - if you get to the surface you have a police force of mindless invested hulks, and everyday it’s surface is purged of invaders makes it so that the thigs on the outside don’t get in and the thing at the core can keep consistently absorbing radical types of investiture and STORING them
Remember : investiture = energy = matter. The increased gravity of canticle is directly proportional to the amount of time it’s been absorbing investure/energy and the the amount. As long as there’s a star, there’s a input for investiture TRANSFORMATION (since you can convert one to another)
That’s my 2 cents
Referring to the conversation about where the investiture goes after it absorbs it from the star: I assumed the planet absorbed it and then expelled it in the form of the RAPID growth of the plant life on the other side of the planet. I would imagine it would take just as much investiture to cause the planet life to grow that quickly.
12:00 Sucking Investiture from the night side is inefficient. If you are ready to assume that the effect is intentional, the most efficient collector would be a thin disk at the terminator.
14:00 That strongly suggests that the core is using the Investiture for something.
18:00 Or the effect on the surface is just a side effect.
24:30 They may go to the correct containers on Threnody, too. The technology just had not been invented at the time of Silence Montane.
32:00 Hence raising the horrible question why they have ceased using their original power source.
39:30 This is based on the assumption that Sunlit Man is fairly early in history. Why can't they be using Threnody technology of an advanced stage?
1:31:00 The reliquaries seem very much a continuation of the technology the Night Brigade uses to command shades.
1:36:30 Is that any different from Sel's national magic systems? The same rules should apply.
1:51:30 Mistings of Cadmium and Bendalloy require that.
2:00:30 No. That Nomad can credibly claim that he has a Blade but is not Radiant means that the deadeyes are still deadeyes.
I’ve wondered about the story Nomad told about the Alethi who reached the sun and returned with light eyes.
I’m rather under the impression that the story is more immediately relevant to Canticle and the Magic system there. Maybe there was once an operational perpendicularity. The Alethi showed up and something whacky happened and then they returned changed. Idk, seems like it might be a story worth exploring.
On spren having oaths: I think the answer is along the same lines of what you all said, but even simpler. This is Honor's magic system, so in terms of how the Surges work, bonds and oaths are fundamentally the same thing. I don't have time to look up all the references my brain is grabbing onto, but these include the fact that Bondsmiths are the closest order to Honor, and I'm pretty sure there's a WoB where Brandon says the intent of Honor would in the Cosmere also correlate to things like gravity and molecular bonds. It's like Honor as a personal virtue and Connection as a scientific principle are two sides of the same coin. So I don't think we even need to assume Aux verbally swore oaths - oaths are fundamentally what the Nahel bond is made of, and so when a knight and spren (a piece of Honor!) both agree to a bond, they have both sworn an oath in the most abstract sense.
Edit: By the above, I don't mean that when Aux says "oaths," he is just referring to raw Connection - I do think the virtuous nature of the oaths is important. The nature of the bond is flavored by the type of spren he is, the nature of the oaths Sigzil swore, and the character development they have both been through - the exact dynamic is important, just as it would be for two people in any relationship.
Grace is my favorite analyst
Love the drink break! Very funny stuff
Ambition leaving behind a shades makes sense from the meta perspective of "not being able to move on after death" however i don't think these people are trapped, they probably just leave behind this unused chunk of ambition, and this chunk just wants to be alive. Im guessing a Continuity chain is a special metal mind for controlling shades.
cant wait to listen to this tommarow
The original Zellion is Bao Ado Mishram
Could him destroying Aux essentially be like a mistborn burning a metal? You burn a metal and you get that ability, you ‘burn’ a spren and you get its ability?
That’s what I was thinking Aux is pretty much a godmetal so I assume it’s like burning lerasium
I'd argue that the thing with Aux providing gravitation is possible because Aux is gravitation. He's made of it. In that moment, he was converting the passive investiture that he was made of into active investiture, which naturally took the form of one of the surges that Aux is comprised of.
28:14 in the interest of disambiguation i propose "Zhellion the First" or "Zhellion the Lodestar" for the OG and maybe "Zhellion the Nomad" or "Zhellion the Sunlit" for our boy Sig :3
Oh boy that is a promising start to an episode lol. I truly hope it doesn't get any more unhinged hehe
We see in Bands of Mourning that Nazh has a shade gun - maybe the Night Bridgade has a giant one on a ship like a shade Death Star. Either way i think those shade guns are going to be apart of their arsenal!
They could be northerners using connection to overwrite their primary language and so they need to use malwish in order to speak without using the canticle language like how nomad uses alethi
Yeah I can see that being the case
I personally think the chorus was able to form due to the magic of the system, it seems like magic on canticle is very connection based so maybe that effected how shades work on the planet.
this is a good start to an episode.
youtube gave me an ad during argent's pause "and my name is..." - very suspenseful
Ad-gent
So, just throwing this out there, but since it sounds like y'all are mostly drinkers: I did a fun 7 brewery crawl with a buddy in SLC 2 days before the convention and it was a blast. I'd totally do it again next year. Basically spent the whole time nerding out with my buddy on cosmere lore and having 5% beers. Might be a fun pre-event meetup if you're into that sort of thing...
