Avoid This BIG Mistake in NL Hold'em Cash Games
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- Опубликовано: 11 июл 2024
- Avoid this big mistake in NL cash games. One of the best ways to increase your winrate in cash games is to avoid playing cautious at the end of the hand when you could have gotten more value through proper hand reading.
0:00 - Intro
1:06 - Preflop
3:30 - Flop
8:46 - Turn
10:29 - River
15:26 - Hero Decision
15:44 - Reveal
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Just to add here I think the absolute key to this hand and why I fins the river bet is because it's a three bet pot. I can get on board with a more frequent check back in a single raised pot especially when multiway and one of your opponents is in the closing blind.
Bart I dont know what's going on with you and these super straight forward call-ins you're posting.
Literally this is the 2nd video this week where its super glaringly obvious that opponent's range is mega capped after the sequence of events; He has exactly KJ, QJ, or J10. How you couldn't just deduce this and just state the facts to the caller and correct him instead of entertaining the idea that his logic has merit is frankly disturbing.
Let me break it down for you: First off, it doesn't matter what hero THINKS of Villians play because Villians actions are what's relevant. With that in mind:
1) Donk bet flop into the field; Many times,indicitive of Top pair, Medium Kicker, OR a big draw of some sort. Usually not nutted on a non pair/rainbow board. No conclusions can be drawn but suspicions can be made.
2) SMALL lead on turn - Represents protecting Top pair, Still thinks his hand is ahead since Hero didn't raise, and bet is small enough incase he gets raised, he can fold. Bet can also be a block bet for a draw still. Conclusion can be made that bet is too small to be anything nutted on a draw heavy board with a possible straight completed already. Definitely not overpair. Definitely not 2 pair+.
3) Check river: Villian has either missed his draw, or is worried his top pair medium kicker MIGHT not be good, and is now in check calling mode. There's no way he's checking a nutted hand here, besides all logical nutted hands completed on the turn since river is a brick.
My instant instinct is he has KJ or QJ. POSSIBLY AJ also. There is 0 reason to check river and im praying I get jammed on by betting river.
I'm not sure how you don't see this standard behavior by people in your games or other people's games.
@@charlesnewborn3760 I have only two problems with your logic. First, you're biased by knowing villain's hand, and even more biased by knowing that BB had nothing. If there's a reason to check, it has nothing to do with MP villain, and everything to do with BB.
Second, you are underestimating how often the BB shows up with a set or top two there, especially when you consider that SB didn't fold until the turn either, so either one of them calling the turn can be bad news. It's a 4-way 3-bet pot, with only the worst hand/draw gone before the river. The fact that SB saw the flop, basically doubles the chances of BB having flopped a set, because what you really care about is how often EITHER ONE of them flopped a set, not specifically the BB flopping it. The other half of the time that one flopped it, it was SB, and BB would have folded turn. It doesn't matter which one it matters that either one could have.
How much I worry about the BB check raising the river, depends upon a few things, only one of which we know. We know that BB has seen other folks (us and MP villain) bet on every street, so he could very easily be sandbagging middle or bottom set (or the one combo of top set, if he wouldn't 4-bet JJ in the blinds), feeling confident that more money is going into the pot without any need to shock hero and villain by donking out the river himself.
Another thing it depends upon is that I'd want to know BB's stack size before betting the river. If he only has $5 left, we don't let that affect our decision. But WE DO NOT KNOW his stack, because we only know effective stack size created by villain having just bought in for the $1000 max, and hero having him covered. If hero has $1800, then how much BB has, matters A LOT.
Almost all hand analysis channels do the same as Bart, only stating effective stack size vs the last and final villain on whatever street is the final street as the hand played out. That is not a good thing. Let's say hero has $1800. Maybe the effective stack size preflop, as viewed by hero, is $1800 due to one or more players who folded preflop, having him covered. But it could have been $6000 to other players, we don't know. Maybe on the flop it was $2300 due to the SB and BB each having at least that much. Ditto on the turn. On the river, maybe it was $1000 due to MP having BB covered, maybe it was $1800 due to BB having $5000, maybe it was $1500 due to BB having that much. We just don't know.