I've been waiting 🙏
For a girl like you to come into my life
I don't think the "living" members of the Night Brigade need to be alive. They could be immortal Cognitive Shadows who exist due to certain rituals.
I don't think Sigzil actually abandoned his oaths, or at least not both sets of them. I think that's just a case of an unreliable narrator full of self-loathing.
As for not having his windrunner blade but still sort of keeping the plate, I suppose that supports the "his honorspren went the way of Phendorana" theory to an extent, and him deciding to live up to his old ideals returned the plate maybe? I don't think we know what happens to shardplate spren when the radiant spren dies
You guys rock. Enjoy DSX!
Night made. Been waiting for this one! Holy shit 2 hours 50 hahaha.
2:00:20
I think Aux can still change shape because he didn´t die from a broken oath
Instead he was "expended"
So the mechanics are different
Great videos coming to us almost as fast as Canticle turns!
Okay, I'm not that far in yet, so maybe this will be mentioned later, but is the system ever called a "circuit" in the book? I know it's compared to an incandescent bulb, but that's not the same as calling it a circuit. I thought the point of the light bulb example was the tungsten resistor that creates heat and light.
1:34:05 There is a WoB about that. Sort of. The other way around, but the logic should be the same:
JoyBlu
In order to have a Breath, do you have to be native to Nalthis?
Brandon Sanderson
Not to be given Breaths, but people who are not native to Nalthis are not born with that Investiture.
JoyBlu
So, you have to be born on that planet?
Brandon Sanderson
There are exceptions. Most of the time.
JoyBlu
If both your parents were Nalthians, and they moved off planet, and they had a child that was born on a different planet-
Brandon Sanderson
It is possible for that child to have a Breath, but it would not continue too long. But yes, that child would probably have a Breath, depending...
Joyblu
If both of his parents had Breaths.
Brandon Sanderson
Mmmhmm.
SA5 Recreates the oath pact to give spren oaths so they have more of a say in the bond!? maybe is what's happening with AUX?
Yet another discussion of the Night Brigade, one even that focuses heavily on what weapons they employ, that fails to mention at all the fact that they employ Hemalurgy.
RUBBER DUCKY YOURE THE ONE!!! YOU MAKE SHARDCAST SO MUCH FUUUUUN!!! RUBBER DUCKY IM AWFLY FOND OF YOU!
So, maybe Aux's Blade remains because the Blade counts as being part of Sigzil's powers, and not as an innate ability of Aux the spren? So the Blade is dead because Aux is gone, but the Blade still exists because the Dawnshard has keep that aspect of Sigzil's abilities around?
Aux being fully dead but Sigzil still having his Blade at the end of the book is wild.
I don’t know, I feel like the spren saying oaths thingy might be a tease about something that’s to come in SLA5, by which a “pact” of some sort is formed by spren and the rosharans after the liberation of BAM in order to reconcile both parts.
I would be pissed if that were the case, but I’m leaning towards something like this.
Is it possible that there is a Shard at the core of Canticle and that that is the reason why the sunlight and the planet create some kind of weird field, as well as making the effects of sunlight on the planet to be so intense?
I know I'm well late to the party and this might be theorized already but I feel like yall are missing something to do with the Canticlites and sharing heat: heat is literally just energy. It might be more accurate to phrase the conversation around the Canticlites being better energy conduits than cosmere standard. This plays into the idea of the planet being a giant energy circuit and the Canticlites creating Sunhearts. Totally not sure how or why it happened but that could prove fruitful for future theorizing that I'm not at all qualified for
I also find it interesting the it seems Aux wanted to become a Windrunner or a radiant?
I wonder if through the dawnshard aux became partially an honor spren. Like due to his connection with sigzil he was able to take on honor spren oaths.
Isn''t Threnody considered one of the planets to have gotten technology early since they had gunpowder early? And if they supposedly predated Ambition's arrival to the system then maybe they are more invested than other people because they were made by Adonalsium and not a shard of Adonalsium? I don't see why it's hard to believe they could have developed the tech on their own. Also Nazh is from there? Why couldn't Nazh and Khriss have contributed to their tech? Or maybe some people didn't flee the evil and they developed in ways we haven't been told yet?
Also aren't the Ire active around Threnody? Could they have contributed to their tech?
I feel really silly struggling with this, but can someone help me understand this word Evgeni says at 1:50:27? It sounds like "Brandon doesn't... *poscau* case." I can't figure out what that third word is.
I believe he's saying PascalCase, programming jargon meaning when you use a capital instead of a space to combine two words, i.e. TimeTellers
Thanks so much,@@491mick491! I've never heard that term before but that's definitely what he said.
1:03:14 I think it's just a nod to the fact that most space militaries in science fiction seem to follow navy titles even though they are space ships and should probably use air force terminology. Or the fact that the US Marines have generals even though they are a branch of the Navy.
Ghosts (Shades) are traditionally spirits of regret. What is a regret? An unfulfilled Ambition.