Betting $300 into a $8xx pot when effective stack size against a player who started with $1000 is very different than betting it into that guy plus a guy who might be trapping with 555 or 999 who is sitting there covering your $1800 by a large amount. He may have only called preflop to set mine against a much bigger stack than $1000, but figured he'd have to fold JJ if 5-bet or 6-bet.
Don't forget that your own hand is very capped, and that a guy with $2500 or $5000 may have his stack for a good reason, like being able to push someone off a nearly face up top pair hand on the river.
There are a ton of situations where I'd check this river. There are a ton of situations where I'd bet all sorts of different amounts for all sorts of different reasons. But we don't know the whole situation, so I can't say what I'd do. But I'd be aware that in some cases, the lost EV due to bet folding a winner, or bet calling a loser, can outweigh the gained EV of getting value from a second-best hand. If you think an opponent is capable of bluff check raising this river, it's 100% take the cheap showdown because of how capped your hand is.
@@charlesnewborn3760 "frankly disturbing" 😂😂 Calm down, Chat Pro
Honestly think the the single biggest difference between winning and losing players is if they are able to pull the trigger on non-nutted value bets on the river.
Completely agree. I went from break even to profitable player by trying to squeeze out value. Now I value bet a little too thin. Working towards finding the balance.
That is still a super low stake mind set. When you move up, a better mindset would be sniff out the spots where your value(bet/raise) does not get paid, summarize them systematically and mix in the bluff which takes the same line.
That's part of it, but I'd also include tilt management, avoiding huge blunders, and winning mindset as equally important. (Winning mindset not meaning just believing you will win but committing to making the right play instead of the fun or easy play).
Only liars announce when they're telling the truth.
This is level 1 winning player where you overfold to river bets because population is too polar.
Then level 2 is at where people start betting too thin, then you open yourself up to being check raised, which doesn't start happening enough until around 10/20.
Thanks for everything Bart especially your insight so helpful!
Pausing at 3:15 to say I love the "You don't have to 3bet or fold, especially when closer to the btn". Sooo many players study or hear "You MUST 3bet or fold " and Stick to such theories, NEVER adapting to the table dynamics, just playing like a straight up robot. To each, their own. Also, the 2 cold callers out the blinds, I've learned MANY players have NEVER studied, even and more particular the older crowd. They don't see it as "Oh wow, he 3bet, his range must be top heavy or I'm def behind here". They see it as a BIG POT BREWING, and they want in. Everyone loves to scoop a big pot. That's all. Almost EVERYONE plays different and sees the game differently.
I only ever heard 3 bet or fold from the SB and maybe in absurdly squeeze happy games. And even then, if the game is that squeeze happy, you just throw some good shit in your flatting range and you get to print money against their weaker hands squeezing you.
Calling in raked games just guarantees you lose money to the house. The rake forces you to 3b or fold WAY more than the table dynamics do.
so: you're saying that V (KJ) called 3-bet pfr was a correct play.
Very interesting hand. Thanks
what I have learned from your videos is that I have often been too happy just to win a hand. Recently, thin value bets have added to my profits. Thanks.
I much prefer a flop raise to deny equity to KQ type hands (and get value from KJ/QJ, with the intention of barrelling turn and checking back river on most runouts).
Thin value bet on the river is good although it would be horrible to get check-raise bluffed off the hand by QT
Someone cold calling Q10 is unlikely to turn their hand into a bluff. They’ll just chase their draw and bash the table when they don’t hit their draw
I like going for value on the river vs KJ, QJ, and JT
The biggest thing CLP has taught me is the ability to bet for think value AND the ability to bet fold. At low stakes (1/3 & 2/5) people are just not finding check raise bluffs, hardly ever, in bigger pots.
I've valued owned myself a couple times in recent months, and am oddly happy with that, since it means I'm going thinner overall.
If you don't ever get value owned you're just not value betting enough
how can you x/r bluff anyone while they: 1) don't bet with poor hands and 2) never fold to a raise holding shallow stacks! x/r river bluff in a small stake is just road to your stack suicide.
I think we should raise flop here. It's already a fishy, off-the-rails situation with the blinds calling hero's 3B. I can't credit the main V for a better pair when he over-calls. Raise this flop, take back the betting lead, hopefully fold out two opponents, get heads up, barrel turn, and v-bet river. If V can beat TPTK, he'll 3B over hero's flop raise. V probably isn't betting this small on the flop with better than AJ, but BB could be calling with QT.
Would a River jam be considered a merge?
14:09 "If I bet 300 here".... OK agree, but what if you get jammed on? Is this a bet fold, or a bet call? I would think bet fold ??
I think you have to raise this flop. The problem is that if you call, and one or both of the blinds call, you have no idea where you're at in the hand (which is what happens). If you make a small raise, to like $150, you force the blinds to expose the strength of their hands; as well as cleaning up equity. You also take control of the hand. You can then bet the turn, and even if you check back the river you probably wind up with more profit.
You don’t raise to “find out where you’re at”
@@TargetDown2
That's a shame for you.
What I mean is, you don't bet for value when you're behind. You don't check for odds when you're ahead.
You won't always know even when you suspect, until you bet.
We bet for value when we THINK we are ahead. We bet as a bluff when we want our opponent to think we are ahead.
We may not bet entirely for information but that cannot be excluded as a benefit of betting.
What most people really mean is they are testing for landmines. Especially in a multi way pot where someone can slow play two pair, a set or just want a free draw.
You hold AA 500 BB deep. Flop comes AKK after a three bet.
Do you bet for value?
You bet and the opponent raises to all in? Do you call? You found out your either way ahead or way behind.
AK might play this way. Any K might and only KK beats you.
You may not have bet to find out where you are but you found out anyway.
The truth is, we all bet to find out. Sometimes we continue to believe we are ahead, sometimes we realize we are probably not ahead. It may not be the entire purpose of betting but it is without any doubt a very big reason.
When someone says " don't bet to find out where you are". They mean don't do it just for that reason often.
Sometimes you take a stab, make a squeeze, or bet because you think you are good. But they are all bets made early/cheaply to gather information. To judge your opponents strength by his reaction.
Typically we can check oop and get the desired information based upon the action of others. Other times we cannot count on the actions of others so we bet to get a reaction.
It's all information that helps us determine where we are.
If everyone just checks we never know until the river where we are. If everyone bets we are just playing bluffers bingo.
If you don't know what to expect or what to make of reactions, probably best not to bet. Probably best not to play poker, unless it's at my table.
@@TargetDown2Raising to "Find out where your at" is the conclusion of what you're actually doing. Your raising to protect your equity, to charge people to draw, and to narrow the field. Finding out where you're at is just the end result.
If I somehow played 10-Q suited in the blind. And the MP player bet out and the initial 3 bettor raised him small. I would reraise big in my draw. Couple reasons being people don’t usually lead out sets into the pre flop raiser , and people don’t raise bets with sets 2nd to act in a multi-way pot ( obv sometimes, but not often ) and also I would reek of trip nines , and possibly even trip 5s-Js. Plus if I’m playing 10-Qsuit. I’m also playing J-9 suit as well for two pair. So if you are raising to find out where you are at. Be prepared to call , cause I’m raising my draw there all day from the blinds if it’s played like that
@@charlesnewborn3760 and _eschootziscrs_ ..., why have you jumped on this guy all over?
_TargetDown_ is right: the way the OP put his comment was that _"finding where he is"_ was the main point of raising. And that is incorrect play. Particularly in this hand context. Raising could be a disastrous play. Easily!
In a Multiway pot, where Original raiser donks the flop into a pf 3-bettor - top pair is a weak hand!! So, why bother paying expensive just to find where you're at while you're very likely on a losing side!! (This is not a question).Unless you have some kind of hand reading opponent's weak; (which H clearly had not). Even then, there is no need to pay to know something you already know!
Obviously, the table was loose, full of fish. So, any scenario is possible, including being owned right at the flop.
One of the best hand reviews ever. 👌🏼
I disagree entirely. This should not have been a hand review at all.
A small raise on the flop would have been the more profitable option. Atleast two continues to the turn with a call.
I love Bart’s videos… Thank you, Bart Hanson!
But… Bart seems to often give the villains ( in low limit) too much credit for thinking!
But not this time!
This is a quite obvious bet fold on the river. I'm not sure why this hand was taken by Bart at all.
Maybe I’m a sucker but I’m definitely value betting the river
Raising flop small seems good gets guys behind to fold KQ KTs
In a raked game this is absolutely 3b or fold.
I mean it kind of feels like QQ. I just don't see what worse hand would call you.