Have you seen Brandon book club on Sunlit Man part 2. There is interesting question asking if the core of this plant is one of the most invested 'entity' that we've seen in Cosmere. RAFO was the answer but good question. Cosmere Death Star.
The planet it seems, does have rings. So I'm wondering what the rings are made of and how they affect the light?
Could it be that the rings are remnants of some shard and they change the nature of the sunlight before hitting the ground... I understand that core of the planet itself has a different might have something about it.
A circuit doesn't really require that the energy returns to the source. A circuit is a connection between high potential and low potential relative to each other. Think lightning strikes. That is how I think of this. A sustained lightning strike.
Warning: Do not read this comment unless you have actually completed the episode!
I think there is reason to suspect that the participants of this particular episode are in fact not entirely human. I would argue that no living being would naturally grow up in such a way that their natural speech patterns would include the the word ´like´ that often. It is statistically improbable that so many of them would have the inclination to form the word that often as well. Surely this is a case of bad coding, with a hint of copy-paste lazyness, going around?
I love you guys to death and listen to everything you do, but storms!
I counted 14 times within 60 seconds from a random point here: ruclips.net/video/qAVrqsgnYvA/видео.html
❤
Yeah we like it :)
If we accept General Relativity and if the planet is net gaining Investiture over time, then it 𝘮𝘶𝘴𝘵 be net increasing in gravitation over time too. We have already seen mass-energy-Investiture equivalence and GR says that concentrations of mass-energy cause curvature (gravitation).
2:30:37 Hoid should do a better job at getting his apprentice out of the mess _he_ (Hoid) is responsible for. I suspect it won't be quite as simple as turning himself in to the Night Brigade and offering himself up to that procedure Nomad mentioned, where they are somehow able to spike the ex-Dawnshard-ness out of him and use that to find its current bearer. (Goodness knows the NB don't seem the type to be trustworthy with the power of a Dawnshard)
Why is oxygen's body still there? I'm pretty sure this has to do with the nahel bond. The bond takes two beans and makes them one ish. The longer the bond is Active and the more ideals achieved the closer those two beings become to being one. I think when ox was being eaten by the dawn shard, It originally fed on both his mind and his body. Is maybe more mind than body. And at the end he chose to feed the rest of his mind rather than his body. This likely has to do with the fact that it doesn't work the other way around. You can't have A mind with nobody, Especially when that body is just pure investiture. Nomad He's now functioning as ox's mind. This is why he is still able to shape Shift. Essentially no mad Has two bodies now and only one mind.
@windrunner Dawn Hearts!
Ladies and Gentleman (Spoilers) our main man Eric was incredibly... right! 1:03:37
Ok, crack theory.
We know the planet's core draws heat. In this book there is a strong link between heat and investiture and transferring of it. There was a lot of debate in this video about how the circuit completes, what if the sun and the planet are passing heat back and forth on a very long cosmic scale. The planet draws heat from the sun for a long time and then it swaps and the sun draws heat from the planet. I honestly don't even think the inhabitants of the planet would notice the different, it could have happened many times while they were there.
That's not the crack part of the theory. The crack part is the parallel of swapping heat back and forth being what happens during sex on Canticle. So clearly this entire planetary phenominon stretching over thousands of years is just a really long and passionate coupling of the sun with the planet.
My initial interpretation of the civilized language comment was the same actually. That the Malwish win and become dominant as an English equivalent. But now that I think about it, we have seen some of the Malwish leadership be pretty snobby and have a superiority complex. Maybe a Québécois equivalent? If that make sense? Not that French Canadians think themselves superior but like how it’s a minority language but has a very very prevalent and distinct cultural identity despite not being dominant
The more I think about this, the more I like the idea actually. I can totally see the Malwish joining a single federation but always being on the verge of leaving and probably even forcing the gov officials to be bilingual
I just realized. This could still be what’s planned but I have the groups reversed. What’s the population distribution between the Malwish and the Basin?
this planet is for sure where ambition died after being wounded by odium??? right???
lets gooooo
1:23:45
Just random: betting the duel is a Kal v. Szeth (in a corrupted weird battle) in book 5. Feels right with shitloads of twists. By which I mean: they’re the official duel and everything around the duel is what matters. You know, bets bargains and deals
Either I’m a genius or screw this comment January 2025
I remember imagining Atium as green and Lerasium as blue in my first read
I wonder if Canticle could be a prototype for the aethers in Tress. Canticle was too volatile, so the next version divided the investiture and bound it within a physical vessel (spores)
Hottake: Aux is a windrunner had a honorspen, and this bond was broken by the dawnshard.
He literally says he's a high spren in the book
@@passdoutcouchpotatos did I say he wasn't
@@connerwallace4997The problem is that wouldn’t explain anything, we know Aux is bonded to Sigzil and Sigzil doesn’t have a honorspren anymore.
@@king_dot there is no telling what a spren bonding a spren would do. It explains his weird armor and the air pressure aura.
I love the content, I really do, but every time Evgeni speaks i start to loose a lot of interest, to the point ive never watched a full episode with him on it