Everything gets compounded when the hands go multiple ways. If I was in The blinds it be funny if he donked the river because he's the only one that can have a straight most the time
If caller does bet 300, does he fold to an all in for 460$ more when the pots 1400$?
I don't see how he could. I think the bet sizing here is just for value, and somewhat assumes V is going to fold to a bigger bet, and never raise here, even though we're pot committed if he does. That's why it's thin value.
Obviously. Don't ask questions you know the answer to. It's a waste of time for everyone.
@@stevenundisclosed6091 so you wasted time commenting on this, instead of just scrolling on by like a normal person. well done buddy
I folded pre flop
Plot twist: Shaun Deeb is the caller
How can the villain not 4! There?
Bet tiny IP on the river and try to get one of them to spazz
230
Is it just me or has donk betting become a thing? I've seen and heard about it more over the past 2-3 months than I have the past 2-3 years. Is it tied to solvers or did I miss something?
People have been donk betting live games for ever. 99% of the time it's a sign of a bad player, hence the term, but you can definitely do it profitably in some situations.
@@Jermo484 , maybe I'm just noticing it a lot more. It feels like bad players are trying to be strategic when they do it and treating it like a blocker bet. Could be that I'm just giving them too much credit for even thinking they might be intentional with a donk bet strategy.
I've been noticing it more recently, mostly from bad players. It's usually a show of strength, but here and there I've seen it done as a bluff, which is super-weird and spewy.
@@1vailchris I've virtually never seen it done with a strong hand. It's almost always a draw or a weak pair.
@@Jermo484 A weak pair still beats no pair. I've seen it done with weak-ish holdings, but the players doing it have usually connected with the board in some way, and aren't typically good enough to fold to a raise. I've also seen it done with flopped trips, sets, 2P, etc - generally on low or mid-range connected boards, where the PFR is going to be weighted towards over-pairs or strong draws. They just want to take down the pot, or get value from non-believing opponents. Sometimes they're trying to give themselves a good price for their own draws, but it's rarely just a pure bluff with air.
I would probably have folded turn here. Two callers behind is very fishy, including the donk, top top almost cannot be good here, even on a brick river.
The bet by villain on the turn is insane. KJ is just never good there.
I agree and yet if he was playing @TomRauhe it would have won him the pot. That would be a terrible turn fold against weak players, though.
@@Jermo484 I am assuming halfway sensible folks here. It would be tight, but there's just way better spots ahead than massively out of position with two callers behind that could do or have whatever with their slowrolls.
@@TomRauhe why would you assume such a thing of people cold calling three bets out of the blinds at 2/5?
@@Jermo484 massively Player dependant, I agree. If I have been with the guys at the table for two hours and they just splash around, AJ can easily be good.
A bet on the river is wayyyyyyy too thin
Idk to me this is SUCH a weak check back at the end, approaching blunder territory if not just a big mistake. In so many of these live games the players will let you know if they have a big hand and everyone showed no signs of that here. Yuck
To be fair, they are moronic about slowplaying sometimes. I've absolutely seen people play 55 or even 99 the way SB did here and then only ever spring the trap on the river, but it would also just be a trivially easy fold if he did check-raise river here. That said, yes, the MP guy never has a big hand here.
@@Jermo484 oh yeah the person without the betting lead who knows. But yeah I agree MP is NEVER checking a big hand after bet bet. Definitely trickier cause multi way, but just cause you don’t ALWAYS have a best hand is not an excuse to not bet. Just a nit rationalizing their play. If you never value own yourself, you aren’t value betting enough
You guys are surprised that both blinds called the three bet preflop and called the donk lead turn bet?? Welcome to every 2-5,1,3 game ive ever played. Thats why i get frustrated with GTO analysis because it never carries much weight when you have 80-90% recs that like lighting money on fire. These people arent thinking rationally.
A robot playing GTO against them would still make money. The lessons you learn are absolutely still valuable, you just have to use them with exploits in mind.
@@Jermo484 Maybe heads up or three handed but i dont see a robot beating 8 donks that have no clue. I could be wrong but i dont see it.
You cant exploit and play gto at the same time. They are polar opposites. You have to play exploitive to beat these games
@@DonTrump-sv1si they're absolutely not polar opposites. They work in tandem.
@@Jermo484 No technically youre not using gto. Youre exploiting, meaning youre adjusting from gto strategy.
@@DonTrump-sv1si um, no. You can mix them. That's literally what exploits are. Deviating from mathematically optimal to get even more EV.
After the flop with top/top I am raising MP to $250
Every time, 4 ways with one pair? Please provide your GPS coordinates the next time you play. Just so everyone can say hi to you, and tell you how right you are, of course.
@@EfficientRVeri have no clue why anyone would just call unless you’re afraid of a set or two pair Jacks and nines. Sets and two pair will re-raise or just call and check the turn. Bart even agreed that a raise after the flop is a choice that he has no problem with. I play at the Rivers Casino in Portsmouth, VA. Please look me up!
200$ on the river was my thought
river decision is not about whether you have the best hand but if you get called by worse
seems like a very reasonable xb imo
If you get called by worse didn't you have the best hand 😂 wtf
@@Moneyovertruthdepending on sizing, a value bet might only get called by 2 pair+ (called by better) but fold out KJ or QJ (not get called by worse). I think @robertmoellee6871 is right. Plus depending on player pool, you might get blown off your showdown value by someone who tries to run a bluff with a missed draw or turn JT into a bluff after you value bet
I disagree. I think the river decision also includes whether or not MP is nitty enough to check-call with an overpair instead of going for three streets of value.
@@Moneyovertruththe point is, even if you have the best hand 80% of the time, if all of the hands in that 80% would fold to a bet then you can’t bet.
I think this is such a hard value bet to find at the end, would take a very high level player to find it.
Well, this was odd. Not only in the sense that it was strangely played. I'm often one that finds it hard to go for thin value on rivers as Bart teaches, but here I'm totally on board. I'm betting this river 100% of the time.
For sure. I find it insanely hard to believe the SB is going check call twice multiway with 55 or J9 suited if he even ever has them and there's just no chance the MP player is checking thick value on a runout like this after SB has already checked after betting flop and turn. That would be absolute insanity.
What's the big mistake?
Checking the river
Naming a town Schenectady
"He has a private game". Insane how people have no problem ratting out guys on the internet for possible felonies.
this seems more like $1/2 or even $0.5/1 to me.
Before I finish the video, donk bettor NEVER has QQ here. For Hero to think this is absolutely illogical. No reraise preflop+donk bet+tiny bet turn+Check river. Are you absolutely insane? His range is super capped at AJ,KJ,QJ,J10, any combination of open ended, OR TT, OR 9x. The whole purpose of his donk bet is to see where he's at and to see if you have AIR like AK/AQ/KQ. But its apparent with the tiny ass bet on the turn, he definitely has something but nothing in the realm of 2pair+. The give up on the river screams hes scared of the calls on the turn and is in check/call mode.
God I was fucking right. Poker is so fucking easy sometimes and people just LOVE to overthink things.
Fish and "scared money" players play exactly like that (V played) with pocket QQ in small stakes. You assuming V was a sound player? You're wrong, obviously. Unless I know V profile, I'd be worrying about being owned right at the flop! (QQ, JJ, 99)
@@pot_kivach160 Its 2-5. And you're not looking at the entire picture that I outlined. Any nutted hand like QQ or set is not DONK BETTING, then betting tiny, and then checking. The fish and scared momey are both betting MORE on the flop and if not the flop, the turn for sure. I dont think you actually play poker. I play and deal 8 hours a day. People have ranges, and their ranges get more obvious based on the actions and lines they take. This was like an open and shut case; Villian presented all the evidence of his holdings, and it was up to hero to solve the case.
Nobody, I repeat, NOBODY will 4-bet me light here. Why you might ask? Well if u 4-bet me light, i will take ur mother out for a nice seafood dinner and NEVER call her again. Plain and simple
Will never play at this place. They make everyone scan in with a players card to track them. But you don't have to scan in for the tables games. It is weird and creepy and unnecessary. If people want to for comps and high hands than fine. But it is creepy that they have all your info when you are there. Imagine being a visitor to area looking to have some fun and told you need to go wait in line for a card.
But it's cool that the wsop does it for tournaments?
Among the problems people like her have is that they deliberately mosrepresent the positions of those they disagree with. And people with common sense can see it. So, if you are lying to me about stuff i know...why would i listen to you about things i do not.
First